Democrats & Liberals Archives

Don't Say It Unless You Mean It

Here are the Presidential and midterm elections that I’ve been eligible to vote in: 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2014, and this year, 2016. Which ones had positive results for the Democrats? 2006, 2008, 2012, and it looks likely 2016. We’ve taken our share of shots over time. We’ve even dealt with an election where the shenanigans were potentially severe enough to change the direction of a Presidential contest. And you don’t hear us calling for some freaking revolution.

If you play the election game, you are bound to lose at some point. You don't get guaranteed results, and that's the point. You have to earn them, whether you're a candidate, or a voter.

I like to think of our system as a kind of strange loop. For those not familiar with the concept, it's a system where the lowest levels of a hierarchy can loop back to change the behavior of the highest levels. Now people are social creatures, so inevitably, they offload some of the load on decision-making to somebody else, just so we can function together. Often, that decision-making is as little remarked upon as the lanes in our roads and the signs on the roadside.

The strawman argument against Democracy or a Republic like ours is that when people take hold of the levers of power, they inevitably use it to lazy or self-serving ends. I think it's hardly the case. I think people have to learn that sort of responsibility. In more authoritarian, dictatorial environments, so many of the decisions, at least formally, are taken on by the government. Some people want the government to make society more Christian, or at least impose Christian morality.

I'd say in general, the average person's beliefs and thinking are meant to remain free. It's part of the process. People are responsible for their own faith, their own politics, their own beliefs. That way, if the beliefs that dominate fail, other beliefs are there to be tried.

Of course, it's never pleasant for those who once dominated, especially if they think their beliefs are instrumental to the existence of the country. But these things happen. Democrats believed the decline and fall of the New Deal/Great Society governing paradigm would soon lead to economic chaos. Well, it didn't not immediate. We were somewhat dispensable, despite what we thought. I got involved in the Democratic Party just in time to watch that go down.

It's funny how similar the events are. A war that went horribly awry. Debt and deficit, disrupting the economy. Huge recessions. People became willing to try other things. A paradigm that once ruled fell. Advantages were locked into the districts by gerrymandering long meant to favor the dominant party. Folks thought, as I recall, that the Democratic Party could never fall from power. But it did.

Republicans are experiencing much the same, but they seem much more inclined to believe that they're being robbed. That, rather than people rejecting their dogmas. That, rather than believe that their key Demographics are fading away. That, rather than believe that those they've spent their lives looking their noses down are somehow winning where once they couldn't.

I believe I've written at times that accepting these lessons gracefully is part of the key to rebuilding the GOP, but the GOP didn't listen to such advice. Instead, they insisted on fighting a war against the liberals. Given what's happening with Trump, I think the dark consequences of that ideological war are manifesting themselves. It's not just Democrats and Liberals, or big government that people are losing faith in. They're losing faith in America itself, losing faith in our elections.

Trump, who doesn't seem to have a dignified bone in his body when it comes to losing, is claiming the election is being rigged against him. It's not even taken place, and he doesn't seem to have much proof, but he knows that his people will believe him without asking the key questions. And that's what I think is most harmful here.

Look, folks, politicians are often no damn good. Doesn't matter what party. Power attracts corruption and abuse like honey attracts flies. That will always be the case, no matter who you put in there. No person can stand for election, who can declare themselves the perfect cure for what ails us here.

That said, our system was never meant to work that way. This was a system designed to make politicians look over their shoulder to the crowd behind them. The temptations of power are a constant. The basic constraints? The rule of law, or in other words, the truth that our leaders must obey the same rules the rest of us do. Elections, or the fact that very few of our leaders, part from courts, have lifetime posts. Even those that do have lifetime tenure are chosen by those who don't, who can be held responsible for bad decisions. The sense of public opinion, for one.

In politics, there are two different ends of the spectrum of responses to this: one is to do what you're supposed to do, and write and enact policy in a way that acknowledges public sentiment and practical reality. The other end of the spectrum is what the Right's become dependent upon, which is a friendly media system that delivers to trusting recipients the things they're supposed to believe, the attitudes they're supposed to take.

Too much of the latter, and you cripple the very mechanism that is supposed to guarantee the good character of the politicians and the good performance of the government they run.

Or, more specifically to today, you get Trump.

Why is Trump telling you that the election is going to be rigged? Personal reasons theory would be that he can't see any defeat, especially by a woman, as a product of a fair contest. Another reason? Well, he knows that the right-wing media has been pushing this notion that the elections in 2008 and 2012 were the product of widespread fraud. They haven't proved this, but the rather streamlined sort of dittohead express of misinformation means that many believe this anyway.

They're such a reinforced bubble of political information at work here, it's not funny. They haven't proven much of any fraud, they just assume it. They ignore information that tells them that White Male voters are simply getting outnumbered. They ignore the reality that many of the groups that the current version of the GOP has spent decades alienating have now grown in our population to the extent that now they're able to help the minority of White voters who vote Democratic tickets win elections. Old standby GOP states have become swing states.

They could be adapting to all the different changes in the situation, letting the truth pull them through the strange loop to become a new party, with new direction, and new interpretations, if not doctrines to practice. That's what the Democrats did. The Clintons helped create a once-dominant faction of the party with the Democratic Leadership Council When times changed, and Democratic Party Voters wanted something different, that declined, and Democrats moved over to new groups.

Instead, Republican voters are questioning the validity of anything out in the media that tells them that they ought to change, or moderate their views. The Tea Party was seen as a way out for the Republicans out from under the shadow of the establishment. The irony is, it was less meant to be that, and more meant to be a way for the Establishment to rush its way back into the leadership in Washington, without having to resolve its problems, the poor fit it had developed with the rest of the country. The irony is, it actually crippled the party to do things this way, and led it off into the self-isolated, esoteric direction it's taking now.

It's what gets you Trump, like I've said before. The intention of the voters was not to get taken in again by the establishment, but effectively putting them back in the leadership by electing the Tea party basically put them back in charge. Only, by doing it that way, it left the GOP with an approximately 80 seat faction in the House that pretty much gutted the ability of the party to push its agenda as a party, getting the kind of compromises that Obama would not or could not veto. The fact that many of the most cooperative, collaborative Democrats were targeted by the Tea Partiers to get into the majority made things that much more worse.

People saw it as kind of a strength problem. It was nothing of the sort. It was a Constitutional problem. Not even one of people defying it, but of the document working exactly like it was supposed to do.

We don't have a parliamentary style democracy. In those, a party in charge basically can pass all the legislation it wants, even choosing who leads the country. We have a system where the Executive Branch and the Legislative Branch are separate, where the parties are only informally encoded into the system, where members can cross the aisles to get things done. That is precisely what happened time after time. The upstart Tea Party faction couldn't force Obama to take a bad deal for his side, and they couldn't force legislation past him. They wouldn't be the first radical faction so stymied. It's the whole point of the way the system was set up.

