Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

That’s because Senator Edwards was specifically addressing these “Swift Boat Veterans for Bush,” not all 527’s. Republicans (namely Mr. Bush himself) are trying to create an argument that Kerry-Edwards have not raised.

Bush has made statements claiming to disagree with the message of these “Swift Vets,” yet will not denounce their ads. Instead, he has tried to sneak in an element of his own agenda: Trying to get rid of groups like The Media Fund and MoveOn.org. That’s not the point.

Does President Bush truly disagree with what these liars have stated, or does he not? Why does President Bush refuse to condemn what he supposedly disagrees with, as John McCain has done?

I’ll tell you why: Because he’s picking good politics over good ethics.

This isn’t about “MoveOn.org,” or any other liberal 527’s. It’s about SBVFT. Stop trying to shift the focus of attention; if you have a problem with campaign finance law, take it up with Congress.

But this new tactic of trying to justify SBVFT by saying “but look at all 527s! Look at them!” doesn’t hold water. What’s in question is false claims of that individual group, and only that group.

Shem:

What’s in question is false claims of that individual group, and only that group.

This is NOT true, and I suspect you know it in your heart of hearts. The media is only questioning one group, while letting other groups say what they will.

Terry McAuliffe calls Bush an AWOL deserter, but is not asked to support his claim with facts. Michael Moore’s movie is full of editing tricks that seek to convey a message that is biased, yet the media stays silent.

Joe Wilson is found to be lying, yet the media whispers this to the public. Why has the media not been as aggressive in looking at Joe Wilson’s record as they have been in looking at Larry Thurlow’s?

The 527’s are all out there spouting off their own particular bias, yet you want us to only focus on ONE GROUP that is apparently hurting Kerry badly. You want to change the rules for that group, but not for the others.

Is MoveOn.org connected with Kerry and is SBVT connected to Bush? Certainly not in any official manner, but of course they are in ideology. That much is simply plainly obvious to even the most ignorant souls. So why focus only on the one that hurts the Democratic candidate while ignoring the one that hurts the Republican candidate.

This is the biggest flip flop of all. Dems want one set of rules for them and another for Republicans. And the media is helping them achieve that.

Please, call me when the motion picture comes out…..

The whining by the Kerry campaign this weekend just rubbed me the wrong way. If Kerry is the strong leader that he purports to be then why does he need Bush to save him from the Swiftvets? His ad calling for Bush to “stop the smear” is ridiculous.

I’ve thought all along that there was a better way to beat the Swiftvets and the Washington Post’s article yesterday was a perfect example. It leaves it as documented evidence verses eye-witness testimony taken 35 years later. That’s all Kerry needs.

Did you see the Paula Zahn town hall from Ohio this weekend? When Tad (?) from the Kerry campaign came on there and said that the Democrats weren’t running negative ads the whole placed laughed at him. Trying to blame Bush for the Swiftvets makes Kerry look like a weak cry baby, especially after all the dirt his side has been throwing.

And it just rubbed me the wrong way.

Look, if Kerry’s Charges are true, and there is coordination between the GOP and the SwiftVets, then you can pretty much add the GOPs own budget to that figure.

And no, it’s not a bias. Bias seems to be a catchphrase for what we do or do not want to hear. Call it what it is: A point of view. An opinion. A set of facts. If it keeps on being about the phantom menace of partisan politics leaking subliminally into your media, then you will limit yourself to sources that have a vested interest in having you believe their view of things, sometimes regardless of what the facts really are.

Besides, the SwiftVets have gotten plenty of opportunity to get their views out. They’ve been on just about every newscast I know, and what more, one did not have to be in a battleground state in order to see them, unlike MoveOn.Org.

Joe Wilson is found to be lying, yet the media whispers this to the public. Why has the media not been as aggressive in looking at Joe Wilson’s record as they have been in looking at Larry Thurlow’s?

The issue with Joe Wilson, is not what he recalled, but how he recalled it. The details he recalled while not discovered by him were discovered by the IAEA. This is a case of what is known as cryptomnesia, or hidden memory. Memory is reconstructive, and it doesn’t take much for a report he has read or heard about to combine in memory with his own aspects related to that same letter, so that he later recalls them as the same memory.

On the other hand, the problem with the SwiftVets is at best one of suggestibility, and at worst one of true bias, whether intentional or not. There is a tendency in people to remember things in a way that softens traumas, minimizes culpability, and tells our side of the story rather than somebody else.

