Democrats & Liberals Archives

Not Just Your Answer, But Your Algorithm

Trump finally admits that Obama was born here. After months on the campaign trail. After years of making the claim. And why say this now? Because he had some critical insight? Because he discovered some critical facts? The issue is, this seems less like he’s mending his conspiracy theory ways, and more that he’s just saying what allows him to pass for a decent, sane human being. Does he really deserve much of any credit, if that’s the entire point of his “conversion?”

According to certain Republican officials, a person can be considered to be a true citizen of this country, if they but show their officials a birth certificate. Apparently, though, when the President showed his back in 2011, right before he dropped the hammer on Bin Laden, that just simply didn't count. Trump made a big deal out of sending top investigators to find the truth, and afterwards said he thought the Birth Certificate was a fraud.

Now? He claims credit for forcing Obama to come forward with it.

He did nothing of the sort.

Of course, he blames Clinton for all this, for stirring up this controversy. Now, while it may be true that certain Clinton supporters, way back in 2008, might have made these accusations, they were never picked up in the mainstream by Clinton or her Campaign.

But try telling Trump voters this.

There's a way of arguing things really that amounts to a bunch of context-less twisting of any given fact they can find to come to the conclusion they want. The stuff I heard about concerning Hillary Clinton's health was just absurd. She apparently had a fatal case of consumption that she died of two years ago, and they've been using a body double who now has a brain tumor and a battery attached to her brain.

Does anything stop them from coming to this conclusion? Say, like a lack of evidence? Nope.

Does it trouble them that what seem like dozens of special congressional committees on Benghazi haven't seemed to bring up anything, and the Email controversy that was supposed to destroy her, only gave her a glancing slap on the wrist.

Nope. Why?

Conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theory, in essence, is about being able to lie your ass off in spite of the presence of a boatload of contradictory evidence. Birth Certificate show up? It's a forgery! Doing badly in the polls? They're skewed! The media's against him! Economy doing well? No it's not, it's all a fake! Unskew the BLS! 65% unemployment, OMG!

And of course, because Trump supporters have been primed to trust him? They'll buy it. Repeat it. Build their entire world views on it.

Worse, build a picture of how things are going that hides both the true successes (a long, stable, if somewhat modest economic recovery), and the true problems (that the speculators on Wall Street are still up to no good.)

It helps create the kind of idiocy that has us risking default on our national debt, that has Trump thinking it's alright to start a war with Iran over rude hand gestures from their Navy. It's the triumph of narrative embeddedness over situational awareness.

The real world has no obligation to value our interpretation of it over it's own state of being. While we're trying to force it to work the way we want it to, it will simply unfold the way it is bound to unfold. If we surround ourselves with a story that's false, confront problems that aren't real and neglect those that are, then we will only succeed by luck.

And that's why it's important why Trump is changing his story. Whether he's sincere. Because If he isn't sincere, then the crank-type aspect of his character that ignores reality, or the dishonest aspect of it still exists, and he's still processing the world around him in a way that will give birth, to pardon the metaphor, to even worse stupidity and lies.

Look, some of you are conservatives. I ask you something: does believing in conservatism mean that your policies are always going to work out? No.

Or, coming at it from my point of view? Let's say the Democrats propose a policy. Policy goes through, is enacted, but it doesn't work properly. It may be entirely consistent with my principles, but the real world is disagreeing with it. No matter how hard I push it... in fact, if I push it harder, it will only fail further. Do I want that? No. What is my remedy? To accept the other side's ideas that nothing I put forward can actually work? No.

My remedy is to be willing to kill my darlings, policy-wise, but not arbitrarily, but by measuring the facts, and strategizing accordingly. The substance of how the world reacts to the policy, the fine details and facts of that, are key to properly expressing whatever principles I might hold for government.

A small government conservative isn't necessarily doing his party or movement any favors by doing a hack and slash job of rolling back liberal programs, regulations, laws, etc. If those rules, those programs were actually doing good, and things become worse, then that builds up as a disproof of Conservative principles, builds up demand for alternatives, including regrowing government. A good conservative piece of law would reduce regulatory overhead, but by being elegant and shaping the policy with the real world in mind, do as much good if not more. Or, to put it another way, that Government is best that CAN govern least, because it's been set up well enough to prevent the kinds of problems that would ask for more intervention.

I would say that observing fiscal discipline doesn't hurt the Democrats. There are times when it's inappropriate to be austere, but I think if we can create new programs, or reshuffle resources to better effect, we're doing well by Liberalism, even if we're not conforming to the stereotype of what our position is supposed to be.

Anarchy doesn't benefit small government conservatism. Profligacy doesn't benefit welfare-state liberalism. Efficiency, in either case, is about getting the most bang for your buck, the most effect for the least cost.

But to take this approach, you cannot merely approach things as an ideologue, and you cannot approach them as a demagogue who shifts with political winds. You got to get a stable idea of the real world that is founded on facts, and you have to be willing to accommodate where those facts invalidate your assumptions as a political thinker.

Does any of this sound like Donald Trump's thought process? Does he seem to be a person all that concerned with the facts? Does he seem to be a person whose idea of where things stand depends on solid principles? Does he seem to be a person willing to adjust his beliefs when the real world challenges them?

When I voted for Barack Obama, I voted for him because I felt he was the most sure-footed analytical mind in that race. Hillary? Better than the Republicans, but nowhere near the game-changer that this guy was. McCain? His party wouldn't give him the flexibility, and really, they showed no signs of acknowledging where the real world was telling them they were wrong.

And Palin? Palin, very often, didn't seem to be on the same planet with the rest of us. Her selection was an insult to the intelligence of the voter.

The Trump Candidacy is little better than that. It's an outgrowth of the politics that brought Palin to the forefront, politics rooted in trying to deny that bad choices were made, bad words were spoken, and that the pure ideology of that party wasn't perfect enough to be a basis for the whole nation's political order. It's no wonder a man like Trump became nominee! He's the perfect person for it. He glories in his achievements, but doesn't bother to tell you they ended in failure. He glories in himself, has to be forced to admit mistakes in a way that makes pulling teeth look less painful. He makes up his own facts on the fly, and bitterly challenges those who dispute him.

I think Republicans should consider Trump a sign that the resurgence that began with Reagan has run its course. This particular incarnation of the GOP is dying, and its dying painfully, embarrassingly. We can keep it on life support, hell, supercharge it by electing Trump, but it will still be dying, especially as Trump's policies and choices for things like the Supreme Court drive further wedges between voters and the GOP.

It's time to realize that Trump is damaged goods. The box shows a splendid china set, with gold tracings and glowing porcelain, but inside, not all the plates are there, and the ones that you do get are cracked or shattered. He won't save the GOP, he'll bring an even worse end to its current chapter. He may even take an early out, if his self-indulgent predecessor, Sarah Palin, is any indication.

Trump can be the motivation for the GOP to begin a new story, a more positive story in 2016, or it can be yet another signpost on the way to dark places from which the party will be decades returning.

The choice is up to the voters.

Posted by Stephen Daugherty at September 16, 2016 2:05 PM
Comments
Comment #407524

And if you Remember right Stephen it was your girl Hillary that started that in the 2008 election cycle.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at September 16, 2016 4:47 PM
Comment #407525

Daugherty poses a scenario of proper thinking…

“Policy goes through, is enacted, but it doesn’t work properly. It may be entirely consistent with my principles, but the real world is disagreeing with it. No matter how hard I push it… in fact, if I push it harder, it will only fail further. Do I want that? No. What is my remedy? My remedy is to be willing to kill my darlings, policy-wise, but not arbitrarily, but by measuring the facts, and strategizing accordingly.”

OK…Are you willing to “kill” the Left’s darling Obamacare? It meets your criteria of not working.

Daugherty writes, “I think Republicans should consider Trump a sign that the resurgence that began with Reagan has run its course. This particular incarnation of the GOP is dying, and its dying painfully, embarrassingly.”

Please tell us what that “resurgence” is and why we don’t like it.

The economy did great under Reagan. Republicans retook the House after decades and now control the Senate, a majority of State governorship’s and state legislative bodies.

Sure looks like achievement to me.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 16, 2016 4:53 PM
Comment #407528

“And if you Remember right Stephen it was your girl Hillary that started that in the 2008 election cycle.”

That is a bald faced lie.

Hillary Clinton NEVER promoted Birtherism, and neither did her campaign. An unpaid staffer in IA sent some e-mails promoting it, and when that was discovered, the staffer was immediately fired. The Clinton campaign manager called David Plouffe, the Obama campaign manager, and apologized. That should have been the end of the matter.

However, people like Donald Trump picked it up. Trump made it his issue. It is, at its heart, a fundamentally racist accusation. Trump repeated it again and again. He repeated it on television shows, at appearances, and on Twitter. There is a long body of evidence, both in print and on video, and it is all in Trump’s own words.

This particular lie about HRC starting it is false. It is intended to give the ‘basket of deplorables’- the racists, bigots, xenophobes, misogynists, homophobes, and others- cover for their hatred. It is an attempt to confuse the issue, as if both sides did it.

Posted by: phx8 at September 16, 2016 5:31 PM
Comment #407529

We seem to be at a turning point for the campaign, and maybe for the country.

It started when Hillary Clinton made her ‘basket of deplorables’ remark. She was absolutely right. At first, she apologized for suggesting “half” of the GOP belonged to that group, as if it were only a question of percentage, but it took hold and propagated.

It happened with the mainstream media, too. They have been criticized for their coverage because they have tried to maintain a balance, and give both sides equal time. That does not work with Trump. He makes outrageous comments on an almost daily basis, and that attracts media coverage. They want the ratings. Who knows what Trump will say today! But Trump broke the media. He tells so many lies they can not keep up. A fact checker found Trump told 71 lies in just one town hall meeting. Another found 30 lies in 40 minutes during a foreign policy speech. The MSM have enabled this and they know it. They find themselves giving the same coverage to accusations about e-mails as they do to Trump refusing to release his returns, promoting racism, promising everything to everyone and then reversing it, and so on.

Now it looks like the media has had enough; for example, on CNN the hosts are openly calling Trump a liar, and pointing out his lies as he tells them.

Trump put out the lie KAP repeated about HRC and Birtherism. People are not having anymore, and neither is the MSM. They are done with being played.

Let’s hope it is soon enough. Although it is unlikely, it is certainly possible Trump could still win. We would become a country led by white supremacists and nativists. We would be pushing the poison of Limbaugh, Hannity, and the Alt-Right, and following a man with no scruples and virtually no interest in governing other than the degree to which it stokes his own narcissism.

Posted by: phx8 at September 16, 2016 5:49 PM
Comment #407531

Royal Flush-

OK…Are you willing to “kill” the Left’s darling Obamacare? It meets your criteria of not working.

Me(right after what you quoted):
The substance of how the world reacts to the policy, the fine details and facts of that, are key to properly expressing whatever principles I might hold for government.

To elaborate: rather than accept your wholesale rejection as true, what I would be doing is paying attention to what did and did not work, and repairing what did not work. It’s called nuance. It can be helpful sometimes.

As for the resurgence… you know, the rise of the conservatives in the Republican Party, and their pushback after years of accepting the New Deal order as given? The full return of the GOP to the majority after decades out of it? The final, full restoration to power with the combination of that GOP Majority with Bush in the White House?

That. That is the cycle I think is coming to an end. I think the Republicans have picked a pretty masochistic way to do it, giving it over to people who are definitely more bark than bite when it comes to competence and political skill within a constitutional system like ours.

Your achievement is accumulating costs that citizens are less and less willing to pay.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 16, 2016 6:32 PM
Comment #407532

We read nearly weekly of major health insurers pulling out of Obamacare due to huge losses. The program is a failure not because I think so, but the proof of what the insurance companies themselves are doing.

The Left’s answer, and Daugherty’s hypocrisy, will be to pour more money down this mole hole. “It’s called nuance” on the Left and reality of failure on the Right.

Daugherty’s assessment of “resurgence” is so silly and convoluted it is impossible to respond.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 16, 2016 6:42 PM
Comment #407533

She may not have promoted it but she started the BULLS**T phx8.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at September 16, 2016 7:02 PM
Comment #407534

Who started this round of the birther issue? Wasn’t it a reporter, right out of the blue, ask Trump about verifying his position on Obama? Isn’t this how it started?

The reporter asked the question and Trump told him he wasn’t going to comment on it. It seems that answer just opened the door for that reporter, and many on the left, to fill in the blanks with their own news. They manufactured this issue by dredging it up on their own.

Posted by: Weary Willie at September 16, 2016 8:20 PM
Comment #407537
she started the BULLS**T phx8.

What exactly did she do or say? Please provide a link to demonstrate. So far, all we have is a rogue volunteer in Iowa who was fired once Clinton’s 2008 campaign discovered what happened.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 16, 2016 9:43 PM
Comment #407538

Just to back up what Phx8 wrote in comment #407528 above:

“There was a volunteer coordinator, I believe in late 2007, I think in December. One of our volunteer coordinators in one of the counties in Iowa, I don’t recall whether they were an actual a paid staffer, but they did forward an email that promoted the conspiracy.”

“The birther conspiracy?” Blitzer asked.
“Yeah. Hillary made the decision immediately to let that person go. We let that person go, and it was so, you know, beyond the pale, Wolf, and you know, so not worthy the kind of campaign that certainly Hillary wanted to run or that we as a staff wanted to run that I called David Plouffe, who was obviously managing Barack Obama’s campaign in ‘07, to apologize and basically say this is not coming from us.”


SOURCE Posted by: Warren Porter at September 16, 2016 9:49 PM
Comment #407539
Who started this round of the birther issue?


Dr. Benjamin Carson

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 16, 2016 9:56 PM
Comment #407541

Warped, OK maybe not Hillary but there is some e mails and messages that may suggest that her team back in 2007-08 Namely Sid Blumenthal sent a message claiming Obama not born in the U.S. also there was a few things saying Penn suggested the same. I just googled who started Obama’s birther issue, and found some articles claiming this. No doubt Trump was the biggest mouth piece on the issue.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at September 16, 2016 10:31 PM
Comment #407542

Royal Flush-
Tell me, what happens when you repeal Obamacare, and you have to deal with the millions of uninsured?

Natural selection?

You want nuance because big policy shifts have broad implications. Even if you do it slowly, getting rid of Obamacare means bringing back all the problems. Only now, they’re not merely the consequences of an unthinking unfeeling market. They’re the consequences of your actions.

Speaking of which, Heard what’s going down with Brownback and others? Bit by bit, the consequences are playing out, austerity, tax cuts, cuts to education and other services… In my own home state, kids denied special education classes because of quotas set up by your Tea Partier Governor and his pet legislature. In Florida, the Zika virus spreads, with the efforts to hinder that epidemic stymied by shortsighted decisions Rick Scott made.

