Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

Sure, Eric, I always good for a few thoughts. First, about your comment: “No, Newsweek was hot to print every detail it could about how we mistreat and violate the rights of unlawful combatants, whether it was all true and verifiable or not.”

There has been a lot of coverage of our successes and failures, most recently the rout of 125 insurgents near the Syrian border. Got a lot of play, and almost all positive in the press.

Which begs the question, why does such negative news get your dander up? Are you opposed to the Free Press which is so integral to our democracy? We as Americans should be getting all the news, good and bad. When the Commander in Chief and his staff say we won’t abide the Geneva Conventions with regard to any we capture and designate suspected terrorist, and torture is perpetrated by our troops, that is NEWS, my friend. Orders come down from on high, and having been a Sgt. in the Army, I can tell you, I don’t believe that many of our trained troops committed that many acts of torture in our POW facilities without orders from on high.

Oh, and please, let’s dispel with your statistic of x number of offenders out of the total force in Iraq. That is pure misdirection. The proper statistic is x number of offenders out of the number of personnel on duty in those prison facilities. The ratio is far more dramatic and meaningful, since soldiers in the field would not have the same orders as those in the detention facilities: afterall, too much press around outside the detention facilities.

So you are opposed to a free press? Hmmm… makes one wonder about the right’s definition of American democracy.

The US lost the War on Terror when not a single man, woman or child from England to Timbuktu believes what BushCo says…

Guantanamo - Universal Reports of Torture from those released. Some of those released were British PROVEN to be innocent, btw…

Abu Graib - Enough said… Again mostly innocent.

Extraordinary Rendition - Nice of you to let SYRIA do the Torture… AGAIN mostly innocent.

Afghanistan - Nothing like posing with a corpse with its head bashed in…

Did Newsweek do any of this? No.

So you are opposed to a free press? Hmmm

What free press, it cost lives for that story. Life’s you seem to be willing to give away without thought, all in the quest for a free press. I would love to see a free press, one with out sides, one with just the facts and not what who ever is reporting feels is right, or wants to be right no matter what the truth is. I do not trust any of Americas press any more than I do the DNC, and the DNC only wants a free press when it’s to there advantage. Sorry there is one big difference between Propaganda and Free Press. Sway the vote and sway it your way, either that or disclaim it as right wing and useless.

Oh, and please, let’s dispel with your statistic of x number of offenders out of the total force in Iraq. That is pure misdirection. The proper statistic is x number of offenders out of the number of personnel on duty in those prison facilities.

Just insert your own numbers to get the results you want. Old DNC trick, discount all those who you do not need, after all there opinion does not matter. The proper Statistic is the one that proves your point, but lets put it another way. The DNC lost the last election and the one before that, yet they can not even comprehend that let alone admit it. Too much press around for them to admit the truth. That is pure misdirection.

The ratio is far more dramatic and meaningful, since soldiers in the field would not have the same orders as those in the detention facilities: after all, too much press around outside the detention facilities.

Sounds good let’s apply it to another issue. Why should the DNC want a recall of the state of Florida, when all they really need to do is recount the ones that are to there best advantage and to heck with the rest of the state, there vote matters not to the DNC.

Numbers, what they really mean. They can be used to prove anything true or false. In this case they mean 15 people died for your free press.

Which begs the question, why does such negative news get your dander up?

It’s not the negative news that gets my dander up. It’s untrue and unfounded news without regard for the outcome. I sure feel that who ever the person was doing the story, well they should be held for manslaughter. I would go with murder, but not even I believe they did it with intent to get someone killed. Though that is a motive for murder, fake a story, or just add a little to one and you’ve got another story to sell your news or up your friends vote count. A country with a truly free press and not a bunch of goof ups who are willing to do anything for the big Story full of inconsistencies. A Press who takes responsibility for what they do. Getting people killed for a story is real poor free press.

… Makes one wonder about the right’s definition of American democracy.

Well first off it is the Republic of America and we practices a form of Democracy, not a complete democracy, but a darn fine working one. It would work even better if the Democrats were a whole lot closer to the center. You see the left was in power for so long that they dragged the center from where it belongs to about 75 feet off center. It would be a country with a Democratic Party that did not think it had all the right ideals for everything. A Demo party that really did something to better the entire country and not just for its own gains. A definition Pretty Much the same as the lefts.

P/S
Good night to all and best of luck. My bark is a lot worse than my bight. As a matter of fact my bight is real soft, don’t have many teeth remaining, some left leaning person kicked them out yesterday on another issue on this Blog, Flog, Slog or what ever makes your boat float.

Free press? Absolutely.

However, in this case, Newsweek has now admitted that their original report was not true… the report that led to all this rioting.

My question is, shouldn’t a press that is “free” also exercise a certain degree of responsibility to make sure a story is true?

This story was based one one statement by one confidential source, who said the incident would soon be released in an investigative report. No verification necessary, right?

The thing about this incident that really bothers me is that Newsweek was so intent on getting new information to the public (probably a big issue with most media these days), that they felt it was not necessary to wait a little longer for the actual report.

Sure, report the good news. Report the bad news. But report it when it is actually news, or at least get verification from a second source.

The US lost the War on Terror when not a single man, woman or child from England to Timbuktu believes what BushCo says…

Strange, at least one person believed them, and yet you call that one a liar and say they don’t. Does that make you a Loser or a Liar, no just confused about whose side you are on, besides your own side?

We could lose the war due to your type of attitude. It seems to matter not to you if we win or lose as long as you can have your fun with Bush, after all you may be willing to beg and convert you religion or beg for another shipment of oil. And if we do lose the war, you will know it, they do not want to come here and ask you to dance, kill the suckers over there. That was good enough for Wilson, FDR, Truman, JFK and Johnson, (Billy C just did not get it right) its good enough for me over here on the Right of center, that’s where the center should be anyway.

Don’t worry, If I ever run for office it will be as a Democrate.

Paw Paw, give it a break. Are you saying that if a Muslim shits on the Bible and a Christian turns around and shoots him in the head as a result, that that Christian’s behavior is justified and legal and moral?

Give it a break. The story, right or wrong in its facts, is no justification for murder, civil disorder, or troops shooting into demonstrating crowds.

G you are right of course. The free press is obligated to get the news right to the best of their ability. Newsweek was wrong, they recognize it, have apologized for any portions of that story that were not factually correct. But, to blame the deaths in another country on a misreporting of a piece of information in an American publication story, is a huge, huge reach to establish cause and effect.

Fact is, anti-US Afghans used the story in conjunction with a number of other items such as the economy, to rally demonstrations.

Newsweek screwed up. They needed to put forward that kind of charge only with greater proof on hand. But their job is not to fulfill some stereotype of Islam. It’s to be accurate. If that means reporting the barbarism of radical Islamists, so be it. If that means reporting, on good evidence, that our people are flushing the Quran down the toilet or torturing prisoners, so be it. This time, though, they were short on the facts, and therefore shouldn’t have reported what they did.

The Republicans put too much emphasis on political alignment. But we all get screwed if our press doesn’t maintain its check on the screw-ups and scandals of our government. If Bush doesn’t want negative stories, he should lead more competently, more honestly, and more humbly.

Newsweek screwed up. Bad intelligence. Let’s hold everyone who takes serious actions based on bad intelligence responsible.

How exactly did those that started the riot manage to turn it into the explosive scene that it was?
Someone read Newsweek.
Who?
Do the terrorists have people reading everything that is printed in the U.S. searching for words like the ones found in this particular article?
Why?
From what I can tell most of the people who write in this blog do not take one article in one publication as the gospel.
So.. how is it possible that such riots can begin and spread throughout a whole region of the world based on a few words in one article?

I feel the same way they felt about their Quran when I see our flag being burned. I’m sure a lot of us do BUT I don’t see riots in the streets where people die because of it.
I don’t think anyone is asking for the end to Freedom of the Press.
With Freedom comes Responsibility.
If someone is going to print that the Quran is being flushed down a toilet they damn well better be sure it is true.
I seem to recall a discussion about the reaction to Abu Grab being blasted all over the world for days- you’d think Newsweek would have known better.
Didn’t the ‘anonymous’ source say he isn’t sure where he saw the Quran being flushed?? Now that his statement has caused riots and death?? Maybe it was in a Muslim families house.
Why is it we are not shown the footage of beheadings? Too sick to look at? or because we are being pacified by not seeing the truth?

BTW … how far has this incident set us back? and are there any Muslim leaders calming the masses with the Newsweek apology?
Do any of those that rioted feel like idiots because they believed the story to begin with? I doubt it.

