June 22, 2005
Stop Kidding Yourself - It is a Holy War
Call it what it is. A Holy War. Anyone who believes there is not a Holy War being fought must be living in a different world. Those who are concentrating their efforts on the fight in our own country about whether a kid can wear a cross to school or thank God in their commencement speech will one day wake up and realize they were fighting the wrong fight.
Look around the World. Look where the conflicts are. Who the conflicts are between. Who has caused them.
These are not just 'civil wars'. These are not conflicts that can be ignored and considered a problem that must be solved by the countries experiencing them alone. Those of us who want to live in peace and freedom need to pay attention.
"Muslim conflicts in the World"
Preventing a city from placing a Nativity Scene on the Court House lawn or turning Christmas Parades into Holiday Parades is being nitpicky compared to what other countries are experiencing.
Don't believe for a minute that the invasion hasn't already begun in our own country. Look at this map 'Known Islamist Extremist Terrorist Cells in the USA'
Those who are promoting 'Open Borders' really need to consider where we are in history at this point and realize that this is not the time to have 'open borders'.
Who do they target? The poor. Those with a lack of skills and/or a lack of a good education. Those who are 'lost'. The ones who do not have a strong belief in God, or a strong belief that there is no God, or even a strong belief in their own selves. Even the well educated can be sucked in due to their low self esteem or need to belong to something bigger than themselves.
Here is the site I found that map at and probably everything you ever wanted to know about the Muslim Extremists and what they have done.
In a previous thread of mine it was mentioned that someone could not express their Christian belief in school but that other religions were allowed to do so. This is wrong and must be stopped. Meaning... No Religion in school during class time PERIOD!
Here is an Asian View in the Asian Times called: 'From Cold War to Holy War' Granted it is old - 2003 - but has it changed much?
From the article: Killing in the Name of God: The Problem of Holy War
"In the Islamic tradition, there is a similar mixture of values restraining war along with others promoting it.
The Qur'an repeatedly refers to God as compassionate and just. It also says that "there is no compulsion in religion" (2:256): submission to God must be freely chosen, not forced (Ali). The Qur'an urges Muslims to use "beautiful preaching" to persuade people to accept Islam and to "argue nicely" with Jews and Christians who are seen as worshipping the same God as their own (16:125, 29:46, Firestone). This is probably the attitude of most Muslim people today. Jewish and Christian communities have often been tolerated and protected under Muslim rule.
Muhammad was said to have practiced non-violence early in his prophetic career but soon came to believe that God commanded the use of force, not only in defense of his growing religious community (Qur'an 22:39-40) but also in the form of offensive jihad to expand the territory of Islam. (Kelsay; Firestone)
The word jihad, by the way, means struggle or effort. Jihad can refer to the struggle of the individual Muslim to conform his or her will to Allah's, or to a peaceful effort to persuade others to accept Islam. But jihad can also mean holy war. In fact, there's a sense in which the only completely just war in Islamic terms is a holy war since it has to be approved by proper religious authorities and waged to defend or promote Islam or the Muslim community. (Kelsay; Johnson)
In spite of the Qur'anic statement against forcing religion on others, Muslim leaders have sometimes threatened to kill unbelievers if they did not accept Islam (Peters). Although Islam spread to some parts of the world like Indonesia mainly by means of "beautiful preaching," much of its expansion elsewhere was due to offensive war, first by Muhammad to unify Arabia, then by his followers in conquering Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Persia, parts of India, North Africa, Spain, Turkey and the Balkans.
Now, Muhammad and his successors did express some important moral rules for fighting holy wars: women, children and the elderly were not to be directly attacked (though they could be enslaved). Jihad was not supposed to be total war involving indiscriminate killing (in spite of what Osama bin Laden might claim). But Muslim leaders were permitted by Muhammad to kill all captured soldiers and male civilians if they were not Muslims or had abandoned Islam. The fact that you might be a civilian or a soldier who had surrendered didn't necessarily protect you from being killed after a battle against Muslims was over. Thus, Islam traditionally did not have a generic principle of noncombatant immunity though many Muslim leaders today uphold such a principle. (Kelsay; Johnson)"
Is this why Zarqawi was 'allowed' to say that killing of fellow Muslims is justified as long as the target is American or Coaliton Troops?
Why is it that more leaders of the Muslim Community won't condemn what Bin Laden and his followers are doing? I mean out loud. I mean in the same way that riots AGAINST the U.S. are created. I mean that pictures of Bin Laden should BURN instead of the United States Flag!!
I am against torturing people but making someone lay on a cold floor is not torture.
In case you missed it, this is from the above article, "But Muslim leaders were permitted by Muhammad to kill all captured soldiers and male civilians if they were not Muslims or had abandoned Islam. The fact that you might be a civilian or a soldier who had surrendered didn't necessarily protect you from being killed after a battle against Muslims was over."
Does that sound like the people we are fighting care if we follow the Geneva Convention? Being nice to them is NOT going to get them to be nice to us - and protect our soldiers if captured.
Is the Neo-Conservative Right playing a much larger role in our International Relations than we need them to?
What is 'Straussian Conservatism'?
I have been looking through a site (Islam-World) that is supposedly promoting Islam as a peace loving religion. Included in this site are links to Jihad sites. Upon opening some of these I have found many explanations about why the Quran can be viewed as promoting Jihad - Holy War. As with many things, we can find people who view the exact same words with opposite meaning.
I noticed a link called 'Evaluation of Human Rights in Islam'. The second last paragraph says this: "Based on faith in God, the Islamic perspective on human rights is comprehensive and deep. Quran repeatedly confirmed and assured the equality of all individuals and guaranteed their rights to live in peace, free of oppression or fear."
This does not sound like the Muslim Nations of the Middle East to me.
We have groups here in the U.S. that concentrate ALL their effort on what the U.S. has done 'wrong'.
I agree. The U.S. has not been perfect... we will NEVER be perfect.
Even those that want to 'Blame America First' have got to realize that the problems in this world cannot be fixed simply by blaming the United States for everything. Other countries, societies, religions... play a role in the world and they have to assume some responsibility.
Anyway.. I don't really care what Political Party you associate yourself with ... I don't really care if you consider yourself 'far left', 'far right', in the 'middle', or from 'outer space'... We have got to stick together as 'Americans', as human beings, and fight this battle or we will lose it to those that can 'suck in' the weaker ones among us and destroy us no matter what we believe is 'best' for our society.
Just STOP KIDDING YOURSELVES - it isn't just US and what WE do. This is a Holy War.