The trick of it is that many of these guys made no protest or even supported Kerry when he ran for Senate in 1996. There’s a real question of why they would support him for Senate, and not Commander In Chief. I’d imagine there’s a difference in degree, but just who or what intervened in the meantime? Their stories seem to conveniently change as the facts the public understands change. When Citations are found, They scramble back and said Kerry wrote the report. When challenged on the authorship, they say these initials prove it. When the initials don’t belong to Kerry, and in fact are from a completely different place in the chain of command, well…

How am I supposed to look at that? Nobody’s story holds up that perfectly, that conveniently? You can hold up 240 or 240,000 vets, but if they did not all witness the events in question, it’s just their opinion, which they are entitled to, and we are entitled to disagree with. So far, you have witnesses who claim there was no gunfire, and others who remember such gunfire perfectly well. You also have a damage report on a vessel that sides with those who say there were gunshots. You have citations, written up by other SwiftVets, not Kerry, mentioning the gunfire. It goes on and on, and your only recourse is to tell me, Kerry lied, or Kerry wrote this, or Kerry fussed with the record. Hell, your only recourse is to call a decorated veteran and lifelong Republican a liar too.

Heck, you’re going to have to call Patrick Runyon and that other guy liars too, as they remember themselves and Kerry on the boat. Runyon recalls the SwiftVets asking him for his account, and returning it to him for signature, with part edited out that turned his recollection of gunfire into a probable denial of it.

The Partisanship of the group would not be an issue if it weren’t so fiercely denied. With so many fierce partisans on the group, so much funding coming from right-wing sources associated with the president, and the GOP putting the SwiftVets front and center in their rallies, it takes quite a great deal of either loyalty or gall to suggest that there is not some connection between the GOP and the SwiftVets.

Believe about Kerry what you will, but don’t for a moment believe that the SwiftVets are the David in the story. As far as I’m concern, they are the wolves in sheep’s clothing, and they have dishonored themselves by being a party to this kind of smear campaign.

Stephen you are close to my point. Nobody knows what to make of the Swiftvets other than they are pissed at Kerry and they remember things differently than all of the official documentation shows.

But to blame Bush for their attack or to try to get into answering their charges just draws more attention to the claims. When did this story make it into the major national media? When John Kerry brought attention to it by blaming Bush for the “smear”. Until then it was a small ad buy that was playing well on right radio and the Internet.

This is all just making it worse for Kerry, and he looks weak and ineffective by blaming Bush. He should listen to his good friend Bob Dole and just shut up about it.

Stephen:

You are really gonna stick with the cryptomnesia defense??? Now THAT is a good one—-I think it even beats the infamous “Twinkie” defense, in which a lawyer suggested that the sugar in Twinkies caused his client to committ a crime.

Stephen, I call it crypto-LYING. Theres no memory reconstruction when Wilson said that his wife was NEVER EVER involved in the decision to send him to Niger. That was a key question that he plain and simply lied about.

As far as the SwiftVets, there IS the fog of war issue. Just look at simple situations where multiple eyewitnesses have vastly different stories—and they are not in a war zone. So its safe to assume there are different recollections, and even at the time, different interpretations of what actually happened. There’s no benefit of instant replay to see the actual events.

That’s why the questions to Kerry should be limited to specifics, such as was he in Cambodia, as was “seared—-seared” into his memory, or was his memory faulty on that issue?

The medals etc are not the issue to me. What IS an issue is that Kerry’s entire chain of command says he is unfit for the Presidency. This can be said to be their opinion, rather than fact, but opinions are what we all base our votes on. We can see certain facts, and still have varying opinions on them. ( For instance, its a FACT that Clinton had oral sex with Monica—-yet there are many different OPINIONS on how to view that. Likewise, we KNOW Bush drank too much as a young man—-again there are different viewpoints on how to assess that information).

Kerry can simply release his records—ALL of them— and clear up the kinds of questions I have. Yet he chooses not to. Why be afraid of what the official record states? I dont understand why Thurlow wont release his records, and I certainly dont understand why Kerry wont release his own.

The question is NOT why the SwiftVets have this opinion. The question is NOT what their backgrounds are (rather varied actually). The question is this: Is what they have to say True?
And Kerry is the one who can put this all to rest, simply by releasing his records.

Eric:

You’re telling me that this group has put together TWO high-quality ads, running them each repeatedly in three battleground states and on cable TV. That they’ve been able to fly people to Washington for press conferences, make television appearances, write and publish books these last six months….for 150k???

No wait. The first ad buy alone cost $550,000. Am I missing something here? These guys really are amazing if they can buy (now) two ads for over a million bucks with 150k in receipts.

Please explain.

I heard George Soros announce that he would devote as much of his vast fortune as needed to defeat George Bush. When an audience member questioned this in light of his earlier advocacy of campaign reform and limiting the ability of single rich guys to buy elections, he replied that in his case it was all right because he was working for the public good. As I recall, those are almost his exact words. I laughed because I honestly thought was an attempt at self deprecating humor, but this was in Boston at a lecture hall at Northeastern University. It was no joke to the people around me, who gave me withering stares. They believed this man and he believed what he said. That is no joke; it is frightening. How someone like Soros, who made his money manipulating currency futures and usually doesn’t even live in the U.S. could become a hero to American “progressives” is beyond me. I guess all it takes is a lot of money and the willingness to deploy it to be a progressive these days. How interesting that Republicans support the small contributors while the Dems are want to remove the constraints on the super rich.

