Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

St. Francis of Asissi once said, “Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words” Jesus gave his disciples two commandments: Love God with all you got, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Christians can put up all the five ton granite monuments of the ten commandments they want to, and stir up all the trouble with the government they want to over it, but unless they have love, and unless they pass forward the gifts given to them by grace, all those monuments are dead stone idols and all those fights are just signs of vain self-righteousness.

We Christians deserve the contempt of others, as long as we fight and make gains only for ourselves, or only for those who already have all they need. Christians are only human, and we will make mistakes, but let’s not be willfully mistaken on these things.

Craig and Stephen: Well said and well done!

Good post, Craig. I often get asked how one of my orientation can possibly support a Republican president and one who is against equal marriage rights. Part of it is generational—I think younger folks of all minority groups are finding it easier these days to base their choice of party affiliation on more factors than just the one that makes them a minority.

But for me, a considerable factor is that I don’t really buy into the stereotype of Christian fundamentalists as universally hateful ignorant rednecks who show up at funerals to chant “Aids Kills Fags Dead.” My experience with the evangelic types (including some family members) shows me that a high percentage have your attitude—far more tolerant and thoughtful than the media caricatures suggest. Even though my disagreements are profound, I just don’t sense much of a threat. When I do see the hate though, it doesn’t disturb me as much it used to because the cultural tide is turning our way, not the way of the haters. Just look at TV—Will and Grace, Queer Eye, etc. The cultural force is far greater than any government official’s personal opinions, whatever they actually are, so I feel free to support a presidential candidate based on his stands relative to issues he actually has a great deal of influence over.

I don’t like it when I see Bush pandering to anti-gay bigots, which I think he has done on occasion, though fairly half-heartedly (by the same token, Democratic candidates pander to whackos from their extreme wing as well, so it all pretty much balances out). But when it really comes down to it, no matter what Bush says or does in relation to gay rights, I feel like he’s confronting an ideology, and has vowed to fight it to the death, that considers being gay a capital offense.

Craig,

As a politically engaged gay man, I struggle not to resent all people of deep religious faith for the intolerant, and sometimes hateful, things some do in the name of their God.

For about 7 of my teen years, I attended a Christian Reform church. And, even then I knew I was gay.

But, it wasn’t till my late thirties that I realized that my struggle and commitment to be honest and truthful (and accept no less from friends, family and loved ones), is rooted in that period of my life.

As I mull over again seeking that from organized religion, you’re correct that this is an ideal venue to shape a dialog of common ground.

I find the Gay issue interesting.

I find my own reaction to it curious. While I always try to be open minded and informed about different cultures and customs, I must admit I am sometimes disturbed by homosexuality.

When I was 19, I had a roomate that I lived with for a year. During that time he had a girlfriend and I did not. On the eve of his moving out to another city, he made a pass at me confessing his feelings and telling me he “knew he was no Marilyn Monroe or anything” While I calmly told him that wasn’t my cup of tea and it wasn’t a big deal, inside I was floored. I slept with a knife under my pillow that night.

Recently, a childhood friend who I had not heard from for twenty years, found my number and called me. We live in different states, and after catching up some, he hesitatingly told me his sister now lived with a partner and, since I did not react negatively, then told me he was bisexual and it was hurting his marriage.

I am not religous, and have read that even about 10% of animal populations exhibit homosexual behavior. A normal bell curve type distribution. But because I grew up in the U.S. in the 50’s and 60’s, I clearly am bothered by this in deeply emotional ways. I presume because there is a sexual component here.

I don’t believe in discrimination,and think gay marriage is fine. I don’t think it is immoral or deviant. It is out of the mainstream, but I also know from my own reactions that it must be very hard to own up to one’s own internal feelings in a society that does not accept what is, if somewhat fringe, a normal pttern of behavior

I offer this only as human who reacts like other humans. It is a higher calling, I believe, to rise above reactionary emotions and apply the reasoning part of our brains when forming social “norms”

This is one of the most encouraging threads I’ve read here.

Craig:

Thank you for your comments here as well as in previous blogs where you have discussed this subject. I echo many of your thoughts. I have evangelical friends who are steadfast in their convictions; they know they are right because it says so in the Bible. Unfortunately, this sometimes takes them further away from the message of Jesus and from the writings of Paul.

I am SIN+ too.

beuatiful thread this seems to be a topic that both sides of the Watchblog ailse seem to be in agreement on, and it is very encourging for our future:)

Craig and Stephen and all the rest:

Couldnt have said it better. Christians are not hateful people, but there are those among us who ARE hateful. They are simply relaying a miscommunicated message. That in itself does not make the message wrong—it does, however, make the messenger wrong.

I truly don’t hate gays, nor am I homophobic, but I do disagree with homosexuality just as I do with adultery.

But, I’ll confess that I find the idea of homosexuality more viscerally troubling than the idea of adultery. Both are sexual sins, but I recoil at the homosexual context more. I’m wrong to do that, and I truly work to not discern different sins as being worse or better.

Joe,

I was hoping this was not gonna be a fracas of a thread, then you said…

I truly don’t hate gays, nor am I homophobic, but I do disagree with homosexuality just as I do with adultery.

