Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

“Canada, along with many Western nations, is being so tolerant of other cultures that it is losing its own”

America has already lost this war Mike.
Diversity has already ruined this country and sadly, I don’t think your country is too far behind.

kctim said: “Diversity has already ruined this country and sadly, I don’t think your country is too far behind.”

Sounds like something from a KKK or neo-nazi meeting. Guess this is one more ideological divide. The left views diversity as one of America’s great strengths, and the right as one of America’s great liabilities. I am no Democrat, but, I will side with the Left on this issue 24/7/365.

What are you talking about? Diversity IS our country. It’s forced conformity that would ruin our nation.

What we have here is a higher standard that does indeed restrain us. But what’s the alternative? Institutionalized racism, patronizing attitudes towards developing countries, and being just as vicious as these terrorists we hate?

It’s like I’ve said before: Paranoia is a waste of good suspicion. If race and ethnicity rather than evidence and the actual commission of a crime define your methods, you will be saddled with an excess of suspects to begin with.

However, if your suspicion of an immigrant comes from the fact that he’s associated with a radical cleric’s mosque, which has put out an inordinate number of identified terrorists, then I’d say be suspicious. Ethnicity and religion are not the reasons to be suspicious of foreigners. It’s who they keep company with.

This is important for another reason: recruitment of potential sources. If a person checks out as clean of inordinate influence from the terrorists, we could recruit them to become part of the groups themselves, have spies on the inside.

In the end, the alienation of our Arab and Muslim neighbors only serves Bin Laden’s purposes. We should get the bad guys, befriend the good guys, and win the day without beating the crap out of our own counterterrorism efforts by getting racist about it.

I’m in USA… also,

I have no problem with any race/ethnicity that happily wants to become an American (learn english, abide by our legal systems). That is what makes the USA strong. But, when we turn into a country with multiple visible cultures, then tension occurs.

David,
Don’t put all people on the right against diversity. I share much more of the views of the right than I do left but, I as well as many others on the right, understand that this country was based on others coming over here from abroad. We don’t beieve in depriving anyone the Right to life, liberty, and happiness, but We don’t think it should be done at the expense of the people that are already here. Endangering the lives of Americans or Canadians for the sake of diversity is just not something I believe is in the best interest of Our countries.

I’d have to agree with Mike on this one. Political correctness does censor much public opinion and deems people racist/islamophobic for even being the slightest concerned about Islam taking advantage of our freedoms to use against us. Even Thomas Friedman has claimed “And the West will do it in a rough, crude way - by simply shutting them out, denying them visas and making every Muslim in its midst guilty until proven innocent.” In this War on Terrorism we must understand what kind of terrorism we are fighting - Islamic terrorism. Political correctness at it again here. We can’t even name our enemy so we broadly label our military actions to be categorized in a ‘War on Terrorism’.

“Sounds like something from a KKK or neo-nazi meeting”

Why David? Because I don’t believe in seperating people into groups?
African Americans, Asian Americans, Irish Americans, Hispanic Americans. Why not be as proud to be an American?
Maybe instead of pandering for the African American, Hispanic, Asian etc. vote, politicians could pander for the American vote.
Respecting people no matter who or where they came from is great. The problems started when that became more important than being an American.
Its amazing how being proud to be an American is now equal to being a racist.

Great post and follow-up Mike T. and no matter what some will say, there is no harm in loving your country, its culture or your fellow countrymen.

Mike T., KCTim,
Well said.

The continuation of Life, Liberty, and Happiness depends greatly on the defense of Language, Borders, and Culture. All Americans welcome immigrants for it is who we are, however we are assimilated immigrants with these commonalities that bind us. All immigration first of all needs to be legal (borders), secondly all immigrants need to learn our language and respect our culture; ie. The Bill of Rights, free markets, free speech, etc. This is asking nothing more than was asked of our forefathers and it is not an attempt to diminish their culture of origin. All immigrants should never feel wrong to celebrate their unique culture because America is strengthened by diversity, and America will continue to be strong if our language, borders and culture are respected.

David, the previous statement comes from the right side of the aisle, not exactly how you framed it in your earlier post.

kctim, my comment responded to your words. Not your beliefs which you did not make explicit. You said diversity has ruined this country. My comment stands on its own merit. Yours of course, need wiggle room, obviously by your reply.

jay, I suggest you re read my comment.

We are the USA
We are great, glorious, mighty and free.
We showcase our faults.
We speak English.
For those leaving their former shores and coming to these shores—-we adopt; you adapt.
On a moral plane, the world outside the US is a dismal failure.

People of many faiths come here and exist with minimal interference
People of many ethnic backgrounds come here and exist with minimal interference.

HONOR DIVERSITY
Honor Diversity is a buzz phrase of the Queers (they call themselves that, so I guess I can use the same word) for accept me or else.

A cultural diversity group demanded that a party, living peacefully at their home, and flying a confederate flag, should remove that flag because it was an embarassment to the group. I personally would not fly the confederate flag or even possess one. The home owner has the right to fly one, though with or without the approval of the diversity group. They want you to be tolerant of them but they feel they do not have to reciprocate.

Terrorism is done in a myriad of ways. It can be to the mind, to the body, to the principles of an individual.

The War on Terrorism is one that must be fought by each and every one of us on a 24/7 basis. The War starts in our hearts. Live up to the principles that brought you to a place of peace concerning your own thoughts and moral compass.

David, your quote, “the right sees diversity as one of America’s great liabilities, I will side the left on this one”. Am I wrong?

Jay,
This is one issue where you & I are on the same page.

In the education establishment, ‘honoring diversity’ makes a virtue of necessity. Some districts are stressed by rapidly changing demographics; emphasizing acceptance & tolerance of others is not just teaching a fine ideal, it is absolutely necessary.

Everyone would agree that tolerance & acceptance are virtues.

The change in the education establishment came about when ‘honoring diversity’ replaced ‘the melting pot.’

As someone else put it, we want to see ‘Muslims living in America become American Muslims.’

We want ‘a melting pot.’

Extend this to the concept of public education; as a critical component of social cohesion, public schools unify our culture like no other institution.

We need more immigrants, many more- legal immigrants- so let’s open the door, and let them in! It’s a fundamental part of American optimism. Honor diversity? Of course. But let’s make the opportunity available to join in, be citizens, & participate in the national life to the fullest extent.

It depends on how you define diversity.

Diversity in investment means you invest in a variety of instruments. It doesn’t mean you treat them all equally or strive to have a portfolio representative of all possible types.

Natural diversity also means there are a variety of things represented. But it doesn’t mean they are represented equally everywhere or that the ones that don’t adapt to particular places are favored. On the contrary, diversity is important because it provides synergy.

America has always been diverse. That means a variety of people come to the U.S. where they adapt to each other and change. They copy what is best in other cultures and abandon what is less valuable. That is why I prefer tacos to bigos (an E. European dish made with cabbage and mostly fat)

Diversity takes a wrong turn when we “celebrate differences” What we should celebrate is what each culture does well. Trying to maintain the culture of your grandparents is just silly. Their culture was an adaptation to their circumstances. So should ours be.

