Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

One might argue that European culture has mostly grown out of any need for nationalism, which is comforting and exciting but also has the down-side of tending toward xenophobia, intolerance, and a tendency to choose war as the first option.

I’m not denigrating the US; I believe it to be the best country in the world. I’m just saying the stats on Germans and French may not say exactly what you think they do.

The lack of religion in France is glaring. Each village is centered on a beautiful cathedral which has now been converted into a museum or something. They have clearly put their faith into their society, and your 15% church attendance figure might be generous.

I did see a lot of America in the U.K., at least where I was in the Manchester area. I was there just before holidays and most were talking about their planned trips to the U.S courtesy of the 1.8 pound dollar conversion. Many were heading out West or to California by the way. There is definitely still a bond there.

Given the blog below I’m hesitant to say it, but our trust in God differentiates us from at least those two countries.

oh goddamn…..

we have a good thing in the states….we all agree….

let’s move on from this “patrioturbation” and how cool we are….

and please….lets not get into this whole we’re cool cause of jesus….and comparing how much more pious we are to other countries…it’s a foolish debate to have….

Let’s not get a big head Jack. While I will not deny that this is an extraordinary nation, a nation that has changed the history of this world, and will continue to do so, I will quote the words of the servants the Romans use to put in the chariots right behind the victorious generals: Remember: Thou art mortal.

This country, for all it’s changed and done, is a country of fallible human beings and institutions that can go out of control, or fall into disrepair. I say this not to blot out hopes of a better future, but to lay out the challenges always present for any civilization to maintain its identity, maintain its integrity.

I don’t want us to become Europe. I want us to avoid its mistakes, and to pave our own path of culture, philosophy and art. But I want this country to remain the free-living, free-thinking nation that it is, and I don’t want us to take a political detour into tyranny or decay. I don’t want one generation of foolish and arrogant men to wreck it all. I had hopes, after 9/11 that Bush would not take that path, or approach it, that he would rise to the challenge.

Instead, he has managed, to even my surprise to fail in just those ways. Bush may find something romantic and strong about us standing against the world, but I look at that, and I see pragmatic opportunities missed. We don’t have to toe the European line. We just have to keep our disagreements from becoming discord. The harder we make it to influence policy in Europe against terrorism, the easier we make it on Osama to funnel his terrorists towards our shores. We don’t need hubris and contempt for those who desire peace, we need an eye for we can get them to contribute, for what we can get them to agree to. Who knows, if we entangle them enough, perhaps they’ll decide it’s in their interests to help us.

Problem is, we’ve already gone and stirred things up. If we had let Iraq alone, a bombing like that in Madrid could have solidified European policy behind us, showed them that an Olympian ideal of peace was not tenable. It has only solidified opinion against our war efforts instead, because the context is our chaos generating war in Iraq.

Bush has a problem: he expects loyalty where he should only expect the working out of mutual self-interest. He expects best friends when he should only expect good relations. The trouble is, in terms of relationships with other countries, Bush lets the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Here are a few things a European observed about America after he vistited—they draw a sharp contrast between the European and American views.

“There are many men of principle in both parties in America, but there is no party of principle.”

“I know of no country in which there is so little independence of mind and real freedom of discussion as in America.”

“In the United States, the majority undertakes to supply a multitude of ready-made opinions for the use of individuals, who are thus relieved from the necessity of forming opinions of their own.”

“In America the majority raises formidable barriers around the liberty of opinion; within these barriers an author may write what he pleases, but woe to him if he goes beyond them.”

The writer? The Frenchman Alexis de Tocqueville in 1835. Europeans have held this views of us since the beginning—long before Bush.