The problem is, really, that the GOP has left itself with no options, no real way to back out of ridiculous positions. That’s what happens when rhetoric leads rather than competence. Any idiot with enough blarney can learn to say the right words. Only true leaders can break from that to find working strategies to govern by.

Rich KAPitan-
It’s really not much use trying to pin this on Hillary. Some on her staff flirted with it, then the campaign stamped it out. It’s the GOP that got married to the idea, Trump especially.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 16, 2016 10:38 PM
Comment #407543
I just googled who started Obama’s birther issue, and found some articles claiming this

In order to become an informed voter, it takes more than just googling a couple of articles. True critical thinking requires examining primary sources instead of just trusting the conclusion of a secondary source. For instance:

there was a few things saying Penn suggested the same


Here’s the memo in question. While there is a bullet mentioning that Obama’s “lack of American roots”, this refers to the fact he spent his childhood overseas. There is nothing suggesting he was born anywhere by Hawaii.

Sid Blumenthal sent a message claiming Obama not born in the U.S.

Was Blumenthal a part of “Clinton’s Team”? While he is a close personal friend and confidant, I cannot find evidence he played a formal role in her 2008 campaign effort. In any case, he vehemently denies having said what has been claimed. In today’s Globe, I read

There is no evidence that Clinton or her 2008 campaign spread birther questions about Obama during their 2008 primary contest, although fact-checkers have found some of her supporters trafficked in the rumors.

On Friday, a former Washington bureau chief for the McClatchy chain of newspapers, James Asher, said from his Twitter account that Clinton confidant Sid Blumenthal urged him to investigate Obama’s birthplace during the 2008 campaign. Blumenthal flatly denied the allegation in an e-mail to the Globe.

“This is false. Period,’’ Blumenthal wrote.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 16, 2016 10:48 PM
Comment #407544

Stephen, Didn’t I just say that in my last post. Clinton’s team flirted with the birther issue but Trump jumped on it. So by Democrats flirting with the issue they basicly started it.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at September 16, 2016 10:50 PM
Comment #407545

Obama’s publicist started the birther issue. It’s a non issue. At least we’re not talking about Hillbilly’s problems, yes?

Posted by: Weary Willie at September 16, 2016 10:54 PM
Comment #407546

Warped taking a quote from Hillary, “At this point what does it matter” The birther issue is forgotten. Why Hillary brought it up was a stupid idea.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at September 16, 2016 11:14 PM
Comment #407547

The birther issue is forgotten? Oh, I don’t think so.

Trump spent years spreading this lie. He owes an explanation for why he spread this terrible lie. He owes an apology.

Trump is not alone. According to a poll earlier this year, 65% of Trump supporters believe he was not born in this country, and another 59% believe he is not a Christian. These are the deplorables. There are a lot of them, they make up a substantial part of the GOP, and for the time being, they have taken over the party. They are the Alt-Right, the white supremacists and racists, the followers of Limbaugh and Hannity and others. They are Breitbart and Drudge and other even fringier outlets.

Posted by: phx8 at September 16, 2016 11:26 PM
Comment #407548
So by Democrats flirting with the issue they basicly started it.

Nope

“At this point what does it matter”
It matters because a whole basket of deplorable people don’t accept the fact that Obama is an American citizen. It is because of these people that Trump is the GOP nominee. Their beliefs are the foundation to his entire candidacy. Honest and decent Americans are extremely worried about the specter of electing a man to the Presidency who has done so much to fuel White Nationalism. Posted by: Warren Porter at September 16, 2016 11:31 PM
Comment #407549

phx8, NEWS FLASH, No one but people like you care anymore. In a few months Obama can go back to wherever. Your girl hasn’t anything to run on except to bring up stupid S**T.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at September 16, 2016 11:32 PM
Comment #407550
Why Hillary brought it up was a stupid idea.

The issue’s salience reemerged as a result of an interview Ben Carson did with Jake Tapper. This had nothing to do with Hillary.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 16, 2016 11:36 PM
Comment #407551

GEE Warped I just heard Trump say Obama was an American Citizen. Even though I don’t like either major party candidate I’d rather be one of those deplorable people then a IDIOT who would vote for a lying dirt bag like Hillary.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at September 16, 2016 11:36 PM
Comment #407553

KAP,
Hillary did not bring this up.

Part of the reason concerns about Birtherism came to the fore was the attempt by Trump to appeal to black voters. In polls he was receiving low single digits from black voters. He’s in the teens among Hispanics. It is very unlikely Trump can win unless he can pry free some minority votes.

First, he gave a speech about blacks to a white audience. This went over very poorly. He made a couple of other attempts, and his outreach to blacks completely failed. It looked more like an outreach to whites to justify a ‘law and order’ approach to the concerns of the black community.

Trump was asked questions about Birtherism and he kept avoiding the issue.

Meanwhile, Obama commands a 58% approval rating. In economic news, income took the biggest jump up since the 1960’s. The poverty rate took a huge drop.

But something snapped for some people today, when Trump made his brief declaration without any explanation, and then tried to blame Hillary. Some people in the media have had enough of Trump. They’re not going to take it anymore. They’re not going to contribute to the rise of the Alt-Right, the white supremacists, and the nativists.

Fact checkers rate Trump the second most frequent liar, surpassed only by Michele Bachmann. He might have passed her by now. Of all the contestants in this campaign season, both Democrats and Republicans, fact checkers rate Hillary Clinton as the most honest one of the bunch. The fact is, for a politician, Hillary Clinton is one of the ones least likely to lie, and most likely to tell the truth.

Posted by: phx8 at September 17, 2016 1:31 AM
Comment #407554

Wow let me get this straight.


Trump has just declared “I am not one of those morons who think Obama was born in Kenya” After years of telling us” I am a moron because I believe Obama was born in Kenya”. This seems to me to be a positive development in Trumps attempt to run the country. If he truly believes it and has recovered from his mental illness then I say good for him.

The sad part of all of this is the troubled minds of his followers. KAP tells us Hillary coerced Trump… oh wait… no… she just started the rumor. Well not her… but a liberal… or someone other than Trump…So Trump was foolish enough to continue believing the rumor for almost a decade… right? So of course it must be Hillary’s fault! Trump on the other hand is blameless a victim of a cruel joke… right?

Weary asks the all important question… who started this round of the foolish birther issue? Some reporter, not Trump. Why would any conservative hold Trump responsible for his words and deeds when we can blame it on the Clinton’s… right? Cause bringing up issues from the past is … well…what past… the world just started in 2008 when Obama and Clinton destroyed the economy… right?

Royal of course says “look over there, see the squirrel? Oh wait it is Obamacare!” Oh no… never mind… no wait Obamacare is the problem not Trump. Royal, Trump insinuated the Cruz family had some responsibility in the death of JFK how on earth can you give up so much integrity so easily?

My God guys, what is it with conservatives and cognitive dissonance?

Posted by: j2t2 at September 17, 2016 2:01 AM
Comment #407558

SD, Nice to see you back.

“A good conservative piece of law would reduce regulatory overhead, but by being elegant and shaping the policy with the real world in mind, do as much good if not more.”

Here is my proposal - Don’t change any government program for a moratorium period of 2 years, after one small change that does not decrease any funding of government. That change would be to give people all of their pay in their paycheck, and let them pay personally weekly or monthly to the government (local, State and Federal) the income taxes and employment taxes that are currently deducted.

That would be a true test of whether people see the value in the programs they are funding.

Posted by: Mike in Tampa at September 17, 2016 8:33 AM
Comment #407559

SD:

“In Florida, the Zika virus spreads, with the efforts to hinder that epidemic stymied by shortsighted decisions Rick Scott made.”

As far as I can tell, Rick Scott has been on top of this issue and the fight in Congress over Planned parenthood funding has delayed additional money. To what exactly are you referring when you say “shortsighted decisions Rick Scott made”?

Posted by: Mike in Tampa at September 17, 2016 8:40 AM
Comment #407560

phx8, I really don’t care who brought it up to me it is a dead issue. Obama will be gone in a few months.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at September 17, 2016 8:47 AM
Comment #407561
I really don’t care who brought it up to me it is a dead issue.

Weird. Back in Comment #407524 you expressed extreme interest in the mistaken belief that the racist rumors originated with HRC.

it is a dead issue

If the GOP had nominated Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio, it certainly would be a dead issue. However, the GOP nominee is Donald Trump, a man who’s ascendancy to the national political arena was forged on this issue. Not only does the racist rumor form a part of his core, but it once again highlights one of the most significant defects in his temperament. The guy simply cannot admit it when he has made a mistake. Instead, he shifts blame for his mistakes onto others. Simply put, it is an example of his cowardice. At a time and age with all the geopolitical strife revolving around Iran, North Korea, China, Russia and elsewhere, we do not need someone as feckless as Trump as our Commander-in-Chief.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 17, 2016 9:36 AM
Comment #407562
Trump was asked questions about Birtherism and he kept avoiding the issue.

I already said this. Why do you keep repeating me, phx8?


Posted by: Weary Willie at September 17, 2016 9:43 AM
Comment #407564

https://www.scribd.com/doc/4097983/Penn-Strategy-Memo-3-19-07

Posted by: Weary Willie at September 17, 2016 11:03 AM
Comment #407569

Here is a good explanation of just why Birtherism is so thoroughly racist:

“The entire birther crusade, but particularly Trump’s leading part in it, isn’t just about Barack Obama in particular. It’s an unfathomably cruel and dispiriting message to send to African Americans. It says to them, no matter how smart and hard-working you are, no matter how much you achieve, no matter how carefully you make yourself unthreatening to the white majority, no matter how deftly you manage to move through the most elite institutions in America and dazzle everyone with your talents, you will still not be accepted as a genuine citizen of this country. You could become president of the United States and they will literally demand to see your papers, and even when you give in to this vile demand they will still deny that you are American.”
Paul Waldman

He also gave a good summary of what Trump did yesterday in just 30 seconds:
“He told an obvious, indisputable lie about Hillary Clinton.
He falsely took credit for something he didn’t do.
He tried to evade responsibility for his successful efforts to foment and exploit racism.”

And remember, Trump has been pushing racism for the past five years, in dozens and dozes of tweets, in many television appearances, and in multiple interviews.

No sooner does he do that, but he promptly makes other outrageous statements, including one suggesting HRC’s Secret Service contingent should disarm so that we can “see what happens.” The lies come so fast and furious, it breaks the media. They ignore they lie stated only moments before, where Trump claimed Hillary would get rid of the 2nd amendment and take away everybody’s guns. There are so many lies, the media concentrates on the most recent and outrageous statement, and can’t even begin to correct the record, never mind address policy positions or anything meaningful.

We saw this to some extent in the GOP primaries. Now it is on the national stage. The Alt-Right is roaring. It is being mainstreamed right before our eyes.

Posted by: phx8 at September 17, 2016 1:42 PM
Comment #407571

Daugherty writes; “Royal Flush-
Tell me, what happens when you repeal Obamacare, and you have to deal with the millions of uninsured?”

and,

“The problem is, really, that the GOP has left itself with no options, no real way to back out of ridiculous positions.”

Here is Mr. Daugherty initially writing about good governance which recognizes when to pull the plug on programs that don’t work, or don’t work well and then shifting the blame for Obamacare failure on the GOP.

The Left, using bribes, coercion and threats, was able to pass Obamacare legislation despite most of the current problems being warned about. We were told we would love it once we could understand it.

Today, major insurers are pulling out of Obamacare because it is too costly and eventually could bankrupt them. Just before the November election new and much higher rates will be announced by insurers still offering Obamacare.

Millions of Americans have lost the health care coverage and the physician they had and liked before being forced out of both by Obamacare rules.

Mr. Daugherty suggests that since the camels nose is in the tent we should bring the whole camel in to make a non-working government subsidy work. This will entail additional trillions of dollars in wasteful spending and more huge, non-functioning bureaucracy. Perhaps another half trillion can be siphoned off Medicare as was done to seed this God-awful program known as Obamacare.

Solutions have been presented.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 17, 2016 2:00 PM
Comment #407572

It is funny to me and others who read all the Leftie/Socialist comments using the word “deplorable” with regard to every American who prefers Trump over Hillary.

It is rather like the “Black lives matter” nabobs.

Not being able to think for themselves, they follow their leader and repeat, parrot-like, words and phrases that sound good to their ears without engaging the space between the ears.

To become “UN-deplorable” all one needs to do is back the Democrats and Hillary. All sins will be forgiven once one endorses slightly-slick Hillary.

j2t2 becomes all excited and begins drooling and twitching in his belief that I changed the subject to Obamacare. I suggest j2t2 ask for help to put out the flames in his hair and read Daugherty’s original post again. To make it easy for j2t2, since we believe he has reading and comprehension challenges, I will quote from Daugherty…

“I would say that observing fiscal discipline doesn’t hurt the Democrats. There are times when it’s inappropriate to be austere, but I think if we can create new programs, or reshuffle resources to better effect, we’re doing well by Liberalism, even if we’re not conforming to the stereotype of what our position is supposed to be.”

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 17, 2016 2:17 PM
Comment #407574

After 250 days without a press conference, the media throws Hillbilly a softball, correction, an orange question;

How was your weekend?

phx8, America needs to know! I need to know! I am basing my entire decision on your answer.

How was your weekend?

Posted by: Weary Willie at September 17, 2016 2:51 PM
Comment #407575

Cut it out Weary…my gut is hurting from laughing.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 17, 2016 2:55 PM
Comment #407577

NO Warped,, Just said what I had read and heard from some of the MSM on the issue. Like I said Obama is gone in a few months and I don’t give a rats a$$ where hew was born.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at September 17, 2016 4:29 PM
Comment #407580

Two Democratics walk into a bar. The Republican ducks.

Posted by: Weary Willie at September 17, 2016 5:10 PM
Comment #407582

LOL…Weary is on a roll.

A Republican Senator stood the Senate floor and said…”Gentlemen, let me tax your memories.”

Ted Kennedy yelled out…”Why didn’t we Democrats think of that?”

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 17, 2016 5:17 PM
Comment #407585

KAP,
It is true that Obama will be gone in a few more months. Why does Birtherism matter?

It matters because it is at the heart of the Trump candidacy. That is what got him started. It is what earned him national attention. He promoted it and he stoked the racism and hatred of many people. The same hatred and bigotry keeps him going now, even if it is not necessarily directed at Obama.

What we learn is that the racism and hatred is not limited to Obama or blacks. It does not stop there. It did not end when Trump said Obama was a US citizen after all. The racism and hatred is also directed at other groups- Mexicans such as Judge Curiel, immigrants legal and illegal, and women. We will see more of it in the future, regardless of whether Trump wins or not.

That worries me. Like I said, Trump broke the media. They are unable to cope with someone like that. Trump said he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th Avenue and his supporters would still vote for him, and I believe he is right. It is not about policies. It is not about issues. Trump supporters start with hatred and bigotry, and their stands on policies and issues flows from that.

We just saw it today. Trump trotted out people who lost loved ones to illegal aliens due to murder and other crimes. The goal is simple: demonization. Trump seeks to demonize them.

