Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

We need to re-introduce a lot more than the red pen and the letter F. We also need to re-introduce disapline to teach kids that actions have consenquences.

This is kinda old news, and it’s already been hashed to death here.

http://www.watchblog.com/republicans/archives/001450.html

There is nothing wrong with alittle competition. If kids don’t learn it in schools, then where will they learn it? Yes, they need to learn to face challenges inherent in competition. They also need to learn to be both good winners and good losers. Fragile psyches only get stronger when they’re tested and challenged. After all, that which does not kill you only makes you stronger.

Also, teaching kids discipline and that actions have consequences is definitely called for, that’s part of learning to live in a society, but until our leaders and representatives can emulate this value as well, we don’t have a leg to stand on. Until our leaders (and I’m talking about both sides of the aisle, but in particular, to the side that holds all the cards right now - you know what I mean, and you know who you are) can face the consequences of their own actions - of lying to the people and pandering to special interests who only want to exploit people for monetary gains and then avoid the reach of the law when they go too far - then do you think the kids are going to believe us when we tell them that? Kids can be alot smarter than we think.

We have the wrong metaphor for competition in school.

Our metaphor is short term sports related. This is incorrect in most other cases.

Competition in most spheres of life is not zero sum. It makes everyone better. It is not destructive; it is constructive. It helps show what is possible and makes people think about problem solving.

Re self esteem. Some people should have low self-esteem because they are screwing up. There is no correlation between high self-esteem and high performance. Check out this in the Scientific American

Nathan, you have addressed a problem which is no where near as simple as you portray it. Society needs competitive entrepreneurial drive and skill. There is no question about that need in a capitalist society. It is a good thing.

But the other side of this is subconscious competition. Which schools have been trying to address since the 1960’s. It is not the avoidance of damaging delicate psyche’s that is behind the color pens and grades. The two dynamics behind such changes are positive vs. negative reinforcement of behavior and the development of competition as a sole approach to all of life’s situtations.

Dynamic one, reinforcement patterns. It is scientifically and empirically established that learning behavior is enhanced with positive reinforcement and weakened or even rejected by negative reinforcements. This is demonstrable in a host of studies from lab rats through children and human adults.

To the extent that red marks and F’s stigmatize young people into believing they are failures, it is to be avoided. Nothing succeeds in education like success. Take a look at all, I mean ALL well run in house corporate training programs. They are structured in such a way that failure can only be accomplished by a conscious act and will to fail. All others pass. Corporate America learned from their human resource departments and their professional staff that the training will be retained longer and be accepted more efficiently and constructively by the trainees when success is all but guaranteed by the training regimen.

Dynamic two, single mode psychology. Young children are very malleable. You can train them to see themselves almost anyway you choose by the way they are trained to approach problem solving and frustration.

It is easy to train youngsters to be competitive in everything they do. And in fact, the US produces one of the most competitive individuals of any society on earth. However, there are some huge downsides to have ONLY competition in ones toolbox for problem solving and overcoming obstacles and setbacks.

A person with competitiveness as their primary subconscious modality to addressing life, will be much less adept in marriage, parenting, and lasting friendships and support relationships. They will be less loyal, less of a team player, and more easily triggered to express anger and frustration in socially unacceptable ways.

The trick here is to guide children to be competitive consciously, not subconsciously. If competition is taught as a tool, to be used where such a tool is called for, those children will make far better employees, mates, parents, and friends than children whose competitiveness is subconsciously driven and applied to all manner of situations where a non-competitive tactic would produce better results.

I am all for teaching children competitiveness in the context of personal achievement. But teaching them competitiveness against others as a measure of self-worth is setting them up to feel inadequate and not measuring up throughout the rest of their life. The reason is simple, no matter how great one becomes, even the greatest, that greatness will be surpassed by someone else. If one’s self-worth / esteem is dependent upon being better than everyone else, one will not be a very happy person except perhaps for a brief period. And for the millions whom will never achieve being better then everyone else, such a measure of one’s self worth can and does lead to all sorts of maladies such as overeating, drinking, drugs, infidelity in marriage, and hostile and abusive relationships.

It is a fairly pervasive theme in the conservative think tanks and rhetoric that competition is a panacea for almost everything that ails our society. But, such a view is not correct, and evidence of the inherent flaws of such a philosophy are all around us.

That is what makes sports, especially team sports so valuable. Such competition teaches that winning is not based on a single individual’s performance, but, on the performance of the whole team. It also teaches that competition among team members in a game is the quickest way to lose a team sport. Therefore, participants learn to consciously discriminate between those people and situations in which competition is warranted and those in which it is not.

The classroom is the place to teach individuals that their primary competitor is themself, their own ignorance, lack of experience, and lack of practice, as well as a place to learn where one’s limitations and strengths are.

So, I think it is a huge mistake to raise the issue of competition in such a broad philosophical all supporting manner as to sanction it without reservation. It has a place, and purpose, and like any tool, use it the wrong way or under the wrong circumstances and it can hurt you instead of help you.

David,
I have but one word for your post….BULLSHIT.

I have but one word

tomd,

That answer gets an F for failure of imagination. And I can’t even give you an E for eloquence. Sorry bud. Back of the class.

One of the comments that was made was that teachers are now encouraged to use lavender pens instead of red when grading papers because lavender is a more soothing color. Some of the other “great” ideas employed to keep from damaging fragile psyches, include using a letter grade of E for failing instead of an F, not keeping score so that we do not have winners and losers, the new math in which there is no correct answer.

Lavendar versus red? Who cares, as long as the kids are getting the message it’s wrong. This is one of those mountain-out-of-a-molehill things that gets people all stirred on AM radio but is basically meaningless and should be up to the teacher. Are are you going to advocate a Constitutional Amendment to make all grade marking red? Give me a break.

Now, as for “not keeping score” in any way, that’s something else. That’s a pretty radical departure in education and most folks, including parents, won’t stand for it. People want their kids - and in fact themselves want - to get reasonably accurate feedback on how well they’re understanding a lesson.