People say they love the Constitution, and yet they didn't register that this outcome was likely, if not almost guaranteed! The weakness in the Republican Approach is that they were swimming upstream against the current of power, as channeled by the executive veto and administrative powers. That weakness was compounded by the way the Tea Party faction, necessary in its numbers to the Republican's claim on the majority, essentially crippled the GOP's ability to make sensible bargains that would make it past Obama. Their logic was that if they couldn't get what they wanted, all perfect and wrapped up in a bow, they wouldn't vote for it. Ironically, they thought this made them stronger. In reality, it meant that any deal that would actually defang Obama's administrative decisions and still get passed didn't have a prayer of reaching Obama's desk. No, much less powerful legislation made its way down, in no small part because of all the times the recalcitrant Tea Party forced the Republicans to engage a part or majority of the Democrats to pass something.

In short, their inability to actually bargain together, internally, actually helped create the weakness that Tea Partiers were supposed to be the cure to!

The Right Wing in America has weakened itself by valuing ideological purity so highly that it's crippled its ability to gather allies, within the party and outside of it, to pass the Constitutional thresholds for wielding power. Republicans could once dismiss the concerns of non-whites, dismiss the critics of free market economics, and focus on creating ironclad political discipline. The excessive overuse of it, though, has turned this collar around their neck into an instrument of strangulation.

But if you're not paying attention? If you're not paying attention, it may seem like what you need is more power, more people willing to tell it like it is, more doubling down, more application of willpower. Trump seems to understand this, see the frustration, and he's using it. Using it, and once again, breaking the party. We don't know how much damage in the party will be permanent, but it's a good bet that quite a bit of it will be. Margins matter. Will the members of the party come back to the fold as the results become obvious? Some will.

But with Trump? I think he'll retain fans. I think he'll take his basket of deplorables with him, which means that the Republican Party will have to look for some of its power in bluer areas in order to win. Contrary to what some might want, the party may just be heading in a more liberal direction than they wanted, and ironically enough, in part because they were so aggressive in trying to pull the party into its fringe.

If Trump does that, splinters the GOP? I think its simply the chickens of a divisive style of politics coming home to roost. Those who made their power by demonizing opposition outside the party, ultimately end up demonizing those within their own party, and breaking it as a consequence.

That doesn't worry me. I think that would be a natural consequence of resisting the tides of change. If you won't bend, you will break. But what worries me is the degree to which people begin to think that their minority of a minority position justifies going outside of the law, with behavior ranging from good old fashioned riots and political extremism to even the specter of a second Civil War.

This system was set up by adherents of the enlightenment, believers in the power of reason and power wielded by the consent of the governed. They built multiple layers of consensus requirements into the system, creating different chambers of Congress and different branches of government to keep power from being exercised unilaterally, whether by the majority of Americans or the minority of them. If you believe in that, saying this election will be rigged without good proof of some kind of mechanism for doing so is an attack on our nation's integrity.

There are many reasons why Trump will lose. He managed to alienate everybody else but white males. He managed to behave in such an atrocious way on the trail, that if he wasn't already a man with an outrageous, larger than life reputation, he would have essentially committed political suicide a dozen times before now. The Republicans knew their choice was highly flawed. I think part of the point of choosing him anyway was to thumb their nose at Political correctness, at the notion that the party would have to yield to anybody else in any other way. Well, fine, but if you won't yield, others won't either. If you won't cooperate with others, bargain with others, listen to others, treat others with respect, it's going to lose you followers, it's going to lose you support.

If you think it's somehow a massive conspiracy that you lose after all that, then you really have your head in the sand. You are losing because you chose the wrong man, and the election is rigged against him only in the sense that he rigged it against himself by so completely flouting the standards and traditions of our elections. When every new appearance promises to be a new low in American political history, Then it shouldn't be surprising when the field tilts against the candidate.

The truth is, losing an election is not always a bad thing. It can teach lessons. It can teach humility. It can teach our voters to temper expectations and our leaders to constrain their misbehavior. It is part of the natural workings of our constitutional government that the average citizen is given the power to carve away that policy and those politicians that do not function well. That system is what we are supposed to use to do course correction on our government. Threats of violence and revolution reflect a failure of faith in the Constitution, not the height of love for it. It reflects an ignorant preference for direct power, employed without discussion or deliberation, an affront to the Enlightenment spirit of our founding charter. Hell, even if you're going back to the Declaration of Independence, the notion of a social contract is front and center, the notion that a government should be accountable to its people, and not just a minority of them at that.

If you are unwilling to work with others to see your political will done, don't be surprised when other voters shut you down. Don't be surprised when your agenda is left unrealized, and your policies go down in flames.

And if you think that entitles you to act violently, to radicalize, to try and do end runs around the government's power? Don't be surprised when that paints a black mark across your movement and your political parties for years to come. Democrats had their experience with such radicalization in the seventies, and they still haven't fully lived it down. If Republicans have the kind of temper-tantrum concerning this election, the sore loser behavior that he seems to encourage, it will only serve to decline the dignity of the GOP further.

It's time for the GOP to recognize rock bottom and start the climb up.

Posted by Stephen Daugherty at October 17, 2016 12:19 PM
Comments
Comment #408767

1 - Yes, now that the democratic party has fully embraced liberalism, the Republican Party will have to sacrifice our country and culture and move further left if they wish to remain relevant.

2 - As stated time and time again, the ‘Tea Party’ representatives were sent to preserve what rights we have left, not to compromise them away at a slower rate.

3 - Even a blind, deaf mute can see that our media/celebrities/government has rigged everything in order to force ‘liberalism/progressivism’ to be embraced as mainstream.

Those who love their country, its culture, and who support the Constitution, are now the minority. They can either roll over and watch the country further deteriorate, or they can do something about it.

Posted by: kctim at October 17, 2016 3:00 PM
Comment #408771

Agree kc, funny how the rich hollywood class are all for wealth unless it’s a wealthy republican.

If Trump loses there will never be another GOP win. Sometime between now and 20 years a new 3rd party will come up, made up of constitutionals, folks of faith, those who believe in small gov’t and a few indian tribes.

By splitting the vote thusly it will be possible for a 3rd party to wrest the Republic from the jaws of socialism.

Posted by: roy ellis at October 17, 2016 3:23 PM
Comment #408772

Hell, half the voters in country kain’t even spell ‘American’.

Posted by: roy ellis at October 17, 2016 3:24 PM
Comment #408773

It’s called progress and yes it progressive. To bad their are some who wish for regression, not gonna happen. Not now or in 30 or 300 years. We as a country will move forward, damn the naysayers. Good riddance.