Stephen D.
You are so correct, if Bush doesn’t want any negative stories he should lead more competently, more honestly and more humbly. Sen Robert Byrd in his book, “LOSING AMERICA, CONFRONTING A RECKLESS AND ARROGANT PRESIDENCY”,states that on 09-11-01 “For me, that conversation began a day which would turn the of nation upside down and transform a lackluster, inarticulate, visionless president into a national and international leader, nearly unquestioned by the media or by members of either party. That day would spur the United States Congress to hand over, for the foreseeable future, its constitutional power to declare war.”

What a difference almost 4 years have become. We still have a lackluster, inarticulate, visionless leader. He is now bitting the hands that elected him. The poor and middle income voters elected him and he still panders to the “haves and have mores.” Oh yes, he still pays homage to the ultra right leaders of the”churches of ‘I Hate You,’” while the rest of the country gets screwed.

When you have a leader that only has people advising his who agree with everything he believes you have a non thinking leader. Gee Duba is acting like the spoiled child of wealth whos father has bailed him out of every problem he has ever had. Well Daddy’s money nor his friends can bail this President out of where he is trying to take our country.

The ultra conservatives have been against Social Security. Why? Because they can’t make any money on it. Bring on private accounts. They have been against the United Nations, bring on John Bolton.

Just “THINK BLUE 11/04/08.”

“A country with a truly free press and not a bunch of goof ups who are willing to do anything for the big Story full of inconsistencies. A Press who takes responsibility for what they do. Getting people killed for a story is real poor free press.”

The “free press”, vital as it is, has one major flaw that causes this sort of thing. As much as we like to hold news corporations up as protectors of freedom, champions against corrupt government, they’re really nothing more than corporations out to earn a buck.

Why did Newsweek push this story without verifying it? Because their customers want sensational news, and they want it NOW! Good news, bad news, whatever — if the story doesn’t sell, it doesn’t matter.

That’s my biggest problem with those who complain about the “liberal news media”. If the news media is left-of-center, that’s probably because the news audience is, for the most part, left-of-center. They make the most profit when they appeal to the most people, and right-of-center news doesn’t seem to do that. Fox News does ok, but they’re in a niche market.

How big a toilet would it have to be for a book that size to fit down the tube? Newsweek might have asked a disconfirming question and saved everyone a lot of trouble.

Well, Jack, I’ve got a response to your question, and I’m afraid it makes things worse. You could fit the Quran down the toilet, regardless of its size, if you tore it apart and took your time flushing it down.

The question they should have asked is “could you give us any evidence or any people to talk to to confirm this actually happened?”

Free press is only free to the preparer. Consumers pay a price. The sad thing about this situation is that the consumer’s only rights are whether or not to believe what is written or broadcast. We can of course choose to shut our eyes and ears to what the media is peddling and, we can even write to the editor on a specific article.
Wars are fought in the press, elections are incredibly impacted by the media, trials are won or lost in the press, peoples lives are sometimes ruined by the press and other forms of media, individual financial positions are impacted by the press, etc. Then even after the press exercises it’s freedom to print its view/report, it has the additional freedom to decline to reveal the source. A person victimized then loses a right, the right to face his accuser.

In Newsweek’s defense, there have been a number of other reports of similar Koran-down-the-toilet incidents (some links are in http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/5/15/211444/985)
Also there have been reports of food rations in toilets, sexual humiliation, making prisoners eat pork, etc.

And, Newsweek passed the report by a military source, who took issue with some parts of the story, but not the Koran-desecration part.

There wasn’t much new in this story, really, and no particular reason to expect that it would be the spark to ignite riots. If there’s blame, we should all share it, for not rioting (figuratively at least) here in the US about the many well-reported stories of prisoner abuse and humiliation.

Stephen

You would have to flush dozens of time and I don’t believe the cover would go down at all.

I think some people were too quick to believe it. One annoying thing some people do it use the conditional IF TRUE and then go on to jump to very dire conclusions. By the time the IF TRUE is proven NOT TRUE, the consequences have stuck.

One short take on the prisoners. These are not prisoners of war in the sense we remember from Stalag 17 or Hogan’s Heroes. They are not representative of any particular army or state. They were captured out of uniform and often behind our lines.

It would be better for them not to be treated as they would have been in WWII, when an out of uniform fighter behind the lines would be shot right there. As for being a POW status, POWs can be held for the duration of the conflict.

The better analogy for these prisoners is with Nazi officers and officials after WWII. I don’t know enough about the details of their treatment to comment on whether this generation is getting better treatment or not. I do recall that several of the Nazi officials were executed.

With the apology that the desecration of the Qaran was incorrect is no news report sacred. Must we now wonder if the desecration of the panties story is true, the dog collars and leashes? What next.

I didn’t think they meant the book was being flushed. I thought they meant the pages were being used in a “sanitary capacity” I.e. buttwipe paper. But that desn’t really matter.

In the end, Islamic religious zealots were just waiting for an excuse and any excuse would have done. Just say “Schiavo”, “gay marriage” or “pro-Choice” and see what happens…

Oh, come on, folks. The horror here is not that Newsweek quoted a source that even their own vetting department considered “unreliable”…or that “freedom” of the press is at stake. The horror is that Newsweek used the CBS method of vetting their source (notice I didn’t say “sources”?) and people who respect and treasure their religion are dead because of it. Yes, dead. As in not breathing any more. As in someone’s son or daughter is the newest addition to a compost heap. All because they, like CBS, wanted to rush a story to press to scoop the other media.

Now, Newsweek thinks that a “Gee…we screwed up” statement will make it all better. They think that issuing an apology will bring those people back to life and smooth everything over and everything will be hunky dorey.

Newsweek printed something carelessly and without reguard to the consequences…and now people are dead…murdered…because of Newsweek’s laziness and inattention to detail (like trying to make sure the story was actually true or not).

Newsweek printed something totally not true and now people are dead. Isn’t that a crime? Is lying that results in loss of life against the law? Is printing something completely and wholly untrue that results in murder covered under “freedom of the press”? Where are the cops when you need them?

David,

A free press is essential to the functioning of democracy.

It’s not even the fact that the mainstream press is predominantly liberal that bothers me, it’s the fact that they won’t admit it. It is that central dishonesty that requires a response.

My main point about these events are not so much that Newsweek faltered, and they did, but that the focus is entirely on how bad we are to the exclusion of all else.

I don’t blame Newsweek for the riots. I blame Newsweek for giving the enemy moral support.

The conclusion the left wants to draw is that we are no better than the terrorists. I’m sorry, but I read one of the Newsweek articles about the ‘torture’ at Guantanamo and I think we’ve lowered the bar on torture for us and raised it for Islamic extremists.

And I will reiterate that to be Muslim does not mean you are a terrorist. Just as the KKK were not true christians, Al Qaeda are not true Muslims.

Jack,

Were the “captured” found to be doing bad things, or just rounded up like cattle from an area in which bad guys were suspected to be hiding? I believe it is the latter, from all reports I’ve read. Do you have some other information that I’m not privy to?

Just to be completely novel, for this thread, let me substantiate one of the claims I made above - that the government had a chance to react and/or correct the story, and didn’t:

Newsweek’s Whitaker said that when the magazine first heard of the Koran allegation from its source, staff approached two Defense Department officials. One declined to comment, while the other challenged a different aspect of the May 9 story but did not dispute the Koran charge.

The magazine said other news organizations had already aired charges of Koran desecration based “only on the testimony of detainees.” [Reuters]

Also, Jack’s question: “How big a toilet would it have to be for a book that size to fit down the tube?” Suggests the whole claim is ridiculous. I think I could tear up a Gideon’s bible and flush it, Jack. Some of the other reports of desecration talk about Koran copies being “thrown in the buckets used for the toilets”, which is certainly physically possible, even for a large book.

“The right” [see above] has claimed, without any real support, that this story is politically motivated, that Newsweek was lazy, that Newsweek was irresponsible, that all the media is liberally biased, and that “the left” [unnamed sources?] wants us to believe that we are “no better than terrorists”.

I don’t know about “the left”. Personally, I don’t believe that we’re mearly as bad than al Qaeda - but, really, aren’t we trying to be a little better than that? The riots show that we’ve fallen so far in the eyes of the world that this story, true or false, is viewed as believable - and is viewed as part of US policy, not acts of a “few bad apples”. And that sad fact cannot be laid at the feet of one mistaken Newsweek article.

We are dealing with people who haven’t progressed as a society in 2000 years and we are surprised by their actions when someone flushes a book?! Am I alone here in looking at these people in disgust? I see no riots resulting from beheading, but lives are lost when someone damages a book. These people make Hitlers Germany look sane.

Eric,

Newsweek screwed up (Qaran Story) : get over it and back them in the future with blind faith. Many people died because of it.