As for new math, it pretty much went out with the 70s, but there were right and wrong answers even then. Then there’s the matter of “partial credit” being given to kids taking some of the standardized tests these days….well, that’s a whole other post, but it’s not new math.

Care to elaborate tomd? I got a 4 year degree in psychology so that I could understand and become versed on such topics. I sure would appreciate your showing where me that education was wasted, since my comments above reflect some amount of that education, and experience as a psych tech in hospitals for adults, adolescents, and counselor for federal prisoners in a half-way house program.

Please give us the benefit of your experience and education in reinforcement schedules and research and learning theory. Bullshit is not very enlightening, don’t you know.

I do however, appreciate your demonstration in conservative apoplectic response to opinions, facts, and theories other than theirs or beyond their resources to recognize and debate.

I would like to say that beginning on day 1 of a child’s life he or she should begin competing and being disciplined. The only thing that stops me is that the first step has to be understanding what constitutes satisfactory performance and what does not. So, I will allow the rest of the first week for that.

In order to become proficient at anything a person must demonstrate skill. I prefer to define skill as a form of behavior. Moreover I do not believe that skill is taught but acquired. By this I mean that skill is the finished product of being exposed to the proper conditions.

People confuse “technique” for “skill”. We can turn to the sports world for an example. If you can dribble a basketball under full control, between your legs to change direction then stop, and shoot the ball into the basket you have “technique”. When you can perform that precise series of actions when challenged by opponents, have to do it within 7 seconds and/or the basket is needed to win the game, you have “skill”

Nobody learns anything constructive if they are rewarded for poor performance in the classroom, a sports arena, in the workplace, etc. There have to be consequences and discipline and, both must start very early in life.

There are many problems at school. Perhaps we should try for improvement of quality instead of fighting over this meaningless argument.

The best approach I’ve ever seen to education has been through Individual Education Plans, whereby a child is given a fairly dynamic psychological profile (which is updated as required and as needed depending on the child’s performance in school). The learning plan developed for the child introduces the material according to the best way the child learns. This is used predominantly with learning disabled kids, but good results, i.e. higher than the status quo, have been achieved among so-called “normal” kids. Unfortunately, these plans require an in-depth involvment between teacher and student, and so many fiscal conservatives shy away from such plans due to their cost. The absolutist in learning approach, whether it is strict discipline or “don’t hurt the self-esteem,” always misses the mark because every kid is different; we each approach the world through our own genetics, experience, and general capacities.

“It is not the avoidance of damaging delicate psyche’s that is behind the color pens and grades. The two dynamics behind such changes are positive vs. negative reinforcement of behavior and the development of competition as a sole approach to all of life’s situtations.”It doesn’t matter if you use a red, purple,or green pen and an F,E or G to grade a bad paper. How long do you think it will be till the kids figure out the new scheme?

“Dynamic one, reinforcement patterns. It is scientifically and empirically established that learning behavior is enhanced with positive reinforcement and weakened or even rejected by negative reinforcements.” I agree with this, however you have to let the student who is below par know his weakness or he won’t improve.

“Take a look at all, I mean ALL well run in house corporate training programs. They are structured in such a way that failure can only be accomplished by a conscious act and will to fail. All others pass.” There is a big difference in a classroom setting and the real world workforce. I supervise a group of people at work and we have a moderate turn over. A lot of our new employees are fresh out of high school. If I teach a new man how to do the job and he can’t perform up to par, he fails, not with a red or purple pen but with his job. He gets fired.

“Dynamic two, single mode psychology. Young children are very malleable. You can train them to see themselves almost anyway you choose by the way they are trained to approach problem solving and frustration.” I totally agree with you here.

“A person with competitiveness as their primary subconscious modality to addressing life, will be much less adept in marriage, parenting, and lasting friendships and support relationships. They will be less loyal, less of a team player, and more easily triggered to express anger and frustration in socially unacceptable ways.” This is possible but not absolute. I only have myself and family and friends to judge this. Most of my friends and family are well adjusted. I have been with my only wife for almost 36 years, have raised 2 fine, well adjusted children, have severla long term friends and exhibit none of these problems you mention.

“teaching them competitiveness against others as a measure of self-worth is setting them up to feel inadequate and not measuring up throughout the rest of their life.” We are all inadequate at many things we do. Being competetive at everything doesn’t make you feel inadequate, it makes you realize you have limits and forces you to find something you can do better. I know my spelling and english skills are horrible. I could never be a writer, however, I’ll bet you can’t prepare fiber optic cable to pass over a gig data. We both have learned our limits. At the time I was in school, we competed in everything. I learned my limits without any damage that I can see.

“The classroom is the place to teach individuals that their primary competitor is themself, their own ignorance, lack of experience, and lack of practice, as well as a place to learn where one’s limitations and strengths are.” The classroom is the place to teach individuals the skills of math, english, and science. If teachers would spend more time teaching their subject matter and leave the raising of the child to their parents, the students would stand a lot better chance in life.

As far as my credentials, I have no degree in psychology, nor the experience as a psych tech. I base my opinion on my life’s experiences. My experiences are as follows: 57 years old, married to the same wonderful woman for 36 years, two grown and well adjusted children, combat vet from the Vietnam era, and a contractor for the past 21 years supervising from 6 to 10 employees.
I couldn’t tell you what your books say, however, I can tell you what has worked in my life and what works on my job.
To me, what you say is BULLSHIT.

With this said I’m going to bed. I have a job to be at in the morning.
Good night all

Training, development or whatever you choose to call it involves measuring performance against a goal. Most leaqrning curves will show rapid progress at the outset, plateau in the middle and gradual climb afer that to 100% or the “standard”. Progress must be measured and discussed at interim points with the “trainee”. There should be reinforcement for adherence to the target and, discipline/counseling, etc. for non-adherence. People must know the consequences of failure but, they should be given a chance to redeem themselves after an initial failure.

Motivating by fear alone is not overly effective and (in the case of business) results in people quitting and being fired. The end product is high turnover and excessive training costs.

I have found through the years that when counseling someone who has failed at an interim level with the objective of getting them to improve, getting them to set their own goal is most effective. People will almost always hit a goal that they set for themselves long before they will hit one that you set for them.