Posted by: Speak4all at October 17, 2016 3:29 PM
Comment #408777

1) Sacrificing your country and culture? Whatever made you think it all belonged to you in the first place? America belongs to all Americans. They will decide, as people who are free, which way they want to go. As for the rest? America is different from what it once was, but then the America you so value was a departure from the America many people knew. Your “America as it should be,” was once somebody’s “America running off the cliff to ruin.”

2) Look, the Constitution says laws pass a certain way. Majorities, both houses, signature of the President. Since 2006, We’ve had control of at least one chamber of Congress or the Presidency, which means you were NEVER going to get exactly what you want, no matter how strongly fanatical your followers got.

Moreover, as I would argue, that unwillingness to budge actually crippled the GOP majority. Obama was never going to sign your party’s dream legislation. NEVER. He was not sent to do that by HIS voters. So, the idea that he would suddenly just cave and let all the crap through, if only you pushed him hard enough, turned out to be false, both in principle and in practice.

If the only legislation you allow through is that which conforms to your extreme position, but you have somebody in the White House who opposes that position, the logic isn’t that difficult. Your policy will die, unless you get an override. We just had, if I’m not mistaken, one of the few overrides Obama’s ever gotten.

So, what’s the sum of where your Tea Party legislation has gotten? Not much.

Meanwhile, Obama, The Democrats, and Republicans who didn’t want a big crisis blowing up on their faces all had significant enough common interest in keeping things stable to come together and pass legislation in spite of the Tea Party’s intransigence. This, by the way, is exactly what the legislative branch’s structure was supposed to encourage, in order to diminish the power of Parties, factions, and their partisanship. That Constitutional system which you claim to love works against your efforts to dominate and freeze in place the old Conservative paradigm, much less advance it any further.

3) No, that’s just your opinion. You need it all to be some fraud. You need it all to be some failure on the part of the American people, for you to be some remnant of the true America, rather than a remnant of a political faction that got too big for its britches and got taught a lesson.

The truth is, older voters like you are holding certain views, and gradually, you’re passing away, being replaced by younger, more non-white, more liberal and progressive Americans. Now, they, in turn, may get eventually replaced by more conservative, more right-wing youngster, or libertarians, or socialists, or whatever! But it will happen, because each generation born sees things for themselves, understand things for themselves, starting from what their parents and their peers believed, but ultimately growing their own perspectives.

This is what happens. Like too many of your generation, you never counted on time doing to you what time will do to us all: usher us off the stage to be replaced with new, different generations.

As for your final response? I love my country. But I do not define it in terms of some official language, or some official ethnic identity, or in terms of some political party. It’s been my country as a Republican, a Centrist, and a Progressive.

It’s culture? It’s culture has been whatever it damn well wants. I’ve lived long enough for it to start leaving me behind, for the newest hottest bands to no longer be my concern. There are no longer so many damsels in distress on the TV shows, no longer such flat whiteness in the cast. I work in an office where there are all kinds of different people from different backgrounds, and it doesn’t threaten me in the least. Why? Because I’ve told myself that what defines my country’s culture is that it is whatever people chose it to be. There was a time when Christian Spirituality was more fashionable. before that, there was a time when it was less fashionable, seen as weird or behind the times. Now it’s back to that. There’s nothing that says there can’t be a revival in a decade or two, or even sooner. I’m not always comfortable with the hostility to the culture, but then, I understand why people have come to be that hostile, after years of seeing basic human rights opposed or violated by those who held the standard of religion high. My personal choice would be to bring it back but also to clear off the partisan and hostile BS to get it back more to its universal roots.

Long story short, I don’t think it’s my business to control culture. I don’t think you can even keep a culture still, any more than you can tell a river to stand still. You can dam it up, but getting in the way of a flow doesn’t mean you’ve stopped it or entirely gained control of it. Even most dams have to have spillways and sluice gates and all of that to let through that flow. It’s beyond your control, beyond mine, too, and that’s something you have to reconcile yourself with, or otherwise you’ll go mad.

As for the support of the Constitution? Here, the arrogance of the Right Wing over the last decade and a half has made itself plain. We all have our own opinion about what the law is, up to and including that of the Constitution. We have a Supreme Court to resolve these disputes, one whose members are selected by the President, and confirmed by the Senate. We can pretend its all written and stone, and that the interpretation we believe to be true is the plain and obvious one, if we are so naive as to believe that lawyers cannot twist up any set of rules we might present, but in truth, it’s another area of consensus-building, only one that the Framers meant to work over the longer term.

Again, here, the Court has gone back and forth between more restrictive and more liberal decisions, between views more expansive of government power, and less. It’s gone from the Warren Court to the Rehnquist, from the Rehnquist to the Roberts, and now, from the Roberts Court as it once was, to one that it seems will work quite a bit differently.

Unfortunately, your people have lost the courage of your conviction in the Constitution, and are right now forcing a vacancy in the Court to avoid what you should have realized was an inevitable results of not winning all those elections. The Constitution provided for this, and now you’re balking at it because you’ve so dogmatically cast yourself as the defenders of the faith on the Constitution that you are above its law when it comes to who gets to interpret it. You want the court that ruled in your favor 5-4 so many times to remain what it was.

But is that yours to keep? No. Both time and the Constitution, if you really believe in it, said that no, you had to keep the Presidency in order to make that choice your choice. Now, it’s legitimately Obama’s, and perhaps Clinton’s choice to make.

You think the game is rigged against you? No. What’s happened is that the game wasn’t rigged for you, wasn’t rigged so that you’d win indefinitely. The entire point of where I start with this entry is that, as a Democrat, as a Liberal, I’ve been handed my share of elections that I didn’t like. Did I take my gun (if I owned one) off the gun rack and start a revolution? NO!!! I did exactly as the Constitution has told me to, and competed with your side for the offices in question! I worked within the law, and now people like you are making noises about how you’re going to work outside it. And based on what?

Based on conspiracy theory. Based on unsubstantiated reports. Based on a failure of reason, in short, a failure to exercise your full rights and responsibilities as a citizen. You’ve trapped yourself into a position where to preserve the Constitution, people like you are beginning to convince yourself it’s necessary to burn it down, to trample its protections and restrictions.

Or, to put it more succinctly, you’ve become slaves to your notion that you alone deserve power, you alone can wield it well, and that all others must be deprived of it. For a few years, you’ve been filtering that desire through the Constitution, but as that fig-leaf gets blown away, all you really have is the naked desire for power to make things the way you want it.

