Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

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Nathan, I’m not hearing any practical or efficient idea here… There’s a reason that the school systems are failing and I would say it’s the lack of money. Prove me wrong; prove that there’s some other way to revitalize our education system with the kind of funding Bush is currently dishing out.

Posted by: Zeek at April 30, 2005 12:17 PM

Another way that we can work towards improving the schools is to reduce the number of administrators.

How about the “65 Percent Solution”?

This is a great way to ensure that more money is reaching the classroom without raising taxes! The main opposition to such a referendum would be those administrators who will lose their jobs.

Posted by: Michael Burns at April 30, 2005 12:23 PM

There’s a reason that the school systems are failing and I would say it’s the lack of money.

Zeek, what about the “65 Percent Solution”?

Posted by: Michael Burns at April 30, 2005 12:25 PM

One of the problems is the federal government. They should get out of the education business. That is the responsibility of the several states. Then get rid of the policy that says when an administrator fails and the supervisory board the administrator answers to “buys out the contract”. Buying out a contract is mis-appropriation of the taxpay funds. Schools are in many cases paid for a daily head count. For instance if the system pays $900 per head per day, then the administrators start leaning to a bring in the cash mentality and the disciplinary procedure lacks a spine to do right. Most administrators are paid far too much in salary. In my community the Superintendant of Schools is paid $90,000 and has more that her share of perks. She does not have a doctorate. She micro-manages. She only got 50% on the state math test. Is is any wonder that the student learning curve is sour? I propose that we do away with public education. With private education, there would be greater competition for the best curriculum, teachers, cost, etc.
The state would provide vouchers for families to sent their children to the school of choice. The schoold would be smaller and therefore should be able to relegate and delegate more time to each student. That is the basic framework for what I see as a solution.

Posted by: tom at April 30, 2005 12:30 PM

Nathan,

Great post, but I’ll give you the same advice that I gave J.A.Matel in another, “put a garbage can lid over your butt, many will be winding up to kick it”.

I agree, the “pubic” school system is a mess and more money wont fix it.

I like the idea of vouchers, the jury is still out on charter schools.

I would never support any changes that had hidden ajendas to foster “white flight” or leaving minoritys and the poor behind.
I wish both sides of the isle could come to the table and really debate the issues on how to improve the system. I can’t see that happening, the teachers “onion” will block everything.
I’d like to see what would happen if retired business mgr.’s were hired as superintedants, would money problems go away?

Posted by: Beagle at April 30, 2005 12:53 PM

You guys talk as if you have the schools to spare to shutdown a few. There is a shortage of schools, teachers, textbooks, computers and who knows what else. High School Teachers cannot afford to buy Homes at thier salaries. There are rules now that require classes to spend EXACTLY 10 minutes on a topic.

The worst thing is. We have people who have NO teaching experience saying how it should all be done. I mean they talk about Charter Schools and Voachers and putting Condoms on Bananas as if they have decades worth of teaching experience!!!

Don’t you all find that annoying?

Posted by: Aldous at April 30, 2005 01:07 PM

Nathan …. Great article.

An observation …. In the US we have the best University system in the world. Students from all over the world come to our Universities because they are very good. We are also near the bottom of the World’s Elementary and High Schools.

Is there a common thread? Could it be that most parents have no choice in Elementary and High School to send their kids? They have to go to the Government Schools. But do parents have a choice at the College and University level?

The best Univerities and Colleges hire the best faculties and attract the best students both in the State and Private colleges. The Poor ones ultimately go out of business because they can’t attract faculty and students. Choice works!

Unfortunately the Government schools where parents have no choice, and the teachers unions dominate the agenda have no reason to change. They have no competition for either students or teachers.

What do you think?

Posted by: Dick Hartl at April 30, 2005 01:30 PM

One thing I would point out to those who believe that a student takes with them only the money spent on themselves under a voucher program:

Many things are cheaper to buy in bulk than individually. It is one of the reasons that small business is at a disadvantage to large corporations, and it applies here as well. As more students leave a school under a voucher program, fewer things can be bought in bulk for the remaining students, and therefor the money no longer stretches as far. This drives the average price of educating the remaining students up. I have no figures on exactly how much, but this is one factor that I do not think you are considering in your arguments.

Posted by: Jarin at April 30, 2005 01:58 PM

It should also be noted that if the number of students in a school goes down, the money available for shared resources such as computer labs, libraries, and similar facilities drops accordingly as well.

Posted by: Jarin at April 30, 2005 02:01 PM

Interesting topic although I think it is missing a very important and controversial issue. That is sports. I believe that many many decisions are made based this topic, some good and some not so good.

In the city I live in we have a county population of about 65,000 people and one highschool. My state ranked 48 out of 50 in terms of teacher salaries. Teachers continuously move out of state seeking higher wages. The highschool was designed for 1200 students and is currently at 1800 students. That figure is projected to be 2400 in 5 years. Call me crazy but this is overcrowded. There has been a bill for many years to build a second highschool but the parents dont want to lose the class AA sports affiliation in the state so they can play against the biggest schools. This also seems crazy to put more importance on sports than academics.

What does this have to do with the topic, well all this talk of getting rid of government sponsored schools and going to private education with vouchers won’t be acceptable to the many sports crazed parents that want to see there kid win the state championship against rival capital city high.

Especially in impovershed inner city highschools, sports are arguably used as as possible way out of poverty if they can get accepted to a college.

I definitely don’t have the answers to the public education problems and I agree that we should use the money more wisely but I thought I would bring up an different point of view.

Posted by: reed at April 30, 2005 02:01 PM

Universities are better than other schools because they have more money per student because they collect thousands of dollars from tuition from each student. Public Schools do not have nearly enough money when compared to tuition collecting private schools.

I’m currently in public High School and most of my classes have 25+ students in them; the public school system has not enough teachers to educate students properly. Also, my school has not had the money to replace our Math textbooks since the 70’s so the textbooks we use are thirty years old and falling apart, mine is missing a couple pages, and I have to ask one of my friends what it says on those pages if those pages are the homework. All around me I see places where inadequate funding has lead to shortfalls in students here.

I read the 65% solution and it sounds nice, but I think it would be most effective to combine it with increased spending on Education.

Posted by: Warren at April 30, 2005 02:04 PM

The 65% idea sounds nice in theory, but I’m discouraged at the lack of evidence. The 4 states that spend 65% of their money in classrooms, New York, Utah, Tennessee, and Maine, aren’t exactly known for their stellar schools.

Posted by: Zeek at April 30, 2005 02:45 PM

There are two differences between the public and private school systems. The private schools spend about a third per studednt that the public shools do. The private schools are not full of liberals. Yet it is amazing at the improved literacy, graduation rate and the total of those that go on to college.

Posted by: scott at April 30, 2005 03:44 PM

The biggest issue with public education is our teacher salaries. My former boss was an extremely great person. He wanted to be a teacher more then anything, but when he realized he couldn’t teach and support a family, he chose a different career field. He makes about five times as much in his current position as opposed to teaching. He would have been an excellent teacher. Even if teachers made just a little bit more, I think that he would have chosen to become a teacher.

It is really just impossible to recruit the caliber of people we need to teach. I’m not saying this to disrespect any of the current teacher’s. There are so many that are wonderful, and they are completely underpayed. It’s great to see those people who just teach because that is what they love to do. You need to pay people well, or at least fair, if you expect them to do a good job.

Administrators are paid way to much. I understand that there needs to be a ruling authority that looks into problems at the school, but do they deserve 90K when the teachers barely make 30K, I don’t think so.

I’m not for private vouchers. I think everyone should have to pay into public education, and if you want to go to school somewhere else, go for it, but everyone needs to foot the bill to educate our nation.

As for sports, that is an area that we could totally cut back in. I loved High school sports, I played football and volleyball, but there could easily be some major budget cuts that take place in these sports.

I think that basic sex education is necessary. Not every parent does a great job at talking with their children about sex. Basic anatomy, and an understanding of sex is necessary to understanding health and biology.

In short, pay the teachers more so that we can get better teachers

Posted by: Ivan Mitchell at April 30, 2005 03:56 PM

Warren, I went to a private grade school where the teacher had two grades of about 25 students to teach in the same room. Much of my time was spent listening to what was being presented to the other grade. Our books were all second hand from the public school. I skipped some days and generally did not apply myself, but I will place my education along side any college freshman. I still find it amazing that some of those in this generation can find and hold a job. It is true that the average wage at this time was a dollar per hour and the teacher made little more than room and board.

Posted by: George at April 30, 2005 04:05 PM

“In the US we have the best University system in the world.”

Right. Ohio has 27 universities. There are only 2 in Britain.
What is the cost of a college education? Compare a state college & any private college you’d like.

My daughter is an honors student in High School. Her school was built to hold 1,200 students; 2,000 attend.

I’ve taught High School English & Social Studies. I loved teaching, but I changed careers. I make several times over what I would make as a teacher.

Teacher:student ratio is very important. My daughter’s classes held 35 and even 40 students.

The second best private school in the state is a short drive from where I live. We investigated sending her there.

Despite superior student:teacher ratios, the private school’s honor students were about one year behind the public high school’s honor student’s in terms of curriculum.