Of course you don’t want them to set an unrealistic goal. That is where the skill of the
counselor comes in. They must be pointed in the direction you want them to go, all the time thinking that they have been given total freedom to set their own goals.

couldn’t tell you what your books say, however, I can tell you what has worked in my life and what works on my job.

Seems fair. Nice responses.

Hm…
Well, as long as we want children to compete, why not go all the way? Why not make their entire school career a competition?

For instance, instead of making students grades private, make them public. Not only that, why not give all students ranks based on their grades and class enrollment? That’s competition right? Competition is good right?

Zeek-

Why not film it as well? At least then we can also make money off of the competition and prove that social darwinism is the best method for raising children. Perhaps we can entitle the show “Life”?

I agree that we should have competition. I hate it when people have to be pampered. Now we can’t even write in red pen without someone saying that it upsets the psyche of that person. And what’s the point of changing the letter? It’s still failing grade!

What about the girl who had the best grades in school and lost valedictorian to someone else who didn’t have the better grades - but tried harder?
What about the baseball game where it was decided no one strikes out because it hurts their feelings? The game lasted forever and those in charge decided it wasn’t such a good idea. Why would anyone want to be the pitcher if they can’t strike anyone out? What’s next? You still go to first even though you popped out? Don’t bother catching the ball even if you can - nobody gets out for it. If you aren’t good at baseball try another game.
Getting an F does what?? When I was in school - getting an F meant you needed to try harder, not give up.
We had grades posted for ALL to see. Made me try harder so everyone else didn’t see a big fat RED F next to my name.
By the time we reached jr. high we all knew who the ‘smart’ kids were. We all knew who was good at what sport. We all hung around with each other anyway.
We have way too many therapists and feel good pills in this country. No one will ever learn how to deal with life by either being pampered or being medicated all the time.

You know, if punishment is so damned effective for failing to live up to expectations, then we should certainly increase the severity and longevity of such punishments. I mean if an F grade is so motivating, why is it those who have recieved an F grade are like 18 times more likely to quit high school before the 12th grade.

Grades should be measures of where more focus and energy should be spent on curriculum. If they function that way, grades can be a tremendous tool to guide better performance.

On the other hand, if grades are used to demean and castigate and segregate students, they will withdraw from the source of that demeaning, castigation and segregation as a survival defense mechanism, or strike out at it (as we have seen with horrific events in American schools with students arming themselves and wasting a number of other students and/or teachers, which too, is a survival defense mechanism -flight or fight).

Color pens should be done away with altogether, IMO, or the same color pen for all grades. To make failing grades a different color is to simply tag the recipient with a ‘scarlet letter’ for others to see and use against the student. Black penned F’s don’t stand out against black penned B’s when glimpsed, and an individual’s grades should private. Unless of course, grades are used as public punishment, in which case, teaching no longer stands as the primary goal and is replaced by a sifting process of those who should continue in school and those who should be motivated/driven out of school.

ant, your comments are right on the money. If education is the goal, then it must begin and continue at each student’s ability and capability level. There is no question that smaller teacher/student ratios enhance this method of teaching while larger ratios diminish it.

I found this true even in college. I had one professor, on the first day of class assign a reading and project list for the course that drove 60% of the students to drop the course on the first session. On the third class session, he said right up front something like, “now that we have gotten rid of those who were looking for an easy grade, we can cut most of that on the assignment sheet and get down to the business of learning.” Classroom dialogue between the prof and students, and students and students, allowed us all to receive the level of attention and assessment of misunderstandings as we went along which served to pretty much keep everyone on the same level throughout the semester.

In a way he jipped and deceived those who dropped the course on the first day, but, for the rest of us who stayed, it was almost unanimous at the end of the term that his philosophy course and constant engagement with us using the socratic dialectic, was the best taught and most worthwhile course we all had ever taken. That would not have been the case with 50 students. But, with 19 students, we all got so much more out of it as he was able to engage each of us at our own level of understanding and proficiency.

tomd, I am glad we found some of the dialogue as common ground. Social science is one of probability and statistics, for which there will always be exceptions. It is a science of bell curves, and for every rule, an exception can be found. But, when one is trying to devise public systems, one has to work with the bell curve center and to the extent that financing is available, reach further and further out to accomodate the ends of the curve.

There are certainly some individuals who claim and believe that a stern, firm, disciplinary childhood stood them well in their success in life. But the bell curve predicts the greatest bang for the buck in education and child rearing will be achieved through more positive reinforcements than negative, more rewards than punishments. “Rewards attract, punishments repel” a professor drilled into us in one course. And we saw it come alive in research project after project.

The easiest way to motivate drop out rates, whether in business, the military, school, or family, is to create the perception by the individual that the rewards aren’t worth the punishments. And they are out of there of their own volition.

I spent years working for volunteer organizations in which a great deal was demanded of the volunteers, and no pay. The rewards were pats on the back, sincere appreciation offered frequently, and individual attention and recognition. It was amazing to me to see how much people would sacrifice in sleep, and free time, for such rewards. And this was live theater. So, competition had nothing to do with it. Quality was the goal and it was almost always achieved. It was amazing.

” I mean if an F grade is so motivating, why is it those who have recieved an F grade are like 18 times more likely to quit high school before the 12th grade.” Maybe because they can’t or won’t perform. With a few exceptions, I believe we are all in the position in life that we are in because of choices we make and have made. The punk on the street corner is there because he chose to “hang with his friends” instead of studying. The CEO of a company who came from a poor, broken home (and there are many) is there because he chose to buck the trend and concentrate on his future. I could be further in life if I had spent more time doing what I should and less time trying to get out of it. It’s not society’s fault or because I was graded with a red pen when I failed something.

“if grades are used to demean and castigate and segregate students, they will withdraw from the source of that demeaning, castigation and segregation as a survival defense mechanism, or strike out at it” I haven’t seen anything in this thread, nor do I know anyone who thinks grades should be used to demean, castigate or segregate anyone. Grades should be used to tell the student at what level he is grasping the information presented to him. It doesn’t really matter what color pen is used or what letter you use. And even if you use a black or blue pen other students will find out what your grade is any way. How is using red or purple pens going to make a difference? Toward the last part of my education teachers started giving a grade of E…for effort. Everyone still knew that the student failed the assignment.