George screwed up (Iraq WMD Story) : get over it and back him in the future with blind faith. Many people died because of it.

Seems we have a double standard on the right. Please try to live up to the high expectations you give the left.

Perhaps, just perhaps, if we, as a nation, would come to grips that we are engaged in a 21st century war, not the traditional warfare of the past, more Americans and more around the world would see progress has been, is and will be made in the War on Terror. This is NOT a war that will be ended by the signing of a peace treaty with some nations, ala Japan, Germany and Italy in WWII. Instead, the sooner we all realize progress will be made in feet and yards, not miles (or meters), the better.

While I may disagree with some things which have been said and done by the US administration and the defense department, I do whole heartedly support the idea that it is better to take the fight to the enemies’ home turf than allow for another attack here, be it in NY, Chicago, LA or any other major population area. More than anything, I feel it was complacency on our part, America’s part, that allowed for 9/11 to happen. I do not blame Mr. Clinton, or any of his predecessors, and I sure to not blame President Bush. What I DO fault is the complacency on the part of the intelligence departments, AKA FBI and CIA, in likely thinking nothing had happened in “recent” times, thus the lack of urgency in following more closely Al Qaeda’s movements.

Is the war currently being waged being won? In small steps, Yes! As of May 16th, Kuwait now has agreed to allow the women of that nation to participate in elections and parliamentary procedures, beginning in 2007. In Egypt, Hosni Mubarrak had agreed to a new law, recently passed, allowing for multiple candidates to be featured on presidential and parliamentary ballots.

Just as, if not more,important,is the recent election held in Iraq of an interim parliament, where, in spite of threats by the “insurgent” terrorists of physical harm, thousands upon thousands turned out to participate at the polling places while the terrorist thugs whimpered off to lick their wounds.

Citizens or Jordan, Lebanon and even Syria are now sensing the winds of change and seeking to bring into existence goverments of the PEOPLE as we have, not of the elite, of the dictators, ala Suddam Hussein.

As with anyone with any conscious and feelings at all, I feel badly that we have lost many good men and women in the efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq. I do NOT feel their effort has been in vain, period.

Freedom is never truly free, it does come with a cost. Our forefathers knew this when they went head to head with the British empire and their German ally, the Hessians, during the Revolutionary War. Unbelievable as it may be today, given the chilled relations recently, France served as an ally to America, thankfully, and in the end, the colonies’ freedom and sovreignty led to what is still the leading example of how a free nation exists, the USA.

Isn’t it time to put the petty bickering about aside, about our philosophical differences with Muslim and Islamic teaching, re-focus on the effort to help those starving for freedom to acheive such, then resolve among ourselves to make our nation, as President Reagan frequently said, “A shining city, set on a hill”.

May the good Lord look constantly over our men and women in the efforts for freedom, and may he bless us, as a country, with the patience and common sense to continue to be the beacon of freedom.

Wimp

I don’t have information you don’t. But logically, you wouldn’t spend all that money to bring radom people all the way from Afghanistan to Cuba. No matter what you think of the military’s reasons for doing things, they don’t like to spend their money and time on things they don’t consider useful.

William

Reports are not proof, as Newweek has shown us. These reports orginiate from people who were enemies of the U.S. and now have even more reason to hold a grudge. They may be telling the truth, but we have no particualar reason to believe it.

Sure we could rip the Bible up, but paper from books will easily clog a toilet. We could find a very small book, but even Gideons Bible would probably edge into the plumbing. There are lots of things we can stipulate. But eventually all the caveats make you wonder about the original statement.

In support of Eric

Moral equivalency has been a dilemma for a long time. We used to have the problem of comparison between the U.S. and the Soviet Union. Now we have the U.S. and terrorists.

In its non-political personal variety, it stems from a noble source. He who is without sin should throw the first stone and none of us are without sin. The tricky part is that it should be applied introspectively. It can and is used as an offensive weapon by deceitful personalities, who say something like, “sure I stole $100k, but I know you occasionally take pencils home from the office, so you can’t judge me”. In politics it is pernicious. Since politics is the choice among sometime unattractive alternatives, everyone is wrong. So we come to distasteful comparisons.

There are about 300 credible assertions of abuse of U.S. prisoners and about 70 confirmed incidents. That is a lot, but if you consider the circumstance and the hundreds of thousands of people involved, it looks different. There is no comparison or equivalency between the U.S. and the terrorists.

For one thing, the U.S. maintains a 100% head to body ratio among its prisoners. Our opponents do not and while pictures of prisoners being humiliated is disturbing, those of terrorists holding down and cutting off the heads of their prisoners is a quantum leap worse. Beyond all that, the U.S. punishes those of its own who carry out such acts. The only criticism might be that we are not complete or quick enough.

Our opponents not only accept atrocities at their very highest levels, atrocities are the whole reason these organizations are in business. I don’t imagine Zarqawi will punish any of his followers for being too sadistic (maybe for not being sadistic enough).

Oh, bad, bad Newsweek. They said somebody flushed a Quran down a toilet, and look at what happened. By the way, let’s not fret over the details about how a book may or may not go down a toilet. The result is the same: some crazy Afghan read about it in his fresh copy of newsweek, jumped up on a picnic table, shouted “Death to the infidels!”, and set our flag on fire. Somehow, a riot ensued.

So I ask: Where are these nuts getting all those American flags - not to mention fresh copies of Newsweek magizine that seem to be more believable than ours?

And Newsweek apologizes … so predictable. Afterall, this is the American culture - the one which blames Rockstar games for our poor breeding practises. The shame. I don’t blame Newsweek, not even if (or when) they told a lie every single day. I blame the Idiots who react to a column of words as if they just got their weiners slammed in a window.

And blame Bush while we’re at it. We were attacked by Saudi Arabia and Bush invades Afghanistan and then Iraq … In the name of spreading freedom! What a gas. Granting freedom to Afghanistan and Iraq is like furnishing a porcupine’s house with inflatable chairs. They’re gonna blame us when they fall on the floor, not the fact that they have needles for asses. And they’d be right.

No, we’re not going to lose the war on terror because of things like this, we’re going to lose the war on terror because we decided to declare war on a noun. Don’t forget, we’re are still losing the other war on a noun, but don’t mention that to the DEA or they’ll come and raid your house for more tax money.

Jack

You put an awful lot of faith that the “military” acts in a predictable and rational manner. They didn’t go after Osama in Afghanistan when they said they knew where he was, and they have admitted that many of the Abu Ghraib detainees were there by mistake. I can easily imagine the civilian leadership asking the military to round up all “suspected” Taliban and Al Qaeda members to make it seem like big progress was being made. They admit that many were mistakenly identified by informants, which in a war-torn country can’t be a reliable way of identifying non-military combatants. I have a little less faith than you that most these detainees really deserved to be there. I think they used a very fine net and hoped to come up with a handful of important people, but didn’t.

Why don’t we quit arguing about people acting like animals because they’re offended.

There’s no excuse. Who cares if the Koran got flushed down the toilet? How exactly were they injured by the incident? (hint: it made them feel bad)

I’m so tired of the left’s relentless pursuit of ways to avoid responsibility. Every action is justified if you can just find the right thing to be offended about. Then you can shift the responsibility to whoever made you feel bad. It’s not my fault I (fill in some reprehensible action) he called me (fill in politically incorrect term).

You are the master of the way you feel. I know this is a shocker. If you decide not to be offended, you won’t be. That is the difference between mature, civilized people and animals.

Let’s stop making excuses and expect people to take responsibility for their actions.

I like Pat’s end statement “Let’s stop making excuses and expect people to take responsibility for their actions”

Will she be willing to apply that to Rumsfield for gross incompetence in post-war (non-)planning?

Will she be willing to apply that to Bush43 for starting a war on false pretense?

Will she be willing to apply that to Bush43 for tax cuts that he said “would go to those on the bottom” but really went to those on the top?

Will she be willing to apply that to Bush43 for justifying torture?

Will she be willing to accept Americans who burn the American flag as protest or will she rant to have them arrested (not beheading but we are “civilized”, aren’t we?) ?

Wow. In the same thread, we have one person on the “right” blaming people’s deaths on a news story created by the “left”, and another person attacking the “left” for blaming those deaths on the news story. I wish the “right” would make up its mind. :-)

The point is that maybe this isn’t about left vs. right. Maybe it’s about irresponsible journalism vs. religous extremism. Newsweek did something wrong. In reply, the afghans did something much, much wronger. It’s not Bush’s fault, or Clinton’s or Kennedy’s or Kerry’s or Reagan’s. There’s plenty of stuff out there to attack both parties on… this just ain’t it.

