Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

Mike T., I have both praise and condemnation for your article.

First the condemnation. Your article reflects a fair amount of ignorance of China. Multiculturalism does exist in China. They have Nanking Japanese/Chinese. They have Mongols. They have Tibetans, a very non-homegenous ethnic group within their borders. They have Christians, a number of differing Buddhists sects. They have the British indoctrinated freedom lovers of Singapore and Hong Kong.

China has its own multicultural problems to deal with, to include multi-lingual dialects. So, to paint China as a homogenous society is to reveal a real lack of understanding of what China really is.

Now the praise. In your last sentence of your last paragraph you recognize a concept of sociology that has been around since the 1960’s called SuperOrdinate goals. The way to bring exclusive factions together to work together, is to introduce superordinate goals, which are nothing more than goals which the factions share but cannot accomplish without each other’s cooperation and assistance. The term was defined in a research paper called (if memory serves correctly) The 1967 Summer Study.

9/11 provided America with just a superordinate goal. It was squandered by Bush in his rush to invade Iraq without bringing the vast majority of Americans on board first. It was a tremendous opportunity which was never capitalized upon. Damn shame too!

No, the article is correct.

China doesnt have to worry about ‘multiculturalism’ because for the last dozen centuries they have been multicultural. They don’t have three centuries of white supremacists to suppress.

Sorry, typo. Christopher Columbus’ crusade of ignorance and exploitation started 5 centuries ago.

It pays to hit the preview button.

Mike T.,

Are you even suprised?

The Chinese started to build the Great Wall in the 7th century BC! By comparisson the Greeks had barely reached their golden age when this project was started.
This edifice is over 6000km long, and built by hand.

The Chinese have been industrious for over two millenia, and anyone that takes them lightly is a fool.

Mike T.

Err. China is about as homogeneous as the US is. I happen to know a great deal of personal experience about China. They ARE multi-cultural. The Government is just very good at suppressing it.

David is correct about the “Big Picture” Policy though. Every Chinese I have met in 5 Countries were thrilled about the first Chinese in Space. If China keeps going, very soon all the millions who fled Red China will once again identify with Red China. That would be very bad for the US and Taiwan.

Alduous.

I dont think it will be. An awakening China is exactly what America needs to keep it on it’s toes.

With some hope, your country might even find enough clue to implement Carter’s energy policies, and realise that you dont need to flatten the Middle East to obtain your precious oil.

poisonous flower of multiculturalism

Nice. :/

David, don’t forget China’s fairly large (28 million) Muslim population.

I saw in my paper today that thousands of rural Chinese marched on a factory that was a heavy polluter and closed it down. China also has a burgeoning labor movement (odd that a self-described communist state treats its workers so poorly that they need labor unions - and that the state actively opposes them).

You want to level the playing field with China? Vote for “fair trade” Democrats who will force Chinese business to improve their human rights, environmental, and labor standards before they can sell to the US.

I do believe China is of concern. Many of us do. But keep in mind this “flower of multiculturalism” is being funded by the profits of all the manufacturing your side sees no problem in heading their way, despite flagrant free trade violations.

You guys are like the Rick Moranis Character in Little Shop of Horrorsfeeding Audrey II with your own blood. Didn’t you understand that your “creative destruction” was being more creative on their side than ours?

I am coming to the belief that multicultural societies, though nice on paper, do not work on the ground so to speak. And I have to agree with Mike T.: yes China has some cultural diversity, but it largely a homogenous (Asian) society, while the U.S. (and increasingly Europe) is a mixture from all three major human races. Let’s face it, the melting pot needs to be stirred a lot more, for the stew is separated and not united towards a common goal.

China is our next big threat, economically, militarily, and politically. We dismiss and underestimate them at out own risk. Never forget, the Chinese are the oldest standing continuous human society on the planet, they must be doing something right.

You want to level the playing field with China? Vote for “fair trade” Democrats who will force Chinese business to improve their human rights, environmental, and labor standards before they can sell to the US.