Haha! Martin, you just undermined Jacks premis that the whole world is in awe of our grand experiment. :)

Jack, your unabashed self-righteousness make me proud to be an American. Thanks. :)

BTW, that Transatlanic Trends 2004 document is a pretty good reference for Bush bashing. The Pew polls are interesting, too. I didn’t know that Bush had a 48% approval rating on Nov. 1. Thanks again. :)

AP

I don’t think the world is in awe of our experiment. In fact, the reverse has generally been the case, especially in European intellectual circles. Martin is right that this is nothing new for us. European intellectuals have been predicting the collapse of the U.S. experiment for more than 200 years. The question is not why the U.S. is so successful (although that is a valid question given that it evidently does not work in academic theory) but why it is different.

It is interesting that you took this to be self-righteousness. I am talking about what makes the U.S. different and this difference is evident to both our detractors and supporters. My own opinion is that being optimistic and individualistic is generally good (and I am sure that tone came through), but many people use exactly those characteristics as pejoratives. The same is true of our relegating to the private sector or volunteers many of the things done by governments in most other societies.

Our different habits and methods of organization are a source of misunderstanding abroad. For example, people ask, “why doesn’t the U.S. government support the arts?” Well, we do, but our method is decentralized and voluntary. Through the tax system, the U.S. Federal government subsidizes individual contributions and actually “spends” more per U.S capita than most European countries do. (The Federal government in effect “matches” about 25% of the contributions.) And it produces the added advantage of getting people involved as volunteers. But since the system takes the decisions out of the hands of central bureaucrats, few people in the U.S and even fewer elsewhere recognize what is happening. As Alexis de Tocqueville would have pointed out, this leads to products that appeal to “common” tastes, but it also means that impressive arts and culture will be available in Minneapolis or Denver, not just Washington or New York.

Jack
How dare you even think that America is better than the rest of the world. You should be ashamed.
Love of freedom? Proud to be an American? Love of country? and “gasp,” PATRIOTISM? This is nothing but nationalism. You must surely be a nazi type person.

“Why and how has the U.S. become what it is?”
- The people and our Constitution, which used to guarantee freedoms the rest of the world has never known.

“How can we make sure it continues to be so?”
- It used to be that being proud to be an American, putting America first, wrapping ourselves in our flag and loving America because we knew we were better than the rest of the world, was a good thing. Now it is wrong to put America above others.

Now, labels define who we are. Being Americans is no longer right. We have allowed ourselves to be split into groups. Asian-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, African-Americans, Jewish-Americans, Irish-Americans and so on. We must unite and become AMERICANS again. One nation. UNITED and not seperated.

Being “Proud to be an American” is not wrong. No matter what the socialist europeans say, being an American IS the greatest thing in the world.
Great post Jack.

Jack:

Keep up the good work. I don’t detect the note of self righteousness that some apparently want to see in your comments. I do see a pride in your country that is admirable. I don’t see you denigrating the rest of the world; rather, I see you lifting up your country as a good example.

Stephen:

If we had let Iraq alone, a bombing like that in Madrid could have solidified European policy behind us, showed them that an Olympian ideal of peace was not tenable.

Perhaps Europe missed events like the Khobar Towers bombing, the attack on the USS Cole, the Bali nightclub bombing, the attack on a Yemeni hotel killing tourists, an assassination attempt on Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, the WTC bombing in 1993 and a bombing of an Egyptian embassy in Pakistan in 1995, among others.

Those varied attacks did not seem to solidify European policy behind us. You’ll note that some of the attacks were pointed solely at the US, while others were not. I don’t know what, if anything, would ever solidify European policy behind us, as you suggest.

Its nice to look back and think of how things might have worked out differently. And it can be helpful as well. But in the face of the many varied attacks, lets not assume that one more attack (the Madrid bombing) would have been the straw to break the camel’s back.

kctim —

Come on now, no one on this post said it was wrong to be proud to be an American. In fact, most proclaimed their own love for the country. The sarcasm doesn’t help the discussion.

But, yes, I agree, the Constitution and what it stands for is what makes us great. That’s why so many people on WB insist that we stay true to it.

However, I don’t think love of country means blind devotion to the government. In fact, it’s our duty to keep a critical eye on those we’ve chosen to be our representatives in the world.