The subtitle of the a course on comparative religions, and I kid you not:
“What is wrong with other religions”
Of course, a private school is entitled to go that route.

And finally, why vouchers will never work…
Public schools take everyone. Under Title VII, every child is given a chance. Some children cost more to school due to learning disabilities, physical problems, etc. Private schools do not need to admit such students. Special Education in public schools is very expensive. As a society, we could make the cold decision to cut our losses, I suppose…

Because when you talk vouchers, and jettisoning public education, that’s where you’re going.

Posted by: phx8 at April 30, 2005 04:28 PM

Warren,

You stated:

I read the 65% solution and it sounds nice, but I think it would be most effective to combine it with increased spending on Education.

In most cases, the 65% solution would result in a 4% increase in spending at the classroom for most states. The only purpose for increasing the spending initially would be to keep the administrators. The administrators do not teach our children!

Posted by: Michael Burns at April 30, 2005 04:30 PM

And finally, why vouchers will never work… Public schools take everyone. Under Title VII, every child is given a chance. Some children cost more to school due to learning disabilities, physical problems, etc. Private schools do not need to admit such students. Special Education in public schools is very expensive. As a society, we could make the cold decision to cut our losses, I suppose…

Are you suggesting that there is no other way to assist those with learning disabilities than to force everyone into public education?

What about my “right to choose” how best to educate my children?

Vouchers are about choice. Here in California, the initiative on the ballot several years ago was going to take about 55% of the funds generally available “per student” and offer that to parents if they choose. The remaining funds would remain in the school system with one less student requiring teaching. In essence, the “per-pupil” spending for public schools would have increased. It is unfortunate that the teachers union fought so aggressively against it!

Posted by: Michael Burns at April 30, 2005 05:03 PM

Michael,

“Are you suggesting that there is no other way to assist those with learning disabilities than to force everyone into public education?”

Legally, that’w where it stands right now. Take a look at this court decision:

SACRAMENTO CITY SCHOOL DIST. v. RACHEL H., 14 F.3d 1398 (9th Cir. 1994)

Sacramento School District spent hundreds of thousands of dollars fighting this case.

Rachel H. was mentally retarded, with an IQ of 44.

Under Title VII, the court ruled for Rachel H. In addition to the legal fees, the District incurred an enormous cost to provide her with a public education.

Until the Supreme Court changes its mind, public schools will provide everyone an education.

“What about my “right to choose” how best to educate my children?”

You & I both have that choice. As I already mentioned, I’ve looked into private schools. Many people do opt out of public schools, choosing religious schools and home schooling.

However, you & I both know there is an element of unfairness involved, because most people cannot afford private education. For most, it’s a matter of income.

When it comes to education, is income what this country’s all about?

In philosophical terms, public education unifies our culture. In broad terms, it gives every child, every child , an equal opportunity. Every one of us, whether we have children or not, benefits from providing this opportunity.

I think I understand where you’re coming from, Mike. I have children. I’ve taught children. I’m not disputing that the idea of school vouchers has some merit. Reasonable people can disagree about controversial issues, and almost invariably, both sides have valid points. But when weighing against the value of an intact public education system, & the opportunity it provides for all, I have to come down on the side of public education.

Btw, Warren, I like the “65% Solution.” It makes sense as a goal. I’m not familiar with the situation in other states, but in Oregon, most districts (not all) have already drastically cut administrative costs. Due to a poor economy, most school districts are in pretty desparate shape.

Increased state spending & a 65% Solution? Sounds like a good idea.

Posted by: phx8 at April 30, 2005 05:35 PM

Nathan says: “We continue to try to improve results by throwing more money at the problem.”

I’d like to understand more of what’s behind this claim. Is there really that little correlation between money spent per student, and quality of education? My impression is that the schools that spend more per student are generally better places to study.

If you switch to a voucher system, more students will go to private and parochial schools. In almost all cases those schools cost more than public schools, so the parents that switch will pay more - the difference between their vouchers and the private school tuition.

The effect might be better education - but in part, at least, because more money will be spent. Isn’t that throwing money at the problem? or is it ok, because money will be directed at the wealthier students? And your comments don’t address the major flaw of vouchers - they accelerate the flight of the middle-class out of public schools, which inevitably leads to *less* money being “thrown” at public education.

As a parent, I like the idea of spending some of my money and improving my child’s education. (And there are lots of ways to do it - summer camps, after school programs,etc.) As a citizen I feel strongly that having the entire population well-educated is a public good, and I’m reluctant to endorse anything weaken the commitment of middle-class parents to public schools.

I do believe school choice works - in Pittsburgh for instance, there is a system of magnet schools, which means that you can send your child to more than one public school. I’d love to see discussions of how choice could be implemented without weakening the public school system.

Posted by: William Cohen at April 30, 2005 05:42 PM

It would be interesting to know some other cost comparisons of public vs. private.
Our government has been known to pay a whole lot more for things than they would if it were a private business.
Does this happen in schools too? Like more for books and computers?
Maybe someone here knows.
I know my daughters school had the landscaping done for free from a local business for the advertisement - do most schools take advantage of things like this??

Posted by: dawn at April 30, 2005 05:50 PM

As a former private school student, I would like to put in my 2 cents worth.

I spent 10.5 of my formative years in a Parochial school. The problem isn’t nescessarily lack of money, although more would help. The problem isn’t nescessarily lack of qualified teachers, although more would help here as well.
The problem is lack of parental involvement. Parents either don’t have, or don’t want to take the time to involve themselves in their childs education.
Most folks see private school vouchers as some sort of panecea, that will cure all the ills of the public education system. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Every child that is truly interested in an education should get one, I totally agree with this, however, exceptional students don’t become exceptional without exceptional teachers.
As private school class sizes rise, the need for teachers will out strip the availibility.

For profit schools, please tell me your joking. The botom line will become more important than the student.
I mean, after all, it has worked so well in the healthcare industry.

Exceptional teachers need to be hired. Mizerly administrators need to be fired.
The childs education is worth more than a balance sheet.
Budgets are important, but bean counters have ruined the public school system.

Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2005 06:42 PM

The first thing you must realize is that the US educational system does not exist to educate our children - rather its purpose is a jobs program for teachers. If the Educational system existed to teach children then they would integrate home schoolers.

I have four children in the public school system. There are some good teachers - but for the most part its a joke. When I went to school the joke majors were psychology and education (I guess now its communications).

I was a chemistry major - I studied five hours a night usually - and would get around a 3.5. ONe day an education major was laughing at me - she said she got the same cum and she only studied an hour a week. I asked her what her last work was. She said cutting A’s and B’s out of construction paper. I wondered how that compared to the Shrodinger Wave Equation? Yet now she makes more money and has more time off than I do !

Teachers schedules - what a joke - they only work 180 days out of the year - 10 minutes off every hour - study halls to monitor in which they do their work - usually only a 7 hour work day - and oh yes here’s a good one - they love to remind me they take work home - like this is some major hurdle!! that tells me how easy they have it if they complain about that - the only poeple who dont take work home are asking if you want ketchup with those fries.

Our property taxes are outlandish - why? to pay for all the retirement and health benefits of the darling teachers - Tenure! Why? Even the CEO of IBM can get fired if they don’t perform

But don’t worry - it will all eventually come to an end - see our National Defense is based on our technology - our technology is based upon our educational system and our educational system is based upon our teachers - so in another 30 or 40 years when were overrun by the rest of the world - thank a teacher and more importantly their union.

The irony of the situation however, is that good teachers are actually harmed by the union - but why should anyone be suprised that a union favors mediocrity? If the system were privatized - good teachers would make more money and incompetents woudl be fired - but we can’t do that - like all good State and Federal unions the teachers union in conjunction with the aforementioned have become a dumping ground for the incompetents of society - can’t make it the private sector - go work for the gov. Efficiency - less than 40% guaranteed raises, can’t be fired, guaranteed retirement etc etc. Its a joke and its destroying our country

Posted by: Mike at April 30, 2005 07:57 PM

“Our property taxes are outlandish - why? to pay for all the retirement and health benefits of the darling teachers - Tenure! Why? Even the CEO of IBM can get fired if they don’t perform”

Yea Mike, but the CEO of IBM makes millions a year in stock options and has a golden parachute.
It must really suck to get fired from IBM.

Give me a break.

Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2005 08:06 PM

More money for education - please please your hurting me - I can’t laugh any more.

Lets look at my district -

Cost per student approx. $12,000 - yes thats right - major costs - teachers salaries and retirement funding.

Lets just look at this - average classroom 23 students. Ok lets give that money to the parents to spend but lets cut the tax bill in half - GASP GASP

OK so now parents get together to hire teachers - say they want to cut classroom size down to 15. So now they would get (15 x $6000) $90,000 per year to edcuate 15 children. The average teacher gets $45K - lets get the best one we can and give em a raise. OK so we hire the teacher for $50K- WE now have 40K left over - thats right 40K. We could build a great little school house in two years. We could probably buy computers for each child and even send them to Europe - and thats cutting the tax bill in half - and you still want more money!!!

How is it that parochial schools produce better students with much less money ?

