Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

I think both parties have their hippocracies, however lisa you make a good point that the Democrats have conflicts over policy that make them less cohesive and effective. The republicans have more cohesion because the factions of the GOP (Christians v Big Buisness) may not agree but what motivates these factions does not directly contradict the other. Tax cuts and faith based initiatives while contradictory does not have the same stark hippocracy as Save poor people v. Save the spotted big tooth bass. Or end dependence of foreign oil v. No alternative is good enough, because it has a draw back.

Lisa -

Didn’t your Mom ever tell you that you should never eat Iceberg lettuce? Compare the nutrition facts for iceberg with the facts for leaf lettuce. Twice as much fiber and ten times as much Vitamin A. No vegetarian worth his salt (three times as much in leaf than iceburg) would eat iceburg.

That, of course, doesn’t change the fact that PETA is utterly loony.

I can’t believe you’re all talking about lettuce like it’s some feelingless commodity. I think humans should only eat other humans; after all, what right do we have to impose on our environment?

We at People for the Ethical Treatment of Lettuce decry all this talk of eating living things. Like lettuce. Just because perch and humans move around doesn’t make them any better or more righteous than lettuce. Some of my best friends have been lettuce - and let me tell you, they’re very good listeners.

So be kind to lettuce - and eat your own arm.

Lisa, PETA has no problem with an individual raising their own private stash. It is the commercialization of fish farming that is proving to be fraught with unintended consequences. Are you aware that the toxins in some farm raised fish is higher than that of oceanic species which bear toxins?

Are you also aware of yesterday’s article of the Great Lakes once again becoming toxic from human waste runoff from outdated an incapacitated dual use waste and runoff drains?

Now, I agree with you there are fringe support groups which associate themselves with many of the conservation organizations working hard to keep it clean and keep treatment of animals humane. But, let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater, eh? Without some of these organizations we would never know what was killing us our deforming our newborns.

Also note last weeks report indicating growing numbers of dead zones in the oceans. Fish is rapidly leaving our diet here replaced by soy products and more beans.

BTW, I highly commend you on and your husband on your do it yourself lifestyle. I have been living that style for a couple decades now, and it is amazing how much money one can save by budgeting just 6 or 7 hours a week toward taking care of your own services and making some of your own products. It is immensely rewarding on a personal level as well.

Lisa,

Exellent article!

I’m no great writer, so I thank you for starting a thread that says what I’ve atempted to express for years.

Not so long ago ALL farmers voted aprox. 70-80% Dem., now its 50% at best.
The far left animalrights wacko’s in the party have driven them out, its either that or go out of business!

Check this link Lisa..

http://www.ussportsmen.org/interactive/features/Read.cfm?ID=1542

A NASCAR driver put the HSUS on her car as a sponcer, thats going over like a turd in the punch bowl!
She can’t understand why!..lol.

..lets see..humm..could it be that most NASCAR fans also hunt/fish and HSUS wants to ban that?

Both political parties have suffered because of their association with fringe lunatic groups. This is another example of it. THe Democrats tend to attract any group at all who claims to stand for “rights” of any kind. Immigrant rights, homeless rights, you name it. And the Republican party has been split asunder by people claiming to be religious activists who go in the opposite direction trying to limit free choice in a number of areas of life. Real Republican values are less gov’t interference in our lives, not more. THese so called conservatives make me sick. They are so unrepublican. And the Democrats have lost a lot of their core constituency because of all these fringe groups that they don’t want to be associated with.

Your right Lisa about PETA. They recently came to my county a told the farmers that they shouldn’t raise comerical live stock because that was being crule to the poor animals. Of coarse that went over like lead baloon.
The Democrats should dump all these envirowacko organizations like a hot potato. But unfortunately I don’t think they will.

PETL,
RIGHT ON! I’m a champion of corn myself.

Lettuce should be hunted in established seasons depending on the climate in which you live. Early in the season male lettuce heads may be taken with bow and arrow only. After bow season we can progress in the normal fashion to semi-automatic weapons. Dogs shall not be used to sniff out the lettuce nor can you spotlight them from your vehicle. When shooting “farm grown” lettuce and a single bullet also kills the tomato growing in the next row this “kill” qualifies as a salad and is only permissible on the final day of the season. Shooting lettuce and related vegetables from a tree stand is not allowed because it diminishes the “sporting” aspect of the outing. Eating freshly killed lettuce in the field due to the danger aspect of another hunter shooting you in the head because it is hidden behind the lettuce. Lettuce hunters wearing the color green, do so at their own risk.

Monica,

You wrote:

“And the Democrats have lost a lot of their core constituency because of all these fringe groups that they don’t want to be associated with.”

The problem for the DEM. party is they DO want to be associated with those groups!

The big tent only works to the point where you lose votes, and shoot yourself in the foot.

Religion and morals(in moderation) sells much better in America than animal-rights and anti-gun, those are just facts.

Steve,

I enjoy the humorous posts also, and I can be quite “colorfull” at times, but if we just anger those on the other side, will we get a true debate on an important political issue?

Both political parties have suffered because of their association with fringe lunatic groups.

The difference is that PETA has little impact on the Democrats’ proposed legislation while the lunatic fringe increasingly runs the Republican party.

“P.E.T.A. has a had an on-going campaign for people to “go veg”. You will NOT save the world’s poor by making them eat lettuce and grass.”