I believe in the Constitution, even when it dictates that I must accept results that hurt me. I believe that’s the price of legitimacy for my own Party’s power, and yours as well. Only through the social contract it represents can you point to the other side and say, “wait your turn.” Otherwise, if all we’re working with here is the sincere and melodramatic belief that only we and our own can wield power effectively, then all it really becomes is a shoving match between groups who can’t get the other to recognize their legitimacy in power.

You need to come back down to Earth and recognize that you are only the self-appointed guardians of all these things, and that unless you win that power fair and square through the constitutionally defined methods, you really have no legitimate claim to power that the other side is bound to respect.

This election isn’t rigged. You’ve just decided that it is, because you won’t face a demographic reality. The rest of us are not so unclear on it. We see no evidence for real cheating. We don’t see this dark conspiracy against the Constitution in our own actions, because it’s not a dark conspiracy. We have our own point of view on what it means, and we’re expressing that sincerely.

You’ve chosen to be stubborn in holding to certain views, certain beliefs. You are 100% free to do that. But you don’t get to grab power anyways as bit by bit, that costs you popular appeal. You have no right to other’s support. That you must earn, sometimes by expressing a principle so great an universal, people must agree, but other times, by giving and taking with other people so that they gets something they want, they believe in, while you get something you want and believe in.

Nothing about the Constitution tells us that you have to get everything you want. Nothing gives you the right to force that on all the rest of us.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 17, 2016 4:15 PM
Comment #408778

Roy Ellis-
Honestly? You’re not too far wrong. I think you give yourself too much credit as being the sole guardians of what you think you are. Actually, I think the Constitution hands all of us that role, in one sense or another.

But math-wise, politics-wise, I do think that either the GOP will fall, and be eventually replaced by a coalition of dissidents against the Democrats, or that this will work itself out in a broadly similar way underneath the surface.

However, I wouldn’t get my hopes up that this party or movement of the party would completely resemble the old one. It will be a creature of its times, much the way Today’s Democratic Party is a creature of the modern day, the Democrats of the Jim Crow era were a product of that day, The Democrats of the New Deal are different from those that came before, etc. If it’s another party, it will be different form its predecessor the way the Republicans were different from the Whigs, and the Whigs were different from the Federalists.

The labels, I think, mask a lot of generational and social movements prompted by changes in society, in technology, immigration, etc. The irony is, the attempt to freeze the old order in place is probably what broke the GOP of today.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 17, 2016 4:23 PM
Comment #408779

Alert - Alert - Alert

a news paper somewhere in the US has endorsed Trump. Finally. Thank you for that I guess. Probably better to have just kept quite.

I completely understand your position Stephen. But, when I read the leaked emails and I see that of some 60 papers who endorsed only one went for Trump. I get a little queezy. A flag goes up.

But, I understand it. The corpocracy has been working behind the scenes to globalise us for some 25 years, starting with Regan, whenever that was. We do recall the NAU and how the BUsh admin tried in vain and then in secret, to make it the law of the land in one policy.

The globalist won’t stop until Hillary gets her dream wish - - - open borders and globalised trade. (suck it up Bernie)

Then we get into the weeds on forcing abortion on demand, gay marriage and so on = = =

Podesta noted he had started some program to revolutionize the catholic religion - - but didn’t bother to tell the catholics. That’s that thing of the libs talking out of both sides of their mouth.

Wasted words, but you get my drift.

Posted by: roy ellis at October 17, 2016 4:51 PM
Comment #408783

It truly is fun to read all the rationalizing here about political parties rising and falling and why they do this and that. Politics is how power and governance is obtained and kept.

Our Founders feared politics and politicians. They did a great job in forming a government that had many checks on consolidation of power in the hands of one party or one branch of government. Beyond that, they defined the rights of individuals that come from a Creator and not from government.

They wisely placed the strings to the national purse in the hands of those most directly responsive to citizens. And, they placed the decision on whether laws followed the Constitution in the hands of judges named by the chief executive with consent of the Senate.

And, despite all their care, thought, and warnings, our Founders still found it necessary to write about remedies when, and if, all their careful planning went awry.

We have achieved a point and political place which our Founders dreaded. Our political parties have become corrupt along with much of the electorate. This is a corruption of morality, duty, spirit, idealism, and honor.

The values and ideas of our Founders and the society of citizens that explored, expanded, conquered and built a thriving nation on this continent are today discounted and discarded. Even those of my generation, who sacrificed much to keep the peace and grow the nation, are being thrown aside as useless and dangerous.

We have replaced belief in a sovereign Creator sanctioning and blessing our efforts; with government devoid of a “higher power”. We have perverted God’s morality with man’s most base desires. Our political parties now govern by pandering to the loudest voices seeking advantage over others.

Money is power. Money has replaced wisdom. We are a nation crumbling from excess. We are a nation bankrupt of idealism and honesty. We are a nation in decline.

The proof lies before your very eyes. Look at our two candidates.

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 17, 2016 5:50 PM
Comment #408784

I actually said our country and culture, Stephen. Not ‘my’ country and culture.
The fact is that our country was founded on the principles of limited government and individual rights. IF Republicans wish to remain relevant in government, they are going to have to move left in order to pander to the ‘dependent’ majority. Leftist government requires larger government at the expense of individual rights.
Discarding our founding principles and embracing leftist government based on ‘liberal/progressive’ policy, is surrendering them.

I still don’t think you quite understand the whole ‘smaller government’ sentiment that swept the nation. While it would have been great if they could get some of their common sense legislation through, I think people mainly sent them there to block the further erosion of their rights.

Older voters like me? Yeah, us people in our 40s are ancient old farts, aren’t we. LOL!
I agree though, our Constitutional views are definitely becoming a thing of the past.

Love of country has nothing to do with language, ethnic identity or political party. It’s about respecting the principles on which the country was founded.

As far as our culture, the lefts hostility towards it is why we are at this crossroad. From the media to Hollywood to sympathetic judges, the left is controlling our culture. That’s the reason for the push back.

Spare me the ‘your people’ bit, Stephen. My people would not have us in this transformation that we are experiencing. They would not be redefining words and reinterpreting the Constitution to bypass the people.

Your quote about the right feeling entitled to power is funny. What you are saying is that the people who want government to leave them alone so they can live their life as they see best, are power hungry madmen. That their efforts to thwart your desires of more government and fewer individual rights, is some kind of abuse.
Do you realize how silly that is?

And yes, Stephen, when it comes to the Constitution, I am very stubborn about holding onto the views of our founders.

“Nothing about the Constitution tells us that you have to get everything you want. Nothing gives you the right to force that on all the rest of us.”

You do realize that I am not the one trying to use government to force things onto you, but you ARE the one using it to force things onto the rest of us?

Posted by: kctim at October 17, 2016 5:59 PM
Comment #408785

I was enjoying an adult beverage in my local watering hole and a guy came in to brag about his fishing trip. He said he pulled up to shore in his boat and a game warden was waiting for them. The game warden wanted to look in their cooler to see if they had illegally claimed some fish.