Ummm Ummm might it have anything to do with those nuns that everyone likes to make fun of - you know those ladies who work for a cause rather than a paycheck ?

Hmmm go figure - and that makes a better student? Really? Well I’ll be - can’t we just keep raising taxes - wont that solve the problem?

Posted by: Mike at April 30, 2005 08:13 PM

Ah Rocky - like all lost liberals you miss the point - the point is - if you are incompetent you should be removed - not left working to wreak havoc - no matter where you are and what you do. We have had teachers found guilty of hiring prostitutes on their lunch break - and nothing happens to them - great role models!

Oh yes Rocky - I dont beleive that CEO’s should get the outlandish monies they do - its wrong - unless they took the risk to establish the business - but to just come out of College with an MBA and make that type of money without risking your life savings to build and grow a business - wrong

Posted by: MIke at April 30, 2005 08:18 PM

Fairness of public education - its not - its clearly dsicriminatory

Lets start with a premise -

let all become everything they are capable of - each child should be challenged to the level of their capabilties

I think most could agree with that - but its not happening.

IN our district if you are a gifted or talented student - you cannot be challenged -

If fairness is defined as allowing each child to achieve their best then this is not happening. There is a very very uneven distribution of resources within our local school system. Millions of dollars are being spent on programs to help sub average students - yet nothing to help talented students be challenged - So how is it that we allow certain children to become all that they are capable of but not others? How is it that we feel comfortable discriminating against some people?

Well I will tell you - this all stems from liberals misunderstanding of the word equal. They think equal means everyone is the same - so they want everyone to graduate with the exact same amount of knowledge.

Now anyone with a lick of common sense could tell you that everyone will not graduate and run the mile at the same time - yet we continue to spend billions of dollars thinking everyone will graduate with the same IQ. Its not going to happen

I personally have seen over $100K be spent on one child in a school year who would never be able to do more than ABC - but ask for something for a gifted or talented student - oh no - your elitist - the irony is - that gifted and talented student - if challenged might go on and invent something to benefit that other poor child - but not today - today we will all be equal - we will all be somewhat dumb - thats fair aint it?

Posted by: Mike at April 30, 2005 08:36 PM

“Ah Rocky - like all lost liberals you miss the point”

Ah Mike, like most conservatives you assume too much.
If more parents were involved in their childs education, they would see that the incompetence lies with the highly paid administrators that hire the teachers.
Home schooled children may get a good education, on say, punctuation and syntax, for instance. However, they have few real skills that are usefull in dealing with life after their formal education is over. Going to school with other children isn’t just about learning from books, it’s also about learning how to deal with other people. Those skills are more important in adult life than the square root of Pi.

“We have had teachers found guilty of hiring prostitutes on their lunch break - and nothing happens to them - great role models!”

And statisticaly, Mike, how often does that happen?
Yes, once is wrong, but do you indict the entire educational system over one or two isolated instances?

Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2005 08:42 PM

phx8,

Under Title VII, the court ruled for Rachel H. In addition to the legal fees, the District incurred an enormous cost to provide her with a public education.

I understand that the public school system cannot turn anyone away. I understand that it costs more to educate those with learning disabilities. That wasn’t what I was questioning.

My question was, “does having to educate those with learning disabilities mean we have to force everyone else into public education?”

And … a follow-up question …

How does taking away 55% of the “per-pupil” spending for a voucher system prevent the education of those with learning disabilities?

Yes, we do have a choice today. Actually, as you pointed out, those who have the money have a choice.

Personally, my wife and I made the choice several years ago to withdraw our children from the public education system because it was failing them. We homeschool one child and the other goes to a private school. We have sacrificed owning a home (we do own a small condo) to ensure that our children are getting the education that is best for them.

Should we have to “sacrifice” because we want a better education for our children? I don’t think so. I would like some of my money that I pay into the education system back so I can pay for the education I choose for my children. That is what the voucher system is all about!

Posted by: Michael Burns at April 30, 2005 08:53 PM

Teachers schedules - what a joke - they only work 180 days out of the year - 10 minutes off every hour - study halls to monitor in which they do their work - usually only a 7 hour work day - and oh yes here’s a good one - they love to remind me they take work home - like this is some major hurdle!! that tells me how easy they have it if they complain about that - the only poeple who dont take work home are asking if you want ketchup with those fries.

At my last job, I temped for $7 an hour among factory workers that start at 12 dollars an hour and go up from there, and regularly worked 6 days a week, mandatory overtime. None of us took work home. My present job is an auditor with an inventory company. I’m making 8 an hour, plus tax-free mileage reimbursement if I’m asked to drive to a site, and additional minimum wage pay for travel time over an hour (minimum wage for the full travel time if I drive others to the site.) Next thursday, we’re going to a site between three and four hours away, working a full shift inventorying a story, and then driving back. Hardly a fast-food sort of job. We take no work home with us. I think your view of jobs outside of your own industry is rather distorted.

Posted by: Jarin at April 30, 2005 09:06 PM

Rocky,

Home schooled children may get a good education, on say, punctuation and syntax, for instance. However, they have few real skills that are usefull in dealing with life after their formal education is over. Going to school with other children isn’t just about learning from books, it’s also about learning how to deal with other people.

I would like to chime in on this.

I grew up with a visible, facial deformity. When I was in public school during the 70’s and the “name calling” occurred, which is normal behavior for kids, no one in an authortative position “came to my rescue”. I had to learn how to deal with those situations myself. And, I did. I learned the “true” meaning of the “sticks and stones” saying.

The above is not so for today’s public education system. Today, children are not allowed to learn how to deal with other children. They are either forced to tolerate those who are considered tolerable or those who are “intolerable”, like bullies, are punished by those in authority. Today’s children are “shielded” from the realities of life in the public education system.

So, from where I sit, the fact that a child is not getting the public school systems version of “social education” may actually be a benefit for the homeschooler.

Posted by: Michael Burns at April 30, 2005 09:26 PM

“So, from where I sit, the fact that a child is not getting the public school systems version of “social education” may actually be a benefit for the homeschooler.”

Michael,

Yes and no. And just where does that leave us?

Something has to be done, but I’m not sure that vouchers and home school are the solution. I stated my opinion of vouchers earlier in this thread. All it does is remove more money from the schools that need it the most, and, at best, it is a stop-gap solution.
When the private schools have to hire teachers to make up for the influx of students, where will those teachers come from?
How big are we going to allow the classes to be?
Will this become a bottom line operation?

As for home schooled children, who creates and enforces the standards?
I have seen many news reports about parents that home schooled, rejecting the states rights to test their children.

Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2005 09:46 PM

Once again Rocky you bring up points that have nothing to do with the presented argument - of course thats what most liberals do when they can’t argue the point in front of them - so no suprise here.

Did I say that teachers hiring prositutes were the norm?? - No I said a few - once again the point is not how many - the point is that even with such atrocious behavior they cannot be fired - get it Rocky - thats the point they can’t be fired - get it?? Its not how many - its the entire system that will not fire incompetents - get it??

HOme Schoolers in reality are better adjusted - and have much higher grades - the fact of the matter is after you leave high school you most often end up spending most of your time in social situations with peers. These peers usually have a similar mental capacity as you.

Getting thrown up against a locker hasnt happened to me since - well since high school - hmmm and come to think of it - that really didnt help me deal much with reality - matter of fact I havent seen anyone thrown up against a locker since - well since high school. What I have seen though is people who have developed appropriate social skills (you might call them manners in another age) and mental skills move quite rapidly throught the ranks of various industries. HOme schoolers are given such skills. Public schoolers? - its possible - but the parents have to work several times harder at it than if they were home schooled.

Rocky Rocky your inconsistenices are outlandish -but that is nothing new for a liberal.

OK so you want parental involvement - hmmm did I mention that I didnt!? Heres an idea - how about 100% parental involvement - sounds good huh?

Ok so if we had 100% parental involvement we might call that - hmmm we might call that

ummm

home schooling?? but your against that type of parental involvement right??

The fact of the matter is Rocky, education is a triad of teacher student and parent - each must be rewarded and disciplined for good and bad performance. Teacher, student and Parent alike.

But of course we cannot dsicipline anyone anymore in our society - if Johnny thinks 2 and 2 is 5 tell him he did good - because we think self esteem is about what you think you can do not about what you can do. And thats how the public school system prepares our children for reality - yet when they get into reality and someone rapidly realizes that they cannot do basic math - what happens to them Rocky? ANy idea?

I’ll tell ya cause I have seen a hundred times - they are told their idiots and they are fired - aint that sweet - does a lot for their self esteemm huh? they were really prepared for reality weren’t they. Of course I guess they could always go get a job as a ummm …. hmmmm

a teacher?

Dont worry about it though Rocky - in another 40 or 50 years when the US is being torn asunder our children can all go run to get into there escape vehicles - and you know what will happen -none of them will even know how to operate them but guess what - that doesnt matter - they will all feel good about themselves - right up to the point of being blown to pieces

Posted by: Mike at April 30, 2005 10:04 PM

Jarin - I am not sure how your point relates to teachers? I have done plenty of blue collar jobs in my days from construction to farming - I repsect them all - they earn their money - no ?’s here on that. The ? is does the educational system warrant the monies we are spending??