Dear Noos Weak,

What are you boys up to over there? Don’t ya’ll know how to just keep your mouth shut when you do something stupid like get a lot of U.S. soliders killed based on lousy information? Heck, boys, you oughta never fess up to nothing. Just say “Boy, did I screw up or what?” to your own self and then blame it on the unpatriotism of libs somehow. Or maybe British intelligence. Say, hey, we all got it wrong together, boys. No sweat. It’s all good for the democratic goodness pushing for freedom to salute basic American decency in the world’s greatest minute of needfulness.

Yours truly,

George W.

No problem.

Everybody take responsiblity.

I saw the same intel you did and I agree with the war.

I’d say we’re doing fine, kudos to Rumsfeld.

By the way, I got $2000 last year for my kids. I only made 49K. I wouldn’t say I’m at the top and I see that tax credit as a big plus for the bottom as you call it.

I don’t know about justified torture. Did you get access to an internal memo or something? The only people making those accusations are the ones in the media searching for anything to discredit the president they didn’t want. Where was that vigor when Clinton desecrated the oval office?

And since you liked my last statement best. How about calling for Clinton’s removal from office and jail time for perjury. Or is responsiblity only expected of the right? The media made excuse after excuse for Clinton because it was a “sex thing” and everybody does it. I’ve been married for eight years and never cheated so I guess everybody doesn’t.

Pat,

Thats one of my big problems with the right currently. They cannot keep there own house in order but they are morally outraged at Clinton for his “sex thing” but seem to be morally ok with Bush’s “Iraq thing”.

Just a note, nobody died because Clinton had sex with his secretary.

The constant right-wing accusation of “liberal bias” in the press ignores the facts. The fact is that although most reporters are liberals, they aren’t the ones who control the final content of the news. That’s the job of editors and (in the print media) publishers - and editors and publishers are overwhelmingly Republican.

Furthermore, if you listen closely, you discover that the right isn’t complaining that the press is biased. If that was the case, you’d be hearing more about Faux News. No, the right is complaining that the press isn’t biased in their favor. That’s an entirely different complaint, and it reveals how paranoid the radical right has become.

Is anyone but me old enough to remember Edridge Cleaver and other left-wing radicals from the 60’s? One of their paranoid sayings was that “you’re either part of the solution or you’re part of the problem.”

Now the radical right is saying the same thing. President Bush himself said “you’re either with us or you’re with the terrorists.” If the press isn’t with them, then the press must be against them. Anyone who doesn’t side with the radical right is therefore siding with the enemy.

God save us from paranoid ideologues - of either side.

Trust in the morality and truthfilness at the hyighest level died due to Clinton’s sexcapades.

Pat,

Where was that vigor when Clinton desecrated the oval office?

Uh… all over the news… for like a year… were you not conscious during that time period?

Or is responsiblity only expected of the right?

No, both sides of the two party system always hound the other. Both sides are always expected to be accountable for most of what they do by at least some of the people.

The media made excuse after excuse for Clinton because it was a “sex thing” and everybody does it.

You have to be kidding me… Unless you think Clinton’s sex life somehow clouded his judgement in running the nation, it doesn’t matter what he did behind closed doors. The only reason this story ever stayed alive for such a long time is because our country loves a good sex scandal, not because it had any actual importance.

Steve,

Really, thats interesting. If the right would spend half the amount of energy trying to win the “war on terror” or balancing the budget or reducing outsourcing as they do on legislating the bedroom, We may have a fighting chance at a better future in this country.

Do you think China cares who the president is sleeping with or if a couple of dudes are kissing.

Please, we have more important issues in this country.

I’m fascinated at the level of rancor in this thread. I have wanted to jump in a number of times and say “Are you hearing what you are saying? Are you listening to yourself?”

The moral equivalencies being thrown about are so ridiculous as to be completly worthless, except to try to incite a reaction.

And we blame congress for partisanship, heh, go figure. Guess who elected them.

Take a moment and look back at this thread and tell me how many posts are actually looking for truth, and how many are just antagonistic crap.

Congress is a mirror for the electorate…and this thread is a prime example.

I’m tired of being labeled radical right. Why is it that only the left is allowed to be in the center.

I advocate individual freedom and the government keeping out of my business. The only thing the government is good at is providing for the national defense. What about that is radical?

And by the way Reed, China doesn’t care if Clinton is having sex in the oval office. Frankly, I don’t care either, but I do care if he lies about it under oath. He broke the law that he is expected to uphold. And the left makes excuses for him by saying it was just sex.

It wasn’t just sex. It was lying to a grand jury and the congress. What did John Bolton, or any of the judges nominated by Bush do? They were mean to people? I’ll take mean over criminal any day.

Pat,

The right shouldn’t have spent 175 million investigating Clinton’s sexcapades in the first place. I personally didn’t care either. I would like to have some of that money back. The right was so morally outraged that they impeached him. Bush “grievously misled” us about WMD’s in Iraq and 1600+ American Soldiers are now dead. Back were I live “grievously misled” is called lying. My point is that the people investigating Clinton were hippocrates of the highest magnitude. Larry Flynt (who is no hero of mine) pointed that out quite persuasively.

Oh, by the way your man Bolton is accused of Anally raping his wife. Any thoughts on that one?

I apologize for getting nasty but the flame throwing and mudslinging can definitely come from both sides of the aisle.

Chi Chi,

You are absolutely correct in your assertation. If everyone in America were more like Jack and Stephen there would definitely more decent public discourse. But the country is definitely divided and the people in power are attempting to retain that power at whatever cost and the minority is trying to gain some of that power back at whatever cost.

Remember John Kerry was called a weakling for not standing up for himself. With the blatant flame in the original post from the right, what did you expect.

Pat,

I advocate … the government keeping out of my business.

But apparently you think it was OK for a Grand Jury to ask President Clinton about his sex life. No offense intended, but that sounds awfully like a double standard.

Jack- I think if you’re down to the cover with the Quran, I think you’re long past the point where the cover is important!

Regardless, we should be damn sure we don’t have idiots out there doing something that inflammatory, and if they are, we should take disciplinary action to make sure they don’t repeat the mistake. We can’t expect the rest of the world to calculate our behavior with the same kind of equivalence that we do. I don’t want to get up to heaven, and have God ask me “why did you do something this stupid”, and my only answer be “well it wasn’t as bad as this other fellow” Either it’s wrong, or it’s not.

I think while desecrating such a holy book may succeed in shaking a prisoner enough to get information from him, the price we pay in terms of our own moral character and our reputation for tolerance as a nation is too steep.

We have got to stop using the terrorists as our yardstick for our behavior. We should be pure of their moral influence, countering their vicious expedience, with our principled stands. We have got to cast ourselves as the good guys, and manuever these bastards into playing the villains. This is about more than defeating terrorists, but also the mythology that supports them as well.

Stephen

I would agree that destroying the Koran would be unacceptable.

But what we are forgetting is that the U.S. DID NOT do that. As I write there is an article re on the Newshour. Nobody believes the story anymore. Newsweek is in damage control mode.

So we are not even comparing U.S. behavior against the much worse behavior by others. We are talking about something we didn’t even do.

The people who perpetrated this mistake are at Newsweek. The victims are the U.S. and those people killed in riots.

Re: the people being held in Guantanamo Bay prison.
The President took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the U. S. when he took office. In violation of the Bill of Rights, these people are being held without trial for an indefinate period. Part of the administration’s excuse for this is the fiction that Guantanemo is not American territory. Some people think that the Constitution only applies to American citizens, if they would read it they’d find it doesn’t refer to citizens but to “persons” so these “persons” are being held in violation of the Constitution and the President is in violation of his oath of office. Isn’t that an impeachable offence?

But what we are forgetting is that the U.S. DID NOT do that.

Actually, we’ve got to hope the U.S. did not do it. What we know is that Newsweek did sloppy reporting and that it can’t prove the allegation of “Koran abuse.” Therefore, it shouldn’t have made that allegation. But the stories of such abuse not just based on this one news story, as others have pointed out. For example, way back on March 26, 2003, Knight Ridder reported, “Eighteen Afghan men were freed Tuesday from the Guantanamo camp. They told reporters they were generally well fed and given medical care, but housed in cramped cells and sometimes shackled, hit and humiliated. Some flashed medical records showing extensive care by American military doctors, while others complained that American soldiers insulted Islam by sitting on the Koran or dumping their sacred text into a toilet.”

As fair-minded people who’ve seen the Abu Ghraib pictures, we’ve got to remain open to the possibility that such things have happened. But I think everybody but the true wackos hope this allegation is a lie told by Taliban propagandists.