No, but if you include soybeans (for protein), potatoes (for starches), a variety of fruits, etc., you can feed a lot more people per acre of farmland than you can raising cows, pigs, fish, chickens, or just about any other animal.

Beagle, Point taken.

It seems that everywhere you look there is someone promoting a business involving land, animals, fish, insects, etc. For years people have raised and sold earthworms, you breed and raise horses for commercial and recreational use, a very big promotion is under way for raising LLamas for wool or fleece, crickets are raised for various purposes, there are catfish farms, trout farms (both for food sources and for recreational purposes. I could go on forever. Various groups have the circus under attack for abuse to animals (not always true but occasionally).

There are many ways to become more dependent on our natural resources. Unfortunately many if not most of those involve drilling, chopping down/clearing “federal” land areas, oil and natural gas exploration off our coastline (GOD forbid the vacationers and/or rich property owners should have to see an oil platform from their beach or deck). Vehicles that can be powered with fuels other than gasoline are possible even today. Can’t have those because of automaker (and after market) lobbies influence on politicians on both sides of the aisle.

Let’s stop telling people the dangers that they (and others) may incur by raising their own produce (vegetables animals, fish) and help them perfect the process. Let’s stop throwing ourselves in front of whale boats to save the whales. I don’t want to see whales eradicated any more than the next person but the people most responsible for doing it are Asian and/or Nordic, people over which we have no control. The UN has not been successful in getting them to cease so 5 guys in a Greenpeace rubber boat will not either.

The waterways becoming toxic, stop industrial waste disposal.

If gas costs me less at the pump, if heating utilities can be cheaper if my food and medicine supply can be safer and cheaper, I don’t care if there is a windmill in my back yard. I’ll figure a way to beautify it.

Rob Cottrell,

You are correct about soybeens( almost pure protien) and potatoes for starch and carbs.(also a great sourse of vitimin C), but people also like meat.

Ask your wife/girlfriend next Fri. if she would like to go out for a steak/lobster or stay home for a tater and salad?

Sure they always would prefer to go out for dinner, it tells them you love them, but if there was a big market for a ‘Tater Hut” or a “salad barn”, someone would be offering that option by now.

Beagle-

I meant the traditional core democrat constituency (like the trade unions) wants to distance itself from the fringe groups who do not share their basic values. You are right to say that to some degree the Democrats encouraged the special rights flavor of the month groups just to get more votes. The same can still be said about the Republican party kow towing to fundamentalist religious groups to gain votes from them.

Rob Cottrell,

While it may be true that you can feed a lot more people per acre that produces soybeans and potatoes compared to cattle, pigs, etc.and, that the nutritional value of soybeans is extrordinary,I believe that the person who is in business to produce either will be more concerned as to the dollar value that an acre will yield than the nutritional value.

“Ask your wife/girlfriend next Fri. if she would like to go out for a steak/lobster or stay home for a tater and salad?”

:-) Actually, my wife’s a vegan, so she’d prefer to go out to a japanese restaurant for steamed rice and teriyaki vegetables.

“While it may be true that you can feed a lot more people per acre that produces soybeans and potatoes compared to cattle, pigs, etc.and, that the nutritional value of soybeans is extrordinary,I believe that the person who is in business to produce either will be more concerned as to the dollar value that an acre will yield than the nutritional value.”

Absolutely true, but we weren’t talking about profits — we were talking about feeding the poor. You can feed more people with less money using fruits, vegetables, and grains than you can with steaks, eggs, and cheese.

There’s no love lost between me and PETA, personally, but there are some practices that are objectionable on grounds other than common senseless protests of animal pain from fringe groups like PETA.

Factory farms are our biggest producers and biggest offenders when it comes to food. The designs of their pens are cramped and put tightly together, resulting in a high stress environment that gets the animals sick more, requiring them to be pumped full of antibiotics and hormones, which may be contributing to bacterial resistance and endocrine problems in human beings. Addtionally, the conditions are very unsanitary, meaning that food-borne pathogens are spreading like wildfire through the food supply.

If you think that’s not so bad, ask yourself why you’ve got instructions on meat requiring it be cook thoroughly? Used to be, one could risk a hamburger rare. Now that’s risking E. Coli.

In dealing with aquaculture, we must be careful to limit both the input and output of toxic substances and pollutants. Otherwise, it’s the same B.S. as with regular meats.

Hike the standards up. Get people researching the particular problems and coming up with solutions. Animal processing doesn’t have to be cruel. It can be done so that the animal never knows what hit it. It also doesn’t have to be the health hazard it is now. We can build pens and processing plants that don’t act as superhighways for the foodborne illnesses.

We shouldn’t do this because it’s good for these animals. We should do this because it’s in our interest.

I think Lisa’s article is a good example of the predicament that many governments face in the modern world, especially those governments faced with the prospect of feeding a skyrocketing population. I think it is also a question of the hard science of the problem of protein based diets versus the incentive or resources available to change those diets. While I am sympathetic to PETA, I think they at times deserve their scapegoat status of representing far left ideologies.