Posted by: MIke at April 30, 2005 10:07 PM

Mike,

Pal, you need to cut back on the caffine.

Appearently, you only read the portions of my post that would allow you to spew the most bile.

Read the whole post and get back to me.

Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2005 10:18 PM

In the area I live in, there is an association of home school parents and they coop to by the books and supplies. Our state spelling champ is a home school child from my community. Science fair projects getting blue ribbons are consistently won by home schoolers. Home schoolers may, at their choosing, participate in local PS sports programs. John Dewey did one heck of a number with the cooperation of other power elites in messing up public education. We had an administrator raping in $168k a year. I sentence is correct. That is raping the taxpayer. The administrator, the school board, and other state officials were responsible for that. My school district superintendant only got 50% on the state mandated math test. She then had the nerve to say it is more important for the kids to learn IRS math. WHAT!!!! Classic case of dumbing down.

Posted by: tom at April 30, 2005 10:19 PM

Jeez, Mike, 23 per classroom? That kicks ass, how could you be bitching about that? My class sizes all push +30, with some around 40.

Posted by: Zeek at April 30, 2005 10:22 PM

Nathan,

I’m the product of the Chicago Public School system. And, that education prepared three of their students for private Eastern boarding schools, two Ivy league colleges and my alma mater Wesleyan University.

I am always challenging the assumption that my grade school education is an inherently inferior example of the government’s failure to properly educate our children.

The truth is, I was offered an appropriate education by dedicated and underpaid educators, and I took advantage of the opportunity, in part due to the ground work laid by my parents in my early adolescence. I can tell you with experience, that coupled with an indifference of parents and a pervasive attitude by peer pressure to reject schooling, these are the major factors for poor performance and high dropout rates among Black students in this country.

I am tired of teachers and administrators taking full blame for the failure of American students, when clearly no one wants to hold parents accountable or recognize the effect a superficial and self-indulgent culture they’re absorbed in, skews their sense of priorities and reality.

Posted by: Bert M. Caradine at April 30, 2005 10:29 PM

Rocky,

How big are we going to allow the classes to be? Will this become a bottom line operation?

Just as with any private business, the customers will decide what is satisfactory. They will either please their customers or go out of business.

That is the crux of the complaints with the public education system. The vast majority of people agree that the public school system is not working. Yet, being a monopoly, there is no incentive for change!

As for home schooled children, who creates and enforces the standards?

I think the ability to enter college is the measuring stick for any educational system. If I choose to homeschool my child, which I have for one of my children, I am going to make sure he/she learns what they need to learn in order to enter college. I don’t want nor need some “bureaucrat” telling me that my child is not meeting “their” standards.

Posted by: Michael Burns at April 30, 2005 10:32 PM

“We had an administrator raping in $168k a year. I sentence is correct.”

Tom,

Are you sure?

I did say that the administrators are the problem.
I am not against home schooling. Read my posts.

I want standards in place that require that certain subjects taught.
I want weekly testing.
There should be federal, not state oversight. These requirements need to be the same for every state, and every student, accross the board. Otherwise what’s the point. Some parents feel it is better to shelter their children from the realities of life. Even a bad teacher is better than a parent that doesn’t know the material that they are teaching.

Mike, while I do lean slightly left of center, I would hardly call these ideas liberal.
If I was a liberal I might be offended by your last post.
As it is I have barely gotten up off the floor I was laughing so hard.

Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2005 10:38 PM

“Just as with any private business, the customers will decide what is satisfactory. They will either please their customers or go out of business.”

Michael,

If a private business goes broke, who suffers?

Going out of business isn’t an option with school children.

Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2005 10:42 PM

Nathan:

I know you are well intentioned, and are repeating what you have heard elsewhere, but as for our public schools being failures

“THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES”

In 1983 some of the greatest minds in our country started a great reform movement when they wrote the paper “A Nation at Risk”. In that paper it concluded:

Our Nation is at risk. Our once unchallenged preeminence in commerce, industry, science, and technological innovation is being overtaken by competitors throughout the world.

Now that we are more than twenty years past this “great” document, I think it is fair to evaluate it’s predictions to see if they are true.

Explain to me how our country has been overtaken in commerce, industry, science and technology?

Twenty years after these terrible predictions, the economy has continued to grow at or above historical norms.

Nobel Prizes for each category from commerce, industry, science and technology are won over and over again by Ameriicans who grew up in this failed system.

Very few people understand how our American system of raising children to take their place in the best trained workforce the world has ever seen works. And why it will continue to produce these ambitious employees for a long time if we do not kill initiative through over doing standard based testing.

Americans have an unusual craving for freedom that is hard wired into our culture. In order to “raise children” to handle the huge choices that we entrust them with, we lighten up on seat time in studies so they can be involved in many many more activities than their foreign competitors.

Literally while foreign students are studying, ours are practicing soccer, taking music lessons, in drama, holding down jobs etc etc. During these years, our children slowly fall behind in learning, but pull way ahead in social knowledge of what it means to be an American, and to be successful in life here in our culture.

Finally, students graduate from high school or college, and go on to a career, still behind in test scores. But learning continues here and drops off overseas.

As American young adults enter their twenties they basically learn what they do not want to do for the rest of their life. Some time in their twenties, with some work experience Americans become wise enough to make wise choice for themselves about how they can fit in to our dynamic economy. To accomplish their goal, many recieve specific targeted training, and because they chose their field, and their foreign competitors were pigeon hold into some field via some sort of testing, Americans pull ahead and out produce their counter parts for the rest of their lives.

It is no accident that the average age of people in community colleges is near thirty.

Some people are fortunate enough to figure it out early. But many many Americans don’t figure it out until they are closer to thirty.

It is this system that is based on training people to be productive in an atmosphere of freedom that continues to produce the best workforce the world has ever seen.

The above is my explaination as to why we lag behind the world in test scores and yet lead the world in so many areas. Take a look at Nobel Prizes and then explain to me how that can happen with a failed education system.

If the Myth of a failed education system were true, we would not be enjoying the prosperity of our current economy.

I understand there will be disagreement on my claim that the myth of failed American education system is an emperer without clothes, and I would love to hear another explaination as to how our education can have been ridiculed has inefficient since really 1957 with “sputnick” and we could have accomplished so much as a country.

Craig

Posted by: Craig Holmes at April 30, 2005 10:54 PM

Rocky
federal oversight would not be a good thing. Any time the feds get into the daily lives of the citizenry and the opportunity for local government to get the job done, then the feds always mess it up and cause more failure and cost. There are many ways for standards to be met. Home school parents know what and where they can comply with. I have found that a lot of home schoolers pass the local PS standards. The parents usually have more concern for their own children to achieve. The focus is so much different than parents of PS students, in general. That is not a blanket statement; just a matter of fact statement.

Posted by: tom at April 30, 2005 10:58 PM

Rocky,

Going out of business isn’t an option with school children.

If my child was not receiving what I consider a proper education, I would remove them long before the school went out of business. It is this fact, parents removing their children from the school, that causes the school to go out of business. If parents “hang in there”, hoping for a change, that is their choice.

My wife and I made the choice to NOT “hang in there” and we removed our children from the public education system, a system that was failing them. And, we will do the same in the future if necessary. That is OUR responsibility as parents!

Posted by: Michael Burns at April 30, 2005 11:01 PM

First, the life of a teacher:

Teachers typically start with a salary in the $20k - $30k range. This varies by locality. Those numbers applied for me, in the Sacramento area, Phoenix, & Oregon. Salaries max out after 20 years in the $50 - $60k range, if they have a masters.

Summer vacation? Yeah, it’s great, that’s a fact. But for most teachers, especially in the early years, that means painting houses or doing other odd jobs during the summer. Most people find it difficult to get by on a teacher’s salary.

10 minute breaks between classes? Are you kidding? Students approach teachers between classes, a lot of them. That’s ok, nothing wrong with it. But a break? Come on!
A free period to grade work? Yes. Can anyone here grade 180 essays in 90 minutes? Think about the corrections & the feedback. Teachers take work home, for a fact
.
Working at home comes with the territory for teacher. Again, I never complained. I liked doing it. But for anyone who thinks teaching is easy, think again.

Spending a day with groups of 30 kids at a time is exhausting. It’s fun. It’s rewarding, maybe the most rewarding work out there. But believe me, it’s exhausting.

” If fairness is defined as allowing each child to achieve their best then this is not happening. There is a very very uneven distribution of resources within our local school system. Millions of dollars are being spent on programs to help sub average students - yet nothing to help talented students be challenged - So how is it that we allow certain children to become all that they are capable of but not others?”

Mike, I think that’s a great point. Is it better to allocate resources for maximum return, by investing in the gifted students?

Or is it better to allocate resources to provide a minimum level of opportunity for all students?

Going for the maximum return is more effective for us as a society, but involves some very cold calculating that involves… children.

Guaranteeing a baseline of opportunity is fairer, & where we are now.

Posted by: phx8 at April 30, 2005 11:07 PM

Craig,

“Nobel Prizes for each category from commerce, industry, science and technology are won over and over again by Ameriicans who grew up in this failed system.”

