Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

Yes, there will be people who act like scrooges, act like the Soviets when it comes to religion and Christmas. But is the assault that serious? I know the Republicans love to whip themselves into a frenzy at the slightest sign of secular humanism, but the reality is Religious life in America is alive and well.

Enjoy your Christmas, that’s what I say. If you start hating and fearing people because they want to take it away from you, you miss Christ’s message. He wanted us to stand up for our faith, and be reassured by it. We should stand up to those who want to bully us, but not take on their irrational demeanor. They can justify that behavior to themselves- they are of the world. We can’t, we are of God, and he has taught us better.

Additional thoughts:
I know some people want to believe that only a believing society can have law and order, but that’s not true.

I believe the Holy Spirit manifests itself in all, and God has reveal some portion of his law to each and every culture and part of the world. It is the extent to which this has sunk in that determines how humane the behavior of the people involved is. All justice is of God.

I believe in the superiority of the Christian faith, but can empathize with those who believe otherwise, and understand that if some Buddhist practicing on the other side of the Globe has lived a Godly life, and I have not, I will not be welcomed into heaven, and he will be. He might be surprised at it, but if he’s done God’s work, and truly repents of his misdeeds in life, then he will be welcomed.

Besides, in the end, you have to worry about the state of your soul first, for the bible also says that if you haven’t gotten yourself straight, you won’t be able to set anybody else straight either. One of the reasons so many reject Christianity, no doubt.

In the end, I do not fear for this society, for I see constant echoes of grace in the hunger and thirst of this nation for works of beauty and wisdom, in other religion’s seeking of the truth of God. This is a human society, and a secular nation, but it is full of hope, tolerance, and the wisdom of many different cultures.

So don’t fear. God has things well in hand.

I don’t suppose it never occured to you that the guy might be jewish? I know a lot of Jews are annoyed at Christmas because of the closeness of Hunnika and whatnot. You ever tried to explain to your son about the Maccabees and all he wants is Santa? Nothing like having your religion hijacked by another.

Aldous.

As someone who has grown up and lived in multi-cultural and multi-religious household, this is something I have always been aware of. I have always tried to respect the various beliefs of different members of my family. As I have grown older I have recoginized that I can carry this respect into my daily dealings with other people.

When speaking with someone whom I know to be celebrating a specific holiday, or practicing a specific religion I will try to acknoledge that into my holiday greeting eg Merry Christams or Happy Hanakuah. When dealing with someone that I’m not sure about I use Happy Holidays, recoginizing at the very least, as Americans this is a special time of year.

The issue is that Christmas is not the only holiday celebrated at this time of year. Almost every culture and religion have attached some sort of signifigance to this time of year. As a Christian you are more enclined to wish others a Merry Christmas, but whether purposefully or not it expresses a certain amount of disdain and contempt for anyone who is not celebrating Christmas.
Wishing someone a Happy Holidays on the otherhand is ackowleding the signifigance of this time of year that you share with others of different faiths and cultures.

Aldous, chanukah only became a big deal because the jewish kids felt bad about their christian friends getting presents around this time of the year. Otherwise, the holiday would not have been any more major thana sukkot, or other mid-level holidays. Having said that, I very much appriciate this, as it meant 8 nights of presents for me even december growing up!

Personally, I love xmas time even though i was raised jewish and am now an agnostic. Back when I lived in the Soviet Union we celebrated all the trappings of xmas without any religious aspects (it was all done on new years!). There was a tree- there were ornaments- there were presents- there was even santa (well it was “father winter”, but he looked the same). So every xmas i go to my girlfriend’s house and listen to xmas songs, partake in the yankee swap and have a great time. I also do the chanuhak thing with my family.

This is a fun holiday to be with loved ones and have fun… . If you want to use chanukah or quanza as the occasion to do this, thats just great. I know this time of the year means religion to many, but to me its just a great time where the stress of every day life fades to celebrating the good things about our lives.. HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

As someone that was raised a Catholic but holds no interest in organized religion, I for one, don’t understand all the furor about this issue.
I think those that are against the displays should get over it. This is the one holiday that cities actually put out displays for and I don’t see this as a bad thing.
If we of the non-religous public could give a little on this I think it could go a long way toward healing some of the rifts between the right and left.

I am not religious, but I enjoy Christmas. I have always seen it as a child’s holiday mostly. I like the messages of peace on earth and good will toward men, and find the Christmas Carol by Dickens instructive to men in general.

I’ve taken children to the Nutcracker and find it generally a warm loving holiday. A time to re-affirm bonds of love.

Teaching a child that Jesus is a tradition of the Christians and exlporing the history of Palestine and Judea are good things to teach and learn. I was raised with a skepticism of religion and blind faith, and taught that morality and ethics are not exclusive to nor even more prevalent in Chritians than any others.

Most of what you see around Chrstmas is strictly commercial anyway. If anyone were to be offended I think it might be the Christians with the pandering of their holiday. I can equally be enthused by the Winter Solstice. It isn’t a religious holiday to me, just a cultural celebration of Americans.

I love Christmas in Singapore! This year’s theme has something to do with Christmas fairies. I missed that part in the Bible, but it’s charming nonetheless.

Weekends I kick back at an outdoor cafe on Orchard Road, nurse a $7 glass of ice-cold Tiger beer, and watch all the oil-rich Arabs with their burkah-clad wives in tow on their shopping vacation taking digital pics of the dancing and singing Christmas trees.

