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Great article. I agree completely.

Responsible? Who? What?

But seriously, thank you for a sane posting.

I agree with you . I have strong views as do a number of other Americans . I can say I put nothing past some people who will do anything to win .

Voter Fraud and Suppression do exist.

Sproul & Associates, a Phoenix-based consulting organization that was hired by the RNC earlier this year and is headed up by the former executive director of the Arizona Republican Committee, Nathan Sproul. Three States have opened Criminal Investigations regarding the destruction of Registration Forms belonging to Democrats.

58,000 Absentee ballots go missing in Broward County, Florida! “Local 10 has learned that many as many as 58,000 ballots that were supposed to mailed out on Oct. 7 and 8 could be missing.”

You can easily google this. So you see Voter Fraud and Suppression is being done by the GOP.

Aldous.

Thanks for the reality check Aldous!!

Whenever, I see such expressions of a ‘bi-partisan olive branch’ offered, the ‘we’re all guilty of the same sin’, and the ‘let’s drop the subject for now/figure it all out civilly later’- it’s coming from the side most injured, wanting it all to go away!

Stipulate all you want J. Anthony, but suppression and fraud in this election has been documented as the last, desperate Republican campaign strategy. When you can bring a similar example of the antics committed by Sproul & Assoc., then we’ll have a sit down.

You’re not gonna win converts either by stating ‘I firmly believe Kerry can win by fraud.’ What evidence do you base this on? Where is it? Is this wishful thinking of a resigned Bush supporter?

By the way, the same election safeguards that caught Sproul, also caught ‘Mary Poppins’ in Ohio. The same system that caught the crack-for-registration scandal, caught the hundreds of fake registrants filed by the Young Republicans of Florida State Univ.

Dear Aldous:

re bitter pill:

I agree with your logic in general, but logic construction is never general; a logical syllogism is quite specific. The “I believe Kerry can win by fraud” statement undermines, logically cancels (false premise), and thereby betrays your intent. You want people to accept your otherwise benign, fluffy and lengthy argument albeit hiding a partisan zinger. Yawn.

Nice try; BTW, I agree with Don Imus’ prediction this morning: Kerry will win going away.

Suggested reading: “Bushisms” (available on Amazon) Here’s a quote: “Seldom is the question asked: “Is our children learning?”

This almost defies punctuation and mangles any grammatical sense, and you want to vote for this as your “leader”? Please explain logically. (Oh, there is much, much more to draw from if you are actually considering an explanation attempt).

In short, your argument seems to share the same ever convenient cognitive dissonance affliction as Mr. Bush. Unfortunately, such dissonance costs lives. Please reconsider your argument, realize your mistake, love your country, and vote Kerry!

All the Best,

Sharon

Dear Sharon:

re Your Post Above:

Is this Post directed to me? I have read it twice and can’t understand its relation to my original Post. I, personally, have no problem with Bush’s manner of speaking. Everyone has a quirk. Clinton has his women, Bush has this. I am against Bush because he seems to think that GOD is telling him what to do. I know history and when a guy says he is doing God’s Work it is usually just before he murders people. I am therefore voting for Kerry. I will be voting for the Tooth Fairy too if she stood a chance of beating Bush.

FYI, I am not a Bush Supporter.

All the Best,

Aldous.

I was stating my belief that in a close election John Kerry could win enough questionable votes to win the election. I recognize that the same thing is possible for Bush. Reasonable people can agree on this. There are dishonest people on both sides. Since the election will happen in the future, there is no evidence for this, only past experience. I really didn’t mean to insult Democrats, only assert that there are two points of view. Florida is a good example. Democrats see this as an example of voter suppression by Republicans. Republicans see it as an example of attempted voter fraud (and suppression of absentee ballots) by Democrats, that turned out to be unsuccessful. Both sides should recall that Janet Reno (a Florida native) searched for evidence of disenfranchisement and found nothing she could act on. Since Reno worked for Bill Clinton, and was not only a Democrat but also a partisan Democrat, Democrats should have more confidence in her report than Republicans do.

I was inspired to write this post after listening to the author of a book on election fraud. He had plenty of examples of both Republicans and Democrats. Since you asked for the Democratic proof, the most interesting was when Milwaukee TV station (WTMJ) taped Democratic campaign workers handing out small sums of money at a home for the mentally ill in Kenosha and then taking them into a separate room and giving them absentee ballots. I don’t know how many times this sort of thing has happened without someone taping it. The author cited statistics showing that homes for Alzheimer’s patients have higher voter participation than the general public.

Fraud and suppression are examples of illegal behavior. We should go after both and actually arrest and punish those who engage in those activities. It should not be a campaign strategy to make accusations that you don’t plan to back up after the elections with real charges.

The point of the post was to try to bring people together. I think Bush will win. He is ahead in most polls. But nobody can really say. I will accept a Kerry victory because I recognize the possibility that I could be wrong. I am just asking others to recognize the possibility of their own fallibility.

By the way, the book is called “Stealing Elections” by John Fund.

“voter fraud that turned out to be unsuccessful”?