I’m having trouble verifying this, so, for the sake of humoring me, please name a few Nobel Prize laureates.

Posted by: Zeek at April 30, 2005 11:09 PM

“Home school parents know what and where they can comply with. I have found that a lot of home schoolers pass the local PS standards”

tom,

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but the same cannot be said for every parent in every case. There are lapses that must be accounted for. It is important that there is a minimum standard for education, be it home schooling or otherwise. The only body that can set nation wide standards is the federal government.
Any moron knows that children learn differently. It is however, important that each child meets at least a minimum skills requirement to receive a diploma.
Those that can excel, should be allowed to, those that can’t need to demonstrate basic skills.

Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2005 11:12 PM

Mike:

How much money do you think High School Teachers make? How many Teachers do you know own their own Home?

As for the Greatness of Universities. If any of you managed to finish with a massive Student Loan on you, you are the first I have met.

Posted by: Aldous at April 30, 2005 11:17 PM

Craig
China has built up tremendous commerce and industry with American know how leading the way. One reason they have such a growth is that the average Chinese laborer in a factory earns less than 7 cents an hour. In science and technology Hispanic and Pakistani people have made great strides in these areas. You reported a twenty year span from the report you cited. You are correct in saying it didn’t happen, but it is getting to that point. If things were to get strategically hostile with the Chinese, they would probably put the screws to the good ole’ USA as far as getting all those things we now import from them. We live in perilous times. All of us need to be eternally vigilant in the eduacation of our children and help them to be self reliant ASAP.

Posted by: tom at April 30, 2005 11:22 PM

Considering the fact that China owns most of the US debt thanks to Bush’s Trillion Dollar Deficit, I doubt they will launch a Military War.

Can anyone tell me how you can attract anyone with $25,000 a year?

Posted by: Aldous at April 30, 2005 11:32 PM

The Republican Solution to the Education Problem:

——————————————————————
SEC. 9528. ARMED FORCES RECRUITER ACCESS TO STUDENTS AND STUDENT RECRUITING INFORMATION.

(a) POLICY-

(1) ACCESS TO STUDENT RECRUITING INFORMATION- Notwithstanding section 444(a)(5)(B) of the General Education Provisions Act and except as provided in paragraph (2), each local educational agency receiving assistance under this Act shall provide, on a request made by military recruiters or an institution of higher education, access to secondary school students names, addresses, and telephone listings.

(2) CONSENT- A secondary school student or the parent of the student may request that the student’s name, address, and telephone listing described in paragraph (1) not be released without prior written parental consent, and the local educational agency or private school shall notify parents of the option to make a request and shall comply with any request.

(3) SAME ACCESS TO STUDENTS- Each local educational agency receiving assistance under this Act shall provide military recruiters the same access to secondary school students as is provided generally to post secondary educational institutions or to prospective employers of those students.

(b) NOTIFICATION- The Secretary, in consultation with the Secretary of Defense, shall, not later than 120 days after the date of enactment of the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, notify principals, school administrators, and other educators about the requirements of this section.

(c) EXCEPTION- The requirements of this section do not apply to a private secondary school that maintains a religious objection to service in the Armed Forces if the objection is verifiable through the corporate or other organizational documents or materials of that school.

(d) SPECIAL RULE- A local educational agency prohibited by Connecticut State law (either explicitly by statute or through statutory interpretation by the State Supreme Court or State Attorney General) from providing military recruiters with information or access as required by this section shall have until May 31, 2002, to comply with that requirement.

Posted by: Aldous at April 30, 2005 11:53 PM

Craig,
Great post.

Posted by: phx8 at April 30, 2005 11:56 PM

Zeek:

Go to www.nobelprize.org and have a great time. Makes a person proud to be an American. And proud to be a product of public education!! ch.

Posted by: Craig Holmes at May 1, 2005 12:04 AM

Well Rocky once again you have failed to address the points raised - exactly which points would you like to debate?? lets get specific

Mike

Posted by: Mike at May 1, 2005 12:09 AM

Here’s info on Nobel Prize awards in ratio to total population:

http://members.shaw.ca/delajara/Nobels.html

242 Americans won Nobels as of the posting on that site, which suggests it was updated in 2004. The next closest country was Great Britain, with 85, then Germany, with 73. These numbers exlude the Nobel Peace Prizes.

As a total, the US dominates. As a percentage of total population, the US ranks 11th. The total suggests we must be doing something right.

Posted by: phx8 at May 1, 2005 12:10 AM

tom:

But this public education debate is so old. I remember reading papers after 1957 that sound so much like today. Communist education systems were so superior to ours, and of course in the end, because we taught freedom, the iron curtain fell because americans can think for themselves.

You mention China and China is important. But let me predict the future for you. The world is going to take a left or right turn, just like it did with the information age. Because of our culture, we will turn with the world and China will keep going straight.

What I mean is that just like our public education was “failing” in comparison to Communism, and just like it was failing when compared to the Japenese in the 1980’s, now the same thing is true because of our emphasis on freedom.

Europe will never catch us BECAUSE of their education system that channels students in their young teens based on test scores into certain fields. They breed uniformity instead of “chaos’ like we do.

That is why we have such lively debates. Even this hostile political environment is good for business because it keeps us all sharp. You should see my son’s high school debate team go at it!! Liberals, conservatives, agnostics, atheists, christians, mormons, gays, straights, wackos of every stripe, arguing their viewpoints on the debate bus. Wow is our future bright!!

When my son was a sophmore he came home after a “fierce” battle of wits with agnostics and athiests. (we are pro public school christians). He said “Dad, we have a question for you. Why do the innocent suffer?”. I am an ordained Baptist minister. So I said, “I’m not sure, when you guys figure it out let me know!!”\

I just believe our public education system is the neatest invention to ever his this world. It is a mess because of all the diversity, from rich kids, to poor kids and everything inbetween. It is the our best effort to teach our children to be successful in a diverse world.

I’m a Republican, but I think people who don’t appreciate what a great system we have are off their rocker.

but then they haven’t spent as much time as I have in the classrooms watching the show!!

Craig

Posted by: Craig Holmes at May 1, 2005 12:22 AM

Aldous:

the average teacher in our area makes $45K per year - many couples are both teachers bringing in about 90K per year total - most live in better houses than me. They all have cottages - because they can take the whole summer off - no one else gets that type of time - maybe a week or so. Many retire at about 70K

Rocky:

- heres a great story
ABout 14 years ago my first child started school - I went in and asked for a curriculum - they looked at me dumbfounded - no teachers had them (this is in New York mind you). Finally after pressing them they took me into a large room with many binders on the wall and said here are curriculum. I was dumbfounded - I said to them - dont your teachers hand out a three or four page summary at the start of the year indicating what will be covered? NO

I told them - well this is like walking into McDOnalds and asking for a menu - then they take you into a large room and say heres boxes of food - what would you like - this was my first indication that the entire educational system was in total chaos. A little while later while sitting at a school meeting a fourth grade teacher said that if she only knew what the third graders were taught she would know where to start. This confirmed my suspicions that the system was broken.

We decided to home school. What was the first thing the state wanted from us? You got it a curriculum - yet none of their teachers could produce one for us.

However. lets examine home schooling - as compared to the past where a teacher was often the most knowledgable person in the community that is far form th truth now. Fifteen years ago when we home schooled we were very computer literate - none of the schools even had computers - none of the teachers even used them . My wife and I actually had greater resources, knwoledge and worldly experience than what the school system could offer. Thus our children were accelerated by the process. The idea that they don’t get socialization is as well ludicrous - We had / have a great network in our area and there is tremendous socialization. What we found was that it was actually a much more diverse socialization. The children learned that they could be friends with all sorts of people - even the elderly etc that they might visit in a nursing home. AS opposed to many children in the public school system that beleive they can only be friends with children in their grade or on their soccer team etc etc. home schooled children rapidly realized that friendship had no boundaries of age, color gender etc. Thus they develop a much more mature understanding of our social networks at a much earlier age

Posted by: MIke at May 1, 2005 12:31 AM

Rocky:

I read your whole post and you have said nothing not already addressed - well actually you have said nothing but thats neither here or there - howwever, if you will recall you were trying to address my points and drifted off target. Perhaps your name is consistent with the contents of your cranium?

Posted by: MIke at May 1, 2005 12:35 AM

Mike:

Personal attacks are not allowed.

Posted by: Craig Holmes at May 1, 2005 12:37 AM

Phx8

Fairness should be defined as providng equal OPPORTUNITY to achieve 100% of your God Given potential - no matter how humble or noble the cause - it does not mean that everyone will have the same potential. Currently we are trying to make sure everyone graduates and runs the mile at the same time - it just isnt going to happen and it is a trmendous waste of resources - but most importantly - it is a tremedous waste of talented minds

Posted by: MIke at May 1, 2005 12:43 AM

Mike:

Thank you for your post. I think homeschooling is a viable option for some. For others I think it is a poor choice. In our district we work with homeschool programs and have special classes where parents can interact with teachers.

We used to give curriculum to homeschool parents to use. Our District charges now because they wouldn’t return it!!

