Democrats & Liberals Archives

Adam,
As you know, the Gallup Poll is a tracking poll, a seven-day average. When that poll includes the most recent unemployment report, it will move in Obama’s favor. Generally speaking, I don’t like tracking polls; then again, one-day snap polls are suspect, too. Immediately after the debate, Rasmussen and other GOP pollsters poured out a number of one-day snap polls with the intention of moving the debate by creating a narrative.

RCP is better, but simply by including Rasmussen, a 1.2% GOP bias has been introduced. So personally, I find the best way to approach this stuff is to looks at an average of polls, but remain aware of organizations seeking to influence the results as a way of pushing a candidate.

7.3% unemployment is still a very bad number. It goes to show how far we have fallen when some people call that success.

We will see more of the real Obama and the real Romney in the next debates. I think Romney will again look better in reality while Obama looks worse.

But Democrats have it in the bag. Obama supporters should do what they like to do, drink beer, play the lottery, rest at home. Don’t bother to go out on November 6. Or for Democrats maybe they should show up at the polls on November 7 and complain that they were robbed.

C&J: “It goes to show how far we have fallen when some people call that success.”

Who calls this success? No one I see:

“While there is more work that remains to be done, today’s employment report [from the Labor Department] provides further evidence that the U.S. economy is continuing to heal from the wounds inflicted by the worst downturn since the Great Depression,” the chairman of Obama’s Council of Economic Advisers, Alan Krueger, said in a White House blog post. His comments were the administration’s first response to the jobs report.

Keys: Continuing to heal, more work to be done.

Phx8: “RCP is better, but simply by including Rasmussen, a 1.2% GOP bias has been introduced.”

I would never trust Rasmussen by itself to tell me the state of a race but I think the track record of mixing these polls shows a pretty good result. We gotta love how the right loves polls only when they show results that agree with how they feel the race should be going.

Who decided to pull our Chicago conspiracy team off of poll fixing and put them on unemployment number fixing? We need to hire more for our cloak and dagger unit - with better pay and lots of free govt health care.

Don’t worry JJ, Frank, and TomT - you’re still getting cheated. All is good.

Perhaps the obama supporters believed that a win by him was all but in the bag. I never once thought that was so, and never once thought that it was in the bag for Romney.

It reminds me of a football game tied in the last 2 minutes of the game and each team hoping to win with a field goal.

My hunch is that the Ryan/Biden debates will be a furious affair with no holds barred. I expect both to do well with the outside chance for a Biden flub that may make him look rather like a moron. One can hope.

The next Romney/obama debate should prove very interesting. I have read numerous reports by obama operatives about why obama seemed so unprepared in the first debate, and what they are doing to correct that for the second debate.

I believe that obama will perhaps be over prepared for the next debate and that could prove just as disastrous for him.

Reagan’s poor performance during his first debate with Carter was chalked up to too much preparation which didn’t allow Reagan to be Reagan.

We have seen obama being obama during the first debate. What will a hyper obama look and sound like? Will he attack and appear to some as being hostile? Not good! He will be defending his administrations record in foreign affairs. He has some worthy accomplishments and some not so worthy. I would give him a C+ in this department.

Romney has no record to defend on foreign affairs and is free to make new recommendations…obama doesn’t have the wiggle room to make new policy as he must defend what he has proposed and what has happened on his watch.

I will predict that round two of the Romney/obama debate will also go to Romney.

Should Romney win the second debate, I believe the polls will move more in his direction. A field goal win by Romney is what I expect. The House will remain in Rep hands by a considerable margin and the Senate will revert to Rep control. The stage will be set for a new broom in Washington. Much of the obama and dem excess of the past four years will be swept away. Confidence will be restored, and our economy will quickly grow and many more jobs will be created by the public sector.

Correction of my last sentence…”Private Sector.”

Royal Flush: “We have seen obama being obama during the first debate.”

This debate differed from any other debates Obama has had so why is it Obama being Obama? Most say Hillary won the debates against him but it wasn’t one sided. It depends on the debate format a little.

I think the most realistic reason for this given Obama’s better past performances is just that Obama’s been busy being President this time when before all he had to do was prepare.

“Should Romney win the second debate, I believe the polls will move more in his direction.”

So what happens if he loses?

When buy the fashion handbag, we need to consider many factors, today we will discuss three of these factors, shape, size and length.

Shape – next up is the shape of the bags, and by this we mean getting the shapes that will compliment the shape of your own body. The rule of thumb is to go for bags that are opposite to the features of your body. Slim and tall women will look good carrying rounded bags while shorter and curvier women should sport bags that have strong angles. Size – the size of the bags also matter so don’t go for bags that are too small if you are tall and avoid oversized ones if you are short in height. Length – the first essential aspect that you should look into before buying any handbag is their length. The length of your bags when you carry them will play a big role as far as aesthetics is concerned. If you are someone who has small hips, go for bags that go well on your hip length. Larger women should target bags that sit well around their waistline.

So when you go to buy the fashion handbag, think about these three factors, shape, size and length.

The left, from the MSM to the Hollywood crowd, have done their best to advise Obama where he went wrong. The problem is that the political talking points of the left sound good in front of a bunch of liberal college students or union workers, or even in a political add on TV; but a lie is still a lie and can’t be defended as the truth. Why didn’t Obama go after Romney; why didn’t he attack as the left wanted him to do? When Obama tried to use some of the talking points on Romney; Romney made him look like the incompetent idiot that he really is. Why didn’t Obama attack Romney with topics like the 47%; because he knew Romney would have made hiom look like a fool.

It will be the same with the debate on foreign affairs. Obama has such a bad record, he won’t be able to defend it. I would much rather be Romney than Obama in any of the debates. Re/the Ryan/Biden debate; Biden is a loose canon, this will be fun. Wait till Biden tells the audience that Obama is a “clean, articulate, back guy”.

I think the most realistic reason for this given Obama’s better past performances is just that Obama’s been busy being President this time when before all he had to do was prepare.

“Should Romney win the second debate, I believe the polls will move more in his direction.”

So what happens if he loses?
Posted by: Adam Ducker at October 8, 2012

Adam…obama has lost his former public speaking edge mainly because he has let it languish from non-use. He became dependent upon the teleprompter and I believe, was not presented with any challenges by his advisers which would require exercising his debating skills. He also held few press conferences in which the press challenged his policies and results.

If what you say is true, that obama is too busy being president to prepare, why will that change for the next debate?

When I say obama was being obama in the debate with Romney, I refer to his tendency to take the path of least resistance and expecting others to agree with him.

Sorry…I don’t believe for a second that his duties as president kept him from having time to properly prepare. It is known, from reading comments by his advisers, that he considered, and perhaps still does, Romney to be an unworthy adversary and one which he could easily dispatch. Obama is not known for his dedication to hard work and preparation. Much of his success in life seems to me, and perhaps to him, as merely deserved rather than worked for.

I have watched obama on the stump in front of an adoring audience. Even then, I have seen him flustered and off his game. My frank opinion is that obama is simply not willing to put in the work he should, to do and keep, his job as president.

Yon Cassius does not have “a lean and hungry look”.

You ask, what happens if Romney loses the next debate? Hard to say Adam, unless you can give me the reason for the loss, I can’t answer your question.

“If what you say is true, that obama is too busy being president to prepare, why will that change for the next debate?”

Because he knows if he does poorly a 2nd time he may be getting moving boxes for Christmas.

“Obama is not known for his dedication to hard work and preparation.”

How so? He’s admitted to being a slacker in his younger years but when someone questions either his intelligence or his work ethic I want to remind them that he graduated from Harvard Law school Magna Cum Laude. I guess maybe if he was a bit smarter and worked a bit harder he might have made Summa?

“Hard to say Adam, unless you can give me the reason for the loss, I can’t answer your question.”

For one thing he lied a great deal in the 1st debate. Let’s just say this time out Obama refuses to let him?

Regarding lies, Adam, fact check found both guilty of untruths. I don’t anticipate obama calling Romney a liar…that’s just too mean for most voters. He will need to convince the public with skilled oratory and I just don’t believe he is up to it. He could easily make a fool of himself attempting to disparage Romney…it’s a dangerous game. He must defend his record most of all and there…he is vulnerable.

Romney appears to be in top form and will respond to challenges of untruth with veracity and verve. And, this debate will center on foreign policy. If obama keeps coming back to domestic issues he will appear evasive. Romney does not have a record of foreign policy to defend…obama does. The Romney foreign policy speech given recently at VMI is being very well received.

The Republicans have consistently underestimated Obama. Is there some other reason Obama’s numbers are steady around fifty after all the kitchen sinks they’ve thrown his way?

Republicans are very good at letting any positive turn of events go to their heads.

Royal Flush: “Regarding lies, Adam, fact check found both guilty of untruths.”

True, but more so for Romney who lied about the deficit, lied about death panels, lied about folks who will lose their insurance under Obamacare, lied about whether his own plan covers pre-existing conditions, lied about green energy companies, lied about the decline in median household income, and lied again about cuts from medicare. This is what you call top form?

“Romney does not have a record of foreign policy to defend…obama does.”

Obama is perhaps strongest on the foreign policy front but the right thinks he looks weak because it’s a liberal leveraging US power instead of a conservative.

“The Republicans have consistently underestimated Obama. Is there some other reason Obama’s numbers are steady around fifty after all the kitchen sinks they’ve thrown his way?”

Bullshit Stephen, Obama and his worshippers have spent the last 6 months throwing everything they can at Romney. I have watched the ads; Romney has spoken of his message compared to Obama’s, and Obama’s ads are nothing more than personal attacks on Romney. Your comment is ignorant.

