Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

Liar.
Thief.
Murderer.
Just another dead terrorist.
Shows where the french priorities really are.

“Are the people of Palestine ready to move on?”
- I doubt it. They will probably choose another terrorist to be their “leader.” He will steal the money that is for the people, enrich his life and keep “his” people suffering. All this while blaming the evil US and israel. If they do this, then they deserve everything that happens.
I really hope they go the other route. Choose a real leader and work WITH israel to become their own country.

All we can do is hope.

Arafat lead a life of violence and perversion. Any tears shed for him ought to be shed for the fate of his soul and not for his absence from the world stage or political arena.

Arafat: an unofficial obituary - violence and perversion

this opt-ed article in the Boston Globe said it perfectly (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/11/11/arafat_the_monster/):

In a better world, the PLO chief would have met his end on a gallows, hanged for mass murder much as the Nazi chiefs were hanged at Nuremberg. In a better world, the French president would not have paid a visit to the bedside of such a monster. In a better world, George Bush” would not have said, on hearing the first reports that Arafat had died, “God bless his soul

and

How is it possible to reflect on Arafat’s most enduring legacy — the rise of modern terrorism — without recalling the legions of men, women, and children whose lives he and his followers destroyed? If Osama bin Laden were on his deathbed, would we neglect to mention all those he murdered on 9/11?

We have a perverse problem in our culture that we always want to see “both sides” of conflicts, and put moral equivalence to parties engaged in conflicts that do not affect directly our lives. Yet, as George W. Bush correctly pointed out a couple of years ago, and as Ronald Reagan pointed out several years before that, there is evil in the world. When people who use evil means to achieve evil ends finally die, we should not praise these thugs, glossing over the actual import of their lives. It is exactly upon their death that we should remind people how BAD they really were.

We forgot this ridiculous tendency after September 11, when we saw what evil was really like. Lets not re-learn the lesson of relativism today. Join me in rejecting these rosy retrospectives about a terrorist thug that was allowed a much more dignified death than he deserved.

Misha —

We have a perverse problem in our culture that we always want to see “both sides” of conflicts, and put moral equivalence to parties engaged in conflicts that do not affect directly our lives. Yet, as George W. Bush correctly pointed out a couple of years ago, and as Ronald Reagan pointed out several years before that, there is evil in the world. When people who use evil means to achieve evil ends finally die, we should not praise these thugs, glossing over the actual import of their lives. It is exactly upon their death that we should remind people how BAD they really were.

Well, it certainly does make it easier to kill people when you stick an “Evil” label on them.

Alejo- some people ought to be killed- Osama Bin Landen, for example (or at least put in a deap, dark jail cell for their rest of their lives so they cannot do evil things again). So yes, recognizing someone as evil makes it a lot easier (and more just) to take their life or liberty for the actions that made that comdemnation proper.

Misha —

How about the people who aren’t so obviously evil? Osama bin Laden’s second cousin by marriage, for example, or someone who joins the Iraqi insurgence because an American tank crushed his house and killed his family?

It is a factual determination based on what the person has actually done. So OSBL we can agree is evil- I would add Saddam and Arafat to that list. I think this is a word that should be reversed for those who do the most horrific things without any sort of justificaiton. So when Bush described the “Axis of evil” he was exactly correct. On a smaller basis, someone who rapes someone, or kills them for their purse- I have no problem calling them evil.

On a case like the one you mentioned, we need to look at the motivation. If the motivation was wanting to re-establish at totalitarian regime, then I would call the terrorist “insurgent” evil. If the motivation is as you described above, I would probably not apply that label (although I would still call them a terrorist).

But, you have already agreed with me on the most important point- there ARE evil people out there, its just a matter of where we draw the line.

How do you determine someone’s motivation when you’ve looking at them through crosshairs?

I haven’t agreed that evil exists, or at least I didn’t intend to. I didn’t put “evil” in quotes in my original post because I didn’t want you to dismiss me as a cultural relativist. I think there are motivations for almost everything anyone does, and presuming you know what they are and killing someone based on that is a big responsibility.

I favor killing OBL because he has said he was the one behind 9/11. I don’t need to say he’s Evil or that we’re Good in order to justify that. It’s simply a necessity to protect ourselves.

“How about the people who aren’t so obviously evil?”- i assumed you were agreeing with me that at least Osama was obviously evil- sorry if I was wrong.

I think we are justified in killing Osama BECAUSE did was the one behind 9/11, even if we were sure he would not carry out any more terrorist acts against us. Do you disagree with that? (after all, i think we would agree that we are justified in throwing someone in jail for their passed acts- regardless of their future dangerousness)

Misha —

Nope, I sure don’t disagree with that. I support the death penalty and making people pay the ultimate consequence for their actions. I’m just not comfortable with the application of easy labels like “Evil” because you have to have perfect trust in the person who’s applying them and I don’t believe anyone is deserving of that much trust.

We are in agreement, it appears! I do not have perfect trust in anyone’s judgement- and I agree with Bush’s labels of Axis of evil NOT because i trust him (which i do not) but because of the horrible things those regimes have done.

If Saddam, UBL, and Arafat are (were) not evil men what are they ? Misunderstood?

I agree that the Palestinians should be allowed to have their own piece of our great world.
I do not agree with using missiles and suicide bombers to try and achieve this goal.