Right on. That’s what Mr. Clinton should have considered before giving MFN status to China in the 90s. As much as it may have helped the U.S. economy short-term, his choosing to passively approve of religious persecution in China passed up a great opportunity to put pressure on the abuse, and prevent future Tianamen incidents. There are some 100 million Christians meeting in “house churches” in China, hiding from the government which habitually imprisons their leaders. I live with one of them.

Two interjections of my own MFN condemnation, however:

-Free trade with China may itself result long-term in pressure for better human rights. Historically, strong economy and increased rights have coincided in most countries. Iraq is a notable exception (the country prospered in the early 80s, and again after the Iran/Iraq war concluded). This opens up discussion topics on globalization.

-Not forcing China to improve its human rights record now will make it easier to demonize them if we ever go to war with them. However, severing economic ties with China would do more damage to us than it would for them. That might be the most damaging blow that China could deliver to the U.S.; by giving them MFA, they now have power over us - not the other way around.

Gandhi, Gandhi. You do know that the last Bush granted China MFN status first, didn’t you? This is what big business wanted.

Your folks have pushed free trade on America, even as other countries disregard the notion entirely and get away with it. While I have few objections to Adam Smith’s notion of letting the market decide prices and the value of imports, I do not think our current economic policy, which our president has had an entire term to alter, should be letting the Chinese get away with so much. It’s the last thing we need to be doing.

Clinton’s attitude towards business was one of compromise, one that bordered on Republican in it’s laissez faireness. Congress could have protested against it, but it didn’t.

If you think I agreed with that attitude, think again. I think Clinton messed up, but essentially continued the Republican record of messing up as well.

China was a great country for most of its history and will be a great country again. But don?t go crazy with either fear or admiration.

The early stages of growth are always easier than sustaining growth when the economy is already big.

China has some big bumps coming. The system is not free market. The Chinese have developed a workable system of using the free market, but it is still directed by bureaucrats. The Chinese environment is abysmal. There is nothing in the whole U.S. that compares to Chinese industrial areas and pollution is causing serious, practical health problems today (not the theoretical ones we talk about in the U.S.) And let?s not forget the corruption. People on this blog gleefully talk about corruption in the U.S. China is a whole different league. And China remains very poor.

And Var, if you are interested in genocide, domination and forced assimilation, you should become a little more familiar with Chinese history, or actually history in general. The West didn?t invent any of these things. It just gave them names.

So keep a close watch on China. Give credit for the rapid growth. But be realistic about the challenges.

I claim no knowledge of the multicultural situation in China. I accept at face value the existence of it and, in the cultures expressed in this thread.

My question is, in America where we have a multicultured society, many (if not most) are represented at some level of local, state and/or the Federal government level. In fact we go out of our way to create that situation.

Is the situation the same in China or, are the governmental positions or, other positions of meaningful authority reserved only for a single group.

David -

I realize I would be taking some heat for saying China does not have to worry about multiculturalism.

But “Han Chinese constitute about 91 percent of the population of mainland China”. We can safely say it is homogeneous. They have social cohesion.

Clinton giving China MFN status does not concern me near as much as when he gave them guidence systems for their ICBM’s.

Perplexed

China’s multiculturalism has only aroused problems (recently) in Tibet and in Taiwan. While both are a part of China, they have with the People’s Republic should be obvious. However, I think everyone is putting too much focus on this aspect.

BTW, Perplexed, China has not yet assaulted anyone, and essentially all of their wars have been internal. I think your concern with China’s military capacity is baseless, unless of course you feel like starting some sh*t with China.

Mike T. is right in every assertion he is making. China does not have to worry about political correctness or diversity workshops. Chinese people can be proud of their nation without being called a ‘racist’. The Chinese government even allows for Anti-Japan protests.

Zeek:

Excuse me, but didn’t one of China’s generals just threaten to nuke us?

Perplexed

Perplexed, you are quite right. A Chinese General did say China is prepared to go nuclear if the U.S. interferes with Chinese-Taiwan relations. It is safe to say some of our own Generals would say the same thing about China interfering in our relations with Puerto Rico.

But, Generals there act when the politburo tells them to, very much as ours are limited by the President and Congress. The Chinese governors are not about to allow Generals to dictate foreign policy, but they will use Generals as mouthpieces of warnings it would be undiplomatic of governors to utter. A tatic of all governing powers.