As is well documented, it takes a tremendous amount of resources to produce the fish (or cows, pigs, etc.). Many of the problems that environmentalists stress is the reality that farm fish are typically fed with ocean fish, thereby severely depleting the wild stock of fish. This is turn plays havoc on the ocean ecosystem. Many similar things occur with cattle, where we grow grain in order to feed the animals to begin with. It is further fairly well documented (though certainly not touted by many with business connections, right or left) that the U.S. alone could solve the hunger problem in the world if we took our grain and fed it directly to people instead of to the animals. My point isn’t necessarily that we should stop eating meat (I love to have a steak every once in a while) but let’s at least be conscious of the environmental and social ramifications of our behaviour and not blame so-called fringe groups for attempting to point out hard science.

Rob Cottrell,

Sure you can feed more people with an acre yield of soybeans and such than cattle, pigs, etc. I do not disagree.

If you ever expect to accomplish that however YOU better own the land because if I do, we will have a whole bunch of livestock.

Of course, the irony is, if we all ate the diet that would make us live the longest, we would have far less demand on meat products, since we eat way too much meat as it is.

We are born omnivores, certainly. But any study of an omnivore population shows that if it skews towards meat as its primary diet, then it dies sooner, and has a variety of more health problems. An omnivore whose diets skews towards vegetables, whole grains, and fruits, supplemented with meat, lives much longer with less problems.

Why? Diseases spread most quickly through biological systems that are similar. Meat is much more similar to our biology than plants. You have animals who are unhealthy, at some point, they’ll do something to you.

And Stephen is right, the issue with farming (though PETA takes it overboard, as usual) is that factory farming is probably one of the biggest health threats to this nation. Have you ever seen a lake of feces? The run-offs from these lakes cause massive fish kills and some pretty spectacular diseases in the animals that live besides these farms.

Raising your own fish IS smart planning. But there’s a sustainable way to farm, the same as there is a sustainable way to fish. And unsustainable farming is just as harmful as unsustainable fishing.

The very best group I’ve ever seen at work is the Nature Conservancy. This is the model we should all emulate. They don’t go in (like PETA) and alienate and vilify everyone they come into contact with. Right now they have a program that gives incentives to farmers to engage in sustainable farming practices that give back to the environment, rather than creating a drain on it. Through their programs, farmers are actually adoping these practices long term. (Because they work).

Factory trawlers are the main reason that the cod stock collapsed in Newfoundland. Now we have factory farms all along the east coast that are the main reason that farm-raised salmon are considered unhealthy (spread of disease).

I actually eat kosher meat, because they’re the only ones that really care if their animals are healthy before they’re slaughtered. Everything else, these days, feels like a crapshoot.

Julia

Rob Cottrell,

Whatever you wife likes to eat, taking her out for dinner still says you love her, and thats never a bad thing!
The general public in a poll of dinner choices might not agree with that option, but I guess that makes your wife special, tell her so!

Monica,

The trade unions(once a solid Dem. base of support) have taken a bad hit over the gun/hunting issues.
Most within that group are just average working “joe’s” that work their ass off all week, and on the weekend they enjoy hunting/fishing.
Those that enjoy that in their time off don’t care much for donating money to a party that will enbrace groups that wish to ban those activitys.

I’m not passing judgement on any political party for their choices in groups they enbrace, I just wonder if the Dem.’s have enbraced so many fringe groups that their base is fleeing?

I am VERY liberal (at the moment I lean toward the Democrat’s agenda because…well…I think we all know why) but I am NOT a democrat. I support animal rights too. That being said, I think it is important to emphasize here that to me and to many others, what that means is we want to see tougher laws for people who inflict cruelty to animals. I for one, (as well as MOST Humans, I think) am also a Carnivore. I LOVE meat! (I also love vegetables, fruits and grains)

So far, no one here has commented on the severe Hypocracy of PETA. They believe it is cruel to even have a pet. (companion animal) They are not just talking about those who abuse /neglect their pets but firmly believe no one should be able to have a pet, AT ALL! They believe it is cruel to use service animals such as seeing eye dogs or hearing ear dogs, etc. They brag about all the animals they save each year. What they NEVER tell you is how many of these same “saved” animals are killed each year by Euthanasia. I agree that there are many in the democratic party that want the association of PETA for political gain. But PLEASE, don’t associate this radical group of hypocrits with being liberal. I am here to say it is not true for many, many of us.
sassyliberal

If I’ve said it once I’ll say it a thousand times: The problem with all minority races, groups,institutions etc. is that they try to fight every cause no matter how ignorant it shall be and lose credibility!I hate PETA but that dosn’t mean I want to torture animals and rape ecosystems! Just fight the big, non-crazy causes is all I ask!!!! People like Pamela Anderson kill me (I say her because she has recently jumped on the soap box for chickens and chinchillas)! Everything about that woman is fake and all her beauty products and regimes would be interesting to see how enviro. friendly they are!!!
I have a chinchilla(that I love dearly)for a pet! So I’m very partial to their plight! But, I still find Mrs. Anderson and her group of crazies ludacris!

sassyliberal~
I don’t think anyone wants to see animals treated cruely!The problem with the fight for stricter laws on those cases is that most people don’t feel perpetraitors get lenghty enough sentences for killing other human beings and are not willing to move on to “animals” until the other is fixed!

All: Check out this website detailing what complete and total hypocrites (a word the left uses in constant refrain) PETA are. Very detailed, with facts/figures, and some very good information.

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

I am just guessing here but I wager that nobody who is posting an anti grow, catch or breed food source has ever had to depend upon doing so for their (or their family’s) survival. None have lost everything due to drought, disease or government control.