The 527 groups are a means to subvert campaign finance law. Until now, most of the money and most of the commercials have attacked the President. I admit that I watch a lot of TV and I read a lot. I have personally seen scores of anti-Bush ads thinly and sometime not so thinly disguised as public service. I have never seen the Swiftvets ad (except on news programs) and the only anti-Kerry ads in general that I have seen were paid for explicitly by the Republicans in the old fashioned, open and legal way. It is ironic that the Democrats are shocked, shocked to find outside groups running negative ads and predictable that they want to limit the scope of investigation to one small group. They would prefer that rich lawyers and fat cat financiers have open field the buy the election in peace and security.

Joe:

Serious question: If Kerry released every scrap of paper detailing every action he ever took related to Vietnam, including signing the SF180 and releasing his diaries, do you seriously believe the attacks on him would stop? My answer is that they would only intensify no matter what the records contained.

To this point, very few of the accusations against Kerry are based on anything more than the eyewitness accounts of people with a strong motivation to bring Kerry down. Most of these eyewitness accounts contradict the official records of the incidents. By providing these opponents, whose single stated objective is to prevent John Kerry from becoming president, with more fodder for attacks on his service to the military, Kerry would only be opening himself up to more of the same.

Terry McAuliffe calls Bush an AWOL deserter, but is not asked to support his claim with facts

joe, all Bush has to do is provide some documentation, or even a single witness, to prove that allegation is not true. Four years and an unclaimed $10,000 reward for info later, neither has materialized.

Joe Wilson is found to be lying, yet the media whispers this to the public

I’ve seen it in the media, but it’s irrelevent to the fact that Bush cited WMD evidence he knew to be incorrect in his state of the union address. Whether or not Wilson’s wife recommended him for the Nigeria trip isn’t even part of the story.

The 527’s are all out there spouting off their own particular bias, yet you want us to only focus on ONE GROUP

The ‘swift boat liars for Bush’ were coordinating with the Bush campaign. Bush’s Veterans Coordinator, Ken Cordier, actually appears in the ad!!! It’s illegal. Bush knows it. That’s why he fired the guy.

And I find it hypocritical and hilarious that the “campaign funds equal free speech” Bush administration is calling for a muzzle on the 527s - “‘The president has made it repeatedly clear that he wants to see an end to all’ advertising from outside groups.” That must be real disappointing for Martin and Eric who are both big believers in that doctrine.

How interesting that Republicans support the small contributors while the Dems are want to remove the constraints on the super rich.

Hahahahaha! Poor little rich GOP. Please!

I’m curious though. I haven’t actually seen an ad that makes a personal attack on Bush yet. The ‘swift boat shills for Bush’ are putting forth a cock & bull story and a bunch of opinion in a personal attack on Kerry. What’s the analogous attack on Bush? All the anti-Bush ads I’ve seen so far focus on Bush’s policy.

Let’s see, left wing attack group ‘closely aligned with the Kerry campaign’ puts out exclusively anti-Bush propaganda including commercials featuring Bush and ‘der Fuhrer’.

You’re back to trying to hammer this GOP talking point, Eric? One more time for the hearing impaired: the Bush = Hitler ads were not put out by moveon.org, they were contest submissions and were never aired, were quickly removed from the moveon.org website, and soon were only visible on republican websites which felt the need to mirror the ad in order to try to associate that kind of thinking with all liberals in order to discredit both moveon.org in particular and liberals in general.

Just for the sake of clarity:

Moveon.org is not a 527, but rather a Political Action Committee (PAC)

Swiftboat Veterans are a 527 group.

The two are similar, but there are legal differences. If you’re interested, I found an article [here] that briefly contrasts them, or you can easily get a more comprehensive definition for either group w/ a bit of googling.

Let me just repeat what Jarin said because people like Sean Hannity never get this fact right:

MoveOn.org never ran a television ad comparing Bush to Hitler.

Peezee-

I think MoveOn has both a PAC and a 527 using the MoveOn name.

Where are the liberals on this topic?

You’ve let the conservatives hijack this issue, just like they’re doing in the media.

Listen, this topic is NOT a 527 issue. It is very clear that 527 funding is an issue that requires further debate in the future, but what these 527 groups are doing is perfectly legal at this point in time. I think the SBVFT are well within their rights to do what they’re doing and I don’t apply any double standard to them vs. MoveOn and the like.