Dawn, the threat to our American way of life is far greater from FREC’s (Fundamentalist Right-wing Extremist Christians) than from Islamic Fundamentalists. Now if Islamic Fundamentalists had the same access to our halls of government and their high officials, if they had campaign money that could sway votes in America, if they had lobbyist groups capable of putting the screws to Congresspersons seeking reelection by threatening to campaign against them as anti-Christian, then I would fear Islamist Fundamentalists more.
As it is however, the FREC’s are the greatest threat to tolerance, and freedom in America.
Posted by: David R. Remer at June 22, 2005 08:42 PMIf its such a Holy War, why haven’t you called Republicans to Enlist in the Army? We need soldiers to fight this Holy War. 50,000 people to be exact. Surely you Republicans can pony up 50,000 of your children to fight the good fight?
No? Well then, its not such a Holy War after all.
Posted by: Aldous at June 22, 2005 09:08 PMAldous,
You constantly are ranting about the lack of Republicans enlisting in the Army. Why then is it that the military ALWAYS votes republican if no republicans are in the Army?
David,
How many FRECs have flown planes into civilian structures killing thousands of innocent citizens? It is amazing to me how quickly 9/11 was forgotten.
Danny:
About 60% of the Military is Republican. That’s hardly “Voting Republican”. In any case, there is a clear separation between the Military Families and the General Population. Right now the Republicans in the General Population have yellow stickers in their SUVs. We need them to step up to the line.
I don’t suppose I can get you to post your names and email? I really am looking for Conservatives to Enlist.
Posted by: Aldous at June 22, 2005 09:22 PMDawn,
“Call it what it is. A Holy War. Anyone who believes there is not a Holy War being fought must be living in a different world.”
It’s called ‘earth.’ Come by & visit sometime.
Few are responding to this post, and in a way I am pleased- I believe most people are taken aback. How does one respond to grotesque prejudice? How can one reason with the kind of people who created the sites linked in this post?
But before continuing, listen to your President (and boy, I never thought I’d type that!). This is not a ‘Holy War.’ This is not a crusade. We are not at war with Islam.
There is a small, radical element among the Sunnis who advocate jihad against the US. The cliche is that they are attempting to ‘hijack’ Islam.
These ‘foreign jihadists’ are few in number, and so they resort to a form of asymmetrical warfare, terrorism.
Among other things, terrorism seeks to polarize. It seeks to force the vast majority of people, who are moderate and uninterested in politics, to choose one side or the other. ‘You’re either for us or against us.’ Choose a side- it’s either a Christian state or an Islamic state, with secular government not an option.
The vast, vast majority of people of all faiths do not seek conflict or violence. This includes practioners of Islam.
Enough. But before I go, I’ve got a great group for you. Ever hear of the Lord’s Resistance Army? They obstensibly want to make the Ten Commandments the governing law of Uganda. Sound good? Oh. And one more thing. They’re terrorists.
In the US, we don’t much care about the LRA. The LRA kills people the old-fashioned way, one at a time, often with machetes or farm implements. Chopping off limbs, rape, and enslaving children are par for the course, and over the past decade or more, hundreds if not thousands have died at the hands of the LRA. But the people dying are poor, black, and they don’t have any oil.
I’ll finish off by very intentionally invoking Godwin’s law.
Ever notice posters of Hitler wearing armor, like a knight? He often posed as a Christian Crusader. We don’t like to talk about it, but the Nazi agenda was religious as well as ethnic.
Look hard at the swastika- see the cross in it?
phx8
I do not see The Cross in the swastika. Of course one can see anything in anything so if you see a cross in the swastika then you do. The Cross is the one that held Jesus the crucified and I don’t see it in the swastika.
Christian covers a lot of things and people. There are some people who parade in a facade of calling themselves christian. You can’t get figs out of an apple tree and you don’t call it a fig if it comes off of an apple tree.
This is a Holy War as proclaimed by the radical fundamentalists of Islamism. They kill in the name of Allah which is a different god than the one I know. They enslave people in the name of Allah.
They want to come to this country to populate it so that their prediction of a Muslim president will come to pass. The Muslims of many nations that come here are reproducing at a rate far above the norm.
The extremists who started all this would absolutely love to know that you think this way, Dawn. In fact, they’re counting on it.
You see, despite decades of their best efforts, the Islamic extremists have failed to unite the Muslim world in a jihad against the West. This is because most Muslims don’t see us as a threat to their religion or their way of life.
So now they have a new tactic — get the West to start the war. Piss off the West enough that they’ll walk over any and every Muslim nation they have to in order to find these people. This, they hope, will force the Muslim world to unite against the West.
They want everyone to believe that war between religions is unavoidable. And this sentiment is echoed too many times by Americans. How many times have you heard people say, for example, that Israel and Palestine have too many religious differences to make peace? That they have been fighting since biblical times, and won’t stop now? Never mind that, less than 100 years ago, they were fighting on the same side against the Ottoman Turks (Note - that’s Muslims and Jews united against other Muslims!). Also never mind that, for much of the Middle Ages, Jews flocked to Muslim-controlled lands, because the Muslims would tolerate them and the Christians would not!
There are many places in this world, the US included, where Muslims, Christians, Jews, and others live side-by-side in peace. Conflict is NOT inevitable.
This is a political war. Religion is simply a tool used — by both sides — to recruit those who don’t share their political views. The terrorists WANT us to turn this into a religious war — Christianity vs. Islam — because that’s the only way they can get the Muslims to unite behind them.
Let’s not do their work for them, please.
Posted by: Rob Cottrell at June 23, 2005 12:37 AMTom,
Draw a swastika. First, draw a cross… get it? But if it makes you feel better, the limbs of the cross are figuratively broken, & the cross tilted onto its side.
“Christian covers a lot of things and people. There are some people who parade in a facade of calling themselves christian.”
“This is a Holy War as proclaimed by the radical fundamentalists of Islamism.”
Tom, you have no problem differentiating between good and bad Christians, yet in your next paragraph condemn all of Islam, without differentiating between good and bad.
“They want to come to this country to populate it so that their prediction of a Muslim president will come to pass.”
That’s just weird. People come to America for many reasons. Can you be specific? How many Muslims have immigrated for the reason you state? 100? 1,000? 10,000?
“The Muslims of many nations that come here are reproducing at a rate far above the norm.”
At current rates of immigration and reproduction, how long will it take for Islam to represent, say… oh, let’s keep it low… 10% of the US population? An estimate is fine- toss one out.
Danny said: “How many FRECs have flown planes into civilian structures killing thousands of innocent citizens? It is amazing to me how quickly 9/11 was forgotten.”