Ahh, Christmas: the time of year when people of all races, faiths, and creeds get together to worship our Lord, Jesus Christ. It’s a beautiful thing. Have a good one!

The Happy Holidays vs Merry Christmas debate that has been whipped up recently is just another form of wrongful scaremongering along lines similar to Iraq possessing weapons of mass destruction, or Democrat’s wanting to do away with the bible, or Social Security being bankrupt.

Empty scares made to frighten people into thinking they are somehow endangered or under attack.
Pathetic and untrue.
The distasteful underbelly of this fear is prejudice - a perceived moral superiority that some Christians have decided makes them:
“nicer, friendlier, smiles more, cares about people”
While people who are not Christian are made:
“less friendly” and “more into himself” or herself, as the case may be.
But this is a ridiculous and superficial way to look at people.

What I find truly ironical is the form this attitude has recently taken. Christian Fundamentalists are currently boycotting Macy’s (and other stores) this season, even though these stores are glittering with seasonal finery, for not having the words Merry Christmas in their holiday displays - even though it was Macy’s who _invented_ Santa Claus in America!

For those who don’t know the story: Macy’s took St. Nicholas of Myra (in present day Turkey), who used to give anonymous donations of gold coins to people in need (his saint’s day has been Dec 6th since the Middle Ages), took the name the Dutch called him (this happened in New York remember - formerly known as New Amsterdam by the large number of Dutch who settled there) - which was Sint Klaas, made him a gluttonous and jolly American sporting a red velvet suit, and called him Santa Claus to help move their merchandise.

All I could think when I heard about this boycotting was: What the hell does spending money while shopping have to do with Religion?
And:
Why isn’t Happy Holiday’s and Season’s Greetings just as good a salutation? Seeing as both of them cover all the bases of what is being celebrated this time of year without offending anyone.
Why isn’t that thought of as a good thing?
A democratic thing.
An American thing happily born of a melting pot society.

But no, since the word Christ isn’t being injected, its been reduced to a threat upon the beleaguered and persecuted Christian MAJORITY of the country.
What petty, small-minded, nonsense.

Anyway, I’d like to wish all you Watchbloggers a Lovely Holiday and a Happy, Healthy New Year.
I’d also like to remind anyone who has forgotten that the best things in life come directly from the heart and don’t cost you a cent. A generous spirit and an open mind willing to work toward Peace On Earth - and a feeling of Goodwill towards men, women and children everywhere, are priceless gifts we can give to each other the whole world over.

Dawn, you’re so right. I am sick and tried of having to dance my way around other religions in this country. And don’t even get me started on Atheists. Until Jews, Muslims, Hindus (is that even a real religion?) and the like accept that this country is run by Christians, for Christians, I say, screw ‘em! I mean, it’s not like their god is the real god any way. I don’t think I can go another CHRISTMAS season having to act like other peoples feelings matter. That’s not what this time of year is about. This is the time of year when I get to start to a boycott of Macys until they print ‘Merry Christmas’ on all their seasonal merchandise. You know, the things we did back when we were kids, back before we had to acknowledge the existence of others. Back when Christmas meant something.

And I know what you mean about the people who say ‘Happy Holidays’. They are cold people. Those are the kind of people like my boss, who does volunteer work for Amnesty International. What an asshole! The guy CLAIMS to want to help people, but he wont even say ‘Merry Christmas’!!! How can you help people if you wont accept the fundmental correctness of the Christian faith?

Christians have church to fulfill their faith and culture, right?

And what Adrienne said.

The Real Story of Christmas

Some funny excerpts:

Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration. The festival began when Roman authorities chose “an enemy of the Roman people†to represent the “Lord of Misrule.†Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival’s conclusion, December 25th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman.

The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival�s observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits (still produced in some English and most German bakeries during the Christmas season).

The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.

Some of the most depraved customs of the Saturnalia carnival were intentionally revived by the Catholic Church in 1466 when Pope Paul II, for the amusement of his Roman citizens, forced Jews to race naked through the streets of the city. An eyewitness account reports, �Before they were to run, the Jews were richly fed, so as to make the race more difficult for them and at the same time more amusing for spectators. They ran� amid Rome�s taunting shrieks and peals of laughter, while the Holy Father stood upon a richly ornamented balcony and laughed heartily.”

I now wholeheartedly support Christians reclaiming the proud traditions of Christmas. Who is up for some naked door to door singing?

That was really strange. Is God the reason why murder is illegal? Don’t think so. Murder is illegal because we gave away the freedom to kill in order not to live fearing somebody would kill us. That’s Hobbes, I think, but I’m no philosophy scholar. And it’s really pessimistic to think that mankind needs a help from above to figure out that murder is bad.

I hope nobody generalizes the “2 male friends” story. Is there any serious research proving a correlation between rudeness and atheism? If there is, I’d like a link to that. If there’s not, personal opinions based on a sample of two individuals should be dismissed as inconclusive. A very good religious friend of mine wears glasses, but I can’t say that every religious person in the world is shortsighted. Well… No, just kidding.

