Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

Well Eric,
Congradulations are in order for the republican party for today. However, as an Independent, who use to be a republican, I will demand from Our Government do what is right and to be truthful to the American Public.

As far as Bush’s agenda goes, I will hold judgement on the issues and wait to see if the repiblican party is a party of the people or a party that still believes the God Almighty Dollar comes before all others.

Therefore, I personally will fight for the rights of the Individual over Big Business, Churches, and Government for that is the very best of America. Bush or any political leader must earn my respect not by talk, but through actions and deeds. So until Bush and the rest of the republican party proves themselve as an uniter, I will continue to debate them based on reality facts and truth. For religion is a tool of governing our society and unless any political party can live up to those standards they are doomed to fail. Remember, Jesus said “Judge not, for anything you judge you will be judged for.” Now, that the republican party has spoke out against gay marriage, will their own marriage be put into question considering 50%+ end up in deviorce?

See you later on the debates that face us all.

eric….

despite the win by bush, you have to admit the country is pretty evenly split…..he only won by a few million votes…which is a close race by any math….

but yes…he won…

my concern:

activist supreme court nominations…not activist the way you like to think of them, but ultra-conservative…to you that might be great..to me that seems dangerous.

i’m very concerned about the radical christian-right….i’m all for a moral society…but there are some people out there who think that gay people should be executed, that the bible should be taught in our public schools, that all abortion, even the kind where the mother was raped or could die from the pregnancy should be banned, etc….

you know…all those things us liberals live for….

my point is….if i even have one at this point im so angry….we are shifting….as a people we are shifting….to what i don’t know…but the radical right seem to be gaining influence….and some of us think thats just as bad as the radical left….

Eric,
My concern is that the Republicans will take the 1.5% difference in the vote count as a mandate to lead us further astray.
When will Bush lead the way, to fuel alternatives?
When will Bush lead the way, away from global warming?

It’s been said that in another thread that acording to IRS figures that 50% of the wage earners pay 96% of the taxes. Well My point would be that they also make more than 75% of the money.

eric……..

it’s true as a country we must find a common ground where we can meet. If not, how could we ever meet with other country when ours is in such a disray. But to say that Michael Moore movie shows America as being oppressive, imperialistic, racist, bigoted, and evil nation is being a little dramatic. No matter what you felt about some of the points he made, rather if they was true or not, you can’t deny what our troops said. Some of them wasn’t straight forward about it but you seen it in their eyes. Some of them don’t know anymore why their there/ or why they still are there.
But just like Mr. Schlatman, I will hold my tongue and wait to see if he’s going to clean up the mess he done made and do what’s important for every American and not just BIG BUSINESSES.

congrats to the GOP! no misunderstanding now…
foreign policy, the economy, the environment, health-care, etc is now *completely* the
GOP’s responsiblity. from nirvana to armageddon and every where in between, there is no hiding. as someone said thousands of times: “you can run but you can’t hide.”

RRRRRRRAAAAALLLLPPPPPPHHHHH!!!!!!!

1.5% does not equate to a mandate. Reagan in 84 was a mandate. Bush has a very divided nation to content with and any push to further his radical right wing agenda will only further to divide us. god, guns & gays is not a sustainable platform to run on.

using the rovian echo chamber approach where everything you try to pin on your opponent is really what you stand for, this party is the most divisive and partisan ever.

enjoy this moment of victory, savor it. because it will not last. it never does. the second term is always tougher than the first.

i agree with your points about the making our civilization better, but i doubt entirely that you have the intelligence to fully realize what you’ve committed yourself to.

basic economics tells us that we owe more and more to foreign debtors every single day, and today’s raising of the debt ceiling does not equate to a higher credit limit on our countries credit card. permanent tax cuts in a time of war are not a sustainable national economic policy and the country will be worse off for it.

fighting social battles are fun, and debating who’s going to heaven is cute, but ultimately society always moves towards acceptance (see immigrants, women, blacks, etc). it will be the same with gays, despite your best wishes. it is the way of the world.

the much more important issue is our country’s fiscal heatlh.
we have made a serious error by electing this fiscally liberal republican and the whole country will be worse for it sooner, rather than later.

Not a mandate ?? The GOP picks up seats in the Senate and House….Republican Governors increased.Have you looked at the red on the map of the USA for 2004 compared to 2000 ?? Clinton in 2 terms NEVER won the popular vote…This President set a record for popular vote…Not a mandate???

Eric,
There is nothing about this administration that the fundamentalist Christians should be proud about. There is no “good Samaritan” in George Bush. He has not taken care of God’s land, or God’s people, and he will have a harder time justifying his reality when he reaches the golden gates. Remember “whoever does unto the least of brothers does unto me”! Have the Christians forgotten what they have learned in their own Bible?

We have just voted in a government with no checks and balances, and no oversight. As we have already seen, this administration will do anything and everything to win and win at all costs and do it without the public’s knowledge. Neither would I condone a Democratic government running their term like this last one has, including the lawmakers who have attended their committee meetings without inviting the other party, only to come out and shove whatever they come out with in the face of their Democratic peers. Never in the history of the Senate has that ever happened. Oh, come on, it goes on and on, but I will not torture myself anymore. However, I will say that for the first time in this country’s modern history we have never experienced four years as has occurred and had to face the results of what this election brings on the American people. I can only pray for what they will do to the Seniors and those that come later, to the poor and the unemployed, to the disabled, to the military and especially the young people who will have to pay a heavy price for this brand of Christian Morality!

Shame on the Republicans to not look within and correct the coruptness that has crept into its party. Shame on you who laud what has gone before and to try to validate with Christianity and so called morality.

I am a church going Catholic and am in disbelief that this country has given this party of Republicans the label of MORALITY!

