Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

Why are they doing it? To increase viewership?

Isn’t this the market at work?

Mike T,

Spanish Language has been on the SAP broadcast subcarrier for years. Virtualy every TV made in the last twenty years has this option.

Why make this a big deal?

Rocky -

I wrote -> Florida Today reports Central Florida “has experienced an increase in its Hispanic population.”

You are correct in your comment, HOWEVER, the reason they are doing this is because of the increase in Hispanic population..

I have spoken to a few relatives of mine who have come over here from countries where English is not spoken. Back in the day (the era they immigrated here), they had to FORCE themselves to master English because we were a MELTING POT (which means ONE LANGUAGE because we MELT).

Multiculturalism is transforming this nation into multiple cultures in the same society, I am claiming that it will eventually breed disunity and take off any social glue.

That’s why this is a big deal.

——-

mattLaw -

It may be the “market at work” but that does not mean there are not any ramifications from this.

Mike T

You made this claim:

One goal that multiculturalists harbor is to rip the United States apart by making it a multilingual country.

Can you back it up with some facts? If not, this sounds like another meaningless right-wing rant about an imaginary threat, and makes you look like you’re paranoid.

Furthermore, according to the CIA factbook, the following countries have multiple official languages: Afghanistan, Austria, Belgium, Burundi, Canada, Chad, Comoros, Djibouti, East Timor, Equatorial Guinea, Haiti, Hong Kong, India, Ireland, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Madagascar, Malta, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Paraguay, Philippines, Portugal, Rwanda, Switzerland, Tanzania, and Tunisia.

I guess I haven’t been keeping up. When did these 29 countries fall apart?

It may be the “market at work” but that does not mean there are not any ramifications from this.

As far as I’m concerned, young children who immigrate here (and of course those born here) should learn english.

I’m less concerned about older folks. One side of my family (up to and including my mother) are immigrants. Some of the older people still speak very little english, as their entire neighborhood was mainly of Italian heritage for most of their lives.

The more Spanish speakers in any given community the greater the “accomodation” as you put it to this consumer group. A natural outgrown of our free economy, and a healthy thing from the point of view of the station and the consumer alike.

The only thing negative about the overall availability of subtitles is that it takes away a valuable and inexpensive tool for learning language. Watching in the target language is a great way to really concentrate on listening and understanding a language spoken at real speed by native speakers. The subtitles are a terrible crutch. Also, you lose a lot of meaning in the translation of the subtitles.

We will probably see a lot more of this sort of thing in any event because of the great demand.

-Monica

America began multi-lingual. It was a few Europeans who learned native American languages that allowed the colonies to survive. The early colonialists did not know about maize, or how to grow it, and the fur trade with the help of Indian language were able to expand our frontiers along with the armies. And how does one conduct a treaty without learning the native languages. Then of course, this country had French in the North and deep south, and Spanish in the SouthWest. Not all of the early colonialists were English speaking, France and Spain had sent colonialists here too.

As long as America has been an a melting pot, it has been multi-lingual. Check out the history of multi-lingual barrios in NY, or ChinaTown in San Francisco. And AMerica has hung together just fine through a couple centuries of multi-lingualism.

Mike T’s fears come from the same place Mulatoist fears came from in the 1960’s. We have a large number of Mulato Americans now and it hasn’t harmed our nation at all. We had a number of Mulato Amerians in the 1960’s created by the some of the very same white males who feared Mulatoism, not to mention their fathers and grandfathers.

Canada is multi-lingual, and they get along just fine these days, now that they have tried the case and decided.

If you moved to a Spanish speaking country you would have to learn their language to communicate with the people there. So whats wrong with making then learn OUR language? Why should I have learn theirs?

David -

Come on, the settlers all spoke English on the Mayflower and at Jamestown. The Declaration of Independence was written in English. Our justice system is also based from off of Great Britain’s. We are in a sense, basing only on our dominant culture, a child of Britain. The United States of America did NOT being multi-lingual but with ENGLISH as the dominant language. I realize other European colonial powers DID colonialize areas on America like you said. I am talking about the USA not the land mass AMERICA.

I am not fearing ANY ethnicity. I am just pointing out that ramifications can and will arise by not having immigrants assimilate as they once had. I pointed out too that Canada has had tension before in the past (Quebec) because of language issues.

If you moved to a Spanish speaking country you would have to learn their language to communicate with the people there. So whats wrong with making then learn OUR language? Why should I have learn theirs?

You’re being ridiculous. Since when have been you expected to “learn their language?”

Mike, I am going to have to give you credibility in your post. When my grandmother came over to the United States from France she told me she HAD to learn English to be successful in the United States. Just as Ron Brown commented, there is NOTHING wrong with making these immigrants (from Spanish speaking countries) learn English. All the previous immigration waves have had to do this. Political correctness rules the day, and therefore it is more of a challenge to assimilate without being seen as “intolerant” and “offensive” and “bigoted”.

To be even more honest, I am outraged that WKMG is giving into the ethnic lobby.

English is our language in the USA, like it or leave it.

Ron Brown-
You don’t have to learn anyone else’s language. Nobody is forcing you to do anything.

But according to Mike T:

A stable country cannot have two or more mainstream languages without the side-effect of disunity.

James Chappelear-
I thought that appealing to the widest possible audience in order to increase one’s profits was one of the basic premises of a free market. Since when did capitalism become “giving into the ethnic lobby”?

Mike, I am going to have to give you credibility in your post. When my grandmother came over to the United States from France she told me she HAD to learn English to be successful in the United States. Just as Ron Brown commented, there is NOTHING wrong with making these immigrants (from Spanish speaking countries) learn English. All the previous immigration waves have had to do this. Political correctness rules the day, and therefore it is more of a challenge to assimilate without being seen as “intolerant” and “offensive” and “bigoted”.

There have been areas of cities throughout the country where neighborhoods often overwhelmingly speak in a native tongue. This is nothing new, and claiming that every single immigrant until recently ‘had’ to learn english simply isn’t true. My grandparents, until the day they died, spoke some english but always italian at home. I have a great uncle who is very old and doesn’t not speak any english.

To be even more honest, I am outraged that WKMG is giving into the ethnic lobby.

Do you have any evidence that this was the result of a lobbying effort?

English is our language in the USA, like it or leave it.

I don’t believe we have a ‘national language,’ by law. Even if we did, complaining about a television program making the decision to use subtitles is silly.

Tempest..meet teapot.

Here in my locality we have the local morning news translated in sign language. It has been for years. But of course you don’t see conservatives blathering on about why those lazy deaf people don’t just learn to lipread or use the subtitles provided for the deaf. They save that for those who emigrate here.

In my view this goes much deeper than a devotion to English. This is about keeping nonEnglish speakers from understanding what’s going on in the news. It’s much easier to ply people when they’re in a position of ignorance.

Mike T said: “I am not fearing ANY ethnicity. I am just pointing out that ramifications can and will arise by not having immigrants assimilate as they once had. I pointed out too that Canada has had tension before in the past (Quebec) because of language issues.”

Mike, speaking English has never been a requirement for immigration. Thus no force has ever been exerted on immigrants to learn English. And yet, with all of these centuries of immigration, we are still an English speaking nation.

Your fears are unwarranted. The children of immigrants will learn English, it is hardwired into their brains, even if another language is spoken at home, they will learn English from their playmates, nannies, and the schools. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Ron Brown, no one ever said you had to learn their langugage. Get REAL!