Let’s just say Trump decided people named Tim were taking all our jobs and killing our loved ones. A person could find dozens of people over the past 20 years who have seen their loved ones murdered by people named Tim. There would be parole violators and all sorts of riff raff.

Does that mean people named Tim are more likely to commit crimes? Of course not. There is not a shred of evidence for that. There is also not a shred of evidence that illegal aliens are anymore likely to commit crimes than the background population. But Trump is demonizing them.

Posted by: Phx8 at September 17, 2016 6:08 PM
Comment #407588

phx8 wrote; ” Trump supporters start with hatred and bigotry, and their stands on policies and issues flows from that.”

Really? Calling for our nation’s laws to be enforced is hatred and bigotry?

Hmmm…does that make all the legislators who passed the legislation and the presidents who signed it into law also haters and bigots?

Does that make phx8 and his Pals law-breaking anti-citizens?

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 17, 2016 6:22 PM
Comment #407589

phx8 writes; “Trump trotted out people who lost loved ones to illegal aliens due to murder and other crimes. The goal is simple: demonization. Trump seeks to demonize them.”

Hmmm…if Trump “trots” out black people from Chicago and other places who lost loved ones due to uncontrolled black violence will the goal be to “demonize them” as well?

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 17, 2016 6:25 PM
Comment #407592

Birtherism only matters to liberal/progressives like you phx8 because people like you are the ones who bring it up as the first sentence in S.D.’s post says. I don’t care where Obama was born because as your girl Hildabeast said “What does it matter now” he only has a few more months in office.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at September 17, 2016 7:08 PM
Comment #407594
It matters because it is at the heart of the Trump candidacy. That is what got him started. It is what earned him national attention. He promoted it and he stoked the racism and hatred of many people.

This is so wrong it earns phx8:

The phx8 BullShit Award Of The Minute!

This statement completely ignores Trump’s achievements throughout his life, the many achievements that gave him this opportunity to run for this honor, the lifetime of work, a lifetime of success, a success that exposes him to phx8’s phobias.

When are you guys going to get real?

What we learn is that..

I really don’t learn anything from you, phx8. You’ve been wrong more than you’ve been right. You spout your crap in all three columns and think we’re stupid when we don’t fall in line or pat you on the back.

Why do you think you’re going to win the day by insulting and denigrating your opposition? It just shows your side is not interested in debate. You’re interested in domination.

Posted by: Weary Willie at September 17, 2016 7:46 PM
Comment #407596

phx8,

I finally figured out why you’re so bitter. I know why your side is so hostile and vicious.

Posted by: Weary Willie at September 17, 2016 9:42 PM
Comment #407600

Watchblog conservatives try to stick their fingers into their ears and yell lalalala, but it doesn’t change reality:

Donald Trump is a liar. His numerous lies outnumber any of Clinton’s fibs many times over. We simply cannot trust anything that he says.

This is why so many conservatives’ attempts to spin Trump’s vile statements ring hollow. You tell us that Trump is just worried about law and order or some other sorry excuse. Most Americans recognize that as bullshit. They trust their own eyes and ears far more than the propagandists. For half a decade, Americans have observed this man as he has preyed upon the insecurities of White Americans uncomfortable with the fact that America’s future is more diverse, both religiously and racially. They watched Trump humiliate a sitting American President time after the time with unsubstantiated allegations that the President had defrauded the American people regarding a fact so basic as his birthplace. The American people are smart enough to recognize a con when they see one and Trump’s candidacy is as big as they can come.

No one can honestly claim that Trump’s half decade interest in Barack Obama’s birth was merely a function of his interest in making sure laws were being followed. If it were, he would have shown similar interest in the birth certificates of Obama’s 42 predecessors, none of which are publicly available. The same can be said for Barack Obama’s college records and passport records. Only as a result of a leak has anyone glanced at the documents of any previous President while he was still in office. Why did Trump demand Obama play by rules that he doesn’t follow himself?
Holding a Black man to a different standard than that to the standard one wishes to apply to White men is racist. There’s no other way to describe it.

This is why Patriotic Americans will turn out to vote in droves come November. They want their next President to be someone who respects American values of liberty, pluralism and diversity. These are ideals that Donald Trump clearly does not have even a cursory understanding. His cowardice in the face of informed criticism foreshadows the feckless “leader” he would be, should he win the election.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 18, 2016 12:30 AM
Comment #407601

Warped, The last paragraph in your post^^^ says it all except you left out Hillary Clinton. We have S**T for choices this election cycle and if this is the best our major parties can put up, this country is in DEEP S**T.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at September 18, 2016 8:59 AM
Comment #407602

KAP,

Believe it or not, the Libertarian Party has nominated a fine and honorable pair of gentlemen to be the next President and Vice President. Both of them were successful governors and both of them demonstrate a keen awareness of the most fundamental attributes that make America the liberal society it is today.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 18, 2016 10:56 AM
Comment #407603

Some conservatives on this blog still have not learned the difference between telling a joke and being a joke. This is evidenced by their support of the republican candidate for president, perhaps the biggest joke ever perpetrated on the voting public in our history.

Posted by: Speak4all at September 18, 2016 11:19 AM
Comment #407604

“The world we confront is too perilous and too complex to have as president a man who believes he, and he alone, has all the answers and has no need to listen to anyone … At least on national security, I believe Mr. Trump is beyond repair. He is stubbornly uninformed about the world and how to lead our country and government, and temperamentally unsuited to lead our men and women in uniform. He is unqualified and unfit to be commander-in-chief.”
Robert Gates

Gates is a Republican who has served under six presidents, both Democrats and Republicans. In terms of foreign policy he is one of the most knowledgeable and experienced people alive, and his competence has been rewarded by both signs, again and again, over the years.

Posted by: phx8 at September 18, 2016 11:37 AM
Comment #407605

WW,
As for Trump’s business success…
The first red flag is his tax returns.

The second red flag is his bankruptcies. No American bank will loan him money. He has left a trail of people he failed to pay and a trail of lawsuits. His untrustworthiness is well known.

Michael Bloomberg is a successful NY businessman and a Republican with a net worth much greater than Trump. He says this about him: “Throughout his career, Trump has left behind a well-documented record of bankruptcies, thousands of lawsuits, angry shareholders and contractors who feel cheated, and disillusioned customers who feel ripped off.”

Trump’s fraud trial for Trump University starts 11/28.

The IRS fined Trump for calling a campaign donation a charitable donation. Florida Attorney General personally called Trump, informed him of the Trump University lawsuit in her state, and asked for a donation. Later, she dropped the lawsuit against Trump. Four days later he gave her campaign $25,000. Trump denied ever speaking to her, but she confirmed it; not only that, there are pictures of them together, and Trump threw a party and fund raising event for her at his Florida estate.

These are facts, well documented facts.

Posted by: phx8 at September 18, 2016 12:54 PM
Comment #407606

Post the links, phx8.

As a courtesy.

Posted by: Weary Willie at September 18, 2016 1:18 PM
Comment #407607

Warped I’m leaning that way.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at September 18, 2016 1:59 PM
Comment #407608

http://fortune.com/2016/08/05/5-things-you-need-to-know-about-donald-trumps-tax-returns/
Trump’s charitable donations remain a major question mark. One reporter has looked a over 200 of the charities Trump would be most likely to support, and he has found only one donation for @ $10,000.

Re Bloomberg:
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/27/michael-bloomberg-eviscerates-donald-trump-calls-him-risky-reckless.html

Re the IRS fine for calling the $25,000 Bondi campaign donation a case of charitable giving:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-donald-trump-charity-check-florida-pam-bondi-20160915-story.html

Posted by: phx8 at September 18, 2016 2:04 PM
Comment #407609

Mike in Tampa-
You would have an enforcement nightmare, not to mention a bureaucratic nightmare for the average taxpayer. Additionally, while it might sound good to you to freeze changes in government programs, this creates the exact opposite effect of what’s desired. If a program isn’t doing well, you can’t cut it. If a program is doing well, you can’t add to it. If you need a change to deal with a real world crisis, you’re up you-know-what creek without a paddle.

The real world is too complicated for axiomatic logic to always work.

As for short sighted decisions? How about reducing the mosquito control budget five years ago? Now he wants the Federal Government to pick up the slack. And who is it who INSISTS on putting the completely irrelevant issue of Planned Parenthood into a bill concerning a public health issue? They’re not stupid. They know Democrats can’t pass that bill. Why mess around with that?

And this isn’t the first time that a Republican Governor has cut spending at the state level on an important issue, had some disaster occur, and then go to the Federal government begging and blackmailing for money. It’s a regular occurrence. It demonstrates, though a point I made clearly in my entry above.

That is, that Republicans might be checking off the right boxes for ideologues, but they’re failing utterly to manage policy in a way that is consistent enough with reality to do the image of the ideology any favors.

I mean, many of the times that Republicans have gone and cut taxes, these mysterious, destructive holes in the budget have cratered them, and they’ve scrambled around, cutting services, undermining public education, and generally doing the people of their states no favors. The fiascos in Louisiana and Kansas are good examples. I don’t think Laffer Curves do anything in reality more than give a pretext to cut taxes for the rich. They aren’t very predictive, if you look at the economies of the state, of any recoveries or economic booms.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 18, 2016 2:05 PM
Comment #407610

Bloomberg on Trump:
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/27/michael-bloomberg-eviscerates-donald-trump-calls-him-risky-reckless.html

Re the IRS fine for calling the $25,000 Bondi campaign donation a case of charitable giving:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-donald-trump-charity-check-florida-pam-bondi-20160915-story.html

Posted by: phx8 at September 18, 2016 2:34 PM
Comment #407612
It is funny to me and others who read all the Leftie/Socialist comments using the word “deplorable” with regard to every American who prefers Trump over Hillary.

Royal when your logic is fueled with absolutes it is a good indication your logic is faulty. But hey it a diversion from Trump and his denial of the phony Birtherisnm conspiracy.

j2t2 becomes all excited and begins drooling and twitching in his belief that I changed the subject to Obamacare.

Well truthfully, Royal I only drool and twitch like that during college football season and my team is getting thrashed after i took them and the spread.


I suggest j2t2 ask for help to put out the flames in his hair and read Daugherty’s original post again. To make it easy for j2t2, since we believe he has reading and comprehension challenges, I will quote from Daugherty…

Don’t bother Royal the point is your repeated misinformation on Obamacare. You claim “We read nearly weekly of major health insurers pulling out of Obamacare due to huge losses.” which as we can see from this link isn’t true at all.

You claim “The program is a failure not because I think so, but the proof of what the insurance companies themselves are doing” but once again all that insurance companies prove is they will go to any length to coerce the government into submission.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 18, 2016 2:43 PM
Comment #407613

Royal Flush-
You seem to have forgotten what your people did to pass the Medicare drug benefit.

You’re wrong, dead wrong about coverage. Millions more have it. That’s flat fact. What’s your problem with flat fact? Yes, some Insurers are pulling out of individual markets. That might become a problem, but at least we gave your market solution a try. And don’t lie to me, or lie to anybody else: it was your market solution. There were no meaningful differences between the proposal your people countered HillaryCare with, the proposal that was instituted under Mitt Romney, the proposal that the Heritage Foundation promoted, and what got passed.

Is the market just not good enough for you? Didn’t think so. Republicans no longer stand for anything consistent these days. They ask, each day, what does Obama or the Democrats favor. That, every day, is what they oppose. If he happens to reach across the aisle, triangulate? Then that day, you oppose it. You no longer cast your own shadow, you are the shadow of the Democratic Party.

As for what was “siphoned off?”

You mean the no-strings-attached subsidies of the Medicare Advantage program, where we essentially paid companies for the privilege of administering additional Medicare Benefits that could have been more cheaply handled by the system already in place? Or are you talking about the incredible overcharges that your Congress wrote into the Medicare Drug Benefit law, barring the Federal government from doing with prescription drug prices what many private companies, and some federal agencies already do: bargain down the price. It is a flat fact that we pay too much for drugs that are cheaper in other countries.

Yeah, so we did what people like you always ask us to do, which is reduce waste, corruption, and porkbarrel spending. But of course, that bought us no credit from you, or others like you.

As far as Deplorables go? It’s not those who prefer Trump. You make that mistake either because you’re ignorant of the full comment Hillary Clinton made, where she acknowledged that about half the supporters were good, honest people, or because you’re not making a mistake, you’re being dishonest again, or worse, you’re trying to gain sympathy for those who really do belong in the Deplorables category, the White Supremacists, the Men’s Rights Rape fans like Roosh V, or that jackass Milo.

There are plenty of people that Trump seems to have a problem with alienating. Mike Pence should have said, “yes, David Duke is a Deplorable man, and we don’t need his support, or the support of those like him.” The fact that he’s an out and out anti-Semite should make it easy. But you know what? That’s probably not likely to happen as long as you have the guy who turned Breitbart into the flagship enterprise of the Alt Right movement running his campaign!

Oh, by the way, I don’t think j2t2s going to go running away from me because I urged fiscal discipline. For one thing, Democrats aren’t utterly opposed to it. In fact, we’re better at it than the Republicans, who expect the magic market fairies to pay back the money lost to revenues through tax cuts. For another, I’ve been doing it for years. Some of my first posts concerned the issue.

Weary Willie-
There’s a reason that you don’t have many widely known and well regarded Right Wing Comments. They’re too busy taking crap seriously that they should find laughable, and too busy finding funny what the rest of us are appalled by.

You can have all the press conferences you want, that’s not transparency. Do yourself a favor, and comb through the reports surrounding the Trump Campaign. The fact he’s always taking things to Trump properties, and charging the GOP for it… plastering his name on other people’s donations, and then using the money to do things like funnel money to Citizens United… the fact that banks in the US won’t lend to him…the wide array of investments he’s got out there in other countries…

I could go on, but the point is simple: the gasbag is constantly deflating in your direction, but he’s not telling you anywhere close to the truth about his dealings. Why else does he refuse to show his tax returns? Yes, it might hurt him politically, but if that’s true, well, that’s the point. Trump only seems to say what he says when it benefits him somehow. He only copped to Obama being an American after somebody called him on his BS, and he had no choice.

So, you go on thinking we’re the idiots, while you continue to build up your next Bush, your next bad leader who got where he got because his followers and his staff were able to BS themselves and other Americans into it.

We’re going to elect somebody who, after years of vetting, doesn’t have thousands of lawsuits, four marriages, four bankruptcies, hundreds of failed business ventures, hundreds of foreign business entanglements and no plausible deniability for years of scumbag behavior on his record. You may think the Clintons are no better, or worse, but the evidence against your friend is overwhelming.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 18, 2016 3:19 PM
Comment #407614

phx8 launches into a Trump beat down and when he’s asked for links he gives me a political speech from Bloomberg that shows me phx8 copied his entire comment from him. I should ask Bloomberg for links instead of phx8, eh?