As far as underestimating; I don’t think so…conservatives have said from day one that Obama is in over his head. As I said before, it’s impossible to defend a lie. Obama and his surrogates have spent so much time telling false information on Romney; they actually believe it. Obama lost the debate because he had no answers…he could not defend his policies; the next day, when he was back on teleprompter and in front of a screaming crowd of worshippers, he was able to get back on track with false statements and with no opposition. Honestly Stephen, what do you think is going to happen when Romney begins to talk about Obama’s completely failed policy in Libya, resulting in the death of 4 Americans? Obama has no defense and again he will be seen as the rookie and Romney will look presidential.

The problem with you Stephen and your childhood playmate, Adam Ducker, is that you have no life experience. You think all America wants to live in this same make believe world you envision.

You think falsified employment numbers and a MSM, whose goal is to get Obama re-elected, are convincing Americans of another 4 years of failure. Falsified numbers don’t change the fact that every American knows someone out of work, that average family has dropped by thousands, that “Hope” is only a dream.

Do you guys have any concept of how ridiculous the defenders of Obama have sounded in their excuses why Obama lost the debate? He didn’t just lose, he sounded like a fool. And we still have you and Adam boasting of Obama’s college record (of which none of us has seen), and trying to tell us he is the most intelligent, articulate, and quick politician to ever live; and yet, at the same time expect us to believe Romney’s consistent barrage of “lies” completely stumped Obama. Give us a break.

Gas is almost $6 a gal in CA, and in 2008, on the stump, Obama blasted Bush for gas prices approaching $4. You will come back with your reasons why and will try to defend Obama, but guess what…American’s don’t care. All they know is how much they are paying at the pump and who is in charge.

Obama is in trouble and his campaign is in panic; the women are moving to Romney, Hispanics are moving to Romney, young people and Blacks are moving to Romney. Obama is dropping like a rock in the polls. This is not surprising; just because the Polls have shown Obama advantage over the months does not make it true. Romney has always been ahead, but the MSM have done their best to juggle the numbers…it’s been a lie, and Stephen, you and Adam Ducker have believed the lie because you are Obama worshippers.

You’re going to get a real dose of reality in a few weeks, and your opinions and predictions will be irrelevant. In fact you will be irrelevant.

Adam

Okay, it is not success. So we all agree that Obama has not succeeded. We often call that failing.

Re Polls - you have to choose. Meta analysis, i.e. averaging the polls, is a poor measure. Rassumsen has been more accurate in the past than most others.

But you guys have it in the bag anyway.

This is why the left is going to lose:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/twitter-explodes-after-black-actress-endorses-romney-as-the-only-choice-for-your-future/

The left has always presented themselves as the party of love, of encompassing all people, of the tolerant party; but this is an example of the left’s tolerance. Stacy Dash, a black actress, literally and viciously attacked for exercising her 1st amendment rights. I have often said; the most racist statements that have ever come against me personally have been from liberal democrats. The left has no tolerance of anyone who believes differently from themselves. How dare a black woman think for herself…therefore she is labled an “Uncle Tom”. What a sad party you defend.

This Stephen and Adam is your party of intolerance. America is learning what you represent; and your party is dying.

Frank: “Romney has always been ahead, but the MSM have done their best to juggle the numbers…it’s been a lie, and Stephen, you and Adam Ducker have believed the lie because you are Obama worshippers.”

Yes, the polls showing Obama still ahead are lies and the job reports showing the economy still improving are lies. Don’t trouble yourself with reality, Frank. Better just to believe what Rush Limbaugh tells you and keep on insisting we are the ones living in a bubble. Hilarious, Frank.

C&J: “Okay, it is not success. So we all agree that Obama has not succeeded. We often call that failing.”

I concede that by your design Obama has largely failed to meet the ever changing goals and expectations your side has laid out for him.

“But you guys have it in the bag anyway.”

How many times a week do you say that here? I don’t get it. Have you ever seen a Democrat thinking or saying this? So why do you keep saying it?

Adam,

“How many times a week do you say that here? I don’t get it. Have you ever seen a Democrat thinking or saying this? So why do you keep saying it?”

Seems to me the only people claiming to have it “in the bag” are those on the right.

Curiously though, they also are the people that are whining the most about the skewing of the polls. The cognitive dissonance from the right is breathtaking.

Rocky

Frank-
The difference between what we’ve thrown at Romney, and what Republicans have thrown at us, is most of what you’ve thrown at us is the product of a fevered imagination, psychotic stuff that requires Obama to support tribunals that kill learning disabled babies and ailing grandmothers, crap that requires Obama to be conspiring to send conservatives to concentration camps, while going door to door to confiscate everybody’s guns.

On other side of things, all we have to get people to believe is that Bain Capital profited off people getting laid off, companies being loaded with debt. All We need people to believe is that Romney’s made a habit of aggressively avoiding taxes, and that his 47% remarks reveal a deep seated elitism. It’s not difficult to get people to believe that Romney might end Medicare as we know it, given who he chose as running mate, and what his offered policy in the debates were.

See, our allegations are actually plausible, often using the candidate’s own words against them in a reasonable interpretation of what they were saying.

See, you guys just say **** for effect. You talk of Obama’s totally failed Libya policy. Saying “totally failed” feels good, doesn’t it?

But it’s wrong. Obama’s policy was to intervene to prevent a human rights disaster in Benghazi and elsewhere as Qaddafi moved in with his army. As Benghazi remains standing, and its people not dead in streets flowing with blood, and as Qaddafi is dead as a doornail, I’m not quite sure where the complete failure comes in. Sure, there’s work to be done, and the recent violence is not a positive development. But compared to Bush’s invasion of Iraq, it’s a bloodless defeat of a dictator, as far as Americans are concerned, and the Libyan’s own their own revolution.

And this:

The problem with you Stephen and your childhood playmate, Adam Ducker, is that you have no life experience. You think all America wants to live in this same make believe world you envision.

All the “life experience” in the world doesn’t keep you from being spectacularly wrong, once again. Again, you’re just saying **** for effect. I don’t know him, he doesn’t know me, and neither of us have to know each other to come to a common opinion about matters. You know what I like about him? He makes arguments based on real data. He’s not simply running at the mouth about things.

You think falsified employment numbers and a MSM, whose goal is to get Obama re-elected, are convincing Americans of another 4 years of failure. Falsified numbers don’t change the fact that every American knows someone out of work, that average family has dropped by thousands, that “Hope” is only a dream.

Falsified. Bother to prove that, or are you once again just saying **** just for the effect? Really, you have a brilliant role model in Mitt Romney. I wonder whether you thought there was some kind of conspiracy going when job numbers weren’t so favorable for Obama. Let me answer that: no, you didn’t. Why? Because you have a fully deployed conservative media bias, which lets you dismiss any news that looks good for Obama.

The jobs report doesn’t erase Obama’s debate performance, but your conspiracy theories don’t invalidate the jobs report. I can’t help that people didn’t think Obama didn’t do well in the debate.

You can’t help the fact that, yes, the economy continues to get better under Obama, and if you don’t watch out, that might encourage people to keep Obama in office to get credit for it!

Your arguments for Romney, and against Obama are all adjective based. You state the Obama is these bad things, then state that Romney is all these good things, and really, nothing substantial gets summoned to support either.

Meanwhile, we have the jobs report, we have the fact that the people in Benghazi are alive and Qadaffi is dead, and you can’t do a damn thing except run off at the mouth to deny those realities. Worse yet, you ignore signs that people in Libya actually fought on our side, and pursued those who attacked us, or who aided or abbetted them. Nice, refreshing change from the anti-Americanism your party’s policies inflicted on us.

Ultimately, there’s only so much reality you can talk away, and only for so long. These job numbers show that your doomsaying about the economy is rapidly becoming irrelevant to the reality. That’s what you’re afraid of.

Romney ahead by almost 4% in some polls. Unskewed probably means he’s leading by 30 points now!

Frank: “The problem with you Stephen and your childhood playmate, Adam Ducker, is that you have no life experience.”

You’re old as dirt, we get it.

Adam,

Perhaps what Frank doesn’t understand is that it’s not about the age, it’s about the miles.

Rocky

Mr. Daugherty wrote; “It’s not difficult to get people to believe that Romney might end Medicare as we know it, given who he chose as running mate, and what his offered policy in the debates were.”

In an Opinion piece in today’s NY Times, David Brooks wrote…

“Today, Medicare costs about $550 billion. By 2020, according to the Congressional Budget Office, it will cost more than $1 trillion, sucking money away from every other government program.

According to the Urban Institute, the average couple in 2010 had paid $109,000 in Medicare taxes during their working years but would be able to receive about $343,000 in benefits.

Basically, there are two ways to reduce Medicare inflation, through the political system or through a market system. Obamacare tries the former. The current budget projections are so bad because almost no one outside the employ of the president believes this approach will reduce Medicare costs. Obama’s primary cost-control instrument is an independent board of experts that Mitt Romney mentioned often in last week’s debate. It’s supposed to lower payment levels.

The history of Medicare is strewed with efforts to control costs by controlling prices. The results are terrible. The second approach is to replace the fee-for-service system with more normal market incentives. Give recipients a choice among insurance options and have providers compete to offer comprehensive coverage like today’s Medicare.

My bottom line is this: The status quo is cataclysmic. The national debt problem is a Medicare problem. The Democrats’ price-control approach has little chance of working.

The Romney-Ryan approach might work. If it doesn’t, the federal budget would suffer but seniors wouldn’t. Today’s seniors would be left untouched anyway, and tomorrow’s would have the option of private plans or traditional Medicare. At worst, if the market approach flopped, we’d be back to where we started.

