Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

Nathan,
“Abortion for convenience should not be an option.”

Who decides what level of convenience is acceptable or unacceptable?

How would you apply this to Downs Syndrome? It can be detected very early in a pregnancy. Many such pregnancies result in miscarriage, & a significant percentage of Downs Syndrome babies die shortly after birth. Those who survive exhibit anywhere from mild retardation to severe retardation. Severe retardation is truly awful, and usually requires institutionalization. In addition, most suffer severe medical problems. Bringing a Downs Syndrome fetus to birth will, at best, be ruiniously expensive in terms of medical care & full-time caretaking.

If a woman voluntarily conceives, & it’s Downs, what then? Would you presume to go beyond a moral stand to a legal one, and demand the woman deliver a Downs baby?

I have a brother who has downs syndrome. He is the happiest person I have ever met. If you ask him what is downs syndrome, he will reply everytime, that “downs syndrome is where you love everybody, and never hurt nobody!” And he is right. He loves everyone. they call them special people, and that term fits well, because he is happier than 99% out there and very special. Now, to the abortion realm, my basic assertion is why should we punish someone for something that is not their fault? Casual sex, rape, incest, what ever the situation. The baby is innocent and should not be punished by being put to death for something that is not his/her fault. All human life deserves a chance, that what the founding fathers knew.

Either you have sex and deal with it or you keep your pants on. Hopefully you’re married at the time of conception. Let’s stop bringing up welfare babies.

To bring “what ifs” into this can very quickly spiral down into the absurd. They baby should be born, regardless. There is a plan for each baby developing in a womb. We couldn’t possibly know the plan. It’s disgusting to pick and choose to fit your current lifestyle or any other reason one may dream up.

Dog,
I appreciate you’re citing your brother as an example. He’s undoubtedly a blessing. It’s what makes arguing this issue on an abstract level so difficult, because it’s not really abstract at all. Please understand I’m trying to be sensitive & considerate, and attempting to keep this at a distance, and arguing from principle.

Some people afflicted with Downs lead fulfilling lives. These people represent a small percentage. They beat the odds, and like your brother, it does in fact happen. But if a woman knows from an amniocentesis, early in the pregnancy, that Downs Syndrome is present, and she knows the statistics about miscarriage, death within the first few days, etc., what then? You & me & Nathan might all offer the same advice on a personal basis, as to whether to go through with a pregnancy. The example cited by Nathan involving triplets is a fairly easy call.

But are we comfortable making the decision for others when the issue is more complex than the example about the triplets? Is it appropriate as a society, through the power of government, to make the call for others on a legal basis?

I’d argue that when it comes to intensely personal and potentially painful issues, government & society should not make the call. Sometimes there are no good choices when it comes to matters of life & death. I’d have to argue for ‘choice,’ for families making these difficult decisions, and for keeping government out of the process. Some will choose one way, some another; but it’s a matter for the family, for a husband & wife, not the federal government.

Does anyone here seriously belive that most of the women that have had abortions are using them as a means of birth control?

Rocky, I’m with you. Every woman I’ve ever heard talk about abortion said it was the most emotionally painful and awful experience they’ve ever had. Many regret it years later.

Outlawing abortion is not the answer. There are legitimate circumstances under which it’s necessary. The answer is counseling, education, access to birth control, and other options that make most abortions unnecessary.

The crazy part is, many well-meaning people who oppose abortion also oppose programs that help women in a position where choosing an abortion is the least worst option.

Ultimately I am against abortion. But in this age of medical technology, where we can detect diseases and malformations in the womb, abortion seems like a viable alternative to a life of suffering, for both the parents and the child.

In the long run, I’m an American. I savor freedom. I enjoy freedom. I am practicing freedom right now by posting on this left-right-center blog. Who is any one person to deny others the right to enjoy freedom? Anti-abortionists make me sicker than Planned Parenthood.

And if every life deserves a chance to live, then what is any body really doing about the starving children of Africa? What about the kids in sweatshops making your clothes in Vietnam? These people aren’t living. If you want to take a stand against something, there’s your something.

AP

I agree with you and with President Clinton who said that abortion should be safe, legal and rare.

I would also give the ultimate decision to the woman involved, because I can’t think of a better place to locate it.

However, I don’t believe it should be a decision a woman is allowed to make alone. She should at least consult family and in most cases the child’s father. I know there are extreme cases where this might be unwise, but the fact that they might get mad at her and try to talk her out of it is not among those cases.

I told my daughter that if she got pregnant, I would support her decision to have the baby financially and morally. I would also, regretfully, support her informed decision to have an abortion.

I believe that 90% of the American people feel that abortion is a bad thing and should be restricted, but not outlawed. Fridge groups on both ends are driving the debate, however. On the one hand you have the abortion never folks and on the other abortion as any other medical procedure crowd. Both are wrong.

I agree with Nathen.

The best birthcontrol is the common aspirin, you hold it between your knees.

New here. At last, reasonable comments mostly acknowledging the huge gray areas there are in human decision-making. I, also, agree with President Clinton that abortion should be “safe, legal, and rare.”
There are circumstances under which it is aggravated cruelty to ask a girl or woman to bring a pregnancy to term—such as when a fetus is known to have no brain and will die shortly after birth anyway, or when a girl has been raped—say, by her father.
On the other hand, successive abortions by the careless are abhorrent and should be difficult to get.
Society has an interest in the welfare of both mother and child—a balance must be struck overall. Sometimes, regrettably, the balance must tip in favor of one or the other. But that overtipping—in favor of either the mother or the child—should never be institutionalized. We must not allow religious terrorists to intrude into the personal and difficult decisions around childbirth.

John,

“There is a plan for each baby developing in a womb. We couldn’t possibly know the plan. It’s disgusting to pick and choose to fit your current lifestyle or any other reason one may dream up.”

True. But, if you’re like me, you don’t see that cluster of cells as a human (yet). Many Christians are indignant about the “murder” of innocent “babies”, but it is a victimless crime. To look at it from a practical point of view, do you really think a blastocyst is going to care whether it’s aborted or not? It’s rather like euthanasia, the only unhappy people aren’t even affected and are arguing merely from a moral standpoint.

Everyone in this blog that is with the whole “Safe, Legal and Rare” philosophy is missing the forest for the tress. It’s like walking in to the Sistine Chapel and looking at the floor. Life does begin at conception. Otherwise, when else would it start? At what other exact moment can you say life actually begins?

There is also no gray area here. A life is a life is a life is a life and ought to be treated as such. As the late pope knew, all human life has dignity, regardless of whether or not it’s born, whether or not it has Downs Syndrome, or whether or not its diseased and dying.

And yes, Zeek, we indignant Christians are arguing from merely a moral standpoint. Excuse us for following the teachings of our leader, Jesus Christ, who seemed to do that from time to time during his tenure on Earth.

“Life does begin at conception. Otherwise, when else would it start? At what other exact moment can you say life actually begins? There is also no gray area here. A life is a life is a life is a life…”

Maybe a newly fertilized egg, despite having no brain or nervous system, is a human life, just as important as an adult human like, say, Rick Santorum. But can you possibly know that, Bill?

One problem is, while there may be no gray, it sure doesn’t full that way. As a sample question, if you were in a fertility clinic and you had a choice between saving aPetri dish with 10 fertilized eggs and one live, healthy, 2 year-old kid, which one would you choose?

I find it offensive that so much effort is made for a fetus while so little is given to the children. Abused children and unprepared parents are barely helped by overworked social workers who are not adequately funded. Remember Jeb “Pro-Life” Bush and the disappearing orphans? Where is the outrage over them?

There is a comment in here that suggests abortion is not a means of birth control. Well it sure is a good replacement for self control. Come on if it isn’t birth control what is it. People in favor of abortion just blow my mind. This pretense of sensitivity toward woman-kind. I am female and fully recognize my responsibility as such. This movement that wants men to face up to their responsibility etc. is wonderful. But the truth is, it is just plain our responsibility as women. We know from the onset, who will carry the baby, who will ultimately be responsible for everything concerning the raising of that child. So doesn’t it make sense to you that, we then should be responsible for controling our sex lives to therefore control whether we creat a life or not. All of this is just another example of people’s sense of entitlement. Entitle to have everything in our little world fixed to make our lives just the way we want them. Who cares if it kills someone defenseless, that is totally dependent on them for caring for their life. We would next make it possible for that woman to pull the plug on her elderly parents. When it gets to the point they need her for their continued existance. I just have no room in my mind for this kind of thing. It all boils down to personal responsibility. We should all be taught growing up that our needs are important but not more important than the next guys, AND not to do things we are not willing to face the consequences for. That we are responsible for each and every thing we do. Like throwing a ball into a window. We can be sorry and that is wonderful, the moment we let it go out of our hand, but no matter what a window is broken. We all need to learn from earliest childhood, things cannot always be the way we want and we are responsible for all the things we do, whether it is to our liking or not. Step up to the plate and do the right thing, not the thing that fits best into your perfect little life.

