Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

“On the other hand, if we allow groups to evolve slowly and steadily through the natural process, the changes sought by the groups are not viewed in such a jarring matter. Allow time to pass, educate people and allow that education to take route”

So you feel as if homosexual’s should have to marriage and adoption on hold until hetro’s can slowly accept it?

“Generally, people are just now beginning to accept homosexuality as a subset of America.”

Isn’t that the problem though? Nobody HAS to accept homosexuality and they should not be asked or forced to.
They need only to respect the rights of others.

I’m with you on the meltdown, great work. I hope my pointing out the one section on gay marriage does not derail the route you were trying to go with it.
Its just a big sticking point issue with me that I cannot understand.

Matt~

I couldn’t agree with you more on your last paragraph!

I guess it depends on what their goal is? If a minorities goal is just to win a right…..then I guess they are succeeding!But winning acceptance will not be achieved through this, as soon as “people” feel forced upon, their guard goes up and that is how anger/hatred are born.

For example…most people know loving gay couples and are all for “their” union in marriage, then they turn on the T.V. and see this angry “mob” so to say, screaming and yelling about inequality (and lets face it, it is always the extremists of these groups) and people go running back to their holes! I sometimes feel they would get farther w/ the American people as a whole if they were quieter about it and let nature take it’s coarse so to say!
This also applies to blacks…..most people are for them rising straight to the top, but you give them a platform and they fill it w/ the likes of Farrakhan(sp)!?! Let’s not even get started on Jesse Jackson who IMO has set them back further than he has helped.
But, who am I to say, I like Condi Rice and we all know she is just an “Uncle Tom”! (What is up with that expression anyways? I never understood someone being upset about racism while degrading another of their same ethnicity)!

Kctim-
“Isn’t that the problem though? Nobody HAS to accept homosexuality and they should not be asked or forced to.
They need only to respect the rights of others”

I highly respect what you said and I agree fully with you. Who has the right to deny marriage to same sex couples, that isn’t fair they are in love just as much as straight couples. The problem today is that marriage doesn’t mean crap to anyone but when it comes to homosexual’s wanting to get married then that basically becomes a disgrace and quickly denied.. I personally feel as if it is BS.

A key example is the gay marriage debate. You ask anyone who knows well any gay couple and ask them if that couple should be allowed to wed, you will get a generally positive reaction. But carried to its logical extension for the entire group, you arrive at a different place. Generally, people are just now beginning to accept homosexuality as a subset of America. Overtime, there will come acceptance of gay marriage as a concept, just like interracial marriage was once prohibited. But by seeking immediate relief through the courts and the 14th Amendment, the multicultural, PC crazed insistence on equality now has led to a rending of society over an issue, which in the long run, is generally meaningless.

I think your logic fails, because while you correctly compare homosexual marriage and interracial marriage you fail to remember that interracial marriage *was* obtained by seeking immediate relief through the courts. Loving v Virginia was the culmination of such legal battles.

Multiculturalism has worked in the U.S. because we have had a free competition among ideas and practices. When immigrants brought valuable things to the U.S., they were copied. Look at the various styles of housing, food, architecture, literature etc. Conversely, when they had less than stellar things, they disappeared or didn’t spread. That is why you don’t hear much about Scottish food.

All this implies to duty to judge. Some things are acceptable; others not. Just because someone has a tradition, doesn’t mean anyone else has to respect it, except maybe out our courtesy in the short term. We become better as a society only through the process of adapting the best and getting rid of the worst.

There is also no need to celebrate differences. We are different. That is just true. Some differences are good; others not. Just being different is meaningless. Should a healthy man consider that being sick is a valid alternative?

Americans are tolerant people. That is one reason immigrants come from all over the world. Yes, economic opportunity is an important part of tolerance. But you have to assume that anyone who takes the trouble to come all the way to the U.S. much believe his prospects are better here than wherever he came from. Maybe one reason is the dominant culture of his homeland as compared to the U.S. Maybe there are things better left behind as well as thing better brought along.

BTW on the subject of gay marriage (which I support). Most immigrants would find the very idea anathema. Should we celebrate their ideas on the subject, or suggest they leave their ideas at home.