Interesting you should put it that way. You do know that they recently found in a Republican Home a list of names belonging to African Americans they intend to “challenge” right? African Americans are almost always the victims of Republican Voter Suppression since the 1960’s. Ever wonder why they always vote Democratic despite the fact that so little is done for them? It is this Systemic Republican Disenfranchisement that drives them. Better to vote Democrat than side with those who cheat them.

Aldous.

I have a comment . It is sad that both sides sling mud like they do . I would rather hear them debate about the issues and not assassante someones character in the process . I am appaulled that people would break in to election offices and break windows and steal things ! I am also appaulled that people in some states have already filed law papers and the election has not even been held yet . The people should settle this come Tuesday , not lawyers and the courts . I have to wonder if people can be honest and let it be from the American people , instead of some judge pushing their will on the people . It also makes me question things like , where did Integrity go and strength of character go ? It makes me wonder sometimes .

Jack:

Your comments ring true. There are plenty of examples of “fraud” on both sides. That some are so partisan that they cannot accept any—ANY—rebuke of their party is really simplistic. And I know someone will respond to this last statement with some modification of the kindergarten chant—-“Nyah Nyah, thats what REPUBLICANS do.”

J. Anthony is 100% correct. Set the rules of the game BEFORE the game, and then play by those rules. If you allow rules changes during or after the game, then why bother having rules at all. I could beat Michael Jordan in one-on-one basketball, if you allow me to alter the rules of the game while we play. (Umm, Mike, sorry but you took TWO dribbles that time, and that’s not allowable….Umm Mike, sorry to inform you, but you arent allowed to score on dunks, jumpshots, or rebound tips—-its just not fair…)

See how easy it is to play that kind of game. Set the rules, play by the rules, and regardless of the outcome, Shut up with the whining.

One good thing about the 2000 election was that at least the whining didnt start until AFTER the election. This year we are forced to submit to pre-emptive whining.

I guess the one ray of light in these discussions is that Democrats are mostly worried that the Republicans will fail to accept Kerry, and vice-versa. I hope and expect we’ll all be responsible after the election, even if it is a surprise, and even if it is close. Many Democrats supported Bush for most of his presidency, and there was never any serious questions raised about his legitimacy.

But while we’re on the topic, here’s a short article on family values that everyone should be aware of, especially those that are flaming about the Blue team registering Mary Poppins.

Thanks Jack (J. Anthony) for an excellent debut article on WatchBlog. While I agree with your sentiments 100% in theory, in practice, I’ll have to take a wait and see attitude. I’m really hoping that the results next Tuesday are sufficiently decisive that it will render this issue moot.

Four years ago America actually did a pretty decent job of moving forward in spite of such a closely contested election. For all of the woulda-coulda-shouldas going around, anyone being honest about the thing had to admit that the election was a tie, and neither candidate could rightly claim anything close to a mandate. A national margin of half a million votes out of the millions cast didn’t constitute a miscarriage of justice that some Democrats (but not Gore) claimed. We live by the rules in place and move forward, the possibility of irregularities notwithstanding.

When you speak of the possibility of fraud, and resolving beforehand “to swallow that bitter pill and do what is better for America on November 3”, are you suggesting that we should ignore evidence of fraud brought to light which might in fact have turned the result around? Is that not tantamount to inviting fraud before the fact? I hope you will pardon us Democrats for just a little partisanship and exercising reasonable post-election scrutiny into possible misdeeds that might warrant recounts or investigations.

Unfortunately, Jack, it doesn’t matter what you and I think; this time if it’s close the lawyers of both sides are going to jump whether doing so is justifiable or not. I agree with you that is wrong, so I invite you to hope along with me that the result is more decisive than expected. You’re allowed to hope for a different winner, of course. ;-)

Walker et al

I would rather Kerry win by 5% than have a closely undertain election decided by lawyers because I love my country more than my politics.

An election is a practical, somewhat messy event. We just can’t expect perfection. In fact, that is why we have politics – to deal with the mess. If we all agreed and had perfect knowledge, we would just have laws and maybe courts.

If I was convinced of monumental fraud, I would protest the election. But I don’t expect that. I am convinced that I (I can’t speak for others) will suspect that fraud has been committed. This is the same on both sides. I am consciously trying to override my suspicions. If fraud or suppression is proved, someone should go to jail. Then I will believe it and protest. Otherwise both sides are just telling ghost stories.

That goes for this election. Next time, we have to work hard to improve the system to prevent fraud and the appearance of fraud. But let’s get through this one first.

> Let’s both sides resolve to swallow
> that bitter pill and do what is
> better for America on November 3.

All I can say is that I hope that wasn’t deliberate! :-)

-Cf

A friend of mine who is a dual citizen (canadian/U.S.) just tried to go submit her ballot via the U.S consolate in montreal.

The didnt let her vote, she has to go back.
The tried to scare her into thinking that she was going to be shipped back to florida.
The stuck her in a little room and made her sweat it out. Now she has to get her dad involved from florida and a whole bunch of legal mumbo-jumbo.
This when she has all of her paperwork and U.S> address info and everything.