Stephen did not design an animal pen that was cramped and conduct studies to prove that this caused them to be stressed, get sick, receive drugs that caused them to develop a bacterial resistance. Raise the standards and increase the research. Money from the sky will fund it.

Ant is not in the fish farming business and has no idea what they are fed. Ocean fish he says. Let,s catch a bunch of ocean fish and send them to Des Moines, Iowa to a fish farm.

David, through watching the Amazing Discoveries show appears to have first hand knowlege of human waste going into the Great Lakes and, the specific impact that this has on the ecology.

Julia, from working on a trawler has experienced first hand that the Cod stock collapsed in Newfoundland reulting (at least in part) in factory farms all along the east coast breeding diseased salmon.

Unless you get your veggies virtually at the peak of maturity from the vine or plant, a tremendous amount of the nutritional value is lost in transportation, presentation and processing. Recovering them through vitamins is not a great solution because the vitamin will provide several hundred % of the daily requirement which, your body cannot absorb anyway.

Grow your own veggies, slaughter your own hogs, calves, cows and lambs, grow your own grapes, make wine, milk your own cows them invite the PETA people over for a good meal.

As I said previously, my wife is a vegan. It’s worth noting, though, that even she can’t stand PETA. They’re an extremist fringe group.

Just because PETA is on the “left” doesn’t mean that the left should be judged based upon the actions of PETA. Most on the “left” would rather have a double-cheeseburger and a pet dog, thank you very much.

Likewise, I agree with many of the assertions of the NRA, but consider them too right-wing-wacko-nut-jobby for me to want to be counted among them.

Both sides have extremes that the other side can hold up as straw men to cloud the issues. If you really want to have a meaningful debate, though, you need to attack the wackos like Dean(D) and Bush(R), instead of those at the fringe.

Traci,
I totally agree with you here. I don’t think any responsible person (left, right or in-between) wants to see animals mistreated in any way. I also agree the fight for stricter consequences for it must take a back seat to Human cruelty. (murder, assault, etc. etc.) Thanks, Traci

Jason,
As I am one of the left to whom you refer, I must emphasize here that I call ‘em like I see ‘em. If you’ll read my comments (which were posted BEFORE yours) you will see what I mean. Thanks for posting the link. I have read much about PETA, but did not have the info here to post. Thanks.

Sassyliberal

PETL,

“I can’t believe you’re all talking about lettuce like it’s some feelingless commodity. I think humans should only eat other humans; after all, what right do we have to impose on our environment?”

This is the first time someone’s quote has made me laugh out loud. Kudos on the humor :)

On the note of PETA, I think it’s rather ironic that they often demand animals be treated better by humans than they are out in the wild. For instance, when a grizzly bear catches a salmon it will usually eat it alive (by tearing off the skin/fat with its maw). Just try doing that in the comfort of your own home and I guarantee you that PETA will come bustin’ through your front door SWAT-style to put their foot up your ass.

Zeek,

Your point on bears/salmon is well taken and truthfull. What about wolves killing deer/elk/caribou/buffalo? Have you ever seen films of that taken in the wild?
I have and its Knarley, hamstrung and half eaten while still ALIVE!

The animalrights groups not only think its the best way to control wildlife, but its fair and natural!

I’m not an elk,deer ect. but I would rather be shot than eaten alive.

It might be natural, but I would still rather be shot.

Calif. banned cougar hunting, now they are eating jogglers(mostly women and children), that was clever?
I take no glee in the simple-minded reaping what they sow, it would just make it easier on some issues, if the children would allow the adults to protect them.

Whether or not there is a ban on Cougar hunting I do not think it is wise to jog in the Cougar’s realm. Unless of course the Cougars are running wild in the streets in California. If the Cougar jogs in the human’s space, guess what happens to the Cougar (shooting ban or not). If joggers are where the Cougars can get them I will bet that more joggers get snake bit than attacked by Cougars.

Steve,
Your right, more people a snake bit than cougar bit. But it still happens now and again. And when it does the cops and game wardens go out and hunt it down and kill it. Why don’t they do it with snakes?

I own 246 acres that I grow my own food on. I also keep my granddaughters horse on it and raise a hog or two and a couple of calves for my family.
If one of those PETA whackos wants to jump between me and a hog I’m about to butcher for food for my family, I’ll be glad to show him what it means to give you life for a cause.

Ron Brown,

“And when it does the cops and game wardens go out and hunt it down and kill it. Why don’t they do it with snakes?”

Because they’re my zodiac sign :P

Actually, I have a policy with animals: you kill it, you eat it. I think it’s a nice middle ground because it doesn’t allow for needless killing of animals, but at the same time it realizes/accepts just how tasty animals can be :)

One thing unsaid, but I think implied by a few responses from the left, is that the extremists on the right are just as kooky as PETA, which equates fried chicken with the Holocaust. Would these right-wing wackos be those weirdos who think marriage should be reserved for one man and one woman, who think an embryo is a person and should not be killed (for convenience or research), or those who think that the US should use its military to try to establish democracy in the Middle East?

steve,
Regarding your post that most of us have no direct experience in farming, commercial fishing etc.
If we can’t have opinions on such subjects from reading etc. we’re sure going to be limited. A Stone Age man had to learn mostly from his own experience, let’s hope we’ve progressed far enouugh to learn from other people’s experience. Of course we’ve got to learn to “consider the source.”
In reference to PETA, I’m one of those Liberal Democrats, but I have no use whatever for extremists like they are.