Hi everyone,

kctim, thanx for the good debate on the sheehan blog. I do appreciate being able to disagree without either of us getting angry at lashing out at the other…seriously, thanks

IMO No One has to accept homosexual lifestyles, or anything else culturally related. The constitution doesn’t guarantee acceptance nor does it intend to force acceptance on anybody. What it DOES do is to make it clear that we are ALL granted the same liberties. We can all practice whatever religion we choose, which means we can choose NOT to practice any religion at all. Nowhere does it guarantee us that our particular religion is the “right one” and because so, it takes precedence over all others. The constitution guarantees that we will not be allowed to enact laws that restrict a specific portion of the population from also exercising their freedoms and choices, no matter how immoral, or indecent others might believe it is. As long as my choices do not inflict harm to another, or as long as my choices do not interfere with you exercising your own choices, then you have no say so about it.

Matt Johnston,

You wrote:

Multiculturalism, the concept of celebrating ones heritage, provides outstanding benefits for society.

we have been forced, under the guise of multiculturalism, to expand our acknowledgement into outright celebration.

Multiculturalism, when taken to an extreme, forces the celebration of individual and group differences to the extent that we have forgotten to celebrate our Americanness.

Do you fail to see the absurdity of this point you were making? First of all, multiculturalism IS Americaness. Second, No one FORCES anyone else to celebrate ANYTHING!! If you do not like Black history month, MLK Day, Kwanza, Hannakah etc. etc. and do not choose to celebrate them, then DON’T!!
Go on about your business, make it just another day. But the rest of us will celebrate our asses off! That is the way it works. If I decide not to celebrate President’s day, Halloween or Easter, then I won’t. No one is forcing me to. But to think the rest of us must refrain from our jubilation, and only celebrate white, christian, male-oriented ocassions; well, that is in direct violation of the constitution. Why? Because it prohibits us from exercising our own FREEDOM to choose.

Traci,

This also applies to blacks…..most people are for them rising straight to the top, but you give them a platform and they fill it w/ the likes of Farrakhan(sp)!?!

Huh? Did you realize how racist this attitude was (or at least sounded) when you wrote this? I will give you the benefit of the doubt that it wasn’t meant to read how it actually does.

My point to this is simply if you don’t wanna play, then don’t. The rest of us will. I don’t have to accept your beliefs and you don’t have to accept mine. We just cannot declare either of our beliefs “the best” so they must rule over the others. Sorry, but it is not what the constitution says.

sassyliberal

sassyliberal -

Multiculturalism is not Americanness. If we are a melting pot, then a melting pot entails one culture, because everything melts into one. Not multiple cultures living under one union.

sassyliberal~

Do you realize that you just negated everything you just said w/ your kneejerk reaction to call me a racist? You were just saying that no one has to accept stuff and then you didn’t like the way my comment sounded and immediately jumped on it!
That is the point that I believe Matt was trying to make(and kctim)! How are people to believe that they are free to feel as they like when this is what they get?
I am by far a racist (not that I need to defend myself), but if I were, that is the point….people should not be shamed if they do not “celebrate” these things!
I am just trying to be helpful…if you want to be taken seriously than you have to do better than the extreme over the top leaders that a lot of these groups appoint as their spokes person!

Just b/c one person does not celebrate another person culture doesn’t mean in any way they are racist.
Just read out of the AP today that Texas (where I live) is now the 4th state to at least have 50% minorities most being hispanics. Now I feel that everyone has a little racism in them I don’t feel as if I am racist but yet I don’t believe that hispanics (b.c there are more) come into our country and not learn our language, there kids learn it so they can take care of things but I don’t see that is fair at all. More factory jobs are going to minorities cause they know they can get away with paying them barely nothing b/c to them it is enough to support their families back home while I basically consider them a freakin breading ground. That right there is all the racism that I have in me. Yes I admit it is harsh and it hurts thinking about it but it really freakin makes me mad. Say you get in a car wreck with someone you want to talk to them about it heck you can’t cause they don’t even speak english, doesn’t seem very fair to me. A research team in San Antonio said by 2025 50% on the US will be minorities. They are coming over here taking advantage of the freedom but don’t even learn our language makes me mad..

Okay another thing about Homos and slowly being accepted and to be patient and all that.. Regardless if they are accepted are not it’s the bible beaters that feel it’s morally wrong for the same sex to get married so far they have managed to keep getting a bill denied, I think it’s messed up Religion should not take part in making a decision for other people. It’s okay to have your own beliefs but aren’t we a free country should we all be treated equally.