And with babies, all you have to do is give them their life. Someone else will be happy to take over from there. But to these women….oh

One of the things my parents always said when I was growing up - and I thank God for it - is that right is alway right and wrong is always wrong. Their are not shades of gray. Or degrees. That Good and Evil, and Right and Wrong are always the same. The degree part is relevant only is how easy it is to do the right or wrong thing. That is where a person’s true character comes into play. It is the absolute truth, whether we like it or not.

Sue,

“So doesn’t it make sense to you that, we then should be responsible for controling our sex lives to therefore control whether we creat a life or not.”

What you’re saying about abortion doesn’t hold true for women who are raped. Also, I think it would be a good thing to point out that regardless of whether or not you outlaw abortions they will still happen, just not legally (or for that matter, safely).

Also, you say that “good is good, and evil is evil.” I think there are instances where this is not true. For instance, killing another person is evil right? What if you kill one person to save the lives of several? How could that be considered entirely good or entirely evil? How do you even begin defining the “evil” choice in this situation? Maybe it’s easier to simplify things, but sometimes the world is more complicated than all that.

And yes, Zeek, we indignant Christians are arguing from merely a moral standpoint. Excuse us for following the teachings of our leader, Jesus Christ, who seemed to do that from time to time during his tenure on Earth.

The problem, Bill, is that by doing so you are invalidating your argument to the many non-christians who do not believe as you do. You are also arguing a legal case on religious reasons, which in this country is not how we do things.

It’s just like my home state of Indiana. We can’t sign a contract or purchase alcohol on Sunday. Why? Simply because the religious members of the society have forced the legislature to make their religous views the LAW, making me follow them even though I don’t believe in them.

Now, the fact of the matter is that life does begin at conception. By trying to say that it doesn’t all you are doing is deluding yourself into supporting the actions to end that life without having to go through the niggling concerns about it being a live human. What this does, though, is cause many to actually agree with that belief and then they can see abortion for just that, a simple medical procedure that has no ill results.

Abortion is the termination of a human life. It is not ‘murder’ because it is legal and there are legal definitions for murder that do not qualify here. But it should also be done only when the cost of delivering the child outweigh the knowledge that it is a human life you are ending. At the only person who can determine that is the woman and man involved, and ultimately the woman has to determine for herself if the man should have any say based on her knowledge of the situation.

No other alternative method is reasonable.

Abortion, a never ending circle of words. I do not look at it as murder. It isnt like you are emotionally attached to the infant. They cannot cry, walk, talk, express any form of emotion until they are born. I know the liberal comeback, “how can you make a decission about killing a child when you where once in the situation of the infant?” or “you wouldnt be able to make these deccions if your parents had done it to you”.
I dont like to take our rights away. Taking the right to have an abortion away, just as taking the right to own a gun, or resticting children the right to wear a shirt with the confederate flag on it to school, is slowly taking our freedom away. The united states, land of the FREE, some time will not be the land of the free if they continue to try taking rights away.

Nik,
There is a difference between an infant and an embryo. That difference is, killing an embryo is legal. Killing an infant will get you a new home, a new job, and new friends (jail time). Infants are not capable of speech, mobility, and the expression of a wide range of emotions for several months or in some cases, years after birth. Does that make it acceptable to kill a 3 month old baby just because the parents have not bonded with it emotionally? Of course not.

Wow, I am shocked although I know that I really shouldn’t be. Why is it always specifically the fault of women that they get pregnant in the first place. When do men take responsibility in all of this? Unless something has VERY recently changed I thought it takes two people. What happens to the babies that a woman may choose to have and give up for adoption and those children don’t get adopted? OR the women who choose to keep their babies? Are all of you truely prepared to help raise them? Just curious…maybe one day the entire human race can live their lives to the high moral standards that I’m sure anti abortionists live theirs. God Bless us all

William Cohen made a good point.

If a building is on fire and we have the option of saving one toddler or a dozen embryos, what do we do? The person who chose to save the embryos would be justifiably vilified and properly charged criminally. That shows what we really believe.

We shouldn’t pretend to believe in our rhetoric what we don’t believe in our hearts.

I hope that none of us actually believes an embryo is equal to a baby. Just like I hope that even the most radical PETA person doesn’t really believe a baby monkey is the equal to a baby human no matter what the rhetoric.

Abortion is a very serious issue. If both extremes would give up their heated rhetoric, we could deal with it in the serious manner it deserves. Instead, the extremist get to posture and indulge themselves knowing that it is all sound and fury without significance.

Jenn,

“Does that make it acceptable to kill a 3 month old baby just because the parents have not bonded with it emotionally? Of course not.”

That’s because that baby is undeniably a living, breathing human being. A blastocyst, while living, cannot be classified as a human being.

I would like to ask those of you who support abortion, to ask someone who has been adopted if they would have rather been aborted. There are many couples who are looking to adopt a new born. Why do we give people the right to abort when there are so many people who want that baby. I know that having a child is difficult, but that is the consequence you face when you take the responsibility of having sex, safe or not.

To All
Killing a living being is murder. Some judges in our court system have placated those with questionable moral standards and have called it legal. An earlier posting suggested that because that Hoosier disagreed with the Sunday blue law concerning alcohol, that that person should violate it. There were other hypothetical questions concerning petri dishes, rape, etc. 48 milliion murders does not justify any argument concerning killing a being with life in the womb. Mensa a few years back said tht the bottom 2% should be terminated because they are not useful to society. Carring that postition further, when they finally reach the level that after all those 2% termiinations are done and only Mensa is left, then it gets quite serious that we would then have to kill some Mensa members. The fact is that after 16 days the newly formed youngster has a heart beat and at 29 days the youngster can feel pain. Nobody is born perfect, so whether a non-perfect one is brought forth is not even an argument. We all are born with the right to “LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS”

Bill,

God Bless You for following Jesus’ teachings.

“The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.”

-Matthew 26:24

I take it that Jesus would have supported, abortion sometimes atleast and it didn’t have to involve incest, rape, pedophilia, a retarded fetus, or an at-risk mother. You could be a backstabber and Jesus would support abortion. If you can spin whatever you want in the Bible, why can’t I?

Jack,
You make a valid point. The extremes are controling abortion. I think most moderates oppose abortion but realize that it is a necessary evil.

On my stance with abortion. I have a lot more things to worry about in my life except a fetus that will probably end up as a criminal anyway or a dead mother at birth. When the mother/father/both of the parents don’t love their child, the likelihood of becoming a career criminal for the child increases.
If the mother is sick, the logistics are even more retarded. What if she dies? Is the First Baptist Church going to adopt that child? I didn’t think so. Are the pro-life groups going to lobby for Congress to push for free healthcare for children under the age of 16? I didn’t think so. Keep in mind that I am refering to the ones who want abortion outlawed completely. It is shear insanity.

It has been self-evident and has proven my point time and time again; pro-life groups are ignorant to other people’s problems and ironically, are rather heartless at that considering their claim to love but not give a shit. I guess this is what America has turned to. Let’s talk but not do anything. “Let’s screw over everyone as long as it isn’t me.” That’s the mentality that I get and the pro-life groups are the worst parasites in America. They just don’t think what consequences we are going to have with their agenda, if it goes their way.

Since Roe vs Wader, 40 million fetuses have been aborted. Our population is, give or take, about 293 million. If you add that on, we’d have 330 million people at that rate. Say if 1:3 of those 40 million had a child, we’d have another 13.5 million on adding up to 343.5 million people. Add another 7 million people and we can safely round it off to 350 million people right now in the US population.

Are you kidding me? We wouldn’t have enough jobs to go around and our standard of living would go to Hell. Not to mention now that crime rate would be higher as self-evident earlier in my post. The pro-life thinktanks just do not think. While they are going around and spouting Jesus catchphrases, they are also driving in their SUV and cussing out the next driver who cuts them off in their line. It isn’t only them. It is human nature! Please, to the pro-life thinktanks and the members of those illogical groups, stop the self-righteous sanctimonious attitudes that you carry and start considering the consequences for your lobby. Start donating the food in Africa but mass numbers instead of saving a fetus that you’d otherwise not give a crap about. It is absurd and I support abortion 100%.

Some religious people say abortion is wrong. Some religious people say abortion is OK. Some non-religious people may be on one side or the other. Why should the government interfere on one side or the other?

Let each person, especially the woman involved, follow her coscience. This is what is meant by the separation of church and state.

It is highly misleading to say that Democrats are in favor of abortion. They are not. Individually, some Democrats think it’s OK, others think it’s not. Harry Reid, the Democratic Senate Minority leader, is against abortion.

Democrats are in favor of allowing people of different faiths to follow their different religions in their own way. Democrats believe in freedom of religion. They do now want our country converted into a theocracy.