But, I’ll confess that I find the idea of homosexuality more viscerally troubling than the idea of adultery. Both are sexual sins, but I recoil at the homosexual context more. I’m wrong to do that, and I truly work to not discern different sins as being worse or better.

Joe, do you have any friends that are gay or lesbian? Since you find homosexuality ‘troubling’, would you not befriend someone because of it?

Joe, do have any friends that have committed adultery? And, since you ‘disagree’ with it and find it being no better or worse a sin, would you not befriend someone because of it?

Joe, if I were to show you research that gays and lesbians tend to exceed the national average when it came to level of education completed, level of average salary, least likely to commit a crime, voter participation, etc. Would that have an impact on how you view the group?

Bert:

I was simply being honest about the nature of my reaction to gays. I was making the comparison of homosexuality and adultery as sexual sins, and as such, we should treat them both the same. But viscerally, the gay issue makes me react more strongly. As I posted, I know that’s wrong, so I work at it.

Have you never had an emotion that was at odds with your intellect? Have you never had a disconnect with someone, and then searched for a reason only to find none?

Bert, I think you must have misunderstood something in my post since you asked whether education level, income etc would alter my opinion. My opinion is that sexual sin is wrong for anyone in any socio-economic strata.

You may not consider homosexuality to be a sexual sin, and I don’t know your opinion on how to categorize adultery. I DO consider them both sexual sins, and as such, I dont approve of them. I have had friends who committed adultery, just as I have had friends who were homosexual. And I treated them with equanimity. I did not push my opinions on them, but I most certainly did respond with brutal honesty when asked for my opinions. I felt that was the only way to talk with them.

Bert, my intention was not to turn this into a fracas, but to intelligently discuss how for many, the nature of homosexuality (a primarily sexual act) seems different from adultery (also a primarily sexual act). The bottom line is that I can like someone and still disagree with some of their actions. This is something we ALL do.

Joe, I’m a liberal atheist who counts a number of gays amongst my friends and marches in support of gay marriage, yet I also experience the visceral “eww” feeling when thinking about homosexual acts. It’s just not my cup of tea.

I don’t disagree with homosexuality, I fully support the right to determine and exercise one’s sexuality. I choose not to exercise it, though.

It’d be interesting to know why there’s such a reaction even in people like myself, when there’s no similar reaction to adultery. Perhaps it’s an evolutionary thing…

What I’m trying to say, I guess, is that I don’t believe joebagodonuts was detracting from this thread when he posted that.

ceejayoz:

Thanks for the words of support. While we come from vastly different viewpoints (you being a liberal atheist and me being a Bible believing conservative), its nice to see that we can both express viewpoints on a topic, without rancor.

Because of my belief in the Bible, which talks expressly about sexual sins, I have chosen to follow that path that both adultery and homosexuality are “wrong”. I know in this day and age, it sometimes is considered hateful to say something is wrong, but….its what I think.

I can see how, without a belief in the Bible, one could conclude that adultery is wrong (cheating, lying and hurting a 3rd party), while homosexuality is okay (since its two people just being in love).

I dont see a belief in the Bible as being a bad thing, though some in our society characterize it as the toolbook of the ignorant fool. Yet there is much wisdom in it.

Ceejay—-thanks again for the post. God bless (this can be read as simply “bless” since you dont believe in God — lol).

Joe

> I truly work to not discern different sins as being worse or better.

We must discern different sins as being worse or better. Adultery is worse than stealing food when you’re starving. Just as good varies in its degree, so does evil.

And I don’t think you need to be apologetic for feeling that homosexuality is worse than adultery. You’re quite entitled to it.

All sexuality is natural. Heterosexuality and Homosexuality (as well as Bisexuality) are all natural variations of sexuality, based in our biological genetic make-up (determined via the sixth to eigth month of pregnancy according to the National Mental Health Organization and American Medical Association - 1973 & 1997).

ALL secular medical and scientific/psychological bodies and establishments in America have deemed homosexuality to be a natural phenomenon. The fundamentalist Judeo-Christian theological establishments and the Church are the lone advisaries of equality for all persons (including gays and lesbians). This is because, just as they laugh in the face of science regarding the realities of Darwinian evolution, the time of existence of the dinosaurs, historical facts surrounding Jesus of Nazareth’s life, etc., they continue to maintain that natural sex is “wrong” and that sexual orientation is “willfully chosen.” Such a notion is widely accepted by the passive religious masses, yet is a laughable concept that completely contradicts scientific study, medical fact, and basic common sense and rational thought.

Please stop worrying about other people’s private love and sex lives and worry about your own. If you feel the need to believe in mythology such as religion in order to get by in daily life, then that is your choice. However, please do not utilize your sheepish beliefs and blind faith in a book written by a handful of Hebrews and translated multiple times to deny me the civil SECULAR right under federal and state government to marry a spouse and live a happy life.

As you know, an old phrase reads “Misery loves company.” You Christians must be quite miserable…otherwise, I cannot see how you would dedicate so much time to denying me my human right to be happy and live in peace and security under the law with my loved one.

May God deliver me from his wicked, mean-spirited followers who so severly blaspheme his name and wage war and justify bigotry in the name of religion.

David