I had to ask, “Did you let him?”. He responded, “Did I let him! Of course I let him!”.

He saw the entire thing as a normal course of action. The cop says do it and they do it. What he doesn’t realize is that he could have said, “No.”, but he’s been conditioned to discard his 4th amendment right in favor of not experiencing the hassle the game warden would have put him through. The constitution says you can say “No.” The left says, “Just do it and be on your way. Why put up with the hassle when you don’t have to?”.

It’s funny in a depressing kind of way how, like kctim says, “.. the left is controlling our culture.”. It is the left who fostered the idea that cops can intimidate people into forfeiting their constitutional rights. If the shoe was on the other foot, and the culture was controlled by the right, the game warden would have had to have a warrant signed by a judge to look in the cooler and the fisherman would have no reason to allow it otherwise.

It all goes to the fact the left never knows when to quit. If you give them an inch they will eventually take the whole mile. We’re just the frog in the pot of water and the left is controlling the flame.

Posted by: Weary Willie at October 17, 2016 6:36 PM
Comment #408787


RF and KC, very good response. Wish I could wax so eloquent on the Founders, Constitution and such.

I tend to short cut things by copying and pasting but I generally make my point.

https://freedomlawschool.wordpress.com/2011/10/06/freedom-quotes/

Posted by: roy ellis at October 17, 2016 7:02 PM
Comment #408788

Many thanks for your comment Roy. I often just write from the “gut” and find it satisfying.

My “gut” was formed and honed in a time of great peril and great success. A time of plenty; provided by good ideas from good education from good morality, from good patriotism, and from good habits.

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 17, 2016 7:14 PM
Comment #408789

By the way Roy…many thanks for the link you provided giving great quotes by great men.

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 17, 2016 7:17 PM
Comment #408790

Would John Kennedy support Hillary Clinton after saying…

“Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.”

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 17, 2016 7:31 PM
Comment #408791

Those who love our family, country, liberty, pursuit of happiness, constitution, Founders and so on, should not be expected to allow someone who compromised the national security, in no small way, to become President of this country. Lock her up.

These lame brain so-called republicans need to get on the stick or get out - - -

Posted by: roy ellis at October 17, 2016 7:39 PM
Comment #408801

Appreciate the comment, Roy. I too enjoy the link.

I always look forward to these kind of posts from Stephen. I love discussing and debating these important topics.

Posted by: kctim at October 18, 2016 9:28 AM
Comment #408802
1 - Yes, now that the democratic party has fully embraced liberalism, the Republican Party will have to sacrifice our country and culture and move further left if they wish to remain relevant.

One would hope they at the least move back from the extreme right. Eisenhower not Hitler.


2 - As stated time and time again, the ‘Tea Party’ representatives were sent to preserve what rights we have left, not to compromise them away at a slower rate.

Oh BS them low lifes had their own agenda and it was all about forcing others to their will not protecting any rights.Example you say… Religious wars in the middle east. TelAviv Tom and the traitors sending letters to Iran,what right did baggers protect by doing this? Another?… using the government to force their religious views on everyone. They didn’t lose any rights they obfuscated the issues. Nope tea baggers get no respect, they are the false messiahs of rights.

3 - Even a blind, deaf mute can see that our media/celebrities/government has rigged everything in order to force ‘liberalism/progressivism’ to be embraced as mainstream.

I would suggest it is we the people who have voted to get our politics back towards the center from the right. Clinton in a centrist after all.

Privatizing profits and socializing losses or collective rights, well they did expand those starting with Reagan. We were told the “free market” would give opportunity to all yet all we got was corporations merging into conglomerates and dominating business and buying politician or, corruption as we say.

Those who love our family, country, liberty, pursuit of happiness, constitution, Founders and so on,
Wow that sounds like 99% of the people in this country. But I’m thinking you are suggesting it is a much smaller number than that Roy. Of course you would be wrong. Wearing a Chinese made American flag tie pin doesn’t mean you are a patriot. Spouting false accusations isn’t patriotism.
should not be expected to allow someone who compromised the national security, in no small way, to become President of this country. Lock her up.

You could be talking about the DoS for since at least the turn of the century in your own exaggerated way. What was actually done, Roy, what damage? This is political theater created to confuse the issues. You would have us elect a man without integrity or values based upon myths misinformation half truths and outright lies. No thanks.

I would suggest we lock up the people who force these leaders to use private emails. Those with a political agenda, those who make their living as propagandist for the conservative movement, those who slander and misinform. They are much more of a threat to the country.


Would John Kennedy support Hillary Clinton after saying…

Would JFK support Trump and his plans to build a wall. Are you thinking if we call it the liberty wall it would be ok? Would JFK support Trump and his statement “I could shoot someone and not lose votes”. Maybe if he used patriot bullets fired from a freedom rifle?

You know you guys are starting to sound like whipped puppies and the election isn’t over. Did Trump concede already? Resorting to those touchy-feely sentiments you dredge up when you have nothing but silliness to contribute to the political discussion.

Comparing the founding fathers to conservatives today is an insult to the founding fathers. A grave insult, you should be ashamed of yourselves. Yet you guys wallow in it. Can’t you see you are being played by movement leaders? Using an Alinsky tactic BTW. You guys are the reason the country is where it is at today, deep in debt so lets go to war and cut taxes.

Nation building or I know lets call it liberty building of nations so you guys will think it is a good idea to kill others, take over their country and wonder why they continue to fight for their freedom. They are conservatives as well these jihadist. That is the group you hang out with. Don’t be like the people of Germany of the 30’s who fell for the same stuff guys.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 18, 2016 12:15 PM
Comment #408803

J2,

There is nothing about the Republicans platform that can be considered ‘extreme right.’

No Republican or Conservative promoted any agenda for ‘Religious wars in the middle east.’ FFS man.

Retaining the right to exercise ones religion and living according to ones religious beliefs, is not ‘using the government to force their religious views on everyone.’

While it can certainly be argued that Hillary once was somewhat centrist, her embracing liberal/progressive policy in order to pander to the far-left Sanders nuts and dependency class has negated any argument about it.

Your Hitler and 1930s BS talking points do nothing but highlight your inability to debate your point of view with facts. And your weak attempt to label those you simply disagree with as brainwashed ‘jihadists,’ is pathetic.

Posted by: kctim at October 18, 2016 1:05 PM
Comment #408806

kc, do think j2 knows what the “TEA” in Tea Party stands for? He certainly has studied the Nazi’s it appears when he wrote; “I would suggest we lock up the people who force these leaders to use private emails.”