Paul,

Strikingly, abortion is a religious issue. In China, it may not be something that is considered wonderful but the women of that country accept it as it is beneficial to the population. Eastern and Western religions are very different. Morality, as some may not be able to be honest with themselves; can’t distinguish or will just be in denial is a completely relative entity.

Not one law in the world should be based off of religion unless it goes with a common sense; such as murder and stealing. Unfortunately, the moralists feel compelled to overthrow the US government with their dogma. This movement is not anymore about following the example of Christ than Bush’s Clean Water Act is about clean water.

I have to state that I believe that human life begins at conception. Abstinence is the only way that unwed “children” can protect themselves from becoming parents before they have grown up. That said, a baby that is conceived by any means has a right to life and should be given every opportunity to a life that can be profitable for mankind in the ways that staggers the mind. A great doctor, the researcher that discovers a much needed plan to overcome a dreaded disease, etc, etc….

Also, give this some thought. Our social security plan wouldn’t be facing disaster from not enough funds if these children were allowed to live and grow up to be productive members of society. Just think of all the possibilities.

It gives me great comfort to know that the right has such certinty on what is right or wrong, good or evil.

http://www.fwweekly.com/issues/2004-08-04/metropolis.asp

“Julia had already decorated her unborn son’s nursery, when an ultrasound at 22 weeks revealed that he was a tiny body of suffering. Severe, permanent muscle contractions had swelled his skull and joints and deformed his legs and his hands and feet were clubbed. His muscle tissue had deteriorated to only a quarter of normal size. By the time the shadowy image on the ultrasound was deciphered, she realized she was facing the unthinkable.”

Should she have simply “used an aspirin” to keep her knees together? What does John think the plan is for this baby? One year of life filled with pain? Pain that could only be cured by doses of morphine that would kill him? Some plan.

In my opinion, people need to butt out of other people’s business. If you want people to choose life, then give them the tools to do so. But I can’t look in the eye of a 22 year old who has just been told that their child will have CF and say “Oh, this is God’s plan for you. Dont’ worry, I know your insurance won’t take care of the lung transplant he’ll need, but I’m sure you’ll figure out someway of paying for it. And I’m sure that the lord will provide you all the emotional strength you need to handle the hundreds of hospital visits ahead of you.”

brutalnaivety is right,
Where were we when thousands of children in Rwanda were being murdered by machetes to their heads? Where are we now with the child slave trade in India? Where are we now when there are children in our own neighborhoods whose parents are struggling to make ends meet and find ways to provide care for their child with autism, downs syndrome, cystic fibrosis, cerebal palsy, etc.? 2% of children are born with severe disabilities. 1 in 50. We simply don’t provide the services and care that these evil socialist countries like Sweden do. (Countries with a much more permissive abortion policy, but far less individuals having abortions).

How can we tell people to “choose life” when we don’t even give our children the tools to live their life?

Julia

C A,
Your argument is fairly simplistic and quite the double edged sword. The odds of that happening is very slim. That “should have been” aborted fetus is more likely to murder you, yourself than to be the person to find AIDS. When parents don’t love a child (which it is the case a lot of times with an abortion as they don’t have the resources nor will to raise them) the kid is more likely to murder people than strive to find the cure for AIDS. Pro-lifers tend to be hostile towards Science, as evident by Evolution. We have found the theory behind Stem Cell Research. We have found it. This is it. This is the panaceas to every single disease known to man. I am that hopeful about it. Even if it couldn’t cure everything, it could cure a lot. What does your thinktank that influences your view on abortion say about Stem Cell Research? “Oh no, we can’t have that.” We have it now and don’t need a bunch of aborted kids to have that 1/40,000,000 odds of finding AIDS. Your group preaches life but when it comes to Montel Williams whom has Multiple Scerosis; you practically throw him the finger. How do I know all of this? Because it is so obvious. The hypocrisy of the pro-life thinktanks are striking and the cognitive dissonance is fairly pathetic.

“Let’s save that fetus, because he might cure AIDS even though I know for a fact that the fetus will more likely become a criminal than an Albert Einstein.”

“Let’s preach life for a fetus for parents/mother/father that may not even give a crap about the baby but when it comes to Christopher Reeves; screw him.”

“Let’s save fetuses and not worry about the population control, standard of living, and wages for millions of people in this country.”

“Let us put out ‘faith-based initiatives’ so we can control anyone who is not like us; albeit homosexual, muslim, people who have abortions and yes; liberals.”

“Let’s use our God, Jesus, to justify any freaking initiative we want even though Jesus could probably care less about ‘Christian nations’ because the US is on top but Kenya is in the sewers; although Kenya has a bigger Christian heritage than what the US will ever have and have more Christians per capita than the US.”

That is my impression of the pro-life groups. You should reconsider your position on it because the pro-life arguments are easily negated. I understand your concerns but your concerns and advocacies will affect way too much in my life, my kid’s life and millions of others. That is what I said: life.

If I could actually see the pro-life thinktanks attempt to push for government policies that will help counter the major problems behind outlawing abortions, then I would not be so harsh to them and their philosophies; but the fact is…they really don’t care what happens to people as long as one little program like outlawing abortion makes them look good in their crusade against Democrats and the US Government.

Like I originally said, “spiraling down into the absurd.”
Men AND women are to blame for careless sexual promiscuity.

Aldous,

I find it offensive that so much effort is made for a fetus while so little is given to the children. Abused children and unprepared parents are barely helped by overworked social workers who are not adequately funded.

“Offensive?” Good grief! I wrote on another topic about standards. People, in general, are uninformed (read: stupid). Not all, mind you. People are shirking their responsibilities. Parents are becoming less involved with their children, as a whole, teachers and social workers are trying to fill in the gaps but that is impossible to do for every child who is in this situation. Abortion will not solve anything. We can work on several issues at the same time, although getting parents to accept responsibility and raise children that will be productive to society is also virtually impossible.

“Unprepared parents,” who are they? A man and a woman marry, then they have a child(ren) at some point. Leading up to that point there should be discussion and planning. Are we to constantly rely on social workers to intervene? Parents need to teach their children how to communicate and plan, etc. It is because we have some selfish, uncarring fathers that a teen girl runs off to find solace and acceptance and quite possible ends up pregnant. Now do we turn to the trusty “safe and legal” abortion because of whatever reason someone can think up? I say No! Bring the baby to term and put it up for adoption or have the family get together, realize it’s mistakes and raise the child. (Yep, “perfect world” syndrome here, I know). Two promiscuous college kids end up getting pregnant. Abortion is the answer- wahoo! No! He needs to get a job, go to night school, support his new family and deal with the mistakes that he’s made. She needs to take care of herself and the new one inside her.

Mr Goodman,

Are you kidding me? We wouldn’t have enough jobs to go around and our standard of living would go to Hell. Not to mention now that crime rate would be higher as self-evident earlier in my post. The pro-life thinktanks just do not think. While they are going around and spouting Jesus catchphrases, they are also driving in their SUV and cussing out the next driver who cuts them off in their line. It isn’t only them. It is human nature! Please, to the pro-life thinktanks and the members of those illogical groups, stop the self-righteous sanctimonious attitudes that you carry and start considering the consequences for your lobby. Start donating the food in Africa but mass numbers instead of saving a fetus that you’d otherwise not give a crap about. It is absurd and I support abortion 100%.

I don’t know where to begin, but throwing labels and accusations isn’t a good start. Self-control, repsect for your own body and other’s, respect for life, etc. These are what start to make things better each day. When you repsct life, that means all the humans, born and yet-to-be-born, on the planet. We need to help the 3rd World countries, but how does that preclude taking care of a girl who is unsure whether she should have an abortion? Men and women make mistakes all the time, many of them deal with it, take the blame and move on. Others look for an easy way out. I’m not an ethicist, but my gut and heart tell me that an abortion is wrong. There are certain abhorent circumstances where one might consider an abortion, but maybe there is an alternative like the morning after pill or something.

Your “Are you kidding me?” statements seem to reflect a belief by you that everything is a zero-sum balance; if someone has more than I must have less; if that baby is aborted someone can keep their job. I don’t believe that for a split second. There are so many wondefrul things that we keep inventing; new this and that, that can and does make lives a little easier and sometimes better. We have the room, we have the jobs; we cannot know the future.

Julia,

Tragic story. Sometimes the plan for a baby is not intended for only that baby, it’s intended to do something for the family member(s). That situation is hard to imagine for some, I know. I liken it to the Terry Schiavo situation; many people look at the situation and say, “I wouldn’t want to live like that,” how do we know this baby will not have a fullfilled life? We are not her or the baby. What gives one the right to end the “suffereing”?

Zeek,

But, if you’re like me, you don’t see that cluster of cells as a human (yet). Many Christians are indignant about the “murder” of innocent “babies”, but it is a victimless crime. To look at it from a practical point of view, do you really think a blastocyst is going to care whether it’s aborted or not? It’s rather like euthanasia, the only unhappy people aren’t even affected and are arguing merely from a moral standpoint.

I think I’m getting the hang of the HTML finally.