Love of country also doesn’t mean accepting that America knows everything. There’s nothing wrong with trying to learn from (not emulate) the experiences of other countries.

And lastly. All those labels do include one thing. Such and such-American. Why should one lose their whole identity when they come to this country? One can embrace the past AND the future at the same time.

Jack —

I’m a little confused. You talked about patriotism in your original post and individualism in one of your follow-ups as though you had mentioned it before. I’m not saying the two can’t exist in the same person at the same time, but you aren’t implying they’re symonymous, are you? It kind of sounds like you’re saying being an American means being an individualist.

I didn’t take from the article a note of self righteousness so much as asking what makes us different.

And that religion still plays a significant role in our public policy does make us different.

Also, where we live plays a role; we are much more spread-out than in Europe. If you take the TGV to Marseilles in France you will see mile after mile of farmland go by. Then, you will see a tightly populated, even cosmopolitan, village like Leon or Avignon.

Now contrast that with the U.S. Even in our large population centers many have moved to the suburbs and now even the x-burbs. And in rural, Middle-America people live loosely around towns but they are certainly more dispersed.

This affects a person politically. People who have to live in close proximity to each other are more agreeable to socialistic ideas. People who live in suburban and rural areas tend to be more independent.

It’s not that it is better or worse, or that Jesus is cool. It is that they are different.

Alejo

I was writing about the characteristics of Americans that (according to surveys) make us different from other nationalities. Americans are both more patriotic and more individualistic than most others. Perhaps American patriotism is influenced by its individualism, or the reverse, but I wasn’t making a particular connection and I don’t think there is a causal relationship.

George

You might be interested in a book called “City Life” by Witold Rybicki. It explains how and why American cities are the way they are and how they reflect different needs and goals.

CER
Give it time. The posts may not outright say it, but there will be posts saying something on it.

“blind devotion to the government”
Absolutely not, you are correct in saying it is our job to be alert.
“blind devotion to party” though is another thing. We have people going to canada, how is that being proud to be an American?

As there is no other form of govt like ours, we have nothing to learn from other countries when it concerns how we run our country. Learning from their mistakes though, would be wise. To bad we are “emulating” their mistakes.

What is wrong with a persons identity being that of being an American?
These labels keep people divided. They are used to buy votes and keep so-called leaders rich.
They also degrade the honor of being an American. Especially when a person is born in America, but still says they are ?-American.

Being an American is a privilege. We should not disrespect that fact. If we continue doing so, we will keep sliding towards being just another country, like canada or any of the european nations.

Jacks post is 100% correct. That is why we are the greatest country in the world.

I’m still waiting for the America is evil post.

If you think that those saying they’re moving to Canada are blind followers of the Democratic party, I suggest you reexamine their motives. Most of those people feel that the America they know and love - the America that is committed to protecting the rights of all citizens - is not the America they’re witnessing today. They’re leaving because they love America too much, not because they love being democrats.

Just because there are no governments like ours, doesn’t mean we can’t learn from the mistakes of others. The UK, France and other countries have dealt with terrorism for many years. We can look at their examples and learn what to do and what NOT to do, instead of trying to do it all over again for ourselves.

I agree, being an American is a great priviledge, and I think this country is the best place to live in the world, but in order to keep it that way, we have a responsibility to stay true to our professed ideals.

Leaving because they love America too much?
If I can put up with 8 years of clinton, they could put up with 8 years of Bush. Love of country is more important than love of party and that is all they care about.
Their socialist misconceptions of how America should be, is far different than how America is.
They should not be allowed to become citizens again if they decide to give up their citizenship.

I didn’t mean learning from other govt’s is wrong. Learning from them on how to run our govt is wrong. Everyday lessons are great to learn by. But they have no idea of what it is like to be an American or at how our govt should work.

Go to sorryeverybody.com if you want to see people who hate America. These people are ashamed of being an American and place more value on what the world, mostly europe, thinks about us, than what it truly means to be an American. Simply because Bush is not a Dem.