Carla~

How is ecouraging people to LEARN the language any way interpreted w/ trying to keep them in a “position of ignorance”? The key word being “learn” is a big clue! Are you suggesting that this is an unreachable goal? Maybe that suggests that you think they are to “stupid” to achieve this?

Ron Brown-
You don’t have to learn anyone else’s language. Nobody is forcing you to do anything.
Ron Brown, no one ever said you had to learn their langugage. Get REAL

The Hispanics are telling me I have to learn their language.

The Hispanics are telling me I have to learn their language.

Where? How? The fact that you failed to elaborate yet again suggests that you don’t really have any way to back this up…

ElliottBay wrote:

Furthermore, according to the CIA factbook, the following countries have multiple official languages: Afghanistan, Austria, Belgium, Burundi, Canada, Chad, Comoros, Djibouti, East Timor, Equatorial Guinea, Haiti, Hong Kong, India, Ireland, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Madagascar, Malta, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Paraguay, Philippines, Portugal, Rwanda, Switzerland, Tanzania, and Tunisia.

But, PLEASE REALIZE The countries you are pointing out.

The situation in the USA IS DIFFERENT!!!

What we have in the United States is different. We have a HUGE migration wave from Latin America coming into the United States. Their language (Spanish) is more becoming more mainstream because they are refusing to learn English. Never before has this happened in the history of our country in such a broad region (Southwest USA, Burger King, Wal*Mart, etc.).

——-

David you now claim

Mike, speaking English has never been a requirement for immigration. Thus no force has ever been exerted on immigrants to learn English. And yet, with all of these centuries of immigration, we are still an English speaking nation.

English has not been a requirement because in the past BEFORE political correct nonsense such as “hypertolerant rainbow coalitions” it was NOT bigoted to tell the immigrant “HEY LEARN ENGLISH!” That is why we are still speaking English as a country - but give it 25-30 more years and I guarantee you (on the path we are now and PC still ruling the day) that Spanish may no longer be a foreign language in the USA.

ElliottBay - I used “giving into the ethnic lobby” as an expression to prove how rediculous this is. Don’t take it the wrong way.

Can you guys demonstrate with any sort of evidence that children are not being taught english? That there are young people growing up in the United States without ever learning English?

mattLaw:

This will answer your question:

The Hispanic Challenge By Samuel P. Huntington

and in this 12 page report he claims:

The persistent inflow of Hispanic immigrants threatens to divide the United States into two peoples, two cultures, and two languages. Unlike past immigrant groups, Mexicans and other Latinos have not assimilated into mainstream U.S. culture, forming instead their own political and linguistic enclaves?from Los Angeles to Miami?and rejecting the Anglo-Protestant values that built the American dream. The United States ignores this challenge at its peril.

… later on he writes:

This trend could consolidate the Mexican-dominant areas of the United States into an autonomous, culturally and linguistically distinct, and economically self-reliant bloc within the United States. ?We may be building toward the one thing that will choke the melting pot,? warns former National Intelligence Council Vice Chairman Graham Fuller, ?an ethnic area and grouping so concentrated that it will not wish, or need, to undergo assimilation into the mainstream of American multi-ethnic English-speaking life.?

A prototype of such a region already exists: in Miami.

Bienvenido a Miami

so YES, Miami you can live there and learn no English. And from my experiences in Miami I can confirm this.

…so children are born and raised in Miami without ever learning English?

I don’t see how this is any different than the various ‘ethnic neighborhoods’ one will find in many cities throughout this country.

but see Miami is not an “ethnic neighborhood” it is a HUGE city..

WKMG may just be a local news station, but imagine other big enterprises doing the same in Central Florida. It could make itself into what Miami is - a place where assimilating the English language is no longer needed.

This is just Democracy at work. The Hispanics now comprise the greatest percentage in the ethnic makeup of the Maimi area. How dare you impose your Totalitarian Views on the Majority? Very soon now the Hispanics will be the dominant group and ALL will learn Spanish!!!!

but see Miami is not an “ethnic neighborhood” it is a HUGE city..

WKMG may just be a local news station, but imagine other big enterprises doing the same in Central Florida. It could make itself into what Miami is - a place where assimilating the English language is no longer needed.

So what are you suggesting? Short of a change in law, the market is going to adapt in such ways.

I lived in Texas for the last six years and I just cannot see this as an ‘important’ issue.

Mike T,

Most of the “immigrants” in my part of the country aren’t planning to stay anyway. They are here working and sending the money home.

Those that are coming to Miami are mostly Cuban, which the Republicans are welcoming with open arms.

I am not a Republican,

and although as you said Rocky they are here just to work… well most of that is changing, many are here to stay and want to bring their family with them.

A stable country cannot have two or more mainstream languages without the side-effect of disunity.

Yes it can. And ElliottBay, you (or the CIA) left out Singapore on your list. They have four official languages here: English, Mandarin, Tamil, and Malay. These guys are getting along fine.

Come on, the settlers all spoke English on the Mayflower and at Jamestown.

And in Los Angeles and St. Augustine, they all spoke Spanish; and in New Orleans they spoke French… But I understand your fear. That Huntington article was designed to do just that. Check out his book, “Who Are We?”, for more shocking revelations. It’s been pretty well refuted.

I’ve read “Who Are We?” and Huntington (Professor at Harvard) is right on with most of his accusations.

..and American Pundit I wasn’t talking about the land mass AMERICA but the country USA so therefore New Orleans/St. Augustine are irrelevant.

Those countries that have more than one official language have not had a demographic change as the USA is having now. That is why there will be social turmoil unlike in those other countries listed.

Come on, the settlers all spoke English on the Mayflower and at Jamestown.

This doesn’t counter David’s correct claim that America began multi-lingual. Of course, the settlers in those settlements spoke English - they were English settlements. That in now way counter the argument that those settlers learned native languages to survive.

Further, what about New Amsterdam? New Spain? New Orleans? St. Louis? Detroit? Baton Rouge? New Sweden?

Boo hoo. Spanish subtitles.

Another example of the weak-kneed right.

LawnBoy - Not EVERY settler leran a NATIVE language, plus the LINGUA FRANCA was ENGLISH. That cannot be DENIED, overwhelmingly ENGLISH was spoken. Let’s be revisionist historians here and try to justify accommodating immigrants culture. The American citizen should not have to assimilate, the immigrant should.

Mike T.,

In some areas, English was the primary language. In others, it wasn’t (New York - Dutch, Delaware - Swedish, Louisiana - French, California - Spanish). Over time, English became predominant, but it wasn’t always so.

There’s no revisionism going on in acknowledging that the English weren’t the only Europeans to settle American.

No need to yell, please.

I have no fears about English being lost. Those immigrants who learn english will be able to go to better colleges, get better jobs, and have better lives than those who don’t. Similarly, those English-speakers who learn Spanish may get better jobs, provide more products or services, and in general be better off. In addition, learning another language gives you mental excercise, and allows you to think in new ways. Everyone should do it. I think this is a case where the market really will take care of things.

It seems that the “assimilation melting pot” being promoted here is not so much a melting pot as a crucible, where differences from the WASP English-speaking majority are burned away in the name of being “American”, as if there was only one way to be American. In a true melting pot condition, yes, immigrants should learn english, and we should benefit by learning some other languages, customs, and ideas as well. The great thing about the true melting pot is that we learn from each other and everyone benefits.