I haven’t forgotten. But perhaps you are not even aware that Americans murdered 16,500+ fellow Americans last year. Americans are a far greater threat to Americans than terrorists. The facts are there for those with an interest in putting the world in proper perspective. The Southern states have a disproportionately high rate of murder along with disproportionately high numbers of FREC’s. Just a correlation, but, one which raises my eyebrows.
Posted by: David R. Remer at June 23, 2005 01:24 AMWoah woah woah, px8. I was actually with you right up to your complete idiot statement about Hitler.
You realize that Hitler killed millions of christians, right?
He was participating in a holy war, but it was a racist one, not a religious one. He ‘used’ symbolism and borrowed from a variety of belief systems in order to convince people to do along with his plans.
Of course, it’s late and you could have just been trying to get a rise of out someone… At least, I hope that’s what you were doing.
Posted by: Rhinehold at June 23, 2005 01:58 AMRhinehold,
Yeah, mostly to get a rise, Godwin’s Law. I’m not very comfortable even participating in this particular discussion.
All:
I believe Swastika’s have been used in Asia for centuries. While stationed in Seoul I saw them everywhere. I asked my “KATUSA”(Korean Augmentee to the US Army)soldier what it meant, he told me but I can not remember, only that it did not represent what the Nazi’s used it for.
As Always,
Wayne
The swastika is the holiest non-syllabic symbol in Hinduism. By extension Jainism and Buddhism also use this symbol.
It has been in use for thousands of years… Long before it was adopted (see above reference to adopting from various belief systems) by the Nazi party less than 100 years ago.
Posted by: Rhinehold at June 23, 2005 03:07 AMWhile I find this lesson on Swastika’s fascinating, let us not forget the bigger picture. There is a 50% shortage in Recruits to fight the Republican Holy War. We need a few of those 61,000,000 Republicans to volunteer to Spread Freedom. We only need about 50,000 bodies. Come on, wingnuts!!! Stand-up and be blessed!!! Bush WANTS you to fight in the Holy War against Muslims. Kindly post your name and email in the Thread.
btw. While your out there killing Muslims, kill a few North Koreans too. Throw in a few billion Chinese and I am sure your ticket to Heaven is assured.
Posted by: Aldous at June 23, 2005 03:28 AMAldous,
Your sarcastic recuiting ploy was cute at the beginning, but it’s wearing a little thin now. I think we all know how you feel.
You know, sometimes people think that I don’t give right-wing religious whackos a fair shake. Sometimes I get told that my belief that most fundamentalists are little more than facist thugs who are hiding their personal prejudices behind their First Amendment freedoms is unfounded paranoia on my part.
Well, now I have this little gem to share. Thanks, Dawn! Please, let me know when you start advocating the construction of gas chambers for people who aren’t part of the Southern Baptist Convention, OK?
Posted by: Jess at June 23, 2005 06:47 AMDawn,
This is definitely a holy war, no doubt about it.
My question is, in this day and age, WHY are we fighting a holy war? Haven’t we become more civilized, more mature than the crusaders? Aren’t we more capable of practicing diplomacy?
I have several muslim students, and I have worked with muslim teachers and muslim doctors in my previous career, and our religious differences never entered the conversation at all. Some of them have been very devout practitioners. We did discuss the purpose of various holidays and religious practices.
If you remember any school yard fights, rarely are there only 2 members fighting. Each combatant has an instigator, to make certain that he doesn’t behave rationally, and back down. In politics, there are always those who live vicariously by flaming the fire of intolerance. We call them political leaders.
During the Crusades, Kings and other leaders sent soldiers off to the Middle East so they wouldn’t stir up trouble at home, and as an excuse to refuse some group needing financial help.
Look at Eastern Europe after the fall of the Iron Curtain. How many leaders rose to power by fomenting racism and nationalism? In fact I can’t think of a single conflict in the 20th century that didn’t at least start when someone used differences as a means of grabbing power for themselves.
Look at the Middle East. The Saudis are our allies, supposedly, but they redirect the anger of their people toward the west and away from their own repressive regime. Look at Israel and Palestine. That conflict would have been resolved long ago if there weren’t always someone on either side to use the conflict as a means of grabbing power.
I think we play right into the problem by supporting one regime over another, and by providing predominantly military aid, rather than humanitarian aid to the poor people of that region, who have always had to bear the brunt of the many conflicts and regime changes. The leaders in the muslim countries have used their petrodollars to keep in power, influence the US, and create a lavish lifestyle for themselves, repressing dissent while at the same time turning a blind eye to religious leaders who spew venom at the US. And the poor have been led to believe that their situation is the fault of the wicked west and its war against Islam.
And didn’t GW say that the terrorists hate us for our freedom? Talk about misdirection. How many fundamentalist muslims have come out saying exactly why they hate us, because of our foreign policies regarding Israel and presence on sacred soil.
Posted by: Loren at June 23, 2005 07:20 AMDefinintion from Oxford Dictionary and Thesaurus: Crusade: 1. any of several medieval military expeditions made by Europeans to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims. 1 n. Holy War 2 v. campaign, battle, war, lobby.
Now, some may have a short memory, or may have not learned at all, but these people have not forgotten the slaughter in the name of the cross. Yes, it started in 1096 and lasted a hundred years, and unless your name is Ann Coulter, you should care, or at least think (if you can think for yourself) about our (USA) policy in the middle east.
Would you like it if Canada was at war with Mexico and used the US as a staging area to bomb, kill and maim thousands of Mexicans?? Well, thats how WE USED Afghanistan against the Soviets. If I was an Afghan in the late 80’s I sure would be mad as hell at the US too.
Though this conflict is a later chapter in our blind push-around of those we deem lesser humans(as pointed out by our bombs), this is just an example of what the CIA calls Blowback. Blowback is what happened on 9/11, to the USS Cole, the two US Embassy’s in Africa, and the WTC in the early 90’s. Stupid, blind, bullying intervention in what IS NOT our business….unless you’re a shareholder.
I was just wondering if some of you even read and understand what Dawn wrote? Some of the comments are so politically biased, that they can’t be taken seriously.
Amazing!
Posted by: Kevin at June 23, 2005 08:54 AMPosty, you seriously need to dive much deeper into the history of which you speak, you are taking a very simplistic view of the situation, ignoring the centuries of European involvement as well a myriad of other factors to draw your conclusions.