I do not classify all lefties as being un-American or un-patriotic. As long as they adhere to the Constitution, their views are completely valid and should be respected. Just as those on the rights should be.

Yes, leaving because they perceive that civil rights are being eroded, which is patently un-American. Did this happen during Clinton? Sure, people didn’t like Clinton, but everyone could count on him trending towards the middle. I don’t think people talking about leaving see that in the current administration.

People fear gay marriage bans, they fear the Patriot Act, they fear infringements of their rights, and thus they are running.

Personally, I don’t think asking for equal rights for all citizens as being socialist, in fact, I see it as what America stands for.

If you insist that they have motives that they don’t have and deafly accuse them of not loving their country, doesn’t that prove their point?

kctim —

Leaving because they love America too much? If I can put up with 8 years of clinton, they could put up with 8 years of Bush. Love of country is more important than love of party and that is all they care about.

Yes, because of love of America. After the election I thought about moving to Canada and even did some investigating on it, not because of sour grapes over who lost — you know I don’t have any kind of strong party identification — but because of what Bush proposes to do. It doesn’t get mentioned out loud much, but under Bush’s plan we will be militarily involved in the Middle East and Asia for generations to come. GENERATIONS, Tim. That means our kids and our grandchildren. I am NOT okay with that, and I simply do not see a fair comparison of Clinton and Bush on that level.

CER

We should learn as much as we can from our friends about how to fight terrorism, but some of the methods they can apply would be unconstitutional here in the U.S. In many ways, we would just be catching up with our European friends, whose police forces already have much more latitude in questioning suspects etc. Maybe we can learn from them, but I am not sure that is the lesson many people imply we should learn.

Jack —

Yes, that’s true. But I did say we shouldn’t emulate them necessarily, but merely to learn from their successes and mistakes and not merely disregard any wisdom we could gleen from their experiences because they’re not us.

CER
You are mistaken on your views of the 90s. People saw their rights eroding during that time also, they were just from the other side of the aisle. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, people on the right are better prepared and more willing to die for their rights and love of their country than people from the left. Instead of fleeing to canada, these people made a stand for America. Sure, they were executed, but their message still rings strong today.

People feared gun bans, they feared intolerance towards their religion, they feared infringements of their rights, and thus they took a stand for America.

“Personally, I don’t think asking for equal rights for all citizens as being socialist, in fact, I see it as what America stands for.”
- Then why be afraid to stand-up for America? By going to canada, people are saying they don’t love America enough to fight for her.

“If you insist that they have motives that they don’t have and deafly accuse them of not loving their country, doesn’t that prove their point?”
- Only if their point is that they have given up on America and is not worth fighting for.

Alejo
I love my family and home. When things are going rough and they are threatened, should I leave them? or should I stand next to my family and protect our way of life?

Do not compare Bush and clinton. That keeps you blind to the real problem: The govt has been destroying our country for a long time.
To often, people say “those gun nuts got what was coming to them” or “those commie left protesters deserved that” when instead, both sides should be saying, “hey, these peoples rights are being violated, we need to support them.”

Rights were taken away and innocent people were executed under clinton. Rights are being taken away and US soldiers are dying under Bush.
Meanwhile, people are only concerned with losing the rights THEY think are important, not all of our rights, and its just business as usual for the govt.

O Canada

The Canadians often point to their many human contributions to the U.S. As I recall, JK Galbraith is Canadian, so is Peter Jennings, Ann Murray, Lorne Green and even Captain James T. Kirk, as well as hundreds of other celebritites. Add to these the many thousands who have enriched American arts, culture and business. It is very impressive. They live in America now. Canada is a wonderful place to visit, as our fellow citizens will find out if they really carry out their threats to leave the U.S.

kctim:

You are mistaken on your views of the 90s. People saw their rights eroding during that time also, they were just from the other side of the aisle. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, people on the right are better prepared and more willing to die for their rights and love of their country than people from the left. Instead of fleeing to canada, these people made a stand for America. Sure, they were executed, but their message still rings strong today.