If we don’t get Medicare right, there’s no money for anything else. On this particular policy issue, the Republicans have the edge.”

“How many times a week do you say that here? I don’t get it. Have you ever seen a Democrat thinking or saying this?” So why do you keep saying it?”

Posted by: Adam Ducker at October 9, 2012 11:40 AM

Adam, you really are a silly child. Less than 2 weeks ago, your side was quoting the polls, including you Adam, as a done deal for Obama. Why do you think you and I ever got started talking about polls; because you have bought into the huge leads that Obama had. It was a fraud, a joke, and you Adam as well as the rest of the flaming left on WB have bought into it hook, line, and sinker. Try to wrap your infantile mind around this…Obama was never in the lead. It was a fake, fraud, lie, etc. But here is what your side was saying less than 2 weeks ago:

“This Election Is Already Over - Obama Has Won”

“There’s another poll out today showing President Obama with a nine point lead in Ohio. That’s the fifth poll in a row showing him with a larger than a five point lead. The Quinnipiac University/CBS News/New York Times poll that came out last week had him with a ten point lead.

No Republican has ever won the presidency without winning Ohio. Plus, whoever has won Ohio has won the last 11 presidential races. Ten point leads aren’t small, they’re gigantic.

Here’s my new favorite fact: whoever is leading two weeks after the last convention has never relinquished the lead in the last 15 presidential elections. It’s way past two weeks since the last convention and President Obama doesn’t have a small lead, he has a huge lead.

This thing is over. The rest is just running out the clock. In fact, I already called it on our Current show last Wednesday.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/obama-polls-lead_b_1927955.html

“Frank-
The difference between what we’ve thrown at Romney, and what Republicans have thrown at us, is most of what you’ve thrown at us is the product of a fevered imagination, psychotic stuff that requires Obama to support tribunals that kill learning disabled babies and ailing grandmothers, crap that requires Obama to be conspiring to send conservatives to concentration camps, while going door to door to confiscate everybody’s guns.”

Stephen, I don’t believe I have ever met such a Dumbass as you. Who ran the ads showing Paul Ryan throwing grandma off the cliff? This is simple to answer; the Obama people have run the political ads attacking Romney for every vile thing; and when Obama was made to look like an idiot at the debate, your side has asked Obama, “why didn’t you attack Romney on all the things from the ads?” Answer…HELLO STEPHEN…ANYONE IN THERE….THEY WERE LIES and Obama knew he didn’t have anything but talking points.

So here we go again Stephen, don’t disappoint us:

“On other side of things, all we have to get people to believe is that Bain Capital profited off people getting laid off, companies being loaded with debt. All We need people to believe is that Romney’s made a habit of aggressively avoiding taxes, and that his 47% remarks reveal a deep seated elitism. It’s not difficult to get people to believe that Romney might end Medicare as we know it, given who he chose as running mate, and what his offered policy in the debates were.

See, our allegations are actually plausible, often using the candidate’s own words against them in a reasonable interpretation of what they were saying.”

Okay Mr. Plausible, why didn’t Obama use them??? Because Obama is not as big a Dumbass as you are. It’s a shame you weren’t debating for Obama.

Re/your comments on Benghazi: drivel, bullshit, you have no idea what you are talking about and you are trying to sound intelligent. By the way, you are failing. I haven’t heard Obama defending his record with your make believe talking points.

Re/false employment numbers; Stephen, why should I try to discuss the estimating, and household surveys that make up the ever changing BLS numbers with a dumbass? You can read the material for yourself:

http://www.redstate.com/2012/10/05/why-todays-bls-jobs-numbers-make-no-sense/

Re/Adam Ducker’s comments on my age; well I’ll tell you Mr. Ducker, I’m old enough to not get sucked into the “utopian society” you believe in…I spent my time as a Democrat and changed parties when I was about 4-5 years younger than you are now, and I have never looked back. Your utopian society has destroyed the middle-class, placed 1/6th of America on foodstamps, and devastated the black community.

Let me give you guys another thought; the birth rate in America is down again for the 4th year in a row. Why is it down during Obama’s reign?

Can’t you feel the love from the left?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxDzPyd4XX0&feature=youtu.be

The problem with you Stephen and your childhood playmate, Adam Ducker, is that you have no life experience

Adam, you really are a silly child.

Hey WB moderator, these constant personal attacks by Frank definitely deserve a moment of your attention. When are you going to lower the hammer on this blatantly immature and trollish horsesh*t?

Adrienne, I don’t think Frank’s comments rise to the vulgar language used by you when the WB manager had to rebuke you. Remember?

Royal, the lefts goal isn’t to reduce Medicare costs, it is to force a universal government plan on all of us.
The ACA will force more people onto the government dime, taxes will be raised to try and compensate, then the left will promise “free” health care.

The Obama surrogates of the left wing hate media already have their drones believing they are entitled to have somebody else pay for their health care.

Also look for the left wing hate media to ramp up the lies a hundred fold to counter the latest polls.

I’m hoping Obama does much better in the next debate since the last one was a very poor showing. This time he shouldn’t let Romney get away with the constant streams of obvious lies and continual flip-floppery.

On the other hand, I wouldn’t like to see Obama be as frothingly aggressive and outrageously rude towards the moderator when he does call Romney out. Jim Lehrer claims he didn’t mind Romney’s assh*lishness and his own personal humiliation and lack of being-in-charge of those proceedings — but he should have minded that. Romney acted like he thought he was the CEO: talking over and interupting Lehrer, totally ignoring him, steam-rollering the debate format entirely.
I found all of that incredibly annoying. Reminded me a lot of what Palin did to Gwen Ifill in the last vice presidential debate. Anyone remember that? How she just ignored her questions and yammered on the topics she wanted to talk about? Maybe they don’t care or think anyone will notice, but Republicans seem to think they can act like mannerless fools because that’s what they believe will make them look “strong.”

It doesn’t. Instead, it only makes them look mannerless, clueless, and rudely over-aggressive.
I blame Conservative Talking-Head Haters/Fox News. That’s the kind of moronic, socially dysfunctional behavior they’ve long promoted on radio and television, and it’s a bad example to set for our people.

Adam, you list three things that at this moment you believe could potentially harm Romney’s poll numbers. Could this news be another (when placed on top of all the other slimy and shady dealings people know about. You know, like him making money off of abortion waste disposal?)?: Romney’s Bain Made Millions On Big Tobacco In U.S., Russia
Big Tobacco is not exactly as family friendly as his promotion of Staples Office Supplies. And, it happens to be completely against the tenants of Joseph Smith and the cult of Mormon — yet he’s supposed to be a high ranking “bishop” in the “church.”

Adrienne, I don’t think Frank’s comments rise to the vulgar language used by you when the WB manager had to rebuke you. Remember?

Oh, I think personal attacks are far worse than a bit of cursing. And if I can be called out and have my posts deleted for the latter, Frank should certainly be called out and have his posts deleted for the former.

Adrienne,

“Big Tobacco is not exactly as family friendly as his promotion of Staples Office Supplies. And, it happens to be completely against the tenants of Joseph Smith and the cult of Mormon — yet he’s supposed to be a high ranking “bishop” in the “church.” “

I worked for a Mormon family restaurant back in the ’80s and while they didn’t smoke or drink coffee, or coke, they didn’t have any problem selling these items to those that would buy them.

Romney investing or even selling tobacco isn’t really that shocking.

Rocky

Royal, the lefts goal isn’t to reduce Medicare costs, it is to force a universal government plan on all of us.

Personally, I hope so. I’d like to see Medicare costs be reduced, AND I’d like nothing better than to see this country move toward universal healthcare the way that almost every other first world country has.

Romney investing or even selling tobacco isn’t really that shocking.

LOL! I just realized I previously wrote “tenants of Joseph Smith”, instead of “tenets of Joseph Smith.” What’s funny about that is that Mormons have always had to pay out a lot of “rent” just like a tenant in order to hold any kind of position in that “faith.”

kctim,

Nobody who supports universal, single payer health insurance or other variant believes that it is “free.”

What supporters understand is that it is a more efficient approach to financing health insurance and controlling health care expenditures.

Why don’t we just have an all out attack on Romney’s religion? Mormonism is not really popular in America and an attack on his religion would take the voter’s minds off Obama’s weak debate.

Adrienne is right, Romney lied about everything and Obama just stood there and took it. He needs to go on the attack and nail Romney on Bain and whatever. I don’t really understand why he didn’t defend himself. It was almost like he was high or something.

“Oh, I think personal attacks are far worse than a bit of cursing.”

Would someone please inform this writer that there is a difference between “cursing” and foul language. Even an atheist should understand this difference.

Frank: “Try to wrap your infantile mind around this…Obama was never in the lead. It was a fake, fraud, lie, etc.”

No, I cannot wrap my head around your ridiculous, paranoid delusions. I just can’t. I have too much respect for reality.

Romney has never lead until now. He leads because of his strong showing in the debate and because most of his decline was wrapped up in a couple of news cycles that made him look bad but have since passed.

Adrienne calls for mods to take note of your personal attacks and perhaps even delete them but I’m fine with them. Let’s see more of them even. I want everyone here to read every single fact free thing you’ve ever written and take note of how you have no rebuttal but personal attacks and slurs.

You have two choices as far as I can tell: You can argue politics based on logic and verifiable information, or you can keep doing what you’re doing now which is the exact opposite of that. The first one closely mirrors what the rest of us do here for fun in our spare time. The other just makes you look like a complete fool and a laughingstock.

Bill, desperate people do desperate things. I will not be surprised if obama, in his desperation, takes a whack at Romney’s religion. The American voter will really love it when a sitting president shows religious intolerance.