I saw an interview with Rita Cosby where Arafat basically admitted he screwed up by not accepting the agreement that Clinton helped set up. I sit here trying to convince myself of what I heard him say - I also want to hear it again to make sure.
If he said what I think he said - or meant - then that needs to be shown to the Palestinian people - over and over until they realize it was the right way to go.
They also need to be told who told Arafat not to accept the agreement and why.
The wars in that region based on religion and religious land have got to stop!
I have never understood the people of that region justifying murder as being the ‘holy’ thing to do.It’s not like armies are fighting each other. It is suicide bombers and shoulder fired missiles being shot at random.

Today President Bush explained why he is making such a push for Democracy.
“Democracies don’t go to war with each other.”

How many conflicts are going on right now - ‘In the name of’ some religion and who has started them?

Democracies try to accept those of all religions and non-religions and expect them to get along despite these views.

If Saddam, UBL, and Arafat are (were) not evil men what are they ? Misunderstood?

I don’t know, Dawn. I haven’t met them. But if I had to choose a label I’d guess they’re probably psychopaths. But that’s just my opinion, because I think people who can cold-bloodedly murder hundreds or thousands of people can’t possibly be sane.

Arafat was a evil man whose passing from the scene was long overdue. It shows the craven nature of the Nobel Prize Committee to award him a peace prize and the corruption of the UN that their flags are at half mast today.

The Palestinian State will be one where Israeli Settlements will pockmark the landscape. In order to get from one part of Palestine to another, people will need to pass Israeli Checkpoints, ask for Israeli Permission to live anywhere. The Israelis will control the Borders, the Sea and the Airspace. The Israelis will control the amount of weapons in this Paletinian State. Israel will also control Palestine’s Immigration Policy. Israel will Hold all of the arable land as well as the water supply. All Palestinians will possess Israeli Identification Cards even in their own State.

This is the “Country” Ariel Sharon wants Palestinians to have.

Aldous.

You people have never been Occupied and Oppressed before. Before you condemn someone or something, try going there. There is a Museum in Israel that documents the Abuses inflicted upon Palestinians on a daily basis. Everything from Israeli Teenagers beating up Old Palestinian Women to Israeli Soldiers randomly firing on an Occupied Building because they are “Bored”. The Museum was built by former Israeli Soldiers who took photos and videos during their Tour. I heard these brave Israelis are now under investigation for “Treason”

The Myopic View of the American Public and Media is incredible. I suggest you read the Israeli Paper Haaretz for an unbiased report.

Aldous.

Also. What do you Republicans think of the 100,000 Iraqi Casualties our Ally the British estimated? What do you think will happen in Iraq afetr the Elections? What do you think of the Media Censorship there?

Conservatives seem to have forgotten Iraq. Please Answer.

Aldous.

Aldous- it is very easy to point to abuses and then say that anything done by the other side is thus justified. We have done some wrong things in the middle east- does that mean you believe 9/11 was justified or that Osama is not an evil man? My roomate in college was very much anti-isreal until 9/11 happen. On the next day he IMed me and said “now i understand.”

As for Iraq- the source of the casaulties is mostly the terrorists who are trying to destroy the Iraqis chance at having a democracy. Saddam himself killed millions of people- and taking him out, just like taking out has led to the death of thousands.

That does not make any of those deaths any less sad, but sometimes the right thing can only be accomplished through force, and force will lead to deaths- its a fact. Are you saying that ALL wars are unjustified because they will have civilian casaulties? If not, then just putting out the # of casulties does nothing to prove your point? (which, i guess, is that the Iraq war is going poorly? or that it was wrong? or that it is now wrong because of the 100,000 deaths?).

Saddam killed an estimated 300,000 people not the “millions” you stated. We are in the 100,000 mark now.

9/11 was done by at most 1,000 Terrorists not the Millions of Arabs.

FYI, the vast majority of Iraqi Casualties is done by airstrikes. 500 pound bombs in a major city will always kill bystanders.

Outside of World War 2 and Gulf War 1, can you point to me a “Good War”? There are THOUSANDS of Wars in human history but we only hear World War 2. Name another.

Aldous.

Aldous,
Why was WWII a ‘good war’? Why was Gulf War I a ‘good war’?

Aldous- the topic here is about Arafat, so how did you do your whole post while ignoring my responses about Arafat? I did NOT say Iraq was related to 9/11- read my post again. I was comparing Osama and ARAFAT- saying that your justification of Arafat’s murderous terrorism would be the same as justifying 9/11. Unless of course you think terrorism against Isrealis is ok, but terrorism against Americans is not.

I think the Korean war was a just war- i also think Kosovo was just. I think WWI was just. I think both Iraq wars were just. So thats every war the U.S. has been involved in in the last 100 years other than vietnam… None of them were wars of conquest that added to our holding- they were wars to protect freedom and our security (we won all of those wars and added nothing to our land-holdings… these are far different wars than what you are used to in the history you point to).

I think Terrorism against Israel is wrong. I also think what is being done to the Palestinians is wrong. The problem is people do not equate State Terrorism with Individual Terrorism. Is what is happening in Darfur State Terrorism? The Oppression and Subjucation of the Palestinians is systematic and deliberate. I doubt there will ever be Peace there. The Israelis want security but to get security they need to Possess Palestinian Land which the Palestinians will never give up.

I don’t know what a Good War is but the only war Bush ever talks about is WW2.

Misha. The US supported Death Squads in South America and they even supported Saddam in the 80’s against Iran. There are more kinds of War than the Conventional.

Aldous.

What you people fail to understand, with all this talk about “evil” men, is that many of them feel that America is evil and that is their motivation and their justification for their jihad against us.
This isn’t a black and white world folks.

Rocky —

That sounds like you’re talking about nuance. Remember, 51% of us prefer a simple, monosyllabic message.

Alejo,
even OK is two syllables.

And so is “hardwerk,” if you say it fast enough.