Accomodation of China’s growth has been the centerpiece of American relations with China since Nixon’s first visits and still is today under the Bush administation. Though the reasons for accomodation have changed, the Dragon is too damn big and important to the world economy to negate or deny.

Mike T.-
Not so fast. In your linked article:

Among Han Chinese, there is a wide diversity of distinct cultural and linguistic groups. The differences among regional and linguistic subgroups of Han Chinese are at least as great as those among many European nationalities. Han Chinese speak many varieties of Chinese spoken language which are generally labelled as different Chinese dialects although the difference among them can be as great as seen in many European languages. Cultural differences (cuisine, costume, and custom) are equally great. Modern Chinese history provides many examples of conflict, up to the level of small-scale regional wars, between linguistic and regional groups. Thus, the idea of a unified Han Chinese is quite complicated.

The article seems to give the impression that the Han Chinese like to believe that they are a unified group, and in fact are in many ways, but nonetheless have a great deal of diversity in language and in local customs. As it says, there are some distinctions between “dialects” of the Chinese language that are greater than the differences between European tongues we call full-blown languages.

You know, I think Conservatives would do themselves a bunch of favors if they just finished the articles they read sometimes.

I realized that in the article, but I linked it to prove how China is largely of one ethnic group which allows for social cohesion.

Spain has a few different linguistic groups, but the creation of a standardized Spanish language based on the Castilian dialect began in the 1200s with King Alfonso X.

China can do the same.

China does not have to worry about any “Chinese guilt” how Western nations deal with “White guilt”.

You mean they don’t have a conscience about the Maoist purge and reeducation centers? They don’t have any guilt over slaughter of the peaceful Tibetans? They don’t have any conscience over flooding 100’s of thousands of families out of their homes for their 9th wonder of the world Dam project?

Mike T., your remarks just don’t hold up to the body of knowledge and history of China over the last 75 years.

Hu-rah, David

Infatuation with China is overblown. We can recognize their achievements without pretending that this is a society we would admire in every way. China is still a very racist and xenophobic country. Pollution is horrendous. Human rights are not well respected. And let’s not forget the 30-50 million (what big numbers. Even the level of uncertainty is a giant number) who died as a result of Chinese government policies during the great leap forward, an event that happened not in the distant past but when most of us were alive.

David -

You pose VERY legitimate concerns.

However, I was pointing out how China does not have to worry about affirmative action programs, diversity workshops to ensure ‘tolerance’. Chinese can be proud to be Chinese without being called ‘intolerant’.

Just as Jack says ‘China is still a very racist and xenophobic country.’

I just want to respond to what Aldous said: “Every Chinese I have met in 5 Countries were thrilled about the first Chinese in Space. If China keeps going, very soon all the millions who fled Red China will once again identify with Red China. That would be very bad for the US and Taiwan.”

I observed the same reaction from my own Chinese friends. They were proud of the space trip, they’re very proud of Yao Ming (the basketball player). They’re proud of the recent popularity of Chinese cinema and a host of other achievements by ethnically Chinese individuals, as they should be.

But from what I can gather from speaking with them, they’re proud to see Chinese people gaining the high profile that was denied them in the past, but they’re NEVER going to “identify with Red China” which was responsible for murdering so many of their relatives and driving them from their homes, which is after all the reason lots of them live abroad today in the first place.

sanger:

I think you overestimate the hatred the Refugees have for “Red China”. While it is true they remember what happened to them, they do not view this in a monolithic fashion. Thus, a change in government in Red China is enough for most to give a fresh start. This is especially true to second generation Chinese living overseas.

The China today is not the China in Mao’s time.

So yes. They WILL identify with Red China. It is already happening in Macau and Hong Kong.

Aldous, you may be right up to a point. Many Chinese in America, for example, use their language skills and “old world” connections to do business with Chinese firms. I know very intimately of what I speak, since by brother is married to a Chinese woman whose family fled the Cultural Revolution.

The cultural connection with China runs deep among so many immigrants because so many of those who were forced to flee were the former intelligencia and cultural elite of old China.