Brett,

When I implied that right-wing groups can be wacko, too, I was referring to such groups as the Ku Klux Klan, Neo-Nazi “skinhead” organizations, western polygamist groups, and anti-government militias.

I actually consider such debates as teenagers dying in back-alley clinics vs. fetuses dying in clean-room surgery to be rational political dialog, not far-wing extremism.

In general, the more likely one is to throw out the “extremist” label, the farther from the mainstream that person is likely to be.

Rob,

That is good to hear - it sounds like you are much more rational than the Senate Democrats who keep harping the Bush’s judges are right wing extremists for believing things similar to what I stated.

And for the record, I will cast my vote for 10’s to 100’s of back alley abortion deaths over the 1,000’s to 100,000’s of clean surgical deaths of our nations unborn. The first former has control over their action and circumstance, the latter does not.

PETA is going around telling kids that their parents want to eat their pets if the dems want to side with them on this why is the media not reporting this? this tells you how liberal the media is and desperate to get votes.

If God didn’t want us to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?

Steve,

Actually, I come from a family of farmers (my mom’s side), and helped work the farm when I was a kid. A lot of my family still work on their small family farms in Arkansas and up in the Delta. My granddad sold John Deere equipment most of his life as well. And my parents have a small plot that they grow their food on. I would do the same, but I don’t have access to anything but potted plants currently.

Granddad, and my cousins and I have had long discussions about sustainable farming, and the invasion of the big commercial farms in the South, which have been bankrupting them. In addition, you can smell the feces from these places for miles. Not the same as farming in the “good ole days”.

I also know something about the timber industry, and I’ve seen it done right, and I’ve seen it done wrong.

As for your jab across the board that all of us should keep our mouths shut since we have no first hand experience in what we’re talking about, I suppose since I’ve never had cancer, I can’t say for certain that it kills people.

Please, Steve.

You don’t believe me? Do a google search “cod” collapse” “trawler”. You don’t think there’s evidence that factory trawlers caused the long term collapse of fish stocks? Why dont’ you take it up with the American and Canadian research teams that reported they were problem number one, and so banned them from those waters, AND put a ban into effect that no more American factory trawlers would be built (ban is about to expire by the way).

What we need is a worldwide ban on these trawlers. They’re a menace.

As for saying that fishing farms are partly a result of the collapse of the cod stock, I stand behind that. We turned to farming after almost all of our fish stock started declining from overfishing in the 70’s, with culprit #1 being factory trawlers.

The dolution of fish farming isn’t a bad one. However, there are certainly some unsustainable practices going on, that create an environment to spread disease between fish.

There’s a way to farm fish, and there’s a way to farm the land. Rotation farming works. What we need to learn these days, is there’s a cost for packing animals close together (disease). There’s also a cost for having them pack on the pounds as quickly as possible (disease, and higher levels of toxins in the meat).

It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure this stuff out.

Julia

You really haven’t anything to fret over Lisa. PETA is definitely a part of the lunatic fringe. But let’s face it: it takes all kinds. There are Fruitarians who believe we should only eat fruits that have fallen naturally (you can’t pick them). And then there are Breatharians who believe we can sustain ourselves on breath alone (poor airborne bacteria). I’m sure these folks could be considered liberal but that doesn’t mean they are involved in the Dem platform.

And to indulge in lukewarm apologia for PETA regarding their euthanasia: it is a logistical problem. Too many animals means no money means no food means animals starve to death and PETA goes out of business. I imagine they aren’t the type of organization that can afford large tracks of land plus administration for no-kill shelters. But then again, they are crazy. You can be insane and conflicted while not being a hypocrite.

PETA is right about pets, though. My dog suffers a lot more being alive than he would have if I had just let him starve to death on the streets all those many years ago. And my poor kitty, he would have never known the suffering of a stomach infection had I not taken him in from the industrial park where I found him. Every day, I can taste the hate they feel for me in their bitter kisses and blood-curdling purrs.

Oh, and if anyone is interested in what lettuce really thinks, you might want to read this.

steve-
Give me a break. Do I have to reconstruct biology from its foundations to argue for or against Evolution? Do I have to run experiments on animals in pens to find out from reliable sources what the factory farms do?

I’m no vegan myself, and I’m not arguing against agriculture or meat eating. I’d be the first to tell you what the signficance of an acidic stomach and relatively short intestinal track is. I’d also be the last to tell you that this civilization or our environment could long withstand the rigors of people doing sustenance farming. This goes back to the second entry in my series Tumblers in the Lock of Time

The question of the support of our society is not status quo versus backsliding. In my article, I state that satisfaction with the status quo can be an obstacle to better things. I think this is the case here. Your question about who pays for it is fair, but not the implication hidden there that it is far too expensive. I don’t think that’s true. I think improvements could be made on a paying basis, and could in fact improve the product. But it’s not something that’s going occur if pressure is not put on these folks to improve their food production practices.

I have the greatest respect for vegetarians. I myself was a vegetarian for quite some time, and about half my family is vegetarian. While most vegetarians are not really even tempted to have meat, it takes a lot of effort and commitment to keep it up. Standing up for the lives of animals is a great cause, and changing one’s lifestyle to do so is a great action.