I believe the point is not whether a blastocyst cares and the “victim” was just destroyed.

John and all,

The situation this woman is similar, to a lesser degree, of the situation of parent’s who bear children with Potter’s Syndrome (no kidneys). Except with Potter’s Syndrome, it takes only three days to die, and the pain isn’t extreme. With this child, it would take him a year to die (without pain treatment), and the only way to treat his pain would be to give him drugs which would kill him. He had charlie horses all over his body. Have you ever had a charlie horse? Imagine an infant feeling that way, permanently, for a year.

Maybe the plan for babies like this is to teach us all a lesson about how life isn’t filled with black and white issues, and we should be kind to people and the hard decisions they have to make, instead of making these decisions for them.

Julia

John,

I don’t know where to begin, but throwing labels and accusations isn’t a good start.

I won’t argue with you on this. Those are my observations. I see these things everyday and yes, I have seen people with bumper stickers on their car that says, “One Nation under God;” and their attitude, rudeness and such is over the line. Of course, you will deny them but I didn’t single them out. I called it for what it is, human nature. When you try to act like you are better and more righteous than everyone else, you are subject to criticism; atleast with me. I spot hypocrisy and I do observe behavior. I don’t like people who put on fronts. In my opinion, that is really what I see out of the Moral Majority; a front.

Self-control, repsect for your own body and other’s, respect for life, etc. These are what start to make things better each day. When you repsct life, that means all the humans, born and yet-to-be-born, on the planet. We need to help the 3rd World countries, but how does that preclude taking care of a girl who is unsure whether she should have an abortion?

I understand what you mean but someone has already negated that for you. It is more than just self-respect, control for your body, ect; although that is my premise. What are the pro-life thinktanks doing about decreasing the rising costs of health care? Are they going to help out a fetus with donations if they can’t afford an operation? I don’t think so. Very few churches will and the ones that do get the donations; are a part of the elite in the church anyways.
Respecting life is fine but why support war and guns as well? It is cognitive dissonance, no matter how you look at it. What I mean by providing food for third world countries over saving a fetus is that the pro-life groups don’t have their priorities straight. Would it not be better to save a thousand lives in Africa than one life in Florida?

Men and women make mistakes all the time, many of them deal with it, take the blame and move on. Others look for an easy way out.

Those who haven’t sinned, throw the first stone. Who are you to judge what actions people take; albeit the easy way out or not? If you are not in their shoes, don’t talk. That is plain and simple. “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” If the moralists want to throw Bible verses at me, I can do the samething. That is how you push an Evangelical Christians buttons.

I’m not an ethicist, but my gut and heart tell me that an abortion is wrong. There are certain abhorent circumstances where one might consider an abortion, but maybe there is an alternative like the morning after pill or something.

My Dad told me a great advice years ago, “use your head and not your heart.” Abortion, as I have pointed out is a necessary evil. Why would the pro-life groups try to outlaw it? Have you not considered that once abortion is outlawed, that contraceptives will likely be next in the pandora’s box? You can disagree but contraceptives are not the churches best friend. That is my problem as well. The pro-lifers are trying to tell you what God’s plan is when God has never said an audible word to that person. I think they are slapping God right in the freaking mouth. I find that offensive. God’s plan is whatever happens, free will/pre destination but that is another story.

Your “Are you kidding me?” statements seem to reflect a belief by you that everything is a zero-sum balance; if someone has more than I must have less; if that baby is aborted someone can keep their job. I don’t believe that for a split second.

It is not a zero-sum balance but I do see your point. It wouldn’t be so much a problem but when you add 40 million people to a population, plus a 1:3 ratio with kids and the technology and jobs don’t go well with it; a problem will occur for everyone who are in the position to be affected. That is simple economics. Your taxes would be higher as well because poorer people tend to demand more government.
Here are some embarassing statistics and give credit to David Remer for presenting them, thus killing your notion.

* The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (The New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004).
* The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).

* One-third of our science teachers and one-half of our math teachers did not major in those subjects. (Quoted on The West Wing, but you can trust it - their researchers are legendary.)

* Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the Earth. Seventeen percent believe the Earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).

* “The International Adult Literacy Survey .. found that Americans with less than nine years of education ‘score worse than virtually all of the other countries’” (Jeremy Rifkin’s superbly documented book The European Dream : How Europe’s Vision of the Future Is Quietly Eclipsing the American Dream, p.78).

* “The European Union leads the U.S. in … the number of science and engineering graduates; public research and development (R&D) expenditures; and new capital raised” (The European Dream, p.70).

* “Europe surpassed the United States in the mid-1990s as the largest producer of scientific literature” (The European Dream, p.70).

* Nevertheless, Congress cut funds to the National Science Foundation. The agency will issue 1,000 fewer research grants this year (NYT, Dec. 21, 2004).

* Foreign applications to U.S. grad schools declined 28% last year. Foreign student enrollment on all levels fell for the first time in three decades, but increased greatly in Europe and China. Last year Chinese grad-school graduates in the U.S. dropped 56%, Indians 51%, South Koreans 28% (NYT, Dec. 21, 2004). We’re not the place to be anymore.

* The World Health Organization “ranked the countries of the world in terms of overall health performance, and the U.S. [was] … 37th.” In the fairness of health care, we’re 54th. “The irony is that the United States spends more per capita for health care than any other nation in the world” (The European Dream, pp.79-80). Pay more, get lots, lots less.

* “The U.S. and South Africa are the only two developed countries in the world that do not provide health care for all their citizens” (The European Dream, p.80). Excuse me, but since when is South Africa a “developed” country? Anyway, that’s the company we’re keeping.

* “U.S. childhood poverty now ranks 22nd, or second to last, among the developed nations. Only Mexico scores lower” (The European Dream, p.81). Been to Mexico lately? Does it look “developed” to you? Yet it’s the only “developed” country to score lower in childhood poverty.

* Twelve million American families - more than 10% of all U.S. households - “continue to struggle, and not always successfully, to feed themselves.” Families that “had members who actually went hungry at some point last year” numbered 3.9 million (NYT, Nov. 22, 2004).

* The United States is 41st in the world in infant mortality. Cuba scores higher (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).

* Women are 70% more likely to die in childbirth in America than in Europe (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).

* The leading cause of death of pregnant women in this country is murder (CNN, Dec. 14, 2004).

* “Of the 20 most developed countries in the world, the U.S. was dead last in the growth rate of total compensation to its work-force in the 1980s. … In the 1990s, the U.S. average compensation growth rate grew only slightly, at an annual rate of about 0.1%” (The European Dream, p.39). Yet Americans work longer hours per year than any other industrialized country, and get less vacation time.

* “Sixty-one of the 140 biggest companies on the Global Fortune 500 rankings are European, while only 50 are U.S. companies” (The European Dream, p.66). “In a recent survey of the world’s 50 best companies, conducted by Global Finance, all but one was European” (The European Dream, p.69).

* “Fourteen of the 20 largest commercial banks in the world today are European. … In the chemical industry, the European company BASF is the world’s leader, and three of the top six players are European. In engineering and construction, three of the top five companies are European. … The two others are Japanese. Not a single American engineering and construction company is included among the world’s top nine competitors. In food and consumer products, Nestl�and Unilever, two European giants, rank first and second, respectively, in the world. In the food and drugstore retail trade, two European companies … are first and second, and European companies make up five of the top 10. Only four U.S. companies are on the list” (The European Dream, p.68).

* The United States has lost 1.3 million jobs to China in the last decade (CNN, Jan. 12, 2005).

* U.S. employers eliminated 1 million jobs in 2004 (The Week, Jan. 14, 2005).

* Three million six hundred thousand Americans ran out of unemployment insurance last year; 1.8 million - one in five - unemployed workers are jobless for more than six months (NYT, Jan. 9, 2005).

* Japan, China, Taiwan, and South Korea hold 40% of our government debt. (That’s why we talk nice to them.) “By helping keep mortgage rates from rising, China has come to play an enormous and little-noticed role in sustaining the American housing boom” (NYT, Dec. 4, 2004). Read that twice. We owe our housing boom to China, because they want us to keep buying all that stuff they manufacture.

No. 1? In most important categories we’re not even in the Top 10 anymore. Not even close. The USA is “No. 1” in nothing but weaponry, consumer spending, debt, and delusion.

Again, credit David for it. But it just shows you that this country has enough to work on as is and we don’t need 40 million other people to come into this world. What are you going to say in 10 years when this country jumps to 350 million because the politicians want illegal immigrants in this country for cheap labor? You are going to be mad. The same thing is with my mathematical calculations because with those 40 million added onto the 293 million of our current population and you take 1:3 ratio of that 40 million for one child; the number is just under 350 million. It would hurt our standard of living, wage and everything else.

There are so many wondefrul things that we keep inventing; new this and that, that can and does make lives a little easier and sometimes better. We have the room, we have the jobs; we cannot know the future.