Aldous,

The only thing that ‘occurred’ to me at that moment in time was the way he looked at me and said ‘Happy Holidays’ showing me that he was not being very tolerant. He wanted, in a quite obvious and deliberate way, to inform me that he was not about to say ‘Merry Christmas’. His reasons being his own and not willing to share them.
Up until that point - I have always responded with the same phrase spoken to me whether it be -Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays.
If someone says Happy Hannukah - I will say it back to them. It does not bother me one bit and may make them feel good for an instant.
That’s all that matters - it won’t kill anyone to say any greeting to anyone - we don’t have to believe in Jesus to say Merry Christmas to someone.
Just like your saying ’ Did it ever occur to you..’ So pleasant. So friendly. So tolerant.

We all have a lousy days, some lousy lives - it doesn’t mean that we can’t take 2 seconds to be kind to someone whether we believe as they do or not.

question??

If, by chance, an Atheist were to say ‘Merry Christmas’ just to be kind - (say the person is a cashier who doesn’t know) - will their head explode??
I doubt it —

If them saying Merry Christmas wont make their head explode, and you saying Happy Holidays wont make your head explode, why is the expectation that they should conform to your set of holiday standards and not you to theirs. Do you think some where this man is having the same discussion about you?

Whether one’s head explodes or not while saying something or behaving in a certain way is not a good measure of social or political policy.

Joseph Briggs:

“widespread intoxication”

Stiff eggnog, extra nutmeg, please…

“sexual license”

Now where is that mistletoe…

“consuming human-shaped biscuits”

Mmmmm, gingerbread people…

“Who is up for some naked door to door singing?”

Nah, its too cold, I’m keeping my woolies on. Well, at least I am until my Honey and I find a way to lawlessly pinch, then make off with the mistletoe!
Fa-La-La-La-La, La-La-La-La! ;^P

“Whether one’s head explodes or not while saying something or behaving in a certain way is not a good measure of social or political policy.”

LOL! Truer words were never spoken!

Justin,

Isn’t that what I said?
Since I said Merry Christmas first - he was the one who was not being polite - he didn’t just say ‘Happy Holidays’ - that was the difference.

Dawn
LOL! As an atheist, my head has yet to explode for saying Merry Christmas.

Your Merry Christmas friend is also the same type who will stop and give you a hand when its 20 below out and you have car troubles.
The other guy is the type who will drive on by saying someone else will help that poor guy out.

Today, you must respect and accept everything but you can’t ask for the same respect acceptance back.

“Since I said Merry Christmas first - he was the one who was not being polite - he didn’t just say ‘Happy Holidays’ - that was the difference.”

So what you’re saying is, its up to you to define the correct response. Happy Holidays didnt meet your requirements and therefore he was the one being rude.

“Your Merry Christmas friend is also the same type who will stop and give you a hand when its 20 below out and you have car troubles.
The other guy is the type who will drive on by saying someone else will help that poor guy out.”

Seeing as how you dont know the person, do you really feel like youre in a good place to judge them? Though, I will say, nothing says spirit of christ like making sweeping judgments of people you dont know.

“Today, you must respect and accept everything but you can’t ask for the same respect acceptance back.”

Why is up to this man to conform to Dawns sense of right and wrong and not the other way around? Why do you not expect Dawn to reform her greeting for him?

What kills me is that Christians think Christmas is a religious holiday. While many Christians do observe some of the rites that were invented to go along with the already existing celebration, we much more widely celebrate as a community the non-religious aspects: giving gifts, dragging in and decorating a tree, bright lights, shopping, mistletoe, snowmen, overindulging in food and spirits, fairy tales (Santa, reindeer brought to you by CocaCola (R)), caroling, etc. Then we get the “politically correct” police worrying about saying “Merry Christmas” (or about not saying “Merry Christmas”; whatever). It amuses this agnostic (define “God”).

p.s. “God” and “good” used to be the same word. Now there’s an etymological conundrum for religious and non-believers alike.

“Seeing as how you dont know the person, do you really feel like youre in a good place to judge them?”
- Sure, I can judge whoever I want. One guy sounds like a caring individual while the other sounds like a self serving ass who sluffs everything off onto the next guy or onto the govt.

“Though, I will say, nothing says spirit of christ like making sweeping judgments of people you dont know.”
- And the spirit of Christ affects me in what way? Sorry justin, wrong person to try the religious catch-22 on.

“Why is up to this man to conform to Dawns sense of right and wrong and not the other way around? Why do you not expect Dawn to reform her greeting for him?”
- I didn’t read where Dawn asked him to conform to anything. When she said Merry Christmas, he was probably offended in yet another make believe way designed to make him feel like a victim.
Dawn just stated the obvious, “Christians are just more caring than non-believers or Christian haters.”
She just chose to use alittle bit of tact when dealing with you people who preach tolerance but yet refuse to practice it.

A slippery assertion that “Christians are just more caring than non-believers or Christian haters.” By combining non-believers with people who, by definition, hate, the assertion becomes tautological. It says nothing, however, about non-believers, but to the weak mind seems to because of the clever construction. Thus is propaganda created. Nice work, Christians.

“Why is up to this man to conform to Dawns sense of right and wrong and not the other way around? Why do you not expect Dawn to reform her greeting for him?”
- I didn’t read where Dawn asked him to conform to anything. When she said Merry Christmas, he was probably offended in yet another make believe way designed to make him feel like a victim.
Dawn just stated the obvious, “Christians are just more caring than non-believers or Christian haters.”
She just chose to use alittle bit of tact when dealing with you people who preach tolerance but yet refuse to practice it.