Eric, it is not how we get their that is the problem, it is the inevitable corruptness that has crept into the political process that is the problem. Be happy with your new one party government, for it is now what you have and what history will judge you for. Please do not ruin what 200 years of what this great country has built up. Unfortunately, I do not have optimistic hopes. We all wait and watch, and will judge!

i agree with maryann and cali…

if we somehow survive the next 4 years if the last 4 years are repeated….

i predict there will not be another GOP president in several generations and the GOP party as we know it today will collapse quickly and decisively.

actually mike, clinton won the popular vote in 1992 and 1996 so democrats won the popular vote the last three elections. nice try though. still doesn’t make it a mandate, the map looks almost exactly like 2000. nothing has changed. look at 1984’s map for evidence of a true mandate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election%2C_1984

bush, a sitting war president, only gained 8 electoral votes and 9 million popular votes, roughly the net increase in population over the 4 year period.

again, not a mandate. a victory for certain, but not mandate.

Like most of my friends, contemplating moving. Or finding a way to secede our beloved West Coast from the United States of Texas. Dreading that over the next four years our Commander and Thief will continue to perpetuate the cliché of the Ugly, Stupid American. All I can do as this point is take solace in the fact that Mr. Bush has inherited his own mess. I am sorry, world, for our apparent ignorance.

I find it amusing that all of these lefties are whining about how Republicans are gonna force their beliefs on them, like they wouldnt shove it down our throats if they were in power. BS, you know you would so cut the crap.

The truth is you are whining because you got your butt kicked period. Your ultra left wing agenda is a joke to mainstream americans and will continue to be. I hope you keep it up because it shows the TRUE Democratic Party beliefs instead of hiding it behind fake moderates like Willie Clinton.

Eric, the population keeps growing, hence voter numbers grow even if percentage remains the same. The only important number here is 3.5 million votes out of 120 million, that is the margin popular vote win. And that does not a mandate make, simply a small majority win.

The President I believe will make the effort to represent the interests of a great majority of Americans in his second term, if for no other reason than his handlers will try to pave the way for another Republican President in 2008. It is the insurance policy that will be needed if Iraq, the Economy of Homeland Defense falters in the next 4 years.

My greatest concern is the national debt as you know. Will be looking for the veto pen to get dusted off within the next year, without increasing American poverty rates.

The problem for many writers is that they don’t have much real contact with people on the other side of the fence. Americans don’t want to be bothered and they really don’t want to bother anybody else, but they worry that others are just waiting to impose their values so they launch preemptive strikes. This is especially true of people living in the red core. They feel invaded. How does this happen?

Take the example of forest protection. You are an ordinary guy living in a part of red America susceptible to forest fires. Your family has lived here about for generations. You used to keep the brush cleared in your county and the forest service allowed contractors to do the same in the neighboring forests and cattle were allowed to graze there, which kept the grass and the trees down. Now some city kids, dressed like country folk, but wearing very expensive boots and sunglasses, show up and tell you that your traditional ways are bad for the environment. They treat you like a troglodyte and tell you that you are part of the problem. You tell them to hit the road, but they come back with lawyers. Pretty soon you can’t graze your cattle or clear brush. When fires come and burn down your house, the city kids say it is a natural thing, to be welcomed. The lawyers tell you that you can’t rebuilt your house on its previous location. How enthusiastic are you about this? Your local elected authorities are powerless to protect you from the central bureaucrats. What do you do? You try to “take back” the federal government and make it work for you again. This is the essence of the culture wars. Fill in the issue of your choice, gay marriage, abortion, waste disposal etc.

Eric, Your candidate was one state and a few hundred thousand votes away from defeat. Reagan and Johnson were landslides. This? This is disappointing coming from a president who polled from 90% to 70% at one point during this first term. Your improvement is from losing the popular vote to winning it, from being handed an election in a state with a recount and a court decision to a rather close win.

Bush has failed to appeal to people across party lines. It is he who gave free reign to partisan impulses across the board. How can I tell? I don’t know, maybe it’s just calling people Massachussetts Liberals, and talking about people being the most liberal party member (based on a poll taken when he was absent a lot campaigning). Your side played just about every classic card on Democrats, from Cold War reminiscent charges of foreign policy weakness to the classic Tax hike argument.

I mean, this was basically brute force Liberal Bashing, combined with evangelical overextension.

In the end, you won because you succeeded in scaring independents away from Kerry, I think.

You want to gloat, fine. The rest of us in the RealWorld USA will recognize that this was a tight race that the Democrats came this close to winning.

I tell you what, Bush doesn’t show results in the next two years, the midterms will not be kind.

hey JOHN,

do NOT blame this on texas. don’t tell people you’re moving, just move. it’s not like anyone you’re leaving behind gets it anyway.

Jack-
As much as you people think your efforts are a matter of live and let live, the fact is your behaviors can be as intrusive and destructive as anything else.

Those cattle grazing? Let them graze too much and it can damage the grasslands permanently That cleared brush? Maybe fires are a natural part of the ecosystem, not merely and inconvenience to you and your forefathers. You talk of relationships to the land going back hundreds of years, well those forests might be a thousand times as ancient in those regards, and they had their way of doing things long before you had yours. The Seqouia trees, for example.

Nature’s way of clearing underbrush is a forest fire, burning up the underbrush, clearing out most of the small trees, leaving space for the larger, older trees, and often opening seed cases for certain kinds of trees. Now you may treat this northerner like some kind of pot smoking wierdo, but perhaps his experience and knowledge are actually greater than yours, and perhaps if you can get past your anti-intellectualism and lack of questioning of your ancestor’s wisdom and understanding of the situation, you and him can create the best of both worlds.

All around me, where I’m from, that brushclearing is more like Clearcutting, and it’s turning much of what use to be a lush, green area into an assortment of mudflats, Walmarts, strip malls, subdivision, and whatnot.

It’s not like it’s impossible to build more harmony into things. I live south of the Woodlands, for heaven’s sake. That’s their selling point.

The essence of the culture wars goes three ways. You have the people who try and preserve what time and nature tear apart, you have people who are perhaps too enraptured with change and social entropy, and then you have people like me, who recognize that the issues are more complex than for/against propositions, That in RealWorld, USA, it’s not always so Zero-Sum.