..and American Pundit I wasn’t talking about the land mass AMERICA but the country USA so therefore New Orleans/St. Augustine are irrelevant.

Yikes! Did Florida and Louisiana secede from the Union? :)

AP,

Yikes! Did Florida and Louisiana secede from the Union? :)

Yes, in fact, they did. In 1861. For some reason, I don’t think that’s what Mike is talking about, though ;)

Brian Poole -

Understand that these immigrants are CREATING a society where English does not have to be learned to succeed in life.

Understand that these immigrants are CREATING a society where English does not have to be learned to succeed in life.

Maybe I’m just thick, but…. so?

Mike T
You said “A stable country cannot have two or more mainstream languages without the side-effect of disunity.” But there are 29 or 30 countries with multiple official languages, not to mention many others with multiple unofficial languages. Few if any of them have significant ethnic strife. So your point is disproved.

You also said that Hispanics “are refusing to learn English”. What facts do you have to back that up? Linguists will tell you that it’s much harder to learn a new language for an adult than for a child. So you can’t expect adults to easily learn English.

Your attitude strikes me as xenophobic.

LawnBoy - Not EVERY settler leran a NATIVE language, plus the LINGUA FRANCA was ENGLISH. That cannot be DENIED, overwhelmingly ENGLISH was spoken. Let’s be revisionist historians here and try to justify accommodating immigrants culture. The American citizen should not have to assimilate, the immigrant should.

Who’s telling you that you “have” to do anything?

edit: TYPO, I claimed in my comment above that “Lets be revisionist historians” I meant to say “lets NOT be revisionist historians”

LawnBoy -

Of course that is bad, a country or nation must have a predominant language. The problem here is there will two languages living side by side in one entity.

ElliottBay -

Call it xenophobic, but are my accusations that false? Look at Japan… a nation must have a certain level of DEFENSEIVE xenophobia or else it will collapse. Tokyo’s governor in the past has claimed immigrants raise the crime rate. Multiculturalism is not being allowed in Japan, and there is very little social conflict. The West right now is blind, but every 9/11 - 3/11 - 7/7 will keep waking us up from our slumber. Already multiculturalism is being challenged in the Netherlands and Australia.

And yes, they have very little ethnic strife - but that does not mean they do not have language miscommunications! I posted links to Belgium, Ukraine, etc.

I already have FACTS to back up that Hispanics are refusing to learn English. I live near Miami and South Florida and there are places where English is not even needed or spoken. Although there are Chinese enclaves in other major cities, the WHOLE city of Miami you do not need to know English (South Florida and vicinities around Miami are soon becoming like this). I posted that article by Huntington and I suggest reading it. I don’t care how hard it is for anyone to learn a language; the immigrant needs to assimilate not the American. There should be fluency in English requirements to come to live in the USA. If that is too hard for them to do, well then, what can I say? We are not a universal economic sanctuary with a universal culture. I really do not mind to be told my attitude is xenophobic. We are talking about fundamental nation making/statecraft.

I have met first generation immigrants who have told me how stupid it is to allow people in here who do not want to assimilate when they are throwing off their “old skins” to melt into the USA.

Other than only teaching english in public schools, how else do you suggest you curb these people from speaking their native language?

We do not have a national language, by law.

Are you suggesting that we should? That we should somehow force people to speak english? That private business should be forbidden from advertising in spanish, or printing products with the spanish language on them?

Of course that is bad, a country or nation must have a predominant language. The problem here is there will two languages living side by side in one entity.

You simply restated your position. That doesn’t answer the question. Give me something more than a tautology, please.

Mike T writes:

I am not fearing ANY ethnicity.

You seem to be doing all you can to make your prediction of social turmoil come true.

Mike T.,

Call or write that TV station and demand that they also use japanese,chinese, and arabic sub titles.

Threaten a lawsuit for discrimination if they don’t.

In todays “PC” world that will keep they’re lawyers busy for awhile…lol

Mike T.,

Your argument seems to be based on the idea that nations fall because of mutlilingualism. The evidence provided is that multilingual nationals have fallen in the past, and that current multilingal nations have tension.

While those points are true, they do not sufficiently support your premise. Innumerable unilingual nations from the past have fallen, and current unilingual nations also have tension.

I’d challenge you to find a large unilingual state that is as comfortable with itself as Austria, Belgium, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, New Zealand, Norway, or Switzerland are with themselves. Are those countres perfect? No, but neither are unilingual countries.

Yes, multilingualism and multiculturalism create tension, but it’s a fallacy to say that it’s a lethal problem.

er… I didn’t mean to include Belgium in that list, for obvious reasons.

Mike T

How do you know that people are REFUSING to learn English? Do you speak Spanish? Otherwise, since you can’t understand them, how do you know that Hispanics are refusing to learn to speak English?

You said “there are places where English is not even needed or spoken.” So what? Remember, there were places in New York City at the turn of the previous century where little or no English was spoken, and there probably still are. So what?

Today, there are places in Seattle (near where I live) where you only hear Vietnamese, Cambodian, Thai, Chinese, Lao, Spanish, Tagalog, or other languages. At the turn of the last century here there were places up here where you only heard Norwegian. There were places here in the 50’s where you only heard Italian. So what?

What are you afraid of, dude?

mattLaw -

I am suggesting English be a priority to learn for newly arrived immigrants.

Ms Schwamp -

Let’s not turn this into a RACE argument.

LawnBoy -

Those countries are not having a massive influx of another language as the USA is. If so, I guarantee there would be tension (already Arabic is some European countries making a debut is causing problems - but it is not big yet as Spanish in the USA is). Therefore, using those countries as examples is really invalid -> “Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, New Zealand, Norway, or Switzerland”

And based on historical fact, the USA has been a melting pot, not a bag of marbles where each marble represents a different culture/language.

ElliottBay -

I have been to Miami and seen first hand how English is no longer needed. You do not need to know any Spanish to know this.

Imagine being able to walk through downtown Seattle and in EVERY store you walk into English is not necessary. In fact, if we want to compare, imagine Seattle being a city where you do not need knowledge of English but only Chinese. I doubt this has happened, but if it does in the future, than something is seriously wrong.

This new immigration wave is truly unique, because of political correctness. Italian and Norwegian were not being placed on par with English as a language in the USA as Spanish is today.

I’m not afraid of anything, this is just very interesting what is happening: Immigrants moving in and we accommodating their language on so broad a scale. I guarantee you have the intelligence ElliottBay to realize that!

I am suggesting English be a priority to learn for newly arrived immigrants.

That’s a lovely suggestion, but I’m not seeing any solutions to this supposed ‘problem.’ Yes, immigrants should learn english (if only to help themselves succeed in the US).

Is this simply a gripe you have without really any suggestions on how (or even if) others should attempt to ‘fix’ it?

This new immigration wave is truly unique, because of political correctness. Italian and Norwegian were not being placed on par with English as a language in the USA as Spanish is today.

That’s because so many MORE people speak spanish than those other languages. The US has no official language, but:

Louisiana (English and French), New Mexico (English and Spanish), Hawaii (Hawaiian English and Hawaiian), Puerto Rico (Spanish and English), Guam (Chamorro and English), American Samoa (Samoan and English); and one is officially trilingual: Northern Mariana Islands (English, Chamorro, and Carolinian).