As for Bain…I hope obama does try to make that a negative for Romney. He won’t…he’s simply not that dumb.

According to obama, he was high on something in his younger days so there is a precedent.

Adam

Ever changing goals? Is it too much to ask for unemployment lower than 7.8% and economic growth at least reaching the average of the last fifty years? In other downturns, we bounced back faster.

Re – “in the bag” – I originally wrote this in response to the bragging going on in this column over the high poll numbers of Obama. Of course, that may soon stop and when it does so will I.

Actually, however, I encourage those who feel that voting is too hard or too much trouble to follow their feelings and stay home. I am sick of trying to convince the stupid and lazy to exercise their right to vote or claiming that I think it is okay for some idiot who hasn’t read a book in his whole life to negate my vote, or yours for that matter. They have the right vote and I do not propose to take that away. I don’t have to try to make it easier. It is a little partisan of me. I believe that the dumber and lazier voters will vote mostly Democratic. You may disagree and if you are right and I am wrong their staying home will not affect the result, so join me in letting the dullards off the hook.

Re religion

The reason some people attack Mormonism and leave Islam alone is the same reason animal rights activists toss paint on old ladies in fur coats but steer clear of motorcycle gangs wearing leather.

Consider the recent outcry about a film that nobody saw. Our leaders felt it necessary to condemn this film. Meanwhile “the Book of Mormon” gets to ridicule that religion every day.

If Adrienne applied her same standards to Islam as she does to Mormons, she would be castigated by her fellow liberals and perhaps in danger from the weirdos.

Damn…it’s all over, Obama wins. The HuffPost reported today…

Underwear Sales Increase, Suggesting A Rebounding Economy

Off topic, but does anyone know what Mitt Romney’s position is on housing? Does he believe that the federal government has any role, or does he believe it should get out of the way and let the free market do it’s thing.

The reason I’m asking is bcause I live in Illinois and we have a congressman named Joe Walsh who has repeatedly said that the federal government should get out of housing completely.

He has said that the govt. should not be in the business of home ownership. Just wondering if Mitt Romney feels the same way.

“No, I cannot wrap my head around your ridiculous, paranoid delusions. I just can’t. I have too much respect for reality.

Romney has never lead until now. He leads because of his strong showing in the debate and because most of his decline was wrapped up in a couple of news cycles that made him look bad but have since passed.”

Adam, you say I have “ridiculous, paranoid delusions” simply because I say Romney has always been ahead in the polls, but were skewed to make it look like Obama is ahead. But you can accept a PEW Poll 12 point swing as something that just happened over the past 2 weeks. Or perhaps The Washington Times/Zogby Poll which has dissolved an Obama 9 point lead over the same period. Or the 8 point swing in VA. In fact, Romney is jumping ahead of Obama in all the polls, in the past week, and I guess, by your standards, it’s nothing more than chance. I believe you are the delusional one.

Royal, it is an increase in the sale of Mormon underwear. Romney has made Mormon underwear all the rage.

Would someone please inform this writer that there is a difference between “cursing” and foul language.

Hilarious. There isn’t actually any difference between cursing and foul language! They’re one and the same thing — and for some of us there are definitely times when they seem extremely appropriate and necessary.

Even an atheist should understand this difference.

Oh I see what you’re doing. You have to try to take a dig at my rational non-theist stance since I dared to call out the Crazy Cult of Cash-Register Mormonism. A cult that Mitt Romney and all of his ancestors were gullibly and idiotically duped into following so many moons ago.

But you know, I’m willing to bet that it secretly bothers a lot of you conservative Christians that Mitt Romney, potentially the next president of the United States actually believes in a religious cult that Joseph Smith made up by claiming he was a divine prophet (who told his followers that his divinity was a rank above that of Jesus); when in fact Smith was an obvious confidence man, a side-show charlatan, and a sexual pervert who wanted to sleep with tons of women, married and unmarried, old and young — and so decided to call that sex holy and an order handed down from the God of the Planet Kolob!

I’ll bet quite a few you sometimes think about how Mitt prays to a guy named Joe Smith from upstate New York. A man who managed to dupe a whole lot of people into believing in tons of messianic nonsense that he clearly made up out of whole cloth. With wild made-up fairy tales about the Planet Kolob, and Golden Plates that nobody ever saw, and an angel called Moroni, and racist religious wars that took place in America between good white tribes of people and evil black tribes of people (the black folks lost the war, naturally), that The New Jerusalem of Mormonism ended up being located in many places (basically wherever the cult moved next before being kicked out): first there was Kirtland, Ohio that was the holy land, oh but then it was really Jackson County, Missouri, oh but then it had to be Nauvoo, Illinois, and oh finally it was the Salt Lake Valley in Utah!
And that all of this total madness began when in the 1830’s when a guy who had been a failure as a farmer threw a couple of “seer stones” into his hat, stuck his head into it, and proceeded to “dictate divine revelations” that became much of the blatant gobbledegook that makes up the Book of Mormon.

Gobbledegook that Mitt Romney actually claims to believe!

I’ve just got this sense that all of this disturbing nonsense must bother you deeply. Hence, you feel you must make attacks on people who are simply too rational and level headed to play along when people insist that a charlatan cult leader who started a clear-cut money-making cult like Mormonism should rightfully be considered an actual “religion” that everyone must respect and take seriously.

Frank: “…you say I have ‘ridiculous, paranoid delusions’ simply because I say Romney has always been ahead in the polls, but were skewed to make it look like Obama is ahead.”

Yes, I do.

“But you can accept a PEW Poll 12 point swing as something that just happened over the past 2 weeks.”

If you mean the 8% Pew lead that poll was from September 16th, almost 4 weeks. The change in the RCP average over that time is only 3 percentage points.

“…and I guess, by your standards, it’s nothing more than chance.”

Nothing more than chance? Are you even bothering to read what I write before you tell me how wrong it is? It’s not chance at all. Romney has pulled ahead because he had a strong debate performance.

“In fact, Romney is jumping ahead of Obama in all the polls, in the past week…”

True, but Rasmussen is out today with the race tied again suggesting Romney’s bounce might be fading already.

Adrienne-
I don’t have any particular animus towards Mormons. If they believe wierd things, it’s not much wierder than what I believe as a confirmed Catholic.

I don’t believe in the funky crystal animism of new agers, nor in the vengeful God that some of my fundamentalist brethren do. What I do believe is that I benefitted from the freedom of religion, and that decision belongs to a person him or herself.

I would say that on this political blog, there’s not much point in getting into religion as a political disqualifier, since there’s no religious test, and we all have freedom of religion. Oppose him on policy grounds, but don’t go poking people in the eye for their personal beliefs. You will rarely prove to a believer of the faith that what they believe in is absurd.

I don’t care about Romney’s Mormonism, any more than I care about Harry Reid’s. That’s his own burden to figure out. I believe another thing as well: as I call for religious tolerance and acceptance that our nation’s a secular republic, I need to keep a consistent position of letting people figure out for themselves what their faith is, so I’m not going to say, don’t let Mormons into office, or bring their religion into a political debate.

Also, it doesn’t pay to respond to these fellows with equal venom. You don’t elevate yourself, you only debase the argument. I bite back my share of the “Go F Yourself” responses, because I want to fight back with my reason and logic, not give in to their provocation. I want to prove myself stronger. Call me competitive, call me idealistic, both sides of my personality factor in.

Royal Flush-
You can’t make the math work so that people retain the same benefits. Your policy gets its savings from simply letting the voucher float free of core inflation, not to mention the much faster medical inflation numbers.

The question is not whether we need to do something, the question is what the real benefit of doing things your way is, and it seems the main benefit is to gut medicare and let the insurance companies who have proven incapable of controlling costs feast on the entrails. Solving the problem of financing Medicare without maintaining coverage for those under its auspices is not acceptable.

Frank-
Obama maintains a lead in Ohio, even when you screen for the likely voters. That’s not a victory in the bag, it’s simply a reality you don’t want to persist to election day, when it will basically close off most routes to 270 for Romney.

Cenk can say what he wants, and it won’t be my first disagreement with him. :-)

It’s funny how you segue into discussing how unfair commercials have been, rather than admit that Republicans have used the death panels and “Obama’s coming to get you/your guns” arguments. It’s like you’re pretending Glenn Beck never existed! You can call me a dumbass, but those are your party’s arguments, and looking at reality, they are bizarre, paranoid schizophrenically bad.

It’s not simply a question of whether we’ve gone after Romney. If you’re saying we shouldn’t be doing that, then I think you take me more for a naif than a dumbass, because unless your guy suddenly decided to run a completely positive campaign, that would be the height of stupidity. Your problem is much of what we would say about Romney is true.

Truth is what matters here, no matter how fiercely you fling your insults at me. Truth endures. Or maybe the videos that keep on popping up showing Romney saying things he later denies.

Okay Mr. Plausible, why didn’t Obama use them??? Because Obama is not as big a Dumbass as you are. It’s a shame you weren’t debating for Obama. Re/your comments on Benghazi: drivel, bullshit, you have no idea what you are talking about and you are trying to sound intelligent. By the way, you are failing. I haven’t heard Obama defending his record with your make believe talking points. Re/false employment numbers; Stephen, why should I try to discuss the estimating, and household surveys that make up the ever changing BLS numbers with a dumbass? You can read the material for yourself:

http://www.redstate.com/2012/10/05/why-todays-bls-jobs-numbers-make-no-sense/

Because Obama’s first political instinct is to argue from fact, not against character. He hit Romney just fine on the mathematic implausibility of his budget numbers. If you’re saying Obama was too defensive, fine, but if you’re saying Obama didn’t use them, therefore they’re not valid points, then that’s just fallacy. Besides, he’s used them in plenty of TV commercials, and if called on the 47% comment in particular, Obama can simply appeal to the tape, which remains posted.