Ditto SASS
“If you do not like Black history month, MLK Day, Kwanza, Hannakah etc. etc. and do not choose to celebrate them, then DON’T!!”

I think that is some of Matts point. In order to not celebrate them, we are forced to jump through hoops or just give up and let them teach it.
You should have seen the mess I went through telling my kids school that they would not be doing anything if relation to kwanzaa or hannakah, sheesh.
Sometimes, people do not have the option to “just not do it.”

Sarah
“Regardless if they are accepted are not it’s the bible beaters that feel it’s morally wrong for the same sex to get married”

Thanks for saying bible beaters and not right wing nuts or something.
This issue definetly crosses party lines, big time.

Traci
Your first post was GREAT !!!

isn’t this suppose to be a free country where we are all treated equally well why are gays treated equally I don’t feel it’s morally wrong and no one should judge another if they want to marry or adopt just b/c they are the same sex they should have ever right as hetro’s have. that is my opinion they shouldn’t be a outcast b/c they way they feel love is love and people should respect that, they don’t have to but they should.

Hi All:

I have just These 2 statements to make and one question to ask.

First the question. What can gays/lesbians do to damage marriage as an institution, that Straights Have not done already?

Now my two statements:

Any one can be a parent, don’t take no special skills and unlike driving, you don’t take a test or receive a special license. You are free to raise your child in hate-filled environments, with hate filled literature all around.

As for English Being the Official Language…Get a grip. It’s not now, should not be in the future, nor has it been in the past. I hope it remains so for many more years to come.

Just Passing Gas,

As Always,
Wayne

Hey Mike T.
Then maybe you should look around, we are a multi-cultured society. And the better off we are for it.

“sassyliberal -

Multiculturalism is not Americanness. If we are a melting pot, then a melting pot entails one culture, because everything melts into one. Not multiple cultures living under one union.”

Posted by: Mike T. at August 11, 2005 05:24 PM

As Always,
Wayne

I did not say it should be the official language but these border jumpers want to come over here and take advantage of what the US has to offer but doesn’t take the time to learn our language, so no I don’t need to get a grip.
Wayne
As far as your view on gay/lesbians and marriage I agree.

Why should they be denied rights that straight people get just b/c of their sexual preference they are just as capable to marriage and raising kids. It’s morally wrong to deny them that right.

Sassy,

“The constitution guarantees that we will not be allowed to enact laws that restrict a specific portion of the population from also exercising their freedoms and choices, no matter how immoral, or indecent others might believe it is. As long as my choices do not inflict harm to another, or as long as my choices do not interfere with you exercising your own choices, then you have no say so about it.”

Then can you please explain why I can’t rida a motorcycle without a helmet, or drive a car without seatbelts, or smoke marijuana, or own an automatic rifle, or a multitude of other restraints the Federal, State, and local Governments put restrictions on?

we as a culture, the US culture, has become increasingly voyueristic and obsessed with what is goin on in our neighbor’s homes…

all the reality television, inside scoops about disfunctional celebreties and their publicity marriages,

everyone is obsessed with what OTHER people are doing.

we need to get back to the basics. you don’t need to agree with what your neighbor does, but, you don’t set the rules there so you don’t get to condemn his/her own rules.

i’ve got too much life to live.

time is short….play nice and leave eachother alone.

Hi Matt,

The problem is that the fire has been removed from under the melting pot. The trials and tribulations early immigrants went through to become Americans forged a united heritage. You had to learn english, there was no welfare, you had to achieve at the same rate as everyone else, no bars were lowered, no headstarts offered. Rather than a tasty simmering stew we now have a pot full of uncooked chunks of ethnic heritages that barely communicate with each other.

I’m honestly not sure what’s going on here in the red column - but I’m fairly disturbed.

The notion that ‘multiculturalism’ is some how to blame to for the problems facing this, or any country, is bizarrely asinine. The idea that this is the first time America has had immigrant populations who remain relatively separate is silly too. Take a walk around New York or New Jersey sometime. You’ll find the historic Irish, German, Jewish, Cuban, Puerto Rican and of course: Black, neighborhoods. All of these cultures came to the US, were treated as outsiders, created their own communities, and were eventually integrated into American culture (To varying degrees of course.), ultimately making the rich quilt that we all value today. But there was a time when each of these was nearly completely cut off from the rest of American society, and often from each other. It’s easy to forget a time when the Irish were considered ‘the problem’. An old Jewish joke: do you know what they do with all the foreskin from circumcisions? Make an Irish Priest.