Jack, the truth is, that the forest service caused the problems with the forests.
Before the “Save the forrest at any cost”, the forests would take care of themselves. Sure there were fires set by lightning but they stayed mostly on the forest floor, burning out the shrubs and grasses that grew there adding fertilizer for the mature trees and saplings some of which need the fire to open their seed pods to germinate.
Along comes man.
The contractors clear cut the forests and now all the trees are the same age, which means that the fire doesn’t have as far to reach to get to the crowns of the trees.
My point is the best care we could give to the forests is to leave them alone. The forests on this planet survived for many millenia before man decided to protect them.
They’ll probably out live us if we give them a chance.

Yes, thank God we have a party in control of the WH and both Houses that never, ever yields to the temptation to give free reign to its most divisive and partisan impulses.

I’ve been talking to plenty of Democrats today, and I think there are actually some positive things going on—for them as well as us.

Of course they’re upset now. Some seem to be suffering almost physical pain. But this will pass, and I think Republicans and Democrats alike will eventually be sobered by the whole experience of this election. Many postive results could be on the horizon for everyone.

Bi-partisan observations:

Conservatives no longer need defend Bush or his actions out of fear that he’s being smeared unfairly in the attempt to unseat him. It will be easier for everyone to engage with—even to criticize when necessary—his ideas and actions. W

With no possibility of him running again, there is less invested in either personally attacking or defending him.

When, for example, Paul Krugman, Michael Moore, Anne Coulter, Rush Limbaugh or whoever—left or right—start trying to smear somebody, it simply won’t be imbued with the same importance by anyone. It simply doesn’t matter now like it did before, and whatever they say can be looked upon with a higher degree of dispassionate logic.

The left will no longer have grounds to say Bush is “unelected,” “illigitmate” or in anyway not the leader selected by the majority of Americans. The right in particular now has little to fear from such attacks, and can afford greater generosity to our political foes because we no longer fear or (rightly or wrongly) that they are just trying to win an election.

When they raise a legitimate point, it will be easier to hear and incorporate their views into our own. All of this, hopefully, will elevate discussion and depersonalize political debate.

David,

You’re right of course the population continues to grow. I wonder why no one ever brings that up in conjunction with the charge that Bush has lost more jobs than any President since Hoover? A statement that can be true but entirely misleading.

If you look at it another way Kerry also beat Reagan’s record number of popular votes and is in second place behind Bush.

Is it 2000 all over again? Seems like a whole bunch of Sore Loserman’s in here. No it was not a mandate, but it was a decisive victory in every phase of our government. With the pessimistic attitude that seems to be shared by those who cannot accept the fact that the majority of the United States has spoken, we will never prosper. Face it, even Bill and Hollywood couldn’t buy you the highest office in the land. By the way, it is ironic that Mr. Clinton the man responsible for not getting Osama when we had a real opportunity dare campaign with Kerry. Maybe he was trying to fix his mistake by using Kerry as his puppet. If you’re not with us, you’re not with us, but please stop crying… It’s over.

micheal,
Check out Our Governemt between 1972-76 and how the republibcans lost all respect in this country. Its time to put the partys moneu where its mouth has been. Actions and Deeds will tell weither or not they stay in power. Newt lasted less than fours years in power and he was respected. Can the leadership of the party withstand the countless investigations going on right now? We will see.

The only kind Bush-voting person I have seen on the blog today is Martin. Thank you Martin for being nice.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I am one of the people who feels like they are in physical pain. Kerry is such a good man. He is so kind, and had so much knowledge on so many issues. It pained me to see what was done to him.

I keep an open mind and wonder, is this how Republicans felt about Bush being disparaged? I bet it is. But I wonder if they would have felt as desperately alone if Kerry had been elected.

In gatherings today, the rest of us have said to each other “Maybe it’s not so bad. Maybe they’ll moderate their policies because of the closeness of the election.” But, really, Bush didn’t moderate his policies at all in 2000. Is he really going to do it now?

I think, maybe extremist republicans can win gracefully, not rub our noses in their win. Avoid partisan rancor. They’re the powerful ones, clearly, the ones who can afford to be magnanimous.

The first red article that comes up after the win is as divisive as ever.

My only hope is people like Martin.

Again, thank you.

Julia

paul said The truth is you are whining because you got your butt kicked period. Your ultra left wing agenda is a joke to mainstream americans and will continue to be.

I love this stuff. It’s so nice to see the healing begin. But kicked? With a difference of 2%? The liberal agenda is not out of the mainstream of America. We, as represented by 49% of the popular vote, are as mainstream as the “moral issues” right.

Julia Please-

Do you consider this article to be “divisive as ever?” It is nothing more than a re-cap of all of the mean spirited ideas put forward by people over in the blue column.

And as Eric stated this election was not a mandate of some theocratic ultra neo-con agenda but rather a referendum (I’m being nicer than Eric) on the Democratic Party in general.

What is the Democratic Party? Is it the party of the working man or woman, of the middle class? That’s what it once stood for, and its backbone was rural, middle America: Farmers, plant workers, NASCAR dads and Soccer moms. It once represented conservatives and liberals alike, and was the engine for much needed social change like woman’s rights, civil rights, and the need for some form of social safety net.

People who voted for Bush, me included, still believe in these things. I would love to see the Democratic Party return to its once prominent self. But until it can find its conservative voice instead of only pretending to have one during national elections (the “New Democrat” strategy) it will be increasingly relegated to minority status among the two parties.

This was not a victory for the Republicans; this was clearly a defeat for the current Democratic Party. There’s nothing hateful or divisive in pointing that out.

Or is the Democratic Party a progressive party that believes that compassion is another government program and that the church, or people who believe in it, have no place in public life? That God can be replaced in society by a wellfare state eager to take care of all of its children and provide for their every need?

This is the mirror that needs to be held up in, what some of you think, are the darkest of times. There need be no more pretending by electing national candidates who run right when the general election comes but who have long histories of progressive ideals.

Oops, I had actually cut those last 2 paragraphs out (although those are my thoughts).

George,

I was a gracious loser in 2000. I know plenty of moderate Republicans and I thought maybe George Bush wouldn’t be that bad, so I gave him a chance. Abruptly I found myself faced with the most extreme Republican agenda, across the board, that I’ve ever experienced. It’s easier to be gracious when you feel the other side has heard your concerns. Or that they will listen to them when you organize millions of people in a march.