“To make failing grades a different color is to simply tag the recipient with a ‘scarlet letter’ for others to see and use against the student. Black penned F’s don’t stand out against black penned B’s when glimpsed, and an individual’s grades should private.” Why not put everyone’s graded assignments in a sealed envelope with instructions not to open them till they get home?

Why not put everyone’s graded assignments in a sealed envelope with instructions not to open them till they get home?

They already practically do that where I am from; At my school report cards are mailed home and other grades are told in 45-second mini conferences with the teacher. Graded Home work is returned face down.

Grading on a bell curve doesn’t work out very well unless you have very motivated students. At some point they learn that if everyone learns little to nothing, most everyone will pass and top honors will go to those that spelled their name correctly.

Its silly to expect a system that refuses to compete, be tested, or graded themselves, to teach children and prepare them for life in the real world.
If effort and hard work is never rewarded, everyone is reduced to the weakest link in the chain, thats what has happened to public education.
It may sound good, or all touchie-feelie, but at some point reality and the real world will slap it in the face.

Everyone has a photografic memory, but some people will always be out of film.

For a great example of competition and the consequences of failure relating to a component of the educational process one needs to look no further than the nationally televised “spelling bee”. Here there is pressure, millions watching at home, peers who will never forget that you correctly or incorrectly spelled a word.

A great quote about pressure is by Lee Trevino (the golfer) he said ” Pressure is having a putt on the eiteenth green for $100 and having only $50 in your pocket.”

We also need to start grading government, which loves to meddle in everything, but want to be accountable and responsible for nothing.
___________________________________________
GRADE the PERFORMANCE of GOVERNMENT: Create and maintain a prioritized list of the most important pressing problems facing the nation, and show, on a regular basis (e.g. once per month or quarterly), the problems that are being resolved, how they’re being resolved, and show the problems that have been resolved. Government must provide a way to grade it’s performance, just like we all do (in school, college, and professions). Otherwise, there is no direction and chaos will prevail.
___________________________________________

The list should first start with the basics no-brainers, and then proceed to solve these serious pressing problems.

And if the government fails us, we the people should find someone else to do the job better.

How did all of these serious problems get this bad, continue to be ignored, and continue to grow worse by the minute, approaching the point of no return ? Perhaps government has grown too big? It can’t do one thing right, for trying to do everything? Do we really need all of this ?

There is no room and no time left in this country for complacency and apathy. The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, will be to continue to ignore our many pressing problems, and continue to be distracted and wallow in the divisive, distracting uses and abuses of political parties, petty partisan bickering, religion, race, color, language, nationality, gender, age, wealth, level of education, heritage/class, etc.

Grade the performance of government.
d.a.n. I’ve been doing that for 20 some years and if it were in school it would still be in 1st grade.

The smaller percentage of children that have brought about these concerns, in my eyes do not constitute change for all! It will not be productive in the long run. I was a “D”,”F” student because I chose to be, and most people my age while having discussions with me, state that their grades reflected their effort also!

Why do people think everything needs to be changed? The changes don’t seem to rectifying a whole lot.In fact at many of my previous jobs there was a lot of age discrimination going on……the younger applicants were usually discarded in the trash. These employers had simply been burnt enough with them not showing up or having their mother call in for them.This is the college educated included also.

A lot of people are concerned that other countries are passing us by academically. This of course is hooey: other countries only grade the top of the crop, while others may not even be allowed to attend school!
On that subject they also test to see if they will go to regular school or a trade school! Which I think is fabulous (trade school, that is)!

Dan,

Gov. is graded now, they call it elections.

If parents could “elect” to send their children to private schools, without paying twice, the system would get better.
The left always counters with; that would kill public education, I say ..no, they would just have to compete.
What it likely would kill is the teachers union, thats all this debate is about if you boil it down.

Look at it this way;… How many people would opt for a system that said ..if you bought a crappy car and wanted to purchase a different kind next time, you could do that, but, you must also purchase the crappy one?

That makes sence?…like lugnuts on a birthday cake!

I would like to see someone comment on things that the government is doing right.

There has to be a balance sheet with “acceptable” and “unacceptable” columns. To be sure there will be an overwhelming number of entries in the “unacceptable” column but, surely we are doing something right.

Look at it this way;… How many people would opt for a system that said ..if you bought a crappy car and wanted to purchase a different kind next time, you could do that, but, you must also purchase the crappy one?

Or how about, only those who have children in school pay for the schools? Then those having an army of offspring can pay more appropriately for the burden they are putting on the system.

Taylor,

No, Education is needed for the Nation to prosper and everyone needs to pay their share for that. Much like public roadways, even people that only use public transportation benifit because the food they eat didn’t get there on the subway.

Compare apples to apples, would you want to pay for the subway, the public roadway, and also be forced to but a car that you couldn’t/wouldn’t use, just for shits-N-giggles?

I would like to question the whole concept of grading, in general. Clearly students need feedback on their work and their learning. But does that have to take the form, of an all-encompassing, formulaic single letter? When you consider the myriad problems inherent in the grading system - ersatz objectivity, self-fulfilling failure prophecies, and on and on - it’s kind of amazing that it’s become so entrenched in our educational thinking. Is there anything inherently bad about a page or so of written feedback by the teacher? This would accomplish several goals - more personalized education, evaluations that tell the whole story (thinking especially of college applications), and protection of the more vulnerable psyches are just a few.

According to the OECD, the US ranks pretty low in math and science at the high school level.

And here’s an interesting Fareed Zakaria article on student visas,

The U.S. economy has powered ahead in large part because of the amazing productivity of America’s science and technology. Yet that research is now done largely by foreign students. The National Science Board (NSB) documented this reality last year, finding that 38 percent of doctorate holders in America’s science and engineering work force are foreign-born.

Foreigners make up more than half the students enrolled in science and engineering programs. The dirty little secret about America’s scientific edge is that it’s largely produced by foreigners and immigrants.