I got a good chuckle out of this one kc. We now have it on great authority from j2t2’s keyboard that Hillary was forced by conservatives to use private email when SoS.

Mea Culpa

This is interesting.

“In Illinois, Governor Bruce Rauner recently signed off on a law that will force pro-life clinics and physicians to promote abortion – regardless of their religious, moral, or ethical views.

In Virginia, the ACLU is urging the government to force the Gloucester County School Board to revise its policies to authorize a girl to use boys’ private facilities.

In Vermont, state officials with the Board of Medical Practice and the Office of Professional Regulation have decided that state mandates related to Vermont’s assisted suicide law require all health care professionals to offer doctor-prescribed death as an option to their patients – whatever the doctors’ personal views on the sanctity of life.

And, in Massachusetts, the state’s (ironically named) Commission Against Discrimination and Attorney General Maura Healey have decided that the commonwealth’s public accommodations law requires churches to make all of their changing rooms, shower facilities, restrooms, and other intimate areas available to people of all sexes and gender interpretations.”

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 18, 2016 4:34 PM
Comment #408807

Link for quote directly above…

http://adflegal.org/detailspages/blog-details/allianceedge/2016/10/14/a-snapshot-of-america-s-legal-landscape-on-the-eve-of-election

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 18, 2016 4:35 PM
Comment #408808

Liberals won’t admit that our “Rights” are being eroded but…

“Officials at Iowa State confirmed that if student Robert Dunn or any other student declines to certify that he will comply with these policies, his graduation may be placed on hold. The policies state that they “may cover those activities which, although not severe, persistent, or pervasive enough to meet the legal definition of harassment, are unacceptable…” and explain that even “First Amendment protected speech activities” may constitute harassment “depending on the circumstances,” including whether other students believe the speech is not “legitimate,” not “necessary,” or lacks a “constructive purpose.”

http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/10096

“Alliance Defending Freedom attorneys representing an Iowa church filed a federal lawsuit against members of the Iowa Civil Rights Commission, among others, to stop the government from censoring the church’s statements on biblical sexuality and from forcing the church to open its restrooms and showers to members of the opposite sex.”

http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/10017

“It’s bad enough if the government tells you what you can’t say, but a law that tells you what you must say—under threat of severe punishment—is even more unjust and dangerous.”

http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/9990

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 18, 2016 4:42 PM
Comment #408810

Liberals won’t admit that our “Rights” are being eroded but…

“Officials at Iowa State confirmed that if student Robert Dunn or any other student declines to certify that he will comply with these policies, his graduation may be placed on hold. The policies state that they “may cover those activities which, although not severe, persistent, or pervasive enough to meet the legal definition of harassment, are unacceptable…” and explain that even “First Amendment protected speech activities” may constitute harassment “depending on the circumstances,” including whether other students believe the speech is not “legitimate,” not “necessary,” or lacks a “constructive purpose.”

http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/10096

“Alliance Defending Freedom attorneys representing an Iowa church filed a federal lawsuit against members of the Iowa Civil Rights Commission, among others, to stop the government from censoring the church’s statements on biblical sexuality and from forcing the church to open its restrooms and showers to members of the opposite sex.”

http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/10017

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 18, 2016 4:42 PM
Comment #408811

Liberals won’t admit that our “Rights” are being eroded but…

“Officials at Iowa State confirmed that if student Robert Dunn or any other student declines to certify that he will comply with these policies, his graduation may be placed on hold. The policies state that they “may cover those activities which, although not severe, persistent, or pervasive enough to meet the legal definition of harassment, are unacceptable…” and explain that even “First Amendment protected speech activities” may constitute harassment “depending on the circumstances,” including whether other students believe the speech is not “legitimate,” not “necessary,” or lacks a “constructive purpose.”

http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/10096

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 18, 2016 4:43 PM
Comment #408812

On a far more relevant note, Donald Trump routinely uses lawsuits to harass the press and suppress first amendment rights of freedom of speech. He wants to “open up the libel laws” and make it easier to attack anyone who attacks him.

“We’re going to open up those libel laws. So when The New York Times writes a hit piece which is a total disgrace … we can sue them and win money instead of having no chance of winning because they’re totally protected.”

“… The corporate media in our country is no longer involved in journalism…”

“Their agenda is to elect crooked Hillary Clinton at any cost, at any price, no matter how many lives they destroy.”

Trump also wants to do away with the Free Exercise Clause in the first amendment, by suppressing the right of Muslims to practice. Really, it is a textbook example.

He also wants to trash the eighth amendment.

“What do you think about waterboarding? I like it a lot. I don’t think it’s tough enough. So we can’t do waterboarding, but they can do chopping off heads, drowning people in sealed cages? You have to fight fire with fire.”

And-

“We’re fighting a very politically correct war, and the other thing is with the terrorists: You have to take out their families.”

We’re not talking some obscure official in Iowa. We’re talking about the Republican presidential candidate.

Posted by: phx8 at October 18, 2016 6:02 PM
Comment #408813

Are young folks, especially black young folk, helped by increasing the national minimum wage?

“Surely the intelligentsia of the left have access to empirical evidence and the wit to understand such evidence. But the real question is whether they have the stomach to face the prospect that their crusades have hurt the very people they claim to be helping.”

http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2016/10/18/the-left-and-the-masses-n2233536

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 18, 2016 6:06 PM
Comment #408814


Iran Launches War Drills Amid Accusations U.S. Breaking Nuke Deal
Uses American-made jets, planes in air force drills


“Iran’s outrage over the issue comes just months after the Obama administration made a secret cash payment to Iran of $1.7 billion as part of what lawmakers described as a ransom payment to free American hostages.

The Obama administration also has moved forward with new sanctions relief that is expected to provide Iran with even more financial resources, a large portion of which are suspected by Congress of being allocated to the country’s military and terrorist organizations.”

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/iran-launches-war-drills-amid-accusations-u-s-breaking-nuke-deal/

Obama and Kerry play the role of dunce well in the case of Iran. Being played like a fiddle doesn’t seem to bother either of these guys and the media barely notices.

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 18, 2016 6:43 PM
Comment #408816

”..a large portion of which are suspected by Congress of being allocated to the country’s military and terrorist organizations.”

Royal,

We don’t have to guess about what Iran intends to do with 50 billion. It has agreements with Airbus and Boeing to purchase commercial airliners worth 25 billion dollars to each manufacturer.

Posted by: Rich at October 18, 2016 9:09 PM
Comment #408820


“after the Obama administration made a secret cash payment to Iran of $1.7 billion as part of what lawmakers described as a ransom payment to free American hostages.”

It’s their freaking money, and it always has been their freaking money.

It was never ours.