Reed
You’re over the top.
All of you concerning WMD’S
In the very near future evidence will be supplied to show a path the WMD’S took and where they are. Then give me a call so I can send you some bacon or ham to go with that egg on your face.

mmmmm bacon. I do like bacon with my eggs. Sounds like you have some privileged information that American is not privy to. Can’t wait to read it. I desperately want to be wrong about this so I can have the tiniest bit of faith in our president, albeit not blind faith.

Tom-
Okay, when the evidence you speak of arises, we’ll believe you. Until then, the simpler, more provable explanation holds, as inconvenient as it is to supporters of Bush’s foreign policy.

Reed

I will wait until there is some credible evidence to deplore what happened. Newsweek made allegation which it has withdrawn for lack of evidence. You can’t just accuse someone and then say there are accusations. What if someone accused you of theft on July 19, 1998. How likely is it that you could prove your innocence.

Pat,

“What did John Bolton, or any of the judges nominated by Bush do? They were mean to people? I’ll take mean over criminal any day.”

You’re still avoiding the question, what does that have to do with the way the country is run? The only reason Clinton was impeached was because the Republicans wanted to nail him for something, so they got him to lie under oath. Even to them it wasn’t about the crime, it was about the opportunity to get him out of office (or, at the very least, to disgrace him). If you buy into the crap that it actually meant something, well… I won’t comment on just how stupid that is.

But back to the present (and more relevant debates), is Bush’s “moral clarity” actually doing jack for the war on terror? I submit that it does not. Like I said before, what we need right now is a cohesive plan, not a Bible.

Reed:

Show a path the WMDs took? That a joke? The White House itself already admitted Iraq had no WMD. WMD is dead. We are now Spreading Freedom in Iraq.

Kindly stay updated to the Right Propaganda.

There may have been weapons of mass destruction. There may have actually been parts of the Quran flushed down a toilet. There may be terrorist within our boarders right now.

It’s amazing that everyone passes judgement so quickly. I heard a conservative editorial the other day that said something like, there hasn’t been a terrorist attack since 911…so, we’re doing something right.

PLEASE PEOPLE!

I don’t like GW’s policies and I do feel he misled us into war. Guess what? We’re there…get over it. We’ve got to see this through. Like the man’s policies or not, he made a tough decision. Natually, some agree and some disagree.

As Paul Harvey says a lot, don’t pass judgement until you hear “the rest of the story”. The rest of the story may not come together for months or years. That goes for the Newsweek “mistake” and GW’s “WMD”.

Be Americans first and quit slinging mud at each other. I wouldn’t want my children fighting in Iraq right now because I feel it was an unjust war. However, if my kids were there (like many others are) I would consider them a patriot. I hope this mess leads to a stable democratic government…only time will tell. If it does we can at least justify the cause in some way.

Tom L,

“I hope this mess leads to a stable democratic government…only time will tell. If it does we can at least justify the cause in some way.”

It would really be nice to have those justifications BEFORE the war… Oh well, not like the government has self-restraint anymore…

“However, if my kids were there (like many others are) I would consider them a patriot.”

Just remember, many injustices are going on in our country right now that are in dire need of attention. True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.

Honestly guys, I find most of this ridiculous. There’s no one here to defend.

How DARE Newsweek accuse our soldiers of desecrating the Quran? (when they only put fake menstrual blood across the faces of prisoners, stripped them naked, pretended they were going to electrocute them, made them simulate homosexual acts, beat them bloody, incarcareted the innocent, shot arab journalists in the head, etc.?)

I’m surprised that there wasn’t rioting sooner, and I’m surprised that this was the story they did it over.

Of course, I think that rioting and murdering people for any reason is wrong-headed. So I’d hardly defend these guys for doing so.

Really, I can’t see any side of this argument I’d like to be on. The Gods must be crazy.

Julia

Reed:

“With the blatant flame in the original post from the right, what did you expect.”

I expected exactly what I got. I hoped for something more intelligent.

Frankly, John Kerry is an intellectual weakling IMHO. He deserved worse than he got. GW is finding out that big ideas (good or bad) without a reasonable path of implementation and a long list of allies is just so much crap.

BTW, there is a large group of reasonable people from both sides of the aisle who are quietly, but forcefully, putting together legislation that would solve SS, war funding, privatization, and education, in both the short and long terms.

These people are not getting the press because their solutions are not glamorous enough or steeped in partisanship enough to cause national outrage, nor do they send up the “flame” of antagonism. Check out John McCain’s website. No, he is not Arnold, but he is a pragmatist (truth and fact seeker) that we need. He happens to be Republican, but there is a long list of Dems working with him to form consensus and get these problems solved in the best available manner.

“BTW, there is a large group of reasonable people from both sides of the aisle who are quietly, but forcefully, putting together legislation that would solve SS, war funding, privatization, and education, in both the short and long terms.”

Indeed! NYT had an article recently about Hillary Clinton and Newt Gingrich, of all people, coming together on healthcare reform:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/13/nyregion/13hillary.html

It’s too bad the extreme right and extreme left dominate the primaries — there are a lot of people in the middle worth listening to. The Red-State Dems and the Blue-State GOP are the last, best hope for our nation.

I just hope the 2008 election isn’t another Texas Republican vs. Massachusetts Democrat. Personally, I have my heart set on McCain vs. Bayh, but I know it’ll never happen.

Reed,

You wrote:

“Oh, by the way your man Bolton is accused of Anally raping his wife. Any thoughts on that one?”

Where did you come up with that tid-bit?
Page 4 of newsweek?
Is there a link you can post or a sorce for that?
I’ve been watching the Bolton hearings closely and I’ve never heard anything about that.

I guess that shoots credibility in the butt on the Bolton rape charge. That is so wrong. But the supremes ruled it is legal to sodomize and in the near future the path seems to be that rape will soon be legal. So, if that outlandish charge of Bolton is true, then just look at him as a man ahead of the times.

Excuse the pun, but the innuendo about Bolton is just silly.

A lot of things in the press these days would be just silly if they weren’t so serious - the silly Newsweek article about the Koran, the silly idea that Bush lied about intelligence. I read an article today about a woman who tried to commit fraud by claiming to find a finger in a bowl of chili at Wendy’s. You all have heard the story, but how many of you have heard the truth that it was an attempted shakedown, just a fraud. Accusations are easy and too readily believed.

Some people have made fun of me for too often talking about stock markets. The reason I like this subject is not because I make piles of money in the market (I don’t). What I like about the markets is that people have to put their money where their opinions are. This makes them a little more circumspect. When someone comes with a hot tip, I always ask him how much he has invested. If the answer is none, we know the value of his opinion. If political opinion were a market, most of the pundits would be bankrupt.

Eric,

“Welcome to the War on Terror” ? …. were you in a coma or something? this war has been going on for quite a while pal!

If you are trying to cover up for what’s really happening on the war on terror then I must say that you are doing a lousy job…ofcourse given your tough assignment of covering up for immoral and pathetic fools in the administration I admire your courage to even take up this task.

Now coming on to the topic (that you were avoiding) of the Holy Book…I am not so much into religion (call me an atheist if you will) but I do know that some people will kill/die for religious beliefs. Having said that I think its all in the upbringing…I might not like the Bible/Koran/Other books but my upbringing sure teaches me to leave it alone if I cannot respect it.

For a minute let me think as a Believer…hmmm….whoa!….well ok this is how I see it…mere mortals (guards at G.Bay) have picked up a fight with God himself by flushing the Koran…if I were them/their countrymen I would go to the Church, fall on my knees and BEG Jesus/Mary to do something as my friend now you (the mere mortal) are fighting in the LEAGUES OF EXTRAORDINARY POWERFUL MEN…THE ALMIGHTY’S…

…as for me…well I’ll just stick with my atheism and watch the fun :)

Jack wrote,

“If political opinion were a market, most of the pundits would be bankrupt.”

Don’t the vegas oddsmakers take bets on the outcomes of elections?

408 Moroccan prisoners of war currently held by the Polisario Front in the Western Sahara have been there for more than twenty years, they are currently the longest-serving POWs in the world. According to accounts of the six recently released Moroccan POWs, which are corroborated by Amnesty International, the International Committee of the Red Cross and the Fondation France Libertes, conditions in the refugee camps are beyond horrid. “The POWs had to sleep inside containers, or in trenches they had to dig”, according to a 2003 report from France Libertes. The report found cases in which POWs were burned alive, electrocuted, castrated and beaten to death.

I don’t know if anyone desecrated a Koran or verbally abused any of these Muslims. I also know that there is no sense of outrage anywhere.

Jack,

In response to the Morrocan POWs: “I also know that there is no sense of outrage anywhere.”

That’s because liberals haven’t found a way to blame this situation on Bush. Yet.