Put all the cultures together and take what is best and you have America.

Why is it that expecting assimilation, is considered racist?

We are a melting pot, so lets start melting people. No more “Little China”,”Mexican cities”, and any other thing that causes seperation!

First of all, the people coming here are fleeing something, so why would they want to build the same thing here? I know the answer to that, they still hate us they just want to make American $$$$$! Well guess what, I’m sick of being used, if we’re not good enough neither is our $$$$$!!!!!

People who really want to be Americans do just that…..others just use, separate and whine!

phx8 said…

“We need more immigrants, many more- legal immigrants- so let’s open the door, and let them in! It’s a fundamental part of American optimism. Honor diversity? Of course. But let’s make the opportunity available to join in, be citizens, & participate in the national life to the fullest extent.”

“Legal” of course is the key.

I say that we should only open the door so wide, meaning that we have an obligation to folks already living here and are citizens first.

Further, I believe that if it is not your intent to become a citizen we need to establish a time frame as to when you wear out your welcome.

Also, you get a specified amount of time to learn to read and write our national language which is English. (A year should be sufficient)

You must register as an alien and report periodically your whereabouts and status.

You must have a job abd you must pay taxes. Unless you are a student. Also student status expires with your first college degree.

While in this country you will obey and be entitled to most freedoms provided by American Laws. Once convicted of a crime, you are on a plane back to where you came from.

You may not purchase or own a weapon.

Btw, a clarification. I do not acsribe to the Michael Savage version of Language, Borders, Culture. That thinking can contain an underlying message of intolerance, hatred, & xenophobia. Assimilation is a non-violent and voluntary (& arguably coercive) process.

Someone mentioned that ‘honoring diversity’ is a cover for the homosexual agenda. Accepting different sexual orientations is only one small component of the larger idea of honoring diversity.

It’s worth noting the high schoolers today have made a lot of progress when it comes to tolerance in this area, miles of progress compared to the atmosphere of 30 years ago.

Traci, I don’t see where anyone here who is pro-diversity is arguing against assimilation. But, assimilation to what extent is a good question? Do you expect American Indians to give up tribal dances and historic costumes for celebrations, or their fluted and drummed music, or even their native tongue? Let us not forget that it was Navaho native tongue that gave our WWII soldiers an uncrackable code for defeating the Japanese.

If Muslim American women want to wear headscarves and Jewish men want to wear Yamikas (sp?), what is the harm? Our intelligence services are in desperate need of Arabic speaking loyal Americans. Are you suggesting we should push assimilation to the extent that 2nd generation immigrants lose their native tongues? What a tragic loss of intelligence resource that would be.

I really don’t think you get it. Diversity is a strength, as is assimilation, and the two are not mutually exclusive by any means. Not rationally anyway. Now prejudice and irrational thinking like that of the KKK and neo-nazi’s will continue to see diversity as a threat. But, it’s not, it is a huge American asset.

“My comment stands on its own merit. Yours of course, need wiggle room, obviously by your reply”

BS and I don’t need any wiggle room.
These labels used in the name of diversity have divided our country and there is no turning back.
It is now more important to be whatever-American than it is to be an American.
Instead of teaching American history in school, they now waste valuable time telling our kids about other cultures so that they will “better understand” them.

No matter how subtle, associating the right, or those who agree with them as racists, is very telling.

Jack said: “Diversity takes a wrong turn when we �celebrate differences�”

That is absurd, Jack. Celebrating differences is what preserves them and passes them on from generation to generation. Thank god we had Navaho’s who still spoke native tongue in WWII. Thank god there are loyal 2nd and 3rd generation Arabic speaking Americans from which our intelligence agencies can recruit into service in our war against Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorism.

Your thinking on this would deny us some of the very difference resources we desperately need. Your position on this could not be more wrong.

kctim said: “It is now more important to be whatever-American than it is to be an American.”

That is BS, kctim. According to whom is that true? Certainly not the immigrants themselves according to polls. Being American is more important. That is why they came here.

“our national language which is English”

There is nantional language

Correction: there is NO national language

kctim said: “Instead of teaching American history in school, they now waste valuable time telling our kids about other cultures so that they will “better understand” them.”

How can one teach national history when the nation was founded on immigration from all over the world, and NOT teach multiculturalism which influences our foods, our textiles, our fashions, our art, our music, our politics, our religions, our language?

You are charging windmills here kctim, and it appears you have prejudged diversity as an evil. That is as you say, very telling.

David~

Please don’t assume to tell me I don’t get it o.k.!

First off I worked as a supervisor at a factory in Missouri that was like 85% Mexican.

My job required me to learn spanish words to keep them productive……you know what…undelay(sp) this!!!!!!Out of the whole 85% there was a grand total of 10 people that desired to learn English so you spent your time getting translators to communicate! They would laugh their heads off that you had to do that and would ABSOLUTELY refuse to learn by choice!!!! Blatant frickin’ rudeness, and I’m not ashamed to say, if I would have had my choice I would have sent them home on a banana boat!!!I also still don’t see where the steriotype of hardworkers came from either……I certainly didn’t experience it!

Do whatever you like w/ your “culture” be proud, pass it down, etc.!!!But if you can’t function productively in our society it’s time to return to your beloved culture!

David~

Once again w/ the polls….according to exit polls, Kerry is our president! Of coarse when asked immigrants are going to say “we love America” would you honestly expect them to say different? First off many were probably illegal and fearful they would get sent home(to the place that is so horrible but still better than America in their eyes)!

Traci, sounds like you are reacting to illegal Hispanic immigrants, as opposed to legal immigrants of all cultures. If that is the case, it seems to me what you should be championing is another President, and an immigration policy that works, which in turn requires vastly improved border security and control as well as huge disincentives to American employers for hiring illegal immigrants.

I am for all of those measures. Like I said, assimilation and cultural differences are not mutually exlusive.

Traci,
I can appreciate your post relating when you were a supervisor. I spent my entire life in the apparel and textile industry and held every position one can hold including owning my own business. I too had to learn spanish. It is amazing that the spanish speaking workers that you try to deal with don’t seem to understand and even laugh at you over your difficulty, KNOW HOW TO DETERMINE THEIR PAY, THEIR RIGHTS, THEIR BREAKTIMES, WHERE THE OTB PLACE IS AND THE BEER JOINT.THEY WERE ALSO QUITE ADEPT AT BREAKING THEIR OWN MACHINES SO THEY COULD SIT AROUND ON DOWN TIME.

Voice of reason,
You want to split hairs. You know damn well when we refer to National language we are talking about English. Get over it.

David Remer,
The whatever-American issue. I dont give a flying you know what about the polls you refer to. When you are talking to an individual who is an immigrant in our country they will constantly make comparisons by saying “in my country, we do so and so”. America is not their country, never will be. What they want is the American dream. After being here for 20 years they will still compare “in my country to the way something is here. You are an idealist, when you say..