Until the 1950s, Pennsylvania was officially bilingual in English and German.

Here are the numbers from 2000, of languages spoken at home (English, Spanish, and the next highest):

English only 82.105% Spanish 10.710% Chinese (all spoken varieties incl.) 0.78%

Those countries are not having a massive influx of another language as the USA is. If so, I guarantee there would be tension (already Arabic is some European countries making a debut is causing problems - but it is not big yet as Spanish in the USA is). Therefore, using those countries as examples is really invalid -> “Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, New Zealand, Norway, or Switzerland”

So, you decry multiculturalism based on the premise that it will destroy our society, but you will accept only evidence that supports your conclusion.

After all, you accept the examples of Belgium and Ukraine, which have multicultural strife due to long-standing ethnic differences, but you discount counter-evidence from Switzerland and Luxembourg, which prosper despite long-standing ethnic differences.

If you want to restrict our analogies only to nations that had a lot of immigration, then you’ve lost your supporting evidence.

Sorry, that’s not very persuasive.

Imagine being able to walk through downtown Seattle and in EVERY store you walk into English is not necessary.

Your discomfort at not being dominant in every part of the country does not a national crisis make.

…than something is seriously wrong.

Hi All

ElliottBay, Well put.

What are you afraid of, dude?
IMO IMO
I grew up in NYC, Where every tongue under the sun and then some could be heard daily.
We as Americans think that any one who doesn’t learn to speak english must be “stupid”. But we as Americans are the same way when we are in other countries, How many US Service Members now stationed in Iraq or Afghanistan Have learned even rudimentary Arabic, let alone have even spoken it to a local? How do I know this? I spent the last 20 years of my life defending this great nation, 11.5 years of that outside of these borders. I would see GI’s in all countries, get frustrated that they could not communicate with the locals, Why? Because, they would not take the time to learn even the most Rudimentary Words of the local language ie… hello, goodbye, may I have this etc. Well when we see the same behaviors exhibited by the immigrants here we balk, throw up our hands in disgust and reply with a venomous “You come here and don’t want (refuse) to learn our language”. Do you know what the Number 1 reason given for this behavior is? wanna know? Well here it is, “I am afraid I’ll say it wrong and they’ll make fun of me”. Worldwide, the problem is the same, “NO ONE WANTS TO BE LAUGHED AT”. Geez, all that misunderstanding, for no other reason than the fact that “No One Likes To Be Thought The Fool”, so instead we just commit ourselves to a proving it, by ignoring the other side.

Just my Opinion.

As Always,Wayne

LawnBoy, Switzerland does not have this problem because the linguistic entities are separated by huge mountain ranges.

Also, multiculturalism may have benefits but they do not outweigh the malignant.. example - 7/7 in Britain.

Multiculturalism allows for separate societies into one. That makes ZERO SENSE. They shouldn’t have come to a new cuontry in the first place if they want to change it. And multiculturalism allows for DUEL loyalties. Multiculturalism is like Communism - it sounds good on paper.

Wayne and Elliott,

Take a look at his blog. The vast majority of his posts are about immigration and race. In fact, the information page is really just an advertisement for white separatist justification.

Look at the “maps” on that page. It basically defines current Western Civilization as Europe and where the English settled. Russian Asia, Mexico, Brazil, Israel, Japan, etc. apparently just don’t count. Then it insinuates through fear that we civilized folk will lose the land we have (through what process they decided that northern Australia , New Zealand’s North Island, the northern Ural Mountains and all of the British Isles would be lost by civilization, I can’t guess).

It’s just a little freaky.

As a Spanish speaker myself (English is my first language) I have heard a lot of arguments and opinions over the years about bilingualism, ESL, the value of English vs. Spanish. Spanish speakers tend to immigrate to an area where they know somebody from their home town so that they can get a foothold here more easily. It is a huge, complex, difficult step for most people to move here, so a hometown-like destination can really take the edge off. The sheer number of Spanish speakers moving into these areas creates an environment where Latin culture is dominant. Some people never learn English because they are less driven or motivated than others. They can live and work in their comfort zone forever and never learn English. But even these people want their children to learn because they can see that there are much greater opportunities for them when they are bilingual with English.

Over many year I have been lucky enough to have met hundreds of Spanish Speakers, mostly from Mexico (I live in California) who have come to the US. We have nothing to fear from these people. By and large they have a very strong work ethic, pride in their work, their children and families. They demonstrate more respect for their teachers, parents, and other traditional authority figures than do most native English speakers here. They have a lot to contribute.

THe people we need to worry about here are those who have told us clearly they want to destroy our country and our civilization. The way I see it we need all the perspective we can get and all the allies we can get right now.

Mike T

1. You said “A stable country cannot have two or more mainstream languages without the side-effect of disunity”, but have ignored the evidence that shows that it hasn’t had a significant impact in almost any of the 29 nations that currently have multiple official languages, not to mention in the many other nations that (like ours) have multiple unofficial languages. So what evidence do you have that Spanish-speaking immigrants will damage our country?

2. You also said that Hispanics “are refusing to learn English”. What facts do you have to back that up? Claiming to have facts is not the same thing as actually having (and sharing) them, and just because someone doesn’t speak English doesn’t mean that they’ve refused to learn it.

I’m repeating these two points because you haven’t addressed them yet.

I may be misinterpreting what you’re saying, but IMHO, it seems that your real issue is your irrational fear of foreigners. Especially hispanics.

“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”

But only if they speak English, I guess.

IMO

I don’t care who speaks what language as long as they are not jumping on the welfare line because jobs are limited from communication!
That is the problem that the U.S. has that seperates us from others…yes, I can move anywhere I like but I better be able to communicate w/ the masses or I’m out a job and their country will not support me because of this!
IMO I think that is why the “Spanish”/”Mexican” population drives people crazy….the masses are not coming over here educated enough to support themselves, and unwilling to do it upon arrival! I go into a great deal of Asian stores(that they own and opperate) so it really dosn’t matter if they speak the language or not….they are supporting their own beliefs!And quite frequently they do speak English they just choose not to, which once again is fine w/ me as long as they are not like………”Here I am, unwilling to cooperate, now deal w/ me and support me!”

LawnBoy, Switzerland does not have this problem because the linguistic entities are separated by huge mountain ranges.

Yes, because mountains have kept India and China from fighting, just like England and France never fought because they were separated by a big body of water. err… well…

Seriously, do you buy your own rhetoric?

Anyway, what about the other countries? There are peaceful and warring homogenous states and peaceful and warring heterogeneous states.

I’m not saying that multiculturalism makes things easier for a society, but you’ve done nothing to establish that multiculturalism is more dangerous to America than many other issues we face, or that a Spanish-language news broadcast is in any way a threat.

Also, multiculturalism may have benefits but they do not outweigh the malignant.. example - 7/7 in Britain.

Conservatism may have benefits, but it does not outweight the malignant… examples - Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh.

Come on.

Multiculturalism allows for separate societies into one. That makes ZERO SENSE.

Why? I know you don’t like it, but what is the actual harm? You keep avoiding Elliot’s point on this.

They shouldn’t have come to a new cuontry in the first place if they want to change it.

Does it follow that the Mayflower and the Jamestown settlers shouldn’t have come here unless they were willing to assimilate into the then-dominant culture?

And multiculturalism allows for DUEL loyalties.

You meant DUAL loyalties, but I really like the unintended double-meaning.