As for unemployment numbers, the simple fact is that getting back to 7.8 is symbolic, and a boost to Obama. You can talk about suspicions, but you seem to have a rather flagrant, rather obvious conflict of interest in bashing the BLS numbers.

As for Benghazi? There’s nothing make believe about Qadaffi’s violence against his own people, nor the danger they were under. There’s also nothing pretend about the fact that Qadaffi is dead. How these are make-believe talking points is baffling to me. These are self-evident points.

The facts seemt to be a casualty of your arguments. If ignoring them is the product of your deep life experience, I hope and pray that I take a better path than you have, such that you feel ignoring basic underlying facts is justified.

Obama can’t just flip a switch on the economy and make it better, and those peddle the notion that this recession should recover like the other recessions ignore that this isn’t like those other recessions.

Stephen

I bet if Romney is elected the economy starts to recover much like it has in all those other historical downturns. We are now in the pits not in spite of but because of Obama’s best efforts.

I know how much the left hates to hear the name Rush Limbaugh, but it’s easy to check his archives; 4 years ago, when Obama began pushing Obamacare, Rush made the statement that corporations would hold on to their money and there would be no recovery. The reason…uncertainty. 20 Million viewers and on the air for 20 years. Stephen and Adam Ducker can’t even convince anyone to listen to their bullshit for 1 day on WB.

Oh, I am so looking forward to Election Day in November. The leftist are unable to see the handwriting on the wall. I have repeatedly said the leftist, socialist media has done their best to get Obama reelected and have used skewed polls as part of their strategy. I will go further than that; I believe Obama is going to suffer a Carter loss and Romney is going to have a Reagan victory.

You ignorant leftist; the gains of Romney and the losses of Obama are more than polls; it’s about everything Obama has done. He works against the American people and the funny thing is, he told the American people he was going to shaft them 4 years ago. High energy costs, shut down coal mines gas and oil rigs, increased cost of HC insurance, inflation, $6 a gallon gas, a failing Mid-East policy, and now we have illegal campaign funds from foreigners making their way into the Obama coffers. Do you honestly think the American people want 4 more years of this imbecile?

The only thing that will shut up the ignorance of SD and AD is an Obama loss of great magnitude.

C&J: “I bet if Romney is elected the economy starts to recover much like it has in all those other historical downturns.”

That’s nice since it will probably grow at the same rate next year no matter who wins in November. That makes it easy for you folks to pretend Romney magically saved us.

Frank: “The only thing that will shut up the ignorance of SD and AD is an Obama loss of great magnitude.”

It could happen. It’s just not very likely. Most likely the winner will be by 1 or 2 percentage points and that margin will give the winner Ohio or Florida or both. It could be Romney. Obama still has the advantage right now though. It will take more than a strong debate to change that.

“…the leftist, socialist media has done their best to get Obama reelected and have used skewed polls as part of their strategy…”

And what about the Fox News and Rasmussen polls that showed Obama ahead until today? Are they skewed? Are they? Are they part of the leftist, socialist media? Let’s hear it, Frank.

“Oh, I am so looking forward to Election Day in November.”

Me too. It may be best if Obama loses. I’d hate to see what happens to all those that are as divorced from reality as you are. It could get messy. I know I can handle a loss. Can you?

I would say that on this political blog, there’s not much point in getting into religion as a political disqualifier, since there’s no religious test, and we all have freedom of religion.

I guess you don’t see any irony in this, but I do. Because you’re speaking only for those who ARE religious and do not see that there is never any freedom FROM religion for people who are non-theist in America. People like me.
And, there is indeed a religious test in this country — Americans ARE expected to pass that test. In this blog, and all over this nation, and to be elected to American government.
Non-theists like myself grasp that there is wholesale permission among religious believers of all faiths to insult non-theists. We are rejected for our lack of religion and the proof of that is the fact that we can not be elected, and thus have never had representation in American government.

So what you say is wrong. Very clearly in America, one HAS to claim they have a religion in order to be considered acceptable and electable: a religious test. One can lie and claim they are religious when in reality they aren’t I suppose, and I’m sure that’s probably been the case many times. But non-theists can’t be truthful and state it plainly.
In fact, it is obvious that someone can even be a blatant and pathological liar like Mitt Romney definitely is, and can claim that he prays to a traitorous, money-grubbing charlatan and sexual pervert like Joe Smith from upstate New York and still pass the religious test. As long as there is belief in a deity — even a crazy, crooked and clearly false one — an American can officially make that grade.

What an American cannot do is admit that they don’t believe in any religious deity or made up fairy tales, and one is immediately deemed unacceptable and unelectable.

So don’t lecture me, or try to claim there is total religious freedom, or say that thoughts on religion can’t be a political disqualifier in America, because it most definitely is.

Oppose him on policy grounds, but don’t go poking people in the eye for their personal beliefs. You will rarely prove to a believer of the faith that what they believe in is absurd.

Have you ever read the Book of Mormon? I suspect many people haven’t — and that this is why they treat them like it’s a religion. I have read it — therefore I do feel very free to poke at that cult. The transparent lies and utter nonsense written in that book ARE completely absurd. It is because I know with absolute certainty that it is a crazy and dangerous, misogynistic and racist cult that I must say so plainly. I cannot and will not be silent about it.

The reason this seems to be an important topic to discuss is because Mitt Romney happens a high ranking bishop in the cult. Were he not, I might not be as willing to speak out about it. But since he is, the cult of Mormon (what they believe, and the way they have always operated) automatically becomes part of the political discussion in my view.

Btw, I also don’t think that conservatives have thought through all of the ramifications of electing a Mormon candidate. The fact is, they’re always claiming that America is “a Christian nation,” however a large number of Christian denominations will not recognize Mormons as Christians (and rightfully so, since Mormons are not monotheists, they are polytheistic. They believe that all male Mormons actually have the ability to become Gods).
Makes me wonder if conservative Christians have ever paused to consider that if Mitt Romney is elected, he will not be sworn in by putting his hand on the precious bible they consider so totally crucial to American government. No, in that event, Romney’s hand will surely be placed on the laughably bogus, crazy made-up Book of Mormon. In fact, it might well be placed upon Crazy Old Joe Smith’s own personal copy of cobbled together BS.

Adam

Whomever the American people choose is the best candidate.

Of course, I think Romney should win. But whoever wins, I hope it is by at least a couple percentage points. It does nobody an good when we get those arguments about legitimacy.

We should all here resolve that we will put politics in its proper place. We have the right and the duty to oppose policies and politicians we think are wrong. However, we need to support our president in his legitimate duties.

I think it was wrong when Rush Limbaugh said that he wanted Obama to fail. But he could have rightly said that he thought that the Obama policies were wrong and that they should not endure. There is a subtle but key difference. We all want our country to succeed but we disagree in what direction we should go.

I believe that many Obama policies have retarded our recovery. I think that policies followed by Holder are racist. I am afraid that Obama’s foreign policy is a bit misguided. I want our country to succeed, but I do not believe these are the way to go.

You probably hold similar but opposed views. Both of us are wrong in details and it is the strength of our democratic system that in the conflict of ideas we come up with something better than either of us would have achieved independently.

Adrienne

Religion is a basic value of most Americans. It informs their decisions, often in good ways. Some people make fun of it when people ask “what Jesus would do” but that is a great way to ground oneself to moral beliefs.

Atheists may not believe in God. Theists think that the non-belief in God is a lot like choosing not to believe in the weather. They also fear that someone not tethered to a belief is a higher power might be untethered to morality in general.

I understand that you disagree with these beliefs, but you should try to understand them as a way of understanding a majority of your fellow Americans.

It doesn’t help your cause when you make what appears to believers to be crazy attacks on religion. It depends on your goal, I suppose. If you goal is to vent your anger and demonstrate hatred, you have succeeded. If you goal is to convince people to alter their beliefs or behaviors, you fail miserably. It is very easy to dismiss what you are saying because of the way you say it.

You will probably think this is a personal attack and dismiss it, probably deploy vulgarity. But I ask you to think about this. What I wrote above is very reasonable. If you react with anger to something like this, imagine how your words much more strident words must affect those who disagree with you.

C&J:

I couldn’t agree more. I can’t say what I’ll believe in the future given different circumstances or personal beliefs but I still consider Obama, a liberal candidate, to be the best option for the country compared to Mitt Romney. It’s easy to forget we agree on more than we disagree because it’s no fun for long to outline where we agree but I prefer to dig at what makes us different and why.

“And what about the Fox News and Rasmussen polls that showed Obama ahead until today? Are they skewed? Are they? Are they part of the leftist, socialist media? Let’s hear it, Frank.”

Adam, I listen to cable TV Fox News, MSNBC, and CNN; I don’t listen to the big 3 TV news channels. Many times I have seen CNN and MSNBC have panel discussions with NO opposition, on the other hand, Fox News claims to be fair and balanced. They always have opposing views. Their political discussion panels are always made up of people from both sides. So I have no idea what you are talking about when you name Fox News. Perhaps you could give us an example of how Fox News is biased?

Re/Rasmussen; Rasmussen, for the past several elections has had the most accurate record of polls. Recently, even though the rest of the polls are all of a sudden now moving toward Romney, Rasmussen has always had Romney and Obama almost even within the margin of error. You are biased against Rasmussen because they have always shown a tight race and you are biased against Fox News because they are willing to say the things about Obama that is off subject with the liberal MSM.