Are republicans really going to lower themselves to: “This red column is just as divisive as the blue column?” How about taking the high road and not being divisive at all? How about being a gracious winner, and not telling the other party that they’re clearly useless and pointless and need to get their act together? How about instead of concentrating on the loser’s failings, concentrate instead on reaching across the divide and being open to the arguments of the other side. Are democrats saying cruel things? Of course. It’s just as clear that republicans are doing so.

There has been a lot of partisan hackery on these boards pre-election. I hold out hope, that now that the dust has settled, we will all try to act more mature.

I would like to reach across the divide, but reaching out shouldn’t mean having to support the Republican agenda like a drone. It shouldn’t mean having to shutup and smile and agree with everything republicans say.

Here’s a way I can reach across. There are thousands of disabled vets coming home from Iraq. Historically, they have never recieved the care they deserved. I know that Republicans love their soldiers, and I believe they want to do right by them. Please join me, and Chris Smith and Chet Edwards, in fighting for care for our disabled vets.
http://www.dav.org/voters/annual_legislative_report.html

Also, the other way I can reach across is pointing out the respectful way Republicans like Martin are speaking. Again Martin, thank you.

Julia

Julia-

Again I just think you are caught up in the competitive nature of partisan politics and not the real substance of what is going on. On an emotional level “I feel your pain” but I ask that you try to move past the emotional state.

Like the track runner who loses the race. At first the sting of losing is the only thought that crosses his mind. Then, upon reflection, he analyzes the race and sees that, had he worked on his start or his mid race speed instead of his stretch at the finish line, he might not have loss after all.

My point is, and I think it is Eric’s as well, is that the blame for losing this election and its subsequent emotional despair is less a function of what the GOP is doing and more a function of what the Democrats have done wrong. James Carville said the very thing early Tuesday night.

Don’t look to the red column to be good sports about the election or to somehow try to respect the sensitive or hurt feelings that a competitive loss can bring. Instead, look at why your side lost and determine if maybe there is something that might need changing in the message. It will be much more rewarding exercise I’m sure.

Stephen and Rocky

I know and love forests and believe I want to protect them and make them healthy as much as anyone else.

My point was not actually the forest; it was the arrogance of the outsiders that explains much of the red hostility. They rarely want to work with local interests. They search for legal technicalities to impose their views. Sometimes their views are well founded; often they are uninformed. Man lives in nature. Nothing can be done to change that and nothing should. We have to live with nature in order to be successful. Too often the ideology of left environmentalism is that man is bad and needs to separated out of nature.

One solution is private property. People want to protect what they own. A farmer or rancher whose family has lived and worked the land for a century cares a lot more about the future of his land and community than the kid from Berkeley on a summer internship at Earth First. The very best stewards of the environment are often hunters, who want to ensure healthy habitats in perpetuity. These guys would be natural allies of environmentalist if they were treated with respect.

I don’t think the left has to change anything except our grassroots tactics and efforts. It was a very close race. I don’t think we need to be taking advice from the right about what we need to do.

Then Joseph, please don’t complain when the Senate, House, and State capitals continue to swell with Republicans, or when a second rate Republican President gets re-elected.

Have you heard me complain?

Eric —

This is by far the best and most gracious post of yours that I’ve read. Thanks for being a good winner.

I should reiterate. There is nothing wrong with the liberal agenda. We are not out of the mainstream. Over 50 million people voted for Kerry. Defeat is transient and only meaningful insofar as it motivates us to continue to fight and fight harder. Losers see failure as the end. Winners see it as prelude to success.

Joseph
Both defeat and victory should make you reassess your agenda. I won’t repeat here what I wrote in “punishing the frat boy” about this same subject. I like it that Republicans have won, but I don’t want Democrats to be weakened so as not to be competitive. Democrats need to reassess their worldview. It isn’t working. With all the bad luck and media attacks working against Bush, you guys should have won a landslide.

You can take solace in the margin of victory, but not too much. No Democrat has managed to win a majority since 1976 and Republicans have been ratcheting up and consolidating their hold on our national institutions since then. Michael Barone points out that William McKinley beat William Jennings Bryan in 1896 by a similar margin and this assured Republican dominance of politics for 34 years. (not withstanding the Wilson interlude). 51% wins everything, then now and forever.

Are the voters irrational? I don’t know, but I heard a stock trader say somethign about markets that might apply Markets can be irrational. They always return to rationality, but that they can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. Democrats better figure out a way to address this before they go bankrupt.

Both defeat and victory should make you reassess your agenda. I won’t repeat here what I wrote in “punishing the frat boy” about this same subject. I like it that Republicans have won, but I don’t want Democrats to be weakened so as not to be competitive. Democrats need to reassess their worldview. It isn’t working. With all the bad luck and media attacks working against Bush, you guys should have won a landslide.

You can take solace in the margin of victory, but not too much. No Democrat has managed to win a majority since 1976 and Republicans have been ratcheting up and consolidating their hold on our national institutions since then. Michael Barone points out that William McKinley beat William Jennings Bryan in 1896 by a similar margin as Bush beat Kerry and this assured Republican dominance of politics for 34 years. (Not withstanding the Wilson interlude). 51% wins everything, now and forever.

Are the voters irrational? I don’t know, but I heard a stock trader say that markets always return to rationality, but that they can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. Democrats better figure out a way to address this before they go bankrupt.

Jack,

Your point is well made. I am aware that the exuberance of youth very often needs to be tempered by a few years of experience.

That said, I feel that it is important for Mr. Bush to pay attention to the long term needs of this country. He and his party should not take his re-election as a mandate to undo the checks and balances that made this country livable for all.
He will need to look past cronyism and put together an energy package that frees this country from it’s dependence on petroleum. I don’t mean just oil from the Middle East, I mean freedom from petroleum as a source of energy. There are renewable sources available, why aren’t we exploiting them?
If it’s a question of money, I think that big business has taken from this country long enough. It’s high time for them to start putting something back in. Moving jobs overseas may help the bottom line, but it doesn’t help the communities that have had their heart ripped out.