Still waiting for the bribery trial, or is it guilty until proven innocent? Let’s apply the same scrutiny to Hillbilly’s money tree.

Court records show the judge in the case canceled the scheduled foreclosure sale on Tuesday after a hearing, but the broader legal fight over the bill continues.
“Let’s say that they do a job that’s not good, or a job that they didn’t finish, or a job that was way late. I’ll deduct from their contract, absolutely,” Trump said. “That’s what the country should be doing.”
Posted by: Weary Willie at September 18, 2016 3:24 PM
Comment #407615

WW,
The Bloomberg quote was marked with quotation marks. I believe WB limits the number of links for one comment. In any case, I am citing events that have been widely reported by mainstream news outlets.

“Still waiting for the bribery trial, or is it guilty until proven innocent?”

His trial starts November 28th. There will be one or two other preliminary hearings shortly after the election. Trump’s deposition is online. Motions to dismiss or delay have been denied, so this is not a frivolous suit. It will go forward.

Trump has repeatedly threatened to sue various people reporting on Trump University, including a reporter and a witness. The suit against the witness was dismissed as frivolous, and Trump was forced to pay $800,000.

“But when Tarla Makaeff filed a class action in April 2010, Trump filed a $1 million counterclaim against her, for defamation. (Makaeff eventually succeeded in having the counterclaim dismissed under a California law designed to deter frivolous suits filed by well-heeled defendants in an effort to chill speech on issues of public interest. Last April, U.S. District Judge Gonzalo Curiel ordered Trump to pay Makaeff’s lawyers almost $800,000 in fees and costs.)”
http://fortune.com/2016/03/08/trump-university-financial-elder-abuse-charges/

This is the judge Trump said was unfair because the judge was Mexican. Speaker Ryan called Trump’s comment “a textbook definition of a racist comment.”

Posted by: phx8 at September 18, 2016 4:49 PM
Comment #407616

Warren wrote; “You tell us that Trump is just worried about law and order or some other sorry excuse.”

It appears that you apply this statement to Trump and Obama’s birthplace.

The times that I have asked liberals to promote “law and order” have been related to illegal immigration.

Warren wrote; “Holding a Black man to a different standard than that to the standard one wishes to apply to White men is racist.”

I have never had an explanation of why Obama is a “Black Man” when he is half white. My dictionary describes Obama’s mixed race as “Mulatto”. Why is that term not being used as it is certainly most appropriate. Is it a racist attempt to use “black” as a vote getter? Vote for Obama as the “first black man” to be president???

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 18, 2016 5:32 PM
Comment #407618

I support treating people wanting to immigrate no differently than how Europeans were treated 100 years ago when they wanted to enter this country. If this isn’t a promotion of law & order, I don’t know what is.

As for your splitting hairs regarding Obama’s race, give me a break. There is a time and place to argue semantics. This isn’t it.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 18, 2016 7:27 PM
Comment #407619

OK, Warren is in the column against law and order regarding immigration. He favors using the rules of another time and promotes lawbreaking.

And, Warren can’t admit that Obama is not a Black man or White man but rather, a Mulatto.

So sad that truth is so tough for my Leftie Pals.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 18, 2016 7:35 PM
Comment #407620

What difference, at this point, does it make?

Obama is itching to get out of the White House. His wife thinks it a terrible place. Who cares what color he is? He’s not even in the race.

The birther issue miraculously reared it’s ugly head when Hillbilly had her pearl clutching experience. It’s a distraction. Why spend this much time on it? Hillbilly has her sympathy vote wrapped up now.

I guess I’m the only one in Trump’s corner here. The post was about Trump’s behavior. I don’t sleep with the guy so I’m not going to pretend I know everything about him. I don’t think you guys know as much about him as you think you do, either.

This guy turned one million dollars into nine billion! He wasn’t handed nine billion dollar!

He’s got results where no one else has when it comes to Obama releasing his birth certificate. I don’t think it was a coincidence Obama released it when Trump wouldn’t let it go.

He’s done business all over the world with different types of governments. He didn’t start any wars doing it. He will look at government in this country differently, but how can all of you say it will be a bad thing? It’s never been done before. How can you possibly predict he will fail?

Seriously folks, unless you’re employed by the federal government is some ABC dept., I don’t see how the federal government affects you personally. It doesn’t affect me at all other than to take money from me every week. Except for your pittance every month, how does the federal government control your lives?

How would a Trump Presidency affect you personally?

Posted by: Weary Willie at September 18, 2016 8:05 PM
Comment #407621

“He’s done business all over the world with different types of governments.”

Okay, so what? Perhaps he might not be quite so hypocritical about other “global companies”.

https://www.aei.org/publication/donald-trumps-hypocrisy-on-trade-he-outsources-and-invests-globally-but-doesnt-want-ford-to-do-the-same/

Otherwise it’s just the same ‘ol isolationist hyperbole.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks` at September 18, 2016 8:42 PM
Comment #407622

Weren’t you guys always complaining about how corporations have all their money offshore? Do you think Donald Trump may be able to get that money back here?

Posted by: Weary Willie at September 18, 2016 9:43 PM
Comment #407626

Willie,

D+ for effort, F for reading comprehension.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at September 19, 2016 7:37 AM
Comment #407627

The first thing Trump said he was going to do is renegotiate Nafta. Do you think he’s going to exempt Trump Enterprises from any agreement he makes?

Posted by: Weary Willie at September 19, 2016 9:35 AM
Comment #407628
How would a Trump Presidency affect you personally?

Trump’s feckless leadership is going to start a war and I may need to fight in it. The guy’s foreign policy is completely bonkers. Just look at how emboldened North Korea has been in the past 12 months, testing nuclear devices and ballistic missiles left and right. Kim Jong Un understands how precarious his position is when his people are increasing aware of how prosperous South Korea and China are becoming. I wouldn’t put it past him to make a move on South Korea based upon the gamble that Trump may not come to the ROK’s defense. The same can be said for a possible Russian intrusion into the Baltic States. Or the inevitable rude gesture displayed at American servicemen by Iranian troops. By not making America’s commitment to our treaty partners clear and by overreacting to the most minor of transgressions, Trump risks killing us all.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 19, 2016 10:40 AM
Comment #407629
Warren is in the column against law and order regarding immigration. He favors using the rules of another time and promotes lawbreaking.

Since when is supporting a change in the law tantamount to opposing law and order? The current status quo whereby millions of people enter without proper documents is a serious threat to our society and I oppose it. And it’s not just be, a majority of Americans think likewise.

So how can the GOP justify keeping the law unchanged, creating a huge pool of illegal immigrants and still claim the mantle of law & order? To me, it seems like they despise America’s legacy of immigration and prefer imposing their own diktats contrary to the democratic ideals expressed in the Constitution.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 19, 2016 10:49 AM
Comment #407630

“Since when is supporting a change in the law tantamount to opposing law and order?”

When the change one supports is nothing more than accommodating those who are breaking the law that is already in place.

Posted by: kctim at September 19, 2016 11:06 AM
Comment #407631

kctim,

Any law that reduces the size of government is tantamount to accommodation for those who are breaking the law that is already in place.

Are people who wish to decrease the size of the regulatory state opponents of law and order?

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 19, 2016 11:59 AM
Comment #407632

Warren, reducing the size of government has absolutely nothing to do with the reason why people are trying to by-pass or repeal our immigration laws.

Their desire is not to decrease the size of the regulatory state in any way, it is to increase the size of those dependent on it, and when they seek to do that by changing laws to benefit non-citizens over actual citizens, yes they are opponents of law and order.

Posted by: kctime at September 19, 2016 12:25 PM
Comment #407633
T reducing the size of government has absolutely nothing to do with the reason why people are trying to by-pass or repeal our immigration laws

Actually it has everything to do with the pro-immigration reform movement. We don’t want burdensome government imposing strict restrictions on who can and cannot immigrate here.

Their desire is not to decrease the size of the regulatory state in any way, it is to increase the size of those dependent on it,
What a crock. Nobody wants to increase the number of people dependent on government. Many of these immigrants come here seeking employment and they do a good job at supplying cheap labor for many industries. Of course, as the cogs of the American Dream turn, successive generations of their progeny rise up through the ranks of society and some end up starting businesses of their own. Really, it is no different than when Europeans came here a hundred years ago. Overall immigration has been a net economic benefit throughout American history.
changing laws to benefit non-citizens over actual citizens, yes they are opponents of law and order.
What tangible benefits do non-citizens posses that native born citizens cannot attain under commonly proposed immigration reforms? Posted by: Warren Porter at September 19, 2016 1:42 PM
Comment #407634

Warren, this “pro-immigration reform movement” you speak of cares not one wit about “burdensome government” and using it to place “strict restrictions” on average Americans. In fact, they encourage it.
What you don’t want is “burdensome government” that impedes your end goals, the he11 with everybody else’s.

“Nobody wants to increase the number of people dependent on government.”

Spare us the talking-points. Anybody with any honesty knows dang well that this whole thing is about nothing more than how those descendants will vote in the future.

“What tangible benefits do non-citizens posses that native born citizens cannot attain under commonly proposed immigration reforms?”

That’s not the question people want answered. What they want to know is why are non-citizens are entitled to the same benefits as American citizens? Why must Americans accept less so that our government can pander to non-citizens?

“Really, it is no different than when Europeans came here a hundred years ago.”

There wasn’t 320+ million people here a hundred years ago, and more than half of the population wasn’t dependent on government back then either.

“Overall immigration has been a net economic benefit throughout American history.”

The problem isn’t immigration, it’s illegal immigration and the total disregard for controlled immigration.

Posted by: kctim at September 19, 2016 2:24 PM
Comment #407635

“The current status quo whereby millions of people enter without proper documents is a serious threat to our society and I oppose it.”

Thanks for an unqualified response Warren.

Warren also wrote; “We don’t want burdensome government imposing strict restrictions on who can and cannot immigrate here.”

WOW…What a banner day. Warren has actually agreed that government is “burdensome”. He of course is writing about immigration, however; that word applies to many areas of our national government.

Warren again…”Many of these immigrants come here seeking employment and they do a good job at supplying cheap labor for many industries.”

Interesting comment Warren. Is it not true that the Left is trying to increase the minimum wage? Is it really “cheap labor” at $15 or even $20 per hour?

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 19, 2016 2:30 PM
Comment #407636

On a lighter note…here’s the new release by

THE GATLIN BROTHERS.

“STAND UP AND SAY SO”

http://conservativetribune.com/bands-anti-hillary-song-viral/

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 19, 2016 2:42 PM
Comment #407637

Hey…Weary and Tim, have you noticed that the more Hillary declines in the polls the less “chatty” our Leftie Pals become?

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 19, 2016 5:01 PM
Comment #407638

Royal Flush, that’s because Hillbilly isn’t saying anything and they have nothing to cut and paste.

Posted by: Weary Willie at September 19, 2016 7:05 PM
Comment #407639

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-hillary-clinton-lost_us_57dc4bece4b04a1497b491b6

Huffing and Puffington Post just wrote Hillbilly’s political obituary!

Posted by: Weary Willie at September 19, 2016 8:17 PM
Comment #407645
Warren has actually agreed that government is “burdensome”.

Where have you been all these years? I’ve been complaining about burdensome government for years. Regulating where I can pee, who I can marry and whether a woman can have abortion. Burdensome regulations abound and I have been railing against them for quite some time.

Interesting comment Warren. Is it not true that the Left is trying to increase the minimum wage? Is it really “cheap labor” at $15 or even $20 per hour?

I don’t support efforts to raise minimum wage that high. As long as both parties are able to fully consent and negotiate, I’m fine doing away with the minimum wage. Unfortunately, the pangs of hunger often put the worker in a situation of duress making such free negotiation impossible, but that is a debate for another day.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 8:45 AM
Comment #407646

Royal, a person can only defend blatant dishonesty and outright hypocrisy for so long. Which is why we are now seeing them ramping up their outrageous personal attacks, lies and divisive hatred aimed at their fellow Americans who dare disagree with them.

The sexist BS hasn’t really worked out for them the way the racist BS did with Obama. Stooping so low to use the racist BS to try and scare people to support Hillary hasn’t quite worked out the way they wanted either. LOL!

Not to fear though my friend, it’s almost October and they are going to go nuts. They are going to display hatred like we have never seen before. Their anti-American unconstitutional rallies are going to start popping up, as will their little racist terror groups like BLM.

KYPD

Posted by: kctim at September 20, 2016 8:54 AM
Comment #407647

kctim,

Is it blatantly dishonest to characterize the alt-right and their ilk as racist?

Is it hypocritical to demand that all Americans be treated equally regardless of the color of their skin or the faith of their creed?

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 9:06 AM
Comment #407648

Warren,

It is blatantly dishonest to associate disagreement with leftist policy as racism, sexism, white supremacy etc…, for political gain.
It is blatantly dishonest to associate the vast majority with a very small minority, for political gain.

It is hypocritical to demand that all Americans be treated equally, while also demanding burdensome government regulations and laws that treat them differently.

Posted by: kctim at September 20, 2016 9:33 AM
Comment #407649

Speaking of BLM, it appears the life of yet another black man didn’t matter to a white cop. Terrance Crutcher died as he had is hands over his head beside his stalled SUV. Apart from the fact that his disabled vehicle was blocking traffic, there are no indications that Mr. Crutcher was alleged to have committed any crime, but perhaps we will learn something soon. In audio from an overhead chopper, we hear one officer allege that Mr. Crutcher “looks like a bad dude … might be on something” despite no apparent evidence that Crutcher was anything other than a sober law-abiding citizen.

Obviously, it will take time for a full investigation to figure out the facts and initial responsibility for that investigation falls on the shoulder’s of the local authorities in Tulsa, OK. However, the videos that have been released do not look exculpatory to me. I appears, Betty Shelby will have a tough time convincing most people that the shooting was justified.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 9:54 AM
Comment #407652
It is blatantly dishonest to associate disagreement with leftist policy as racism, sexism, white supremacy etc…, for political gain.

But we aren’t talking about the expression of mere disagreement with leftist policy. Gary Johnson opposes all sorts of big government programs but nobody ever calls him a racist/sexist/bigot. The alt-right gets labeled racist because it is racist.

It is blatantly dishonest to associate the vast majority with a very small minority, for political gain.

I wouldn’t call it a very small minority. Significant polling evidence indicates that at least 30% to 50% of Trump’s supporters have deplorable beliefs that indicate prejudice against nonwhites, women, homosexuals or non-Christians.

burdensome government regulations and laws that treat them differently.
Apart from affirmative action, what government laws and regulations treat Americans differently on the basis of race, sex, orientation, creed, etc? Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 10:24 AM
Comment #407653

So, “it will take time for a full investigation to figure out the facts,” but yet you still immediately jump to the conclusion that a white cop intentionally killed a man simply because of the color of his skin?
FFS.

