Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

First, put your title in the title bar. Second, bold print is a special effect. Use it sparingly. Third, triumphalism is the quickest way for the Republicans to fall on their faces. If you’re convinced you’re the best, you simply rest. The Republicans have rested too long, and done and supported some things that have been pretty objectionable to Americans out there. If you’re not careful, you could see the kind of backlash that landed us in trouble.

I’m personally glad to see the unions split.
Could this be the beginning of the end for these obsolete organizatons?
One can only hope.

Ron Brown-
Why are union’s obsolete? What’s your suggestion for how to get fair terms from management on employment?

They have split not to drift off into nothingness but to attempt a new method of fighting for workers rights as the AFL CIO has gotten too soft. And since when was collective bargining made obsolete? did i miss the memo?

I fixed the errant formatting in this post. Please be careful when formatting your posts, as incorrect formatting will result in your posts looking strange and unprofessional — and require more clean-up work for both David and I. If you need help understanding how to properly format a post, please email us and we’ll be happy to help you understand what is appropriate and what is not.

Krishan, unions have been in a state of demise NOT because unions are inherently bad or collective bargaining is inherently bad. They are in demise because of irresponsible and uneducated management which for decades ignored the absolute necessity for business competitiveness in the international marketplace.

It is sad, that the Union management failed to see the writing on the wall, because now, even many conservatives are concerned about the downscaling of worker wages and benefits as CEO, management and Shareholder profits and benefits skyrocket to unbelievable heights. Unions at one time, could have acted as a check and balance against this kind disparity, but they got themselves tagged as the enemy of jobs, and rightly so for so many decades, that they can’t even get a sympathetic audience in the general public anymore.

I have been a member of a very large union for almost 35 years & I have to agree with David on this one point;
?Krishan, unions have been in a state of demise NOT because unions are inherently bad or collective bargaining is inherently bad. They are in demise because of irresponsible and uneducated management which for decades ignored the absolute necessity for business competitiveness in the international marketplace.?

There is a level of corruption in the unions. When you begin to gather that many finances, problems begin. When you give them access to that much money, they are like children in a candy store. When someone like Sweeny gets into office, he cannot be removed unless it is by death or unless he resigns. I know they vote for leaders every four years, but it is a done deal. These union leaders are much like politicians, they love the power. I agree the problem is that union leaders are behind the times.

I will say many large companies pay their employees union scale with better benefits to keep them happy. Of course the purpose is to keep the unions out. An example is the foreign auto plants in america. The employees are actually happier & do better in non-union plants. Therefore, it?s impossible for a union to tell them how much they can help the worker.

There was a time when 1 in 5 workers were represented by a union. I believe the number is now 1 in 17. I might also say, 35 years ago everyone in our union was a democrat. I would say 25 to 30% of my union now votes republican, for a number of reasons.

I realize unions represent a cross of many types of employment of both men & women of all races. Union workers in factories are traditionally called blue-collar workers & most are rednecks. They like to drive pickup trucks, hunt & fish, but more importantly many of them in the Bible belt are Evangelical Christians & in the northern states many are catholic. They have changed their party affiliation to republican for several reasons:
1. The moral issue: anti-abortion, anti-gay, & they believe they have the right to raise their own children without government interference.
2. The gun rights issue.
3. The energy issue: they don?t want someone telling them to drive a gas saver. They believe we have the oil reserves & the democrats & environmentalist are blocking those reserves.
4. Lastly, their view of patriotism is waving the flag, supporting the troops, & supporting their government.

I know this will upset many of you. I will get all kinds of response from these words, but that is how I see it. As I said, I have been in a union for almost 35 years & I believe I have learned a few things about its members. I might also add, of the 25-30% who are republican, most are closet republicans. They actually get mad when their representatives tell them how to vote.

Perplexed

Unions are not obsolete yet,
but they have lost their purpose.

It’s not for politics, it’s for the worker.
It’s not for money, it’s for the worker.
It’s not for power, it’s for the worker.