However, I cannot stand PETA, because as an organization it expects people to conform to their own beliefs. It is the exact same thing that probably most of the PETA members protest about the Evangelic Christians trying to impose their beliefs on the rest of the country.

I think you could draw a parallel between the pro-life movement and the animal-rights movement and their persecption in society. While pro-lifers believe that the unborn child has the same rights as a human out of the womb, the pro-choice movement believes that the unborn child is not a “person” until a certain point and does not deserve those rights. While the animals-rights movement believes that animals, as living beings, have the same right to respect and “happiness” as humans, their opposition sees animals as “lower beings”, one might say, and sees problems among humans as much more important to solve. In both situations, the “one that cannot speak for itself” is seen by some as on the same level as regular humans while their opposition sees humans (or born humans) as more important. It all comes down to whether or not you think fighting for the rights of born human beings is more important, or not, than for the rights of unborn babies or animals.

Wow-

Tons of mis-information here.

first of all: PETA doesn’t care if you have a pet.

second: peta doesn’t think people should eat meat - but if you think they care about you raising a few fish in your back yard - you’re deluding yourself.

third - if tyson did to dogs what they do to chickens - it would be international news. Things like de-beaking and dipping birds into electrified water or using an electrified anal probe are in fact cruel. If I cut off my dogs snout, then kept him alive for a few years, while force feeding him until he was so fat and his legs we’re so weak that he couldn’t walk before electrocuting him and then eating him, I’d go to jail. The meat industry does that millions of times over every year.

fourth - given the horrible conditions commercial animals live in, the amount of meat Americans waste every year is truly embarrassing.

as for the petakillsanimals website. While PETA has euthanized 10,000 animals over the last 7 years for various reasons - aprox. 5 million unwanted pets are euthanized every year. If you hate to see animals being put down, get them fixed.

PETA is a terrorist group plain and simple. No different than ELF. They should be treated as such.

PETA
People Eating The Animals

Yea that’s it!

In what possible way could PETA be considered a terrorist group. To say that is to remove meaning from the term.

Terrorists? Yeah, that’s the ticket. PETA’s rhetoric is just so over the top. All that anti-American pamphleteering and picketing is getting out of hand. I’ve heard the Animal Liberation Front has started abducting veterinarians and sawing their heads off while video taping it. And ELF, omg! They’ve been collecting spent nuclear material from open air storage facilities across the US and are planning on spiking trees with them. The bastards! I think it’s high time we invade ANWR.

I removed Viper’s comment because his website was not “relative” to this discussion, if you catch my drift…

My apologies to those (Ron and Julia) who I flushed out as not having hands on experience on components of this issue. I would never have guessed that they each were (or have) farming backgrounds.

The real question remains however regarding who is going to pay for the solutions to the bleeding heart liberal position(s) regarding this “diet” issue and, how many constitutional rights will be violated as a result of most.

Rob~
I was never aware that the KKK, skinheads, and anti-government militias were considered right-wing groups? You may want to tell them that because I’m sure they will want to clear that misconception up fast! (I think the anti-government was the first clue)

PETA has a long history of MAJOR vandalism and costing companies MILLIONS of dollars in research money. This does not include the research that has either been set back several years or completely halted. I am of the opinion that a certain amount of research and experimentation is needed on animals in order to save the lives of HUMANS. If you have ever seen the pain and suffering by a person afflicted with cancer you will understand why sometimes animals need to be used in research. ELF has a long history of bombing and injuring PEOPLE to further their cause. Terrorism takes many forms. The media alway lessons the stories relating to PETA and ELF. The media needs to attack these groups with the same vigor they attack our current president.

I can’t believe you’re all talking about lettuce like it’s some feelingless commodity. I think humans should only eat other humans

Wait! I heard about that,

On the other side, the liberal People for the American Way released an ad May 3 attacking both Owen and Brown. The PFAW ad says of Brown, “She’s so radical that she says, with programs like Social Security and Medicare, seniors are cannibalizing their grandchildren!”

I knew it!

Actually, Brown was speaking about the debt being passed on to future generations, not suggesting that Medicare or Social Security causes old people to eat human flesh.

Oh. Never mind. Sorry. Thanks for clearing that up, FactCheck.org

Seriously, Lisa thanks for keeping track of those three wackos at PETA. And thank God they vote Green instead of Democrat. That would be embarrassing.

Motorgod-
Terrorists? A nuisance perhaps, but not terrorists. We should not match their exaggerations with our own. It’s tempting rhetoric, but it makes us look silly in the eyes of those who are on the edge of sympathizing with these folks- the very minds we are trying to free ;-)

PETA’s very problem is it’s fundamentalism in terms of animal rights. It’s got rigid ideas on what constitutes cruelty, rigid ideas on what constitutes a good diet, and all too loose ideas on what appropriate methods are. They confuse getting a bunch of attention with getting their message out. The truth is, they’ve forgotten to consider the human factor, both on their side and the side of their message’s recipient.