It’s time for the companies that take their manufacturing overseas to pay a tarrif to get their goods back in.

A contractor that pulls resorces from a forest should be required to undo the damage they did pulling the resources out.

We should stop being amazed when people are pissed off because we exploited their country’s resources for our own gain and then pay them pennies on the dollar.

We, the United States, need to be a responsible partner with all the countries of the world.

Together we need to find a way to leave the world in better shape than when we found it.

Joseph:

Both defeat and victory should make you reassess your agenda. I won’t repeat here what I wrote in “punishing the frat boy” about this same subject. I like it that Republicans have won, but I don’t want Democrats to be weakened so as not to be competitive. Democrats need to reassess their worldview. It isn’t working. With all the bad luck and media attacks working against Bush, you guys should have won a landslide.

You can take solace in the margin of victory, but not too much. No Democrat has managed to win a majority since 1976 and Republicans have been ratcheting up and consolidating their hold on our national institutions since then. Michael Barone points out that William McKinley beat William Jennings Bryan in 1896 by a similar margin as Bush beat Kerry and this assured Republican dominance of politics for 34 years. (Not withstanding the Wilson interlude). 51% wins everything, then, now and forever.

Are the voters irrational? I don’t know, but I heard a stock trader say that markets always return to rationality, but that they can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. Democrats better figure out a way to address this before they go bankrupt.

“a repudiation of a party that gave free reign to its most divisive and partisan impulses” is the comment that irritates me the most. Especially when the Republican party clearly gave free reign to its most divisive and partisan impulses in this election. I’ve admitted that my party succumbed to dirty politics. I certainly hope that the red column recognizes that it’s party was wallowing in it too. (http://www.factcheck.org)

It’s useless for me to repudiate dirty politics if the red side doesn’t also repudiate dirty politics.

So. Will you? If I call my party on their own lies, will you reciprocate and step up and do the same?

Here we go:
It is wrong to attack Bush by saying that he plans to “cut Social Security benefits by 30 to 45 percent.” Bush stated that he absolutely would not do that. And honestly, we have no idea what he plans to do. Let’s wait and see what plan he puts forth and debate it substantively when it arrives.

Alright, your turn. Give me an unfair statement from your own side.

Julia

Democrats need to reassess their worldview. It isn’t working.

I don’t buy it, Jack. The left’s agenda is fine. It apparently appeals to over 50 million voters.

Republicans have been ratcheting up and consolidating their hold on our national institutions since then.

This is much more to the point. The Dem apparatus is lacking. Not the platform.

I hope that the gloating as well as the indignant attitudes quell soon. They are both equally unattractive.

Being on the Bush side of the fence, I am disappointed by the references toward “stupidity”, “ignorance”, “evil”, etc. and the average (or some even specify the southern) voter. How incredibly sociopathic it is to consider your opinions to be so clearly righteous - especially after you learn that they are, by any margin, in the minority of your peers. Comically, these sentiments are combined with accusations of divisiveness. Passion and excitement are great ingredients for a strong argument - however they are also just a hair away from a temper tantrum.

As sure as the last election was questionably settled, this election cannot be judged in a vacuum. If the last election was such an unforgiveable travesty, you would think there would have been some demand for justice in 2004.

There is a problem with the democratic party’s effectiveness reaching the grassroots population. I believe it is because of the stereotyping of the average voter as “stupid” rubbing wrong against the advertised perception of the democratic party as the “intellectual choice.” If both stereotypes were true, then the Super Stars’ endorsements of Kerry combined with the bad press of our current administration would have worked. Just think of how many voters get their information from biased media sources. The droves of TV, Big screen, and newspaper political agendas vs. that of AM talk radio. What would happen to the numbers if the dems did not have the these heavy weights in their favor?

I once spoke to a fellow from New York that said he was genuinely suprised, when he looked out the window of the jet that brought him to Atlanta, to find a large urban city. He seriously thought that we were all out here chewing on straw and tending to the cattle. Hilarious.

This is truly aimed more at the ridiculous rantings of inflamed messengers and not the dems in general - but your inability to believe that a differing opinion is nothing more than certain destruction of this country and -gasp- the world as we know it sounds like a really bad political soap opera.

I have no doubts that this administration will make mistakes. I have no doubts that Bush will continue to entertain us with his public speaking skills. I strongly believe that he has a better plan for this country. If that makes you tast your own bile then you should seek anger management assistance.

evin us suthin’ folks gits tah vote sumtimes.

Sorry for so many posts of the same thing. As far as my computer told me, I lost touch with this site entirely. I guess it was getting through.

Jack I had the same experience.

Ready for a New Imperial World Order ?

By the way, it is ironic that Mr. Clinton the man responsible for not getting Osama when we had a real opportunity dare campaign with Kerry.

Michael,
Clinton was prepared to take out Osama in one shot with a surgical strike - he knew exactly where he was and only had to act. Why didn’t he? He didn’t have the support he needed to defend the act, because he was working with a Republican controlled Senate and House and was trying to survive the smear campaign that the Republicans and the religious right had launched against him. Lying about Monica Lewinsky was a mistake he made, albeit an understandable one, but it was in no way equivalent in severity to the mistake (and lies) Bush made in invading Iraq. If it weren’t for the Republican opposition to him Clinton no doubt would have taken out OBL (he at least listened to the intelligence saying that OBL was a threat), and we may still have some trade centers in NY today and a life with much less fear. It was FEAR that won Bush the election, not a mandate. ANY president in power during 9/11 would have had the same advantage Bush did, and no doubt would have been able to win the election by a landslide instead of by a dust mote.