The real issue here is that when a defamatory ad comes out, the candidate who is victimized has the right to call for the denunciation of that ad by his opponent. Kerry has extended that courtesy to Bush. Bush has not returned the favor. It’s classless and is very symptomatic of the “politics at all costs” smear campaigning that Bush enjoys using to win elections. He’s a scumbag and should be called out for it.

Eric,
I agree with your piece, and have more to add on this topic but due to space will link.
Regards,
Tim

AP:

Here is a link to someone who served with Bush in Alabama. While I’m sure you will find some reason to NOT believe this guy (he is, after all, a Republican), this information certainly refutes your claim that no one has come forward to place Bush in Alabama.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-02-13-bush-military_x.htm

I find it utterly humorous that you feel YOU get to decide what is salient and what is not regarding Joe Wilson. The man lied about how he got the job, and the 911 commission even stated that his information made them even MORE suspect about Iraq’s intent to get yellowcake uranium.

You also claim to have first hand knowledge that Bush knew in advance that Saddam did not have WMD’s. This was of course easily refuted by the 911 commission as well as by the many many comments by Republicans, Democrats and other country’s intell agencies claiming that Saddam DID have WMD’s. But hey, dont let facts get in the way of your partisanship.

Jarin:

I agree with you regarding what the focus would be on new information from Kerry. But he certainly should be held accountable to prove things that he has himself stated. To me, its not a question of whether he earned his medals or not. I’m sure lots of medals were well earned, and others were a result of overstated claims. But that comes down to opinion, and not fact.

But when Kerry has repeatedly used his incursion to Cambodia as a searing reason for his anti-war stance, I think its fair to ask him to prove it, since all official documentation indicates he wasnt there. For his campaign to distance him from it now, by submitting a statement so full of nuance (he was possibly near Cambodia, or perhaps he was there at a different point, or…or…or) is simply cowardice. Either he was there or he wasnt.

Lets also focus less on Viet Nam and more on his later career. I want to know why he missed 38 of 49 Senate Intell Committee meetings. And if, as his campaign alleges, he was in attendance at the many more PRIVATE meetings, why will he not release attendance records of those meetings?

This type of question goes to the heart of whether Kerry is equipped to be President. What happened 30+ years ago was still 30+ years ago.

For American Pundit:

George Bush is president, so every attack on him can be phrased as an attack on his policies but they are misleading. The general MO is to call attention to a valid problem that may or may not be something the Federal Government has much control over, but something that would take years to change. Then they show a black and white photo of Bush and blame him. Often there is an ominous but meaningless phrase on the order of, “After three years of the Bush Presidency, half of all Americans earn below the average wage.”

The Swiftvets are wrong to attack John Kerry personally, but we don’t simply need to take his word about everything either. His Cambodia experience is a good example. Evidence is that he was never in Cambodia, but even his own words show he was mistaken about details. He said that he was in Cambodia on Christmas of 1968, when president Nixon denied we were there. That was the year Nixon was elected, but Johnson was still president during Christmas. This detail makes a big difference to the point Kerry is trying to make and there is nothing wrong with pointing it out. Worse is his own testimony after he came back that he knew about war crimes and atrocities committed by his colleagues. Did he make them up or which of his band of brothers does he plan to accuse?

John Kerry made his four-months in Vietnam the center of his campaign. I don’t think it belongs center. My father stormed the beaches at Normandy and helped hold the lines at the Battle of the Bulge. It took more than four months, but I heard less bragging from him in the forty plus years I lived near him than I heard about John Kerry this year alone. Kerry’s heroism shows his POTENTIAL for leadership. If that was enough, we should just find the bravest man in the appropriate age bracket and make him president. We now have years in public life to judge whether John Kerry lived up to his potential. But as long as Kerry keeps focusing on this really short period in his life, and telling us four months as a lieutenant qualifies him to be commander in chief, he has to expect closer scrutiny from his opponents.

joe:

That wasn’t me who said that (though I agree with it) it was Jerome Guerra. Nevertheless, I will answer it.

Regardless of what the date was, and I think the confusion is understandable if (as others have said) the vietnamese christians celebrate christmas on the sixth of january, Kerry was in Cambodia several times in January and February despite the official denials of several presidents. Since what he was outspoken about was that this denial needed to stop, and the truth needed to be told, I don’t think this even comes close to invalidating his anti-war stance.

As for his attendance record? I think the entire issue is misleading. We keep hearing that he missed such-and-such a percentage of public meetings (76 or 78 percent, I think it was?) but the data is presented in isolation. How does this compare to the attendance of public meetings by other members of the committee on both sides of the isle? How does this compare to the average attendance of public meetings held by other committees? Releasing only his information would give us a picture of how strong he is on defense, but that picture would be woefully incomplete because the majority of it would be based on a possibly-false preconception of near-perfect attendance being the average. Frankly, I think Kerry would be well served not to release his attendance record unless all of the other members of the committee, on both sides of the isle, release theirs first so that we can see how he stacks up side by side with the average member of the committee.