“That is BS, kctim. According to whom is that true? Certainly not the immigrants themselves according to polls. Being American is more important. That is why they came here.”

you are making a completely disingenuous statement. Whatever poll you got that from is ridiculously inaccurate.

steve smith, I will leave it to you to prejudge polls out of hand in the same way your statements appear to do with people of ethnic backgrounds. We see the true color of some who find affinity in the Red column, that is for sure.

I must however state, also, that there is a great deal of intelligent and rational mental work going on in this Red column as evidence by others here of a conservative or Republican bent. It is obvious though by the polarizied comments of conservatives in this column that the GOP is suffering the same BIG TENT schisms that plagued the Democratic Party when it housed the KKK back in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s.

David

I didn’t make myself clear enough about diversity.

I don’t have anything for or against people doing whatever they want within the law an some differences are good and useful. That is what we know from diversity in investments and diversity in nature. But we need not celebrate differences just because they are different.

If my father was a horse thief, and his father was a horse thief, it doesn’t mean I have to follow in their cultural footsteps. The same goes for unhealthy eating habits. Many traditional foods are awful for your health. Some cultural habit habits ceased to be useful. We should change, adapt and improve.

I also believe it is sometimes good to maintain traditions.

Did you ever read the historian Oswald Spengler? His thesis was that cultures had lives, like people. They grew, matured and died. One culture really couldn’t learn much of value from another. They had separate existences. This way of thinking was adopted by racists and fascists. It fit with their idea of “their” people.

In fact, they were wrong about cultures. Cultures change every day. They splinter and recombine in new forms. The persistence of a particular culture is merely an illusion. Like a movie made up of many separate pictures viewed at high speed.

David, I don’t think we are really talking about different things. From your writing, I know you also believe in the “liberal” view of culture. It is unfortunate the PC view of culture has divided our society into little fiefdoms. On the other hand, it is not really working. America overcomes narrow group interests in almost all cases. We have diversity all the time, but it is changing diversity. The group mix and the characteristics of the groups is in constant flux and adaptation. That is the genius of America.

Voice of Reason, here is a little eye opener for you, A few years back, California actually passed legislation stating that English is the official language of the state. That piece of legislation, in my opinion, will soon find it’s way to the federal level.

David, those who forget the past are bound to repeat it. Multi-culturalism and American History are not mutually exclusive either. American History must continue to be a requirement in our school curriculum’s for the absence of it will lead to the slow dismantling of one of the greatest documents ever written, The Constitution of the United States. Celebrate multi-culturalism indeed, but never lose sight of the glue that holds us together; language, borders and culture.

Jack, we do agree. What your explaining is what I meant by saying cultural diversity and assimilation are not mutually exclusive.

I find the loyalty and patriotism of 1st and 2nd generation immigrants the strongest of all. Sounds like an odd position, but let me explain. Despite the fact that most 1st generation Americans from non-speaking countries have not fully adopted English as a language, as part of their citizenship, they are by far more knowledgeable of the Constitution of the U.S. and what it says, than most 3rd or greater generations of Americas. The fact that they are willing to swear loyalty to the contents of Constitution as well as recite with conviction the Pledge of Allegiance, has far more meaning than natural born American’s who claim patriotism and allegiance to America without even knowing what is in the Constitution and its Bill of Rights.

The irony is that legal 1st and 2nd generation immigrants are the ones who stand out as being most foreign in culture and language and tradition, yet, as a group, they are probably the most loyal to what America stands for as any other group in America.

Jay, we agree entirely.

Jay, but I would add the most important glue of all that binds us together, the Constitution of the U.S. and all of the ideals and principles it embodies.

My grandparents all came from different countries - legally. They learned English, accepted American laws, sent their children to American schools to learn about American history. During WWII, the Japanese were rounded up and placed into interment camps. Afterwards, the reasons were proven to be poor at best. We don’t do that anymore, but I would expect an AMERICAN of Arab descent to back AMERICAN interests. Just like I expect all Americans to back America. Diversity in cultural identities is great for cuisine, traditions, religion - not the law or the Unity of the UNITED STATES.

Political correctness? Damn, if there is no more abused phrase than that, I’ve yet to find it. When we object to people blaming Islam itself for the violence, we’re told we’re being too p.c.. When we object to people making racial stereotypes and casting suspicion on all Arabs and people of the Middle East, we’re told we’re too p.c.

You know what too much political correctness is? Ignoring specific facts or not looking into legitimate lines of inquiry for the sake of not insulting an ethnic group. That’s where I draw the line. Things like that can always be done delicately. It’s when we start defending prejudice and unfounded generalizations that I draw the line in the other direction. A little political correctness (read: respect for your equals) is not a bad thing.

Thing is, we have supported some pretty nasty customers in our time. We do deserve a mountain of criticism for things done over our history. Thing is, though, most Americans are oblivious to what’s been done in their name. America is not simple, nor is it without it’s darkside, but where America shines, it shines bright.

But a lot of that comes from the very nature of our system of governance: it is a system built on the idea that ordinary citizens can hold a government accountable without violent revolution, that we can be smart enough, wise enough, and good enough as people to not have to be rule by a few absolutely permanent, unaccountable elites.

But that means we can’t leave it to others to understand the rest of the world. We can’t afford to be ignorant, we can’t afford to act off our prejudices, and we certainly can’t afford to fart around with emotionally satisfying or overly simplified solutions that just muddy things up further.

We will not win this war by descending to the level of the terrorists. The way this kind of game works, is they inspire the worst in us, then use it to turn people both here and abroad against our government’s policy. We must outwit them in their propaganda game.

The possibility exists. There is some positive reaction in the Arab world to the attacks, but according to a recent CNN article, a great deal of the response is negative. They see that the terrorists are turning large parts of the world against their faith, against their people. They’re seeing the dark side of the dreams of these radicals, and it scares them as much as it does us. Should we give in to our worst impulses and waste the wish of these people to coexist with us, or should we take advantage of changing attitudes over there, and defeat the terrorists in the battle that matters most: their support.

Now you might call that a straitjacket, but I call it necessary restraint.

Better yet, lets call it something else: discipline.

There is another word for it, Stephen, one which a significant number on the right (and left for that matter), for various reasons, cannot partake in: the word is sophisticated.

Jennifer, there is an excellent article depicting why it is unwise to group immigrants into any category regarding American policy, you may find it enlightening. I did. A DIFFERENT VIEW OF IRAQ WAR; MULTILINGUAL SURVEY FINDS DISPARITY AMONG IMMIGRANTS’ OPINIONS.

David Remer,

I respect your opinion. For you to say that “the polls say” and not provide more than that as reference and then say that I dismiss them out of hand is a bit presumptuous. In any case, I will generally believe something that you say when you reference a poll.

When you are accepting what polls say as opposed to what is actually happening in real life in this instance, cited by someone with over 45 years of experience hearing this type of response from immigrants (and naturalized citizens) I am surprised that their word is not good enough.