Who was executed? Dude, you make it sound like Clinton was executing Republicans.

Alejo
Please. I never meant to imply such a thing. These people were executed for exercising their beliefs.
Just like the tanks in LA, the ones at Ruby Ridge and Waco also proved their point.
Do not question the govt!

Ah, Waco and Ruby Ridge. I didn’t know who you were talking about. Were they killed for questioning the government?

kctim —

I will concede that people should stay and fight for their rights. I’m not saying that leaving for Canada is the right thing to do. All I was saying was that you should look at their motives more clearly and not dismiss those people as hating America. One can still love America even as she hates you. For example, wouldn’t you agree that for gay people wanting to marry, that Canada would be more attractive, seeing as how their marriages aren’t considered abominations there?

Depends on what is more important to a person I guess. All of their rights granted to them as Americans or just one right that they are not willing to fight for.

ALL of our rights are important, not just the party-line rights that people believe in now.

If people want to leave because of what they THINK may happen, let them. They are not true Americans who believe in their country.

Jacks title says it all….
WINNERS MAKE IT HAPPEN; LOSERS LET IT BE

America is not the greatest because the people sit back and let things be. We are the greatest because the people make things happen.

“Why and how has the U.S. become what it is?”

Why?

1. Breaking with tradition by coming here, rather than staying where you were.
2. Diversity of People

Both have fostered an environment of creativity, inventiveness and individuality. Also, great cuisine, art and music.

How?

These are the things that I think have made the U.S. what it is, or things I think have made big impressions on us.

1. Wonderful land filled with a bounty of natural resources
2. Began mercilessly encroaching into Native American Lands
3. Declaration of Rights against the Stamp Act
4. The Boston Tea Party - breaking monopoly and standing up against taxation without representation.
4. Thomas Paine - “Common Sense” inspired the Revolution.
5. The Revolutionary War
6. George Washington - Revolutionary General not above a dirty trick on Christmas, Denied offer of Kingship, First President.
7. The French - couldn’t have won the Revolution without them.
8. The Continental Congress
9. Thomas Jefferson - Declaration: All Men Are Created Equal, Life-Liberty-Pursuit of Happiness. Separation of Church and State. Louisiana Purchase.
10. The Constitutional Convention - The Constitution, Franklin warning us that what we were going to have was not a monarchy but “A Republic, if you can keep it.”
11. James Madison - The Bill of Rights
12. Lewis and Clark Expedition
13. The War of 1812
14. Monroe Doctrine
15. African Slave Labor
16. Abraham Lincoln - Emancipation Proclamation, assassination
17. Waves of Immigration
18. The Gold Rush
19 Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony - Women’s Suffrage
20. Thomas Edison’s Lightbulbs
21. Theodore Roosevelt - Started the Environmental Conservation Movement. Anti-Trust Laws.
22. The Wright Brothers
23. The Model T Ford
24. The Triangle Factory Fire - Started Labor Movement Struggles and Workplace Reforms.
25. World War I
26. Vaudeville
27. Jazz
28. Charles Lindberg’s Transatlantic Flight
29. Hollywood
30. The Great Depression and The Dust Bowl
31. Franklin D. Roosevelt - The New Deal
32. The Bombing of Pearl Harbor
33. World War II
34. Big Bands, Swing, Jump n’ Jive
35. D-day
36. Dropping Atomic Bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
37. Rock and Roll
38. The Korean War
39. The McCarthy Hearings
40. John F. Kennedy assassination
41. The Vietnam War
42. The Summer of Love
43. Dr. Martin Luther King - Civil Rights Movement, assassination
44. The Great Society Programs
45. First Moon Landing
46. Watergate
47. Nixon Impeachment
48. Punk Rock
49. Iranian Hostage Crisis
50. Rap Music
51. Iran Contra Hearings
52. Waco Debacle
53. Oklahoma City Bombing
54. Attempt to Impeach Clinton
55. 2000 Election Debacle
56. 9/11
57. War in Afghanistan
58. Iraq War - No WMD
59. 9/11 Commission
60. Abu Ghraib
61. ?