Anyway, are you saying that you maintain a second loyalty to the Queen because you prefer English? To what is your second loyalty?

LawnBoy -

You have to be kidding me. You are the one who is now afraid. As for ‘white separatism’ please you are now getting ridiculous. In fact, please don’t throw accusations like that because I am Mexican-American. As for the newslinks, they are just interesting newslinks which I find and link to. I do not endorse any of them.

Now ElliottBay, it is not a matter of “refusing to learn English” it becomes a matter of “no need to learn English.”

I don’t mean to play moderator here, but Mike T. commented “I’m not afraid of anything, this is just very interesting what is happening: Immigrants moving in and we accommodating their language on so broad a scale.” and then Lawnboy commented “Your discomfort at not being dominant in every part of the country does not a national crisis make.”

I do not think Mike is worried about being dominant all over. He is simply pointing out how volatile a situation we are getting ourselves into by ignoring our melting pot roots. Mike is NOT writing about an ethnic enclave in Miami or LA, but how a larger region (Central Florida) is now beginning to accommodate Latin American immigrants.

Mike,

You’re a Mexican-American defending Western Civilization, but you don’t think that Mexico is part of Western Civilization?

It just got more freaky.

And no, I’m not kidding you.

James C,

You’re right. He didn’t say directly that he was uncomfortable with non-English-speaking stores. However, he asked us to “(i)magine being able to walk through downtown Seattle and in EVERY store you walk into English is not necessary.” I can only presume that he intended us to be discomfited by the hypothetical. Perhaps he had another intent.

Mike?

With my experiences in Mexico it is only logical to say “NO Mexico is not incorporating Western Civilization”. It is not WESTERNIZED nation because it is not MODERNIZED.

I do consider Japan and Israel Westernized nations. Of course they are Western nations.

My intent was this: If I moved to China I would expect myself to be speaking in Chinese. If I moved to Japan I would expect myself to be speaking in Japanese.

I do not have a problem where anyone is from, if they want to come here and adopt our ways (“When in Rome do as the Romans”) that is perfectly acceptable. My ancestors did that.

But, on a side note…Consider this quote by Theodore Roosevelt -

“There is no place for the hyphen in our citizenship… We are a nation, not a hodge-podge of foreign nationalities. We are a people, and not a polyglot boarding house.”

Mike…repeating my questions you didn’t answer:

I’m not seeing any solutions to this supposed ‘problem.’ Yes, immigrants should learn english (if only to help themselves succeed in the US).

Is this simply a gripe you have without really any suggestions on how (or even if) others should attempt to ‘fix’ it?

If I moved to China I would expect myself to be speaking in Chinese. If I moved to Japan I would expect myself to be speaking in Japanese.

Ok. So, if you moved to a homogeneous country with an official language, you would try to adapt. That’s your choice.

However, what if you moved to a heterogeneous country without an official language? What would you do then?

I understand completely where Mike is coming from. He just wants this great nation to be as stable as it is for our posterity. He has already stated before that he doesn’t care what ethnicity or what cultural background people have as LONG as they disband and adapt instead of forcing that responsibility upon us.

I understand completely where Mike is coming from. He just wants this great nation to be as stable as it is for our posterity. He has already stated before that he doesn’t care what ethnicity or what cultural background people have as LONG as they disband and adapt instead of forcing that responsibility upon us.

I’m just not buying the idea that this is anything NEW for the United States.

The spanish language will cause disunity?
Liberals vs. Conservatives(Disunity)
Super Patriots vs. The Informed(Disunity)
Yankees vs. Redsox(Disunity)
Cat people vs. Dog people(Disunity)
When did you folks stop blaming the jews for all the worlds problems? I’m Spanish so I’d appreciate it if you went back to blaming them and hating the French.(Ha Ha)

mattLaw -

It would take too large of a comment to explain why this is something new for the United States, so I’m here are the broad cateogires out of ‘Who Are We?’:

Contiguity
Numbers
Illegality
Regional Concentration
Persistance
Historical Presence

——-
Someone as intelligent as you mattLaw has to AT LEAST see some different trend.

Andre M. Hernandez: I have not bashed the Spanish people at all. And all of those issues you listed that cause disunity do not cause disunity in the same scale. None of those can truly cause balkanization…

The Hispanics are telling me I have to learn their language.
Where? How? The fact that you failed to elaborate yet again suggests that you don’t really have any way to back this up…

Posted by: mattLaw at July 25, 2005 08:01 PM

OK, How about just about every time I talk to one they say someting like,
“You need to learn Spanish so we can talk to each other easier.”
Or,
“If you don’t learn Spanish then we cann’t be friends.”
I had one apply for a job with my company and told me during the interview that I had to learn Spanish so we could communicate after he was hired, which he wasn’t.
Is that enough for you.
Guess you’ve never had anything like this happen to you, or at least you most likely won’t admit it.

We do not have a national language, by law.

Are you suggesting that we should? That we should somehow force people to speak english? That private business should be forbidden from advertising in spanish, or printing products with the spanish language on them?

Posted by: mattLaw at July 26, 2005 12:36 PM
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh conservative?
Now that is really stretching it. The only thing they conserved was their fate.

The solution to this problem is easy for me. I am 57 years old and only speak english. I will continue to handle the situation as I have in the past. If anyone aproaches me for a job, a handout, directions or anything else, if I can’t understand them, I can’t help them. Those who don’t learn english here are putting themselves at a HUGE disadvantage. Come to think of it, any opertunity that they lose because of it is another one for me.

Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh conservative? Now that is really stretching it. The only thing they conserved was their fate.

But it’s no more of a stretch than blaming 7/7 on multiculturalism. That was my point.

K, How about just about every time I talk to one they say someting like, “You need to learn Spanish so we can talk to each other easier.” Or, “If you don’t learn Spanish then we cann’t be friends.”

I suppose I’ll just have to take your anecdotal musings as fact, since that seems to be the only ‘evidence’ of this that you can produce.

My anecdotal evidence? I lived and worked around many legal and illegal immigrants for about 6 years in Texas (up until last August when I moved to Indiana to go back to school).

I’ve never heard such comments (“If you don’t learn spanish we can’t be friends???”). Some of my coworkers spoke little english, but they knew enough to do their jobs well.

I had one apply for a job with my company and told me during the interview that I had to learn Spanish so we could communicate after he was hired, which he wasn’t.

You tried to go to work for one of these terrible non-english speaking people?

Is that enough for you. Guess you’ve never had anything like this happen to you, or at least you most likely won’t admit it.

I would certainly admit it, though I wouldn’t attempt to hang a far-flung argument on it.

You tried to go to work for one of these terrible non-english speaking people.
NO, he tried to come to work for me.

You tried to go to work for one of these terrible non-english speaking people. NO, he tried to come to work for me.

…so an applicant told you (in spanish or english?) that you’d have to learn spanish if you hired him?

LOL.

Bringing Rudolph and McVeigh into this run of thoughts on multiculturalism doesn’t make sense, unless you are trying to vilify someones political position and equating it with your own twist of multiculturalism. What ever it is sad that so many people come to this country because be are glorious, mighty, free, great and caring among other positive attributes. If in their homes, churches and other places of dominant cultural attitudes they want to speak their home tongue so be it. In the public arena they should learn English for their own benefit. If they want to be deprived of the benefits of American culturalism because they do not want to learn English then so be it. But do not ram down my throat their culturalism in my work arena, or church or school, or you get the drift. And quit giving them largesse from the public trough because they do not want to assimilate into the American culture. There are large areas in this country that have ancestry from another country. Milwaukee,WI and South Bend,IN have very large populations consisting of Polish ancestry. When growing up in the South Bend area there was no catering to the Polish language. Yes there were programs on the radio for Polish speaking people. They were few. Most of the Polish people learned to speak English and quite a number used the Polish language in their churches and homes.
They became Americans!!!!!!!