What an absolute joke! These two groups of narrow minded partisans- moveon and swift guys- have this country engaged in this completely valuless debate. Who cares if they are coordinating with X or smearing Y- let everyone voice their views, put out their opinions, and let the VOTERS decide the outcome. Trying to group X group as “527” or “coordinating with the candidate” is exactly what the anti-free speach joke that was campaign finance reform has reduced our political debate to. How sad, and how predictable.

Jarin—my apologies for directing that to you instead of Jerome, but thanks for your response.

I kinda agree with you, though it seems to me that Kerry is basing his candidacy on being good with intelligence, good with homeland security, etc. He has stated on numerous occasions that he hopes to be evaluated on his record.

Here is his chance. Is 24% attendance acceptable? Doesnt much matter to me if the other committee members had the same poor attendance. What matters to me is what John Kerry will do.

For instance, if my kid gets sent home from school for cheating, my defense can be that my kid did not cheat, but it cannot and would not be that its okay because others did it too. That seems to be the defense for Kerry that you are suggesting.

I want to look at John Kerry’s record. If he wants to say that 24% attendance is acceptable, then I want him to explain why its acceptable. And if he says it isnt acceptable, then I want to know why he allowed it to happen.

We dont know how many private meetings he attended or missed, and that is a salient part of the equation. But only Kerry can provide that information.

He wants to be measured by his record? I say, let us know what that record actually is.

Understandable confusion
Vietnamese Christians are Catholic (like the French). They celebrate Christmas on the 25th (like the French). Besides most American Christians celebrate on the 25th and Kerry, who is also Catholic, would probably been aware of the date. This is not a source of understandable confusion. None of the men on his boat, who support him in other ways, remembers being in Cambodia at any time. For whether or not he was in Cambodia matter less than what he said about Cambodia being defining for him, something seared into his memory. He specifically mentions Nixon as president and Christmas when drunken Vietnamese celebrating Christmas shot at him. Kerry was not in Vietnam (much less Cambodia) any Christmas (or even January 6) when Nixon was president. Without the Christmas and the Nixon parts, there is not much left of his story. One more part doesn’t work: Vietnamese shooting from one side of the Mekong and Cambodians from the other. The Mekong does not make up the border of Vietnam and Cambodia where Kerry was patrolling. I suppose there were a couple of meters where both sides could be shooting at you, but that is not what Kerry seems to be saying. So if every detail is wrong, maybe we have to questions the whole story.

I agree with Joe. Let’s get to the record that really counts - his time in the Senate. That means both Kerry and his foes will have to leave Vietnam to the historians. It was a long time ago, after all. I sure hope the defining thing in my life did not happen during a four month period when I was in my 20s. I like to think a man continues to grow and change. Judge him by more recent and relevant data.

I frankly have no problem with SBVT or MoveOn. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech.

I think the SBVT have been demonstrated to be liars and the public is intelligent enough to see that. The dyed in the wool Bushies choose not to see anything that defames Mr.Bush. The Kerry Lefties think he’s the new JFK.

MoveOn has made some ludicrous charges as well.

The thing that most disturbs me is the recent gestapo like tatics of Jeb in Florida, using the State Police to intimidate Black voters. What’s next? Crystal Nacht?

> I agree with Joe. Let’s get to the record
> that really counts - his time in the Senate.

What a hypocrite. You go on and on with your pedantic charge that Kerry wasn’t in Cambodia exactly on December 25th, blah blah blah. Then in the very next sentence you claim to be above all this ancient history stuff, and that we should be talking about the real issues.

Your side can’t have it both ways. If you really think we shouldn’t be quibbling over pedantic and insignificant details from 30+ years ago, much less slinging around unprovable allegations that fly in the face of piles of Navy records, then I suggest you take a good look in the mirror before rightously claiming to be above that kind of thing. You’re either wallowing in this pit of merde or you’re not.

-Cf

CF

It is hard for “our side” to let go until Kerry lets go. Did you know Kerry was in Vietnam? It is the first thing you hear from him. He made it the issue it is. I have never quibbled over his heroism, just with how often he brings it up.

The Cambodia thing is different because HE CLAIMS it changed his life and made him take the course he took and is still taking today. This is not a military or a heroic claim - it is a political statement he is making. That is the only part of his Vietnam experience that continues to be relevant today and that is why it is important.

Chris:

Again??? I have to explain my position to you AGAIN???? You really do need to read and comprehend what I say—-I’ve already done this before for you in other threads.

You seem to think that Kerry should be able to bring Viet Nam up ad nauseum without being held accountable to his stories. I’ve said continually that his presence in Viet Nam as a Lt.(jg) doesnt qualify him for President. I’ve also said that I prefer not to question his medals—there just isnt proof on either side.