————————————————————————-

I dont feel like I need to say anything else. Thanks.

oh and, kc and dawn: Happy Holidays.

“Thus is propaganda created. Nice work, Christians.”
- Hey, please give credit where credit is due. I am by no means a Christian, I’m an atheist and I wrote that. I just happen to RESPECT a persons wish to be a Christian.

Christmas songs, candy canes, saying Merry Christmas and Christmas traditions are now evil? What a load of crap.

When I first heard of this, I went out and bought bags of candy canes and told my kids to give them away at school and tell everyone Merry Christmas when they gave them away. I also told them to make sure they give them to all of their teachers and principals.
About 20 of us who are tired of the Christmas haters will be singing Christmas carrols on the school steps this Christmas eve.
My kids and I have also informed their teachers that they will not be involved with any of this kwanzaa crap either. It offends us. They are to do other school work or be sent home to learn something more important, such as tiddly winks or something.
Or maybe I will just try to tie the school district up in court with another dumb case based on a political agenda. Schools don’t need the money anyway do they?

Rocky
Thanks for the common sense post.

“My kids and I have also informed their teachers that they will not be involved with any of this kwanzaa crap either. It offends us.”

Wait, this is a joke right? You’re kidding…right? I was going to write up this whole long thing, and then I was like, wait, thats a joke.

Thanks for the help kctim.

I thought I was making it clear that I did NOT expect the ‘Happy Holidays’ man to say ‘Merry Christmas’, and that he was making it clear to me he would not say it.
It was his look and his tone that bothered me. Not the words themselves.
He may not be an atheist, he may be the man from mars for all I know.
He’s the man who said ‘Happy Holidays’ while making sure I knew that my ‘Merry Christmas’ meant nothing to him and never will.
By the way … he injected himself into a conversation I was having with the ‘Merry Christmas’ man by listening in before I said what I said ‘Merry Christmas’.

So, kctim, why would you construct the sentence like that, to combine “Christian haters” (I think you meant “Christian-haters”) and non-believers, the former being people who, by definition, hate, and the latter being people who simply don’t believe in Christianity (or anything? You weren’t clear)? Aren’t you a non-believer? Are you less caring than a Christian? Or do you just care about different things? I am a very confused agnostic at this point, but I guess that goes with the territory.

Mental
I meant people who hate Christians.
Yes, I am a non-believer. Yes, I think I probably am less caring than good Christians, especially where it concerns other people.
To many Christians, Christmas is all about Jesus and his life. For those of us not into that, Christmas used to be about giving alittle bit extra.
Helping, caring and sharing are just some of the things I love about Christmas. Why should it matter if those things are followed by a smiling person saying Merry Christmas?

Dawn
“Christmas is supposed to be a time for everyone to come together and love each other. A time set aside to remember the good things about us human beings. It should not be threatening to anyone.”

- Your post was excellent. You left politics out of it. I really respect the approach you took when writing it.
Your quote above, is what Christmas is all about for me and it used to be that way for the majority of the people.
Sadly, the only people who feel threatened by Christmas are the ones with a political agenda and that is wrong.

Mental Wimp:
“I am a very confused agnostic at this point, but I guess that goes with the territory.”

Being happily agnostic myself, I am really surprised that you would say this.
I feel that agnosticism is an extremely rational viewpoint, and I don’t understand how you could feel that confusion would automatically attend the choice.

Keeping an open mind over whether God exists or not, while admitting various forms of religious and non-religious philosophy for thought and reflection, is, in my opinion, a very rewarding endeavor, and can make a person just as sensitized to the possibility of God, or to the importance and beauty of mankind and the earth, as any religious person or atheist out there.
It is people who claim to know for sure one way or another whether God exists who can sometimes seem rather illogical, or close-minded, or domineering - because they honestly believe they have this ultimate and weighty question all sewn up, but without proof (other than anecdotal stories) to support their positions.

I’m of the agnostic school that follows this idea:
Philosophy Good, Dogma Bad.

This way, I believe I am capable of gaining whatever knowledge or wisdom that may be had, without all the restrictions of thought or mystical claptrap, and without having to join the (religion) club. I also refrain from harshly judging those turn their backs upon such philosophy, or who wish the (religion) club didn’t affect our society as greatly as it does - because I feel they are completely entitled to their own opinions.

That being said, I do think that people (whether they hold religious views or not) should try to be loving, generous and caring and sharing with each other - all the time (rather than especially at Christmastime).
I try to be this way, not just because God, if God exists, might indeed want me to, or because it really does make me feel good to be kind and helpful to other people, but for a purely reciprocal reason as well - the possibility that someday I may find myself needing the help that others are willing to generously offer from their hearts.
I have found that it is very easy to be kind and empathetic to others suffering, or need for assistance, when I keep this possibility in mind.

I don’t agree with kctim’s assertion that nonbelievers aren’t as good, kind, and helpful as religious people. I honestly think you can find just as many of those wonderful qualities among non-religious people. Just as I feel you will find an equal number among churchgoers within religious congregations who are judgmental, mean, petty, and stingy.
I try to listen to the statements people make which reflect their thoughts and feelings, as well as carefully consider their acts as individuals, in order to ascertain their true character.
By doing this, rather than superficially judging them by their faith or lack of faith, I have come to the opinion that the mere reading of religious texts, or the habitual attendance of religious services, does not automatically make someone a better person. And, on the other hand, I also haven’t found the lack of religious observance to automatically erase the humanitarian impulses in anyone.