Those statistics, thanks to David, will open your eyes. What is the US inventing anyways? Our manufactoring is pretty abysmal compared to Europe and Japan. We have the room but at a price. We don’t have the jobs as proven earlier and we don’t know the future. If we don’t know the future, why should we take such risks with our population over something that really is justified under religious dogma (which isn’t supported anyways as Jehovah was more than happy to order his minions to kill Pagan babies) and a morality that does not correlate and intertwine with common sense; as it is really a relative entity?

Mr Goodman,

Excellent points, incredible stats as well. I see your point(s). I’m against abortion and for alternatives. Yes, I do think contraceptives would become a Pandora’s box.

I don’t know what you mean by, Of course, you will deny them but I didn’t single them out. I can’t stand to see a Christian fish (or bumper sticker, etc.) on the back of a car and then have that person be a arrogant pig. Yes, hypocracy is rampant.

The thinktanks that you mention have a lot to answer for, but so do so many other institutions.

As for the inventing part, I meant we as in people, not necessarily just one country. However, the stats you provide ARE embarrassing!

I am not for forcing what I think down anyone’s throat, I just want to see kids grow up happy and healthy.

Thanks very much for the info you provided.

John,
Thanks and I did underestimate you as far as being fair. I guess frustration from debating this for so long and they are not acknowledging my points has made me very critical and judgmental of them.

I don’t know what you mean by, Of course, you will deny them but I didn’t single them out. I can’t stand to see a Christian fish (or bumper sticker, etc.) on the back of a car and then have that person be a arrogant pig. Yes, hypocracy is rampant.

Again, I apologize for generalizing and for being a little arrogant in my assumptions.

I do thank you for hearing and acknowledging my points. With your last response in here, I realize that even completely antithetical opponents on abortion can have a common ground. I want my kids to be happy and healthy as well.

Zeek
Your replies are usually so much better than that.

Raped, really how many babies do you think are conceived by rape? And is it the babies fault. Does the mother have to keep the baby, and isn’t that in degrees as to how easy it is to do the right thing.

So what if abortion would still happen if it was not legal. Zeek, robbery still happens, drugs still happen, murder still happens, speeding still happens. That is a piss poor excuse for anything.

As for making things simple. Come on..every situation can be boiled down to the basic’s. It is when one does not like the basic truth that it is not acceptable. Then it becomes necessary to murky it up to justify the unwillness to do what is required.

I love your mind Zeek and I know I have it coming to me a lot of times. But you dropped the ball this time.

“So what if abortion would still happen if it was not legal. Zeek, robbery still happens, drugs still happen, murder still happens, speeding still happens. That is a piss poor excuse for anything.”

Sue,

So it’s ok for you that if abortion is illegal, the mother that wishes an abortion must risk her life.
The right seems to think that the mother is worthless in the equation, it’s all about bringing another life into the world.

What a crock.

Tom,

“We all are born with the right to ‘LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS’”

That would be correct. So the unborn do not have this right. I’m glad we have a consensus.

Donny, for the most part I was indifferent to most of your stats, but this one seems to be faulty:

“We owe our housing boom to China, because they want us to keep buying all that stuff they manufacture.”

You drew this conclusion from the quote:

“By helping keep mortgage rates from rising, China has come to play an enormous and little-noticed role in sustaining the American housing boom”

Demographic spending trends are easily the largest factor driving home building and thus, home appreciation rates over time. Since 1975, the price of an average house has increased 4.4 times, well before China began sustaining our national debt. This has been a steady and relatively predictable trend. While mortage rates and affordability can leverage gains, they most certainly do not play as major a role as you make it seem.

Also, the idea that China is responsible for low mortage rates in the US is itself ridiculous. Demographics, again, have more to do with this than China. If you want me to explain how demographics work with the housing market, ask. But it’s sort of lengthy and complicated so I won’t explain it unless someone’s curious.

Rocky,
It is really plain to see, that anyone that’s choice is to do any illegal thing naturally puts himself/herself in peril. So things should be legal because if we do them illegally, we could hurt ourselves. Ha Ha

Good one Sue.

Sheeech.

Zeek,
Take it up with David on the statistics. I just copy and pasted it from a February article in the Independent section. I didn’t add or subtract any of his comments on the statistics. Personally, I found him to be super witty.

Sue,
Since when has abortion been illegal, as far as first and second trimester abortions?

Sue,

I guess I did sort of drop the ball in the sense that I did not explain myself in this instance. True, outlawing murders doesn’t stop them from happening, but it doesn’t make them worse either. Outlawing abortions, however, does indeed make the situation worse (as history has proven). Before Roe v. Wade, women got abortions anyways, and quite often they died as a result.

In the 1960’s, complications from illegal abortions accounted for almost 20% of all pregnancy-related admissions to municipal hospitals in New York and California. By the late 1960’s, state legislatures began to reconsider the legalization of abortion in response to changes in public opinion and calls from national medical, legal, religious, and social welfare organizations. By 1973, 17 states had liberalized their abortion laws.

I think the most notable thing here is that even the Church was beginning to realize that illegal abortions was resulting in a great loss of life of young women getting illegal abortions. Not surprising when you consider the most common tool used for self-administred abortions pre-1970s was a wire coat-hanger. Sue, yes, it’s too bad there are so many irresponsible people in this world, but we’ve been down the road of illegal abortions before, and it wasn’t pretty. Let’s not make the same mistake again.

Oh look, another abortion article…
How novel and unique.
Great idea — let’s roll back a safe medical procedure that’s been legal for thirty years to adhere to the religious concepts of one segment of our population.
Nah, let’s not instead. We don’t want “freedom on the march” in this country, do we?

“In light of this woman’s narrative, I will stick with my statement that I support a woman’s right to choose, sex or no sex.”

No sex before marriage?
Kind of like buying shoes without trying them on, isn’t it girls?
I mean, what if they rub you the wrong way? Literally.
Ouch!

But wait, it’s much worse than that…
No sex unless you want to make a baby.

How quaint. Rather like Ye Olden Days!
No thanks, I for one, would prefer to live in my own lifetime, instead of my grannie’s.

Adrienne,
I found it ironic because a lot of Christians in my junior class were anti-abortion and anti-contraceptives promotion at school. What I find funny is that one of those girls ended up getting pregnant before she was married by some guy she dated who was in college. Not only did she end up getting an abortion, not only was she fronting about “sex before marriage is a deadly sin”, not only was she willingly breaking the statutory rape law because she was underage, but she spend so much time talking junk to me and my liberal friends that the hypocrisy bug bit her in the butt.

Karma’s a bitch.

All the stats given are usually from someone who has an agenda or an axe to grind. If they are from the NYT it makes it more skeptical. There are some who have posted that are 100% pro abortiion. At the 2nd/3rd tremester where they perform what is called the partial birth abortion, it most certainly is murder. They baby is all but brought out of the birth canal, and then the abortion expert plunges a hole into the base of the brain and the brain contents are sucked out. Now, if that baby were to be allowed full access to this world, the chances of survival are very good. And if the abortion expert then tries to kill the infant he would be charged with murder and rightfully so. Some of the other stats like 2% are born with defects. Then the 98% without defects cannot be justified as killing them even when economic considerations are brought forth.
Let me explain where I come from with a couple of examples from my personal life.
I am Vice President of a non profit organization that deals with human needs and sorrows. I once counseled a 13 year old black youth who was born HIV positive and later it became full blown aids. I spent many hours with the young man right up to his death. He was frail and had to lifted from his bed to a chair. I was never in danger of getting HIV from him. I would do that again if given the oportunity. My wife and I have to boys that are half brothers. We brought them into our family when they were 3 & 5. Today they are 12 & 14. They had very little chance of a fruitful life. Most of their time was spent on the street. They are now thriving. They are adopted into our family complete with our last name. They are A students and have promising careers ahead of them. Now, if their birth mother had aborted any of those three youth mentioned, then there would be no education in learing about HIV/AIDS for some people. The promising future of the two boys would only have been a passing thought. What I am trying to say, is that I have put forth by belifs into practical and logical approach to living, not dying. There is much more I could add, but I hope that I conveyed my inner soul and beliefs to show that I among many are doing something to show compassion, care and love to those less fortunate that others.

Zeek, and the others,
First to the women who find it difficult to accept the buck stops with us when it comes to having babies. A really good solution would be to get to know the man you are preparing to sleep with well enough FIRST to know how he would be willing to handle this situation. Maybe even go one step further and sleep only with men that love and respect you, with a willingness to stand behind you in all situations.Granted that cuts down on the fun and frolic we women can have, but that’s life.) In seriousness, actively teaching your girls this will be a giant step forward. It does work. I have four children, and it has worked very well. One of my sons created a child unmarried. She is my granddaughter in every way. As well as his child. He pays child support and does all he can. Things can be handle with dignity. It starts with their early learning. They may stray from it but will always come back.