When I say that people will reference “in my country” when comparing a similar situation to what they are experiencing in America, I am speaking the truth.

When you say polls say different, what kind of poll would you be taliking about. If anything you would mean a survey. Moreover if the information you claim is accurate was gathered by an organized survey or poll, what answer do you think the immigrant would give. I would be amazed if under those conditions he didn’t start singing the Star Spangled Banner for fear that some negative outcome was pending.

You are wrong on this one David.

If your reference to the true color of some is said to infer a racial bias, I will admit that I have a bias that by its very nature would have to be called racial since it involves better conditions for immigrants than American citizens.

If you feel it is wrong to expect someone living in America to have to speak, read and write the language so that we don’t have to have signs printed in other languages, if it is wrong to expect that when you make a customer service call you don’t have to hear it in two languages, if it is wrong for an American to be unemployed and an immigrant working, and a big one-for an American Citizen of limited means to have difficulty getting medical attention and drugs and the immigrant getting it with little trouble,
if it is wrong for American Citizens in Appalachia and elsewhere not to have indoor
plumbing but immigrants have it and finally, if it is wrong for an American citizen to get a small business loan to open a shop yet the immigrant can, then I submit that you are far out of touch of reality you should take a crash course.

Steve Smith, Millions of immigrants 1st and 2nd generation in America are Americans, just as American as Abraham Lincoln or Thurgood Marshall. The fact that your comment distinguishes immigrants from Americans in almost every one of your references speaks volumes about prejudice in action.

An observation

There have been several references to Muslim and Arab all being the same. That is not so. There are many Arabs that are not Muslim. The Muslims are mainly made up of Asians, Arabs and Africaners. The Muslimss make up a religion or faith.

David Remer,

You know full well that I am NOT talking about immigrants who are Naturalized Citizens (although there are a few who will still compare “in my country) but, immigrants who are living in this country and are not citizens and seem to have no intention of becoming citizens.

Any ethnic prejudice that I may have would NEVER extend to a citizen of this country. I would and do hold a biased opinion of ANYONE who is a deadbeat and makes no effort to improve his/her status however.

Steve, how could I possibly know that meant illegal immigrants when you did not specify? You used the word immigrants vs. Americans. You never specified until your last comment what you meant by immigrants. Unspecified, the word immigrants means the universe of immigrants, legal, illegal, and otherwise.

Thank you for clarifying.

Sounds like the Right is preparing to play the Blame Game again. I guess the Republicans expect an attack on US Soil soon despite Bush’s rhetoric and are preparing themselves.

Blame the Liberals.

Blame the Liberal Media.

Blame the Democrats.

Blame the UN.

Blame the Diversity.

Blame the Rain.

Blah, blah, blah.

Stephen Daugherty,

You know nothing about what is being an American! The core value of the American community has always been, and should always be, the Christian Value! This country is badly damaged by the Liberal doctrines and ideology which introduced laws that allows the mass immigration of lower quality people. They, e.g. the Muslim and Mexican and Asian, has overwhelmed our country and degraded us! American is a Christian country. Full stop.

Ian, I am convinced Stephen knows quite a bit more about being an American than you do. I am a Christian conservative and will debate the left at every opportunity, but rhetoric such as that serves nothing. That kind of speech is as bad coming from the right as it is coming from the left and it only serves to further polarize our country. This country was founded on Judeo-Christian values but the true beauty of being a Christian, Ian, is the acceptance and love of all. I personally know many great, great people that happen to be of the minority groups you mentioned and I consider them to be Americans as much as anybody. And finally, “lower quality people”, Ian, get re-acquainted with God, He might just have something to say to you. Until then, God speed my freind.

Alduos, that post is a great example of what Ian posted only coming from the left. I am quite sure that Bush and the Reps will blame the TERRORISTS is there should be any attack, for it is they who are solely responsible. I would also point out that we have not been attacked and despite the unfounded outcry of the Patriot Act, I, personally have not lost one bit of freedom, save for the airport security, and do feel quite safe.

David,

Sorry if I did not convey originally that I was addressing “immigrants” who are living in this country and are NON CITIZENS. Unfortunately my failure to communicate that fact properly led to my posts becoming much to “spirited” - sorry!

My scenario however is still intended to include people who are here legally (I guess this would be resident alien status) and, of course illegally.

David
I think we are talking about two different things here.
You are talking about accepting people of different cultures when they become Americans. I have no problem with that at all.
I am talking about forcing their culture onto everybody.
If people wish to have a fair and celebrate different cultures and diversity, I don’t care, as long as tax-payers money is not used to pay for it.
As it is now, tax money is used to teach it in our schools, community and even to have special parades so that they feel accepted by Americans. If they are Americans, they have already been accepted.
I don’t want schools wasting tax money and my kids time by telling them about Jewish people, arabs, islam, kwanza, christmas or whatever.
They should be teaching them how to read, write, do math and about American history.

1st generation immigrants ARE proud to be part of their new country and appreciate the opportunity they have been given, probably more so than alot of born Americans.
The problem is with the 2nd generations and up. They ARE Americans, not whatever-Americans and they promote being whatever-American over that of being an American.

I viewed the heart of Mike T’s post as this quote:
- Retired Liberal MP John Bryden asked, “Mr. Trudeau, you were one of the key architects of multiculturalism and now we are in a situation where many newcomers to Canada consider their ethnicity before being Canadian. Is this the outcome you wanted?” After a moments thought, Mr. Trudeau replied, “No, this is not what I wanted.”

It’s funny how this quote was totally ignored and everybody jumped straight to name-calling and associations.
All in the name of “diversity.”

Being proud to be an American and expecting others who take advantage of our liberties to feel the same way, is not bigotry.

This is not a “Right” vs. “Left” issue. The people on the right sound like they want the borders more closely monitored and the flow of illegal immigrants coming into this country to decrease.

Maybe you should look into Bush’s policies regarding this issue. He feels that illegal immigrants are vital to U.S. agriculture. He has pushed to make it easier for “Migrant Workers” to enter the U.S.

I’ve asked several times, in several posts. Where is all the money for Homeland Security being spent?
It’s obviously not being spent on border security.

Most of the posts that I read(From Those who call themselves “The Right” sounded alot like veiled biggotry.

Traci,
working with a group of factory workers, does’nt make you an expert on their culture. You obviously had a bad experience but you sound like you had some pre conceived notions about them.

Ian Buckland,
Get the help you need and find better ways to get the attention you crave.

An interesting form of immigration is going on in Michigan.
Detroit has a very large arab population. It seems that pregnant arab women come here with a vacation visa, get welfare,have the child(paid 100% by taxpayers), then go home with their brand new US citizen!
Heres the kicker, they are very rich arab women!

Now in 16-18 yrs.will the trained American Jihadist come back to blow us up?
They are a US citizen, we cant keep them out.
They dont need a visa, they can get a legal pasport and drivers license as soon as they get back.
I dont have a link to the story, but I’m sure someone could search and find it.