Don’t think the history of America is all ‘the noble struggle’. It was just as ugly then as it is now, and will be in the future.

Societal integration comes from within. American culture didn’t just spring to life fully formed one day. It’s the result of Americans including the cultures of the immigrants who came here. As soon as we choose to include Muslim, or any, culture in our own, that culture becomes integrated into ours and becomes part of our collective heritage.

Multiculturalism. Right. I was wondering what was wrong with America. All this time I thought it had something to do with wars of choice we badly screwed up. Or our much diminished rep on the global scene. Or a severely overpriced, underperforming healthcare system. Or maybe the fact our politicians are bought and paid for. Heck, silly me. I even thought our education system might be failing us. Nice to know it’s all about muliculturism. What a relief.

We are a nation of immigrants. Every single one of us is either an immigrant or the child of an immigrant. This nation’s greatness is based on immigration.

Matt Johnston,
You say that we should eschew multiculturalism and force everyone to “become American”, whatever the hell THAT means.

So when are you going to start learning to speak Lakota, or some other native American language? After all, they were here first. Why didn’t your ancestors have to adapt to the culture of those that were already here?

Sassyliberal:

Second, No one FORCES anyone else to celebrate ANYTHING!! If you do not like Black history month, MLK Day, Kwanza, Hannakah etc. etc. and do not choose to celebrate them, then DON’T!!

I would like to think this is true…but. I’m generally not a “slippery-slope” thinker, but when employers are forced to give paid days off for celebrating, or when government services are halted for celebrations, it has just gotten a little slipperier.

Please don’t misunderstand. I celebrate as many holidays, etc. as the next guy. But to say that no one is forced into it, or at least is not significantly inconvenienced or obstructed by others celebration, I don’t think is completely true.

Mike T,

Multiculturalism is not Americanness. If we are a melting pot, then a melting pot entails one culture, because everything melts into one. Not multiple cultures living under one union.

Sure it is! As Jack poijnted out, Just because someone of another culture joins us and brings many many different ideas and customs with them, doesn’t mean they all “melt” into the big pot and that they must be adapted by all. It simply means that we are ALL different. Multiculturalism does not necessarily mean melting pot. Melting pot is just a metaphor.

Traci,

I did not call you a racist, I simply pointed out I thought how you said what you said INDEED had a racist tone to it. Sorry you are blind to it. I still think so.

No, you do not have to defend yourself, I really don’t care if you are racist or not. You certainly are entitled to your opinion and like it or not I respect your right to to “choose” to exercize your freedom of “choice” to speak it.
If I were to have said something like, “you are a racist and you have no right to spew an ignorant one sided view and legislation should be passed to prevent you from it” or if I had said something like, “I don’t like what you say, it is wrong and we need to change the way things are here so I don’t have to listen to you say it,” THEN AND ONLY THEN would I have contradicted my message. I simply pointed out that to me, the tone of your message sounded racist to me. I never condemned you for it.
also:

if you want to be taken seriously than you have to do better than the extreme over the top leaders that a lot of these groups appoint as their spokes person!

Sarah,

Just b/c one person does not celebrate another person culture doesn’t mean in any way they are racist.

I certainly never said Traci’s post sounded racist because she was simply choosing not to celebrate another person’s culture.
But c’mon,:

This also applies to blacks…..most people are for them rising straight to the top, but you give them a platform and they fill it w/ the likes of Farrakhan(sp)!?!

kctim,

You should have seen the mess I went through telling my kids school that they would not be doing anything if relation to kwanzaa or hannakah, sheesh. Sometimes, people do not have the option to “just not do it.”

I’m sorry, but simply choosing not to celebrate, (which IS as simple as that) does not mean you have the right to insist other cultures simply do not exist or that yours is so superior that it supercedes all others. It is MORE than fine to believe it yourself and to teach your children what you think is best, but to try to insist that the rest of us adopt that belief is unconstitutional. I may not be wording my sentiment correctly either, (Traci) but all I am trying to say is like it or not, the constitution makes it clear that we cannot enact legislation to prohibit you, me or anyone else from our celebrations.
Believe me, I do get your point on the difficulty of trying to teach your children one thng, when something else is all around them. IMO (yeah, I realize it is only one opinion) It is better to take it one thng at a time and sit down and answer their questions. There are sure to be many. Explain why you embrace the culture and religion that you do and why you believe it to be the true way.