Posted by: kctim at September 20, 2016 11:25 AM
Comment #407654
a person can only defend blatant dishonesty and outright hypocrisy for so long.

One would think kctim, but with conservatives there seems to be no end to what they will defend. Do you realize they are defending Trump while calling Clinton a liar! The audacity, the narcissism involved in supporting Trump when his entire campaign has been nothing but blatant dishonesty and hypocrisy is laughable were it not so sad.

Which is why we are now seeing them ramping up their outrageous personal attacks, lies and divisive hatred aimed at their fellow Americans who dare disagree with them.

The Donald has received free publicity for months (years if you count his birtherism claims) now simply by using ” personal attacks, lies and divisive hatred aimed at their fellow Americans who dare disagree” with him. Yet conservatives seem to gloss over this fact. Let me help you, remember the outrageous claim against Khizr Khan?

The problem with conservatives stems from the dumbing down of America they have subjected us to the past 3 decades. They cannot tell the difference between puffery and truth. When confronted with a master manipulator like Trump the weak mind cannot discern puffery from truth, that is why so many of you guys flock to Trump, IMHO. Good people falling victim to a man who accused another repub potential’s family of being involved in the Kennedy assassination. Yet Trump won the nomination after doing this!!! Lets not forget when he told us he used his financial resources to buy most of the repub politicians running for president in the primaries.

Good God man are you guys completely clueless?


Hey…Weary and Tim, have you noticed that the more Hillary declines in the polls the less “chatty” our Leftie Pals become?

First of all Royal have you noticed how the chat is all foolish issues not substantive issues lately? Correlation and causality Royal, think about it.

Secondly if you look back I have always said the vote will be close as I anticipated you guys corrupting your integrity and voting for Trump. I also assumed you guys would have shaved 2 to 3 points off the number of voters with all the voter suppression laws you have been working so hard on the past 5 years.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 20, 2016 11:43 AM
Comment #407655
So, “it will take time for a full investigation to figure out the facts,” but yet you still immediately jump to the conclusion that a white cop intentionally killed a man simply because of the color of his skin?

I think it is perfectly valid to have an initial impression of what happened, but to understand that the conclusion can change once the investigation does its job. Obviously, these initial impressions should never have any role in a formal criminal prosecution, but they do help one observe events in real time as they unfold.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 12:39 PM
Comment #407656

J2,
It is documented fact that Hillary is a liar and a hypocrite. Not over silly things like spinning numbers or being mean to people putting themselves in the political spotlight, but serious things like total disregard for rule and law.

Unsurprisingly, you defend the lefts blatant dishonesty and hypocrisy by blaming somebody else, and then yammering about “free publicity,” whatever the f*&% that has to do with anything.

And seriously man, Trumps not even in the same league as Clinton when it comes to this crap, and his supporters (you know, your fellow Americans who’s intelligence you would rather insult rather than face facts) can’t hold a candle to the hateful anti-American rhetoric exhibited by the Hillary sheep.

Posted by: kctim at September 20, 2016 1:33 PM
Comment #407657

Warren,
This stuff has gone from a fact based initial impression of what happened, to a manufactured dishonest narrative of what people desire to have happened.

The ‘initial impression’ we ALL should have is why was an unarmed American citizen with his hands in the air, shot by police. NOT white cop hunts down and kills innocent black man, again.

Posted by: kctim at September 20, 2016 1:51 PM
Comment #407658
Not over silly things like spinning numbers or being mean to people putting themselves in the political spotlight

According to my values, lying about the numbers in one’s policy or using false pretenses to be mean to people like that is far worse than forgetting about the classification of a few dozen emails (who’s classifications were unmarked). The former is an example of malice whereas the latter is merely a matter of ignorance. Neither is a trait I want in my next President (which is why I’m supporting Gary Johnson), but I’d never equate the two.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 1:55 PM
Comment #407659
Warren, This stuff has gone from a fact based initial impression of what happened, to a manufactured dishonest narrative of what people desire to have happened.

The ‘initial impression’ we ALL should have is why was an unarmed American citizen with his hands in the air, shot by police. NOT white cop hunts down and kills innocent black man, again.

I agree that is the initial impression that I wish people were having. The problem is that people do not judge this in isolation. Instead, they place it within the context of previous incidents whereby unarmed black men (or lawfully armed black men) have been shot and killed by police. While the black men have sometimes been less than fully cooperative with law enforcement, in the opinion of many Americans, very few of these men actually posed a threat to the police.

Still, I yearn for the day when people do not apply the racial lens to events like this. However, in order to get there it will take a lot of work from both the Black community as well as law enforcement. There’s a lot of distrust of police among Blacks and that’s not going to end until law enforcement takes proactive steps to regain the confidence of the people they serve. It’s going to take more training, more transparency and most importantly, a change in attitude and culture. However, the first step is to acknowledge the problem instead of stonewalling it like some of the right are trying to do.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 2:04 PM
Comment #407660

kctim, the only documentation you have is from extremist groups who have falsely accused Clinton of so much with so little that you actually believe this tripe! Not one charge, my friend, yet you make these claims of major violations of rule and law, yet not one charge. All smoke no fire for years yet you believe it!! The repubs have been after here in Congress for years yet all they do is make stuff up and claim it to be true. How many times do you fall for it without thinking they are playing you? If it were Obama would you give him the same leeway?

Is it insulting to just lay out the truth a bit for you guys? It isn’t meant to be insulting, but rather enlightening in a politically incorrect way that conservatives say they like. I would offer you insult yourself more than I insult you when you fall for this propaganda time and time again.

I mean despite being the best of the bunch, Trump is all puffery no substance. He is the kind of guy that can talk you guys into doing the wrong thing. Certainly you can understand why I worry about that, my God I have brought up the similarities between conservatives of today and the people of Germany in the ‘20’s and ‘30’s for years now. With the resurgence of the “alt right” and a charismatic leader who can sell you guys on anything…. well think about it.

Not in the same league!!! Wow linking the Cruz family to the Kennedy assassination is in a league of it’s own. I am sorry to see you choose to consider yourself more American than the rest of us as this kind of nationalism is just another example of where this is leading IMHO kctim. But I am not insulting your intelligence or the intelligence of most of the well meaning and decent people who seem to be fallen victim to the puffery.

I call to question your critical thinking skills and reasoning ability. Because you make statements like “And seriously man, Trumps not even in the same league as Clinton when it comes to this crap” when in fact he and the conservative propaganda machine have you fooled.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 20, 2016 2:12 PM
Comment #407661

Warren writes; “Burdensome regulations abound and I have been railing against them for quite some time.”

You managed to mention three…all social. How about regulations that kill business, deny owners use of their own land, demand compliance or take away government money and many others?

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 20, 2016 2:23 PM
Comment #407662

I also assumed you guys would have shaved 2 to 3 points off the number of voters with all the voter suppression laws you have been working so hard on the past 5 years.
Posted by: j2t2 at September 20, 2016 11:43 AM

And…don’t forget all the people with felony records that would certainly vote for any Left wing dingbat if allowed.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 20, 2016 2:36 PM
Comment #407663

Warren,
Every politician and partisan is guilty of spinning numbers and speaking ill of their opponents, in order to support their position. It sucks, but that is how the game is played and both sides are guilty.

If you have a security clearance, you don’t ‘forget’ how to handle it properly. You don’t ‘forget’ how many phones you carry and send/receive classified information on. You don’t set up your own non secure personal server and ‘forget’ that you sent and received classified information on it.

“Instead, they place it within the context of previous incidents whereby unarmed black men (or lawfully armed black men) have been shot and killed by police.”

Just as many unarmed white men are shot and killed by police. So tell me, is it better to promote the lie that police are hunting down and murdering innocent unarmed black men? Or is it better to promote the truth that our police have become more militarized and a few are abusing their power? Is it better to have a small group of racists taking their hatred out on the citizenry? Or is it better to have the citizenry as a whole demanding action?

One thing you guys don’t realize is that when you create all these little groups to get them special treatment, you also push away those not of that group.

Posted by: kctim at September 20, 2016 2:44 PM
Comment #407664

Wannabe hit men might consider the law against killing other human being to be burdensome to their business and property rights. Of course, the role of government is to make an activity illegal if said activity threatens life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness of fellow citizens. Hence, we have laws against polluting the environment just like we laws against killing people. The fact that this disrupts the business model of some businesses is not our concern because safeguarding individual liberty is a much higher priority.

Unlike landownership, property rights do not extend to federal grants. The only rule is that all Americans ought to be guaranteed equal access to that money. So the conditions have to be same for anyone.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 2:44 PM
Comment #407665

Warren is bothered by burdensome government regulations except for those he likes. He has absolute confidence that un-elected bureaucrats can best determine the use of private land, wages to pay, who to hire, where to locate, and how to produce.

Let’s take Warren’s favorite defense of the “pursuit of happiness”.

There is one person out of perhaps 100,000 who is confused about their gender and who will not recognize what is between their legs as definitive.

Therefore, their pursuit of happiness trumps everything and everyone.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 20, 2016 2:52 PM
Comment #407666

OMG…I can’t believe this is happening.

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/mystery-going-hillarys-eyes-philly-speech/

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 20, 2016 3:20 PM
Comment #407667

kctim,

Trump is not just “speaking ill of his opponents”. He is insulting them and oftentimes invokes bigotry while doing so. No one but Trump has actively mocked a disabled reporter. No one but Trump has insulted someone on the basis of their religion like he did to Mrs. Khan. The list goes on.

Likewise, minor number spinning is commonplace. Wholescale fabrication is not. Trump lies about his wealth. He lies about his charitable donations. He lies about his Tax Plan. The guy simply cannot stop lying, yet many let him get away with it.

If you have a security clearance, you don’t ‘forget’ how to handle it properly. You don’t ‘forget’ how many phones you carry and send/receive classified information on. You don’t set up your own non secure personal server and ‘forget’ that you sent and received classified information on it.
Clinton genuinely thought the information she sent and received was unclassified. Her mistake is that she forgot that the drone program was top secret. That’s a sign of incompetence, but not one of malice. Remember, those emails about drones contained no markings to indicate they were top secret.

For the record, there is no evidence that Clinton ever had more than one email capable device at the same time. She apparently bought new Blackberries left and right and destroyed the old ones. So there is not yet an indication that her claim of “one device” is untrue.

Just as many unarmed white men are shot and killed by police. So tell me, is it better to promote the lie that police are hunting down and murdering innocent unarmed black men? Or is it better to promote the truth that our police have become more militarized and a few are abusing their power? Is it better to have a small group of racists taking their hatred out on the citizenry? Or is it better to have the citizenry as a whole demanding action?
Yes, but there are a few other issues to consider.

Firstly, Black people are the victims of the militarization of police disproportionately than White people.

Secondly, academics have researched the phenomenon of implicit association whereby racial attributes can impact decision-making even when a person is not consciously aware of it and said person ascribes to an anti-racist ideology. Findings suggest that special training is required to overcome these implicit associations.

Thirdly, the animosity between police and the Black community is quite old. Rebuilding the trust with that community needs to be a top priority in a day and age when Black neighborhoods often have higher crime rates than White ones.

But your point remains. The White victims of police militarization ought to create as much concern as the Black ones. It is my belief that if law enforcement adopts the reforms suggested by the BLM movement, then Americans of all races and ethnicities will benefit from a decrease in police violence.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 3:26 PM
Comment #407668

J2,
Do Clinton’s own words count as one of those “extremist groups?”

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/20/us/politics/hillary-clinton-emails-statements.html?_r=0

“Is it insulting to just lay out the truth a bit for you guys?”

Give it a try and I’ll let you know. Until then, I will continue to call out your attempts of deflection and trying to pass off opinion as fact.

“He is the kind of guy that can talk you guys into doing the wrong thing.”

I am not a Trump supporter and your ‘fear the future’ rhetoric is unjustified partisan claptrap.

“I have brought up the similarities between conservatives of today and the people of Germany in the ‘20’s and ‘30’s for years now.”

Yes, and you look just as foolish today as you did back then.
The real kicker though, is that your rhetoric isn’t based on any actual signs or proof of fascism, but rather on their disagreement with the policy you support. Add that to the fact that what they support is basically what the democratic party of 20 some years ago supported, and you guys look really foolish.

“I am sorry to see you choose to consider yourself more American than the rest of us as this kind of nationalism is just another example of where this is leading”

And I’m sorry that you view love of country, patriotism and support of our founding principles as some kind of a negative.

“I call to question your critical thinking skills and reasoning ability.”

Then you need to join Warren and start offering things that actually deserve critical thinking and reasoning.

“Because you make statements like “And seriously man, Trumps not even in the same league as Clinton when it comes to this crap” when in fact he and the conservative propaganda machine have you fooled.”

Trump suggested ONE person may have had something to do with what happened to Kennedy.
Hillary labeled millions of her fellow Americans “Racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic, you name it.” She called them “irredeemable” and “not America.” And, as Obama did, she insulted their intelligence and blamed the lack of support for liberal policy on ‘economic anxiety.’

The ‘propaganda machine’ has somebody fooled alright J2, but it’s not me.

Posted by: kctim at September 20, 2016 3:27 PM
Comment #407669
Therefore, their pursuit of happiness trumps everything and everyone.

Merely using the bathroom does not have any appreciable impact on anyone else. So there’s no “everything and everyone” to be trumped. Now, if said person engages in harassment or voyeurism, then its a different story, but those are illegal activities and remain so regardless of one’s genitalia.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 3:32 PM
Comment #407670
Hillary labeled millions of her fellow Americans “Racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic, you name it.” She called them “irredeemable” and “not America.” And, as Obama did, she insulted their intelligence and blamed the lack of support for liberal policy on ‘economic anxiety.’

Discounting her erroneous use of the word “half” (for which she has apologized), HRC was talking about perhaps a third of Trump’s supporters who indicate racist/sexist/xenophobic/homophobic/etc beliefs when they are polled. Assume 55% voter turnout and 40% support for Trump and we are talking about a third of the 22% of Americans who will vote for him. While 20 million people is certainly a decent chunk, I think it’s far fewer people than you had imagined.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 3:40 PM
Comment #407671

Warren: “Merely using the bathroom does not have any appreciable impact on anyone else.”

You know this to be true because…?

Merely using the bathroom according to the genitalia one is born with “does not have any appreciable impact on anyone else.”

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 20, 2016 3:57 PM
Comment #407672

“HRC was talking about perhaps a third of Trump’s supporters who indicate racist/sexist/xenophobic/homophobic/etc beliefs when they are polled.”

I would like a link to that poll please.

Is there a similar poll of Hillary’s supporters.

Question for my Leftie Pals.

Is it possible for any non-white male or female to be racist/sexist/xenophobic/homophobic/etc?

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 20, 2016 4:01 PM
Comment #407673

Warren,
You really want to go tit for tat over this?