In addition as any fine school district will tell you homeschooling creates problems as well. When parents decide not to homeschool anymore, students often have uneven success. They may be two years ahead in one subject and two years behind in another. Many of our homeschooled kids end up needing some form of remediation.

I am not for or against homeschooling. Where it works there can be fantastic results. Wow when it doensn’t the results can be pretty poor. There is nothing sacred or terrible about homeschooling. It is just a tool.

Craig

Posted by: Craig Holmes at May 1, 2005 12:46 AM

Hey Craig is this a personal attack??

Mike,

Pal, you need to cut back on the caffine.

Appearently, you only read the portions of my post that would allow you to spew the most bile.

Read the whole post and get back to me.

Posted by: craig at May 1, 2005 12:46 AM

Mike:

I think the ability to enter college is the measuring stick for any educational system.

This is pretty good since only 20% of jobs require a four year degree.

CH

Posted by: Craig Holmes at May 1, 2005 12:51 AM

Craig:

Are there any children in the public school that are two years behind or ahead??

Dont you see that if this presetns a problem that the system is in chaos?/ WHy dont we allow those that are two years ahead to go there - to go as far as they can - why do we arbitrarily group by age - why not by talent (to a certain point) woudln’t this aid in that great goal of the fallacy of diversity?

I do agreee that some homw schoolers fail their children - there was a group of homeschoolers called unschoolers - they taught nothing - they beleived children learned by osmosis - the kids were totally lost

Posted by: MIke at May 1, 2005 12:52 AM

Craig - the entering college discussion certainly takes us into an area of debate. Yes many people enter college these days - but their academic preparedness lags significantly compared to those entering college say 50 years ago - Much of this may simply be that 50 years ago those entering college represented the top 25% of intellect - now those entering college may represent the top 70%. However, this is also why a ‘college’ degree is losing its value. Having taught several college courses at a State SChool I was totally dismayed at the lack of prepartion of the average student. ACtually, I was shocked - I had a long discussion with the students about studying and expectations - when I placed a study schedule on the board of 30 hours a week for all of their subjects they began to laugh.

Posted by: MIke at May 1, 2005 12:58 AM

Mike:

Dont you see that if this presetns a problem that the system is in chaos?/ WHy dont we allow those that are two years ahead to go there - to go as far as they can - why do we arbitrarily group by age - why not by talent (to a certain point) woudln’t this aid in that great goal of the fallacy of diversity?

The system in not in chaos. Public education is organized chaos the way democracy is messy.

In our state we allow for exactly that. We call it running start. You can start college as a junior and get you associates degree and hs diploma at the same time. Works fine most of the time. Some time students are not emotionally ready for the college world. Sometimes they mess up their credits and fail to get either their High School diploma or their AA degree.

In most (not all)instances, I think it is better for students to stay in High School because of the social factors that are gone with high school. It is so important to learn patience and live with people faster and slower than yourself. That is the way the real world is.

Craig

Posted by: Craig Holmes at May 1, 2005 12:58 AM

Craig - the fact that children are graduating from school and cannot read indicates that there are deep and serious problems in the system. The fact that we lag significantly in our science and math skills compared to the rest of the world is a deep and significant problem.

But you know we can socialize so maybe that will make up for it :)

Mike

Posted by: MIke at May 1, 2005 01:05 AM

MIke:

By the way, diversity is no fallacy. It is one of the cornerstones of democracy. I have spend many an hour talking to minority professionals encouraging them to get their teaching certificate.

All education doesn’t show up on a test score. I think it is central to a quality education for students to have an entire banquet table of human thought. The greater the diversity, the more depth an educational experience. I only wish we could provide more.

When I was President of our School Board, I went so far as to “hunt down” individual minority teachers and point blank explain to them in clear terms exactly why they were absolutely essential to the future of our democracy, and if the ever had a problem of any kind because of their race or creed, they could come to me and I would personally see to it that the issue was resolved.

I cannot stress to you how central it is to our Democracy to have diversity modeled to our children in public education. It is what adds wisdom to test scores and allows apprpiate meaning so our students can be socially successful as they proceed through life. It is our hope for a better future for our children, that maybe they will be able to solve some of the deeply intrenched problems that our generation has been unable to solve.

Diversity is a well I can go down with no limits, because I always find that it enriches children’s lives. There is something magical that happens in a child’s eyes when they see someone from their onw race or background who is successful, or then they “connect” with an adult from a different race or background and they achieve understanding. It fills me with hope to watch these things happen with my own eyes.

Craig

Posted by: Craig Holmes at May 1, 2005 01:07 AM

Craig:

I am always suspicious when people use terms that are not specific - ‘organized chaos’ - ‘sort of pregnant’ these are dichotomies used to foil scientific evaluation of a system - the need to foil evaluation is usually based upon the fact that no one actually wants to find out what is really happening.

Posted by: MIke at May 1, 2005 01:08 AM

Mike:

Craig - the fact that children are graduating from school and cannot read indicates that there are deep and serious problems in the system. The fact that we lag significantly in our science and math skills compared to the rest of the world is a deep and significant problem.

You are believing myths. You might read my post I wrote earlier tonight. These myths have been their since at least the 50’s with Spunick.

I would challenge you to descibe why our nation has experience the level of properity is has for the last 50 years while this charge of ineptness has been constantly there. There has never been a time in over 50 years that some have said our educational system is bankrupt, and yet we lead the world in productivity gains of our workers.

Where is the evidence in industry of our failed educational system? If you want to look for something of this sort, look for an economy like North Korea. Don’t talk about the greatest country on the planet, with the greatest workforce the world has ever seen, and complain about it’s failed educational system because you can’t. You cannot have a great nation without a great educational system, it just is impossible.

So I would challenge you to describe for me how our nation could possibly exist at it’s current level with a failed pubic education system.

Craig

Posted by: Craig Holmes at May 1, 2005 01:13 AM

Mike:

I am always suspicious when people use terms that are not specific - ‘organized chaos’ - ‘sort of pregnant’ these are dichotomies used to foil scientific evaluation of a system - the need to foil evaluation is usually based upon the fact that no one actually wants to find out what is really happening.

Organized chaos is an affectionate term I use to describe Public education because it is alive and wonderful. When I was on a school board it was astonishing to me that 11,000 students left their homes each day, made it to classes, learned and returned home safety. It simply amazes me how the whole things works, and yet it does, and very well.

I love to walk down the halls and listen to the teachers, and see the kids progressing as they are able. It is a great institution.

Craig

Posted by: Craig Holmes at May 1, 2005 01:17 AM

Craig -

You are entirely wrong on the diverstiy issue - you like many who have graduated from our instituitons of higher indoctrination have bitten hook, line and sinker failing to adequately think the problem through yourself.

When my youngest was in second grade we went to meet the teacher night (we stopped home schooling - my wife had to go back to work to pay the taxes to pay the teachers salaries for working 180 days a year)

The teacher was a bubbling young lady freshly minted from the uniform mold of diversity. She instructed us as to how she was going to teach all the children about diversity - I listend politely - later that year we received the report card and indeed ther was a grade for diversity understanding - I called my 2nd grader over and aasked him if he knew what diversity was - he thought about it a while and told me it was like multiplication only different :)

See the fact of the matter is you dont need to teach diversity - despite the fact that we are geneticallyy 99.999% the same we have an uncanny abiltiy to recognize differences - the Serbs and Croats see it - the Kmer Rouge and the Loyalists saw it, the protestatns and Catholics see it - yet to everyone else on the outrside - you dont see it - My experience has been that we even come to tell the difference between identical twins - no u dont need to teach diveristy - it comes automatically - what we do need to teach is commonality - that we all hope and suffer the same - that we have the same dreams and wishes - that we all have the same fears - that in times of war the only horror is our own reflection - it is in this understanding of commonality that we will find the peace that humankind seeks - not in teaching diversity.

I tried to explaint this to my sister-in -law - She only looked at me with disdain - afer all she had a right to do this - she studied sociaology you know. She haughtily announced ‘that will never happen!’
I asked why - ‘because … take an African American person - you will always see they are black!”

‘Oh I said - but your hair is red”
“What does that have to do with anything!’ she said

‘Exactly’ was my only answer

I could go on and on about this but we digress

Mike

Posted by: MIke at May 1, 2005 01:24 AM

The success of the US is based upon the entrepenurial system that allows inventors to move inventions from ideas to products. For example the Soviet Union had science that was as good as ours - yet the standard of livign was very poor - is this becaue or due to our education system - hardly - it has everything to do with capitalism and entrepenurship. Many of the worlds greatest inventions were made by individuasl with no formal education - which of course takes us down a whole other path.

AS to numbers I would have to research them but there are plenty of studies which show us to be significantly lagging in science and math - yes we can live off of our past (and the brain drain) for a time - but if we dont excel in these areas it will eventually come back to bite us

Mike

Posted by: MIke at May 1, 2005 01:31 AM

Craig :

It was great talking to you but its 1 AM and since I am not a teacher I have to work tomorrow (SUnday).

God Bless and lets keep working together to solve our problems!!

PS. The info on diversity is from a book I wrote

Posted by: MIke at May 1, 2005 01:33 AM

Teachers make too much money?