It’s for the worker, so he/she can work.

So they can work in a decent environment.
So they can make a decent wage.
So their companies can remain profitable.
So their companies can remain competitive.

If unions can focus only on the worker and the companies that employ them.
They could have a place today.
However, I think it’s too late.

This will eventually take away a big part of the Democrat Party’s support structure.

That doesn’t follow at all.

In any case, I think this may be good for the unions The individual unions still have the power of collective bargaining, and this could be the wakeup call labor needs.

I think Stern has the right idea: get more workers into the unions - stop paying all the high-priced Washington lobbyists and start getting better pay for the members.

It’s about time.
My last experence with a union came obout while working on a government construction job in West Virginia. As a supervisor, I couldn’t even move materials from my truck to even get to my hard hat without a shop steward telling me to get other workers to unload the material because I was breaking union rules. It didn’t matter that my employees were 6 stories up and I couldn’t go get them without a hard hat. The job had to wait an hour while I waited for someone to show up and uncover my hat. Lets see….8 men at $25 per hour plus $35 per hour for me. $235 extra we had to add to the contract price because I couldn’t spend 5 minutes to get my hat. Could that be part of the problem of the unions?

tomd, sounds to me like as a supervisor, you should have known the rules, and never gotten out of your truck at a job site without your hard hat on your head. Sounds more like a problem with the supervisor than the union rules designed to maintain safety and to insure management does not replace union work with non union workers.

“This will eventually take away a big part of the Democrat Party’s support structure.”

“That doesn’t follow at all.”

Why not American Pundit?

I worked in a hospital that had unions for the nurses (me) and the housekeepers, but not the clerical staff. Unfortunately, there are bad nurses and housekeepers that can not be fired because of the unions and the hospital abuses the clerical staff because they are not unionized. I think the original intent of unions has been lost. A company can not be profitable if it must continue to pay bad employees. Benefits are expensive and unions keep wanting more and more without giving the company the right to keep good employees and get rid of the bad ones without jumping through hoops. Equity is what’s missing with the union I had to deal with. Unions should get out of politics and back to the business of protecting good employees.

The reason Democrats are having so much trouble resonating with voters is because there’s really no difference between Democrats and Republicans. The only true difference between Democrats and Republicans is how they’re perceived by voters. Republicans are simply winning the perception game at the moment, but it’s a cycle, and the scales will tip the other way, and Democrats will get their turn to screw things up too, as both Democrats and Republicans ignore our many pressing problems.

I once worked for a defense contractor. There were Union workers. One day, they filed a grievance against me for moving a PC computer from one location to another.
On another occassion, a union secretary filed a grievance against me for typing a letter mailed to a sub-contractor. She said that was her job. So, after that, I had to type the letter using a computer, print it on a printer, hand her the printed letter, and she would then re-type the letter on a type-writer.
On another occassion, I was testing a computer program, but the operator would not let me operate the computer interface. When the break bell rang, I asked if I could continue the test, and he said: “No. Not unless I wanted a grievance filed against me.”
People like that are what give Unions a bad name.

Dan,
I work in a very heavy populated union facility, not in the factory but in the offices. I know exactly what you are talking about. The one thing that I am realizing is that greivances are becoming less and less effective, not taken seriously by upper management. I don’t believe every grievance should be ignored, but at the same time, not every time something doesn’t work to your advantage should a grievance be filed. Unfortunately it has become the “boy who cried wolf” syndrome.

One other point, I was told something years ago and have never seen or heard anything that has disputed the statement: “Unions can only guarantee you one thing, that is that you will pay union dues.”

Perplexed,

You are 100% correct in your entire post, except I think the % of union Republicans is a lil higher.

I wonder how much longer the teachers union will survive?

Krishan Kumra,

How do you draw the conclusion that this will weaken or strengthen either party?

It sounds like the same old Republicans are better than Democrats nonsense we have endured since the 04 reelection of Bush.

Partisan politics only serves those who use it to deflect responsibility and avoid accountability. If you choose to celebrate poor leadership and incompitent government, have fun.