I did want to comment on this subject . The majority of Americans are not as stupid as the Democratic party thinks we are , we just see through the crap . The Democratic party as lost sight of mainstream America . I am a moderate Republican . I do not agree with President Bush on some of the issues and most people I know do not either . I do have to say one thing I think they need to move on and get a life . Can Democrats and the population as a whole agree to disagree . No one agrees all the time on things . I have to wonder if they are just crying because some body else got elected other than Kerry . I also think , they can not accept it . I also think they are out of tune with the majority of Americans . I have to say though there are two Democrats that I would vote for , and that is Joe Liberman and Zell MIller . I really like those two . I like centerist as far as Democrats go . I do have to say I wish they would stop trying to divide our country more and pull together . The old saying get a life get over it . Bitterness , gets you no where it only hurts you and takes away from the quality in life . It only hurts the person . It affects your health no one else .

Robert,

Seriously… While trying to survive the smear campaign against his adultery and perjury, he didn’t have the support to go after Bin Laden.

Are you really arguing this point? Remember that his indescretions and dishonesty brought him to that point. However it got there - his personal life obstructed his duty to protect the people of this country. Using that as an excuse is absurd.

Chris,
I’m not using his Clinton’s personal indiscretions as an excuse for his not acting. What I’m saying is that Clinton did not have the luxury of a post 9/11 fear mentality and a majority of his party in the House and Senate to give him a carte-blanche to do whatever he wanted to do. Pre-emtive strike was even less acceptable pre 9/11 than it is now. The Rebublicans practically crucified him for his personal indiscretions - what do you think they would have done if he’d attacked Bin Laden without the approval of Congress? The Lewinsky witch hunt - regardless of whose fault it was - left him with no power to push an authorization through Congress or do anything else except wait for his term to end. Exactly what would you have had him do? At least he knew Al-Qaida was a threat - Bush truly has the rare luxury of not being held accountable for his actions, just as he’s avoided it all his life. Unfortunately, the rest of America will be held accountable.

Robert,

I appreciate your commentary.

I don’t believe the republican congress was ever asked to move against Bin Laden under Clinton. Bush went into Iraq without the support you say was necessary with a much less “publically” popular administration. Somehow, he was able to get reelected in the aftermath. He is successful in showing the people that he is going to do what his administration has decided is best for the country despite popular opinion. That may sound dangerous to you, but it is exactly what he was, and is, hired to do. That is, in part, where the dems failed in this election.

Clinton was rightfully roasted for his indescretions. He is a public figure that has to accept all that goes with it. His behavior was inexcusable and he never took responsibility for it. Clinton was President of the United States - he had plenty of power to do what he thought was right, unfortunately that was a difficult subject for him.

Hey guys,

Clinton’s an old subject. Let him go.

Your side played just about every classic card on Democrats, from Cold War reminiscent charges of foreign policy weakness to the classic Tax hike argument.

I mean, this was basically brute force Liberal Bashing, combined with evangelical overextension.

In the end, you won because you succeeded in scaring independents away from Kerry, I think.

Lets see, who was using name calling and scare tactics?

Al Gore - HE BETRAYED THIS COUNTRY, HE PLAYED ON OUR FEARS!!!!!

Dennis Kusinich - Bush is targeting civilians for assasination.

Howard Dean - Bush knew of 9-11 attacks before hand

John Kerry - Bush will cut your SS benefits by 40%
- tax breaks for sending jobs overseas - secret plan to institute a draft

Ted Kenedy - Lie after Lie after Lie after Lie

James Carville - Who knows what the hell he was saying. All I know is that it was loud and the veins poping on his forehead. I am sure he was “exaggerating” as well.

Michael Moore - There is not enough room on this site to list them all.

This was all out Conservative Bashing. Unfortunately for Kerry he and the Democratic party cuddled up to Michael Moore and those at the Kerry fund raiser like Whoopi Goldberg who made lude comments and jestures in reference to the Presidents name. After which Kerry was dumb enough to make the statement that these were the heart of the Democratic party.

Rocky,

Our discussion was not about Clinton it simply included him.

Chris,

Bush went into Iraq without the support you say was necessary with a much less “publically” popular administration. Somehow, he was able to get reelected in the aftermath.

Wrong. His admistration was still riding high on the popularity and support it got from being the one in power during 9/11. A support based on patriotism, not inherent worth. It’s ridiculous that with all the support he had Bush was still barely able to squeak by in this election. If it wasn’t for the “don’t change horses midstream” mentality he never would have survived the election. It’s truly ironic, since it’s his ambition and his that got us into this war in the first place.

He is successful in showing the people that he is going to do what his administration has decided is best for the country despite popular opinion. That may sound dangerous to you, but it is exactly what he was, and is, hired to do. That is, in part, where the dems failed in this election.

He is only successful in deceiving the public and the Congress into engaging in a war that was in no way urgent - and possibly wasn’t necessary at all. And I disagree - the president is not hired to ignore popular opinion, and the president is not hired to ignore expert opinion either. Bush has done both, and because of his isolation from the rest of the world and refusal to listen to anyone who disagrees with him he is in no position to decide what is best for the country.

Clinton was rightfully roasted for his indescretions. He is a public figure that has to accept all that goes with it. His behavior was inexcusable and he never took responsibility for it.

Exactly the same argument applies to Bush, except that his ‘indescretions’ are of a much more serious nature, and he is not being roasted because the carnivores that attacked Clinton have suddenly and mysteriously decided to become vegetarians during this administration.

Robert,

The 2000 election left a huge legitimacy issue (that is still lamented)and 9/11 did not make Dems all over America ralley around the Bush administration. That decision was controversial from the start. The beloved exit polls and supporters of Kerry called him the winner long before the race started - you are now saying that it is a disgrace that Bush didn’t win in a landslide.

How do I become well-educated enough to see through the deception that led this country and congress to elect Bush illegitimately, to follow him into an unnecessary war, to support him during the war, to fail to hold him responsible for his descretions, and to reelect him and the Republican party into every crevice of the government for a second term? Exactly what is it that dems posses that allows them to see what I cannot?

The President is not elected to represent the popular opinion - a true leader makes decisions based on his own and his administrations’ summation of an issue. Expert opinions come from all sides - some will feel ignored when a contrary decision is made. During the previous term he made some “publically” unpopular decisions that seem to be well-supported by the “unpublic.”