Makes you wonder?

Andre~

Duh~ my point exactly….I should have been able to go to work and fulfil my duties, cultures should not have been a single part of it……but it was!
Pre conceived notions????WHAT EVER….is this your subliminal way of saying I’m some sort of racist? That would be hilarious if you actually knew me!
I’m curious though, what part of my post suggests that I am or even want to be an expert on their culture?

Beagle~

The sad thing is they don’t have to go through all that work even to get a drivers license here in Michigan, they give them to illegals!!!!!Meanwhile I’m searching my entire house looking for that 3rd form of identification!

Interesting indeed Beagle. Here in Ireland, our laws granted citizenship to anyone born on the island of Ireland. We had a hugely growing influx of women in very late pregnancy into Ireland who would not have qualified for immigrant status, seeking asylum. Mostly they came from African countries. Last year a referendum was carried out to change the citizenship criteria. Now, citizenship cannot be aquired simply by presenting in late pregnancy. Children born here must have a parent resident here for a minimum period prior to the birth. Surprise surprise, the problem of late pregnancy asylum seekers has disappeared.

Aldous,

I have been laughing for 15 minutes after reading your post.

You, the absolute king of assigning blame to something or someone (actually you have no equal) are now suggesting that the Right is now preparing to play the blame game.

Your examples are priceless.

Thanks,

Paul Euro,

THANK YOU. That was exactly the point I was eludeing to.
Our citizenship laws are insane!

I’m a 2nd generation American (hence my blogging alias “Gandhi”). I’m half-Indian, but I’m an American first.

1st generation immigrants ARE proud to be part of their new country and appreciate the opportunity they have been given, probably more so than alot of born Americans. The problem is with the 2nd generations and up.

Now, THAT’s BS. Don’t try to generalize so much, Kctim. I understood what you were trying to communicate earlier, but I think you’ve lost it now.

I can sympathize with Americans who had to work with lazy Mexicans who refused to learn English. (I learned to descriminate less once I met some hard-working Mexicans). What many on the Right are complaing about is not diversity itself, nor the un-naturalized immigrant. Their complaint is with the non-conforming immigrant. The fact is, there are un-American, non-conformists among both immigrants and citizens. People who are too lazy to learn the English language should get lost, in my opinion. This includes white Americans who were too lazy to pay attention in their high school English class!

Immigrants make America. When I think of people who have exemplified what it means to be American, I think of:

-My friend Milen, a Bulgarian immigrant, who couldn’t speak English when he arrived in the country, and a couple years later got an 800 verbal score on his SAT.

-My dad, who hitchhiked peniless over the Canadian border on the back of a tractor, and built the leading 5-axis engineering company in the world - starting in our basement.

-My English supervisor at work, who hates sports, but chose to become an ardent Red Sox and Patriots fan so that he could relate to others.

-My friend Moses, a 2nd-generation immigrant from Cape Verde, who is studying to become a doctor. (The rest of his family is on rotation from jail, and none of them even attempted college).

People have the tendency to confuse what we don’t like about another culture with skin color - hence, racism. This should be evident from “black” culture - how many black are actually black? (I have several black friends, and they’re various shades of brown.) In fact, what many dislike about “blacks” is the specific demographic subset of impoverished Southern culture. There are plenty of “white-trash” whites from there as well. I happen to know “blacks” who are not from that culture, and act completely differently from their southern brothers.

Immigrants who want to live here need to learn and adapt to our language, our laws, our constitution, and our heritage. Naturalized Americans ought to help immigrants adapt to their living environment, and try to learn something from the hard-working immigrant. American culture is a byproduct of this process of naturalization and interaction. What’s so complicated about that?

As a side note, both Jack and David are correct.

Oh yeah, one other thing. Americans ought to give other cultures some respect by at least learning the names of other countries, and pronouncing/spelling other peoples’ names correctly. Even on Watchblog, people misspell “Gandhi” four out of five times. That’s just plain rude, especially after it’s already spelled for you at the bottom of every post. Most immigrants are far more polite.

Gandhi
Please explain why its BS.
In reality, there is no such thing as a 2nd+ generation immigrant. Legal immigrants come to this country and become Americans. Their children are born here and are Americans. Being an American and appreciating all things about America should be more important to them.
Immigrants should remember life before and after they became an American, their children are only American and should respect that fact.

“People have the tendency to confuse what we don’t like about another culture with skin color - hence, racism”

Which is where you and David are wrong.
MY post was not about that, it was solely about how people have choosen to be whatever-American over being an American. About how our govt, our schools and the people have decided that teaching and learning about other cultures is more important than teaching and learning about America.

“Americans ought to give other cultures some respect”

Only if they want to Gandhi and its not up to you, me or the govt to dictate if they do or not.
And the hell with other cultures, I would be happy if Americans started respecting what it means to be an American.

“Most immigrants are far more polite.”

Uh, so what. Thanks for your “opinion” on that I guess.
I prefer to judge a man by his character though.

Kctim:

MY post was not about that, it was solely about how people have choosen to be whatever-American over being an American.

Well, since you disagree with me, you clearly didn’t read the first line of my post then. “I’m half-Indian, but I’m an American first.” No one should become an American citizen if their national loyalty is exceeded by their cultural identity.

There aren’t “2nd generation immigrants”, but there are “2nd generation Americans”. I retain more connectivity to culture outside the U.S. than does the average American, and am much more traveled. As someone else here already said, you can’t learn what it means to be American until you understand where America came from. This nation hasn’t been around very long.

What is American culture? Someone who can say “the hell with other cultures” clearly is living in a box and probably doesn’t have any immigrant friends. People everywhere else in the world are saturated in American culture, whether they like it or not. Americans can only afford to be so self-centered if they refuse to acknowledge American history.

Almost every immigrant I’ve met is more respectful of our culture than we are of theirs. And I’ve known a lot of immigrants, from at least 15 different countries.

OK, maybe your statement wasn’t total BS, but you discounted the experience of 2nd generation Americans. Most have gone back to visit the country their parents originated from, and are accutely aware of the privelege they have because of their parents coming to America - much more than the “average” American. But it’s certainly difficult to match the experience of being an immigrant.

“Whatever-Americans” are those who have chosen to stay isolated in their culture while living in America. There are many immigrants who do this (the Chinese are probably the worst, from my observation). This is hardly unique to any particular generation, but is likely to be most problematic among those who don’t learn English - and the first generation has the biggest problem with this. It is their descendants who are likely to break free of this cycle out of necessity.

I agree with you on wasting of tax money for diversity.

Living in clusters where a persons ancestry is more prevalent is nothing new. All over this great country of ours one can find “Little Italy”, or Polish conclaves, or Hungarian settlements, or Belgian communities. And more. Those were only representative of the area where I grew up. I had good friends in each and every one of those areas. The first time I got drunk was with a Polish buddy. One of the girls that I dated was Hungarian. No wonder the Gabor sisters were beautiful. This girl was beautiful. My Italian friends were terrific gamblers. The Belgian buddy had a family that could teach chefs school. And they were, gets this, all very high up on family. Also, they were, no matter how long or short their tenure here in the USA, Americans without prefix. I consider it an honor and a priviledge, as I sit here and relate to you, to personally know those people I just mentioned.