The bottom line here seems to be that those that are not learning English are surviving quite well. It is those of us that are trying to hire/buy from/sell to, that are those with the problem.

LawnBoy -

But it’s no more of a stretch than blaming 7/7 on multiculturalism.

A stretch? Hardly

From Prague Daily Monitor:

The excessive openness of the West to immigrants from other cultural environments facilitates attacks by radical Islamists in western countries, President Vaclav Klaus said in an interview

&

From The Japan Times:

The British government has backed the development of a multicultural and multiethnic society, and has accepted, if not promoted, multilingual communities. Until quite recently Britain welcomed immigrants and asylum seekers. These policies have made British society in the last half century much more diverse, and Britain has deservedly won a reputation for tolerance of ethnic and cultural differences.The British government has backed the development of a multicultural and multiethnic society, and has accepted, if not promoted, multilingual communities. Until quite recently Britain welcomed immigrants and asylum seekers. These policies have made British society in the last half century much more diverse, and Britain has deservedly won a reputation for tolerance of ethnic and cultural differences.

Public opinion, however, has now become concerned that the changes that have occurred in British society have gone too far and that the common values that have been developed in Britain over the centuries are being eroded.

One of the most important of these values — tolerance toward the beliefs of others — has been sorely tried by the revelation that the July 7 London bombers were British-born Muslims. How could this happen in our society? What can we do to root out those who promoted the evil philosophy that persuaded young men to sacrifice their own lives to kill and maim innocent people?

Mike,

Now you’re conflating different concepts. “excessive openness of the West to immigrants” is about immigration policy, not about multiculturalism and airing a news program with Spanish subtitles. Could you stick to vilifying one thing at a time?

The article from the Japan Times says that some are concerned that tolerating an ideology bent on the destruction of society might be going too far with an otherwise good idea. Once again, this has nothing at all to do with airing a news program with Spanish subtitles.

Again, your justifications are no more logical than blaming Conservatism for Eric Rudolph and Tim McVeigh.

Eric Rudolph and Tim McVeigh = pschyopaths not Consevatives.

I’ll stick to the topic no problem, I just wanted to answer your comment !! :)

Eric Rudolph and Tim McVeigh = pschyopaths not Consevatives.

7/7 bombers = Islamic Fundamentalists not Multiculturalists.

Mike T,

I stated very clearly “Spanish Language” not Spanish people.
You did say that “The spanish language would cause disunity.”
If you do not see the disunity in the United States between those who give their blind, unwaivering support for the Bush administration and those of us who thinks this is one of the worst presidents in U.S. history you’re not looking.
The wedge that this administration has driven between those they label “Liberals” and those they call “Conservative” is enormous. All to deflect criticism and avoid accountability. They now have the get out of jail free card, they blame Partisan Politics every time they screw up.

Lawnboy, Islamic Fundamentalists allowed to proliferate BECAUSE of Multiculturalism

And McVeigh and Rudolph based their actions on ideology akin to Conservatism.

You’re really not getting the point about how weak your argument is, are you?

Mike T

You still haven’t answered my questions.

If I understand your argument (immigrants must immediately adopt the languages and customs of the nation they emigrate to) correctly, then shouldn’t the first English-speaking immigrants to this continent have abandoned English and learned a native American language? After all, the Native Americans were here first, so the European iimmigrants should have learned THEIR language, according to your argument. Remember that almost every American citizen (except for Native Americans) is either an immigrant or the descendent of one.

Furthermore, the European immigrants soon outnumbered the Native American population and began imposing their European languages and customs. So if it was OK for the English-speaking immigrants to do it then, why is it wrong for Spanish-speaking immigrants to do the same thing now?

I will also remind you that the original European settlers in Florida, California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas spoke SPANISH. Not English. So it doesn’t make much sense for you to complain about too many Spanish-speaking immigrants there.

I’m reading some dumb (in my opinion) stuff here. EllottBay, look at those countries. Bad example. MattLaw, sure they want us to learn Spanish. Every where you go you have to see signage in Spanish. They ask what language on the phone. The politicians suck up to them for votes. They want us (US) to accomodate them. We have laws that say you have to have this and that (divers license, ballots, etc.) in Spanish. This is not the Balkans. This is not the US of Mexico. A common language is part and parcel for the success of this country.

Decades ago, the immigrants wanted to become Americans. Now, too many want to be hyphenated. They don’t want to be part of the melting pot that is America. The common denominator makes us ONE. Not multi-cultural political correctness.

Well said Dee Lee.

..and ElliottBay, there are immigrants here who have refused to learn English. If this was not true, there would be NO NEED to have broadcasts in subtitled Spanish.

Also the settlers came here when there was no such thing as the USA. They later established the United States. They were not throwing their customs on ANYONE. Even if they cleared them out, they bought the land. Native Americans were on the LAND MASS America first but not in the COUNTRY the United States first.

Mattlaw
…so an applicant told you (in spanish or english?) that you’d have to learn spanish if you hired him?

Right, and he told me in English.
SO WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO LEARN SPANISH
Now there is the chance he really didn’t want a job.

Lawnboy
McVeigh and Rudolph practiced anarchy.
They could not have done what they did under any kind of conservative intrepretation of their actions. That is called creative distortion of the language and certainly not symantics.

DeeLee-
You didn’t say why those countries were a bad example. Mike T started this thread by claiming that NO nations could survive with multiple languages. He didn’t say SOME nations. He didn’t say A FEW nations. He said NO nations. Please explain how the fact that there are DOZENS of fully functional nations with multiple languages supports his position.

You also said that immigrants don’t want to be American. What do you mean by “being American” and how do you know that they don’t want to do this?

Mike T-
I guess I have to repeat myself yet again because you still haven’t addressed my point. You said that immigrants are refusing to learn English. I have asked many times for evidence. How many immigrants are refusing to learn English? How do you know that? Have you spoken to them? Have you spoken to English teachers? Have you read news reports? A TV station broadcasting with Spanish subtitles is not proof of anything other than that the station wants higher ratings!

THEY BOUGHT THE LAND????? No they didn’t. They killed the native Americans and took the land. Try reading Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee for the REAL history of how the Native Americans were treated. I guarantee you won’t EVER say anything like that again.

Mike T-

If you’re defining “assimilation” as the immigrant group becoming American, and not America accomodating their culture and absorbing parts of it, how do you account for the countless celebrations of St Patrick’s Day in this country? How do you account for the numerous celebrations of Chinese New Year? The numerous Polish and Eastern European festivals in the upper midwest? Aren’t these examples of “accomodation”?

Almost every American is either an immigrant or the descendent of an immigrant. This nation is based on the accomplishemnts if immigrants.

Every wave of immigrants of various nationalities to this country has been met with resentment, discrimination, and backlash of some kind, and has taken more than one generation to fully assimilate. The current wave of Hispanic immigrants is no different, and your reaction to them is also no different.