But when Kerry talks about a defining moment in his life, one that is “seared” into his memory, and he gets the date and place wrong???? Well, I think its worth asking him how that could happen.

When I was a 6th grader and my dad died, it was a searing memory, and I can tell you where I was. When Reagan got shot, it was a searing memory, and I can tell you where I was when I heard the news. Either memory is seared into you or its not. If its not, dont lie about it. If it is, then tell the story accurately.

Bottom line for me is still the same. I’ll give Kerry his honor due for the medals, whether deserved or undeserved. I’ll give Kerry his honor for having gone into combat.

I’ll also question why his facts on certain issues seem so contorted. And I’ll ask about his Senate career.

Chris, I asked you before and you never answered. So I’ll ask again.

We know Kerry missed 76% of the Senate Intel public meetings. We KNOW Kerry missed these public meetings, which leads us to ask whether he missed the private ones also. Do you call for Kerry to release his attendance records at those meetings? Do you consider it acceptable for a potential chief executive to not even take the time to be present at meetings that regard the security of our nation?

This is the stuff that I’ve said over and over again that matters most. What do you say?

Here’s a real kicker from the DNC’s own website:

The Democratic Party is partnering with MoveOn.org, People for the American Way, Campaign for America’s Future, and dozens of other groups representing millions of Americans to organize a massive public mobilization. On Wednesday, May 14, join us by calling and emailing your representatives in Congress to let them know that the majority of Americans oppose more irresponsible tax cuts that go overwhelmingly to the wealthiest sliver of Americans.

Misha is quite right, this is an vivid illustration of the absurdity of ‘campaign finance reform.’ Also of the abundant hypocrisy of the Democratic Party and the Kerry campaign on this issue.

ring, ring…..Pot calling kettle….

The absurdidy of politics is that both parties play such childish games. Remember this from earlier in the year?

“This frivolous complaint is not worth the paper it is written on.”

- Kerry campaign

George:

The hypocrisy of both parties is not lost on the people, except for those too partisan to see it.

Take an issue (Florida election 2000, Medicare, troop realignment, 527’s etc) and you can see each side take both sides of the issue. Its been going on for decades, but what has changed is the public’s ability to quickly find what was said previously.

People outside politics do it too. Remember when Clinton ran and military service didnt matter…..to Democrats. And remember then too that military service was a critical issue….to Republicans. Now both parties have reversed sides… how quaint for them.

Well, Eric, I agree, but only conditionally, because the possibility comes to mind that Kerry has other evidence of coordination than just what has appeared in the public domain. For the time being though, I think neither campaign can complain about 527s.

But is that the center of the discussion, or is it a matter of control? Does Kerry exercise the influence over MoveOn that Bush or his lieutenants have over the SwiftVets? We’ll have to wait on that answer. Kerry, at the very least, doesn’t hide his approval of what the ads say. If Bush or his people turn out to be power players with SwiftVets, then we have weeks and months of him feigning ignorance, and stating that he believed Kerry served with honor.

All in all, if both parties have bent the law, I find more reprehensible the candidate who has bent the law in private to put out a message that he disowns in public.

I can’t believe John Kerry is whinning like a child. If he’s not man enough to defend himself against the swiftboat vets without calling the president to help him out, he’s not man enough to be president of the United States of America. What a whiner! I’m almost ashamed to admit I was going to vote for him.

Mommie, make them stop!!

Feh.

A question for “Me,” who wrote:

I can’t believe John Kerry is whinning like a child. If he’s not man enough to defend himself against the swiftboat vets without calling the president to help him out, he’s not man enough to be president of the United States of America. What a whiner! I’m almost ashamed to admit I was going to vote for him.

So is whininess your big hot-button issue in every election? Not health care or the environment or War in Iraq or terrorism, but the propensity to “whine”?

Maybe you’ve got something there. All this thinking about issues is hard. I’m just going to pick the guy whose ties I like best from now on.

Thanks for the revelation.

As is said in the law, if you open the door don’t complain if the other guy also goes through it. Move On.org has spent lavishly on rabid attack ads about Pres. Bush. Swifties for Truth spend a little cash and Kerry acts like he is “gut shot”. The DNC has got its operatives out 24/7 snivelling about how unfair it is that the other guys actually had the gall to strike back. Well, we finally learned…They have called Bush and Republilcans “Brown Shirts, KKKers, Nazis and the list goes on and on. A few Vets, with a real bone to pick, stand up and speak their mind and suddenly its Armegeddon. Walls bleed, dogs and cats are sleeping together, the moon is bathed in blood and the sun refuses to shine forth. Boy are those Swifties mean !!

Here is a link to someone who served with Bush in Alabama.