As we have all seen on this blog alone, no matter what subject, there is ALWAYS going to be multiple views on it. So we can’t expect our children to only be taught ONE view…they’re kids they will always question…even in home schooling, etc.. they want to know Why?
sassyliberal

Intially, the 14th Amendment ensured that procedurally, each person was treated the same, despite race, socioeconomic status or origin, everyone was the same in the eyes of the law.

Just curious: How do you explain Jim Crow laws and the fact that the Supreme Court upheld them for many decades?

Sassylib
I’m not talking about celebrating them, I’m talking about teaching them.
I’m talking about trying to give failing grades to those who do not participate in the “celebration.”

Choosing NOT to celebrate IS easy, as you said.
Telling your employer, teachers, principles and such, that you will not participate in any of it because it means nothing to you, is not.

tomd.

Then can you please explain why I can’t rida a motorcycle without a helmet, or drive a car without seatbelts, or smoke marijuana, or own an automatic rifle, or a multitude of other restraints the Federal, State, and local Governments put restrictions on?

Those laws meane ANY motercycle rider or ANY auto driver. It is not like only Gay rider must wear helmets or not like only Catholics can own automatic rifles…get it?

sassyliberal

How many cities in this country have St Patrick Day parades? Isn’t that just another way of celebrating WHITE EUROPEAN ethnicity? What about the big Eastern European festivals in the upper Midwest? Aren’t those celebrations of WHITE EUROPEAN ethnicity? In the part of the country where I live, there are numerous Scandinavian festivals. Aren’t those celebrations of WHITE EUROPEAN ethnicity? What about Columbus Day? Isn’t that a celebration of WHITE, EUROPEAN ethnicity?

So if we celebrate WHITE EUROPEAN ethnicity so much, what’s wrong with celebrating OTHER ethnicities?

IMHO, opposition to “multiculturalism” is at best xenophbia, and at worst a subtle form of racism.

ElliotBay,

“How many cities in this country have St Patrick Day parades? Isn’t that just another way of celebrating WHITE EUROPEAN ethnicity? What about the big Eastern European festivals in the upper Midwest? Aren’t those celebrations of WHITE EUROPEAN ethnicity?”

Sorry that I have to explain this, but those festivals are about getting drunk. If you could come up with an ethnic festival where they serve alcohol, I am sure that they would be readily accepted.

kctim,

I do understand that. It certainly not right to try to give a gfailing grade because of non-participation in any specific cultural event. In that case I believe your constitutional rights are being violated and I would fight just as hard to protect them as I fight to protect others. Thanks, kctim.

ElliotBay,

Right on! on ALL of your comments! sassyliberal

Sassyliberal~

The point I was making was that you felt the need to let me know that my wording was not PC. Which in essense is a slap on the hand so to say.

WHY?

Because, it is not socially acceptable for someone to voice their opinion in opposition of minorities.

Have all the multicultural celebrations that you want……but the flipside to that is close a deaf ear to the things you don’t like. It is a notion cut from the same cloth, asking someone to examine their words and how they sound without realizing that they feel the same way about the so called “celebrations”.

Saying you’re not calling me a racist and continuing to hammer home to other posters that I sound racist is an oxymoron.

Traci,
I will say it again. I did not call you a racist. I DID, and still DO feel your post sounded racist. I also respect your right to say it any way you choose. I fully expected you to comment on my postings/responses, BECAUSE you disagree.(it’s OK to disagree) I guess at this point I am just trying to point out that when you say:

sometimes feel they would get farther w/ the American people as a whole if they were quieter about it and let nature take it’s coarse…

and the fact that you certainly feel justified in NOT being quieter about the injustice you feel heaped upon you by my comments, is exactly the same thing. I totally expected a backlash (happily, it was MUCH milder than I anticipated I admit) on my comments. But, If I am to have the freedom and liberty to speak my own mind, then you and Everyone else (including “they”)have the same right and you, me and “they” are just being hypocritical if we expect any difference. I certainly am not trying to tell you how you feel, just what I perceived to be your feelings from your words. Thanks for listening and not just shutting me out. I do honestly respect your opinions and look forward to more debate. Thanks, sassyliberal

Sassyliberal~

Actually, I’m appauled that you felt I would have given you a harsher backlash! Do I come off that way among these sites? The truth of the matter is I’m a 5’0” non-threatening brunette!:) I’ll admit some days are better than others, but I consider myself reasonable!