If you want to seriously debate this, I’m sure we can have a good one, otherwise you might want to heed your own advice…
Posted by: Rhinehold at June 23, 2005 11:21 AMOnce in awhile sarcasm works in a debate. But, when it is continued it usually indicates that the user wants to continue but has nothing of value to offer. So the mud, extreme bias, imaginations and so on come out and just stirs up the spoiled pot. It would be a whole lot nicer to hear someone who opposes me with sound judgement rather than rhetoric
Posted by: tom at June 23, 2005 11:43 AMIt amazes me that, even though I included the whole EARTH in this current problem, most everyone has taken it as U.S. vs. Islam.
Some say that it is a payback for what Christians have done - some say, that given the century we live in, we should all be well beyond Holy Wars.
I did expect to be blasted much worse than I have been since ‘my president’ told me that this is not a Holy War.
It is also amusing to me that at least one thinks I am ready to exterminate any non-Christians.
I am not the one who coined the terms - ‘Radical Muslim’ or ‘Muslim Extremist’. Even the peace loving Muslims who are brave enough to speak out will tell you that there religion has been hijacked.
I added things like our border and human rights but no discussion about that - just that I am on some sort of crusade.
Isn’t anyone else concerned about the OTM’s crossing our border? Some 100,000 so far this year. Of which some 90% are released into our population never to be seen again. Who are they? Where are they? What are they here for?
Diplomacy is a good thing when it works.
Aldous … when one of these Al Queda type groups actually gets their own country we will let you be the Ambassador.
Of course it is the fault of the U.S. because we haven’t done enough to stamp out poverty. I’m sure UBL could do a much better job. Maybe we should give him the chance. After all, we created him.
Pointing out what is happening now has nothing to do with ignoring history.
Wayne,
Far Eastern religions have used the swastika for a thousand years. The Nazi swastia is “spinning” in the opposite direction of the original.
Kevin,
I did read Dawn’s post. I found it to be poorly supported and simultaneously narrow in its thrust and haphazard in its presentation. However, that’s probably because I have completely different perspective on religion then she does and have a divergent view of what’s a significant factor in these events than she does.
There are those here who have gotten involved in disputing/discounting her views. Many have the same problems as the original post does. But, simply because those views are different doesn’t mean they’re wrong or ill informed.
Holy war or Spiritual war?
If your are a believer in God and creation then, you only have one real enemy. This enemy comes in all forms and is very good at what he does.
As long as there are people living in the dark this enemy will always have a foot hold and will never give up the fight for the ultimate prize.
Posted by: brian at June 23, 2005 12:35 PMTom,
“It would be a whole lot nicer to hear someone who opposes me with sound judgement rather than rhetoric.”
I replied to your earlier post with specific questions. Same Tom?
Dawn,
I’m not concerned about illegal immigration as it relates to the issue of this post. But if you care to know, I’d like to see legal immigration encouraged as much as possible; open the borders, let them in, anyone who wants to immigrate, as long as it’s legal immigration (which provides minimal security). University graduates from abroad, Mexicans, Haitians, the rich, the poor, the hungry, the ambitious, come on over, America is the place for you! That includes practitioners of Islam.
Actually Dave, this is one of the best “supported” posts I have seen in this blog. Narrow and haphazard is just an opinion, and you are entitled to that so I don’t really need an explenation.
What I was saying, was that a lot of the comments are so far out of touch with reality and don’t have anything to do with the point I believe Dawn was trying to get across.
For instance: “Well, now I have this little gem to share. Thanks, Dawn! Please, let me know when you start advocating the construction of gas chambers for people who aren’t part of the Southern Baptist Convention, OK?”
What the hell is that!!
Posted by: Kevin at June 23, 2005 12:45 PMRhinehold,
Not simplistic at all, I’m not going to make a list of all the stupid things that have been done in the name of a god.
It’s the US’s involvement in the middle east that created the problems we have now. From our support of Israel (even when THEY were doing all bombing) to overthrowing Iranian PM Mossadeq in 1953 to install the Shah. We know how that worked out, huh? They didn’t want us there and they said so. What do we do? We send troops and build bases in their holiest of countries. Not to mention selling weapons to both sides of a war.
Posted by: posty at June 23, 2005 01:13 PM
When the discussion turns to foreign policy of present and past administrations, going back 50 even 75 years, then Foggy Bottom gets involved. The people at the State Dept. have had an influence that has not benefitted the US. Is that to say I am questioning their committment to the US? You betcha I am. Why does the Council of Foreign Relations have such a heavy hand in our dealings with foreign powers? Why does the Bildergurgers, Illuminati, Rothchilds, Tri-Lateral Commission, ad infinitum, have such influence in our government? No matter which side of the political spectrum you are on, it would be a benefit to read and understand above mentioned groups
Posted by: tom at June 23, 2005 01:45 PMI think I’ve heard somewhere that…of the 27 or so conflicts currently being waged around the world 25 of them involve muslims fighting someone.
Posted by: james at June 23, 2005 02:08 PMAldous -
Why do you keep calling for republicans to join the military. We have already established that on the MSNBC website it states that 61 percent of the military say they are Republican, 30 percent say they are Independent… well, you do the math
As for the holy symbol of the Nazis. I think in the symbol the Germans used is open sided on the left, at the top and the holy symbol used in asia is open ended on the right side at the top, or reversed….they are very very similar but I think they are reversed symbols
I was in Korea for 2 years and Japan for 6 months but that was a long time ago and my memory might be slipping.
Posted by: James at June 23, 2005 02:16 PMKevin,
As I posted, the lack of depth applies to replies as well. Generally, sarcasm in replies should be expected as part of the discussion. I would suspect that the poster of your “gem” wasn’t really expecting a serious counterpoint.
James,
Although you’re right about the swasticas being different, you’re wrong about associating the military tendency towards GOP votes as support of GOP policy. The military is the ultimate example of a “conservative” lifestyle. There is a strict hierarchy and absolute adherence to legitimate authority. Not a liberal philosophy at all. Since the GOP is becoming untrustworthy and losing it’s legitimacy (yeah, yeah, I know, you still think Bush didn’t lie about the war) and the Dems are becoming increasingly centrist, I would look to see a change in that proportion in the near future.
As far as your list of “concerns”, pretty extreme dude. Conspiracy theorist are we?
Dave
What are you talking about ? My list of concerns ?? Did you confuse me with someone else ??
Those figures are from MSNBC, I think they are pretty accurate. Aldous keeps calling for republicans to send their kids to the military. All I’m doing is asking him to stop.
What is the total military up to now ? A million ? it was 2 million before Clinton. (oops, sorry, i know you libs don’t want him to be mentioned)
Anyway, it is most likely more than 1 million, but lets just say 1 million, that means Libs need to come up with about 1/2 million soldiers to eaual it out.