Then the pity felt for women who have had abortions, the grief and remorse they feel, I applaud them. That is the appropriate response. Would it be better, (as many,many do) , than those that want everyone else to be able to do it also in order for them to feel better about themselves.

Then those on here that think because society handles one issue wrong (abused children) it would make it better if we handled two things wrong. What I want to know is if some of these people have two brain cells rubbing together or if the are just raging about amok in their skull unrelated to anything.

Then Zeek, please read what I have next, long as it may be with an open mind. It is not the quick fix abortion is, but it is one that would work.

There is for a fact, a segment of adult females I deal with every day at shelters and the like. Basically out of sex being the only kind of love they understand, they indulge with many, many men. As a natural consequence, there are many, many children produced from this. Many are 25 year olds with 8 or 9 children already in the system. It is true a lot of the women did not/do not want their children, they are in the way. Then you go and work with the children and they are delightful, bright, eager little beings always looking for the silver lining and just so sure it is out there somewhere. More often than anyone would like to be aware, these mothers often have sexually tranmitted diseases, including AIDS. They do not even have enough respect for themselves to protect their own lives. Amazingly enough, you grow to love these women. They just missed out on all types of positive parenting. But it is not to late for them to learn. When a child is born into the system, parenting skill should be taught to the mother. It will not only help her raising her child but help her understand some of the mistakes she has made can be corrected and are not all her fault. Her recognizing her worth as a person will help with birth control in itself. She will learn to put a price on herself, realizing she is a person worthy of respect and love. This will domino down the line to her children. Every positive step to the right these women take is from education and every baby step in the right direction improves their lives 10-fold. It is just teaching them how to attain the life they really want.

Then the poor children, the real victims. That silver lining for them is not being yelled at 24/7 and having something positive said to them every once in a while, instead of the only comunication they receive from there parents is the yelling sort.

Raise my taxes need be, but lets educate our little ones concerning morals and responsibility. Then when they get older and they stray (normal children) lets make sure they have the facts about controlling unwanted sexual diseases and pregnancy. In high school, lets teach them the realities of married life, parenting, and respecting one another in a family unit.

Not band-aid fixes. But they will make so much more of a difference than just the abortion issue.

Adrienne,

“In light of this woman’s narrative, I will stick with my statement that I support a woman’s right to choose, sex or no sex.”

No sex before marriage?
Kind of like buying shoes without trying them on, isn’t it girls?
I mean, what if they rub you the wrong way? Literally.
Ouch!

Hmmm, almost zero possibility of an STD, giving yourself only to one person and making that special bond. “Trying on” the opposite sex doesn’t necessarily mean you sleep with those you think might make a good partner for life. An acceptable method to birth control that hurts no one.

But wait, it’s much worse than that…
No sex unless you want to make a baby.

How quaint. Rather like Ye Olden Days!
No thanks, I for one, would prefer to live in my own lifetime, instead of my grannie’s.

What is wrong with that outlook? As long as no one is cramming it down other’s throats…

I think your sarcasm is misplaced. Because we live in a more modern time means that older values are useless?

Has anyone considered the fact that some women are attempting to prevent pregancy and get pregnant none the less? Birth control pills nor condoms are 100% effective. In fact, if a woman is taking St. John’s Wort it can drastically reduce the efficiency of her birth control. There are a great deal of women who don’t know that. And sadly, not everyone consults their physician before mixing perscription drugs with other durgs and remedies.

Donny,
Thanks for your comments. I’m glad you ask for God’s Blessings upon me, but I’m rather surprised that you would use something as wonderful as His Blessings as a sarcastic comment. I guess I can “spin” that so that it demonstrates your overall respect (or lack thereof) for God?

But alas, I digress. Your response, particularly the verse you quoted, seems a bit off mark. I don’t like to think that I “spin” things that are in the Bible — I like to think that life begins at conception and all human life is to be treated with dignity and as such I do not believe abortion to be a procedure which respects the sanctity of human life.

The particular verse you quoted is quite clear in it’s intent — he wasn’t just talking about any old backstabber. He was talking about one guy who was personally responsible for the handing over of Christ to his killers. And he was speaking that it would have been better had he not been born because his eternal damnation would be something that no person should want to bear.

So, spin schmin. Whatever.

God Bless (And I Mean this),
Bill

I wrote:
>No sex before marriage?
>Kind of like buying shoes without trying them on, isn’t it girls?
>I mean, what if they rub you the wrong way? Literally.
>Ouch!

John:
“Hmmm, almost zero possibility of an STD,”

People should never take another’s word for anything these days. Do yourselves both the favor — go get tested together.

“giving yourself only to one person and making that special bond.”

Sometimes a girl has got to kiss a lot of Frogs before she finds a Prince — unfortunately, that takes some of us longer than others.
I was lucky to find my Prince when I was very young, and I’ve been happily in love with him for twenty years, but some of my friends are still shopping. It is extremely unreasonable to expect any woman beyond her mid twenties or so, to remain a virgin — really life is just too bloody short!

“”Trying on” the opposite sex doesn’t necessarily mean you sleep with those you think might make a good partner for life.”

I was talking about MARRIAGE here, not cheap and sluty one night stands.

“An acceptable method to birth control that hurts no one.”

Marrying a man and not using birth control is not a method — it is a recipe for far too many kids and an early death.

>How quaint. Rather like Ye Olden Days!
>No thanks, I for one, would prefer to live in my own lifetime, >instead of my grannie’s.

“What is wrong with that outlook?”

Far too many kids and an early death.

“I think your sarcasm is misplaced.”

:^D I think not!
Times have changed, and thankfully The Double Standard has been on mothballs in Grannie’s attic for quite some time now. Women shouldn’t be expected to have zero knowledge of their sexuality before marriage. Nor should they be expected to put their sexual lives on hold waiting for a Prince who may never come. After all, men have never had to wait, so why should women?

“Because we live in a more modern time means that older values are useless?”

Of course not. But we were talking about birth control. Older values regarding birth control are definitely useless today. For instance, I believe my Gran may have had all five of her children, including my dad, using the “rhythm method”.

Being a Republican but not a right wing zealot (my hero is Barry Goldwater) I truly believe that government should stay out of our bedrooms. We are a republic, not a theocracy and I truly hope things stay that way. The Supreme Court made a decision-it doesn’t matter if you like it or not it is the law and we should “give unto…” you know the rest. I also believe that at least 60% of Americans would like to see both the left and the right just shut up on the issue. We are tired of listening to you both!

Adrienne,

When I referenced STDs I was referring to two virgins marrying.

So KISS; stop having sex. A short life is the basis for having sex with several people just so one can find someone who fits?

I was talking about MARRIAGE here, not cheap and sluty one night stands.

So am I.

Marrying a man and not using birth control is not a method

What I meant was premarital abstinance is an acceptable method that hurts no one. An ounce of prevention…

— it is a recipe for far too many kids and an early death.

OK, how many is “too many”? That’s an extremely broad statement.

Early death? I’m sorry, I’m not following your logic here. Would you explain please?

I’ve been snipped because my first wife’s health detiriorated each time after she had our two children. People can get snipped after they have how many they want. I’m OK with that. I know many women who have had anywhere from one to five children and are all just fine. It’s their choice to have as many as they want and the children are doing just fine as well.

Thad,

An interesting, thought-provoking addition to this BLOG. Thank you very much.

We are tired of listening to you both!

“We”, “us and them”. Terms that put up walls. You may be right, but the discussion(s) here is worthwhile to many.

“Then those on here that think because society handles one issue wrong (abused children) it would make it better if we handled two things wrong.”

Yea Sue,

Why can’t we just take care of the “abused children”, before we make more?
Look, you wouldn’t accept sterilization for women that are multiple offenders because it would ruin your Biblical fun. I doubt that you are going to stop teens from having sex and wishing it won’t make it so.
Get over it.

I really wasn’t trying to make abortion a “trite” issue, but I do believe that all of us, whichever side of the issue we may individually find ourselves on, are not going to convince those who have a different opinion that that opinion is misguided. We’ve already covered that ground so many times. It is a fact that the Supreme Court legalized abortion. It is also a fact that it is unfortunate that our elected representatives were not given the opportunity to legislatively determine the legality of abortion. I believe that much of todays debate over the issue would be muted if those we directly elected had decided the issue.

I had to sit by and let my son’s girl friend go ahead with an abortion of one of my grand kids. The only reason she ever gave anyone on my side of the famley was that she did not wan’t it. There was no reason to have the baby distoryed, the wife and i offered to take care of the baby yntil they could do so or until the child was grown. It’ is true that she dispises and hates me. I had the nerve to tell her she was not much of a mother and never would be until she started doing what was best for her kids. I have attempted to remove the existing daughter from her and my son’s care due to them fighting. Yet the law is the law no matter what it is. It was her choice to have one of her kids murdered just because she did not want it and would not let us have it.