Matt,

“our society has proved adaptable to changing circumstances. But multiculturalism and political correctness inevitably leads to immediate, destructive confrontation and forced change. On the other hand, if we allow groups to evolve slowly and steadily through the natural process, the changes sought by the groups are not viewed in such a jarring matter.”

The Civil Rights movement was won in the courts. It was placed in the forefront of the American people because of marches, demonstrations and boycotts. The adaptable society you’re speaking about intimidated and killed alot of young men and women to prevent change and deny access to basic American rights. Many of the people who hate people of color are also those same people who hate gays.
If we had kept a low profile and waited it out I’d be writing on a colored only blog site, and you would not have the privilege of reading my Bush bashing lefty rantings.

Traci,

I totally expected a backlash (happily, it was MUCH milder than I anticipated I admit) on my comments.

Sorry, I guess it did seem like I was referring to you specifically, when I added this. I just kinda meant, I expected a much harsher backlash “in general.” I agree that you don’t come off as “threatening,” and I also think you put thought into your posts.

see ya in the next blog, Sass

Considering this is a supposed to be a opinion site for conservatives and Republicans I was very happy to read it. For the first time I actually read true American Conservative thoughts, not neo-puritan doublespeak. Congratulations to everyone here. God bless you all.

Someone wrote: Second, If I decide not to celebrate President’s day, Halloween or Easter, then I won’t. No one is forcing me to. But to think the rest of us must refrain from our jubilation, and only celebrate white, christian, male-oriented ocassions; well, that is in direct violation of the constitution. Why? Because it prohibits us from exercising our own FREEDOM to choose.

What about those of us who DO want to celebrate Christian occasions, such as Christmas without taking the “Christ” out of it? Why do we have to remove our Christmas displays that have our own “religious flavor”, because some other ethnic/religious groups don’t like it? Or someone who is an atheist? I’m not a racist person. I don’t follow the gay and lesbian way of thinking, but I do have friends and relatives who are gay/lesbian. It is not for me to judge. Live, Love and get along. There is but one judge. (my opinion only)

Linda

Of course, the Melting Pot, as described in the Consitution and Bill of Rights… oh, wait.

The melting pot is a pop social historian phrase. It means little. As the poster noted, remedy through the courts is what fixed numerous “popular” wrongs that targeted specific groups like blacks, Irish-Americans (how soon we forget), Italian-Americans, even some evangelicals.

There have always been groups that sought to maintain their identity within the melting pot. German Americans taught in German for years. The Amish maintain their traditions. Jews do not go all molten and become bell curve Methodists.

This is a strawman editorial longing Quayle-like for a time that never existed and attacking as new a battle that has ever been waged.

Linda-

How would you feel if your tax dollars went to support a monument to the Koran? As a Christian, I think you’d be pretty upset, right? So why do yuou think that a Muslim’s tax dollars should go to a Christian monument?

ElliotBay
This is a “just suppose” question I take. But, if on the other hand you are speaking of those Ten Commandments memorials, then you have to define what a Christian monument is. The Ten Commandment remembrances are, after all, historical documents.

Linda,

I am the one who wrote the paragraph you quoted. To answer, you are free ( as all of us are) to display any Christmas decorations, announcements, lights, or anything else on your own property, your church or even in your own business. Anyone offended by it or just plain doesn’t like it does not have to visit you , attend your church or frequent your business.

But the big arguement in the forefront now is the 10 commandments being displayed in state or federal buldings (courthouses, etc.) The reason for this is that I, or anyone else who may object, (I personally don’t care one way or another) can’t simply choose to take my business elsewhere. For example, it is the only place to register my car, or the only place to pay certain taxes. I must go there to apply for marriage or other licenses, etc. That is why certain displays are prohibited. Suppose you had to business at the courthouse and there is a larger than life sized statue of Buddah in the courtyard, or say the Quran or the Tara were displayed instead of the Bible or the 10 commandments. Most of the Christian faith would be up in arms over it.