My first response to this is just how much less should we make? 20% less? 30% less? Certainly if you would like to see any kind of measurable difference in your tax payments then you’d need to make substantial cuts in salaries. But do you really think you could get competent people to earn bachelor’s and master’s degrees, work without pay for half a year as student teachers, and take on a job that is under greater scrutiny and pressure than it has ever been for such wages? If you can find people to become teachers, just what caliber of people would you expect to get?

What’s that? You don’t think salaries should be cut by quite so much? Perhaps just a few percentage points, maybe hold off on raises for a few years? Now we see where the real BS comes in. If this is your point of view, just how did you do this analysis? Where is the data that quantifies the precise value of teacher and shows that current salaries are x% above where they should be? The sad truth is that people complain about teacher’s salaries not because they are too high but because they are an easy target.

Before I became a teacher I worked for an ad agency and made $100,000/year (after less than 10 years in the business). Who paid my salary? You did. Every time you bought one of my clients’ products (and I’ll guarantee that 75% of you reading this have at least one in your house). The biggest chunk of any consumer brand’s expenses is marketing and that cost is passed directly on to you, Mr. Consumer. Why didn’t you complain about my salary then? Because my bosses (some of whom were making half a million/ year) would have laughed at you. I don’t mean to sound as mocking and sarcastic as it appears, this is just human nature – to focus on the things we may actually be able to impact.

But we need to keep in mind that you get what you pay for. You cannot complain that there aren’t enough good teachers out there at the same time that you insist that teachers should make less money. If we want teachers who are dedicated, highly skilled professionals (and I’ll readily admit some are not but I believe most already are) then we as a society need to make sure that we respect teachers, part of which is paying them well.

Posted by: Rob at May 1, 2005 02:22 AM

Privatize. Privatize. Privatize.

What other essential service should the government be involved in holding a monopoly on?

Without food we will all starve! How can we trust private enterprise to make sure there is a steady supply of food for all of us to eat? Surely the market is too fragile and fickle to be able to educate, I mean, provide food for everyone needing to eat.

Surely it’s better to put all supermarkets and food distribution under the supervision of energetic government employees and guarantee a partial education… I mean, some government butter and cheese for everyone rather than allow the untrustworthy private sector to charge people for it. Some people just won’t be able to afford food otherwise.

I know it’s a radical thought but what is education? I mean is it a scarce resource? Like the airwaves are supposed to be? Such that the government must own it and provide it to us only with their permission?

Is it possible that education is one of those things whose supply is actually inexhaustible? Unless of course you basically control the market.

But then I’m forgetting that if it’s a government monopoly it’s good. Sorry, my bad.

Posted by: ericsimonson at May 1, 2005 02:50 AM

There is a whole lot of lack of factual information trotted out in the comments to this article. Nathan is right, our schools are failing. But, not in the way he describes. And the idea that each state should be responsible for their preparing their students for the globalized marketplace speaks volumes of the lack of information which faces the US and its next generations of adults. Our nation will literally succeed or fall on the education we provide our students.

Someone above spoke of an outdated concept that our universities are the best in the world attracting students from all over the world. That was true, it is rapidly becoming less with each year. The fact is the US is starting to run into problems importing brain power from China, India and elsewhere. We are not producing enough of our own, and the universities of other nations are in fact producing some of the highest caliber engineers, designers, horizontal market thinkers and developers in the world, and we can’t import them fast enough. And it is going to get a whole lot worse.

Because the “World is going flat” as Thomas Friedman writes, the brain power overseas is realizing they don’t need to, nor do they want to leave their families and cultures to profit in the US. Their education is in such demand in the EU, S. America, Australia, China, and India and the internet and instant communication allows them to work in China without ever leaving Taiwan, Malaysia, S. Korea, or wherever.

The US had better get a national standard going that truly does compete with Japan’s, India’s, and increasingly China’s schools, or the flattening of the world economic platform is going to leave the US and its people with table scraps.

GM took a huge profit loss this last quarter due to a complete lack of understanding of current markets, needs and demands, as well as their archaic PT Barnum belief that the right marketing and advertising can produce a profit from SUV’s in a time of rising fuel costs. And while GM continues to lose marketshare to Hundai, Honda, Toyota, and others, we keep cranking out inferior MBA’s with outdated and ineffective understanding of where globalization is going and how it is getting there without us.

Before anymore spout about values and religious training in our schools, I strongly suggest reading Thomas L. Friedman’s book “The World is Flat” in order to gain an understanding that such education is as out of step with what the new world will regard as qualified education, as Spanish Conquistadors who proved the physical world wasn’t flat despite all efforts to the contrary by the Church.

The economic globalized marketplace is flattening and the vertical hierarchies and top down management paradigms of American culture are becoming threatened by these new technologies: e.g. instant communications from retailer in Great Britain to parts manufacturer in China to assemblers in Malaysia, and to market pollsters and new product designers in Japan.

Almost our entire educational system is decades behind in appreciating and training young people for the new paradigm, and our government and social policy are even more decades behind. To have a viable willing workforce in 20 years requires portable retirement and pension plans, safety nets that will keep elderly in the work force voluntarily, and portable health care that counterracts the growing sense in America that working for a living isn’t worth the effort.

The US is ever more focused on the top of the ladder in companies and corporations, utterly failing to realize that global competitiveness in the new paradigm absolutely requires the focus and benefits and rewards of successful ventures to be directed to the work force at the bottom of the ladder. That is where the competitive advantage will be achieved, which China, India, and other places already are beginning to understand and capitalize on but, the US does not even comprehend.

I absolutely agree with Pres. Bush that national educational standards are essential to our future competitiveness in the world marketplace. Congress and state governors, and community leaders had better jump on this bandwagon too if they don’t want to see the US drop off the edge of the “new flat world”.

Posted by: David R. Remer at May 1, 2005 05:03 AM

I only had a chance to scan the previous posts, but I think I agree with Craig. Our public school system isn’t the failure that many on both sides are making it out to be.

On the other hand, I do believe there needs to be a readjustment of the teacher/administrator ratio.

Money absolutely does make a difference in the quality of education. Obviously, the more efficiently it’s being used, the better. Forget the vouchers. Mend it, don’t end it.

Posted by: American Pundit at May 1, 2005 05:46 AM

AP,

You live in SE Asia.

What is the student/teacher ratio in the schools there?

Mike,

I think you need to move to a different school district.
What you don’t seem to understand is that this a large country, and schools aren’t the same everywhere.
Apparently you have a problem with your district.
Well fix it!
You paid for it. You might as well have a district that works.
I don’t know how things are in your city, but where I come from the school boards are elected. Do your job as a parent and vote them out of office.

You have been talking in absolutes. Here’s one for you. Nothing is the same everywhere, or for everybody.

Posted by: Rocky at May 1, 2005 08:22 AM

Rocky -

you just dont have the capacity to post info on a blog- yes I am involved in my school board - all the districts within 3 - 400 miles have a similar situation here - the situation is controlled by the teachers union - as it is nationally and what I have found is one person cannot change them (ask the president)

Mike

Posted by: Mike at May 1, 2005 08:55 AM

Mike,

Let me get this straight.

All teachers are bad.
The teachers union is responsible for the state of the country.
Nothing can be done.
I don’t have the mental capacity to post on this blog.
You are right and everyone else is wrong.

Does that about wrap it up?

Posted by: Rocky at May 1, 2005 09:14 AM

David:

your comments are well taken and I agree - some of the major developments of the US througout the 1900’s were a result not only of brain drain but of great technicians from Europe - we rode on that wave for awhile and perhaps can ride on the brain drain from India and China for awhile longer - but that is changing rapidly.

I do disagree with your statement on religous education. Hitler had the best scientists in the world - yet I would not want to live under his rule - Wihtout getting into a lengthy discusion about religion (upon which I have written extensively) suffice it to say that for the vast majority of us our morals come from our religion, without religion many will not have moral training (yes you can be moral without religion but my experience has been that most parents in the US outside of a religous basis dont concsiously apply moral training to their children - the kids get it from MTV when they arrive at home with no one to supervise them )

This moral training is extremely important to the success of our society and if you beleive that a nation can be successful without a sound moral basis then I have to disagree. Lets examine those nations that have chosen to take religion out of their countries - Stalin, Lenin, Mao and Hitler - to name a few - in all of these examples the dignity of the individual was ultimately most heinously destroyed. WHy? because if you remove religion and believe that man and only man can grant you your dignity then most assuredly man will take it from you.

MIke

Posted by: Mike at May 1, 2005 09:17 AM

Rocky

No Rocky - once again you either lack the capacity to analyze what is being said or you don’t wish to specifically debate the points being presented

Lets look at your statements:

1.) All teachers are bad -

As stated in my first post - my children have had some very good teachers

2.) Teachers Union is responsible for the state of the country -

No just the state of education

3.) Nothing can be done

Yes there are some things that can be done -privatization would be wonderful but that can’t be done until the union is taken on and up to this time not even the president of the US has been able to take that problem on - but maybe you could Rocky

4.) Rocky doesnt have the capacity to post on this blog

I agree

5.) I am right and everyone else is wrong.

Since I agreed with you on statement number four this refutes statment number 5.