I also don’t agree with those who are always trying to lump or push agnostics and atheists inside the column of Christian-hater.
Hate implies disrespect, a tendency toward violence against, and a willingness to undermine - and I honestly don’t believe that the majority of agnostics and atheists feel any of those things.
I know I certainly don’t.
Personally, the only thing I strongly dislike is when Christian’s try to impose their beliefs in a way that is disrespectful of other people’s faiths, or lack thereof.
That, I must admit, I am very antagonistic toward.
And this is why I am a very strong supporter of the first amendment, and of the idea of the Separation of Church and State - for as our founders well knew, it is the only fair and logical solution to the question of how Americans could coexist in Peace.

Okay, I’m stepping off my agnostic soapbox now…
And I have a question:
Mental Wimp, was your posting name an intentionally ironic choice? I ask because, despite your stated confusion, it and your posts seem to be a poor fit to each other.

Although the majority of Americans are Christian many are not. If a Muslim Friend of yours said Happy Ramadan! Would you say that back? Sure its easy for a Christian to say Happy Hanakka to a Jew and/or attend a Hanakka celebration because Hanakka could be celebrated as a Christian Holiday celebrating the Successful Rebelion by Israel against their rulers in the second century B.C., but Ramadan celebrates a time when a man went out into the desert, had visions and wrote the Koran. As a holiday that founded a religion that most Christians do not think highly of I would be suprised if this “Merry Christmas” Man would answer back Happy Ramadan if I said Happy Ramadan to him.

More on the foundations of Christmas…

The Psychedelic Secrets of Santa Claus

The sacred mushroom of [the tribal peoples of pre-Christian Northern Europe] was the red and white amanita muscaria mushroom, also known as “fly agaric.” These mushrooms are now commonly seen in books of fairy tales, and are usually associated with magic and fairies. This is because they contain potent hallucinogenic compounds, and were used by ancient peoples for insight and transcendental experiences.

Most of the major elements of the modern Christmas celebration, such as Santa Claus, Christmas trees, magical reindeer and the giving of gifts, are originally based upon the traditions surrounding the harvest and consumption of these most sacred mushrooms.

“The Psychedelic Secrets of Santa Claus”

Whoa, Briggs - those are some very bizarre factoids!

Santa was a magic-mushroom eating super-shaman of the Far North who enjoyed draping the pine trees with strands of his semen (eeeuw! like tinsel!), and drinking the mushroom-infused urine of his equally trippy reindeer friends (positively revolting!), while they in turn, liked drinking his?

Shocking, disgusting, barbaric… and yet, fascinating!

I think perhaps in honor of these truly bizarre-o druidic revelations, I’m going to include within the herbed-cornbread dressing of our holiday turkey an assortment of flavorful (though non-hallucinogenic) chopped mushrooms! :^)

I know I will never look at tinsel the same again.

justin, your first post was brilliant. Thanks!

Guys, are we arguing about semantics here?
You see fewer and fewer people that just make eye contact these days!

As for my original post.

Yes we non christians should make an effort to bend a little on these issues.
That being said, the “Christians” amoung us should act more Christlike, and make an effort not to belittle those that are not of their faith.

Let me be the first to say.

Merry, happy, whatever.

Not sure … but I think I understand one Atheists point of view now, maybe. She was on Scarborough last night, sorry I did not get her name.
She would say you men are white heterosexuals and that is why you don’t understand.
She is claiming a minority status and comparing herself to any other type of minority group.
She is being victimized -victimized- by having to look at and listen to Christmas celebrations when the words Christ, Holy, Jesus, etc. are involved.
She says that ‘we’ don’t know how horrible it is to be in her position. A minority victim.
That our children are being FORCED to sing Christmas Carols that have the Christian message in them - they are being victimized.
It’s a song.
I imagine she is in the same group that defends violent rap music and video games, R rated movies for kids, and the ‘F’ word on primetime TV because they are free speech and you don’t have to buy into it.
We choose to keep these things away from our kids, and it is our responsibilty to do so - not the governments. These things go on year round though.

What she wants …
A time of year that everyone can be included in. (At the same time she wants to take something away from a bigger majority. Would this not be victimizing the majority?)

This is where I decided that she does not know the meaning of Christmas.
It IS all inclusive.
No one has to convert to Christianity to have the good feelings of Christmas and join the celebration. No true believers are going around telling people that they cannot buy Christmas presents for their kids and other loved ones because they are not born again. No one is made to celebrate Christmas. (I was victimized for 12 years when they MADE me go to public school! Ha ha?)

Just a thought … it would be nice if this woman and any others who are against Christmas would just accept that a bigger majority of people like Nativity scenes and Christmas Carols and just let them do their thing.(It is not a crime and no one is being victimized unless they are telling themselves they are.)
Look at it this way … there are many more days of the year when there are absolutely no displays of pretty lights, Christmas Trees, Nativity scenes… those can be their days. That way they get all those days with no Christ and we get our Christmas.