A simple search shows that President Obama mocked disabled children.
A simple search shows Obama, Clinton and many other leftists insulting their opponents and being intolerant toward those who hold different opinions. Bitter clingers, murderer, racist, sexist, blah blah blah.
Your “no one but Trump” rant rings hollow.

“The guy simply cannot stop lying, yet many let him get away with it.”
Probably because both of those things are ‘personal matters.’

“Clinton genuinely thought the information she sent and received was unclassified.”

So the Sec. of State of the most powerful nation on earth, who proclaims to be “well aware of the classification requirements,” actually was not aware of them, and was so irresponsible that she ‘forgot’ about one of our most secret programs? No way she was in CYA mode after all her previous mistakes?

“For the record, there is no evidence that Clinton ever had more than one email capable device at the same time.”

July 2015
Media reports say that Mrs. Clinton used multiple devices – a BlackBerry and an iPad. She mostly relied on her BlackBerry for email, but she sometimes used her iPad to access email. After her aides were asked by the media about the iPad, they revised her statement. — Clinton campaign statement

“Firstly, Black people are the victims of the militarization of police disproportionately than White people.”

Is that because the evil white police officers are hunting them down and killing them for sport? Or is it because they live in crime ridden urban areas and are disproportionately responsible for the majority of violent crime?

“Secondly, academics have researched the phenomenon of implicit association whereby racial attributes can impact decision-making”

Real life experiences impact decision-making much much more. Blaming “racial attributes” is nothing but an excuse to avoid placing the blame where it belongs.

“But your point remains. The White victims of police militarization ought to create as much concern as the Black ones.”

The white victims don’t matter, Warren. When they stand up to local and federal governments, they are called far-right extremists, mocked and said to be worse than actual terrorists. When an unarmed white person is killed by police, we are told to wait for the facts before coming to any judgement.

It is my belief that as long as people keep seeing themselves as some BS hyphenated group instead of Americans, it doesn’t matter one bit what reforms law enforcement adopts.

Posted by: kctim at September 20, 2016 4:44 PM
Comment #407674
I would like a link to that poll please.

Is there a similar poll of Hillary’s supporters.

Ask and ye shall receive

A third of Trump’s supporters view Blacks as “less intelligent” than Whites. Only a fifth of supporters of other candidates think likewise.

Is it possible for any non-white male or female to be racist/sexist/xenophobic/homophobic/etc?

Have you heard of this neurosurgeon from Detroit named Ben Carson?

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 4:49 PM
Comment #407675

“While 20 million people is certainly a decent chunk, I think it’s far fewer people than you had imagined.”

Actually Warren, it’s much more than I imagined. When I said millions, I was thinking 6 or 7 million. IF I had imagined more than 20 million people, I probably would have said tens of millions.

The point still stands: She used leftist definitions to label millions of her fellow Americans as racist/sexist/xenophobic/homophobic/etc.

Posted by: kctim at September 20, 2016 4:49 PM
Comment #407676

Warren, thanks for the poll source “showing supporters who indicate racist/sexist/xenophobic/homophobic/etc beliefs when they are polled.”

Now I am really confused Warren as all I saw was polling about blacks vs whites. The answers to the questions are not racist in my opinion.

From the poll…are blacks or whites

more intelligent
lazy
rude
violent
criminal

Warren, get into your neutral brain mode and tell me if these questions and answers can justify Hillary’s accusation of racist/sexist/xenophobic/homophobic, etc.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 20, 2016 5:10 PM
Comment #407677
So the Sec. of State of the most powerful nation on earth, who proclaims to be “well aware of the classification requirements,” actually was not aware of them, and was so irresponsible that she ‘forgot’ about one of our most secret programs? No way she was in CYA mode after all her previous mistakes?

Given how frequently it is reported upon in the media, I can almost forgive someone for forgetting that the very existence of the drone program was considered a top secret. Of course, this doesn’t excuse the email with a memo discussing a phone call she made with the President of Malawi.

Media reports say that Mrs. Clinton used multiple devices – a BlackBerry and an iPad. She mostly relied on her BlackBerry for email, but she sometimes used her iPad to access email. After her aides were asked by the media about the iPad, they revised her statement. — Clinton campaign statement

The iPad was acquired years after the decision to conduct work business on a private server, so it isn’t relevant to Clinton’s claim that she chose her server arrangement in order to avoid having to carry two devices.

Is that because the evil white police officers are hunting them down and killing them for sport? Or is it because they live in crime ridden urban areas and are disproportionately responsible for the majority of violent crime?
The latter is what is true, but it does not excuse the killing of innocents.
Real life experiences impact decision-making much much more. Blaming “racial attributes” is nothing but an excuse to avoid placing the blame where it belongs.
I’m sure implicit association happens as a result of one’s life experiences, but that doesn’t mean implicit associations shouldn’t be combated.
The white victims don’t matter, Warren. When they stand up to local and federal governments, they are called far-right extremists, mocked and said to be worse than actual terrorists.
I have not observed this to be the case. The far right extremist groups that have been labeled worse than terrorists are not just protesting the death of an innocent at the hands of police. Usually they are making hay out of an entirely different issue.
When an unarmed white person is killed by police, we are told to wait for the facts before coming to any judgement.
People say wait for the facts when Black people are killed too. In fact, you said that yourself earlier today.
It is my belief that as long as people keep seeing themselves as some BS hyphenated group instead of Americans, it doesn’t matter one bit what reforms law enforcement adopts.

Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans and other groups don’t seem to have this problem.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 5:16 PM
Comment #407678

Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans and other groups don’t seem to have this problem.
Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 5:16 PM

What the hell are you talking about Warren. Pick up any newspaper or watch any news program. Can you tell us the last time an Irish or Italian lawbreaker was called; “Irish-American or Italian-American?

What world do you live in Warren that identifies people by nation of family origin? Hell, we don’t even say African-American anymore as it is so inaccurate.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 20, 2016 5:22 PM
Comment #407679

Warren, without looking it up can you tell us how Hillary and Trump should be identified when using hyphenated-American BS jargon?

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 20, 2016 5:25 PM
Comment #407680

RF,

People who are not racist do not ascribe personality traits to people’s race. The follow Martin Luther King’s credo and judge people by the contents of their character rather than the color of their skin.

In the Ipsos poll, people who responded affirmatively to those questions violate that credo. Those affirmative responses demonstrate that the person who was polled believes that one race is inherently superior to another, which is the dictionary definition of racism.

Granted, this is only with regards to racism. Other polling suggest similar results for Xenophobia, Homophobia and Islamophobia. I can share them if you accept the results of the racism poll. I am not aware of any poll that discusses sexism.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 5:31 PM
Comment #407681

Can anyone tell us the rules for hyphenated Americans?

If one is half Irish and half German ancestry which would be appropriate…Irish-American or German-American?

If one is half white and half black how is the race designation arrived at.

Just what are the rules Warren and where are they found and who wrote them?

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 20, 2016 5:34 PM
Comment #407682

Some conservatives have pulled the wool over their own eyes and simply are unable too now remove that. It kicked in when President Obama was elected and went into full on hatred whe he was re-elected. I expect this to continue if Hillary Clinton is elected. Their argumennts make no sense to any rational thinking adult but they do not care or even want to listen to that now. Sad, very sad.

Posted by: Speak4all at September 20, 2016 5:39 PM
Comment #407683

Warren writes; “People who are not racist do not ascribe personality traits to people’s race. The follow Martin Luther King’s credo and judge people by the contents of their character rather than the color of their skin.”

Actually Warren, I follow the christian code regarding my fellow man.

Please explain how words such as those defined in the poll, “intelligent, lazy, rude, violent, criminal” can be defined as “personality traits.”

Does a race have a “personality”?

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 20, 2016 5:44 PM
Comment #407684

European-American

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 6:11 PM
Comment #407685

Fine, they are more terms of character than they are of personality.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 6:12 PM
Comment #407686

Eastern or Western European-American? Silly designation for a person…even more useless than Irish or German American.

What if a person is half European and half Asian? At one time I believe they were called Eurasians in some quarters. Still useless. If I want to know the ancestry of someone I will ask. Otherwise, it’s none of my business and has absolutely no impact on our relationship.

“Fine, they are more terms of character than they are of personality.”
Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 6:12 PM

Do races have a definable “character” or “personality”? How can anyone define an entire race as “rude” or “violent”?

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 20, 2016 6:40 PM
Comment #407687
Eastern or Western European-American? Silly designation for a person…even more useless than Irish or German American.

What if a person is half European and half Asian?

People with multiple ethnic backgrounds usually identify as multiracial or biracial. Ultimately, it is up to the individual in question to pick his or her appropriate identity.

Otherwise, it’s none of my business and has absolutely no impact on our relationship.

That’s how I live too. I have quite a few friends with Asian ancestry and they always tell me how annoying it is when people think it’s cute to ask them “where are you from?” when they really mean “what is your ancestry?”

Do races have a definable “character” or “personality”?
No
How can anyone define an entire race as “rude” or “violent”?
I don’t know. Ask someone who is racist. Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 7:08 PM
Comment #407688

How can anyone define an entire race as “rude” or “violent”?

I don’t know. Ask someone who is racist. Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 7:08 PM

Ask Hillary, it was her campaign that ordered and paid for the poll wasn’t it?

Warren, what do you suppose she intended for this poll to convey? You bit, I know this because you linked to it to prove a point.

How do you feel about this poll now Warren?

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 20, 2016 7:14 PM
Comment #407689

Can you even read? The poll was conducted by Ipsos on behalf of Reuters.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 20, 2016 8:00 PM
Comment #407691
J2, Do Clinton’s own words count as one of those “extremist groups?”

I was thinking more of this type of extremist thinking kctim, http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/bodycount.asp

Until then, I will continue to call out your attempts of deflection and trying to pass off opinion as fact.

The problem with this type of approach kctim is you seem unable to distinguish between truth and fiction,as it has to filter through your ideology to be considered. So I won’t hold my breath waiting for you figure it out.

I am not a Trump supporter and your ‘fear the future’ rhetoric is unjustified partisan claptrap.

I sure hope you are right on this one kctim, time will tell should Trump force his way into the leadership of the country.

Yes, and you look just as foolish today as you did back then.

That is what many conservatives said back then as well kctim. Read your history a bit.


The real kicker though, is that your rhetoric isn’t based on any actual signs or proof of fascism, but rather on their disagreement with the policy you support.

Not true kctim. Once again read up, not a Glenn Beck type of read up, but go out side the propaganda machine for once. Policy is part of what makes a fascist kctim, you do realize that right? Trump has the nationalism, the hatred of minorities and religious groups he deems responsible for the ills of the world. Throw in the violence at his campaign rallies and we have a start.


Add that to the fact that what they support is basically what the democratic party of 20 some years ago supported, and you guys look really foolish.

And I’m the one that deflects according to you!

And I’m sorry that you view love of country, patriotism and support of our founding principles as some kind of a negative.

For such a smarmy answer this one sure misses the point kctim. At issue is your inability to see the love of country etc in others you disagree with,you guys seem to think you have some kind of extra special patriotism, but it is nationalism.

Then you need to join Warren and start offering things that actually deserve critical thinking and reasoning.

Seems what I offered went right over your head kctim.

Trump suggested ONE person may have had something to do with what happened to Kennedy. Hillary labeled millions of her fellow Americans “Racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic, you name it.” She called them “irredeemable” and “not America.” And, as Obama did, she insulted their intelligence and blamed the lack of support for liberal policy on ‘economic anxiety.’

Well so much for critical thinking and reasoning with this response kctim. For starters this apples and oranges comparison is laughable at best.

The ‘propaganda machine’ has somebody fooled alright J2, but it’s not me.

“It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” - Mark Twain


Posted by: j2t2 at September 21, 2016 12:54 AM
Comment #407692
J2, Do Clinton’s own words count as one of those “extremist groups?”

I was thinking more of this type of extremist thinking kctim, http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/bodycount.asp

Until then, I will continue to call out your attempts of deflection and trying to pass off opinion as fact.

The problem with this type of approach kctim is you seem unable to distinguish between truth and fiction,as it has to filter through your ideology to be considered. So I won’t hold my breath waiting for you figure it out.

I am not a Trump supporter and your ‘fear the future’ rhetoric is unjustified partisan claptrap.

I sure hope you are right on this one kctim, time will tell should Trump force his way into the leadership of the country.

Yes, and you look just as foolish today as you did back then.

That is what many conservatives said back then as well kctim. Read your history a bit.


The real kicker though, is that your rhetoric isn’t based on any actual signs or proof of fascism, but rather on their disagreement with the policy you support.

Not true kctim. Once again read up, not a Glenn Beck type of read up, but go out side the propaganda machine for once. Policy is part of what makes a fascist kctim, you do realize that right? Trump has the nationalism, the hatred of minorities and religious groups he deems responsible for the ills of the world. Throw in the violence at his campaign rallies and we have a start.


Add that to the fact that what they support is basically what the democratic party of 20 some years ago supported, and you guys look really foolish.

And I’m the one that deflects according to you!

And I’m sorry that you view love of country, patriotism and support of our founding principles as some kind of a negative.

For such a smarmy answer this one sure misses the point kctim. At issue is your inability to see the love of country etc in others you disagree with,you guys seem to think you have some kind of extra special patriotism, but it is nationalism.

Then you need to join Warren and start offering things that actually deserve critical thinking and reasoning.

Seems what I offered went right over your head kctim.

Trump suggested ONE person may have had something to do with what happened to Kennedy. Hillary labeled millions of her fellow Americans……

Well so much for critical thinking and reasoning with this response kctim. For starters this apples and oranges comparison is laughable at best.

The ‘propaganda machine’ has somebody fooled alright J2, but it’s not me.

“It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” - Mark Twain

Posted by: j2t2 at September 21, 2016 12:57 AM
Comment #407693

So why do conservatives think Trump is so honest and trustworthy despite all the evidence to the contrary? Just comnpare the two yet according to our conservative friends on WB Clinton is the liar!

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/hillary-clinton/

Posted by: j2t2 at September 21, 2016 1:28 AM
Comment #407695

“so it isn’t relevant to Clinton’s claim that she chose her server arrangement in order to avoid having to carry two devices.”

I’m not speculating about why she chose to use an unsecured personal server that she had total control over instead of the .gov server. She stated that she carried one device when she knew she used multiple devices to send/receive classified information on her unsecured server.

“The latter is what is true, but it does not excuse the killing of innocents.”

It also does not excuse the attitudes and actions that have led to most of these deaths.

“The far right extremist groups that have been labeled worse than terrorists are not just protesting the death of an innocent at the hands of police. Usually they are making hay out of an entirely different issue.”

Police are a hand of the local governments. The alphabets are a hand of the federal government. What is being protested is governments abuse of power and excessive use of force.
It’s the same issue, Warren, your politics just don’t allow you to acknowledge it.

“People say wait for the facts when Black people are killed too. In fact, you said that yourself earlier today.”

And yet, Ferguson and Baltimore burned BEFORE the facts were known.

“Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans and other groups don’t seem to have this problem.”