Rocky - should I charge you for this education in logic - or did u get that in the US public edcuation system?

Mike

Posted by: Mike at May 1, 2005 09:31 AM

Mike,

Please help me out here.

Do you actually read what you write before you post?

There is no debate here, because the only valid opinion is yours.

Posted by: Rocky at May 1, 2005 09:50 AM

AP, You live in SE Asia. What is the student/teacher ratio in the schools there?

Rocky, I think that depends on what grade you’re in. My kid’s in pre-school here in Singapore and it’s 4-to-1.

I know that in my sister’s kid’s elementary school in Georgia, they’re testing out Singapore’s teaching system. It’s pretty well respected around the world.

BTW, Mike, I think the local school boards have a lot to do with the state of education in the US today - whatever anyone thinks that is.

Here’s the Singapore Ministry of Education website. Sorry I don’t have time to track down the stats right now. Sleepy time. :)

Posted by: American Pundit at May 1, 2005 09:50 AM

AP,

That dateline is a bitch.

Posted by: Rocky at May 1, 2005 09:52 AM

Rocky -

I guess all that I can do is offer you up the ff from Shakespeare

A wise man needs no advice and a fool wont listen

Yes we can debate but debating is about presenting your point - how do you present your point without indicating then that you believe in such ?? If I present a point your only response is that I think I am right - well of course - why else would I present it - because I think I am wrong!?

This is like arguing with my teenagers there is no logic involved here - if you post something in the future worth responding too I will but until then - your just spinning your tires and making a lot of noise but getting nowhere fast.

In the meantime I will give you a riddle to work on to keep you occupied -

Do you walk to school or carry a lunch?

Mike

Posted by: Mike at May 1, 2005 10:05 AM

David:

Standards are only a part of education. It is nieve and simpistic to put a hat on one part of what makes students successful.

My own child is a pretty good example. My kids are very bright and test well. One of my sons ON THE SAME DAY got a letter from the state and our Sup of congratulations for passing all parts of the standardized test, and got grounded by me for having a “D” in a class for not turning in his homework.

Learning styles are a spectrum with each student having their own combination needed to learn at peak efficiency. Standardized tests choose a narrow band of learning styles and demand everyone teach to that style. When carried to far, it becomes a form of intellectual bigotry.

In our state we have had standardized testing for sometime through what we call our “WASL”. It has improved our teaching greatly. I am very proud of Washington State and what it has accomplished.

Passing this test is now required for graduation.
The problem now is the next steps. Higher end kids have no problems. They can fill their schedules with electives of anykind and take the test and have a pretty normal high school experience.

The lower end or average kids may have to give up electives in order to focus on the WASL. With NCLB we have to collapse curriculum into the basics that are tested.

In a practical world this means fewer classes like shop, auto mechanics. In addition classes like band, or drama are only for the higher achieving kids.

I think this is wrong because there is so much to learn in these classes. Sometimes this is what keeps kids in school at all. I am very concerned particularly for the average and below, that we will improve their ability to compute but not to think.

The great mission of Public Education is not just test scores. It is also to help students to be able to vote with intelligence. Electives bring a richness to a students education. But they could go away, only for the students who struggle on tests.

I think after some time we are going to find a couple of things that are going to interest researchers.

First. Some students that do not do well on tests are going to do great at life. They are intelligent, but just not in a way we are testing.

Second. Some students will do great on the tests, and struggle at life. That is because these students have mastered “test talk” and can get by, but they have not a clue on how to communicate in the real world.

The answer to me is balance. I believe it standardized tests within a portfolio of other means of examining kids. I also believe in improving public education. I think we need to go slower than we are so that we do not “throw the baby out with the bathwater”.

Testing is also great for measuring how schools are doing and teaching. It is better to hold the schools accountable and the school boards, without punishing the kids.

Craig

Posted by: Craig Holmes at May 1, 2005 10:14 AM

Many posts talk about the success stories in public education and that is great. Unfortunately, you do not address the fact that we have a large number of high school dropouts, students who graduate from high school and cannot read, and others who lack basic math skills. Those who are successful are likely that way because they took what they could get and ran with it. There are problems in our public school system and if you would like to put your head in the sand and ignore it, fine. I am going to work to introduce competition and allow people choice when they send their children to public school.

Posted by: Nathan Melton at May 1, 2005 10:17 AM

“Yes we can debate but debating is about presenting your point - how do you present your point without indicating then that you believe in such ?? If I present a point your only response is that I think I am right - well of course - why else would I present it - because I think I am wrong!?”

Mike,

The problem is that YOU belive that YOU are the only one here that IS right!
You slam me for what you see as my lack of mental accuity and then post the twaddle that you accept as truth.
You cite no facts to back up your wild claims.

“It is not because the truth is too difficult to see that we make mistakes… we make mistakes because the easiest and most comfortable course for us is to seek insight where it accords with our emotions - especially selfish ones.”
Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Now, if you had bothered to read my first post on this thread you would know that I went to a private Catholic school. I spent 10.5 years of my life (from ‘57 to 69’). I had to take a college entrance exam to attend Catholic high school, which I passed.

So, when you were teaching at the state college, were you part of the solution or the problem.

Posted by: Rocky at May 1, 2005 10:43 AM

There is the Republican Solution for these Dropouts and Deadbeats. Even as we speak hundreds of Army Recruiters are scouring the country looking for these poor souls. Recruiters will help you. Just now I read a news article about Recruiters who assisted in getting fake Diplomas and Transcripts. They even arranged to help a Drug User buy drugs to purge the Pot from his system. These Patriots are working HARD to spread FREEDOM.

The Reserves are paying $10,000 just as a bonus. Hazard Pay and Combat Pay are even higher!!!

Do the Moral Thing. Send your Kids to the Army Today!!!

Posted by: Aldous at May 1, 2005 10:49 AM

Eric writes:

“Privatize. Privatize. Privatize…Is it possible that education is one of those things whose supply is actually inexhaustible? Unless of course you basically control the market. But then I’m forgetting that if it’s a government monopoly it’s good. Sorry, my bad.”

That’s not just radical, it’s plain stupid. Education is not a government monopoly - you can start your own school, just like you can build your own roads. The reason for government involvement in education is that it’s a public good - i.e., it’s valuable to all of us to have an educated workforce and informed citizenry - valuable beyond whatever value the individual gets from his education.

Public good. It’s an important concept, you should read up on it.

Posted by: William Cohen at May 1, 2005 10:53 AM

“Unfortunately, you do not address the fact that we have a large number of high school dropouts, students who graduate from high school and cannot read, and others who lack basic math skills.”

Nathan,

Students don’t learn by osmosis, an effort on their part is nescessary. Parents need to instill a yearning for knowledge from an early age. Reading skills begin at home, all other subjects are dependent on this.
You can’t blame teachers for the “numbers of dropouts”, if the child isn’t prepared to learn.

Posted by: Rocky at May 1, 2005 11:14 AM

Let’s not be extreme on either side. Fortunately, a mixed solution is the best all around. Consider which parts of our educational system work best and which worst.

The American elementary and secondary school system is in trouble. Kids in many other countries, even those where they spend a lot less money, often do better than their American counterparts. On the other hand, the American university system is the best in the world. (I don’t like the politically correct environments, but even with these problems it is still the best) This includes private and public universities. Public universities such as UC- Berkeley, the University of Virginia or North Carolina are on par or with the best in the world.

The reason is choice and competition. Administrators at Berkeley or UVA know that there competition is not only other state universities. They have to be sharp because people have alternatives. You can see how well this works even in public school systems in well educated neighborhoods. There is no correlation between money spent per pupil and outcomes, but there is a very strong correlation between parent involvement and competency and outcomes. Educated people have alternatives.

We should give to the poor what the wealthy have always had – school choice. The District of Columbia spends nearly $10,000 per pupil (which is much more than neighboring Montgomery Co MD or Fairfax Co VA, which have excellent schools) and produces abysmal results. I am sure parents could get more for that $10,000. BUT they wouldn’t have to. When school officials and teachers unions feel the competition, they get their act together.

That is the secret. Strong public institutions require the potential of private competition. But once you have the possibility, you often don’t have to use it.

Posted by: jack at May 1, 2005 11:34 AM

Jack,

Who do we give those vouchers to?
Certainly not just the best and the brightest. I went to a private school, not because my parents were wealthy, but because they made the effort to assure that I could. I would add that my brother and two sisters also attended the same schools.
Perhaps the difference is that all in my family read regularly, and have since we were very young.
My parents were also active in our education (my mother was the school nurse).
No one said that being a parent was easy, or that the choices were easy.
You can’t plop a young child in front of the TV, and expect them to learn when they get to school.
This thread has mostly been an indictment on the public school system and it’s teachers, yet I would submit that most of the posters are products of that same system, and most seem capable of cognizant thought.
The system may have problems, but I place full blame on the parents that haven’t prepared their children to learn.

Posted by: Rocky at May 1, 2005 11:55 AM

BTW, I might add that vouchers won’t solve that problem.

Posted by: Rocky at May 1, 2005 11:58 AM

Rocky,

“The system may have problems, but I place full blame on the parents that haven’t pre