Gandhi
I read your first line, ok. It was when you went on the bigotry kick that I disagreed with you.

“No one should become an American citizen if their national loyalty is exceeded by their cultural identity”

I wish I could have written it that way. Only its not the new immigrants that I think are guilty of this. Its the Americans who would rather be whatever-American than an American.

“Someone who can say “the hell with other cultures” clearly is living in a box and probably doesn’t have any immigrant friends”

Please, I have lived in 8 different country’s and know plenty of people from all over the culture grid. I will respect the person who deserves it and if I care about learning anything about their culture, I will ask or do it on my own.

“”Whatever-Americans” are those who have chosen to stay isolated in their culture while living in America”

No, they are those who have chosen to seperate themselves from Americans and wish to impose that culture onto everybody else.

“It is their descendants who are likely to break free of this cycle out of necessity.”

It is their descendants that I am talking about.
American history is ripe with our culture. If an Irish immigrant became an American citizen and made the history books, great. But I don’t have to learn the history of Ireland to realize it and I don’t have to be taught why somebody else thinks the Irish are different so as I don’t hurt their feelings.
If I want to learn about Ireland, I will do it on my own.

Mike’s topic is spot-on and its only going to get worse.

kctim said: “No, they are those who have chosen to seperate themselves from Americans and wish to impose that culture onto everybody else.”

Please provide an example of this.

Traci,

When you begin a statement with “Duh”. Theres really no point in responding, but I must. You claimed that the workers were uninterested in learning english. You labled them “lazy and rude.” There were only 10 who desired to learn by choice.”“They’re fleeing something in their own country.”
I’m sure you had only the best intentions when you stated you wanted to send them all back on a “Banana Boat.”It’s kind of hard to make the insensitive and idiotic statements you made then write that I’m trying to make you look like a biggot. You did that.
I don’t have to suggest that you are prejudice. You’re biggotry was exposed by you.I’m speaking about your ignorance.

All this talk about separation from Americans or cultural separation is quite active. For instance
Arab-American League
League of United Latin American Citizens
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People
Italian-American Clubs
and so on. You get the picture I hope. Ironically, how much cain would be raised if someone were to promote National Association for the Advancement of White People or League of United American Citizens or American League (and not baseball). All of a sudden there would be such a hue and cry about all those negative things one could think about. It sure would be sweet to see organizations promoting America without the prejudice and racist and ethnic attachments.

A, if you wish to retain your comment privileges, cease taking your remarks to other posters here to the personal level calling their remarks idiotic and ignorant as you did in your response to Traci. This will be your only warning.

tom, so it would appear that you oppose the Constituiton’s protected right to free assembly, is that it?

You feel it is unAmerican for American Blacks to assemble in groups to achieve suffrage, or equal rights with other ethnic groups? Do you believe they would have ever achieved and protected their civil rights if they disbanded the NAACP?

There have been white only business clubs at the highest levels of wealth in American society, and they probably still exist. I know there are white only communities here in central Texas despite the fact that a sizeable portion of the labor that sustains those communities businesses is Hispanic. Hispanics are like anyone else, they would like to live close to their work and reduce the cost of the commute. But, strangely, houses for sale in those communities are never really available for sale to non-whites for a host of legal reasons having “nothing” to do with race.

Andre~

Actually I call it truthful!

Uninterested in learning the language….do you have a more PC word than LAZY?

Laughing and making fun of the fact that they were disrupting the work day because of special measures taken just to communicate w/ them…….again do you have a more PC word for RUDE?

Biggotry and good common sense are two seperate issues.
1. These particular people did not earn my respect nor deserve it. They were a waste on the job and protected from firing because the weak ass employers were afraid of the RACIST card!Had I spoken of “po’white trash” “biggot” would not have even come up!
I hate the “sensitivety” factor when speaking of other ethnic groups……..but if you want to trash whites or just plain old Americans it’s perfectly acceptable!
2. I spoke of a group of individuals that I was very framiliar w/! No where in my post did I state anything about aleviating the whole country of Mexicans!

(DUH~) May have been a little rude…..but I still honestly don’t see where you came up w/ the idea that I thought I was an expert on their culture? When I thought I made it clear that I didn’t want to be…I merely wanted to do my job!

David R. Remer
My thrust was not conveyed very well.
I believe that it would be a great day for all Americans to forget those extra labels and prefixes and other self-serving or self-centered ideas, and accept a man or woman or child as what they are. I despise the actions of homosexuals in their lifestyles. I have a number of friends who are homosexual and they accept me and I accept them. They all know where I stand. I do not condemn them as individuals. I do disavow their choice of lifestyles. Basically, I am at peace with those who do not share my values. I would not want the world to be like me. But, I do have some things that I feel would good to emulate.

tom, I apologize, I am not understanding the gist of your comments. How does one separate individuals of a group from a group to which they belong?

I mean, we are talking elementary brain function, here. The human brain distinguishes objects in foreground from the background by discerning differences in color, shape, dimensions, and movement. This is elementary to the survival skills of most most animals, land, air, and sea.

How does one function as a human without discerning these differences amongst other humans? It seems to me that in a free society that permits private and public associations of business people, lawyers, doctors, engineers, veterinarians, labor unions, politicians, etc., it would be unavoidable that associations of persons based on similar or shared cultural, ethnic, religious experience or backgrounds should occur.

It seems to me that if there weren’t an Arab-American association in the US, prior to 9/11, there would have to have been one formed after 9/11 to counteract the natural tendency of the rest of the population to suddenly fear Arab-Americans based on information about the attackers of 9/11.

If business people can assemble into associations to protect their common business interests, why would you have a problem with Arab-Americans assembling their own association to counter potential uninformed and prejudiced reaction to 9/11 and to lobby for the protection of their civil rights as Americans in light of such popular and potentially dangerous reaction by non-Arab Americans?

David R. Remer
The main problem with those ethnic organizations is that they tend to go to extremes rather than promoting good will among all men. They will only stand up for their special interests and not for the common good of all mankind. I have no problem with people wanting to get together for social or professional functions. For instance when was the last time you heard LULAC supporting any Israel position. Or NAACP supporting LULAC. There should be common ground on public policy to advance all mankind not just their own kind.

tom, these groups address the issues of greatest concern to them. The NAACP addresses its number one concern, the census data that shows African Americans suffer shorter lifespans, greater vicitimization of crime, less wages, more incarceration, more health risks in some ways, than other ethnic groups. The NAACP could take on foreign affairs, waste fraud and abuse, but, these are not issues central to commonality that binds them together into an action association.

In order to exert influence over the issues that most concern them as a common group, they must prioritize and focus on those issues which they can have a real potential impact on. It is not that Blacks don’t have an interest in what happens in Israel or Iraq, as individuals, many of them do. But, their group has power by virtue of a limited and well defined purpose common to all its members.