Aside from the fact that English is, according to many, one of the most difficult languages to learn, it’s also a fact that the older a person is, the more difficult it is to learn a new language. So you can’t expect first-generation immigrants to become fluent in (or even speak) English. Do you have any figures on how many of the Hispanic immigrants in Florida have come there during their lifetime versus how many were born there? If you look, I think you’ll find that most, if not all, of those born there (plus those who came when they were young children) speak English.

ElliottBay -

I never said that immigrants DO NOT want to be Americans. Many want to, but they need to learn our language (English) to be an American.

Read ‘The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History’ and you will see we did buy most of the land. The Puritans even allowed the Indians to hunt on the land they had boughten. The Indians did have a concept of ownership.

On the topic of refusing to learn English it is quite simple. How else is there a reason to explain how the Hispanic community is upset with a bill to require English as the official language in some states? Such as in Ohio:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/localnews/content/localnews/daily/0706language.html

Connect the dots, it is quite clear they are not wanting to learn English.

Having parades and celebrations from other cultures does not equate to accommodating them. It is not on the same mainstream level. Spanish is replacing English in South Florida and Southern California as the main form of communication. Accommodate means to ADAPT. In South Florida I will soon have to ADAPT to the Spanish Language. I do not have to ADAPT to Chinese New Year or St. Patrick’s Day or any other festivals because they are on such small a scale versus our language).

You just claimed

The current wave of Hispanic immigrants is no different, and your reaction to them is also no different.

In an article by Huntington he points out how there is SOMETHING different. In fact, for starters we can talk about PROXIMITY (how close this wave is coming from).

I really do not CARE how hard it is to learn English. I have sympathy for immigrants in America trying to get by and make a living but I will not show NO sympathy at the expense of our cultural suicide.

Lawnboy McVeigh and Rudolph practiced anarchy. They could not have done what they did under any kind of conservative intrepretation of their actions. That is called creative distortion of the language and certainly not symantics.

tom,

McVeigh was motivated by a hatred of large government, which is a Republican value. Rudolph was motivated by a hatred of abortion, which is a Republican value.

I’m not saying that their actions were consistent or in line with standard Republican and Conservative standards of practice. However, their ideological motivations were based in the same philosophies that form the basis of modern American conservatism.

I’m not blaming the Republican party or conservatives for what those two men did. I’m simply pointing out that there’s as stong of a connection there as in the link Mike T. is trying to make between Multiculturalism and 7/7.

My point is that in both Mike’s claim and my counter-claim, there’s a thread of truth that does not justify the overall ridiculousness of the charge.

tomd

The solution to this problem is easy for me. I am 57 years old and only speak english. I will continue to handle the situation as I have in the past. If anyone aproaches me for a job, a handout, directions or anything else, if I can’t understand them, I can’t help them. Those who don’t learn english here are putting themselves at a HUGE disadvantage. Come to think of it, any opertunity that they lose because of it is another one for me.

Seems like more and more people who live here don’t need to speak english to get by, if Mike’s article is right. And of course, you can keep doing as you have in the past, but keep in mind… if you approach them asking for a job, a handout, directions or anything else and they can’t understand you, they can’t help you. Those who don’t learn other languages in a multilingual country, or even a multilingual world, are putting themselves at a HUGE disadvantage. Though, come to think of it, any opportunity you lose in that way is another opportunity for someone who embraces multiculturalism and has worked to become bilingual.

That’s how the free market works. As you say, the solution to this problem IS easy.

Mike T-
You’re Mexican-American and yet you don’t speak Spanish?

You found one book that denies that we slaughtered the Indians and took their land, and you believe it? I know of several books that claim that the Holocaust didn’t happen. Do you believe that too? Maybe you also believe in the tooth fairy.

I think you’re xenophobic and proud of it. You’re basically saying that “We don’t want those stinky, smelly coming into OUR country, and ruining OUR culture. They don’t talk like us. They don’t even look like us. Why should we let them in?”

You just don’t get it. This country was populated COMPLETELY by immigrants like your ancestors and mine. We are all - every one of us - the descendents of immigrants. And you wanna shut the doors. Don’t deny it - I’ve looked at your web site, and that’s the least scary part of it (thanks, Lawnboy).

Ron Brown-

The guy who appplied for the job was probably pulling your leg when he said you’d have to learn Spanish! Sometimes injecting a little humour into a tense situation has a good, warming effect.

We should thank God we have a big enough and great enough country here to be able to live and let live. Those non-English speakers who are motivated to move onward in their lives will learn English because they need it to get ahead. Others will stay in their ethnic comfort zones because of theri lesser degree of motivation and do fine too on their terms.

-Monica

ElliottBay my ancestors assimilated. It seems as if YOU want me to hold onto where my ancestors came from and want me to be a hyphenated American… that’s not what the USA is about. It’s a melting pot.

also ElliottBay:

http://www.wltx.com/news/news19.aspx?storyid=29025

look at that, adopted Hispanic son stabbed his adoptive mother to death for being forced to speak English

Wow,

Very impressive, Mike. You’ve supported your idea to change the social structure with a single anecdote, and only half the anecdote at that:

Prosecutor Dayton Riddle says the boy killed his mother after being required to speak only English on the day of her death. Riddle says the boy had also been punished for —not— getting up to go to work with his father.

Very impressive logic.

Lawnboy
You have swallowed hook line and sinker the MSM that says Rudolph was motivated by the abortion issue. How does that carry over to the Olympic bombing? The motivation was not the abortion issue, that was the smoke screen for the anarchy behavior. Likewise with McVeigh. Big government is a Rep-Dem center point. But McVeigh used it for a smoke screen for his behaviior. There were no issues, it is all about behavior. Hate behavior. See, anarchy says no government. Everybody makes their own rules and breaks their own rules. Other rules do not apply. Rudolph and McVeigh exemplified those behaviorial characteristics.

tom,

You’re completely missing my point.

“Conservatism may have benefits, but it does not outweight the malignant… examples - Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh.” is a ridiculous and offensive statement. I know this. I made that statement as a way to point out the offensiveness and ridiculousness of this statement: “Also, multiculturalism may have benefits but they do not outweigh the malignant.. example - 7/7 in Britain.”

Both have a thread of truth, but neither is more valid than claiming we need to ban rucksack technology because it was used in 7/7.

Besides, you’re wrong that it’s just a smokescreen from the MSM that connects Rudolph to abortion. Here’s a portion of his own statement on the matter:

…the purpose of the attack on July 27 was to confound, anger and embarrass the Washington government in the eyes of the world for its abominable sanctioning of abortion on demand.

I understand rejecting the behavior of a fringe group, but to deny the ideological issues involved is logically invalid. We liberals have had to deal with that for years with our destructive ideological kin.

Oh yeah, I should have pointed out that the July 27 attack was the Olympics attack.

LawnBoy she wanted an example, therefore I gave her one…

You provided an example of a surly teenager also motivated by laziness. Hardly a convincing argument. However, I guess you met the bare minimum of what Elliot asked for.

Mike T
You still haven’t addressed any of my questions.

*sigh*

Against my better judgement, I’ll ask them one last time:

“Refusing” implies two things: (a) that an opportunity has been offered, and (b) it was turned down. So in order to prove that these immigrants are refusing to learn English, you have to prove both parts. You haven’t addressed either one.

Furthermore, you didn’t say that SOME have refused, you didn’t say that MANY have refused. You implied that ALL have refused. Show me the facts.