Thanks joe, I remember that now. There was some controversy over it because Calhoun’s story didn’t jibe with dates in the records Bush released. Bush never made a big deal out of it, and McClellan disowned the guy when questioned about the discrepancies, “I don’t speak for him,” McClellan said of Calhoun. “You would have to talk to Mr. Calhoun. I do not know him.”

Anyhow, I really couldn’t care less about the issue, except that it’s fun to call Bush a deserter whenever anyone brings equally unsubstantiated, obviously partisan charges against Kerry. I know the Guard units are “good ol’ boy” networks and are fairly lax, so it’s no surprise they’d let the son of a prominent politician take some time off to work on a campaign. It’s no big deal.

You also claim to have first hand knowledge that Bush knew in advance that Saddam did not have WMD’s.

No, I claimed that Bush knew the yellow cake charge was bogus before he gave the SOTU address. He did.

They have called Bush and Republilcans “Brown Shirts, KKKers, Nazis and the list goes on and on.

Samaritan, I still haven’t seen any TV ads making personal attacks on Bush like the ‘swift boat shills for Bush’ are doing to Kerry. Can you name one for me? Thanks!

We all agree for the most part that the current state of 527’s are sad, but legal. Kerry see’s some significance in formally distancing the politicians from these groups ,and has denounced the most widely known negative adds from the left. After Bush did not do the same, Kerry requested him to do so. I would not have taken that last step as I think his actions should speak louder than words, but on the same token I can see why he would ask Bush to make a similar gesture (to symbolize an agreed set of ground rules regarding the direction of the campaign discussion). Too bad Kerry’s request is at the expense of offering fuel for righties to label him a whiner.

You folks on the right keep making the issue about the amount of output from the left 527s compared to the right 527s. That is not the point. The point is for the politicians not to condone the type of ads we’re seeing. Your logic seems to condone this type of mudslinging saying that since moveon.org had a head start, the right deserves to hurl an even bigger ball of sh#$ back at them. Kerry is trying to bypass this crap alltogether. Moveon.org was under the radar until just recently, doing most of their ads on internet sites to audiences who already agreed with them- the moment they moved to bigger and more negative tactics, Kerry condemned them. It probably won’t solve the problem, but at least we know where he stands.

Its too late to reform legal restrictions on the groups for the current election. The least they can do is denounce the ads. Kerry has done so, even to those who claim to be his supporters. Bush has not (although probably the only reason he won’t is because Kerry is the one who asked him to- he always seems to have ego problems when it comes to corrections or admitting judgement errors).

and as an afterthought to my post,
Ideally, I’d like to see Kerry follow up his ‘whining’, by taking up an even tougher stance on 527’s from BOTH political sides in his coming speeches and debates. Then people may see that he treats this as an important issue and it’s not just partisan whining…

You folks on the right keep making the issue about the amount of output from the left 527s compared to the right 527s

peezee, don’t get drawn into that fight. The right is at a disadvantage on 527s, and they’re just trying to level the playing field by demonizing them.

Which I find completely hypocritical coming from Republicans who equate campaign funds with free speech.

Peezee- I happen to strongly support 527’s whether Republican or Leftist leaning. What are they except freedom of speech in action ? Lincoln’s detractors called him an “Ape” and “The original Monkey” (one of them was HIS own General, George McLelland [sp.]). If charges are true, so be it. If a person, or a “527”, lies the people have a right to know about the type of people who spread those lies.
Republicans, and Pres. Bush, have been called “Brown Shirts” “Nazis” and “KKKers”, recently Tom Harkin (D)-Iowa called Bush a “coward”. Sen Harkin, of course, forgot to mention the fact that he (once upon a time) routinely claimed to have been a fighter pilot in Vietnam. This , of course, turned out to be a flat-out lie. Pres. Bush has never even attempted to fabricate a heroic “legend” and has never, to my knowledge, been to Cambodia (Honest, not ever !).
As far as “Ads” are concerned Move On.Org has been blanketing the airwaves with attack ads for months out here. Of course the allegations of Republican=Nazi/KKK/Hatemonger/Brown Shirts probably have absolutely NO affect on civil political discourse in this country. It is simply the Democrats speaking a truth that MUST be spoken, reviewed, examined and thoroughly investigated (ad nauseum, ad infinitum). Swifties For Truth, on the other hand, are an EXTREMELY radical and dangerous group whose activities MUST be stopped by legal action, just ask the DNC !! :D

Jerome, come Nov. will be my first time voting, ever. And because I’ve never voted, I’ve never ‘whinned’ as you stated.

It’s not the issues that concern me, it’s who is better at protecting and defending me and mine, should another 9/11 occur.

I thought Kerry was that person. So, I’m voting for him before I vote against him.