61% of a mil = 610,000
9% of a mil = 90,000
difference = 520,000
That was my only point. I didn’t want to have to type all of this out, cause I don’t type well. That’s why I said “you do the math” But, since you needed remedial training…there ya go.
Conspiracy theorist are we ?? Really Dave, what is that about? You lost me on that one.
Posted by: James at June 23, 2005 03:02 PMJames,
Sorry, that was tom June 23, 2005 01:45 PM.
Deep apologies!
For the math part, it’s not that the military needs “libs” to “balance it out” but that as the neocon chickenhawks lose more and more of their credibility, they will also lose their legitimacy as authority to the troops. The troops will them stop voting GOP.
As far as Aldous bugging you with the “draft a repub” posts, I wonder if it’s as annoying as the “libs hate america” mantra?
“but that as the neocon chickenhawks lose more and more of their credibility, they will also lose their legitimacy as authority to the troops.The troops will them stop voting GOP.”
I doubt it Dave, there is a big difference between the military mindset and the civilian one.
Honor, God, and Country is what they fight for, which are the exact same 3 things the Libs are trying to destroy.
Kevin,
Now there is the value added response we were all looking for! Thanks for the laugh and self validation.
Posted by: Dave at June 23, 2005 03:58 PMIt’s a big mistake to turn this into a religious war.
Remember:
Religion doesn’t harm people.
Guns don’t harm people.
Professions don’t harm> people.
Level of wealth doesn’t harm people.
Political Parties don’t harm people.
Differences in Heritage/Race/Language/Color/Age/Gender don’t harm people.
Some people harm> people.
Sure, you can find many that use and abuse religion, but not all muslims condone the actions of those that use and abuse relgion to promote war and terrorism. There are many good muslims that don’t agree with that ideology.
It is irresponsible to bring religion into it, obscure and clouds the issues, and could potentially bring harm to innocent people.
Posted by: d.a.n at June 23, 2005 04:07 PMJames:
I have already stated that there is a divide between Military Families and the General Population. It is the Military Families that are suffering in Iraq. The yellow sticker Republicans at home do not enlist.
I want all who support this war to do their share Spreading Freedom. Surely you can convince your children to enlist? We only need 50,000 out of 61,000,000 Republicans.
Come on. Give me your names and emails.
Posted by: Aldous at June 23, 2005 05:18 PMDawn,
In case you missed it, this is from the above article, “But Muslim leaders were permitted by “Muhammad to kill all captured soldiers and male civilians if they were not Muslims or had abandoned Islam. The fact that you might be a civilian or a soldier who had surrendered didn’t necessarily protect you from being killed after a battle against Muslims was over.
Does that sound like the people we are fighting care if we follow the Geneva Convention? Being nice to them is NOT going to get them to be nice to us - and protect our soldiers if captured.”
I’m not saying we are a Christian nation, althoug I am a Christian, but Matthew 7:12 can be sumarized as: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
As I recall this was Jesus speaking at the Sermon on the Mount. He didn’t have any exceptions footnoted and nor should we.
Just my Christian spin on things. I’m tired of hearing so many folks use Islam values or terrorist actions to justify our own actions.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. We aren’t to act for revenge. We are to act for justice. Justice involves the presentation of evidence and weighing that evidence. If found guilty (as best as the evidence can suggest), then justice should follow (whether that be continued detainment, execution….whatever). I think the majority of us don’t seek revenge but justice. Using someone else’s attrocities to justify your own (no matter how much less of an attrocity it is) is wrong.
Remember the golden rule: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
It takes a bigger man with a bigger heart to do so.
Posted by: Tom L at June 23, 2005 05:24 PMblah, blah, blah
OK, so it’s a Holy War. Call for your children to enlist then. Why not? Pony up your child for the death mill WE’VE created.
Blame liberals for not doing enough while you sit behind your keyboard like cowards.
Like your sky god? Defend what you believe in. When I see ONE conservative advocate that anyone join the army to support this ill-advised counterproductive war, I’ll be amazed. You won’t. Becuase even YOU don’t really believe in it.
Meanwhile, Rove blames LIBERALS.
Conservatives (rather neo-conservatives) have rapidly become a joke. EVERYTHING you’ve done since 9/11 has been counterproductive and has made us, if anything, a lot less safe than we were before.
We have children running this country.
Posted by: Jeff Seltzer at June 23, 2005 05:43 PMJeff Seltzer:
My Soul Mate!!!! Let us both urge our Republican Brothers together!!! Do you have any emails and names for me? Even if they don’t join, the Army has a database for when the Draft starts. They won’t be able to claim Objector Status once in the Database!!!
Posted by: Aldous at June 23, 2005 08:24 PMJeff, NO! Not children. Children have good hearts. We have money and power brokers running this country and the people are simply pawns in their game on a game board shaped like the world. This administration is likely now to kill more American soldiers in their war on terrorism than the terrorists killed on 9/11. That says a great deal to me.
And Cheney says Democrats didn’t understand what 9/11 meant. The Glaring Truth is, the Republicans did not understand what 9/11 meant. 9/11 meant we are vulnerable to attack within our own borders. And how high a priority in money and policy has securing our borders been to Republicans? No, there priority was engage Iraq instead.
It is the Republicans and many Democrats who did not understand what 9/11 meant, AND THEY STILL DON’T GET IT.
With the manpower and money we have spent in Iraq, we could have security of our borders 100 times or more secure than currently exists. We tokenized security of Americans, and made global chess of moving military offensive forces into the Middle East where the oil is, the main priority. Not the safety of Americans. Hell, we sent over 1600 of them to their deaths in Iraq. No, American security is not what this adminstration and Congress are about. Money and power brokering are what they are about.
Posted by: David R. Remer at June 23, 2005 08:33 PMThe fanatic muslims are being manipulated by their imams to fight for their religion.
Those who don’t believe it are like those who say the southern soldier fought for slavery, ideologues who have been duped without researching the facts for themselves.
Nazi’s were socialists.
To the jerk who thinks Christians are more of a threat than Muslims to the U.S., wake up and smell the coffee. I’ve never heard of a Christian strapping on a bomb and killing gays or abortion rights activists. Just anothe example of intolerant an leftist. Someone who says what they want is right and any other side is equated with Nazism. There’s just no reasoning with people like that.
Posted by: Otter at June 24, 2005 01:07 AMTom, you said this:
I’m not saying we are a Christian nation, althoug I am a Christian, but Matthew 7:12 can be sumarized as: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
Iraqi soldiers did this to our Armed Servicemen.