-If I have a hard time with large people in skimpy bathing suits on the beach does that mean I am being victimized by something I don’t care to see? Should I file a law suit to have large people removed from the beach or make them put more clothes on?
Everyone is welcome on a PUBLIC Beach - Nativity scenes should be welcome at City Hall - if someone wants to put them there.
If you don’t like it, don’t look at it, just accept someone else likes the way it looks and leave it alone.

If Christian symbolism and whathaveyou is placed on public property with public money, you should also be willing to accept religious symbols and whatnot from other religions. My religion symbol for the Winter Soltice is five goats skulls placed on the dessicated corpses of seven ravens. Would you mind that next to your nativity scene?

Or instead, how about you use your private property to display whatever you want and I’ll use mine for mine? And there’s always church. Nobody is complaining about nativity scenes in front of churches, are they?

When I said that about placing a Nativity scene at City Hall I was actually meaning the scene was owned by a church or citizen. If they have lights on it maybe they should have a meter so they can pay their share of the electric bill.

Winter Soltice sounded okay to me until you say the symbol is … “five goats skulls placed on the dessicated corpses of seven ravens” … hope that’s a joke.
Okay … you can put it on the left side of the main walk into City Hall and mine can be on the right. Or should we flip a coin - who would toss it? who would choose heads or tails? maybe we can play rock,paper,scissors to decide that.
You can have a float in the parade same as I .. fair’s fair.

Who owns the nativity scene isn’t important if they are using public property to display it. It’s all about expressions of religion on government property.

Personally, I have no problems with any of it. But the issue matters to some, and they have a basis in law for their case(s).

I was kidding about the goats skulls and dessicated ravens corpses. We use chocolate bunny heads and those little yellow marshmallow tweeties these days (still kidding).

But the point is valid. And the compromise is viable. The government is allowed to use taxpayer funds to put up a nativity scene as long as it is also willing to put up equal funds for any other religious expression of the holiday. If not, then none.

Dawn
I’m afraid you are still missing the point.
It is not about what is fair, it is about degrading and persecuting the majority in order to make the minority happy.

Fair would be putting your scene next to the skulls as you suggested. But since 99% of the people who saw it would appreciate and respect your nativity scene and think the skulls were ridiculous, you can’t do it. It wouldn’t be fair. boo-hoo!

Who cares if Santa Claus, candy canes, christmas carols and nativity scenes bring happiness and joy to millions of children. Their happiness isn’t important, the political agenda is.

And no, I wasn’t joking justin!

kctim -

I just need a little clarification here. Your argument is that, because you find a certain holiday offencive (kwanzaa), you dont want government funded schools to celebrate it. But you do want them to celebrate the holiday you dont find offencive (christmas).

Is this accurate?

My question is …
Why can’t they just leave it alone? So what if it is public property … there may be a law they can stand on but it doesn’t mean they have to use it. If they have a display of there own they can put it up.
Public property - to me - means everbody’s property.
Even if it is a religious theme it still gets placed there by a citizen.
People just need to mellow out - sit back - relax - except that we are all different - variety used to be the spice of life - now the PC Police are after everything.

justin
No, that is not correct.
I do not expect schools to quit celebrating kwanza just because one person thinks it is worthless. It is my choice to not force my kids to celebrate it. The same should be done with christmas.
Instead, the PC people are forcing the views of the minority onto the views of the majority. kwanza is good but Christmas is bad?
If one is shown respect, the other should be also.

If Christmas is offensive to you, then don’t celebrate it. But don’t take away the right of others to celebrate.
By not allowing children to sing carols, give out candy canes or say Merry Christmas in schools, you are taking away their right to celebrate Christmas.

I think everyone here is missing Dawns point. To me, it wasn’t the fact that he said Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas but instead it was the manner in which he said it.
In an antagonizing and demeaning way to make sure she knew how he felt.
Dawns overview of the whole incident probably would have been different if had just offered his greeting in the same tone and manner in which she offered hers.
Instead, he chose to make a point instead of making a friend.

kctim,

That’s right.
It sounds to me like some think I should have asked first which is preferred and then give the correct holiday greeting.
I can just see all of us going around saying “I was going to say …but I should find out what you prefer first.”
Respect. I say Merry Christmas .. you say Happy Holidays … Happy Hanukah … whatever you want and then we know what each other prefers.
The next time (if we meet again) I should say the one they prefer and they say mine.
Make friends - not points.

The other night. I was speaking with 2 male friends. One wished me the best and I said ‘Merry Christmas. None of this Happy Holidays stuff - Merry Christmas.’

Nice job making friends and not points, Dawn.

Dawn:

“Public property - to me - means everbody’s property.”

Exactly. Everybody of all religions and everybody who isn’t religious at all. No one view, but all views protected - that is the American way.

“People just need to mellow out - sit back - relax - except that we are all different”

The same could be said to the Fundamentalist Christian Right, don’t you agree?
Do you think there is a chance that they will ever mellow out, sit back, relax, and accept that others have views that are different than their own?
The answer most likely is: No, they won’t. Instead, they will continue to try to impose their will upon the rest of the country.
The sad truth is, control freaks of _any stripe_ simply don’t know how to go with the flow.

”- variety used to be the spice of life - now the PC Police are after everything.”