There is a tremendous amount of sociological research on groups, why they form, how they organize and why, and how they can achieve power to effect change. Sociology is a very worthwhile study as it pertains to politics. One doesn’t have to seek a degree in sociology to access a few of the very popular books on such subjects found in any library and gain an appreciation for the principles underlying group behavior. It is a fascinating and very illuminating area of human knowledge that bears directly on American politics, politics anywhere, for that matter.

The main problem with those ethnic organizations is that they tend to go to extremes rather than promoting good will among all men. They will only stand up for their special interests and not for the common good of all mankind.

Doesn’t this go back to the roots of liberal/capitalist philosophy? The free market, in this case a free market of ideas? The concept that if everyone relentlessly pursues their own interests through the market, absent artificial influences, everyone will benefit in the end?

Jerandel

You are right, but only if there is competition. What we had for most of our country’s history was competition. The good ideas survived; bad ones disappeared. You can see it in American houses, music, foods and almost everything else.

Sometime in the 1960s we started emphasizing ethnic identity as something to be celebrated. We were no longer asking everyone to judge and adapt the best to American ways (until they became as Americans as hot dogs and pizza) from others. We said we could not judge and just should value differences. Worse than that, the authorities got involved. This is not working, but it does cause a lot of trouble.

Trying to maintain cultures only kills the vitality of those cultures and ours. Culture is carried in people who change. It is passed imperfectly to the next generation. In a very real sense, a culture doesn’t survive from generation to generation. It is merely copied. Do you have the same culture as your father or grandfather? I sure don’t. They crap they ate, the ideas they had (many bigoted) and their general attitude are sometimes anathema to me. So those important parts of their culture have disappeared and I have replaced them with things I think are much better.

Jack, you don’t know your ethnic history in America. It was NOT the 1960’s that saw an emphasis in the celebration of ethnic identity. Ask any of the older folks in NYC or LA or San Antonio, they will tell you celebrations of ethnic identity have been around as far back as they can remember to the 30’s and even before. Cinco de Mayo has been celebrated since its precipitating event, the victory of the Mexicans over the French army at The Battle Of Puebla in 1862.

The Germans here in Texas have been celebrating Oktoberfest for more than a century. And there are a host of other examples. All that happened in the last 50 years is telecommunications which transmits information and activities of these ongoing celebrations to other communities that didn’t previous know of them. Welcome to the communication age, Jack.

Folks love a good celebration regardless of race or cultural background and here in Texas you will find almost as many non-Hispanics celebrating Cinco de Mayo as Hispanics, or Night in Old San Antonio. Everyone who wears Green on St. Patty’s Day is not Irish in case you haven’t noticed.

So, the notion that somehow the ’60s cultural movements are responsible for ethnic celebrations in America is absurd. The proliferation of TV’s in homes had far, far more to do with national recognition of ethnic celebrations than any other factor.

Andre,

Well, it seems like I sound like a troubled person to you. But honestly, i have a full time, and I work hard and have no particular desire for extra attension.

What I said is my opinion. But unforunately it is also shared by a lot of people — People actually told me how unhappy they are with these “immigrants”.

I don’t know where you are from. But i think you will live happier if you live in Canada.

David
Watch TV or even ask people themselves for your example.
As you and tony are on the naacp, ask a black American how they see themselves. The majority of your answers will be “as an African-American.”
That is wrong.
I am an American, not a white-American or a european-American and I do not place whatever over the fact that I am an American.

“The Germans here in Texas have been celebrating Oktoberfest for more than a century.”

How many 8th generation Americans with German roots refer to themselves as German-Americans? Very, very, very few.
Are we required to attend seminars so we can better understand the German culture? Nope.
Do they celebrate Oktoberfest or promote German culture in schools? Nope.
But yet, hours of precious time are spent on defending and promoting other cultures.

kctim, it is astonishing to me that after our government just this year apologises for failing to pass legislation to halt 5000 lynchings of mostly African Americans in this country, that you pursue this attack on programming that teaches tolerance and respect and pride for America’s ethnic diversity. Simply amazing to me, having been old enough to see the police brutality against peaceably assembled Black Americans marching or riding buses in the South.

David~
What kind of tolorance are they teaching young blacks about gangs in school? Black on black crime is still much higher than white on black crime.

Ian Buckland, how would you respond if I said you would feel better about living in an all white neo-nazi state? (It’s a rhetorical question). Let’s dispense with advising others here where they might be happier living, it is a form of flame baiting which is discouraged here at WatchBlog.

traci, I am sure they are teaching tolerance to young blacks in school. But that has little to do with gangs. Gangs, as tons of research over the last 50 years shows, are a product of a number of sociological factors including black market opportunities for earning money in communities where legitimate opportunities are absent, as well as racial intolerance which causes gangs to form in ethnic groups as a self-defense tactic.

Your implication that gangs are a result of public schools is absurd.

Jack said: “So those important parts of their culture have disappeared and I have replaced them with things I think are much better.”

We have a lot in common here, Jack. My father praised Hitler and believed the world would have been better off if Hitler had won and he believed America would be a great country if we could deport all Blacks back to Africa. It was a contentious upbringing to say the least. His father was German and his Mother a Russian Jew. Go figure…

David~

I was not implying that it was public schools fault!!!!!!!!!I am simply pointing out once again how we focus so much on how “whites” should be tolorant and very little time on how minorities need to be accountable.

I do like your “outsiders” view of gang theories though!
Keep telling yourself that and maybe it will become true!
Having been involved in these situations(gang members, etc.) in my early twenties, I can tell you first hand that all the “political theories” of what makes a gang member is absolutely hilarious and dead wrong!!!

David
Your looking at this as a race issue, it is not.
Teaching about cultures is not the job of the school or govt.
It is up to the individual learn more if they so desire.

“that you pursue this attack on programming that teaches tolerance and respect and pride for America’s ethnic diversity.”

First all, “programming” is completely correct.
Second, I am not attacking anybody’s culture.
Asking people to be proud and honored to be an American first and to not seperate themselves from others is not about race.
We are a diverse country but we should not use that to against somebody and we should not use it for special favors or to promote it over being American.
Making race the focal point is nothing but trying to avoid the subject.

Traci, I grew up in the inner city of Detroit. I too know about gangs first hand, as well as from my psychology degree and the many sociology courses I had to take.

But I understand the need to cover lack of education in such things with a declaration that one’s personal exposure to gangs is the full encyclopedic knowledge of the subject that ever needs to be known. That’s rich, indeed.

kctim said: “Teaching about cultures is not the job of the school or govt.”

Our culture is made up of other nations cultures. It is impossible to teach American history and culture without learning about other cultures which ours is made up of.

Louisiana has multi-generational Americans with a sub-culture that is rooted in French. San Francisco has a large section of town that is Asian. Little Italy, Hamtramick outside Detroit, and Greek Town in downtown Detroit, these cultural enclaves exist in America and are part of American culture.