Bush has not escaped criticism from the “carnivores” at all. CNN, MSNBC, CBS (Dan Rather), 99.999% of Hollywood. Even John Travoltas portrayal of Clinton was endearing - a stark contrast to Michael Moores’ contrived concoction. For more, see Kirk’s post above.

The 2000 election left a huge legitimacy issue (that is still lamented)and 9/11 did not make Dems all over America ralley around the Bush administration.

All I can say is: 90% approval rating after 9/11. Any president would have had a similar approval rating at this time, and would have had the opportunity Bush did to push through an agenda that would never have succeeded otherwise. Most presidents would have managed to keep this approval rating at least above 50% by the time of the election - Bush did not.

How do I become well-educated enough to see through the deception that led this country and congress to elect Bush illegitimately, to follow him into an unnecessary war, to support him during the war, to fail to hold him responsible for his descretions, and to reelect him and the Republican party into every crevice of the government for a second term? Exactly what is it that dems posses that allows them to see what I cannot?

Nobody could know we were being deceived at first, but there’s strong evidence now. I’m not a Democrat, but I didn’t have much trouble finding this evidence. Watch something other than Fox news for starters, and look into the sources behind the rumors. Many media sources have reported on it (for example, the recent New York Times article about the aluminum tubes). And to use an extreme example, regardless of how you feel about the way Micheal Moore spins things he DOES list all his sources and they are not hard to follow up on - the facts are there. Unfortunately, the majority of the American people - while not stupid - are not willing to expend the time and effort necessary to do this research on their own and form their own opinions - they just follow the spin.

The President is not elected to represent the popular opinion - a true leader makes decisions based on his own and his administrations’ summation of an issue.

Yes, but the President’s and his administration’s summation of an issue should be based on what is in the best interests of the American people. The current administration’s decisions are not based on this - at least not primarily.

Bush has not escaped criticism from the “carnivores” at all.

Yes, Bush has received much criticim from many sources, and justly so, but the carnivores I’m referring to are the ones in Congress - the only ones with the power to truly hold him accountable. If Bush had to face a Congress similar to the one Clinton had to deal with there would have been many independent investigations launched already, and quite possibly an impeachment hearing. Instead, the many requests for investigations were quashed in Congress - or were launched but were watered down and far from independent.

copy of email to Mr.P Diddy and his no partisan

I saw you on tv and liked your cause to try and get more youngsters out to vote. What I didn’t like is how you said you were non partial and were interested in just getting people to vote, and that was fine. But when I read this I began to realize you are just a phony and was very dissapointed. If you want to be partial fine, but change your site because you are partial and instead of telling people to vote, tell who you support and that is the honest and fair way.
Mark William

yahoo

“I was a little reckless with my comments, to be honest,” the rapper known as P. Diddy, who sided with Kerry and organized a “Vote or Die” campaign aimed at getting young people to the polls, told MTV on election Day.He was referring his use of a vulgar call for supporters to vote Bush out of office. Mr.P Diddy
citizenchange.com

yahoo link
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041105/media_nm/election_hollywood_dc&cid=599&ncid=2043

copy of email to Mr.P Diddy and his no partisan

I saw you on tv and liked your cause to try and get more youngsters out to vote. What I didn’t like is how you said you were non partial and were interested in just getting people to vote, and that was fine. But when I read this I began to realize you are just a phony and was very dissapointed. If you want to be partial fine, but change your site because you are partial and instead of telling people to vote, tell who you support and that is the honest and fair way.
Mark William

yahoo

“I was a little reckless with my comments, to be honest,” the rapper known as P. Diddy, who sided with Kerry and organized a “Vote or Die” campaign aimed at getting young people to the polls, told MTV on election Day.He was referring his use of a vulgar call for supporters to vote Bush out of office. Mr.P Diddy
citizenchange.com

yahoo link
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041105/media_nm/election_hollywood_dc&cid=599&ncid=2043

Diddy is very fair

I saw you on tv and liked your cause to try and get more youngsters out to vote. What I didn’t like is how you said you were non partial and were interested in just getting people to vote, and that was fine. But when I read this I began to realize you are just a phony and was very dissapointed. If you want to be partial fine, but change your site because you are partial and instead of telling people to vote, tell who you support and that is the honest and fair way. info@citizenchange.com

yahoo

“I was a little reckless with my comments, to be honest,” the rapper known as P. Diddy, who sided with Kerry and organized a “Vote or Die” campaign aimed at getting young people to the polls, told MTV on election Day.He was referring his use of a vulgar call for supporters to vote Bush out of office.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041105/media_nm/election_hollywood_dc&cid=599&ncid=2043

The President is not elected to represent the popular opinion - a true leader makes decisions based on his own and his administrations’ summation of an issue.

Actually Bush was elected by popular opinion. A 51% popular opinion.

Wonderful post Eric.My sentiments exactly.
However,from the posts I’ve read by the liberals in all the threads,my guess is they will sit back and pout & continue taking hindsight potshots.Which is too bad because the nation needs input from all viewpoints.I understand how they feel about their side losing though.When Clinton won I was crushed,then he won again after people knew what kind of person he was. I was like,stunned.I was angry also, but leaving the country & suicide & the statements you listed above & more they have added since. Some of the posts I’ve read around this site since the election,some of these people have wacked out & moved from anger into blind hatred! Some even to the point of needing therapy.(mostly on the other threads)They set themselves up for the defeat by putting two of the most liberal guys in their party up.That would be like the right putting up Robertson & Keyes.
I voted for Bush,but I want the liberals to engage.If Bush reaches out toward the center I hope they reach back.As much as we need their input, if they don’t reach back I wouldn’t expect or want him to reach that far over to get them.After all, he did win!

“foreign policy, the economy, the environment, health-care, etc is now *completely* the
GOP’s responsiblity.” I hope not Tim

“Bush or any political leader must earn my respect not by talk, but through actions and deeds. So until Bush and the rest of the republican party proves themselve as an uniter, I will continue to debate them based on reality facts and truth.”
I know you will Henry!!I’m with ya!