Americans don’t do science anymore. The NSB put out another report this year that showed the United States now ranks 17th (among nations surveyed) in the proportion of college students majoring in science and engineering. In 1975 the United States ranked third.

The recent decline in foreign applications is having a direct effect on science programs. Three years ago there were 385 computer-science majors at MIT. Today there are 240. The trend is similar at Stanford, Carnegie Mellon and the University of California, Berkeley.

OK. You say government is graded ?
What’s their grade ? (A, B, C, D, F) ?
Are we getting our $2 trillion a year’s worth?
And how about the $8 trillion National Debt Score Box ?

Excluding comparisons with other countries, but only considering where we should be, and what we should be doing, and are not doing, what’s our grade?

I’d give federal government a D-, quickly approaching an F as these serious problems go ignored for many years and decades, culminating into fiscal irresponsibility, and finally, a meltdown and bankruptcy. Not just government. Many people will be affected.

And, how is government (mostly state-run) doing on the Education front? I’d give the states a C-, and the Federal government an F.

d.a.n. I’ve been doing that for 20 some years and if it were in school it would still be in 1st grade.

I’ve been doing it for 47 years, and government, generally speaking, has been getting worse the whole time. I suspect the total fiscal meltdown will occur in about 15 to 20 years, when the problems all converge at the same, when : National Debt far exceeds GDP, Social Security is underfunded, Medicare/Medicaid is underfunded, most Pensions are plundered and bankrupt, Education is underfunded and declining in quality, health-care is unaffordable and unreliable, all our jobs and manufacturing have gone to 3rd world nations where corporations exploit cheap labor for pennies a day in a mad rush to the bottom, pork-barrel, graft, rotten politics, and corruption reaches all time highs, corporate fraud and welfare becomes rampant (if it isn’t already), personal debt exceeds 4 times GDP, federal spending per year climbs ever higher, and interest on the national debt exceeds 50% of each tax dollar (currently about 30% ; about $1 billion per day), and unsecured borders allow illegal trespassers to infiltrate and occupy Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California, and many other states, and continue to burden our health care, law enforcement, welfare, and educations systems, and our stupid tax system becomes so convoluted and abused, the cost of fuel and energy grows astronomically, and the war in Iraq and the war on terror (and who’s next: Iran?, N.Korea?, Saudi?, Pakistan? China?) wreak havoc on fiscal budgets, and destroys lives.

BTW, I think competition is a good thing. In fact, I’m wondering why we’ve stopped competing academically with the rest of the world. Even our leader is a proud C student. It boggles my mind that anyone would be proud of a C.

When I was at my son’s college graduation last year, most of the engineering and science degrees were received by foreign students (and more masters and doctorates also). The U.S. doesn’t seem to value education. Perhaps our fear of competition is what makes us not want more competition amongst ourselves? But, that doesn’t keep the rest of the world from growing more competitive. Which, perhaps, is why our jobs and manufacturing are going overseas?

What price will the nation pay for decades of very few Americans graduating with degrees in math, science, and engineering?

That’s just the tip of the iceburg. Education is one of the top 30 problems we face. What price will the nation pay for decades of ignoring all of our many pressing problems ?

AP my friend,

Thats exactly the point, being a C student in school may not reflect how well someone does in the real world after school.

Being average in school, and superior in the real world isn’t a bad thing.

If someone is a solid D-F student it gives stats on likely outcome of how well they will do in real life, but they may execel later.

What better reason, or case, could be made for testing both students and teachers?

Grades never motivated be to do better in high school. In math & science, I could get an ‘A’ without even trying, so I didn’t try. In english, I got ‘C’s no matter how hard I tried, so I didn’t try. The only area I had trouble was Phys Ed (yeah, I’m a nerd), and I only tried hard enough to squeek by with a ‘D’ there.

There was no incentive to do well. No matter how well I did in English, I still had to take 4 years of it. Doing better in P.E. wouldn’t get me out of it any faster. I was already the best in my class in math & science, so what incentive was there to improve?

If anything, grades encourage you to ignore your strengths. I didn’t spend hours every night studying math and science. I spent my time on classes I wasn’t doing well in.

In the real world, we encourage people to specialize — to grow their strengths. In school, we encourage people to be no worse or better than everyone else. Every 10th grader is measured on the same scale and expected to know the same things, with no incentive to be better than that.

Nathan-

I agree- any attenpt to further erode the educational system need to stop right now. Why do people always take everything way too far? Ancient Sparta took competition way too far, allowing the lower performers to literally die off. Educators here have gone way too far in the other direction, trying to eliminate competition entirely and overemphasize cooperation so as not to hurt the feelings of low acheivers. Both extremes are bad. Competition is an important element of education. It prepares us for life outside the schoolroom where performance and acheivement are the key to success. There is no real reward in business for mediocrity. I really think that one goal of education is to help the young sort out their strengths and weaknesses so that they can play to their strengths effectively. Competition acheives this end. A child’s self image need not suffer: he can see that some people are better at some things than others. Learning to accept this fact and work around it is where cooperation and working with others comes in. We need to prepare our kids to compete and excel in a global economy where the rules are getting tougher, not easier. Competition is more important than ever.

It’s amazing how reading one book, Moral Politics by G Lakoff, has changed my perspective on these threads.

Anyway, to summarize this bin so far:

(R)tomd/Dawn/Beagle/…: School is there to teach. If you fail, it’s your fault. Don’t make me (the school) be responsible to make you feel better, get off your butt and try harder. Compete for that “A,” what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.

(L)David/AP/…: School is there to teach. If you fail, what can we do to help you? Compete not just for the “A”, but to be the best you can be, it’s not always about others. We will reward successes and learn from the defeats. We must help each other understand to make you (and therefor us) succeed.

Not too far apart to find common ground? I don’t know. (R)’s would say the (L)’s are being pansy’s and raising weaklings into a hard world. (L)’s would say the (R)’s are being hard-assed towards children when a little more understanding is needed.

No answers or opinions here, just musings. I’d be curious of what people here think of this post.