Ever.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at October 19, 2016 7:00 AM
Comment #408821

Royal, I have no doubt that J2 knows and understands exactly what the TEA in Tea Party actually stands for, but it seems he has allowed himself to be taken by ‘movement leaders’ and is now full of hate for his fellow Americans who dare not follow the leftist agenda.
This J2 is nothing like the strong, honest opinionated man that used to post on here.

Posted by: kctim at October 19, 2016 9:31 AM
Comment #408822

Once again, the $1.7 billion was Iranian money. We were just ‘holding’ it for them. In exchange for letting them have their money back we arranged a swap of Iranian and American prisoners, and obtained a non-nuclear proliferation agreement-

Done with the aid of our negotiating partners: China, Russia, Germany, France, and Britain.

Why is this so hard for conservatives to process?

Oh. Wait. Obama must be wrong at all times, always. And negotiating partners do not exist in the conservative mindset. No such thing!

Posted by: phx8 at October 19, 2016 9:41 AM
Comment #408824

Phx8,

People routinely use lawsuits and the threat of lawsuits, to harass people who support traditional marriage and separate men and women’s bathrooms. To harass schools who do not snuff out any and all possible references to religion.

The left has spent the last 20 years preaching about how FOX News is not legitimate journalism. That their agenda is to elect wealthy, racist, corrupt evil Republicans at any cost, at any price.

For decades now, the left has used frivolous lawsuits to threaten and dictate where Americans can and cannot freely exercise their right to practice their Christian religion.

Hard to take someones concerns about freedom of speech seriously when they are not consistent in their own beliefs.

Trying to apply the 8th Amendment to terrorists is a loser for the left. I definitely wouldn’t make that a centerpiece of your campaigns.

Posted by: kctim at October 19, 2016 9:59 AM
Comment #408829
kc, do think j2 knows what the “TEA” in Tea Party stands for? He certainly has studied the Nazi’s it appears when he wrote; “I would suggest we lock up the people who force these leaders to use private emails.”

Royal Don’t you think these guys who make a living off of creating myths, misinformation, half truths and outright lies should be held to the same standards you and Roy hold Clinton too?

From It Can’t Happen Here (1935): “But he saw too that in America the struggle was befogged by the fact that the worst Fascists were they who disowned the word ‘Fascism’ and preached enslavement to Capitalism under the style of Constitutional and Traditional Native American Liberty.”
http://technoccult.net/archives/2010/03/03/who-really-said-when-fascism-comes-to-america-it-will-come-wrapped-in-the-flag-and-waving-a-cross/

Royal, I have no doubt that J2 knows and understands exactly what the TEA in Tea Party actually stands for, but it seems he has allowed himself to be taken by ‘movement leaders’ and is now full of hate for his fellow Americans who dare not follow the leftist agenda.

I have no movement leaders to be taken in by kctim. I don’t waste my time on hate nor agenda either. When we elect leaders to Congress that have you convinced they don’t negotiate with others in the political spectrum then we have problems. One, you expecting this and two, them doing it.

When many American believe Trump is our salvation because Clinton will destroy the country we have a problem, and we do, because many Americans think this is a life or death election for the country.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 19, 2016 11:33 AM
Comment #408830

phx8, which side are you on? Hillbilly says Russia is our worst enemy. Even after she hit the reset button she insists Russia is out to get us.

Now, you’re saying it was Russia who helped get us the Iran deal! How good can that deal be if our enemy helped craft it?

Posted by: Weary Willie at October 19, 2016 11:45 AM
Comment #408831

J2, you parrot the movement leaders almost word for word. You write off opposing opinions as them being brainwashed, and you dismiss facts that do not support your own opinions as “myths, misinformation, half truths and outright lies.”
And now, just like we see everywhere else from the left, you are also labeling those who disagree you as racists, sexists, xenophobes, bigots etc… and have thrown in absurd comparisons to Hitler and ridiculous comments about Nazis and brownshirts.

“When many American believe Trump is our salvation because Clinton will destroy the country we have a problem,”

And when Clinton wins the election it will show that even more Americans believe she is our salvation because Trump will destroy the country. Of course, you won’t see that as the problem it is.

“and we do, because many Americans think this is a life or death election for the country.”

With the ever growing number of leftists in our country and after 8 years of Obama, this is a ‘life and death election’ for our Republic. Our country will still be a country, but one based on government, not individuals.

Posted by: kctim at October 19, 2016 12:37 PM
Comment #408835

No way will I accept Hillary as a President. What’s done is done. She compromised national security for her own personal gain and that genie can’t be put back in the bottle, ever.

She, or a similar compromiser, cannot stand for President.

LEROY The Traitor

Posted by: roy ellis at October 19, 2016 1:49 PM
Comment #408837
J2, you parrot the movement leaders almost word for word.

I wasn’t aware there was a liberal movement kctim, not in the sense of the conservative movement anyway.

You write off opposing opinions as them being brainwashed, and you dismiss facts that do not support your own opinions as “myths, misinformation, half truths and outright lies.”

Sometimes I do, like when you tell me lowering taxes will create jobs and tell us the “job creators” will…. well you get the point. How long ,I ask, do we need to fall for this line and then complain about the debt.

And now, just like we see everywhere else from the left, you are also labeling those who disagree you as racists, sexists, xenophobes, bigots etc… and have thrown in absurd comparisons to Hitler and ridiculous comments about Nazis and brownshirts.

I do think all of us are racists, sexists, etc. to varying degrees, some more than others, some intentionally so. When you take position that are more extreme and in line with the intentionally so then yes I might mention it.

As far as Hitler and brownshirts I would say you need to take a better look at what is said. I compare conservatives today to the people of Germany in the ‘30’s. I do this because I see many similarities. Grasping at Trump as the guy who can ave the country is an example. He can’t even get along with his own party, whom he will have to work with to get things done in Congress unless he is just gonna declare himself a dictator, of course.

The German were down after losing WWI and having to pay reparations to the world. Things were bad, like in 2007/09 only worse and longer for Germans. They allowed themselves to be fooled by the Nazi’s. IMHO the average Joe conservatives of today are doing the same thing. Many will tell you how bad things are today under Obama despite data to the contrary. They think Clinton will be worse, an end to the country some accounts.

So it can happen here. Extremist in the conservative movement have riled up the people with myths, misinformation, half truths and outright lies not facts as you would have us believe.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 19, 2016 2:27 PM
Comment #408840

j2, the only conservative extremist I know is Hannity. Could a one man band stir up all that much hoopla?

Trying to be rational, everything foreign policy issue Obama, Clinton, and Kerry have broached has … FAILED …

Today, the Philippines are in the streets wanting the US out. The ME and N. Africa are toast. And, you and I owe $20T for that.

People should be worked up over the leaked emails. They have given people incite into the inner workings of a criminal enterprise of sn unbelievable scale.