The IS A LEGAL U.S. CITIZEN TRYING TO VOTE.
They even said something to the effect “The only reason your coming to vote was because she was in montreal” (Referring to John Kerry’s sister.)

If that aint partisan bullshit, i dont what is….

They are just transfering their anger to Democrats. Republicans Overseas are hardly a welcome sight anymore in any country. If a Republican is lucky, all he gets are ugly looks from foreigners. If he is unlucky, he gets a lot worse.

Many Democrats are flying home for the Election. I expect Bush will ground the Airlines to stop them.

Aldous.

Codoc

Americans abroad do not vote through consulates and embassies. They can’t register a new voter or provide state ballots. Foreign Service Officers stationed abroad are career employees specifically precluded from taking part in politics on USG premises. In my experience, most Foreign Service Officers vote Democratic. In any case, I don’t suppose your friend went in an announced she was voting Democratic, so how would they know?

As with any large bureaucracy, consulates can be impersonal. It is possible that your friend misunderstood or was misunderstood. She is making a very serious charge in impugning the honesty of a U.S. consular official. If she really believes it, I encourage her to seek legal redress.

Before that, however, check the webpage and make sure she did everything right. http://www.amcits.com/voting.asp

She just graduated in political science and seems to be pretty well informed. She had received lots of info in advance and seemed to be on top of it.
But i wouldnt worry about it, her family in florida will be making sure everything gets settled. One more florida vote that wont be for Bush

She has the duty to report it to the proper authorities - or else it didn’t happen.

“didn’t happen” is a pretty strong statement.
The authorities don’t define “reality”.
A lot of things happen that the “authorities” dont acknowledge, that doesnt mean they dont happen.
don’t get me wrong, I do see your point that it must be reported in order to be addressed/corrected……
It will be up to her as to what happens next.
to be continued……..

When I said it didn’t happen I meant it in both ways - legally and factually. There is a good chance your friend got it wrong.

If what she says is accurate, the person at the consulate broke the law and should be stopping from doing it again. Some of the things you told me just don’t make sense. The consulate can’t ship anybody back to the U.S. for example. In Canada, Canadian law applies. Every American official knows that and to say otherwise could provoke a diplomatic incident. Your friend could take that to the Canadian authorities.

She might not be a resident of Florida. Where an American living overseas is “Domiciled” is complicated. It is usually based on the last place the person lived. If her parents lived in New York when your friend moved to Canada, their subsequent move to Florida would not make her a resident of the Sunshine state. She is still a New Yorker. There can be important tax implication to a change of domicile too.

More likely, she just got a crabby employee and misunderstood. An important factor is whether she spoke to an American consular officer or a locally hired employee.

One more technicality. If she went in and said she was a Canadian citizen, she would recieve different information. The U.S. does not recognize dual citizenship - or more correctly, we ONLY recognize the American part. We specifically make no special provision for dual citizens. A person is American or not. My daughter was born in Brazil and is officially a citizen of Brazil. The U.S. doesn’t care unless she renouces her U.S. citizenship.

Damn right she has rights in canada and cant be “shipped back”.
I’m canadian, i know what our laws are.
But she is American and definately an official resident of florida.
All i have to say is:
Read into it however you want.
If you want to tell yourself that it was all a misunderstanding, then do that.
I find it funny, that you make a conclusion with out even asking additional questions.
“It must have been this….”
You know exactly what happened based on 2 postings.
You are speculating and trying to find a best case scenario, because we all know that it would be impossible for any sort of corruption in the U.S. gov’t. Whatever makes you sleep better at night
The probably isnt any racism or global warming either, must be the “left” making up more stories………

I have seen these things before. They are almost always the result of misunderstanding. That does not mean passions are not inflamed and feelings are not hurt. It is easy to accuse and even believe the accusations.

I didn’t ask for more details because I am not the proper authority to decide this. My experience tells me that there are many things that could have caused the problem and I was giving some of them.

Her accusation is very serious and could cost someone his/her job. I don’t like this sort of thing thrown around casually. It is not fair. She is saying someone is dishonest and implicating a particular indivdual. The official you mention is innocent until proven guilty. Your friend has the responsibility to bring it to the authorities if she really believes what she says. She has her choice of American or Canadian. If she will not do that, I don’t think she is lying, but probably confused, and I can only say again, it did not happen.

codco said, “A friend of mine who is a dual citizen (canadian/U.S.) just tried to go submit her ballot via the U.S consolate in montreal.”

Jack replied,

Americans abroad do not vote through consulates and embassies.

Jack, I think you misunderstood codco’s post. I submitted my absentee ballot at the American embassy in Singapore. They FedExed it back to California for me - for free, even. And they were very nice.

AP

I was just trying to explain the problem her friend might have had. No matter what the Consulate did, there was no way they could have been targeting her as a Democratic voter and it would not have mattered anyway. Your own experience must bear this out. She did something to make the staff suspicious. I just don’t take the story at face value.