That’s because having an Irish or Italian background comes second to being an American. Because they don’t choose to live 150+ years in the past to justify their demands for special treatment.

Posted by: kctim at September 21, 2016 9:02 AM
Comment #407696

We had an issue here in Charlotte last night that appears to be sparked by a post on social media with a one sided description of what happened. Time will tell whether this version or the version described by the police chief is more accurate.

j2t2 Trump is not honest or trustworthy. Neither is Hillary. If you want to vote for one of the two parties that actually have a chance of winning then those data points are meaningless.

Warren, “where are you from?” is a very southern expression and has to do with the Scotch/Irish ancestry of the area. You don’t hear it as much around here as the South has seen a huge influx of people from all walks of life, but regardless of race/color/religion/etc it would be one of the first questions I would naturally ask someone I just met.

Posted by: George in SC at September 21, 2016 10:03 AM
Comment #407697

“I was thinking more of this type of extremist thinking http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/bodycount.asp”

Interesting, J2. I provided you with actual quotes from Hillary herself, but you want to discuss conspiracy theories that I have made no mention of. You know, trying to ignore valid facts by lumping them in with conspiracy theory is standard operating procedure for the left, but it leaves you guys pretty much ‘debating’ only yourselves in an incoherent circle j*rk of your own making.

“you seem unable to distinguish between truth and fiction,as it has to filter through your ideology to be considered.”

The only filter I use are actual facts, J2. My unwillingness to blindly accept your opinions as facts does not mean I am unable to distinguish between truth and fiction. Your unwillingness to acknowledge facts that do not support your partisan politics also does not.

“That is what many conservatives said back then as well kctim. Read your history a bit.”

I read history plenty enough, J2 and there is no more validity to your fascist doom predictions than there was to the same kind of predictions about Obama and his ‘cult’ followers back in 08.

“Not true kctim. Once again read up, not a Glenn Beck type of read up, but go out side the propaganda machine for once.”

This deflection again? Yawn.

“Policy is part of what makes a fascist kctim, you do realize that right?”

Fascism - a political system headed by a dictator in which the government controls business and labor and opposition is not permitted.

Only one side of our political structure supports a policy of a strong, controlling centralized government and using it to punish those who oppose its progressively intrusive politics, and it’s not those on the right.

“Trump has the nationalism,”

The efforts today to try and turn love of country, respect for our founding principles and values, into some kind of extreme, is sickening.

“the hatred of minorities and religious groups he deems responsible for the ills of the world.”

Not pandering to ‘minorities’ is not hatred. Acknowledging facts and putting America and its people first, is not hatred.

“And I’m the one that deflects according to you!”

“At issue is your inability to see the love of country etc in others you disagree with,you guys seem to think you have some kind of extra special patriotism, but it is nationalism.”

Not true. It’s not an inability to see the love of country in others that I simply disagree with, it’s my refusal to accept that people can love America when they wish to transform it into something it was never meant to be.
Respect for individual rights and freedoms does not make one some kind of extreme nationalist, J2.

“Seems what I offered went right over your head kctim.”

Um, no. While conspiracy theory and doom and gloom predictions based on partisan rhetoric are entertaining to discuss when they are the subject, they have no place in logical discussions.

“Well so much for critical thinking and reasoning with this response kctim. For starters this apples and oranges comparison is laughable at best.”

Two people making an absurd claim for political advancement, and you call that apples and oranges?

“It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” - Mark Twain

Best explanation of Hillary voters to date, J2.

Posted by: kctim at September 21, 2016 10:04 AM
Comment #407699
Interesting, J2. I provided you with actual quotes from Hillary herself, but you want to discuss conspiracy theories that I have made no mention of.

kctim you seem to want to focus on an issue that the FBI has already cleared Hillary of. Now that is alright once you put in a disclaimer that all the conservative propaganda machine BS from the past 25 years is just fabricated lies to discredit her. BTW while you are at it add the disclaimer the FBI did not bring charges, once again on Hillary for any wrongdoing.

The only filter I use are actual facts, J2.

SO you say kctim yet you seem to be unable to deal with the fact that the level of disregard of law that you claim. The FBI did not charge her with a violation of the law. So the selective use of facts may be your style but it is still a filter. When you use a separate set of standards to define one candidate then discard the standards to protect …. well lot of filters IMHO kctim.

Only one side of our political structure supports a policy of a strong, controlling centralized government and using it to punish those who oppose its progressively intrusive politics, and it’s not those on the right.

Well see kctim you really aren’t paying attention then… PATRIOT ACT, perpetual war, authoritarian restrictions on minorities, Voter suppression laws…. well can we agree your right wing representatives in Congress say one thing but do another. They invoke nationalism as much as Trump does. They blame the problems of the country on gays and minorities and so on. Don’t be fooled because they let you carry your weapons so you can intimidate these minorities.

Not true. It’s not an inability to see the love of country in others that I simply disagree with, it’s my refusal to accept that people can love America when they wish to transform it into something it was never meant to be.

With Liberty and Justice for all kctim, not for the wealthy landowner only!!! The Constitution told us “We the People” yet some were only 3/5th of a person without rights. It was a start not the end all and be all kctim. Just because those on the right feel they have lost individual rights because others have gained rights doesn’t make it so.

Respect for individual rights and freedoms does not make one some kind of extreme nationalist, J2.

Very true kctim. But this silly deflection is not what nationalism is either.

Two people making an absurd claim for political advancement, and you call that apples and oranges?

Yes and a rather blatant one at that.


Best explanation of Hillary voters to date, J2.

uh… yeah… right…. why do you make it so easy to prove Mr. Twain right?

Posted by: j2t2 at September 21, 2016 11:42 AM
Comment #407701
Warren, “where are you from?” is a very southern expression and has to do with the Scotch/Irish ancestry of the area. You don’t hear it as much around here as the South has seen a huge influx of people from all walks of life, but regardless of race/color/religion/etc it would be one of the first questions I would naturally ask someone I just met.

Thank you for the clarification and I must clarify what I wrote before. My friends do not mind curiosity about where they were born or grew up. They gladly share how they were born and raised in Queens, New York. What irks them is when people press further and ask Where are you really from?

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 21, 2016 2:46 PM
Comment #407703

J2,

The FBI did not clear Clinton of her documented lies or leftist hypocrisy. Nor did they clear her of mishandling classified information. What the FBI did was ‘clear’ her incompetence by saying they did not believe it was intentional.

“Well see kctim you really aren’t paying attention then… PATRIOT ACT, perpetual war, authoritarian restrictions on minorities, Voter suppression laws….”

Talk about “the selective use of facts,” J2. Sheesh.
Fact: BOTH Republican and democrat politicians voted for the Patriot Act.
Fact: democrat politicians did NOT rid us of the Patriot Act when they had the power to do so.
Fact: After 8 years under a democrat as President, the Patriot Act, as a whole, is still in effect.
Fact: There is no drive for never-ending war.

Authoritarian
“favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom.

Fact: There are no restrictions on minorities.
Fact: Being able to verify who you are before one votes is in not worthy of being called ‘authoritarian.’
Now, being punished for not purchasing what government demands be purchased, is absolutely authoritarian because it strips away ones personal freedom of choice.

“They blame the problems of the country on gays and minorities and so on.”

Fact: No. What they do is dare NOT support the same leftist policies you support so you engage in hyperbole in hopes of drumming up support for your side.

“Don’t be fooled because they let you carry your weapons so you can intimidate these minorities.”

Fact: I do not carry any weapons and my refusal to treat people differently because of some group the left has put them in to pander for their votes, is hardly intimidating.

“With Liberty and Justice for all kctim, not for the wealthy landowner only!!!”

I’ve told you before J2, I don’t play that dumb evil 1% conspiracy game. But IF I did, I sure as he11 wouldn’t be complaining about the 1% in one breathe and pledging my support to Clinton (a 1%er you know) in the next.
Consistency J2, try it some time.

“Just because those on the right feel they have lost individual rights because others have gained rights doesn’t make it so.”

Actually, those on the right feel they have lost individual rights because they HAVE lost them in order to give others special treatment under guise of being newly created ‘rights.’
That’s what happens when you base rights on material things and feelings, J2. You lose track of what is actually an individual right and what is a desire.

Posted by: kctim at September 21, 2016 3:52 PM
Comment #407707

Gotcha Warren.

Long night here. It’s surreal to see the scenes from downtown Charlotte with the building I used to work in standing behind a row of riot police. Our company has a function next weekend in the Epicenter where last night a person was gravely wounded. I think what is lost in BLM and what is lost in blind support of the police is that there is a problem, either real or perceived, with modern police interactions. Mr. Scott’s death is a life altering tragedy on both sides and I hope that something more than these riots can come of it.

Posted by: George in SC at September 22, 2016 9:10 AM
Comment #407709
The FBI did not clear Clinton of her documented lies or leftist hypocrisy.

Yet no charges for any criminal wrongdoing! Despite the noise for the extremist right wing, once again. Year after year faux scandal after faux scandal and you talk of leftist hypocrisy, how silly. Wolf wolf wolf yet nothing but puppy puppy puppy after all these years!!! You accuse me of hyperbole and then use “documented lies or leftist hypocrisy” as if…..

Talk about “the selective use of facts,” J2. Sheesh.

Not to mention your lack of reasoning. Remember you told us it was the left. You also seem to forget who had the PARTRIOT Acr already drawn up just waiting for the crisis to make it law. Not to mention the repub controlled Congress that would have to repeal the law before the president could sign it. The denial of war is well…. I guess you are just doing what the movement leaders tell you kctim. But stop and think how long we have had been fighting terror before you tell us “There is no drive for never-ending war” as if it were a fact please.

Authoritarian “favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom.

Good, now lets add the new form of government, the corporation, and the money rules system of government conservatives seem to favor.

Fact: There are no restrictions on minorities.

Right… are you suggesting Trump and his proposed treatment of Muslims, as an example, is just fodder to convince the voters to vote for him?

Fact: Being able to verify who you are before one votes is in not worthy of being called ‘authoritarian.’

But kctim, passing laws to intentionally keep voters from voting, under the guise of preventing fraud that doesn’t exist is. Remember movement leaders have stated their goal, 3% of the vote, suppress 3% of the vote so we can win.

Fact: No. What they do is dare NOT support the same leftist policies you support so you engage in hyperbole in hopes of drumming up support for your side….. and so on…. and so forth

First of all lets get educated on what a fact is and what an opinion is kctim. You seem to have confused the two once again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion

Secondly wow all the rest of your facts are just opinions as well, wrong headed and it seems you have added your own misinformation as well.

I do not support Clinton I just don’t believe the right wing propaganda about her. I find it foolish,this 1% conspiracy BS you use to belittle the actual issue here kctim. Why do you think the 1% spend so much on politicians? Why do you consider it a right to bribe politicians? Wow a Trump non supporter calling a Clinton non supporter inconsistent! Hypocrisy, hyperbole much kctim?


Actually, those on the right feel they have lost individual rights because they HAVE lost them in order to give others special treatment under guise of being newly created ‘rights.’

Sure they do but that doesn’t make them right, just right wing. To think that giving a right to vote to a women, a black or someone who isn’t a landowner violates your rights is well.. sad.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 22, 2016 11:09 AM
Comment #407710

J2,
I provided you with documented quotes, from Hillary herself, of her lying. I provided you with the actual dictionary definitions of words you like to wrongly use and throw around for shock value.
The FBI report did not clear Hillary of wrongdoing, it said she was careless with our nations classified information but they did not believe it was intentional.
That is fact, J2, not some ‘faux scandal’ or hyperbole that can be ignored for purely partisan reasons.

“Remember you told us it was the left.”

I said it was the left that favors a strong centralized government at the expense of personal freedoms.
I said it was BOTH Republicans and democrats who passed the Patriot Act, and who have allowed it to stay in place.
Please tell me how either of those are wrong.

“You also seem to forget who had the PARTRIOT Acr already drawn up just waiting for the crisis to make it law.”

Jim Sensenbrenner “introduced the USA PATRIOT Act to the House on October 23, 2001. Although the primary author was Assistant Attorney General of the United States Viet Dinh,[citation needed] Sensenbrenner has been recognized as “one of the architects of the Patriot Act”

“The denial of war is well…. I guess you are just doing what the movement leaders tell you kctim.”

Movement leaders such as President Obama?
The “Global War on Terror” is over, President Barack Obama announced…
“We must define our effort not as a boundless ‘Global War on Terror,’ but rather as a series of persistent, targeted efforts to dismantle specific networks of violent extremists that threaten America,” Obama said.

You apparently disagree with President Obama and myself, so please feel free to offer the facts that prove us wrong.

“Good, now lets add the new form of government, the corporation, and the money rules system of government conservatives seem to favor.”

Um, no. As I said before, I do not fall prey to the silly 1%, Bilderberg, NWO, corporation takeover, conspiracy theories.

“Right… are you suggesting Trump and his proposed treatment of Muslims, as an example, is just fodder to convince the voters to vote for him?”

What IS his “proposed treatment” of Americans who label themselves as muslims, J2?
The ‘database’? Won’t happen without the support of the Senate, House and Supreme Court.
Infiltrating mosques? The FBI and Homeland Security ALREADY infiltrate organizations.

“passing laws to intentionally keep voters from voting, under the guise of preventing fraud that doesn’t exist is.”

NO LAWS have been passed that intentionally keeps voters from voting.
Can an ID be inconvenient? Yes.

“First of all lets get educated on what a fact is and what an opinion is kctim”

No need, J2. It is a fact that the left engages in hyperbole and lies to attack those who dare disagree with them.

“I do not support Clinton I just don’t believe the right wing propaganda about her.”

I’ve never asked you to believe propaganda, J2. I have only asked that you accept the facts. For God sakes man, we are talking about what Hillary has actually said and done, not about the ‘Clinton body count’ or whatever.

“Why do you think the 1% spend so much on politicians?”

For the exact same reason other special interests groups do it: to gain support for what benefits them. Unions, the NAACP, NRA, NOW, LGBT etc… ALL spend money on politicians for their support.

“Sure they do but that doesn’t make them right, just right wing.”

That would be true if we weren’t losing our individual rights, but we are.

“To think that giving a right to vote to a women, a black or someone who isn’t a landowner violates your rights is well.. sad.”

The right to vote isn’t a newly create faux ‘right,’ nor is it based on materialism. But you already knew that and are just grasping at straws here, aren’t you.

Posted by: kctim at September 22, 2016 12:47 PM
Comment #407711

Weary Willie-
What puzzles me here is how you think it’s alright to rage and rage and rage and rage at Hillary for charges you can’t even present good documentary evidence for, but, hey, if we accuse Trump of corruption with some decent evidence, you go ballistic. It’s like it’s politically incorrect to hurt Trump’s image, even though it’s open season on Hillary.