If we find this type of death along with starving to death accepitical then lets apply them to those on death row. After all it is not crul or unsuel punishment as we already praticis it. Lets let one or two murders on death row starve to death and a few of them to be yanked out of there cells with a big set of thongs then have a sharp long pointy thing stuck into there body until they have expired all life from there body. Then lets see how people really feel about this issue. After all death is death and it is for ever, we can’t just bring them back.

Thad,

Excellent point. I agree whole heartedly with you. Thanks.

Paw Paw,

Sorry about the situation. Very sad.

I keep hearing all about the woman’s right to choose and how the women’s movement supports that choice. These same people insist that we are all created equally and insist that any law, which differentiates between the sexes, should be outlawed. Accepting this premise, why don’t men have the right to choose abortion over some ill-conceived one-night stand having a baby? Would justice be better served if a man had the right to choose between paying for a $200 abortion rather than 18 years of child support? I know you chicks out there are going to be up in arms over the suggestion that a man should have the right to tell you that you cannot have the baby, take him to court, insist on his paying child support for a child he never wanted, then having the power to manipulate his paid for child into thinking he’s a bad person for not marrying you and making you an honest slut. TOO BAD! In fact, it is for these reasons I suggest that a man should have the right to offer to pay for the abortion, if she refuses, then he is not obligated to pay for the child. In fact, when she does reject the abortion offer, she also loses any claims to government assistance and if she cannot take care of the child financially, that child will be taken from her, she will be neutered (or spayed, I get those confused) and the child will be given to a family that will be compensated to raise him or her. Preferably, the birth father or another member of his family will be open to receiving the child, and then she will be ordered to pay them child support.
WOW! If the sexes were truly treated equally, this would be a just answer to the abortion fight. Let’s be honest, not a single femi-nazi would stand for giving a man the right to dictate what a pregnant can or can’t do. The fact is, the whole abortion fight is about women’s power to control men. It is their answer to our being able to pee on the wall. Since 1973, they control their uterus and all the fruits from said uterus. However, to be FAIR, men and women should have equal say into the number of children they bring into the world.
If you have read the entire comment, you may think that I am pro-choice. In fact, I am the strongest male pro-life proponent you will ever meet. I suggested this absurd scenario to illustrate a point to those already conflicted people tilted to the left. That is to say, their hypocrisy is so blatant, they contradict their every thought. You cannot support equality under the law and the female right to choice. They know it and have joked about it for 32 years. It is time that you all know it. Stop arguing the religious side to it, for anyone who support abortion as a choice cannot be swayed by religion, they are too far-gone. You must argue logic to them, possibly hit at their core beliefs and illustrate the conflict.

Good Luck and keep up the fight.

Great site, well done. I enjoy beeing here and i´ll come back soon. You do a great job. Many greetings.

Subaru; Really, how often does that happen? Do you not think that a tremendous number of us were not accidents? What is wrong with facing our responsibilities as adults? Don’t you think you are looking a bit hard for a reason to excuse a mistake you probably made?

Thad; No one is making you enter this site. The truth is to make a society moral and strong starts with just these issues and moves up. It is not a bedroom issue. It defines the very value of life. A shame your mind cannot comprehend that.

Rocky; Perhaps someday you will understand education better, that maybe after you acquire some.

Becca, your comments above do not comply with our Critique the Message, Not the Messenger policy. Please observe our policy or lose your comment privileges on this site.

—WatchBlog Manager

We can argue all day about abortion, including what-ifs such as rape, incest, etc…, and non-christians can use their stand point of pro-life is forcing religion on us while Christians can aruge that life begins at conception and that it’s murder, and so forth until the cows come home. While I PERSONNALLY think that life beings at conception because of my Christian beliefs, I think that in a LOT of cases christians miss the point when it comes to abortion. I think that while I have to agree that abortion is wrong in MOST cases, there are cases when you have to consider it the best option such as misformed baby, and the potential death of the mother, and other extreme circumstances, and I would hope to never be put in the position where I would have to make that decision. My point however, which I have gotten off track from already, is that my beliefs as a Christian teach me the following : Love, Mercy, Charity, Forgiveness, and Breaking down the dividing walls.

Fellow Christians: We should not be outside abortion clinics screaming at the women or girls going inside that they are murderers. How many people have ever accepted Jesus that way? Our job is to show the love of Christ, not to use him as a weapon. Jesus didn’t shout at people to believe in Him. He simply loved them and met their needs, and as a result they came to him willingly. Is it not our jobs as Christians to model this behavior? Do you think Jesus would stand outside the clinic and scream and curse at these women? No, he would simply love them no matter what. Still does. That is where we are all failing as Christians. Yes, stand up for what is right, believe it with your whole heart, and say wrong is wrong. But do it with love. “If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.” 1 John 4:20-21.

Pro-lifers, We keep getting so caught up in protecting the children that we forget that we’re supposed to be reaching out, not putting down. Pro-Choice people get so caught up in women’s right to choose that they want to forget everything and everyone else involved. I would personally love it if abortion were made illegal EXCEPT for extreme circumstances, but does my wanting it give me the right to condemn others? No it doesn’t. It gives me the right to vote for other people who share my beliefs. It gives me the right to disagree with those who do not share my beiefs. I have the right to share what I believe with anyone who is interested in listening. And others have the right to tell me they don’t want to hear it. That’s what freedom is. Most of all it is my JOB, RIGHT, PRIVILEDGE as a Christian to love all people, born, or not yet born…whether they share my beliefs or not.

We all need to come together on this issue, to make an comprehensive plan that will protect as many innocent people as possible whether they be the mother or the child. I realize that nothing is ever going to suit everyone. If we’re going to make laws about something so contriversial, we need to be very careful about blanket generalizations. Stereotypes and generalizations don’t help anyone.

I’ve read a lot of you saying that we should take care of the abused and starving children in the world before we make more….although that is a very sensitive statement it is completely absurd to justify abortion. Abortion is killing a human life period. Killing is against the law period. Why is there a debate over this? I know there are a lot of arguments out there like rape, but as Bill stated “a life is a life is a life.” That fact cannot be argued.

I would like to ask those of you who support abortion, to ask someone who has been adopted if they would have rather been aborted

I was adopted - and I think that at the time when my birth-mother was making that decision, I wouldn’t have been able to contribute much to the discussion either way…

Killing is against the law period…

Except when it’s the law that’s doing the killing.

…as Bill stated “a life is a life is a life.” That fact cannot be argued.

Unless the people arguing the fact are justifying war or the death penalty for example.

Chad, let me throw a little moral relativism at you.

Let’s assume it is wrong to kill. What are we doing killing in Iraq? Is the Iraq war not wrong. Is it better that we do the killing instead of Saddam Hussein?

Let’s assume torture is wrong, willfully allowing someone to suffer when intervention will prevent it should then also be wrong.

So, in China, where millions every year face starvation and the meagerest or most wanting existence, where children’s stomachs bloat, where there is no opportunity for education or employment, and in some cases no hope of living to adulthood. This is also true in places in Africa.

Now, which is more wrong? For the China government to enforce a one child policy even with abortion, or to allow the numbers of suffering and tortured in the poorest areas of China to grow today and in the future?

If committing one abortion prevents several children in the future from being born into abject poverty, from being exploited to death in sweat shops by other poor who see starving children as profitable capital for those sweatshops, is the one abortion which prevents the torture and suffering of a number of other children from being so severe or from occuring at all, a greater evil, lesser evil, or necessary evil?

I know I’m going to catch a lot of flack from this but that’s ok.
ABORTION IS MURDER AND THERE IS NO REASON OR EXCUSE FOR IT.

Rebutting an earlier comment by Donny Goodman:

Since Roe vs Wader, 40 million fetuses have been aborted. Our population is, give or take, about 293 million. If you add that on, we’d have 330 million people…

No we wouldn’t, because most of those women would have subsequently chosen not to conceive children that they ended up having later. But you’re right that our population would be bigger, which would also mean:

* Kids aborted in the 70s would now be adults contributing to our society in the form of tax receipts, paying back the support funding that some of them would have had growing up. Though honestly, it is pretty debateable whether the abortions that take place come from a lower socio-economic tier than that in which live births occur. A lot of abortions are performed on rich 30-something women who don’t want to lose their figure or their future yacht.

With blacks comprising 40%+ of abortions, the strategy isn’t merely population control; it’s the attempted Aryanization of our race. I’d like to see statistics from NARAL suggesting otherwise.

“We prefer the policy of immediate sterilizarion, of making sure that parenthood is absolutely prohibed to the feeble-minded.”

“We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don’t want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population. And the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.”

Margaret Sanger
Founder of Planned Parenthood

I also support a woman’s right to choose. I also support any person’s right to choose to hold up the corner convenience store. But in neither case am I advocating robbery or the murder of an unborn child. Abortion is not about choice; it’s about making a choice on the side of life. Our rights are not granted to us by government but by God. And we all have the right to choose, no matter what. We just can’t choose the consequences of our choices, and that is what I believe the so-called “pro-choice” movement wants us to believe. It’s really about wanting to have it their own way all the while masquerading as righteous crusaders for womens’ rights. We all need to carefully consider the results of the choices we make in life and not expect the nanny state, or any other entity to coddle us while we make reckless choices. Having rights entails much more than doing what we please; it’s doing what should be done and ought to be done from an informed, moral perspective, and this isn’t accomplished in a day of course.