P.S. Beagle; Please don’t excuse Bush43’s lazy ass C’s as a legacy Eli. I know you think he’s doing a great job, but to me, he gets straight F’s as president. In red, large nib.

the US ranks pretty low in math and science at the high school level

Yeah, that’s true. And that particular examination being alluded to, known as the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA), didn’t have a lot the “top of the crop” problems alluded to by Traci. These are all developed nations, and the test took pains to ensure the results would be valid. Like it or not, the U.S. K-12 system less-than-mediocre on a global scale.

Another problem: a lot of kids these days just don’t care if they get Fs. It’s actually become a badge of honor for some kids, and that’s not a trend limited to inner-city students from rotten schools. At least that’s what a number of teacher friends are telling me.

Sorry about the rotten link. Try the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA)

It’s amazing that humans were ever able to raise children at all without the help of all you smart, sensitive, fair-minded liberals. Please write another thousand textbooks on how to teach and discipline my children without hurting their fragile sense of self worth.

Dave,

“(R)tomd/Dawn/Beagle/…: School is there to teach. If you fail, it’s your fault. Don’t make me (the school) be responsible to make you feel better, get off your butt and try harder. Compete for that “A,” what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.”

I’m not real sure what your point is here? A school is a building (inaimate object) blaming that for the public education system would be quite silly.
If you are a public school teacher, and I struck a nerve, sorry about that but opinions often don’t pull punches, much like the real world and nature, it can be harsh at times.

“P.S. Beagle; Please don’t excuse Bush43’s lazy ass C’s as a legacy Eli. I know you think he’s doing a great job, but to me, he gets straight F’s as president. In red, large nib.”

It may be true that he could have gotten better grades, and I understand you don’t like him, but he’s still the most powerfull person in the world, kinda hard to discount that fact.

My wife is a 4th grade teacher. She has taught both in the public schools as well as private schools. She has told me that the difference that she has seen is striking between the two.

The children in the private school were more advanced in almost all areas of study. She attributed this to parental involvement and high expectations (both parental and school) as well as the lack of discipline problems present in the classroom. In the public system, she felt that she had to “teach to the middle” or sometimes to “below the middle” whereas in the private school the course of study was to be followed. If a child could not keep up, the teachers were to contact the parent and find ways to get tutoring or any other sort of assistance (and the school would pay for it in cases of extreme financial need).

The point being that the class was not to be held back because of the low end of the curve. They were expected to perform just as life would expect them to perform. And they did. They were not all from wealthy families, but there were common threads: parental involvement and high expectations. No child crumbled under the weight and the staff was as supportive and attentive as I have ever seen.

Competition is good and does motivate children to achieve. The only reservation I would have in general is teaching children to compete without the “Win at all costs” mentality. Keep integrity and ethics in the picture. It’s alright to lose, just learn from it and be better the next time around so you can win.

My two cents……

Beagle: The paragraph was intended to describe in simplistic terms what I called the R(ightest) arguments. As in the L(eftest) summary, the term “School” was a generalization to the institution, not the facility. It’s interesting though that you viewed my (R) post as negative as it was an attempt to be neutral/factual for both sides. Either I can’t subtract my liberal leanings or you’re a closet lib :-0!
Anyway, I have taken no offence by anything yet posted here and I hope you took no offence to this or the postscipt.
BTW, being the most powerful isn’t always good to the rest of us. E.g. Saddam was top dog in Iraq. As were Pol Pot and Stalin in their respective times and countries. Etc… It just means they were willing to win at any cost, not that they were the best. Am I comparing Bush to those sociopaths? Nah, he’s really closer to Rasputin crossed with Marv Throneberry, if they had been born with a silver spoon up their noses.

PS; I’ll put Tim in the (R) column.

I think this is a minor issue. The more widespread issue is whether this culture values learning more than it values competition. Do people feel compelled in this society to improve their smarts, or have they been made to feel from it that learning stuff is not necessary, and that all that scientific stuff is just the scientists trying to make themselves feel important.

I would like to post a comment on competition but I am afraid that it may be deemed as competing with other points of view and that could cause someone to have a nervous breakdown. This would cause them to go their Dr. and get three years disability for post traumatic Blog disorder. Then I could get sued for having induced such.

We hashed this out in another blog - whats to say - those that can will - those that can’t will whine and blame everyone but themselves and then expect someone else to take care of them.

Mike

If the student hasn’t learned then the teacher hasn’t taught.

Stephen,

I agree that determining which this society holds as more important, learning or competition, is a valuable question. I don’t think many people would argue that knowledge is unnecessary.
I think what we’re really getting to is what is the reason for the society in the first place. Is it to simply maintain a playing field and ensure people follow the rules thereby promoting growth (personal and societal), or is its purpose to help its members succeed by individual attention and consideration towards “feelings” as well as abilities?
The arguments taking place were based on very core values. Should we be “sensitive” or should we be “stern” Which helps more?

Sam,
Newsweek just rated the nations high schools. I went to a public school rated in the top 15. I live in a community whose public schools are rated in the top 100. It’s not public vs. private, it’s how the community chooses to value its schools.

Are the schools valued? Are the parents involved? That I think is really what matters most. Too many parents, (R) and (L), look for the school to do all the work but it really does take a village.

The more widespread issue is whether this culture values learning more than it values competition.

I think the culture needs to value both. Our kids have got to know that they are indeed in a global competition for jobs and business opportunities and that they won’t be successful unless they learn well. I consider myself a proud liberal but I’m certainly not against competition. I suspect few liberals are, whatever nonsense might be spread on the radio. The only question is how you nurture a spirit of healthy competition as well as teamwork in today’s kids. They’ll need a lot of both in coming years.

Dave,

Thanks for the response. Perhaps I shouldn’t have used the Public/Private analogy, but your observation is what I was trying to illustrate. Parental involvement and expectations have a huge impact on the performance of a child, although I’m not sure I agree with the village analogy as I’m not sure I would trust some of the villagers with my child and her education……

In any situation, competition is still part of the equation and part of life.