It is sinfully easy to loose the war on terror. All we have to do is continue to follow the failed policies of the Bush administration. Its just too bad that so many Americans have been sucessfully hoodwinked by Bush and the Republicans.

Jack,
About no sense of outrage—
Great, we once again proved that we are not yet quite as bad as some of the worst people inthe world. Go us. I’m outraged, by the way.

There is more outrage over what the US does for several reasons.

First, the US is seen as powerful, and often with imperial ambitions, be they cultural or military, in many parts of the world, especially the Middle East. The reason Osama attacked us was becasue he saw us as a threat and an enemy. No one cares how the polisario front behaves becasue the polisario front does not have the capacity to take over pretty much any country in the world. With great power comes great responsibility and scrutiny.

Second, we have more outrage over our potential actions than others because we are involved in what is seen as a religious war. Nothing, not even life, motivates people like religion. The preferred tactic of those who attack us is to kill themselves in the name of religion. Showing animosity towards the fundamental symbols of that religion, or violating it in the ways that we have (naked pyramids, fake menstrual blood, etc) will convince Muslims that we do not respect their religion at the very least, and make it much easier to convince people that we are against it.

Combine worldwide offensive power that we have demonstrated our willingness to use with disdain for deeply-held religious belief and we can be painted as quite a threat. No one believes that the Palisario front in morrocco is going to come, take them over and destroy their religion, but many people in the middle east have good reasons to think that the US just might.

Third, there is more outrage on our behalf becuase we have a constitution that prevents us from holding people without charge. We have a long history of treating prisoners well. We have standards, and are supposed to be the good guys. When we violate those standards, not only are we immoral, we’re hypocrites.

Sorry for the long post. I’m just tired of this argument. I don’t care how bad someone else is, we are AMERICA!

Brian

I agree that America behaves better than most other countries and we should live to a higher standard.

What I have trouble with is the increasing credibility given to accusations that are not true (such as the Koran incident). When we have had incidents, we have investigated and punished the offenders.

Also, if we are to be held to a higher standard, I expect that to be stated. Some people compare the U.S. to Nazis or others. This is not a higher standard.

The selective outrage is also interesting. Do the protestors in the street really nuance their protests? Does it really go though their minds, “The U.S. is behaving amazing well by world standards, but because we hold them to a higher standard, we are protesting them and ignoring the much worse cases that go on every day”.

You can set standard in two counter productive ways. Either you can set the standard so low that nobody can fail. In which case we are all equally bad or good. Or you can set the standard so high that nobody can succeed, in which case we are all equally bad and good. A useful standard differentiates.

The U.S. did not desecrate a Koran. It is specifically against U.S. policy to disrespect a Koran. The Washington Post quotes from a U.S. Army memo to that effect. We have achieved the highest possible standards in this case. If that is not high enough, there is something wrong with the assessor.

About Bolton, I have no source, I heard it on the news and other Blog sites. It was inflammatory and I apologize.

I am very sick and tired of partisanship in this country, maybe with a site like this I am too connected to the pulse. “Ignorance is bliss”. The left demonizes the right and the right demonizes the left. I realize that my inflammatory posts doesn’t help the cause and unite people but both sides are going to have to make concessions for us to move forward.

This post really showed in fine print the political divide in this country. With the current administration and the political punditry out there on both sides of the aisle, I really don’t know how we are going to fix our relationships and move this country forward.

What really needs to happen is for us to concentrate on maintaining our market lead in the global economy - China looms large - and put aside our petty differences on less important social and moral issues. These issues are wedge issues and do nothing put pick political fights and divide us as a nation. Why would the government even want to be involved with smoking and gay rights in the first place.

Jack,

In a country where some still have the supermarket tabloids as their major source of news, is it such a stretch to think that some would find the Newsweek article credible?

News reporting in this country has fallen to the lowest common denomenator. If it doesn’t sell it must not be news, and you can lump all of the major news sources into one sad state, that is, all have a lack of credibility.

News reporting shouldn’t be a competition.
News should be about the truth, not ratings.

NewsWeek is irresponsible, but:

News Stories do not kill people. People kill people.
Religions do not kill people. People kill people.
Guns and weapons do not kill people. People kill people.

Jack:
“Reports are not proof, as Newweek has shown us. These reports orginiate from people who were enemies of the U.S. and now have even more reason to hold a grudge. “

I think there are too many stories being told by too many different prisoners for there NOT to be some truth in it.

“They may be telling the truth, but we have no particualar reason to believe it.”

How many accounts do you feel we’ll need to hear before it will be believable?

William put this up as a url earlier, but I’m going to make it into a link.

| reed wrote:
|
| I am very sick and tired of partisanship in this country, ….
|

Me too. But, that is how politicians and hacks
cleverly seduce voters into the process of
petty, partisan bickering that distracts the
voters from what is actually happening.

That is how politicians distract voters and dupe voters to compromise their morals, and voters get thoroughly confused trying to reconcile their beliefs into their party’s policies.

The final result is:
[X] all sorts of twisted logic and non-sequiturs ; like trying to put a square peg in a round hole;
it doesn’t work very well.
[X] grid-lock, inefficiencies, waste;
[X] compromised morals and values that justify the means by the end;
[X] frustrated, apathetic, disaffected voters;
[X] voters searching for a solution;
[X] increasingly arrogant and abusive government;
[X] government growing out of control; taking much and providing little net benefit to society; like a virus - replicating itself over and over, growing and growing;
[X] perversion of the laws to do the very things they’re supposed to prevent;
[X] legal plunder and perpetuating the myth that we can all live at the expense of everyone else;

It’s amazing how many different problems get so much attention, without the root causes ever being discovered.
It’s amazing how many different problems boil down to the same root cause.
________
Let Us Now Try Liberty:
….And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; ….. — Frederic Bastiat (1850)
________

There’s an easy way to create Incentive, Transparency, and Accountability.
All that is required is that the majority of voters agree on the simple solution.

I agree with you Eric…

Jack,

Do the protestors in the street really nuance their protests? Does it really go though their minds, ?The U.S. is behaving amazing well by world standards, but because we hold them to a higher standard, we are protesting them and ignoring the much worse cases that go on every day?.

I think the answer to that depends on where the protesters are. In the US, we should and do definitely hold ourselves to a higher standard. In other countries, the deciding factor is what is likely to influence them. We are in general more likely to influence any nation on the planet, so we get scrutinized. Most people don’t care about where we rank on the most inhumane list, they care that we have power over them and are desecrating their religion.

What I have trouble with is the increasing credibility given to accusations that are not true (such as the Koran incident). When we have had incidents, we have investigated and punished the offenders.

Increasing credibility is probably given because these things keep happening. When I heard about the Koran/toilet story, I wish I could have said “oh, that’s crazy. We would never do something like that.” But instead what I thought was “here we go again.”

Much like the retractions by the media, our dealing with problems that we have made gets much less coverage than the incidents themselves. I know that we are investigating and punishing people, but no one has actually been punished yet, nor will the punishment be enough to make up for the crime.

I hope we didn’t desecrate a Koran. It was clearly horrible of Newsweek to run that piece.
My problem is that decisions were made that set us up for this. When we violate our own laws and hold people without trial for indefinite amounts of time, we open the way for abuses, and we lose the moral high ground. When we treat prisoners in a cruel or unusual manner, we open the way for abuses, and for people to see what we are capable of.

I just think that the decisions that have been made post 9-11 have set the stage for massive worsening in our fight against terrorists. I can’t think of a single positive thing that could get out of those prisoners at Guantanamo that would offset the harm that the treatment they have recieved has done. I’ve heard so many justifications for the things we’ve done: “It’s not really torture,” “They deserved it anyway,” “the Geneva convention doesn’t cover them”. We can rationalize all we want, but these things are hurting America.

So, how to fix it? We need to be more accountable. We as Americans need to show the rest of the world that we don’t condone this type of thing, and that it is not us who enjoys breaking down people’s relationships with their God to get information out of them. Re-electing the people who allowed all of those things to happen wasn’t a good start, but we can do better, right? :-)

On an official level, we need to stop violating our own principles. We need to stop torturing people, and sending them away to be tortured. We need to avoid the appearance of a cover-up or scapegoating.

CDP,

How do you propose we win the war on terror?

Should we revert to the failed policies of the Clinton administration, that refused to believe that terrorism was even a threat?

Or should we embark upon the Kerry idea of appeasement through negotiations, and then check with the French just to be sure?

I’m not going to defend the policies of the Bush administration, because I don’t like them all, either. But at least Bush is offering a solution; i.e., take the fight to our enemies. I would much rather fight radical Islam in the deserts of Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc., than in the streets of lower Manhatten or Washington, DC.