You hate Rush Limbaugh…why…because he tells things the liberal MSM won’t touch. You do realize that Rush Limbaugh has been shown to be 99% right all the time by the Sullivan Group in Sacramento?

You hate the Drudge Report…why…Drudge makes no comments on news; he simply gathers information and makes it accessable to those who visit his site. The news that the liberal MSM will not touch.

“My people perish for lack of knowledge” fits the mind of a liberal. Meaning, if you bury your head in the sand and don’t hear the news, it doesn’t really happen.

If you are trying to say the leftist MSM has not done everything in their power to get Obama re-elected; then I must say, you are blind.

The real problem for the left is that there was a day when the only news sources were the big 3 on TV; before your time. But today, the big three mean nothing. They are has beens; the major liberal news papers are going out of business. They were bought and paid for by the left. I bet it just irks you that people now have the ability to find information without the need to go to the liberal media.

Tell me Adam, of all the successes your side likes to tout that Obama has had, why didn’t he talk about them in the debate?

“Personally, I hope so. I’d like to see Medicare costs be reduced, AND I’d like nothing better than to see this country move toward universal healthcare the way that almost every other first world country has.”

Which is the difference between left and right, you and I, Adrienne: I don’t believe in forcing my desires and beliefs onto others.
And while other first world countries may have government provided and controlled health care and the extremely high taxes to pay for it, they do not have what makes us THE greatest first world nation, our individual rights and freedoms.

Rich
Many supporters of government health care believe it will be “free,” and for many it will be free. Government controlled health care will only lead to an even larger lack of personal responsibility.

What supporters don’t understand is that money does not trump rights. Supporters laziness to actually help others or their desire to purchase the latest and greatest, is not a valid excuse for us to simply toss away the principles this country was founded on.

Frank: “Perhaps you could give us an example of how Fox News is biased?”

One example is their breathless reporting of the 7.8% unemployment as a fudged number. There are no facts to back that up, it’s a complete fantasy. It’s not news, it’s propaganda. That’s all you ever get from Fox News. You don’t notice because you breathlessly repeat these lies yourself. You may even believe them yourself, sadly.

“Rasmussen has always had Romney and Obama almost even within the margin of error.”

They are close polls, I agree. But what about Fox News who had Obama up 5% the week before the debate? How do you explain that away if you’re arguing Obama has never lead Romney?

“You hate Rush Limbaugh…why…because he tells things the liberal MSM won’t touch.”

He’s a liar. End of story.

“You do realize that Rush Limbaugh has been shown to be 99% right all the time by the Sullivan Group in Sacramento?”

Limbaugh told you that joke, right?

“You hate the Drudge Report…”

I don’t hate it. It’s just that sites don’t become popular with conservatives for being accurate or true. They become popular because every single thing they do props up a right wing world view land the same way that Andrew Breitbart’s work did, and David Barton’s work still does. You don’t want the truth, you want to hear people who agree with you and use those people as evidence you are right. The foundation for your thinking is built on lies, Frank.

Adrienne, we do not have a right to be free FROM religion to the extent that others cannot believe in what they want and to talk about what they choose to believe. We are not ruled by any religion and there is no grand conspiracy to force us to believe. We don’t need an atheist to be represented any more than you need a chick to truly represent you or I need a white dude to truly represent me.

You know, I have also read the Book of Mormon and I don’t see where all your fear and hatred of Mormons come from. Perhaps it is because I actually know people who practice the faith? Maybe it is because I have actually attended their church on many occassions? Maybe it is because I am actually tolerant of others beliefs and not just preach about being tolerant?

It’s funny how all these years on WatchBlog you have never displayed such hatred for the Mormon religion. You never once blasted Reid for his Mormon beliefs.
It is quite obvious that only now have a problem with Mormons is because Romney is one and the majority of them vote Republican. It is nothing more than
petty politics.

Your hypocritical militant “non-theist” attacks give us atheists a bad reputation.

Adam, I’m not going to let you get by with these bullshit statements. Are you making claims against Fox News, or are you making them against guests on Fox News?

“One example is their breathless reporting of the 7.8% unemployment as a fudged number. There are no facts to back that up, it’s a complete fantasy. It’s not news, it’s propaganda. That’s all you ever get from Fox News. You don’t notice because you breathlessly repeat these lies yourself. You may even believe them yourself, sadly.”

Information is not hard to find on the Internet, so perhaps you could give me a link to a Fox News broadcast where a Fox News anchor said the 7.8% unemployment was a fudged number? Facts or no facts make no difference; your claim is that the Fox News channel made the comment the numbers were fudged…show us the link to one of their anchors making it. I’m not talking about political guests, I’m talking about Fox anchors.

I said:
“Rasmussen has always had Romney and Obama almost even within the margin of error.”

And you said:
“They are close polls, I agree. But what about Fox News who had Obama up 5% the week before the debate? How do you explain that away if you’re arguing Obama has never lead Romney?”

Dumbass, I never mentioned Fox News polls, you did. I talked about your attacks on Rasmussen Polls, of which you now evidently agree with this comment, “They are close polls, I agree.” Did I talk about Fox Polls??? You are so ignorant as to try to tie everything together; why do you hate Rasmussen; why do you hate Fox News? You hate Rasmussen because, according to you, their polls are biased GOP and false, and yet you now agree they are correct. You hate Fox News because…who knows why…I guess it’s just because they are Fox. So your argument against Fox comes down to a Fox Poll which was never even talked about. I don’t care about Fox Polls and I never used Fox Polls to prove there has always been a tight race between Romney and Obama. So why do you bring it up? You make baseless accusations against Fox News on fudged numbers, with no proof.

I said:
“You hate Rush Limbaugh…why…because he tells things the liberal MSM won’t touch.”

And this is you intelligent answer:
“He’s a liar. End of story.”

So your answer is the typical liberal personal attacks. End of story.

I said:
“You do realize that Rush Limbaugh has been shown to be 99% right all the time by the Sullivan Group in Sacramento?”

You said:
“Limbaugh told you that joke, right?”

Actually, he didn’t; the info can be found on Sullivan’s web page.

I said:
“You hate the Drudge Report…”

You said:
“I don’t hate it. It’s just that sites don’t become popular with conservatives for being accurate or true. They become popular because every single thing they do props up a right wing world view land the same way that Andrew Breitbart’s work did, and David Barton’s work still does.”

The Drudge site is popular with more than conservatives. In fact, let me put it this way; the Drudge site is hated by the Obama administration…why…because it links to all news and it is up to the reader to determine if the information is correct or not. Tell me Adam, do you feel the same way about the Huffpost or the Dailykos because “they become popular because every single thing they do props up a left wing world view”. Or are you only outraged that conservatives provide information contrary to liberal thought?

You said:
“You don’t want the truth, you want to hear people who agree with you and use those people as evidence you are right.

The foundation for your thinking is built on lies, Frank.”
Posted by: Adam Ducker at October 10, 2012 10:29 AM

You say I don’t want the truth because I get information from Drudge, Rush, Fox News, or some other “conservative” site; and yet you are inferring you do want the truth because you get your information from the Huffpost, Dailykos, or the Liberal MSM. Am I missing something here, or are your comments completely arrogant, elitist, and hypocritical?

It appears all of your problems with Rush, Fox, Drudge, Rasmussen, or any other frequently read conservative site is simply based upon emotion and not on logic. And your answers against them are that they are liars and you hate them. Liars are a broad statement to be claimed for a plethora of information. Perhaps you could be a little more specific next time.

Frank: “Adam, I’m not going to let you get by with these bullshit statements. Are you making claims against Fox News, or are you making them against guests on Fox News?”

Here is Hannity flat out calling the numbers fake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g6nsetZpHU

Fox News started early in the day with their anchors questioning the numbers, bringing on guests that discredited BLS and the Obama administration, anchors and other contributors took to Twitter to spread the news, and then it was all capped off by a nighttime clown show with Sean Hannity.

“Dumbass, I never mentioned Fox News polls, you did.”

Exactly. I asked about Rasmussen and Fox News polls and you only commented on Rasmussen. You dismiss Rasmussen polls showing Obama ahead because his lead was in the margin of error. So what do you say about a Fox News poll that showed Obama ahead even beyond those margins?

“So your answer is the typical liberal personal attacks. End of story.”

Limbaugh is a liar. You cite him at the expense of your own credibility. He makes his money not because he’s right but because folks like you love to hear him smear liberals and you don’t care if he uses truth or fiction.

“Actually, he didn’t; the info can be found on Sullivan’s web page.”

Sullivan is a long time friend of Limbaugh, a fill in host, and a conservative radio show host. Did you not get the joke? I’m guessing not. Hilarious.

“Tell me Adam, do you feel the same way about the Huffpost or the Dailykos…”

We’ve been over this before. I do not read Daily Kos or HuffPo except an occasional stop in from links posted on sites I read. I don’t surround myself with information that only props up with my world view the way you do, Frank. I get outside the bubble and I listen to other view points. Try it sometime.

Good one Adam; is Hannity a Fox News anchor? Or is he like Maddow with thier own show?

“Fox News started early in the day with their anchors questioning the numbers, bringing on guests that discredited BLS and the Obama administration, anchors and other contributors took to Twitter to spread the news, and then it was all capped off by a nighttime clown show with Sean Hannity.”

Personal attacks on Hannity; but tell me AD, did Fox offer opposing views in thei discussion about the nunbers?

“Limbaugh is a liar. You cite him at the expense of your own credibility.”

Persoanl attacks again AD; I cite them because they get under your skin.