“My greatest concern is the national debt as you know. Will be looking for the veto pen to get dusted off within the next year, without increasing American poverty rates.”
Ditto David

“I mean, this was basically brute force Liberal Bashing, combined with evangelical overextension.
In the end, you won because you succeeded in scaring independents away from Kerry, I think”
get real Steven,the liberals unloaded
every thing they had even made up stuff
(draft etc)definitely gave MOORE than
than they got!

I’ve been talking to plenty of Democrats today, and I think there are actually some positive things going on—for them as well as us.

“Of course they’re upset now. Some seem to be suffering almost physical pain. But this will pass, and I think Republicans and Democrats alike will eventually be sobered by the whole experience of this election. Many postive results could be on the horizon for everyone.”
Awesome post Martin!Read it 3 times.
I sure hope so!

“I keep an open mind and wonder, is this how Republicans felt about Bush being disparaged? I bet it is. But I wonder if they would have felt as desperately alone if Kerry had been elected.”
When Clinton got elected
That is exactly how we felt Julia. And we
did get it rubbed in our noses!That’s
what started it.

“Both defeat and victory should make you reassess your agenda.” Good stuff Jack

Hey joe,

Just what about Kerry and Edwards makes you think we put forth the most liberal members of our party?

http://www.factcheck.org/article284m.html

But we lost, and that’s how it is. But if you read the factcheck, and agree that he wasn’t a crazy insane liberal, then what’s the real reason Kerry lost?

Kirk, my point remains, are you saying that the red side rose above mud-slinging, name calling, and hysterical smear campaigning? Or are you engaging in the “We’re not morons, you morons.” argument. Who came first, Rush Limbaugh and his dittoheads, or Michael Moore? Which spreader of hatred is more hateful, Anne Coulter or Arrianna Huffington? Who is ever going to “win” this type of debate? I guess that’s why it keeps going on.

I keep on seeing comments from the red side that effectively say “we reject you because you don’t campaign well.” “We reject you because Michael Moore is evil.” This can’t be the real reasons you reject the party. Say the truth. Say what issues you rejected the democratic party on.

Do I reject the Republican party because of Rush Limbaugh or Anne Coulter? (Hmmm, interesting. My first reaction was, YES!… oooo, how I loathe them) :) But truthfully, the reason that I reject the republican party is because I think Reagonomics has been proven a failure. I think Republicans have a poor record on finding programs that reduce poverty, and I think McNamara, in his old age, has gotten it right on where we’ve gone right in foreign policy, and where we’ve gone wrong. And I think he’s absolutely right that we are repeating old mistakes in Iraq. And I knew that John Kerry agreed with him, and would do a better job.

For me, we got it right with the “Wise Men ” of the 40s, whose foreign policy was rooted in business and law. We should ressurect those policies.

At home, we should remember that the banning of child labor, and the implementation of unemployment compesation turned around the New York economy like no other policies had done before. No one objects to those policies now, but the republicans were dragged kicking and screaming to the table. Social Security effectively solved the problem of people being paid a wage that didn’t leave any room for retirement. Social Security has massively lowered the incidence of old age poverty, which just goes to show that most old people who were poor, were the used-up working poor.

If people aren’t paid livable wages, then they become a drain on society beause they can’t live on their wages. :)

Direct welfare is only 1% of your tax dollars. Social Security and Medicare is paid from pockets of workers, and only goes into pockets of workers and they are two of the biggest federal expenses. And incidentally, those dollars are still siphoned away from those programs and into others. Which others? Spending on the debt and spending on the military and spending on health care for the poor.

Universal health care would be a boon for the United States. Why?

1) I don’t know anyone who says we should turn away someone at the emergency room, so we already have universal healthcare, but in a piss poor manner (preventative care is much less expensive than treating someone in an emergency room)

2) No more worker strikes over health care, and not as much union strength because the top issue in unions is always health care (just pointing this out to republicans)

3) We spend 17% of our GDP on health care, and have sloppy coverage, and Canada spends 13% of its GDP on healthcare and covers everyone. AND Canadians have a longer life span than Americans.

4) Providing health care is a proven marker of reducing social ills such as teenage pregnancy, addiction to drugs, and family violence.

And that’s just for starters.

Something to think on.

Julia

As someone said above, we all want healthy, educated children, clean skies and rivers, jobs, freedom, enough food to eat, etc.

I’ve written down what I think the government should, and should not, be doing. Please see Rational Society. And please, read what the government should be doing before you read how I feel they’re doing.

I believe that many of us share these same goals. Is that correct? Do we all strive for very similar things? Where do our fundamental objectives overlap? And where must we disagree?

Thank you,
Chris

Julia said:

Hey joe,

Just what about Kerry and Edwards makes you think we put forth the most liberal members of our party? But we lost, and that’s how it is. But if you read the factcheck, and agree that he wasn’t a crazy insane liberal, then what’s the real reason Kerry lost?

Many reasons.I think he did try to have it both ways on all issues,therefore alienating him some on both sides.He never was firm on anything.
He never really seemed real.All the things he kept doing to appear like one of us.(windsurfing,snowboarding,hunting,etc.)how many times do you think he did any of these things in the last 10 years,or will do next year?It made him look like a prop.They made him look silly.
The swiftboat vets hurt him.The media wrote them off as uncredible saying that only 30 or so percent believe them. That is a lot of folks.
For me what really did it is more personal.My dad was in Korea when he was 15,then did 2 full tours in Vietnam.I graduated in 1974 & my draft card had 1A on it.But I remember kids in school asking me if my dad was over there killing babies.
Therefore I loathed the protesters.Reading his testamonies & repeating things he knew to be made up made me ill.Not one person called him a liar.
The liberal elite & press overdid it on the all out attack & desynthisized (sp) the public to seeing it as just partisan jarble.Dan Rather clinched that part.
Just my opinion,but with a close electoriate,it doesn’t take a whole lot of chipping away of votes to to find yourself on the wrong side.
Republicans made their share of mistakes also,but Bush stayed himself.And let’s not forget his ace in the hole. Laura! She just may have been the difference! How can you not love that classy First lady?