But, I do not fear for public education which rightfully teaches about America by teaching about other cultures. These schools are run by folks who understand America is multi-cultural and to understand America today and its history, one has to know something of the cultures that were imported.

David~

I do believe that living something is much more factual than studying something….you can argue that if you like though!

“Rich, indeed”
Yes, I find it “rich” also that you are lecturing me on a quality that I view you to have.Kind of a pot calling the kettle black type thing!:)
Oh Well~Cheery-Oh

“It is impossible to teach American history and culture without learning about other cultures which ours is made up of”

But it is possible to teach American history without placing a persons culture above the actions deemed worthy of being history.

Millions of Americans have been and continue to be persecuted for their religious beliefs. Those beliefs are what makes up their culture. Their culture helped create and continues to benefit our country.
So please tell me David, should their culture be promoted by the govt or promoted in public schools?
Afterall, “America is multi-cultural and to understand America today and its history, one has to know something of the cultures that were imported.”

kctim, tell me one school district that does not teach about the Christian pilgrims escaping England’s religious persecution as part of American history.

Your argument continues to fail in my opinion.

I am Sickened that I felt such RAGE with this Individual, please, please tell me that there aren’t more like this guy(I would say something else, but this is on WatchBlog)

You know nothing about what is being an American! The core value of the American community has always been, and should always be, the Christian Value! This country is badly damaged by the Liberal doctrines and ideology which introduced laws that allows the mass immigration of lower quality people. They, e.g. the Muslim and Mexican and Asian, has overwhelmed our country and degraded us! American is a Christian country. Full stop.

Posted by: Ian Buckland at July 12, 2005 07:15 AM

Ian:
I have never read anything remotely close to this, or filled with so much bile. Who’s Doctrine
do you follow? Hitlers’, Stalin’s or Duke’s? Do you have a Permenant Seat at the round table of HATE? Where is your “HOOD”? I’ll bet you don it every night just after dark, when you and the other clansmen gather at the base of the “Lynching Tree”. I am glad that I don’t know you personnally, Then I’d know just what the populace of the country I defended for the last 20+ years were thinking. As a Soldier in the Active Duty Army. There, I met the most loyal people of all faiths, creeds, colors, ethnic backgrounds, sexual orientations, marital status, you name it, I have seen it.
I would give my life for any one of them. But to think that I and “My Comrades in Arms”, were protecting your rights, to spout your vile insulting, discriminating remarks, “MAKES ME SICK”.

They, e.g. the Muslim and Mexican and Asian, has overwhelmed our country and degraded us! American is a Christian country.

Unbelievable, you have managed to lump together, a Religion, a whole continents worth of people and an Ethnic Group, wrap them up in a LAME ATTEMPT to shift the blame for your hate away from where it belongs. WITH YOU!

BTW….I am sick from having had to respond to such vile rants in this day and age.

JPG.

As Always,
Wayne

David, tell me one school district that does teach about the “culture” of these Christian pilgrims as part of American history.
Or if you feel like we must go overseas to find our culture, why not teach about the religious foundations of the pilgrims, what they believed in and why?
What about the Amish or Mennonites? Their cultures have contributed just as much as others.

It is not my argument. It is your refusal to answer a direct question with an honest and direct answer.

kctim,

My school district taught me about the culture of the Puritans and Pilgrims as a part of US history.

Knowing the culture of a country is an important thing to know when studying the historical events of an area or nation. Knowledge of the culture is a vital contex for the reasons individuals did the things they did.

I learned of it in elementary school and again in high school. My 14 y.0. daughter studied the Puritans and their religious persecution just last year in American history. Texas text books are shared by a half dozen other states, so I know at least that many school systems teach it.

Where are you getting your information from?

kctim asked: “Or if you feel like we must go overseas to find our culture, why not teach about the religious foundations of the pilgrims, what they believed in and why?
What about the Amish or Mennonites? Their cultures have contributed just as much as others.”

They were Christians which refused to accept the Church of England. That is what is taught. Now what they believed as Christians and why, is entering the area of teaching religion itself, not about the historical reasons for their coming to American shores. That is best left to the Church to teach to a willing volunteer audience, not a captive audience mandated to attend by laws of the state.

Next year my daughter will learn World History and there she will learn of the Irish immigration, the Jewish immigration prior to, during, and after WWII. The persecution of the Jews is necessary to understanding WWII and the founding of Israel and the immigration to the US, however, what Judaism believes and its history as a religion, is not necessary to understanding World History in the 9th grade.

Though I have already taught her some of that just as part of her family history education with her grandmother being a Russian Jew. Her grandfather, husband of the Jewish Grandmother was a German Catholic. So I have taught her some of Catholicism. But, you see that is the point. As her parent I can see to her religious education voluntarily. I would fight for my Constitution if the Government tried to mandate her religious education in a public school I support with tax dollars.

Your questions have been answered directly. Though probably not to your satisfaction; but that is no obligation of mine, is it?

kctim, and how would you know my answers are not honest? That would require your knowing my frame of reference. Let’s stick to discussing the content of the messages shall we, and not the character of the messengers.

Ian Buckland, thank you for insuring that perspective was placed in the proper column. I know there are many more out there who share your beliefs. My father was one. He’s dead! I’m different. Thank Buddha!

Wayne, Ian has every bit as much right to express his views on WatchBlog as you have. Assasinating his character here is not permitted by our policy. Apologize, or lose your comment privileges, here.

My apologies to Ian. May I be the first to extend an Olive branch. My apologies also to the editors at WatchBlog. Mea Culpa.
As Always,
Wayne

Wayne, thank you. Your comments are valued here as well. I respect your maturity in providing the apology.

David
You know you have no obligation to me for anything and I expect nothing but your honest opinion on your views. That is all. For me to suggest you werent being that way was out of line.

“Now what they believed as Christians and why, is entering the area of teaching religion itself, not about the historical reasons for their coming to American shores”

Many religious sects were forced to move out west and they contributed greatly to what our country is today. Their beliefs made their culture and in order to better understand them, we must understand their culture.
Look, I don’t want religion taught in school either, but if we are going to teach about one culture, we have to teach about them all.
If we are going to teach our kids about what it means to be a muslim and what they believe in, we sure as hell have to do it for Christians to.

kctim, we don’t have to teach the Quran for students to understand Islamic history or culture. And we don’t. Hence, we don’t have to teach the Bible for students to understand why Christians settled here.

Now, I am talking here about K-8th grade. In high school, comparative relgion is a damned good idea and I would support it as an elective course. Comparative Religion teaches the historical foundings of the world’s great religions and their fundamental core beliefs and tenets. Adolescents, especially in the 11th and 12th grades can handle this, since by that age, they have reached Piaget’s formal operations and can segregate what they believe from what others believe and they can critically evaluate the information being imparted. I don’t think a lot of parents are mature enough to handle their kids taking Comparative Religion, but, I think their high school students can.