It would be more beneficial to this country if we look to unite both parties into a more effective and transparent government.

Expanding unions IMO (also I think there is substantial history of this happening) will have many results. Unfortunately I think most will be negative : (Among these are)

[1] More companies will relocate outside of this country

[2] Companies that stay and/or expand will move operations to the “right to work” states (most of these are deep South)

[3] Operating costs will escalate because most union contracts cause ridiculous work and staffing situations.

steve smith,

Yes, that’s partly a result of unions, but also the globalization is taking away the unions’ leverage.

You know who needs unions? Some of the third world countries that run sweat shops and use child labor.

Unions once served a good purpose in the U.S., but there’s no great need for them now in the U.S.
Espeically, since there are now more jobs in government, than all manufacturing jobs in the U.S.

d.a.n,

We agree. When was the last time that happened.

Don’t forget, the night shift of posters has yet to be heard from.

Oh, I’m not sure. I agree with most of what you write.
I know many here, like you, have been doing some research, so the process is very educational, and often leads me to new conclusions.
Yeah, the night posters may rip us a new one.
I’m not anti-union. Unions used to serve a good and useful purpose, but they have little or no leverage in the U.S. anymore, because corporations simply move somewhere else. To a new state with Right-To-Work laws, or to other countries where the labor is cheap, and there are few labor laws (if any).

Stephen,
Why are union’s obsolete?

I think if you’ll read all the posts after mine you’ll get the idea of why they’re obsolete.

What’s your suggestion for how to get fair terms from management on employment?

It depends on what you call fair terms. When a union sends it members out on strike for 3 weeks, then tells them to settle for a 21 cent raise, then raises their union dues $15 a week, I wouldn’t call that fair terms unless your the union president.
I admit that there are businesses that take advantage of their employees. But most try to treat their employees fairly. How to get the ones that don’t to start I wish I knew because they’re the ones that are giving the rest of us a bad reputation.
As a business owner I can tell you that it is cost efective to have a safe work place, equipment that is in proper working conditiion, and employees that are happy working for you.

“tomd, sounds to me like as a supervisor, you should have known the rules, and never gotten out of your truck at a job site without your hard hat on your head. Sounds more like a problem with the supervisor than the union rules designed to maintain safety and to insure management does not replace union work with non union workers.

Posted by David R. Remer at July 27, 2005 07:15”

David,
What how a union worker unloading my truck so I can get a hard hat out any safer than me getting it out myself? And since when is it the union’s job to fetch my personal property from my personal vehicle? It was a total waste of time designed to increase the cost of the job and needlessly employ someone at an exorbernant rate.
You are awful quick to jump in without knowing the situation. I am a contracting supervisor and usually work at non union and non hard hat jobs. This was the first day at the job and my hard hat was under tools in the back of the truck. It was MY responsibility to retrieve it and not the union’s. If safety was the issue,(it wasn’t) I would have been safer to get the hat myself rather than standing around exposed waiting for his guys to take a break and finally go to the 6th floor and get my employees to come down.

Stephen Daugherty wrote: What’s your suggestion for how to get fair terms from management on employment?

Don’t try. It doesn’t work. It’s a race to the bottom. There’s no way to stop it. Not as long as corporations can move from the U.S. to other countries where there is cheap labor, and then sell back to the people in the U.S. Only when there is near world-wide economic equilibrium, will corporations no longer have the option to simply move where the labor is cheaper. It’s not entirely a bad thing. The labor in those other countries may be cheap now, but it won’t stay that way. Wages will continue to rise in those other countries, as those nations grow wealthier, and we grow poorer.