“Sullivan is a long time friend of Limbaugh, a fill in host, and a conservative radio show host. Did you not get the joke? I’m guessing not. Hilarious”

So AD, it took you 2 post to finally look it up? I have to admit, your one quick guy.

“We’ve been over this before. I do not read Daily Kos or HuffPo except an occasional stop in from links posted on sites I read. I don’t surround myself with information that only props up with my world view the way you do, Frank. I get outside the bubble and I listen to other view points.”

Answered in order; yes you do…and no you don’t.

I am going to stop calling you AD and start calling you DA, because DA fits you much better.

Frank: “Good one Adam; is Hannity a Fox News anchor? Or is he like Maddow with thier own show?”

Just like you, Fox News spreads lies about unemployment to discredit President Obama. It’s that simple.

“So AD, it took you 2 post to finally look it up? I have to admit, your one quick guy.”

Like most of your crazy claims I looked it up right away. Unlike you I have an interest in facts and reality.

“I am going to stop calling you AD and start calling you DA, because DA fits you much better.”

Go ahead. You can’t scratch up a fact to save your life. What’s another personal attack from you?

For Adrienne’s benefit…

CURSING: An appeal or prayer for evil or misfortune to befall someone or something.
The evil or misfortune that comes in or as if in response to such an appeal.

FOUL LANGUAGE: The nasty words you use that aren’t cursing.

For example Adrienne…If I write G** Damn you…that is cursing.

If I write Fuc* you…that is foul language.

Glad I could clear that up for you.

Jack:

Theists think that the non-belief in God is a lot like choosing not to believe in the weather

They also fear that someone not tethered to a belief is a higher power might be untethered to morality in general.

A fear that is not only highly obnoxious and offensive, but groundless. Religion is religion. Morality is morality. There is no proof that adherence to religion naturally leads to moral actions and behaviors. Indeed, there are far more theists sitting in jails after committing crimes than there are non-theists. Agnostics, Atheists, Unitarians and Free-Thinkers are ranked in extremely low numbers in our jails, so claiming that non-theists have no morality is completely illogical. That this claim is made anyway is always intended to be an insult toward non-theists. It is also a baseless assertion of superiority on the part of the religious. The fact is, human beings cannot be labeled as untrustworthy, evil or immoral simply because they haven’t joined religions, and it is incredibly offensive to suggest that the only option for non-theists is to join a church in order to be considered moral, or otherwise be permanently labeled immoral.

I understand that you disagree with these beliefs, but you should try to understand them as a way of understanding a majority of your fellow Americans.

I don’t need the lecture. Are you somehow under the impression that I am a shut-in who doesn’t understand that more Americans are religious than are not? Religion is everywhere in America. Indeed it often seems an obsessive mania, and it is increasingly being injected into places where it has absolutely no business being. Like between a woman and her doctor. Or into people’s bedrooms.

It doesn’t help your cause when you make what appears to believers to be crazy attacks on religion.

There is nothing crazy about exposing religious cults because they are dangerous organizations that harm people’s ability to think clearly and logically, and who extract money from their followers, and who try to control all aspects of their lives. The Cult of Mormon (along with others, such as Scientology) deserve exposure and frank discussion.

It depends on your goal, I suppose. If you goal is to vent your anger and demonstrate hatred, you have succeeded.

I do not talk about this to demonstrate hatred. In fact, I do it to expose the fact that Joseph Smith was an obvious fake and false prophet, and that his made up religious cult is based on tons of nonsense and that it is full of hate since it happens to be racist, misogynistic, and bigoted in the extreme.
There is plentiful proof that what I am saying is true. So let me give you some examples…

From Joseph Smith’s Book of Mormon (Nephi is one of numerous made up names in that laughably bad work of fiction):

“And he had caused the acursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.”

This passage gave the Mormons permission to be racists towards people of color — up until 1978 when the church leaders suddenly had “a holy revelation” that instructed them to reverse all of their longstanding racial restriction policies. I’m sure this had nothing to do with the fact that they had been faced with numerous law suits since the Civil Rights Era, or that this came at a time when their young missionaries were working overtime to convert people in Brazil — and had been faced with the problem that many Brazilians are of mixed race.

“And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth”

“And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose foundation is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence…”

The “church of the devil” and “the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth” is EVERY OTHER RELIGION ON EARTH.

Also here is Joseph Smith speaking about his alleged first vision where celestial beings appeared and talked to him:

“My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt…

If Joseph Smith’s goal is to vent his anger and demonstrate hatred, he has succeeded very well, no?

As for him being a complete and total fraud, there is proof of this fact. His entire Book of Abraham has been proven to be nothing but BS.
Here’s the story behind that: In 1835, an Irishman brought an exhibit of four Egyptian mummies and papyri to Kirtland, Ohio (which was at that time the Zion of the Mormon Cult). The papyri contained Egyptian hieroglyphics — but in 1835 there were only a handful of people understood how to read Egyptian hieroglyphics (the Rosetta Stone had only been translated in 1822 so naturally there were not many who could read hieroglyphics).

As Prophet of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith was allowed to look at the the exhibit and as soon as he saw the papyri he bogusly declared that “one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, and the other the writings of Joseph of Egypt.”
The Mormons immediately bought the exhibit for $2400 from the Irishman. Smith produced his “translation” of the Book of Abraham some time later (although he never got around to writing the Book of Joseph). He even included some drawings in the Book of Abraham from the scroll and made up a bunch of stuff about what they were supposed to represent. Maybe because Smith wasn’t in the mood to start his writing of the Book of Joseph, the papyri were then declared to be lost. Other Mormons claimed they were destroyed in a fire in Chicago. More likely, Smith sold them as antiquities for money at some point. Anyway, since the papyri were no longer around, there was never any way to validate Smith’s “translation” of the Book of Abraham.

No way until in 1966 that is, when the two papyri were rediscovered in New York at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Even the Mormons had to admit that the scrolls had to have been the same ones used by Smith, because on the back of the papyri there were drawings of a Mormon temple and some maps drawn of Kirtland, Ohio. When Egyptologists translated the papyri they found Joseph Smith’s interpretation of them to be totally wrong and indeed, outrageously ridiculous. The two scrolls had nothing whatever to do with what Smith had claimed — they were actually Egyptian writings on the topic of funerary practices and embalming methods.

Despite this, the cult of Mormon ignores this finding and still claims the Book of Abraham is holy scripture.
But in reality, in 1966 we were given proof positive that Joseph Smith was a lying charlatan who made bogus religious claims and wrote out fraudulent “holy scriptures.”

Not there wasn’t a lot of proof much earlier that Smith was nothing but a liar though. In the Book of Mormon, Smith talks about Scimitars which didn’t even exist until a date later than he claims, and horses that didn’t exist in America until the 16th century, and elephants that were never brought to America until a later date, and steel and silk that the Jews didn’t yet have, etc., etc. Lots of blatant and obvious proof well before 1966 that Smith was a dishonest charlatan who was trying to fool his followers with fake religious nonsense by making up a bunch of fake religious texts as he went along. This includes the fact that he did a complete about face on the subject of Mormon men keeping lots of polygamous wives — at first he denounced it as an abomination, but later embraced it by marrying or having sex with approximately 60 women.

If you goal is to convince people to alter their beliefs or behaviors, you fail miserably. It is very easy to dismiss what you are saying because of the way you say it.

I’m not surprised that you would make this claim since you always dismiss everything I say, and complain about the way in which I say things. But no matter, I still think people should know the truth about religious cults since they’re such damaging and controlling organizations.

You will probably think this is a personal attack and dismiss it, probably deploy vulgarity. But I ask you to think about this. What I wrote above is very reasonable. If you react with anger to something like this, imagine how your words much more strident words must affect those who disagree with you.

I am telling the truth about Mormonism. If people are offended by that it must mean they would prefer to remain ignorant. Mitt Romney is a high ranking bishop in the cult of Mormon and wants to lead our country. Knowing about his religion therefore becomes a valid issue of importance.
Besides, wasn’t there a great deal made of Obama’s church and pastor during the last election? Yes, there was.
So, I don’t think this should be a topic that must remain off limits.

kctim:

We don’t need an atheist to be represented any more than you need a chick to truly represent you or I need a white dude to truly represent me.

Speak for yourself. When religion is being injected into the lives of Americans everywhere we look, it’s time to think about the fact that non-theists may indeed need representation to protect our freedom NOT to have to live and religiously believe as others would like to be able to force us to.

You know, I have also read the Book of Mormon and I don’t see where all your fear and hatred of Mormons come from.

See the blockquoted text above. Also consider Mormon treatment of women and gay people as second class citizens who they consider undeserving of civil rights and liberties.

Perhaps it is because I actually know people who practice the faith? Maybe it is because I have actually attended their church on many occassions? Maybe it is because I am actually tolerant of others beliefs and not just preach about being tolerant?

Maybe because you are a man who is willing to be tolerant of Mormon intolerance and bigotry. I am not.

It’s funny how all these years on WatchBlog you have never displayed such hatred for the Mormon religion.

I’ve never liked the cult of Mormon or the way they’ve long acted as a wealthy, regressive political action committee in the US. I’ve considered them a dangerous force ever since I was a teenaged girl and learned how they fought against civil rights legislation for Black Americans, and became aware of how they were pouring money into defeating the passage of the equal rights amendment. More recently I watched as they poured money into the passage of Prop(H)8 in my state of California that denied marriage rights to Gay Americans.
Now, a Mormon is running for president — and everything he stands for is equally as wealthy and regressive and wrong-headed.

You never once blasted Reid for his Mormon beliefs.

Because I’ve never once seen Reid even mention his religion. Because Reid isn’t a regressive who works to deny Americans rights and civil liberties.