Why are you refusing to address these issues? Unless you have answers, your original point will look more and more like a silly right wing rant that has no basis in reality.

I look forward to a point-by-point response.

I’ve answered most of those in previous comments, you keep adding more and re-asking.

-> First one. Most people in those countries know ALL those official or SEMI-official LANGUAGES. Such as in Europe where they learn them all.

In the UNITED STATES what is happening is some people are only knowing Spanish and other people are only knowing English.

-> Second one.

You said “One goal that multiculturalists harbor is to rip the United States apart by making it a multilingual country.” Buut you haven’t ever said who these people are, or how you know this.

Do you think the Nazi’s would have said before taking power that their goal was to racially purify the world and they would do it by bombing most of London? Connect the dots in this scenerio. For names, look at what the ACLU is doing. They support illegal aliens to enter the USA who do not even know English.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43812

“The ACLU’s position is that illegal aliens have a right to enter our border and stay in this country as long as they want,” said Deacon.

-> Third one, I just posted a link in a previous. http://www.wltx.com/news/news19.aspx?storyid=29025 - refused to learn English so killed his adoptive mother. And look at this: http://www.daytondailynews.com/localnews/content/localnews/daily/0706language.html .. why ELSE would the Hispanic community be outraged that English would be the official language? Because they want to keep speaking their Spanish and not have to learn English.

-> Fourth one.. you love playing a game of semantics dont you? More the most part, in the New England area for the Puritans land was bought through bartering.

-> Fifth. Huntington is an expert in that area. Why would you call his book white supremacism material? He states in the intro that we do not have to be Anglo-Saxons to continue the Anglo-Protestant traditions set in place by this nation’s foundings. From that statement, calling him a white supremacists is silly.

-> Sixth? I read what you said, why would I comment? I claimed this Hispanic wave is UNIQUE in most ways.

——

Now, you made the CLAIM that

Almost every American is either an immigrant or the descendent of an immigrant.

Yet I have a friend who has ancestors who came here on the Mayflower. They were SETTLERS, not immigrants. So your statement is incorrect.

You also claim:

The current wave of Hispanic immigrants is no different, and your reaction to them is also no different.

But in Huntington’s book he DOES mention why it is different. You also claim Huntington sounds like a white supremacists… give me some evidence that he does. Writing a book and in it incorporating how the Latino immigration is different is no base to call it WS literature.

1. Most people know all the languages? WRONG. The CIA factbook that I referenced earlier makes that obvious. And that still doesn’t prove your original post that multiple languages are harmful or dangerous to EVERY nation that has them.

2. Remember what you said? You said that the goal of not some multiculturalists, but of multiculturalists AS A WHOLE is “to rip the United States apart”. Since you’ve made that statement, you must have seen someone stating that as a goal. Please share it.

3. So, one immigrant killing his mother means that IMMIGRANTS IN GENERAL ARE REFUSING TO LEARN ENGLISH? That’s absurd. So is claiming that opposition to a law mandating English means that they don’t want to learn English. That’s just supposition on your part, and without merit.

4. You said that “we did buy most of the land”. Scroll up and check for yourself. You DIDN’T say that we bought a little bit of the land, or even some of the land. You said most of the land. I’m not playing semantics here. I’m quoting you directly.

5. Huntington claimed that “Anglo Protestant” culture needed to be protected. The more common name for that culture is White Anglo Saxon Protestant, commonly known as WASPs. Hispanic immigrants are neither Anglo nor Protestant. Some people consider them non-white. Isn’t Huntington saying that this wave of immigrants is more dangerous than many previous waves of immigrants because the immigrants aren’t predominantly WASPs?? That’s awfully close to racism.

6. Immigrants and “settlers”? Now who’s playing at semantics? Both groups of people came here from some place else! I stand by the point that this nation was founded by people who came here from somewhere else (regardless of what you choose to call them), and almost every one of us has an immigrant or a settler as an ancestor.

And you still haven’t said why immigrants to Florida should learn English when the original immigrants/settlers/people from someplace else/ehatever term you care to use spoke Spanish themselves.

Because English is the official language of Florida:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida

Such as in Europe where they learn them all.

Not true. Have you been to Europe? Few Swiss can speak German, French, Italian, and Romansh, yet the country functions well. Here’s how they function:

There is no obligation for the state to translate its communication in all four languages, so most communication is in three languages and only some very important documents are translated to Romansh. Indeed, in the parliament, German, French and Italian are the official languages and simultaneous translation is provided.

You have shown no validity in the premise of your argument.

…Connect the dots in this scenerio…

In other words, you want us to trust your conspiracy theory despite the lack of proof. Not going to happen.

“The ACLU’s position is that illegal aliens have a right to enter our border and stay in this country as long as they want,” said Deacon.

You’re accepting the definition of ACLU policy from someone not affiliated with the ACLU? Not a convincing source.

Further, this does not prove the claim that multiculturalists want to destroy the country. There’s still a logical gap between allowing illegal aliens and destroying the country.

you love playing a game of semantics dont you? More the most part, in the New England area for the Puritans land was bought through bartering.

He’s not playing semantics. You’re playing a game of redefining the question when you’re shown to be wrong. You said that we bought the land from the Native Americans, which is true in only a small fraction of cases. When the majority of cases (theft and war) were shown, you claim that the minority is what you meant.

Come on.

Yet I have a friend who has ancestors who came here on the Mayflower. They were SETTLERS, not immigrants.

What is the difference in terms of this debate? Who’s playing semantic games?

“Seems like more and more people who live here don’t need to speak english to get by, if Mike’s article is right. And of course, you can keep doing as you have in the past, but keep in mind… if you approach them asking for a job, a handout, directions or anything else and they can’t understand you, they can’t help you. Those who don’t learn other languages in a multilingual country, or even a multilingual world, are putting themselves at a HUGE disadvantage. Though, come to think of it, any opportunity you lose in that way is another opportunity for someone who embraces multiculturalism and has worked to become bilingual.

That’s how the free market works. As you say, the solution to this problem IS easy.

Posted by Jarandhel at July 28, 2005 02:57 AM”

I can live with that.

“The ACLU’s position is that illegal aliens have a right to enter our border and stay in this country as long as they want,” said Deacon.

I want to go a bit further with my analysis of the logical gaps you ignore here.

To support the statement “One goal that multiculturalists harbor is to rip the United States apart by making it a multilingual country.” with the above quote, you have to establish the following five steps (at least):

• The ACLU are multiculturalists.
• One can extrapolate from the ACLU to all multiculturalists.
• Deacon’s statement is accurate.
• Allowing illegal aliens into the country would rip the country apart.
• The motivation in supporting the rights of illegal aliens is to rip the country apart instead of another motive (such as human rights).

These are five major holes in your argument. Added to the large pile of other holes in your argument that we have examined, these gaps show that your claim in unsupported.

What I love about the “assimilate” crowd is how their arguments apply to the puritans, et. al.
Afterall, the “immigrants” certainly did destroy the indiginous culture. Is that the correlation they’re looking for? Or is the argument that we’re a succesful nation because we were enabled by destroying the multicultural native Indians?

ElliottBay.

We must be of different generations. The European immigrants that I knew as a youngster back in the thirties strived to become Americans. They were proud of their heritage, but more proud to be new Americans. You can say what you want, but they didn’t try to fracture the count