Lt. Colonel Craig Berryman, USMC (POW of Operation Desert Storm)
The Harrier aircraft piloted by Lt. Col. (then-Captain) Craig Berryman was shot down near Kuwait City on January 28, 1991. His wingman reported seeing the plane hit the ground and explode, but he did not see a parachute emerge and believed Lt. Col. Berryman had died in the crash.
Upon his initial capture, Lt. Col. Berryman was beaten by Iraqi soldiers using their fists and rifle butts. He was then taken to a series of bunkers in Kuwait for interrogation. One of his interrogators commented that Lt. Col. Berryman?s failure to make radio contact meant that he was presumed dead and, therefore, his captors could kill him with impunity. As a result, Lt. Col. Berryman was extremely concerned that his family would never know what happened to him. When he continued to refuse to answer questions during an interrogation, his captors knocked him to the ground, cuffed his hands behind his back, and then jerked him up roughly by the chain linking his handcuffs, making them as tight as possible.
When the guards brought him out of the interrogation bunker, a number of Iraqi soldiers punched, kicked, and spit on him. While waiting in an Armored Personnel Carrier that would transport him to Basra, Lt. Col. Berryman felt a guard?s fingers running through his hair as if part of a sexual advance. Blindfolded and handcuffed, he was helpless to prevent any assault that might ensue. At that point, two more guards entered the vehicle and began beating Lt. Col. Berryman?s head. To ensure that Lt. Col. Berryman would take the full impact of each punch, one guard held Lt. Col. Berryman?s head against the guard?s knee while the other two guards punched him. That prevented him from using protective techniques he had learned as a boxer in college.
At Basra, Lt. Col. Berryman was inspected to determine whether he was circumcised, and he was questioned about his religion. When he answered that he was a Baptist, his captors called him a ?lying Jew.? A guard then hit his left leg below the knee with an instrument that felt like a heavy club. Lt. Col. Berryman immediately collapsed in excruciating pain — this blow had broken the fibula in his left leg. Another guard then used a similar club to attack his right leg. The two guards continued beating him as he rolled on the floor trying to protect his left leg.
As he continued to resist answering their questions, Lt. Col. Berryman was told that if he did not answer their questions they would break his other leg. Two guards pinned him to the wall and one kicked his left leg, causing him to collapse to the ground in pain. The others began kicking and beating him. One guard used a steel-toed boot to kick a piece of flesh out of Lt. Ccl. Berryman?s leg, exposing the bone. A lit cigarette was then pressed several times against his forehead and then pressed against his nose and each ear. The cigarette was then crushed out in an open wound in his neck.
Once in Baghdad, Lt. Col. Berryman was thrown into a prison cell from which he could clearly hear other American POWs being beaten by Iraqis. These were among the worst sounds he remembered from his experience while a captive of Iraq, both because it was excruciating to hear a fellow human suffering and because he knew that it would soon be his turn to be beaten again. Indeed, his cell door soon opened and two Iraqis entered. The larger one kicked his left leg and punched him. After about five minutes of continuous beating, these Iraqis left his cell and moved on to the prisoner in the adjacent cell. This cycle repeated itself two more times. During the last session, Lt. Col. Berryman asked the Iraqis what they wanted. They replied simply and coldly that they wanted to kill him, and then they continued beating him. Lt. Col. Berryman feared for his life every moment he was held captive in Iraq.
The next day, he was taken to what the POWs referred to as the ?Biltmore,? where he was kept in solitary confinement in a six-by-ten-foot cell with almost no light and a non-functioning toilet. He was fed a starvation diet of two scoops of broth and two small pieces of pita bread each day. He was given only two thin blankets for protection against the freezing Baghdad nights. After several weeks, he began to lose feeling in his hands because of the severe cold. He lost 25 pounds during the thirty-seven days he was in Iraqi captivity.
The interrogations continued at the Biltmore. They varied in length from a few minutes to hours. On two occasions, he was forced to make videotaped statements. The beatings during these interrogations also continued. In addition to their fists, the guards often used instruments, including rubber hoses, clubs, and pistol barrels. At one point, the interrogator placed a gun to Lt. Col. Berryman?s head and told him that if he did not answer the remaining questions correctly, he would die.
At another interrogation session, his hands were held on the table in front of him. The interrogator stuck a knife between two of Lt. Col. Berryman?s fingers and announced that he would have to answer five questions. He was told that for each answer deemed insufficient his interrogator would cut off a finger. Lt. Col. Berryman?s fear at that point was so overwhelming that he was unable to answer any question. He was then told he would have a similar interrogation several days later.
He was spared that particular torture when the Biltmore was bombed by Allied forces. He was moved to a civilian prison, dubbed ?Joliet? by the POWs, where he contracted dysentery that plagued him for years after his return to the United States and still continues to cause a number of problems.
Only after his release did he begin to receive appropriate medical attention for his broken leg and other injuries. Every day of his life, Lt. Col. Berryman thinks about the torture he experienced in Iraq. Nightmares about his time there continued for months after his return to the United States. He was grounded from flight status during this time. To this day, he cannot tolerate anyone touching his wrists because nerve damage from the handcuffs he wore has never fully healed.
As a result of his treatment in Iraq during his captivity, Lt. Col. Berryman developed PTSD. Although his symptoms have fluctuated, he continues to meet criteria for the full disorder. He also suffers symptoms of chronic depression including loss of pleasure, social withdrawal, and nihilistic feelings. These symptoms have seriously affected his family life. He is more withdrawn, more solitary, and less trustful now than before his torture by Iraq while held as a POW. This emotional shift inward caused a great strain to his marriage that he and his wife have resolved only with significant effort.
His POW experience also had a negative impact on his career, causing a two-year delay in his promotion to Lieutenant Colonel.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you? I agree. Do unto the Iraqi military, insurgents, and terrorists as they HAVE done unto us, as they will continue to do unto us. Protect the innocent and decimate the guilty. They do not deserve mercy or life, let alone our taxes to humanely feed them and keep them warm.
Posted by: Brian at June 24, 2005 02:25 AMOtter:
Nazis ran on a Conservative Christian Platform. The main reason Russia was invaded was because the Nazis despised the Socialists/Communists.
Posted by: Aldous at June 24, 2005 05:08 AMOtter said: “To the jerk who thinks Christians are more of a threat than Muslims to the U.S., wake up and smell the coffee.”
Most Americans are Christian. Americans murdered 5 times as many other Americans in America last year as Muslims killed in the 9/11 attack. I would suggest you wake up and take in some facts. Christians in America kill more Americans in any year than Muslims have killed in the last century.