I understand some business owners have chosen to make it policy to replace “Merry Christmas” with “Happy Holidays”. This has been a choice of the business owners, or Corporation BOD, because they do not want to lose the business of those who might choose to shop elsewhere. It is NOT because The courts have deemed it un-constitutional.
Personally, I agree there is too much made of this particular aspect of the issue. I am not offended by being wished Happy Hannakuh, Merry Christmas, or any other greeting. As long as I get good service, I am a happy camper.

sassyliberal

Anyone can be a parent? Pointing out the truth is racist? Lifesized statue of Buddah? Quran or Tara in the courtroom? Religious “flavor”? Any takers?

Yeah Tom:
Good Arguement…If you can believe the whole bit about the “Burning Bush and Moses bringing stone tablets down from the mountain. Personally I can not. And thank Whomever, I don’t Have to”.

As Always,
Wayne

Wayne
Considering what you said about Moses and the tablet, how do you reconcile where the ten commandments came from?

“I am perfectly of your mind, that measures of great Temper are necessary with the Germans: and am not without Apprehensions, that thro’ their indiscretion or Ours, or both, great disorders and inconveniences may one day arise among us; Those who come hither are generally of the most ignorant Stupid Sort of their own Nation, and as Ignorance is often attended with Credulity when Knavery would mislead it, and with Suspicion when Honesty would set it right; and as few of the English understand the German Language, and so cannot address them either from the Press or Pulpit, ‘tis almost impossible to remove any prejudices they once entertain. Their own Clergy have very little influence over the people; who seem to take an uncommon pleasure in abusing and discharging the Minister on every trivial occasion. Not being used to Liberty, they know not how to make a modest use of it; and as Kolben says of the young Hottentots, that they are not esteemed men till they have shewn their manhood by beating their mothers, so these seem to think themselves not free, till they can feel their liberty in abusing and insulting their Teachers. Thus they are under no restraint of Ecclesiastical Government; They behave, however, submissively enough at present to the Civil Government which I wish they may continue to do: For I remember when they modestly declined intermeddling in our Elections, but now they come in droves, and carry all before them, except in one or two Counties; Few of their children in the Country learn English; they import many Books from Germany; and of the six printing houses in the Province, two are entirely German, two half German half English, and but two entirely English; They have one German News-paper, and one half German. Advertisements intended to be general are now printed in Dutch and English; the Signs in our Streets have inscriptions in both languages, and in some places only German: They begin of late to make all their Bonds and other legal Writings in their own Language, which (though I think it ought not to be) are allowed good in our Courts, where the German Business so increases that there is continual need of Interpreters; and I suppose in a few years they will be also necessary in the Assembly, to tell one half of our Legislators what the other half say; In short unless the stream of their importation could be turned from this to other colonies, as you very judiciously propose, they will soon so out number us, that all the advantages we have will not in My Opinion be able to preserve our language, and even our Government will become precarious.” — Benjamin Franklin

Franklin was as wrong about the Germans then as you are about everyone else now.

Replace the term “melting pot” with the more accurate “American tapestry”, then join Hispanics, blacks, and Asians as they raise a glass of green beer on St. Patrick’s Day, stand along side them as they cheer on a Columbus Day Parade being led by the Knights of Columbus and the Sons of Italy, eat all the different sausages ending in “wurst” in a roaring Oktoberfest celebration, and by then, you’ll be ready for some Cinco de Mayo reveling.

Enjoy America and quit complaining about her.

By the way, using the term “melting pot” when talking about the American culture is highly inaccurate.

American tapestry, or even American quilt, is a far better decription, with people arriving from all corners of the world, settling in, and adding their own customs, traditions, and beliefs to the existing cultural landscape.

Our nation has grown as a result of each group of immigrants leaving their imprint on this wonderful tapestry/quilt.

The fact is that the ideals and principles that are the underlying foundation of America grew out of White, European Culture. If this statement makes me a racist than it makes me a proud racist.
Diversity is a recipe for disaster. No group can survive when the emphasis is not on unity.
We are witnessing the destruction of America by Third World invaders who are certainly capable of enjoying the fruits of our labors but can they make the contribution that is necessary to strengthen the American Culture?

Tom,

You said “The Ten Commandment remembrances are, after all, historical documents.” Huh? Please define what you mean by “historical documents”.