The democratic party simply refuses to offer a viable solution to this problem; all they can manage to do is criticize, whine, and complain. Talking about terrorism won’t make it go away, nor will handing out flowers and singing Kum-Bah-Yah, nor printing anti-military slander in mass-circulated magazines. Remember,the surest way to encourage an aggressor is to naively wish for peace.

And to all you anti-republicans: being conservative doesn’t mean you’re an ultra-conservative religious extremist. That’s a scare tactic the liberal left has used for years to try and sway moderates to their side of the political spectrum, and it never works, as the last election proved. By the same token, I could call all liberals “vicious baby-killing monsters”, but that would be stupid. Half-wit generalizations don’t work in this day and age, and you would think the liberal “intellectual elitists” would understand that.

A quick note: I do wear my “Liberals: Hard on Fetuses, Soft on Terrorists” shirt quite often. It’s funny.

LimeTime~
I would be interested in one those shirts!!!How funny is that- COMPLETELY!!!!

Adrienne

There you go again. The numbers of accusations don’t make truth. You know the often-quoted statistic that more young people believe in flying saucers than believe they will receive Social Security.

These prisoners were anti-American to begin with and now they have even more reason to hold a grudge. No, I don’t believe them. Their accusations are getting to be standard operating procedure. As I understand, most of the accusers are citizens of western countries who were caught in Afghanistan. How much credence can you put in a guy stupid enough to go to Afghanistan to live with the Taliban? And some of these guys went after the U.S. started to invade the place.

In any case, I will repeat that this story was without merit. It was based on a single anonymous source, who now evidently can’t even recall what he thought.

We can’t say that the evidence was fake, but the story was accurate. THIS KORAN STORY IS A FABRICATION. THE ONLY CONCLUSIONS WE CAN DRAW IS THAT NEWSWEEK WAS GULLIBLE (OR WORSE).

The source, Newsweek and those former prisoners are all Monty Python material. Unfortunately, they are playing a very serious game so it is not funny.

Lime Time,

No offense to you but that sure sounds alot like the propaganda “Your either with us or against us mantra” the White House is propogating. Some us don’t believe Saddam was an imminent threat to the US and we should be using our resources in Afganistan. If you would actually read the blogs instead of some generalization you would see that an alternative plan of action “ROOT OUT OSAMA BIN LADEN” in Afganistan actually does exist among the more liberal side. Afganistan is on the back burner while Iraq burns.

The left feels that the invasion was not prudent, Saddam was not an imminent threat and the occupation has made the middle east region a terrorist harbor , soiled our name on the world stage and seriously jeopardized our mission in Afganistan where the real Al Queda threat exists.

Remember 9-11, yeah Al Queda was responsible not Saddam. In your world though, that makes me a Saddam loyalist I’m sure.

We complain because the Iraq plan was “BAD” from our point of view. If your into bad plans than I will send you my shirt: “Asses of evil” with a picture of GW, Cheney and Rumsfeld on it. That one made me snicker.

LimeTime,

“But at least Bush is offering a solution; i.e., take the fight to our enemies.”

Really? The Iraqis are our enemies? See, I was under the impression that we were losing the war on terror because our enemy is not a defined nation or country. Psht! Shows how much I know, eh?

“I would much rather fight radical Islam in the deserts of Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc., than in the streets of lower Manhatten or Washington, DC.”

See, the assumption here is that you know what you are doing… when in fact you don’t. Most Americans probably couldn’t tell an al-Qaeda member from a conservative Muslim, which is exactly why we CAN’T take the fight to the enemy.

“The democratic party simply refuses to offer a viable solution to this problem; all they can manage to do is criticize, whine, and complain.”

Maybe that’s because they’re not in control of any branch of the government… Nah, that couldn’t be it!

“Remember,the surest way to encourage an aggressor is to naively wish for peace.”

Hm… no… The surest way to encourage an aggressor is to piss him/her off while not actually doing anything to deter him/her (much like the situation now with al-Qaeda).

But this is all without offering a solution, which, as I like to say, is the most important part of the debate. My solution would be to promote pro-Americanism by slowly changing the face of the ugly American. Maybe if we actually started treating people as equals instead of just giving them that title we could make some progress in foreign relations. Basically, you beat the enemy by getting the world back on your side. Unfortunately, that has gotten successively harder since the 2000 elections due to our antagonism towards other nations, and this is, in my opinion, the biggest blunder the Bush administration has made to date.

LimeTime

You said:

the Clinton administration … refused to believe that terrorism was even a threat

That’s simply not true. The Clinton administration did believe that terrorism was a serious threat. However, the Republican were so intent on impeaching Clinton for lying about his personal life that nothing was done about it.

Except for one thing. National Countererrorism coordinator Richard Clarke warned the Bush Administration in no uncertain terms of the serious threat posed by Al Qaeda. But the Bush League did nothing about it. They also ignored more specific warnings of possible hijackings. Bush himself spent the entire month of August on vacation in Texas.

The goal of US foriegn policy is very simple: to make us stronger and our enemies weaker.

However, the Bush League’s go-it-alone, our-way-or-the-highway behavior has isolated us from our allies. Furthermore, there have been several news reports over the last few months that this unjustified invasion is driving thousands of Muslims into the waiting arms of the terrorists.

So the Bush administration may in fact be making us weaker and our enemies stronger.

Jack,

And there you go again — once more trying to convince me that where there is smoke, there isn’t any need for us to suspect fire.
All I can think of is how The Red Cross was waving flags well before Abu Ghraib about prisoner abuse, but there was complete denial over those allegations at the time. Very similar to how these stories of Quran desecration have been coming out for two years along with all the other reports regarding humiliation and abuse.
And that’s the problem, really — whether this story is true, or not.
If there wasn’t so many other shameful things we can point to with certainty, we might now be able to easily dismiss this one military source that Newsweek used (who for some reason suddenly decided to backtrack), but because of all we already know to be true, it is impossible not to speculate that it may have actually happened.

LimeTime said:

And to all you anti-republicans: being conservative doesn’t mean you’re an ultra-conservative religious extremist.

True enough but remember that zealuous, ultra-conservative religious extremist’s occupy the highest positions in congress and are pretty loud in their evangalism. Vote them out of office in put in more moderates so us secularists won’t be so offended.

Adrienne

As I wrote in other parts of the blog, there have been 300 credible indications of abuse and 70 of those are confirmed. A lot yes, but considering the hundreds of thousands of people involved in a war where people are getting killed everyday, a lower total than you might expect.

When we find credible evidence, we try the people involved and punish them. Nobody can guarentee that bad things won’t happen. All we can do is react properly.

The Army began to investigate Abu Ghraib three months before those pictures came out. Investigations take time.

There is no evidence anyone has misused a Koran. The military has a clear, written policy about respect for it. If anything did happen, it would be a crime. BUT the big word is IF.

LimeTime,

Just how do you propose to fight against over a billion Muslims?
Our policies haven’t even been able to convince them that Americans are the good guys.

“….. and the occupation has made the middle east region a terrorist harbor , soiled our name on the world stage …..”

Damn. I didn’t realize everything was just so wonderful over there, and everybody loved us, before Bush screwed up? by taking out Saddam.
He should have let him be, helped remove the sanctions, and let him get on with his business.
The war on terror would have been over.

Dawn,

Just where were Al Queda in the middle east before we invaded Iraq? ok, possibly in Saudi Arabia but from everything I’ve read, they were not in Iraq.

They certainly are there now.

He should have let him be, helped remove the sanctions, and let him get on with his business.

Nice cynicism there. Yes, we should have let him be “at this time”, He was not an imminent threat to the US. Our objective is the war on terror and Al Queda. There was and is no connection between the two. Remember Afganistan and Osama. I haven’t heard the Prez speak on that topic for quite a while but at least we are spreading democracy in the middle east. That doesn’t sound like the war on terror either. Are we even fighting the war on terror anymore or are we spreading democracy?

Our focus sure has shifted away from 9-11.

“I haven’t heard the Prez speak on that topic for quite a while but at least we are spreading democracy in the middle east. That doesn’t sound like the war on terror either.”

It’s not?