I believe people must refine their own message towards the twin goals of elegance and accuracy, speaking truth with eloquence. The truth intensifies the aesthetic power of the message, the aesthetic power intensifies the feeling of rightness about the message.

corn, wheat and soybeans will probably produce more food per acre than most plants or animals. most of the planet is not suitable for growing these crops. some land is too dry, hillsides are prone to erosion, much of our land is too rocky, rough to cultivate.high elevations only support limited plant types. hillsides can produce hay and forage crops with very little erosion. cattle can get nourishment from just about anywhere they can walk and they are delicious. they produce easily digested protein from very crude material that is undigestable to us. all foods are important, we must grow what we can where we can.

Here’s examples of it being done right:

http://www.nature.org/initiatives/marine/

http://www.nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/states/iowa/files/ia_agriculture.pdf

Steve, the question is not who will pay for bleeding liberal “diet” issues, but who will pay for the long term effects of unsustainable farming practices.

Farmers paid for slash and burn farming. The fishermen in Newfoundland paid the price for overfishing their waters.

Unfortunately, we’re all going to have to pay a price this time around. You simply cannot farm fish and animals the way we are doing so today. You can’t have lakes of feces without paying a price. You can’t pack animals in together without paying a price.

We have radically changed our farming practices in the last 30 years. It’s time to regulate some of these practices. Who thinks it’s a good idea to have 1.5 million tons of raw sewage run-off flowing into the Mississippi river?

We treat our own sewage, but we somehow think the sewage of animals isn’t going to breed disease the same way our waste breeds disease?

It’s bad news. Bad news.

Julia

alan,

PETA is going around telling kids that their parents want to eat their pets if the dems want to side with them on this why is the media not reporting this? this tells you how liberal the media is and desperate to get votes.

Democrats don’t generally support that though. The media isn’t really that liberal… Even if you’re assumption about Dems being on the side of PETA the fact that the media isn’t reporting this still isn’t a sign that they are liberal. If anything the media is a neutral with right-leaning tendencies, but that’s really just because of MSNBC, CNN, Fox, and a few newspapers.

traci,

I was never aware that the KKK, skinheads, and anti-government militias were considered right-wing groups? You may want to tell them that because I’m sure they will want to clear that misconception up fast! (I think the anti-government was the first clue)

Right-wingers are “anti-government” too, just to a much lesser extent. The KKK, skinheads, aryan nation etc. are most definitely not politically neutral groups and are most certainly not left leaning. That leaves us with… well, you figure it out :)

Wow AP, I didn’t know you knew those three wackos at PETA, or the fact that you know them well enough to know they vote Green.

With people as worldy as you are, why do we need Watchblog? Heck, you even knew my best friends, the Rockefellers, who come to Paw Paw, IL every weekend for tea and crumpets. Everyone should know as much as you.

Zeek~
Having had the proud displeasure of knowing a few members of these hate-groups I can tell you without a doubt, they are not a part of the right-wing crazies the only ideas they express or live are their own and proud of it! Keep Fishing!

If anyone wants to taste something different from the American way of raising cattle for food, try some beef from Argentina. Talk about a sublime experience.
Free range meats of all types are available in the States at your better organic markets.
Yes it is a bit more expensive, but belive me it’s definetely worth it.

gym -

Nearly everything in your statement is correct. While no one land is suitable for every crop, any crop that will grow will feed more people than raising any type of live stock. This not an opinion, this is a quantifiable fact. Also - beef is in fact - pound for pound a very poor source of nutrients and is in fact extremely difficult to digest.

justin,

“Also - beef is in fact - pound for pound a very poor source of nutrients and is in fact extremely difficult to digest.”

I believe the exact ratio was 10:1 for energy that went into the cow via grass/plants vs. the energy you get out of the cow by eating it. The only thing is humans can’t digest most cellulose plants that herbivores can; so, while eating meat is inefficient, it is also an expedient means of harvesting the sun’s energy.

zeek - Im not saying that people should eat grass. What Im saying is that we can feed more people of an acre of land with plant matter than you can raising animals. Thats just a matter of math. I’m not trying to tell any one how to eat, but it wouldn’t hurt any one to realize that meat is much more of a luxury than a right.

What about the millions of deer that hunters shoot every year, would people really rather see them splattered all over the road?
Last year in Michigan, hunters killed 450,000 deer, another 60,000 are killed by cars. That doesn’t count the unreported car/deer accidents or the thousands of deer farmers shoot with crop damage permits.I wont bore you with abunch more stats except…there aprox 2-3 million deer in Mi., a mature doe(one full yr. old) will have 2-3 fawns each spring in so. mi., a doe fawn born in may will get bred in dec.-jan their first year and have their first fawn the following july-sept.

You can do the math and it dont take but a few yrs. for the herd to be 10x if peta and the humane socity had their way and hunting were banned.
And thats just the deer! All the other critters people hunt would do the same thing.

In so. Mi.many of the large lakes dotted with $1,000,000 lakefront homes with fancy groomed lawns thought it was a good idea to ban goose hunting. Now they cant walk in their yard without muck boots, they cant swim or eat the fish because of e-coli and other nasty stuff from the tons of goose crap washing into the lake.
That was clever huh ?
I hope they slip in goose shit, slide into the sewer they created, and drown in it!

Everyone should know as much as you.

I wish.

AP,

???

Beagle~
Being a MI resident myself, AMEN to your above statement! Another thing I would add to the deer problem is that we can all forget about growing our own food and being vegitarians….the deer would graze us out of house and home!

Traci,

Very true, In the Southern part where I live, you can forget about trying to grow sweetcorn, what the raccoons dont eat, the deer will finish long before its fully ripe.