One thing we should learn to reject are the crooked, lying, hypocritical politicians and lobbyists that pretend to care about the plight of American workers, but do exactly what the large corporations want them to do:

[X] Import millions of cheap third world wretches who will undermine the wage standards of American workers.
[X] Proceed to undermine the unions.
[X] Promote, under the guise of free trade, the rapid redistribution of wealth from the West to other third world countries where cheap labor exists.
[X] Undermine the family (not just here, but in the other countries too) so that the state and the corporations have obedient and loyal workers. Ask the Eastern Indians how they feel about all this globalization.
[X] Take advantage of women by paying them lower wages, again making the pool of labor larger and cheaper.
[X] promote the idea of wide-open borders that facilitates capital flight from rich high cost labor to poorer countries with cheap labor.

Beagle said:

You are 100% correct in your entire post, except I think the % of union Republicans is a lil higher.

If you look at the 2004 Exit Polls, union voters went heavily for Kerry. And, 9 months later, I suspect a majority who voted Bush, now regret it.

David is correct here, that more are escaping the mismanagement and corruption of the Hoffa era leadership, than switching party loyalty as the Red Column crowd is strongly spinning. Which begs the question - where are the clear signs these frustrated union members are running towards the Republicans?

And, if these pliable party-switchers are open to a pitch from the GOP, where is the support among their ranks for CAFTA?

tomd, even if you are used to non-union shops, as a supervisor contractor, you should either 1) be aware of OSHA regs, or 2) learn them instead of making ignorance everyone else’s fault.

Sorry, your tale to make a political point lacks a certain something…

dan
you wrote “[X] Promote, under the guise of free trade, the rapid redistribution of wealth from the West to other third world countries where cheap labor exists.” but thats 100% what the dems what with the tax code in america.

David,
What makes you think I don’t know OSHA regs? I was in a parking area when this happened and not the hard hat area. Now please tell me how that violates OSHA. And please tell me how the actions of the union made the job site any safer or any better for the customer, or anyone else except the union and the union worker who went to fetch my guys.
This was only the last association I had with unions. I was a member of CWA local 1304 for over 18 years. I understand how the union works and now I’m sitting back smiling at their decline. Kind of reminds me of the rapid decline of liberalism.

It is a little hard for me to believe tomd. You start out with anecdotal personal experience to support a global position on a political issue, giving sparing facts. When more detail is needed to make your anecdote pertinent or relevant, you add whatever details will work to support your argument. Perhaps the details you provided are true. But, this is the flaw of anecdotal personal evidence as a debate strategy, it lacks credibility as one keeps adding the necessary details to keep the anecdote relevant under scrutiny and skeptical questions.

David,
Every word is true. The job was appx 6 years ago in West Virginia at the new Byrd lock and dam north of Charlston, close to Point Pleasant, Ohio.

As far as a global position on a political issue, I was stating my experience with this particular union, period.

Your last post reminds me of the newest tool the libs use to block a nominee to the court, by asking for more and more papers and supporting documentation. You can accept it or not, I really don’t care.

Good afternoon Mr. Brown,

What causes unions? Now, ask yourself if unions are obsolete. Now say unions are obsolete. As long as there is management, there will be a need for unions. The first thing Adollf Hitler did upon assuming power in Germany was to toss union leaders in jail.Then he abolisehd unions. Do you suppose there may have been a reason for that? You may wake up now, Mr. Brown.

Hello again Mr. Brown,

Management will continue to make unions necessary. The landscape may change, but unions will be around for a long time, thanks to management.

To: Nwwghiaftc

Godwin’s law (also Godwin’s rule of Nazi analogies) is an adage in Internet culture that was originated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states that:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1 (i.e. certainty).
There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. In addition, it is considered poor form to invoke the law explicitly. Godwin’s law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. Many people understand Godwin’s law to mean this, although (as is clear from the statement of the law above) this is not the original formulation.

I’m not so sure that the split in the unions will have much effect on who the individual members will vote for. The union political contributions will continue to go to the candidates that best represent labor in government. It’s probably too early to tell who that will be. (I honestly don’t know)
I agree that unions once had more value than they do today. But the threat of labor organizing does result in better wages and working conditions across the board, in spite of the mismanagement and illegal dealings that have tainted union’s reputations.
IMO, this is much ado about nothing; politically speaking.