Sam

Like it or not and rationalize it in any way but, all students are not on the same playing field in terms of the quality of education that they receive. Moreover, vast numbers do not have the opportunity to proceed beyond high school.

Students/kids with incredible potential simply never get to discover it or, have it discovered merely because of where they live and/or their economic station.

For them the competition is just to get to school in one piece. Discipline does not mean that they have to go to their room and suffer through black and white TV, discipline means body scars and marks.

Steve:
What would you propose, from the various philosophies presented here or otherwise, as a solution to these inequities? Do we abandon those who are not driven enough to succeed whatever their circumstance (e.g. a single parent/noble prize winning parents/abusive parent households) or do we base aid by those circumstances? To what extent do we go “the extra mile” for them? Do we, as society, hold them solely accountable for how they do or do we share in that responsibility?

Sam:
I agree that there are those in my village I keep an eye on. But, we certainly don’t do it all ourselves. Teachers and administrators, car pools, soccer and baseball coaches, piano teachers, karate sensei, neighbors, extneded family members, etc… etc… all play a role. We choose who we let in as much as we can. Also, I would emphasize healthy competition.

Steve,

I agree with your premise that not all children are on the same playing field, but there are scores of cases where children have succeeded in spite of the obstacles. In most cases, it was because their parent(s) pushed them to get their education regardless of the environment surrounding them. It seems that it always comes back to the parent.

If a parent shows no interest in education and rising above the chaos, then the student will reflect that attitude. When I was going to school, we were plagued by race riots and drug use (showing my age now), but there were many of us that continued to focus on our education regardless of the fights and hatred. My parents expected it and advised me on how to avoid the situations to the best of their ability. I admit that not all are able to do so, but the opportunity is there if you choose to take it. That doesn’t mean that we should stop trying to improve the environment where learning occurs, but we also should not encourage children to find excuses as to why they didn’t succeed or why they became part of the problem. We can either behave like victims or push through it all and succeed.

Dave,

Agreed.

Sam and Dave,

You both make excellent points in response to my post and in principle I do not disagree with what either of you said.

Sam, I am 62 years old and grew up with a like situation to yours so I will not eleaborate any further with regard to that.

Everyday we see successful people from very challenging backgrounds in terms of living conditions, educational opportunities, economic distress, etc. on TV (or elsewhere) giving testimony to how important it is to persevere, in fact never give up, all things are possible, nothing limits you but your self, and on and on, you get the idea. I admire what these people have accomplished.

The problem is that while their message is good and should be motivating, the reality is that for every one of these success stories there are 10,000 failures. A large percentage of those are not failures of will, but failures attributed to opportunity.

I don’t know what can be done to reach out and help these people. I do know it will involve money and personnel. We need to be careful to find a solution that is not affirmative action in reverse.

Steve,

Very good points. I think a start is getting the “village” to get beyond an entitlement mentality. A village will do no good if they are only looking to outside sources for their well being.

Affirmative action as it is generally applied, perpetuates the racial divide. By giving one group an advantage because of the color of their skin, sex, sexual orientation or any other exclusive criteria, we are creating a system where those that do not receive the advantage now become the oppressed group. Hardly a situation where the disadvantaged group is going to willingly accept this and maintain a positive attitude toward others. In the end, anger continues and/or the disadvantaged group learns to take advantage in order to level the field.

I still see the benefit of providing assistance to those that do not have the resources, but do not give them an advantage based on their racial, etc. make-up. Rather, give them assistance based on their ability to pay and their academic performance i.e scholarships. Then make them earn the grades on the same level as any other person. They will begin to learn that it is not the color of their skin that determines the quality of their character and their ability to succeed. It’s probably a little idealistic to think this way, but where else do we begin? I would like us to move away from a victim-based society and toward a empowered society. Sounds like psycho-babble, but you get the point………How we get there is based on our willingness to stop pointing the finger, name calling, making excuses and every other childish activity we carry on into adulthood.

I’ll step off my podium now………

“Sam:
I agree that there are those in my village I keep an eye on. But, we certainly don’t do it all ourselves. Teachers and administrators, car pools, soccer and baseball coaches, piano teachers, karate sensei, neighbors, extneded family members, etc… etc… all play a role. We choose who we let in as much as we can. Also, I would emphasize healthy competition.”

Posted by: Dave at June 6, 2005 04:52 PM

Dave,
If you charge money for these services you would have a small town and if you grew and were good enouge you could even become a big city and start your own school system. Let the government run public schools and let the parents raise the child. The government is responsible to provide a free opertunity public education to all people. They are not responsible to make sure the child learns. If the student doesn’t learn it might be the student’s falut or the teacher’s fault. It is the teacher’s responsibility to provide the subject he/she is teaching in an acceptable format and it is the student’s responsibility to accept and use the information. If the teacher is at fault, he/she should be replaced. If the student is at fault, they fail. It’s unfortunate if the reason is a broken home or a disability or lazyness, they will probably find a place in life equal to the effort they were able or willing to apply.

I think this sensitivity vs. sterness argument is a red herring. Our teachers should insist on students keeping pace with a challenging curriculum, but also be able to spot those who genuinely need help. Stern or sensitive, it’s whatever works, not the strategies one group thought worked in the past.

Competition is good, so long as one competes truly, and not merely technically- that is, competes by skill and not cheating. Just keeping score is not enough. There are many ways to gains scores that have not been earned.

What we need is to teach kids relevant information as if it is relevant, and not assume that they are stupid, or doomed to learn less than the previous generation. These are foolish, self-fulfilling prophecies, that keep our children at arms length from understanding a world that is within a hairsbreadth of their lives at all times.

I think most of our problems in this area come from the shrinks. They create problems so they can prescribe drugs and make money.
We need to drug the shrinks, that way they cnn’t create the problems.

the united states survives because we compete that is why we are the most successful country in the world

I consider myself a proud liberal but I’m certainly not against competition. I suspect few liberals are, whatever nonsense might be spread on the radio. The only question is how you nurture a spirit of healthy competition as well as teamwork in today’s kids. They’ll need a lot of both in coming years.

Nice post, Reed. Ditto.