ElliotBay
Historical documents? You don’t know what a historical document is? I will try to keep it simple. In this case the document was etched on stone. It was a list of laws that the people of the earth were to obey. They were laws that were for every day situations and cercumstances. The document was handed down from generation to generation and became a part of the foundation of modern society all around the earth, no matter what background was involved.

You what the funniest part of that statement is Duncan:

That it is you in fact who enjoy the fruits of their labor.

And yes, it does make you a racist. And also factually incorrect.

Enjoy your orange.

“The fact is that the ideals and principles that are the underlying foundation of America grew out of White, European Culture. If this statement makes me a racist than it makes me a proud racist.”

That’s not quite true duncan.

The ideas and principles that are the underlying foundation of America grew out of a complete rejection of the white, European culture that existed at the time.

The Founders wanted no kings, no nobility, no stranglehold by the Church.

Duncan,
Well, the economy of the America was significantly built on the labors of black, African slaves, so I wouldn’t worry about the ability of non-whites to “contribute” Also, all of those third world countries that are invading? (I’m assuming you mean the Latin American countries, unless you’re worried about the destruction of our culture by immigrants from Somalia or something). They’re called “latin” American countries for a reason. The language-European (spanish). The culture-Also European (again, spanish).
So I guess that the only difference between them and the white Europeans you prize so highly is that their skin is darker.

ElliotBay Historical documents? You don’t know what a historical document is? I will try to keep it simple. In this case the document was etched on stone. It was a list of laws that the people of the earth were to obey. They were laws that were for every day situations and cercumstances. The document was handed down from generation to generation and became a part of the foundation of modern society all around the earth, no matter what background was involved.

I think ElliottBay’s point was that from the point of view of a non-Christian; the beleif that Ten Commandments were probably made up by some person in the last 2-6 millenia. I could use the same argument you made to prove that the five pillars of Islam are not only religious principals but historical documents as well.

Exactly, Warren P., Thanks.

The Ten Commandments are “historical documents” because they’re old. So are things you can find in the Koran, in the Torah, or in countless other religious documents. So why should the government charge all the taxpayers, including those of other faiths to put up a Christian monument?

Tom:
Sorry that it has taken me so long to get back to you.

“Wayne Considering what you said about Moses and the tablet, how do you reconcile where the ten commandments came from?

Posted by: tom at August 14, 2005 06:18 AM”

“The following writings are simply my thoughts and in no way should they be used to question anyones faith or beliefs.”

Fair question tom, and not one I that I feel qualified to answer, I’d like to believe that they were just created by whoever as rules for Mankind to use as Guidance whilst living on this planet.
The Main gist of my post is this I must respect your right to coexist with me on this planet if I expect the same respect from you in return.

The question you should be asking is where are these historical documents “NOW”? You’d have thought that these tablets were important enough to be saved for future generations. And if that Doesn’t Satisfy your desire for knowledge, ask yourself this Question, Moses a pretty important guy don’t you think, Why doesn’t he have a Chapter in the great book also known as…The Bible? The Reason you believe these to be facts, Is because they have been drummed into you, I’ll bet from birth.

Also they are pretty good rules to live by, I dare anyone to say different:

No Killing or Stealing. Sounds like two very good rules don’t you think. I know I’d hate to be the victim of either.

Remembering the Sabbath and keep it holy. I personally do not have a problem with this. In my youth, Stores closed at 5:30pm Saturdays and did not open again until Monday morning. A true day of leisure was spent on Sundays. I don’t care what day it falls on, nor who’s day of worship it might be just so long as religion is kept out of it, I am all for getting 1 day of rest a week.

No taking the lord’s name in vain. I can live with that, I think we (as a society) could all use a good lesson in vocabulary and challenge any one to disagree with me.

Don’t sleep with your neighbors spouse. I can live with that one also, Hell if you cheat, you can’t demand that your spouse does not, can you? And what’s to prevent them from doing it to you?
Great rule.

If you look hard enough, you can find enough corellaries between all of the societies of the world in which you can find some thing related to the ten commandments to say that in every society or religion you can find between 5 or 10 rules to live by.

Oh well, Those are My thoughts on the matter, Hopefully I haven’t offended anyone too greatly or
wounded anyones feelings too harshly.

Just passing Gas,
As,Always,
Wayne