Royal Flush-
Oh. That’s right. We’re going off the new standard. Well, close to the time when Obama was born, the standard, which brought with it discrimination, was the one-drop rule, which said that if you had any African ancestry, you were considered black. And please, looking at him, does he not look like a somewhat typical black man?

You just seem to want to argue any significance out of his record, in a way you would NOT do for your people.

I mean, the sum total of your blatantly discriminatory argument is that unless we cleansed our mind of the historic import of what we were doing, that we would be racist for thinking it’s a positive that his candidacy broke barriers.

We’ve never elected a Black President before. For all too many years, we most likely passed over a great many good candidates for this and lower offices because they weren’t pale enough for white people to be comfortable about him. It was supposedly something that couldn’t happen! Yet, somehow, this guy gets people to stand up and take notice. Eloquent, intelligent, with credentials and positions that would be impressive on any man or woman’s resume. He takes on a major power in the Democratic Party and WINS.

We didn’t have to ignore a ton of negatives. Republicans had to invent a ton of them. This whole Birther thing is Republicans trying to pass him off as some kind of illegal alien manchurian candidate, disqualified by the constitution from serving. You took his name, took his family history, and made a bitterly bigoted lie out of it, one that you and your Candidates have kept up even after documentary proof was released establishing the President’s bonafides as a citizen.

The truth doesn’t matter to you. The irony is, if Trump is elected, you will most certainly suffer for all the lies you swallowed, all the lies you repeated. I’d let you do that, but the problem is, I’d have to suffer along with you poor, gullible folks.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 22, 2016 12:58 PM
Comment #407712

Weary Willie-
The guy could have taken the money he was left (much more than one million) socked it into an index fund, and made more money. He has left a trail of wrecked companies behind him, both his own and others.

But you will ignore that. Because not ignoring that means losing.

He has corruptly used charity funds for personal gain, channeled campaign funds meant to pay for his campaign experiences to his own facilities and companies.

But you will ignore that, because not ignoring that means losing.

He is, indeed, involved in governments and businesses all over the world, in fact owes many banks overseas money, which means in all too many cases he has considerable conflicts of interest in doing his job.

But you will ignore that, because not ignoring that means losing.

So many things that people have to overlook, from his multiple marriages, to his foul mouth, to his refusal to be held accountable, to participate in debates without attaching preconditions meant to coddle him, to release his Tax Returns like every other President in recent American history, Democrat or Republican. Funny. If he thinks revealing whats in his returns will harm him in the election, isn’t that thought itself all too revealing of his character?

And really, don’t tell me that what the Federal Government does doesn’t impact you. If you take out a mortgage, invest money, eat food bought from a supermarket, work a job, etc., the federal government affects you, and having a corrupt bastard who will put his interests and that of the other elite ahead of everybody else will most certainly cause us problems.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 22, 2016 1:07 PM
Comment #407713

Daugherty wrote; “We’ve never elected a Black President before.” “The truth doesn’t matter to you.”

We still have not elected a Black president. He is a mulatto. Am I making a racist statement? Am I not writing the “truth”?

At the end of his rant against Trump Daugherty has an accurate observation…the national government has intruded into nearly every aspect of each individual American life from food to work.

Daugherty wants the control over all levers of government, and individual Americans to remain in Washington and not be diminished by a Trump administration.

He defines Trump as a corrupt and elite private citizen as opposed to Clinton as an elite and corrupt high office-holding politician.

Hmmm…tough choice.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 22, 2016 2:05 PM
Comment #407717

Royal Flush-
He is both a mulatto, and the first Black President. Halle Berry is, in your rather old-fashioned and hair-splitting terms, a Mulatto, but she’s also considered a black actress.

As for the rest?

You have a bad habit of speaking for me as if you know my thoughts, but usually what you do is restate your own propaganda as if that’s how I actually think.

I believe in what you might call conditional power. Which is to say, I believe in power that is only exercised when certain conditions are met. People would never now this if they asked you, but then they shouldn’t be asking YOU for MY opinion.

I also believe that we govern best when we govern where it proves necessary. If folks from Wall Street prove repeatedly unable to avoid huge systemic risks by using self-policing, we don’t test capitalism to destruction in order to prove that they can do it. We step in and say, because of all the damage this has done, you can’t do this anymore.

You get all huffy about the Federal government being involved with food and work, but given how interconnected and interstate modern commerce is, I’d like you to tell me how State or local governments could legitimately pull everything off. I mean, if you let them. It seems nowadays that even at the State level, only certain experiments are allowed, only certain views are allowed. You profess to be lovers of freedom and states rights, but it seems like that’s just something you tell the rubes to put them at ease as you strip away the protections that keep big companies from cheating and endangering them.

As for Corruption? Look, you guys insinuate and you accuse Clinton of a lot. But the substance tends to lack. Now they’re not perfect, and that’s why they weren’t my first choice last time. However if you confront me with a choice between Clinton, whose foundation may have some conflicts of interest, and Trump, whose foundation is being used to pay off legal judgments against him, which is likely illegal… well, I’m more inclined to be harsher on the proven charge than the insinuated one. If my choice is between more corruption and less, I’m choosing less.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 22, 2016 2:25 PM
Comment #407718

Oh, and the term does have some fairly ugly connotations, particularly since the meaning of it traces back in the primary etymology to the Spanish for mule, the offspring of a horse and a donkey.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 22, 2016 2:29 PM
Comment #407719

Mr. Daugherty is so transparent in his political views that there simply is no challenge for me anymore to debating him.

From his comments everyone knows that he likes big government and wants more of it. He is a whiner and wants government to cover his butt when he makes mistakes. He is not an entrepreneur, hates risk, and prefers the safety of a government controlled group over individualism. He demands protection for groups he likes. He demands government be his brain (redundant and unnecessary regulations) so he is not required to think for himself. For the perception of safety he willingly gives up liberty.

So sad for my Leftie Pal.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 22, 2016 2:37 PM
Comment #407729

RF,

You need to debate what SD actually writes and not the false image you project onto him.

Posted by: Warren Porter at September 23, 2016 11:05 AM
Comment #407730
I provided you with documented quotes, from Hillary herself, of her lying. I provided you with the actual dictionary definitions of words you like to wrongly use and throw around for shock value.

The problem kctim is movement propagandist have been doing this for so long, this crying wolf at the least little faux pas that no one believes a thing you say anymore. On just this particular issue alone you guys have went from a “many years in prison” type accusation to a made up charge of documented lies and leftist hypocrisy! You have used up conservative credibility with all the nonsense.


The FBI report did not clear Hillary of wrongdoing, it said she was careless with our nations classified information but they did not believe it was intentional.

No charges, no treason no willful violation of the law nothing but smoke kctim. To bad you guys can’t run on issues or Trump’s record.

You apparently disagree with President Obama and myself, so please feel free to offer the facts that prove us wrong.

Quite the opposite kctim, the war on terror was ongoing for over 12 years before Obama made this statement. So despite the war on terror being over what else has changes? The PATRIOT Act? TSA is still doing it’s thing. Congress hasn’t changed any of the laws needed to fight the “war on terror” so other than calling it a different name what has changed?

Gotta go, I’ll try to finish up this weekend.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 23, 2016 12:07 PM
Comment #407733

Royal Flush-
I envy how stress-free it must be to send out your fake arguments to fight your fake version of me, and never once have to worry about the kind of research and thought more sophisticated and learned argumentation would require.

A business can be allowed to fail, to keep people honest. And yes, bad things have to be allowed to happen, even to good people, to keep them honest. Mistakes that carry no penalty prompt no improvement in behavior.

But there’s also a such thing as a system which is too unforgiving, or too unstable to maintain the economy as a whole. In your zeal to impose markets without a filter on people, you fail to consider that the consequences for letting things get this out of control is that people will revolt against the system, and take it out of the hands of the capitalists.

By the way: that’s hardly the outcome I want. I grew up seeing how communism works in the real world. I think a system must both embrace the individual and the group in how it works, because that’s how people work. We are social creatures who also choose and think about things individually.

I believe there are things worth giving up safety for. You might rage against letting refugees in. I’m perfectly alright in taking the miniscule risk to do right by my fellow human beings. I’m also willing to fully carry out the meaning of constitution, unlike you, who would read your way through the bill of rights selectively and ignorantly to suit your authoritarian vision of government.

You want a blusterer in charge. I want somebody who is actually working to make things more stable so that people like me aren’t having to fight their stupidity along with our own personal trials and tribulations. So many of the people hurt by the economic crisis were doing nothing wrong when the consequences of what a few people did on Wall Street overwhelmed their good fortune, made their virtue meaningless. I have spent a decade doing my best to support my family because my father never had decent healthcare coverage when he should have had it. We have endured all kinds of financial hardships, from the price of gas to the specter of unemployment and benefit cuts because of the misjudgments of those on Wall Street, and in the White House.

My basic criteria, voting out there, is to seek candidates who will make my fairly difficult life easier. I have worked steadily for the past decade. I’m not a moocher or a load. I do things for the community, deliver value for the check I draw every pay-day.

If you want to vote for somebody who will make your life more exciting, fine by me. But in a real way, I’m more conservative than you, more careful, more prudent. I’m not hoping that my dream tax cuts won’t explode the deficit, like you are. I’m not hoping that the potholes fill themselves, or the bridges and water pipes replace themselves. I am not ignoring problems and letting this country slide into decay so the few on top can live lifestyles of the rich and famous without having to care about the little people.

I am voting in my own self interest, not in the self interests of somebody I know is under no obligation to share a damn dime with me or anybody else. I’d just as soon be able to make ends meet with the money I make. I don’t want to have to beg or borrow to make ends meet.

But hey, that is exactly your policy. Knock away all your rhetoric, and it’s all about keeping people in the dependent shadow of the upper class, who you’ve concluded are naturally better than the rest of us.

What I want is a system that gives opportunity and rewards work like you people say it’s supposed to. What I want is for our government to serve the purposes of the most people, to the best effect.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 23, 2016 3:14 PM
Comment #407734

Stephen, “Dependent shadows of the upper class” give me one example of a person in your party that isn’t part of that upper class? What you seek in a candidate is admirable but like that old saying “Wish in one hand and S**T in the other see which one fills up the fastest” and that is what we got in our candidates, a hand full of S**T. If this is the best the 2 major parties can do, we are in DEEP S**T!!!!

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at September 23, 2016 4:45 PM
Comment #407740

Mr. Daugherty wrote; ” I’m not hoping that my dream tax cuts won’t explode the deficit, like you are. I’m not hoping that the potholes fill themselves, or the bridges and water pipes replace themselves.”

In one sentence Mr. Daugherty sums up my estimation of his political views. Exploding the deficit and growing the national debt has been the hallmark of the Obama administration and Left desires. Who gained from that $10 Trillion Mr. Daugherty? Isn’t that gigantic amount of money enough to fill the potholes, fix bridges and replace water pipes?

OH…Wait…is filling potholes and replacing water pipes really the job of the national government?

Daughert writes; ” Knock away all your rhetoric, and it’s all about keeping people in the dependent shadow of the upper class…”

Has the war on poverty worked. Are minorities better off today or more dependent upon government that they were fifty years ago?

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 24, 2016 1:43 PM
Comment #407852

Rich KAPitan-
You really are ones to talk about the elite nature of our candidates. You want to elect a person who claims to be a billionaire President. But do me a favor here, and actually read, instead of looking for your next phrase to twist. I don’t mind that there are rich people out there. I really don’t. I mind folks who get rich in immoral ways, by deception, by cutting corners, endangering others, by fostering ignorance about the natural sciences, etc.

I mind folks who concentrate political and economic power, but then expect to be able to use that power without any accountability for those actions.

When some a**hole on Wall Street crashes and burns their mutual fund, or their proprietary trading desk, I don’t want some chain reaction turning their life-lesson in taking bad risks, and making it a punishment for tens of millions of people who weren’t doing anything wrong to merit it. I want the system arranged so that the damage is contained to those who took the risks.

I want people better able to pay for things out of what they have, rather than being forced to borrow so much from the future to pay for their needs now. I want to make it easier for people, all people to be upwardly mobile. I want the sort of safety net in place that allows people to recover from when bad fortune comes their way.

I don’t want people basically used like feedstock and livestock for richer folks who don’t have any interest in their personal prosperity. I don’t want the average person put in a situation where it’s likely they’ll die a debtor.

Royal Flush-
You live in a fantasy land. You’ve relied all your life on a system invisible to you, that you take for granted. I don’t. I know the system needs an overhaul. You’re too busy trying to oppose Obama and the Progressives to see that they’ve got a point.

Let me point you towards Flint. You think its cheap to dig up all that lead pipe and replace it? Let me point you towards the electrical grid, a federal issue if there ever was one, because of the way the powerlines cross borders. The cities are criss-crossed with freeways created under the interstate highway program…

And as for the national debt?

You still live in a fantasy land. In that land, you didn’t start a war and not finish it, costing trillions. In that land, you didn’t pass tax cuts, and not freeze them in place when the economy went south. In that land Bush didn’t leave office with a massive recession in progress, the economics dragging down revenues.

You act as if Obama automatically set all policies, all the condtions when he got into office. But he didn’t. He didn’t even pass the TARP legislation. That was Bush. But in your mind everything must be his fault, because if it’s not, then your next Republican President has a steep hill to climb.

And they should. Tax Cuts, both times, have been followed by returns and deeper dives into deficit. Your economic policies have invariably tilted towards recession. The issue is, really, your policies tend to downplay the importance of what is really the prevailing environment of our economy: the average person’s economic condition. Which, by the way, we actually did improve, cutting poverty in half from the sixties to the turn of the century.

Problem is, a lot of the people you put inordinate trust in aren’t happy simply to make a lot of money and be rich. They’re not happy to just have their share of the pie. They want everybody else’s, too. And because they’re powerful, they often succeed. They make the decisions on how much people are paid, whether they keep their jobs…

You blame people for seeking out more money, higher wages, etc., as if anybody could reasonably expect folks not to act out in their own interests. Simple truth is that this is human nature, and it is this human nature in fact that a healthy market is based on. The government is part of what helps to keep the balance for the people against the powerful, who might otherwise overwhelm their interests.

Long story short… Well, let me be blunt. You have to be a real fool to believe that it’s the object of millions of people like myself to destroy the country around us, to send debt skyrocketing or any of that. You really have to be. The truth is, people just want what they’ve always wanted, and for the most part, they just want the world stable around them so they can do that in peace.

It’s time to grow up and realize that people at heart can’t be much different than each other, and that you and others are the victim of politicians who have tried for years to isolate you and others away from competing messages and competing candidates so they could win without having to field especially good candidates.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 29, 2016 1:14 PM
Comment #407871

Stephen, You need to take a course in reading, show me where I said I was voting for Trump, in fact I said “Wish in one hand and S**T in the other and see which one fills up faster and that is what we got in our candidates a hand full of S**T” Notice I made CANDIDATES PLURAL which means all of them and that includes Trump.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at September 29, 2016 9:55 PM
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