I don’t think that anyone should act at all surprised by the strenuous opposition that has grown up around religious observances. I think it has grown in direct correlation with the attempts by the Fundamentalist Christian Right to influence and/or to insert their beliefs into the halls of government, the courthouses, the schools, planned parenthood, the media, stores and workplaces, and yes, the public squares too.
I for one, don’t have a problem with anyone wanting to celebrate their religions or their cultures, but I can definitely understand why many people have decided to strongly oppose the Christian Right - because they’re the ones who have been trying to tear down the wall of separation between church and state.

Still missing my point … I wasn’t even really talking to the ‘Happy Holidays Man’…. he stuck his nose in a conversation - so then I went ahead and included him … I could have told him to mind his own business but I didn’t. Instead I said what I said and got a rude response from someone I was being ‘polite’ to after he rudely listened in on a conversation he wasn’t in to begin with. He could have said something like ..”I prefer Happy Holidays’. I would have gladly said, ‘Okay. Happy Holidays.’
Now I am supposed to worry about someone’s feelings that was rude to me to begin with? What about him?
Someone who sticks their nose in a conversation that they weren’t invited into should not expect the people he rudely listened in on to ‘conform’ to his point of view without knowing what it is. Since he wasn’t talking - just eves dropping.
If he hadn’t been rude - I probably would not have done what I did.

As for the Christian right - how do you expect anyone to behave when they feel they are being attacked? I don’t think they struck the first blow.
If you don’t like Christmas - don’t celebrate it.

Dawn,
This guy really got your goat, didn’t he?

It sounded so different the way you first put it in your article:

“The other man looked straight at me and said ‘Happy Holidays’. I said ‘Merry Christmas’. We just looked at each other - both kind of nodded - and that was the end of it.”

That seemed fairly friendly to me. It was you who ended up writing your article and making comments on how Christians are nicer, friendlier and more caring people while people who aren’t are less so.

Anyway, if that guy was really so rude while making a federal case out of nothing, I’d have either laughed at him openly, or said something cutting like: Thanks, Ebenezer.

“As for the Christian right - how do you expect anyone to behave when they feel they are being attacked?”

How exactly are they being attacked?

“I don’t think they struck the first blow.”

Actually, they did. They started political action committees.

Dawn,
This from Wikipedia, by way of This Modern World.

“When Oliver Cromwell took over England in 1645, Christmas was cancelled as part of a Puritan effort to rid the country of decadence. This proved unpopular, and when Charles II was restored to the throne, he restored the celebration. The Pilgrims, a group of Puritanical English separatists who came to North America in 1620, also disapproved of Christmas, and as a result it was not a holiday in early America. The celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed from 1659 to 1681 in Boston, a prohibition enforced with a fine of five shillings. The people of the Jamestown settlement, on the other hand, celebrated the occasion freely. Christmas fell out of favor again after the American Revolution, as it was considered an “English custom”, and it was not declared a federal holiday in the United States until June 26, 1870.”

So much for the deeply religous holiday.

Dawn
You might as well give it up.
The only rights Christians have in todays world is the right to conform in order to make everybody else happy.
Don’t expect to be met half-way either. You must accept everything on their terms.
Compassion, understanding and working together are only applicable if you agree with them.
If a gay person is persecuted because they are gay, these people are the first to say its wrong.
If a christian is persecuted because they are christian these people will be the first to say who cares.
Rights are only important to those who agree with their own distorted views with no room for cooperation.

Adrienne,
“This guy really got your goat, didn’t he?”

Not really … ya see … this is the same man I spoke to in the Pizza Hut parking lot one evening … He was getting into his corvette with his pizzas, he said hi , I said hi. I said …”I see you fixed supper tonight.” I did say it with a smile and a laugh.
I received a look from him that showed he didn’t think I was very funny then either.
Maybe he just has a burr up his ass.

Tim, you make it sound like Christians are being thrown to the lions.
With regards to Tom Tomorrow, are we equating saying “Happy Holidays” to saying “Up yours Baby Jesus”. I don’t think so.
No one is denying folks the right to worship, all they are asking is that thay realize that this is not just a “Christian” country anymore.
The neo-con bullies have beaten this issue to a bloody pulp, and it doesn’t seem that they are going to let up any time soon.
In the words of that California philosipher,
“Can’t we all just get along?”.

The “Christian” right has a debt coming due from the Bush administration.
We’ll see what form it takes during the next four years.

kctim:
“If a christian is persecuted because they are christian these people will be the first to say who cares.
Rights are only important to those who agree with their own distorted views with no room for cooperation.”

You honestly have no idea what you’re talking about here.
Liberals love the fact that we have the ACLU - whose sole function is to do nothing but fight to protect the rights of everyone.
Many of their cases have to do with upholding the rights of religious people, did you know that?
But no, to hear it told by the conservatives (and many times right here in Watchblog), the ACLU is a demonic institution.

As I said in my first post in response to Dawn’s article, this perceived threat to religion was brought on by a lot of needless scaremongering by Fundamentalist Christian control freaks who have long been looking for the opportunity to hold the reins of political power - precisely so that they can tear down the wall of separation between church and state.
Our founders knew that we must not allow this to happen, which is the reason they spelled it out in no uncertain terms with the very first amendment.