As for your revelation, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Dear “Me”: Unless you possess an unusually dry wit (or are flat out lying) I think you had better read “Jerome’s” last entry again. I realize that you are probably voting for Kerry, dry wit not withstanding (if that’s what it was), however it appears that Jerome may also be voting the same way. You know, now that I think of it…if you are lying that might be a GOOD reason to vote for Kerry.

Samaritan, think again.

Oh Peezee,

We all agree for the most part that the current state of 527’s are sad, but legal. Kerry see’s some significance in formally distancing the politicians from these groups ,and has denounced the most widely known negative adds from the left. After Bush did not do the same, Kerry requested him to do so.

This is the oldest trick in the book. And you guys fall for it lock, stock and barrel. The real purpose of moveon.org running that ad was only for the sole purpose of Kerry to denounce it! And look up like the little boy with a halo and say, see what a good boy I am!

Oldest trick in the book! Puleeze!!!!!

Peezee,

The least they can do is denounce the ads. Kerry has done so, even to those who claim to be his supporters.

Perhaps the 1st Amendment is worth mentioning here. Something that the left reserves only for themselves. Especially now that there is a serious attack on his legitimacy as Commander in Chief.

I have not heard Kerry denounce any ad except those of the SBVTs and to such a degree that he sends out his muscle men to threaten TV and Radio stations. Knock, Knock, have they not heard of the 1st Amendment?

AP,

peezee, don’t get drawn into that fight. The right is at a disadvantage on 527s, and they’re just trying to level the playing field by demonizing them.

Actually, I like them. This whole McCain-Feingold stuff is just a limit on free speech. Besides, the only one demonizing them now is the Kerry camp…. A little too late and a bit disingenuous I might add. So we see more inconsistency from Kerry and the beat goes on…….

Me.

Good one!

It took me a second or two before I got it!

So, I too will be voting for him before I vote against him! But it won’t be my first and hopefully not my last election…

And I know they know how I feel on this thread.

Jack,

How someone like Soros, who made his money manipulating currency futures and usually doesn’t even live in the U.S. could become a hero to American “progressives” is beyond me.

“So why is he so upset with Bush? The answer is simple. Soros is angry not with Bush’s aims—of extending Pax Americana and making the world safe for global capitalists like himself—but with the crass and blundering way Bush is going about it. By making US ambitions so clear, the Bush gang has committed the cardinal sin of giving the game away. For years, Soros and his NGOs have gone about their work extending the boundaries of the “free world” so skilfully that hardly anyone noticed. Now a Texan redneck and a gang of overzealous neo-cons have blown it.”

“Soros knows a better way—armed with a few billion dollars, a handful of NGOs and a nod and a wink from the US State Department, it is perfectly possible to topple foreign governments that are bad for business, seize a country’s assets, and even to get thanked for your benevolence afterwards. Soros has done it.”

Yes, Jack. This is their hero!

Just in case my link does not work, good information….
http://www.mindfully.org/WTO/2003/George-Soros-Statesman2jun03.htm

let these swift boat vets know what you think:

Joe Ponder, (352) 473-2451, 6986, Deer Springs Rd, Keystone Heights, FL 32656

George M Elliott, (302) 645-5071, 124 Gills Neck Rd, Lewes, DE 19958

Adrian Lonsdale, (508) 758-4046, , Mattapoisett, MA 02739

Van Odell, (281) 395-1703, 1622, Crescent Point Dr, Katy, TX 77494

Grant W Hibbard, (850) 932-7001, 3830 Bangkok Cv, Gulf Breeze, FL 32563

Letson Louis E Dr Jr, (256) 259-1555, 323 Parks Ave Scottsboro, AL 35768
(256) 259-5580

Roy A Hoffman, (804) 935-0943, 3221 Coppermill Trce, Richmond, VA 23294

John O’Neil (713) 654-7600, 1000 Louisiana St, Houston, TX 77002

John Bare, 422 Mill Creek Road, Bird in Hand, PA 17505

Kenneth Buchholz, (972) 355-7623, 1516 Wildflower Lane, Flower Mound, TX 75028

Jack Chenoweth, (573) 964-6872, 108 Hidden Acres, Lake Ozark, MO 65049

Tom Costarino, (703) 748-1602, 2039 Lord Fairfax Rd, Vienna, VA 22182

Morton Golde, (904) 221-7093, 689 Sandringham Dr, Jacksonville, FL 32225

Charles R. Grutzius, (703) 620-0929, 3221 Wildmere Pl, Herndon, VA 20171

Mike Kovanen, (509) 628-9560, 279 Gage Blvd, Richland, WA 99352

Dennis Spranger, (262) 637-6736, 3000 Olive St, Racine, WI 53405

Hallo friends! Really nice place here. I found a lot of interesting stuff all around. Just what I was looking for. Great joy!