I think this sensitivity vs. sterness argument is a red herring. Our teachers should insist on students keeping pace with a challenging curriculum, but also be able to spot those who genuinely need help. Stern or sensitive, it’s whatever works

Another nice post. Thanks Stephen.

I think those two posts sum up the viewpoint from the left, but I’ll add one more thing. The vast majority of kids who excel in school do so because their parents take an active interest. It has nothing to do with purple pens.

It’s obvious from reading some of these posts that some of you people never had any discipline in grammar or spelling. Get it right !

Stephen: Stern v. Sensistive, Compete vs. “hold hands”, was how this thread began. That’s logical since expectations of performance, understanding of imperfections, etc… all need to be included here. What’s being argued is how far off the midle do we need to be. Some things require extremism or purism, the prosecution of war is the obvious example, but education does not. My karate discipline was called “half hard - hard soft” in Chinese. Education needs this central balance as well.

AP~
During last year’s presidential campaign, John F. Kerry was the candidate often portrayed as intellectual and complex, while George W. Bush was the populist who mangled his sentences. But newly released records show that Bush and Kerry had a virtually identical grade average at Yale University four decades ago.

In 1999, The New Yorker published a transcript indicating that Bush had received a cumulative score of 77 for his first three years at Yale and a roughly similar average under a non-numerical rating system during his senior year. Kerry, who graduated two years before Bush, got a cumulative 76 for his four years, according to a transcript that Kerry sent to the Navy when he was applying for officer training school. He received four D’s in his freshman year out of 10 courses, but improved his average in later years.

The grade transcript, which Kerry has always declined to release, was included in his Navy record. During the campaign the Globe sought Kerry’s naval records, but he refused to waive privacy restrictions for the full file. Late last month, Kerry gave the Navy permission to send the documents to the Globe. Kerry appeared to be responding to critics who suspected that there might be damaging information in the file about his activities in Vietnam. The military and medical records, however, appear identical to what Kerry has already released. This marks the first time Kerry’s grades have been publicly reported.

The transcript shows that Kerry’s freshman-year average was 71. He scored a 61 in geology, a 63 and 68 in two history classes, and a 69 in political science. His top score was a 79, in another political science course. Another of his strongest efforts, a 77, came in French class. [French was his best subject! -ed.]

AP~
This was an article I came across(I don’t want to take credit for someone elses words).Just thought it was interesting and maybe something you could look into!:)

You know what’s interesting Traci: If it’s true, Kerry had the God-given sense to be ashamed of his poor grades.

Traci,
The full article is available for free registration from the the Globe’s web page
http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2005/06/07/yale_grades_portray_kerry_as_a_lackluster_student/?page=1
:

The part not discussed above, and where I believe it diverges from Bush43 is quoted:

It is noteworthy, however, that Kerry received a high honor at Yale despite his mediocre grades: He was chosen to deliver his senior class oration, a testament to his reputation as a public speaker. (…) Kerry gradually improved his grades, averaging 81 in his senior year. (…) Despite his slow start, he went on to be a top student at Naval Candidate School, (…).
Gaddis Smith, a retired Yale history professor who taught both Kerry and Bush, said in a telephone interview that he vividly remembers Kerry as a student during the 1964-1965 school year, when Kerry would have been a junior. However, Smith said he doesn’t have a specific memory about Bush. (…)

..because he saw what was happening to Bush?

…and none of this shows us why some who almost fail in school go on to do great things and why others who excel in school live mediocre lives.(Our valedic.. dropped out of college because it was too hard - so much for curves.)
What matters most seems to be the values our parents teach us - not whether we got an F in school.
We are herded through school, graded equally? on subjects most of us never understood the point of learning - because we weren’t shown how they related to the ‘real’ world? and then we come out in the end wondering what next?
I agree with any of you who think school needs to be more specialized after elementary. Begin in middle school to show and provide courses that can actually be used for a JOB when finished with high school. Get local businesses to hire kids as interns. Bring more people in to speak to classes that have to do with their business so children can really understand why they are taking the class.

Let it go! If we scrutinize anyone’s records, we can find something to criticize. I doubt there is anyone out there that would like all their laundry aired. It’s the nature of politics, but we need to temper our outrage unless we can stand up to the same scrutiny. We seem to hold onto our political party agenda at all costs and suspend common sense and critical thinking. Stop letting the party elite dictate what you should believe. You know they’re all spinning as fast as they can.

Clearly, Bush is not as bad as the left paints him and Kerry is not as bad as the right paints him. Both have their flaws and both would have screwed it up for someone somewhere. They both focus on their party line more than the public they are supposed to serve. Such is the substance of our current group of politicians (general statement and I know that there will be exceptions). Forget about their school transcripts. What they doing now is what’s important.

LET IT GO ! ! !

Dawn said: We are herded through school, graded equally on subjects most of us never understood the point of learning - because we weren’t shown how they related to the ‘real’ world? and then we come out in the end wondering what next? I agree with any of you who think school needs to be more specialized after elementary. Begin in middle school to show and provide courses that can actually be used for a JOB when finished with high school.

I don’t know about you but I never intended to stop learning after high school. A liberal arts education, many broad based non-career specific courses in addition to strong foundations in the arts and sciences are needed if we are to understand the world, make it better, and do more than be a cash cow for stockholders or milkmaid for our kids. If you want to learn only what’s practical, we have vocational schools here where that is the focus. I wanted more and want more for my kids and I certainly expect more from my leaders.

Traci,

But newly released records show that Bush and Kerry had a virtually identical grade average at Yale University four decades ago.

First, Kerry got the equivalent of a PhD and Bush got a MBA (still good but worse than Kerry’s diploma). Second, there has been no direct comparison, class for class as far as I have been able to find. Without a class for class comparison it is rather pointless to say whose grades reflect a better student.

For instance, I would have to work my ass off for an ‘A’ in Enriched Biology (I got a B+), but in Gym and Art I got A’s without even trying. So, as you can see, there’s a lot more to education than the grades you get.

All this PC nonsense that is going on in education etc. just proves the point: Don’t trust anybody under seventy. Or thereabouts.