In respect of the way they believe Rocky, yes I do think they are being thrown to the lions in a way.
Merry Christmas is just a greeting, wishing someone the best. But yet, employees and students are being told they can’t say it anymore.
A nativity scene is just art. But yet, you can’t place them anywhere on public property…schools, city halls etc.
But if you put a crucifix in a jar of piss, thats real art and you can display it in public property.
Christianity is a respected religion, but yet as seen on here, people mock its traditions, call its followers names and deem them to be basically second class citizens.
However, if a Christian were to do those very same things to a muslim, gay, woman or whatever, they would be driven out of town.

“No one is denying folks the right to worship, all they are asking is that thay realize that this is not just a “Christian” country anymore.”
- Yes it is and it was founded on christian principles.

“Can’t we all just get along?”
- Even though I hate quotes from coked up drug addicts, I will answer.
Yes, we can all get along but only if BOTH sides respect each other.
From what I’ve seen on here, Christmas and Christian haters have a long way to go.

kctim:
“Christianity is a respected religion, but yet as seen on here, people mock its traditions,”

No one has mocked the traditions of Christianity. All that was mocked here were things like Santa and flying reindeer - things which have nothing whatsoever to do with religion.

“call its followers names”

Who called anyone names? The closest anyone came to that was you - by calling kwanza “crap”.

“and deem them to be basically second class citizens.”

There really isn’t a bit of truth in any of this, you know.

“However, if a Christian were to do those very same things to a muslim, gay, woman or whatever, they would be driven out of town.”

What about the police having to make sure that in towns and cities all across this country the KKK still get to exercise their first amendment rights by marching down the street wearing swastikas and chanting messages of hate? Almost all those people consider themselves Christian’s - after all, they burn crosses, do they not?

>”No one is denying folks the right to worship, all they are >asking is that thay realize that this is not just a “Christian” >country anymore.”
” Yes it is”

So you think America can _only_ be Christian…, and that other religions don’t count, or something?

Why is it that I am beginning to doubt your claim of being an atheist?

“and it was founded on christian principles.”

Ooops, you forgot to add the secular writings of John Locke, and the Greeks and Romans - just as important!

“Yes, we can all get along but only if BOTH sides respect each other.”

Well, its also important to keep a sense of humor and not automatically jump to the conclusion that everyone is attacking you personally just because they don’t share your faith, or think exactly the same way that you do.

“From what I’ve seen on here, Christmas and Christian haters have a long way to go.”

I haven’t seen a single, solitary Christian-hater in this entire thread.

kctim, you say that this country was founded on Christian principles.

I think Jefferson was clear that this nation was secular in nature.

If you mean that English common law is based on Judeo Christian principles, I will ask you what you think those religions were based upon? Or did morality not exist before Christ?

Do you believe that Good Will Towards Men = Peace on Earth ?

Peace!

I would add here that ever since corporate America deemed that the Christmas season started on Holloween it has been hard for me to “get into” the spirit of things. Soon the “season” will begin before Labor Day.
Won’t that be nice?

I’m making a pinata of a head so I can watch it explode and spill candy canes all over. Happy Festivus!!!

God save us from the tyranny of religion over government.

Merry Christmas one and all.

The point of a greeting to another person is not to express what YOU believe, but to show caring for the person you are greeting. No one wants to take Christmas away from those who celebrate it—I certainly wouldn’t want to—but those of us who don’t celebrate that holiday and are inundated with all of its trappings from before Thanksgiving certainly appreciate someone who does not assume that we do. So, Merry Christmas to those who celebrate it, happy Chanukah to those who enjoyed that, Happy Kwanzaa, Eid al-Fitr, and all the other joyous days with which I’m unfamiliar. I wish us all a great 2005.

kctim:
Who called anyone names? The closest anyone came to that was you - by calling kwanza “crap”.
- And yet, that is probably the only thing that got your “goat” wasn’t it?
Not the demeaning references to the Santa as being a perverted druggie. Its ok to make fun of one thing but not question another?

There really isn’t a bit of truth in any of this, you know.
- Yeah, your right. Telling people what they can wear, were they can pray and etc… has nothing to do with their rights.

What about the police having to make sure that in towns and cities all across this country the KKK still get to exercise their first amendment rights by marching down the street wearing swastikas and chanting messages of hate? Almost all those people consider themselves Christian’s - after all, they burn crosses, do they not?
- And look at their support. Minimal to none. The is far greater support from extremists who believe a nativity scene somehow violates someones rights.

So you think America can _only_ be Christian…, and that other religions don’t count, or something?
- I never stated that we can “only” be Christian. I am only stating the obvious, the majority of Americans follow the Christian faith.

Why is it that I am beginning to doubt your claim of being an atheist?
- Because I don’t tow the liberal line of thinking. I actually am true to my beliefs that ALL Americans are equal, even Christians.

Ooops, you forgot to add the secular writings of John Locke, and the Greeks and Romans - just as important!
- But yet, you all choose to ONLY criticize the Christian aspects of our founders.

Well, its also important to keep a sense of humor and not automatically jump to the conclusion that everyone is attacking you personally just because they don’t share your faith, or think exactly the same way that you do.
- I have a great sense of humor and as long as nobody has stated they wanted to get rid of my getting great presents, I don’t feel as if I was attacked.

I haven’t seen a single, solitary Christian-hater in this entire thread.
- Try substituting gay, black, muslim, female or whatever in the place of Christian or Christmas and see if everything still seems just peachy.