I don’t remember if you were writing here way back when … but I was one of those that said -‘He(Bush) better be right(WMD’s).’
Not just because of Hussein and the reasonS to take him out … because of the climate of hate that we live in nowadays.
Everyone is in such a big hurry to find mistakes and make sure they point them out as loud and fast as possible.
It’s EVERYWHERE. In the U.S. we use political parties to attack each other, or opposite ideas about any issue.(If you don’t have a good arguement - start a personal attack even if it has nothing to do with the ‘issue’.) We have those in the Muslim world finding anything they can use to say the U.S. is bad and hates Islam
Just like the book in the toilet - what exactly is the reason for a US publication to rush to print a story like that? Do they work for the terrorists? I don’t accept freedom of the press and it is just another story. There is a human being making the decisions to go to print. There are reasons for everything we do.
If the Republicans hadn’t gone after Clinton’s sex life like they did? would the Democrats be finding fault with anything and everything the Reps are doing now?
No glass houses.
Until we start acting like adults, how can we expect the Muslim world to stop the riots in the streets over a few words in a magazine?
We are being told that the problem isn’t with Islam - it is with the radicals that use the religion to fuel the flames of hate toward the Western world. But, we have to walk on egg shells because they don’t say the same things when a few of us do something uncalled for?
Our ‘fight’ is with the leaders in the Muslim world. They are afraid of losing power by sharing power. This includes the heads of government to the clerics in the mosques.
We can not reach the people, not truely, until those that fill their heads with the hate are replaced. Until they choose to spread their religion through love and not death.

“Our ‘fight’ is with the leaders in the Muslim world. They are afraid of losing power by sharing power. This includes the heads of government to the clerics in the mosques.
We can not reach the people, not truely, until those that fill their heads with the hate are replaced. Until they choose to spread their religion through love and not death.”

Dawn,

Gosh, I almost hate to say this but I agree with you. The sad thing is that virtually everything you said in the above statement could be paralelled in this country.
We here in America, are polarized as never before. And we have our leaders, both in our government, and in our churches to thank for it.
Until we can give these folks a reason to live for their beliefs insted of dying for them, the situation will go on as it is.

Dawn,

I agree with what you said but I am still pissed that we didn’t finish what Al Queda started in Afganistan. The president made a MASSIVE decision to spread democracy in the middle east without my support. I totally agree with the war on terror. I have never said that I wasn’t.

Ok, so now the president has gotten into a war that I don’t agree with, the middle east is less stable IMHO and our own country is split right down the middle.

You have to ask yourself, was it worth it.

Also, on my side. What would your side like me to do? I am a dissenting opinion on the war. Should I flipflop my opinion just to appease the war supporters?

Ok..where to start…

Reed: “…we should be using our resources in Afganistan…”ROOT OUT OSAMA BIN LADEN” in Afganistan actually does exist among the more liberal side.

I’m sure this does exist on the more liberal side, as it also exists on the conservative side. You should try and convince your democratic leadership to state this more often. Instead, all I hear is “this is Bush’s Vietnam”, “Iraq quagmire”, Iraq this, Iraq that.

Of course, most of the bad news comes out of Iraq these days, and not Afghanistan, until this Newsweek debacle. We have made huge strides in Afghanistan over the past 4 years; however, I agree with you: Bush has let this key front on terrorism slide by the wayside.

And like I mentioned before, I do not support all of Bush’s policies. And, like most liberals, I’m sure you’re not a Saddam loyalist. It would be nice though, if only once, a liberal would say that the world is a better place without Saddam. As grim as the situation is now, which is better: fledgling democracy in making or continued maniacal dictatorship? Please review history before you decide.

Zeek,

You fail to realize the essence of terrorism. Islamic fundamentalists have interpretted the teachings of Muhammed so that everybody who does not conform to Islam must be cleansed from the earth. Whether I want to fight and kill them or you want to hug and kiss them, they will hate all of us just the same. It is not what we do, and it is not how we change to appear more worldly, friendly and caring (handsome American instead of ugly American?). They want us dead. Period.

ElliotBay: “The Clinton administration did believe that terrorism was a serious threat. However, the Republican were so intent on impeaching Clinton for lying about his personal life that nothing was done about it.”

Please remind me what the Clinton administration did after the 1993 WTC bombing? How about Khobar Towers, US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, or even the USS Cole off the coast of Yemen? Instead of a national security threat, Clinton perceived terrorism as a criminal activity. His complete inaction to these events emboldened bin-Laden, leading directly to September 11th. Shifting blame to Republicans because they held Clinton accountable for perjury in a completely unrelated manner isn’t going to cut it.

Rocky,

We don’t have to fight 1 billion Muslims worldwide. Most Muslims are just like you and me - everyday working people with friends, families, hobbies, etc., except they have different religious beliefs. Many of these Muslims do not see us as the “bad” guys, because they realize the the policies of the Bush administration to not represent every American, just as the policies of bin-Laden do not represent every Muslim. Like in the US, we have to be wary of the fundamentalist religious zealots, Muslim or Taoist or Christian. Remember David Koresh and the Branched Davidians?

Furthermore (and this applies to reed’s comment), Bush is not a religious fundamentalist, much to the dismay of many secularist liberals. Searching for guidance through your religion does not make you a zealot.

Reed:
“What would your side like me to do?”

No one is asking you to change your opinion or feelings about things.
No one is asking anyone to stop fighting for what they think is right.
What I I am asking of people is to stop and think about what they are about to say. Stop and consider how they would feel if it were directed at them and maybe change a few words around so it doesn’t always sound like a personal attack.
When was the last time a discussion or debate was productive by starting with ‘You’re a moron and your idea sucks …’ or ‘The way you did it was stupid, I could have done it better.’?
That is all I seem to hear these days.

Vote ALL incumbents OUT!!

LimeTime,

I did not ever say Bush was a religious zealot, but the highest ranking members of congress are. That would be Bill Frist and Tom Delay and they hold the leadership positions of the GOP. Bush may not be a religious fundamentalist but it is perceived that he does pander to their side.

I am not asking religious leaders not to look for guidance through there faith because that can’t be helped. I am just demanding that those people take off the blinders and realize that we are a secular country and people of all faiths should be able to co-exists. Buddhists and Hindus are only pagan in the eyes of a devout christian.

Dawn,

When was the last time a discussion or debate was productive by starting with ‘You’re a moron and your idea sucks …’ or ‘The way you did it was stupid, I could have done it better.’?

I agree that debates are not won this way except maybe, I could have done it better….. and these are the reasons.

I know that we are in Iraq to finish the job because we don’t have any other choice now. I am just demanding that Bush take responsibility, stop blaming the dissenters for the mess and that the American people show their convictions at the polls…. and yes I know Bush is a lame duck president.

Yes, I know its alot to ask but when the president publicly can’t account for or admit any mistakes he has made, that doesn’t give me warm fuzzies for the competency of the operation.

LimeTime

Using the standard right wing tactic of blaming Clinton is a nice try to change the topic, but it doesn’t address my central point - that President Bush’s policy on terrorism (i.e., unjustifiably invading a non-related country) is driving our allies away from us while at the same time driving thousands of otherwise uncommitted Muslims into the waiting arms of Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. This is having the net effect of making the US weaker and our enemies stronger. In short, Bush is making the war on terrorism much more difficult to win.

By the way, the perpetrators of the 1993 WTC bombing are in prison. Just where is Osama bin Laden?

LimeTime,

You fail to realize the essence of terrorism. Islamic fundamentalists have interpretted the teachings of Muhammed so that everybody who does not conform to Islam must be cleansed from the earth.

What makes you think I don’t realize that? I’m just saying that you have no idea who is a militant Islamic and who isn’t.

Whether I want to fight and kill them or you want to hug and kiss them, they will hate all of us just the same.

I wouldn’t dream of making people so fully endoctrinated into hating America friends with us.

It is not what we do, and it is not how we change to appear more worldly, friendly and caring (handsome American instead of ugly American?). They want us dead. Period.

My point here was if we could isolate the militant Islam groups, such as al-Qaeda, the War on Terror would be a lot easier. I’m talking about making peace with the rest of the world, you know, those countries that would like nothing better than to see the U.S. fail miserably (e.g. France, China, Russia, Germany, etc.). For some reason you thought that I wanted to make friends with the terrorists… Well, just to set the record straight, I do not love terrorists and I do not hate America.

The ‘big guy’ didn’t have anything to do with ‘93?

Reed,

Fair enough. I must have misread your comment from yesterday. While I agree that the religious right wing must be more understanding of our country’s secular nature, it would be nice to see the secular left wing remove their blinders and acknowledge that a majority of Americans still practice religion.

ElliotBay,

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it was you that blamed Republicans for distracting Clinton from fighting terrorist threats. My point is, since the 1993 WTC bombing, terror attacks against our interests grew larger, bolder, and more spectacular. Clinton had 8 years to take action. Bush had 8 months.

Now, we can keep bickering back and forth about who’s to blame if you like. Neither Clinton nor Bush are completely to blame; but it was certainly a failure of intelligence and communication of the highest magnitude, which has led us into our current situation. We both know that the people who flew those airplanes that quiet Tuesday morning are both of Saudi descent. Personally, and I think you might agree with me here, we should have invaded Saudi