However, anybody whose grandparents and cousins were executed by the Red Chinese (and this number is in the millions) have a hatred for the current regime that the rest of us can barely fathom, even if they culturally identify with China. Loyalty is something different from cultural ties. China would have to make MASSIVE changes to regain the kind of trust that is lost as a result of mass murder. Chinese-Americans are some of the most patriotic Americans you could ever find.

And you’re just wrong about Hong Kong, though I have no doubt that the government-controlled Chinese media may be putting out all kinds of stories about how much the residents of Hong Kong have warmed to the embrace of Beijing. They’ve don the same thing in Tibet. If you read the media, the Tibetans do nothing but sing of their gratitiude at being ground underfoot by the boot of China.

Mike T, quite right. China does not have to worry about anything except what its people think and experience. The greatest threat to China is its own massive population and rebellion. That is why the politburo both uses suppression and appeasement to insure the next rebellion does not take place.

China is all about power sharing. The Chinese Congress and politburo are acutely aware of the limits of their power and that they retain it only by the consent of a vast majority of its people. No government which ignores the needs of a billion people can last. I respect China’s growth and efficiency in holding their huge nation together. Their government could not work here. And quite frankly, ours could not work there, at this time.

Looking through a life lived in America, life in China appears brutal and enslaved at the hands of government. And by our standards it is. But, that is not how most Chinese see life in China. They have grown up with the reality of the horrors which result from overpopulation and starvation, and corruption. They have also grown up seeing vast improvements in dealing with these issues, despite the fact China still has a long way to go. But, the Chinese people see the progress being made, and to them, only their form of government could accomplish such pragmatism and efficiency.

I am not sure if Jack thinks I am enamored with China or not. The fact is you could not pay me all the money in the world to live the rest of my life in Communist China. I do however, respect many of China’s accomplishments which are improving life for far more Chinese than it is harming. China is a nation to be reckoned with. Since, their overriding task at hand is improving the quality of life for its people. The day the people realize progress is no longer being made, is the day the next revolution begins in earnest.

Our own country was founded upon the belief that revolution is warranted and justified when government fails its people. That has lost its meaning for the most part in America. Not so, in China. Their last revolution still has living participants, though their numbers are dwindling.

sanger:

You are incorrect about Hong Kong. While it is true there is friction with how Beijing is handling it, this is more a bureaucratic problem. I have been in Hong Kong repeatedly and I see the change everytime I visit.

As for Tibet, the Politburo is taking a page from the Israelis and settling thousands of ethnic Chinese into the Tibetan Homeland. In a few more years, there won’t BE a Tibetan People anymore.

David

Thanks for thinking of me.

I feel as you do. I admire the Chinese achievements, but I don’t admire everything about China. The current government is oppessive, inefficient and corrupt and I know in my lifetime and probably those of my children life for most people in China will suck by U.S. standards, but be great by local standards.

I think we can also agree on nuance. In too many post, people can’t seem to make a choice among a menu of good and bad alternatives. It is possible to support some aspects of something and not particularly like the rest or to support at one time and oppose on another when conditions change. Even evil dictators in some times and places can do some good things (think of the Volkswagen and the autobahn) but you wouldn’t want to take the whole package.

Yes, we are in agreement Jack. This is the kind of rational and sophisticated thinking a host of voters on both sides hate. It appears to growing minorities in each party, that this kind of thinking leads to unpredictability and relativsm which makes them insecure. What they don’t realize is that real life is unpredictable prior to human assessment, and given the fluid nature of circumstances over time and distance, the best or greatest good decisions must be dependent on the obvious and subtle differences that exist between what worked in the past, and what should be recommended in the present.

Damned liberal arts education! It probably stimulates more aspirin sales than any other factor.

If you want to see China have the same problems with their work force and quality of their products, lets send them our labor unions.
I’ve noticed that nonuion products a better made than union made products. Maybe that’s because it’s easier to fire a nonunion employee for not doing a good job.

Ron Brown:

It figures you would oppose Labor Unions. Before Labor Unions came, American Workers lived a lot worse than Chinese Workers of today. It does not surprise me you support Child Labor and unsafe working conditions. Everything for a profit, eh?

Just a side note about china.

Reading about the history of the chinese steel industry is very interesting indeed.