We can be clear about this: If Hillary wins your wages are goin on down. Immigrants will continue to flow and the corpocracy will win win win win win win win win win and so on …

Now, POTUS has laid the ground work to take care of you in later years. This Universal Basics I…, (UBI) is another form of bigtime entitlement. It might put say, $10k in your pocket monthly. You gotta luv that … But, it also represents 16% of the GNP. But, hey, Soros has got the scratch, not a problem …

So, if we can get some UBI when we need it nobody will want to fight, or even work, and so on - - -

Otherwise - - -

Posted by: roy ellis at October 19, 2016 3:04 PM
Comment #408843

We don’t have to guess about what Iran intends to do with 50 billion. It has agreements with Airbus and Boeing to purchase commercial airliners worth 25 billion dollars to each manufacturer.
Posted by: Rich at October 18, 2016 9:09 PM

Hey Rich…let us know when the money is in the bank for Boeing. Lots of obstacles ahead for them.

“In exchange for letting them have their money back we arranged a swap of Iranian and American prisoners, and obtained a non-nuclear proliferation agreement-“

Goodness…so naive.

j2t2 gave a link to a blog which describes itself as…

“Technoccult is a general interest blog for weirdos.”

LOL…yup…j2 is a “weirdo”. Just imagine using a blog for proof of anything. So very childish.


Posted by: Royal Flush at October 19, 2016 5:07 PM
Comment #408845

Royal,

Republican members of Congress are attempting to block the Boeing deal with Iran. Go figure!

Posted by: Rich at October 19, 2016 5:15 PM
Comment #408849

The Iranians grabbed a couple more American’s today. Let’s see … that’s gonna be another $1.2-1.5B based on past ransoms.

I wonder if POTUS has had ‘more time to be flexible’ with Putin yet?

Leroy the Traitor

Posted by: roy ellis at October 19, 2016 8:00 PM
Comment #408860

J2,

“I wasn’t aware there was a liberal movement kctim, not in the sense of the conservative movement anyway.”

Then you are unaware of this country’s history, current events, and the majority opinion of leftists in our country.
The Conservative movement you are always harping about is based on preventing the further spread of liberalism throughout our government.

“like when you tell me lowering taxes will create jobs and tell us the “job creators” will….”

Actually, what I tell you is that I disagree with excessive taxation for the purpose of redistributing wealth. I am VERY pro-choice, J2.
I could care less if excessive taxes could guarantee 0% unemployment.

“How long ,I ask, do we need to fall for this line and then complain about the debt.”

For as long as it takes you guys to understand that money does not trump our individual rights.

“I compare conservatives today to the people of Germany in the ‘30’s. I do this because I see many similarities.”

And yet you said nothing about the throngs of leftists who did the exact same thing in 08 and 12 with Obama being the only guy who can save the country.

“Things were bad, like in 2007/09 only worse and longer for Germans. They allowed themselves to be fooled by the Nazi’s.”

Sigh. They also did not have the Constitutional protections and history that we have, J2. There was a vacuum effect and socialism was seen as being the savior.

“Many will tell you how bad things are today under Obama despite data to the contrary.”

There is no data to the contrary, J2. If you care about individual rights, the form of government we were founded on and our culture, things are bad.

“Extremist in the conservative movement have riled up the people with myths, misinformation, half truths and outright lies”

Well that sure explains all the rioting, looting and violence that we have all witnessed for almost a decade now, doesn’t it. The coordinated efforts to threaten, intimidate and engage in violence at the political meetings of opponents? ALL brought about by this vast right wing Conservative movement conspiracy, wasn’t it.
FFS, J2.


Posted by: kctim at October 20, 2016 9:32 AM
Comment #409016

Royal Flush-
I think you misunderstand Locke’s formulation He was never saying that these rights just spontaneously appeared. Rather, he was saying that these were rights that could not be separated from a person Jefferson, you should remember, was closer to being a deist or a Unitarian than he was the kind of fundamentalist that you would identify with. Without a government, you have nothing to guarantee those rights but good will.

Not all of the founders were believers, as you would identify them. Many of them thought your insistence on forcing “god’s morality” on others to be antithetical to what they believe. They went to great lengths, in a time where this wasn’t fashionable, to pry the church’s hands off the state, and nullify the ability of the state to impose on religion.

As for culture or civilization’s decline? I think a lot of the things that the Right has done in this country has brought us to a low point. But I can’t say this is the lowest point we’ve ever been in. Not with what I know about history. Things have been worse on all fronts. Our question is whether we want an inflection point here, a point where we say, “this hasn’t worked, let’s try something different.”

The trouble is, the GOP is insisting on preserving the nation’s order, as they made it, in amber. It’s insisting that we change nothing, and has blocked us every step of the way. But in their mania to take this to the limits, the right has so hidebound itself that it has no rational path forward.

Change is inevitable. You can adapt well, or adapt poorly. If you’re clever enough, you can change, yet keep your values the same. If you’re wise enough, you can know when it’s better just to let things go.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 25, 2016 12:56 PM
Comment #409027

How can you say the right is responsible for keeping this country’s status in “amber”? The left has been forcing change upon this country for over a century.

You’re using the right as a scapegoat. Progressivism is responsible for the ills of this country and uses the right to shift blame, just as you have done in your last comment.

Posted by: Weary Willie at October 26, 2016 8:56 AM
Comment #409047

You’re kidding yourself if you think any one group is causing everything. It’s a denial of personal responsibility, that you can be part of the problem, not merely part of the solution. I don’t think you get my specific policy point. You guys had a bit of a heyday under Bush. Some of you might not think it, but that’s because your expectations are ridiculous, given the near even divide on the political spectrum.

The basic line of attack for the GOP, with record filibusters during the Democratic majority, with refusing Obama his final supreme court judge, and with a scorched earth approach to opposing him, has been to keep Obama from changing what the Gingrich Congress developed, and what the Bush Trifecta perfected. The way our system works, you really need legislation and political action in Congress to make big changes. So your people have prevented that. Saying that is not scapegoating.

Scapegoating, by definition, is assigning blame where none belongs. The Republicans, though, have actually done everything they can not only to stop Obama, but roll back any kind of progressive movement at all. It’s not unjust to blame them for exactly what they did.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 27, 2016 11:42 AM
Comment #409079

Are you trying to say Democratics are responsible for NOTHING over the last 100 years?

I think what you mean is Republicans are standing in the way of the Progressive’s march toward socialism. The left wants to control from the top down and the Republicans are finally saying enough is enough.

The last thirty years has been spent trying to stifle the left’s relentless quest toward absolute control at the federal level.

Posted by: Weary Willie at October 27, 2016 9:44 PM
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