A little factual perspective can sure dampen a person’s rhetoric, can’t it? So much for religious superiority on that front.
Posted by: David R. Remer at June 24, 2005 07:45 AMBrian,
Your detailed story of why Americans should torture POWs is so far off of why we shouldn’t use torture, and your biblical reference is backward from what you said.
It is do unto others, not do TO others. Either Orwellian or Hammurabi, i can’t decide. Maybe both, Hammurabi for the eye for an eye bit, then Orwell for the doublethink. Hey!!!! that describes the current regime in the US.
Dave if that’s your self-validation, then you have no business expressing your thoughts (and I use that word loosely because that implies thinking) on matters you have no clue about, and believe me, It’s VERY obvious you have no clue on this matter.
Posted by: Kevin at June 24, 2005 08:10 AM“Most Americans are Christian. Americans murdered 5 times as many other Americans in America last year as Muslims killed in the 9/11 attack. I would suggest you wake up and take in some facts. Christians in America kill more Americans in any year than Muslims have killed in the last century.”
Dave,
“If all Fleeps are Sloops and all Sloops are Loopies, then all Fleeps are definitely Loopies.”
Sound familiar? Think about it.
Posted by: Kevin at June 24, 2005 08:41 AMDanny said
How many FRECs have flown planes into civilian structures killing thousands of innocent citizens? It is amazing to me how quickly 9/11 was forgotten.Remember Oklahoma City? FRECs killed 168 of their fellow Americans there. A FREC planted the bomb at the Atlanta Olympics. In fact, with the exception of 9/11, the most dangerous terrorists on American soil have all been FRECs.
Posted by: ElliottBay at June 24, 2005 10:40 AM
Kevin,
What I believe is, until it’s fun again, you’ve proven yourself unworthy of any more of my time.
Bye bye, good luck with that little brain problem,
Dave
Now Dave,
No need to take your ball and go home. I’ve heard that things aren’t fun when you don’t have the capability to understand. I just assumed you would understand that reference,(My mistake, I will no longer assume that you understand anything) It’s taken from an I.Q. test and I used to illustrate that just because Americans are mostly Christian doesn’t mean they do all or even most of the killing.
Priceless retort Kevin. I love it when folks leave the topic because they can’t come up with an approriate counter. Well said, Kevin.
Posted by: David R. Remer at June 24, 2005 11:31 AMI have been enjoying my participation here at Watchblog immensely for years now, Kevin, and you are not about to change that, I can assure you.
Posted by: David R. Remer at June 24, 2005 11:33 AMTHE CRUSADES WERE “HOLY WARS” AS WELL. I THINK THE MIDDLE AGED CRUSADES WERE MORE HONEST THAN THE CURRENT ATTACKS AGAINST ISLAM BECAUSE THERE WAS LITTLE DOUBT ABOUT THE MOTIVATION. THEY WERE PURSUED FOR THE LOOT.
WHAT I CANNOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE CURRENT CHRISTIAN CRUSADE IS THE FACT THAT THE ATTACKERS OF THE THE UNITED STATES ON 9/11/01 WERE OVERWHEMINGLY SAUDI ARABIAN BUT THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION HAS NOT ATTACKED NOR EVEN CRITCIZED SAUDI ARABIA.
Posted by: JLISON at June 24, 2005 11:39 AMDave,
I must disagree with your comment on leaving the topic as I did write this:
“It’s taken from an I.Q. test and I used to illustrate that just because Americans are mostly Christian doesn’t mean they do all or even most of the killing.”
Which is what I was “countering” from the start.
Dave,
If you would please accept this:
“I sincerely regret if what I said causes anybody to misunderstand my true feelings.”
“it is very clear that even though I thought I had said something that clarified the situation, to many people it was still unclear.”
“Some may believe that my remarks crossed line. To them, I extend my heartfelt apologies.”
“I offer my apology for those offended by my words.”
Off the top of my head, I can only think of one American who killed in the ‘Name of God’ in the recent past. That was the woman who killed her children because ‘God’ told her to.
I don’t remember McVey saying he did it in the name of ‘God’ -did he? AND isn’t that case still open?
I don’t see how the two can be compared.
We don’t have Christian churches recruiting killers in the name of ‘God’ - that I know of.
We don’t have Christian leaders telling people that the surest way to get to heaven is to blow yourself up at a market full of innocent people.
Dawn,
The guy who shot the abortion Doctor comes to mind.
David Remer, Since I respect your opinions as posted here, I will repeat the thread that resulted in my departure from Kevinville:
Posted by Kevin at June 23, 2005 08:54 AM
I was just wondering if some of you even read and understand what Dawn wrote? Some of the comments are so politically biased, that they can’t be taken seriously. Amazing!
Posted by Dave at June 23, 2005 12:22 PM
Kevin, I did read Dawn’s post. I found it to be poorly supported and simultaneously narrow in its thrust and haphazard in its presentation. However, that’s probably because I have completely different perspective on religion then she does and have a divergent view of what’s a significant factor in these events than she does. There are those here who have gotten involved in disputing/discounting her views. Many have the same problems as the original post does. But, simply because those views are different doesn’t mean they’re wrong or ill informed.
Posted by Kevin at June 23, 2005 12:45 PM
Actually Dave, this is one of the best “supported” posts I have seen in this blog. Narrow and haphazard is just an opinion, and you are entitled to that so I don’t really need an explenation. What I was saying, was that a lot of the comments are so far out of touch with reality and don’t have anything to do with the point I believe Dawn was trying to get across. For instance: “Well, now I have this little gem to share. Thanks, Dawn! Please, let me know when you start advocating the construction of gas chambers for people who aren’t part of the Southern Baptist Convention, OK?” What the hell is that!!
Posted by Dave at June 23, 2005 02:33 PM
Kevin, As I posted, the lack of depth applies to replies as well. Generally, sarcasm in replies should be expected as part of the discussion. I would suspect that the poster of your “gem” wasn’t really expecting a serious counterpoint.
Posted by Dave at June 23, 2005 03:13 PM
James,
(…)For the math part, it’s not that the military needs “libs” to “balance it out” but that as the neocon chickenhawks lose more and more of their credibility, they will also lose their legitimacy as authority to the troops. The troops will them stop voting GOP. As far as Aldous bugging you with the “draft a repub” posts, I wonder if it’s as annoying as the “libs hate america” mantra?