Grow a field of pumpkins or squash??..thats a joke, at the first hint of ripeness the deer come in and stomp on them and eat only the seeds!
Farmers around here call them “hoofed rats”.

Beagle~
Up here in the Northern parts, we call them lunch!HEEHEE

I can attest to the deer, racoon, and rabbit problems the south has. However, we solved the problem by netting our garden in. Oh, and don’t forget the armadillos! They’ll grub up anything.

Squirrels… after five years of all-out war, we discovered that 500 yards of fishing wire, and suspending the bird feeders 20 feet away from any object that can be used as a leaping pad, was the only solution.

Cayenne pepper in birdseed also works, but I don’t know what that does to the birds intestines (birds don’t have taste buds, so they’ll eat it anyway).

Deer and horses definitely out-birth their habitats when they live in the wild. Fish probably do too.

At the end of the day it’s all about balance and sustainability. CAFO’s are not sustainable, and certainly not “farming in balance”.

Julia

Being a “Wellstone Liberal” from Minnesota I’d like to think I can attest to what the “liberal” wing of the Democratic party thinks and believes. And we think PETA is a joke and a bad one at that. I would agree with Rob that they are on par with the KKK and pro-life activist who bomb clinics. I also sympathize with Traci, Beagle and Julia. Even in the Twin Cities the deer, raccoon and geese problem are very serious. I’m always having conversations with liberals and conservatives who want more hunting permits issued for deer season just to prevent them all from dying in the winter or getting hit by a car. Interestingly enough a small suburb of St. Paul has hired a firm to round up the Canadian geese that flock to the city hall and bring them to a preserve area where there is controlled hunting, and it even seems to be working!

Julia,

Most birds have little to no sense of smell, most everything with a tounge has taste buds.
However, you make some good points.

As for the squirrels, save the fishing line for..?..uh..fishing.

Shoot the squirrels, clean and wash, par-boil untill tender, roll in flour spiced with salt,pepper, and a lil sage, deepfry in hot oil, ask any hayseed… Its good stuff !

Bill S,

I would assume that by “hire” this group, you mean that someone must pay them to control the geese?
Why not allow controled hunting there,(sportsmen pay for that), problem solved and the city can buy another swingset or something for their lil park, whatever?

…we think PETA is a joke and a bad one at that.

Sure, but any group that can get hot chicks to strip and sit in cages out on mainstreet can’t be all bad, right?

AP:

Sure, but any group that can get hot chicks to strip and sit in cages out on mainstreet can’t be all bad, right?

Ok, you got me there, lolololol. You had me laughing out loud.

Thanks for making my morning (and my husbands).

AP,

I think a group of pimps could get girls to do that, and for less money, however they would get arrested.

Soulds like a double standard.
The ACLU should take that case, Pimps V Peta girls, The Honorable Judge Percilla Owen? presideing….hehehe

My perspective?

Around where I live, it’s becoming sadly common to see two things: clear cut forests, and dead animals on the roads.

It use to be that the area around my home was pretty green. Lots of woods, lots of green. Not anymore. Houston’s sprawl is invading my area, and the woods are being replaced with strip malls, concrete and new subdivisions.

I could understand some development, but there are empty shops out here, and the green was one of the charms of this area. This is where environmentalism really counts- keeping us in touch with world not made of steel and concrete, even as the world we build depends so much on it. Sustainable progress, not that which burns us out, heart, mind, soul, and body.

PETL
So be kind to lettuce - and eat your own arm.

Shouldn’t that been “eat your own nose.” (to spite yourself?)

While you’re at it, lay off the Brussel Sprouts and Cabbage.

:-)

Beagle-
A company is hired to round up the Geese that flock on the city hall lawn, they are then taken to a preserve that allows controlled hunting.

As for getting the girls to strip, well…maybe I should join up, I mean they can’t be that bad I guess.

Bill S.,

My point was to cut out the middleman, don’t pay anyone to move the geese, shoot them there by sportsmen that will/do pay for that right.

I don’t know the area you speak of, but my guess would be there must be a lake next to that lawn, a shotgun shooting lakeward in a controled hunt, will be no danger, few geese will be killed, all will move on after a small ammount of hunting/shots fired.

If that area is truly so populas that no shooting could be safe, you might suggest a well trained rat-terrior as a cityhall mascot, in the early spring he would run the geese off the lawn before they nest, and again they will move on.

No cost to the city, people will donate money to feed/house one of those cute lil fireballs!

Just an idea.

Dear Lisa:

Yeah. Who likes PETA anyway? Not mainstream democrats. (PETA - Middle class white women and spoiled brat college students with too much time their hands united) but I reject the whole democrat conflict thing over Peta. Isn’t the GOP the party of the big tent? Tell me there are no wackos in the corner of the tent. Both parties have their unattractive supporters.

Eliot,

There may be some “whackos” in the far corners of the Rep.’s tent, but thankfully PETA isn’t one of them, that would cost too many votes, just as it has for the Dem. party.

A real good show about PETA and its ilk was done by Penn & Teller’s Bullshit!
It has been researched and is a very informative 30 minute piece.

As of right now, there are 86 posts concerning this terrorist group and its dumbass members and its been pretty interesting to read.
But come on people, no matter what you say or do, they really are only animals, not people.