John:
“So KISS; stop having sex.”

I keep getting this feeling that the people who believe this is an effective birth control message have either forgotten what it is like to be young, or perhaps have a serious hormonal imbalance?

Look, like I said, times have changed. Most women are no longer expected to marry when very young and do nothing but raise children their entire lives. Instead, they are expected to be able to earn their own living, and if they are wise as well as realistic, they will make sure to get an education or develop some sort of career for themselves before they ever think of marrying and have kids.
In the time it takes most women to accomplish those goals, most likely they’re going to get the itch to have sex at some point. There is nothing wrong or immoral about it — it is completely natural. And if they are using their smarts, when that time comes they will use birth control rather than place themselves in a postion of having a child before reaching that goal of self-sufficiency.
After all, many, many women in this day and age end up raising their children all on their own, so it is only using your brain to be able to support yourself and your children if that unfortunate circumstance arises.

“A short life is the basis for having sex with several people just so one can find someone who fits?

Like I said, they should protect themselves from STD’s and get tested with each new partner.
And yes, I think its a good idea for women to take the time to get to know themselves and their own minds and desires before settling down with someone who fits. It is good for us as human beings.

“What I meant was premarital abstinance is an acceptable method that hurts no one. An ounce of prevention…”

That ounce of prevention can also be had by other means — and it’s a hellava lot more reasonable an expectation for our society at large.

“Early death? I’m sorry, I’m not following your logic here. Would you explain please?”

Sure. The more children a woman has the shorter her">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2978454.stm”> lifespan.

Seems my second link isn’t working. Here it is again:
Peers give clues to human evolution: The family trees of aristocratic British families have offered insights into the way women unknowingly “traded” a long life for large numbers of children.

Hmm. Still not working. Oh well, here is the url:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2978454.stm

Adrienne,
You said,
“Women shouldn’t be expected to have zero knowledge of their sexuality before marriage. Nor should they be expected to put their sexual lives on hold waiting for a Prince who may never come. After all, men have never had to wait, so why should women?”

I think that your buying into a lie that men and women just don’t have the self-control to “hold out” until marriage. Not only is it possible, it is in your best interest to wait not just because of disease, pregnancy, etc, but there are also psychological implications. As the Bible says, “the two become one”. Not just physically, but spiritually and emotionally. Alright, so you don’t believe me. I don’t want you to respond to me, just ask yourself this question. What is the true purpose of sex and is it really something that we should give away so easily? And just for your information, my husband and I were both virgins when we married at the age of 30.

Leah,

Wake up! Not only are you short sighted - no one “holds out” any more these days - you’re also using the wrong crutch. The folks who aren’t “holding out” until they are married are also probably not reading the Bible and interpreting it as you are. Find a new argument.

“As the Bible says”

Sorry Leah,

I can’t except that explanation. Please try again.

Accept/except go figure.

I have a great idea. I’ve always felt that telling people to not have sex was a little silly since there is so much sex around us. Besides, sex help to sell us things we wouldn’t buy otherwise (pro-business), helps continue the species and otherwise feels too good to give up so let’s just agree not to get rid of it okay?

Okay so here’s the deal - why don’t we treat abortion the same way that we do things like obesity? We know it’s bad but unlike obesity for which there are several causes - overeating, lack of exercise, (genes?). Those of us that are watching our weight give up foods with sugar for those with artificial sweetners. I’ve been drinking diet coke for the past 10 years and have gotten so used to it that can’t stand the taste of regular soda anymore. By replacing regular with diet, I can get all the caffeine/carbonation/refreshment I want without the risk of getting fat. There are other factors here but you all get my drift.

I propose that we start frowning on sex/sexual activity that could result in unplanned conception (which could then lead to abortion) and start hyping up those that don’t. Last time I checked, only man + woman + vaginal sex led to unplanned pregnancies so we start by hyping up sexual activities such as oral and anal sex and also lots and lots of masturbation. You know what though, I think the next generation are way ahead of us on this though - didn’t I read somewhere that teenagers are becoming more likely to experiment with oral and anal sex than ever? Seems they’ve solved the problem for themselves.

Honestly though, I think that the abortion/morality problem is one that will be solved with more (better?) parenting than any legislative action - I remember one of the ladies at Watchblog (I think it was Dawn) explaining how she made sure to talk to her daughter about sex ed and birth control. I just hope that when my time comes, I would do just as good a job.

That’s my $0.02.

Zeek,
Please remember that you were once a fetus.
Aren’t you thankful that you’re alive?

Leah:
“I think that your buying into a lie that men and women just don’t have the self-control to “hold out” until marriage.”

This is a free country (at least is supposed to be) therefore, we are all able to buy into our own lies — or truths and realities as the case may be, about our own personal levels of self-control and urges for sex.

“What is the true purpose of sex”

Well, I won’t try to speak for everyone, but for me personally it is to show my deep love and overwhelming attraction for my husband, to have tons of fun while doing it, and to scratch a perfectly normal biological itch.

“and is it really something that we should give away so easily?”

What is that anyones business when it comes to other people having sex, I wonder?
This is an important question, and one I often find myself wondering over when it comes to the bible thumping segment of American society. What the hell is it about sex and procreation that brings out the nosy, judgemental and intolerant sides of such people? Why do they always seem to want to dictate to others exactly what can and should happen in those peoples bedrooms or doctors offices?
It is absolutely NONE of your business.

“And just for your information, my husband and I were both virgins when we married at the age of 30.”

Bravo???

I think it is extremely naive and completely unreasonable to expect the majority of healthy men and women to follow this particular example.

I still think uber condoms would solve the whole problem.

Zeek

My youngest son would disagree. We are really glad to have him. You might call that the will of God.

Condoms don’t always work to prevent pregnancy or disease.

“My youngest son would disagree. We are really glad to have him. You might call that the will of God.”

I think it is important for one to remember that their personal story is not the only story in the world.
One couples “will of God” is another couples “now we can’t pay the rent”.

Do you people get it that the “moral majority” in this country has an unrealistic attitude toward sex and birth control?

This argument has been going on for decades.

You don’t want your children taught about sex and you don’t want your children taught about birth control. Yet you won’t talk to your children yourselves about either and are suprised and horrified when your daughters get pregnant.
Then the “liberals” are blamed for the promiscuous society we live in.
A lack of knowledge is what causes women to get abortions.
You picket clinics and look down your noses at loose women.
You want to make abortion illegal but don’t adopt the children that are already here and do nothing to fund programs for abused children.

“Condoms don’t always work to prevent pregnancy or disease.”

Yea Jack, but they are better than using nothing.

I have been accused of being uneducated and ill-informed in this thread, but you people are the ones that refuse to make the hard choices and always hide behind your Bibles anytime the subject comes up.

Sometimes I am ashamed to be an American.

Well said, Rocky!
I couldn’t agree with you more.

Thank you Adrienne

Sure. The more children a woman has the shorter her lifespan

Come on, Adrienne, that was ages ago. It doesn’t necessarily happen today.

I just don’t agree with your viewpoint. But! I congratulate you on a wonderful marriage!

Having a moral conscience and hiding behind a Bible are two entirely different subjects. Not everyone that believes in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY is hiding behind anything. That is just what some want to believe because it fits into their lifestyle and creats a situation which allows them to live however they desire without guilt. I have no problem with it at all. I figure we will all find out in the end. It justs seems to me that their are so very many belief’s that have no useful purpose, what is the need to attack one that’s entire purpose is to do good?

Yes, but Sue what is the need to attack anyone. You attack people for the way they belive because they belive differently than you.
You have attacked people because of your perception of their morals.
It is your personal responsibility to teach your children about sex, and birth control. If you are like most of the Bible thumpers that posted here, you have probably reniged on that responsibility.
What have you done about child abuse today?
Have you adopted a child that wasn’t perfect?

Please don’t piss on my head and tell me it’s raining.

I support a woman’s right to choose, sex or no sex.

i’m not sure how to respond to this. just when i think the right has the ability to argue coherently, we get something like this—pedestrian, at best, insulting, at worst.

it’s especially telling, nathan, that nowhere to you mention the man’s role in procreation, or abstinence.

Malcolm,

Abortion is not about choice; it’s about making a choice on the side of life. Our rights are not granted to us by government but by God.

So God implemented the Rico Act and the Brady Bill? I always knew their was something divine about Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan.
In all seriousness, that way of thinking doesn’t hold up and you know that; not when discussing political issues such as this.

Leah,

I think that your buying into a lie that men and women just don’t have the self-control to “hold out” until marriage. Not only is it possible, it is in your best interest to wait not just because of disease, pregnancy, etc, but there are also