I’m sure I’ve probably forgotten some important stuff.

“How can we make sure it continues to be so?”

In my opinion:
By sticking by our founding principles, by protecting our constitutional rights, by fighting for civil rights for every American, by fighting monopoly’s and not letting big corporate interests get in the way of our health, wealth and well being, by only fighting wars when we have to, by being kind and tolerating each other in spite of our differences, and by eating, drinking, and having fun.

Adrienne

Nice list. I would include some different things, but I agree with most. I think you are weighted a little too much toward the present. About 40% of the list happened in my lifetime. I think the American character was fairly well formed before then. .

Every year there is a feature in most papers about what the current generation of college freshmen actually remembers. This year’s group will be born in 1987/88. They will have no memory of Ronald Reagan’s presidency and probably the first president they can actually recall will be Bill Clinton as he was going into his second term. As far as they know, computers have always been cheap and reasonably reliable and if they use a PC, they have never seen anything but Microsoft Windows. It is hard for them to recall a world without Internet. Waco, Iran Contra, even the Clinton impeachment means nothing to them, or maybe about as much as Nixon’s “Checkers” speech meant to me. Only the especially politically aware among them have any strong opinion on the 2000 election, which is fast going down the memory hole the way of the controversial elections of 1968 and 1960 already have. But they probably do know something about George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln.

Jack:
“Nice list. I would include some different things, but I agree with most”

I forgot to write the Civil War after listing Lincoln, and I forgot to add Polio and the Polio Vaccine, Baseball, AID’s, and can you believe it - The Internet! And I’m sure there are a lot more that will come to me.

“About 40% of the list happened in my lifetime. I think the American character was fairly well formed before then.”

Yeah, I tried to make it at least somewhat interesting. Nobody ever wants to hear about all the important legislation that happened during the more forgettable presidential administrations. :^)

Adrienne

You know, sometimes the smallest things have such a big impact. There are the obvious things like microprocessors. But I have a low tech/high tech mundane example. I have been running regularly for nearly 30 years. This is only possible because of improved running shoe technology. Before the Nike waffle trainers, an amateur athlete’s knees and ankles went out before they were 30 or 35. The spirit was willing, but the flesh (and bones) was weak. It is no exaggeration to say that today’s fit older people can thank their shoes.

Two bigger things I would add to the list that influenced American character in a long term and continuous way were the Northwest Ordinance and the Homestead Act. These literally shaped the human and environmental landscape everywhere outside the original states. Without these, I believe our west would have more closely resembled Brazil or Argentina. But we could make a very long list.

Jack:
“You know, sometimes the smallest things have such a big impact.”

I totally agree - another example like running shoes would be women’s clothing and undergarments. They’ve both come a long way and made a _huge_ difference in our lives.
There are lots of other things like that too: Harley Davidson choppers, Fender Guitars, The Brooklyn Bridge, The Empire State Building, or anything by Frank Lloyd Wright, Poetry from the Beat Generation, Edna St. Vincent Millay, Robert Frost, Carl Sandburg or even someone like Ambrose Bierce, or the Art of people like Edward Hopper, Andrew Wyeth, Georgia O’ Keefe, Jackson Pollack, Andy Warhol - you could go on and on with that kind of list.

“Two bigger things I would add to the list that influenced American character in a long term and continuous way were the Northwest Ordinance and the Homestead Act. These literally shaped the human and environmental landscape everywhere”

Yes, definitely. Both of those were enormously important. I’ve also thought of a few more - The Transcontinental Railroad, Route 66 and the Interstate Highway System, the WPA, the UN, The Kent State Shootings…

“we could make a very long list.”

We could. So many things shaped the country and the American character. Triumph and Failure, Comedy and Tragedy.

Jack, we also have to remember that we have been independent longer than most of the rest of the world.
Not having to rely on a monarchy or an emperor to do the thinking for us has had to have been an advantage to Americans.