It evolved from total useless garbage to the best in the world. And in quite a short time frame.
Most of the scrap steel in America is chipped and shiped to china now. Well perhaps not “Most”, but a hell of alot of it.

China is a long way from entering the world of civilized nations. Get acquainted with China’s human rights abuse. It is frightful and disgusting. Don’t glorify a despotic system.

Perplexed,

“Excuse me, but didn’t one of China’s generals just threaten to nuke us?”

If we interfere with Taiwan, yes. Whether or not China would actually do that remains to be seen.

I was merely pointing out that we are a far more militant/aggressive nation than China. Or perhaps I should say imperialistic. In any event, nothing will come of this as long as the U.S. doesn’t start sticking its nose in China’s business.

David,

“You mean they don’t have a conscience about the Maoist purge and reeducation centers? They don’t have any guilt over slaughter of the peaceful Tibetans? They don’t have any conscience over flooding 100’s of thousands of families out of their homes for their 9th wonder of the world Dam project?”

That is correct.

Dee Lee,

Our human rights violations were just as bad during our Industrial Age. I’m sure many people would have liked to change the working conditions but at the time it just wasn’t feasible. Similarly, China cannot pragmatically change its working conditions without hurting its growth.

Ron Brown:

It figures you would oppose Labor Unions. Before Labor Unions came, American Workers lived a lot worse than Chinese Workers of today. It does not surprise me you support Child Labor and unsafe working conditions. Everything for a profit, eh?

Posted by: Aldous at July 21, 2005 09:35 PM

How did you ever guess?

Realy, NO I DON’T SUPPORT CHILD LABOR OR UNSAFE WORKING CONDITIONS.
Unions may have served a purpose at one time. But today all they want is MORE MONEY at the expense of their members as well a businesses.
In a neighboring town the union recently went on strike at one of the factories. They were out for about three weeks, settled for $.21 an hour raise.
The union then turned around and raised their dues $15 a week. Now don’t tell me that they did their members any favors. Tell it to the workers who got screwed.

Zeek…..Surely you jest that U.S. human rights abuse was just as bad as the Chinese today. Granted there was child labor, long hours, miserable pay and sometimes brutal conflict. BUT, the government put a stop to it.The federal government was not jailing and killing people as a matter of practice..

In China it is the government that sponsors the abuse.

If you want to refer to treatment of the Indian and the negro, ok, but we grew out of that. China has a long way to go. Get educated on the subject.

Dee Lee,

“BUT, the government put a stop to it.”

Lol, most of the time it was because corrupt government officials were turning a blind eye that bosses were able to get away with their own corrupt practices. I suggest you read The Jungle.

“In China it is the government that sponsors the abuse.”

Eh, through working conditions? How the hell does that work?

“China has a long way to go.”

Obviously.

“Get educated on the subject.”

My, my, aren’t we patronizing? Perhaps you would like to explain what makes you such an expert on the subject. From what you’ve been telling me it sounds as though you’ve never been in China in the past decade (if ever).

Zeek.

1, The fact remains that the U.S. government did put an end to abuses.Child labor laws, work week hours, safety rules, etc,

2. Not sure I get your point about working conditions /government/ abuse. It is the Chinese government that controls the conditions and demands subservience of the people.

3.Yes, I have been there, but it was a long time ago. So what? I haven’t been to the moon, but I can share discourse about it.

4. Sorry if I sounded patronizing, but you sound so dogmatic , and I question anyone that …..well. let’s us just say I question anyone.

Uh, Mike…Isn’t the U.S. the ONLY country in the world with a forwardly deployed Navy? Is it not reasonable for this to be considered a threat to neighboring countries?

And then you look at the fact that we’re STILL in Iraq for God knows why and for how long. Wouldn’t this make a foreign country nervous because of such a reckless and non-conclusive decision?

I’m so skeptical of our intentions, but I’ve learned one thing: FOLLOW THE MONEY. I believe in the golden rule: those who have all the gold, make all the rules. And I’d be DAMN certain that the rules are made to PROTECT those who have all the gold.

I stopped believing the sound bites on TV from our politicians, and started looking at who’s benefiting from our foreign policy. And I hope others are smart enough to do the same…