Posted by Kevin at June 23, 2005 03:45 PM
“but that as the neocon chickenhawks lose more and more of their credibility, they will also lose their legitimacy as authority to the troops.The troops will them stop voting GOP.” I doubt it Dave, there is a big difference between the military mindset and the civilian one. Honor, God, and Country is what they fight for, which are the exact same 3 things the Libs are trying to destroy.
Posted by Dave at June 23, 2005 03:58 PM Kevin, Now there is the value added response we were all looking for! Thanks for the laugh and self validation.
Posted by Kevin at June 24, 2005 08:10 AM
Dave if that’s your self-validation, then you have no business expressing your thoughts (and I use that word loosely because that implies thinkingon matters you have no clue about, and believe me, It’s VERY obvious you have no clue on this matter.)
Posted by Kevin at June 24, 2005 08:41 AM
“Most Americans are Christian. Americans murdered 5 times as many other Americans in America last year as Muslims killed in the 9/11 attack. I would suggest you wake up and take in some facts. Christians in America kill more Americans in any year than Muslims have killed in the last century.” Dave, “If all Fleeps are Sloops and all Sloops are Loopies, then all Fleeps are definitely Loopies.” Sound familiar? Think about it.
Posted by Dave at June 24, 2005 11:12 AM
Kevin, What I believe is, until it’s fun again, you’ve proven yourself unworthy of any more of my time. Bye bye, good luck with that little brain problem, Dave
Posted by Kevin at June 24, 2005 11:28 AM
Now Dave,
No need to take your ball and go home. I’ve heard that things aren’t fun when you don’t have the capability to understand. I just assumed you would understand that reference,(My mistake, I will no longer assume that you understand anything) It’s taken from an I.Q. test and I used to illustrate that just because Americans are mostly Christian doesn’t mean they do all or even most of the killing.
I wonder, Does Kevin know that in the Fleep sentence, it is TRUE that all FLEEPS are LOOPIES?
Posted by: Dave at June 24, 2005 12:42 PMYou are still comparing individual ‘nutcases’ to a massive movement.
LIVE FROM KEVINVILLE !!
Dave,
You forgot this one:
“Dave,
I must disagree with your comment on leaving the topic as I did write this:
“It’s taken from an I.Q. test and I used to illustrate that just because Americans are mostly Christian doesn’t mean they do all or even most of the killing.”
Which is what I was “countering” from the start.
Dave,
If you would please accept this:
“I sincerely regret if what I said causes anybody to misunderstand my true feelings.”
“it is very clear that even though I thought I had said something that clarified the situation, to many people it was still unclear.”
“Some may believe that my remarks crossed line. To them, I extend my heartfelt apologies.”
“I offer my apology for those offended by my words.”
Was my Durbin-esk apology not good enough for you?
And yes I know it’s true!
Next thing for you to figure out is how I meant it as a reference.
Keep trying! You can do it!!
Dave,
“Generally, sarcasm in replies should be expected as part of the discussion.”
Your not abandoning this earlier thought are you?
Seriously,I’ll stop if it really offends you.
Posted by: Kevin at June 24, 2005 01:32 PMDawn,
I agree that the unacceptable actions of a few outliers for a cause might not reflect the mission of a cause but it does detract from it.
2nd, I want to make it absolutely clear I am not justifying terrorism in any form with the following questions:
Does the fact that a movement is ‘massive’ validate the tenets of the movement? Perhaps in the same way that winning a vote validates an election?
Alternatively, if we accept that the insurgency is a fringe element of muslim ideals, then how are they different from FREC fringes (like that alliteration?)?
I agree with you on those points Dave(I’m sure that probably scares the hell out of you) The Frecs are very dangerous, But the frecs aren’t the most dangerous extremists we are facing today. We have to, when ever possible, fight one battle at a time AND we should start with the greatest threat. If you do not agree that the Muslim extremists are not are greatest threat in the war on terrorism, I would be interested to know who you think is.
Posted by: Kevin at June 24, 2005 02:11 PMKevin,
I don’t scare easy, so lets continue :-)
Christians would never view the “FREC”s as the primary threat because the FRECs are just an undesireable version of themsleves.
The reason Americans perceive the muslim extremists as the greatest threat is because we, for the most part, are not muslims.
I do believe that the greatest threat in the war on terrorism are the terrorists themselves, many of whom are muslim extremists. However, many of them are also nationalists, haters of percieved Christian/Zionist/American intervention in their affairs, and/or sectarian loons.
To add, I think the greatest threat to American “democracy” is the American religious right.
Just a quick observation from someone currently involved in this “holy war”. The fact is the US does not treat it as such, and until we wage total war we will never win. We spend all of our time trying to kowtow to muslim governments while terrorists are killing us out here on the road. Time to wake up!!!
Posted by: Eric at June 25, 2005 01:07 AMAnd what is the greatest threat to democracy elsewhere?
Posted by: Dawn at June 25, 2005 10:55 AMA dangerous threat to anyone anywhere at any time is a utopian idealist belief system no matter if it is Moslem, Socialist, Environmentalist, Christian etc. The attempt to “reenter the garden” by creating the perfect state (Religious or secular) has not brought heaven down to earth but hell up. These belief systems at first have only a few zealous adherents, but they can in a few short years set the world on fire. Fear the utopian idealist because anything even the death of millions of people can be justified in the name of his cause.
Posted by: Alan at June 25, 2005 11:57 AMDawn,
We are. These last 5 years have been examples of “Do as I say, not as I do.” We all know how great that works.
Posted by: Dave at June 28, 2005 12:39 PMJames:
In your response to Dave below which i have provided you within case you have forgotten what you have written
Dave
What are you talking about ? My list of concerns ?? Did you confuse me with someone else ??
Those figures are from MSNBC, I think they are pretty accurate. Aldous keeps calling for republicans to send their kids to the military. All I’m doing is asking him to stop.
What is the total military up to now ? A million ? it was 2 million before Clinton. (oops, sorry, i know you libs don’t want him to be mentioned)
*Careful Where you state Clinton You should have stated Emporer George I, Uncle Rummie and Trickey Dick Cheney Or as I refer to them “The 3 Stooges” those 3 started the Drawdown which Clinton is always blamed for what they started way back in 1991. What do you think the inspiration for KBR Was? If you answered the Drawdown I am pretty sure you’d not be far off. Look how red-faced and Angry the VP becomes when ever Haliburton is mentioned. Clinton did not even take Office until January 1993.
Posted by: James at June 23, 2005 03:02 PM
Blame Clinton all you want for the Base Closures, however give credit where it is due and don’t blame the Clinton’s for the 3 Stooges mistakes on ManPower. Just don’t allow it to happen again, “VOTE”.
As Always,
Wayne