It is quite obvious that only now have a problem with Mormons is because Romney is one and the majority of them vote Republican. It is nothing more than petty politics.

Religion was made into an acceptable political issue in the last election. Namely Obama’s religion and how bad it was for the country. Now suddenly it’s supposed to be off limits? You wish to claim that Romney’s Mormonism is off limits even though he’s a high ranking bishop in what is most definitely and without a doubt a regressive and discriminatory cult? Well, that’s just too bad. This is an issue of concern, and Americans should be able to talk about it frankly and honestly.

Your hypocritical militant “non-theist” attacks give us atheists a bad reputation.

I’m no hypocrite. I always speak my mind and have always been willing to stand up for what I believe. Your problem (and Jack’s too) is that you are tolerant of intolerance, and you simply don’t agree with me politically.

Adrienne

I dismiss things that do not accomplish their goals. It is actually to my side’s benefit to let you vent. But let me share one more thing with you.

You cannot tell people more than they are ready to hear. You may believe you are revealing the truth to the benighted masses. But others don’t hear it the way you think you are saying it.

I understand that probably nobody has ever convinced you to change you opinions about anything, but speculate about how they might successfully go about making the change? Would it be by making a direct frontal assault on your existing belief system and calling you names?

I know only two atheists…good people, but weird in their belief in astrology, palm reading, omens and in all manner of superstitions.

My belief in God is informed by, and centered in, the books written about Him, inspired by Him, and assembled into what is commonly referred to as the Bible. For the Bible to be false would require the most astonishing conspiracy ever perpetrated by disparate people over a period of thousand of years.

Royal

I have found what you say to be true. People who reject region often take up all sorts of really absurd superstitions. There has been a growth in beliefs in astrology, space aliens, ghosts, not to mention all those new age things. Some of this is related to the decline of religion. If you don’t believe in something, you will fall for anything.

Mr. Ducker…Shocked by Romney’s “lies”? We’ll how about O’s promises before he was elected? Immigration reform? Cut deficit? Televise healthcare negotiations? No lobbyists in Whitehouse? There are more. You know there are more. Can you blame Bush for all of them?

I don’t know what will happen on Nov. 6th, but I do know that right now, O is in deep trouble, and judging from talking heads tonight, it could get much worse. The Libyan cover-up, the White House exposing Seal Team 6 as Bin Laden killers, and Democrat Steve Wynn pounding on Prez and his failure to create jobs. He, in fact, says that he has personally created more jobs than O and his administration have.

I truly feel for those who were crowing so loudly just a little over a week ago. Get used to that punched in the gut sensation. Not sure it is going to be going away for a good while. Pray that Biden doesn’t drop another turd in the punch bowl tomorrow night or it could be over before the 6th ever gets here.

Good grief, who let Adrienne out of her cage. She’s beginning to write like SD…reams of paper. The eyes begin to glaze over after a couple paragraphs.

John Johnson: “We’ll how about O’s promises before he was elected?”

Unmet campaign promises are not lies. You’ve said this several times and I’ve been wanting to ask you why you thought otherwise.

Frank:

I wouldn’t brag about my inability to read more than a few lines on a single page at once if I were you. But then again knowing you have this problem explains a lot about you…

I guess it is perception. I didn’t mention Guantanamo because I truly think he intended to shut it down but decided not to after getting briefed. I don’t think he ever intended to fulfill the ones I’ve listed. None were even mentioned after he won the race. That, in my mind, is lying.

What were you saying DA?

Obama has kept far more promises than he broke and he’s compromised in many cases to fulfill a promise as best he can. There are things candidates say even knowing it will be hard or near impossible but does that make it a lie? He has an agenda and nearly every promise he made fits that agenda so it’s doubtful he made many statements he knew he intended never to keep. Who knows though?

Just because he couldn’t get to an agenda item while it was possible until for instance after January 2011 when it was impossible, doesn’t mean he lied. That’s just what happens when you have a do-nothing Congress.

That is one of the most convoluted answers I have ever seen, and not worthy of further comment. It would be a waste of time. O is your horse, and the fact that he has proven to be more of a show pony than a Clydesdale, who does what it takes to get the job done, you are going to continue to put your money on him. Fortunately, it looks as though others are conducting a more cerebral evaluation and reconsidering.

Adrienne

Religion is not being “injected into the lives of Americans everywhere we look,” beliefs are. Religion is nothing more than a set of beliefs people choose to live by, which is the exact same thing as you choosing to live by your liberal beliefs. You forcing me to live according to your liberal beliefs is no different than a religious person forcing you to live by their religious beliefs.

“Also consider Mormon treatment of women and gay people as second class citizens who they consider undeserving of civil rights and liberties.”

Then it is safe to say that you believe Islam is not a religion, but a cult? Its treatment of women and gay people isn’t exactly all that great, to say the least.

“Maybe because you are a man who is willing to be tolerant of Mormon intolerance and bigotry. I am not.”

No, it is because I am consistent in my belief that ALL are entilted to believe as they so choose. I do not expect nor demand that others believe as I say.

“Now, a Mormon is running for president — and everything he stands for is equally as wealthy and regressive and wrong-headed.”

No, Romney is running for president, the fact that he follows the Mormon religion should have nothing to do with anything. Your reasoning is no different than those who will not vote a candidate because he/she is a Muslim, Catholic or ATHEIST.

“Because I’ve never once seen Reid even mention his religion. Because Reid isn’t a regressive who works to deny Americans rights and civil liberties.”

But he is a Mormon, which judging by your venomous tirades, makes one stupid and evil.

“Well, that’s just too bad. This is an issue of concern, and Americans should be able to talk about it frankly and honestly.”

IF it is of such concern, then it applies to ALL Mormons.

“I’m no hypocrite. I always speak my mind and have always been willing to stand up for what I believe. Your problem (and Jack’s too) is that you are tolerant of intolerance, and you simply don’t agree with me politically”

No Adrienne, your problem is that you are not consistent in your beliefs.
You say nothing about leftist Mormons while holding all other Mormons in contempt.
You mock and demean Mormons and Joseph Smith, but willfully ignore the similarities with Muslims and Muhammad.
You condemn helping others in the name of God, but support forcing people to help others in the name of government.
You base your views of a person and their actions on what their political leanings are. Multi-millionaire liberal who gives 1 or 2 percent of their wealth away is good, multi-millionaire Republican who gives away almost half of their wealth away, bad.
I could go on and on.

The fact is, liberalism is based on one holding hypocritical views.

John Johnson:

Sorry you feel that way. It has nothing to do with horses. It’s true of President Obama, it was true of President Bush, and it will be true of a President Romney should he be given that chance.

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kctim:

Religion is not being “injected into the lives of Americans everywhere we look,” beliefs are. Religion is nothing more than a set of beliefs people choose to live by, which is the exact same thing as you choosing to live by your liberal beliefs.

You have got to be one of the most confused, religious-defending atheists I’ve ever seen. Because you should know damn well that both religion AND religious beliefs are constantly being injected into our society. Since you have always seemed incapable of acknowledging this fact, I have long suspected that in reality you’re not a non-theist at all despite your claims.
It is in fact very clear to most people who are authentically and truthfully non-theists that both religion and religious beliefs are being forced upon American society. For instance, when people are endlessly repeating the claim that America is a “Christian Nation” that’s religion being injected into our society. Period.
If you are going to be idiot enough to try to disagree with that then I suggest you simply contrast this with the idea of hearing American Jews endlessly repeating the claim that “America is a Jewish Nation,” or if American Muslims did the same with “America is a Muslim Nation.”
And, to give a good example of how strictly religious beliefs are being injected into our society we have things such as statewide anti-abortion laws based on religious beliefs being passed, or failing that, the mandated attempted shaming and punishment of unnecessary transvaginal ultrasounds for women who are seeking abortions.
Non-theists who would defend either of these kinds of things taking place, and being increasingly pushed cannot honestly call themselves non-theist. Because no non-theist would ever want to neglect defending the rights of fellow non-theists to be free to live in a free nation. A nation that will protects the religious freedoms of all, while at the same time protecting our people from being forced to live according the demands and wishes of authoritarian religious zealots.

You forcing me to live according to your liberal beliefs is no different than a religious person forcing you to live by their religious beliefs.

What a towering pile of utterly dishonest horsesh*t. Has anyone ever heard a Liberal, or a Progressive, or a Non-theist, or a Free Thinker of any kind declare that America is a nation that must belong to our ideas and philosophies alone? NO, YOU HAVEN’T. Because that would in fact go against EVERYTHING such people ACTUALLY believe in: FREEDOM OF CHOICE. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness For ALL — including for all those we strongly disagree with ideologically.

Indeed, if religious people and conservatives of all kinds wish to torture themselves with invisible God(s), and fear of eternal damnations, and ludicrous fairy tales, and strict male domination in their households, and enforced motherhood and second class citizenship for their women, and denial of their own homosexuality, etc. and actually enjoy that and find it fulfilling, then they should have that freedom to choose those things for themselves.

But again, to even make this kind statement calls your actual views into serious question. You’re not truly an atheist at all, are you kctim? For some odd reason you may like labeling yourself that way, but in reality you’re far too willing to accept religious rightwing authoritarianism being allowed to negate the rights of non-theists and everyone on the left.

Then it is safe to say that you believe Islam is not a religion, but a cult? Its treatment of women and gay people isn’t exactly all that great, to say the least.

Islam like Christianity and Judaism and Buddhism and other faiths are all long-established religions. That being said, I personally think that all of these religions did begin as cults — for the purposes of controlling people (especially women), yes. It is only through cultural entrenchment and long-standing tradition is what turns cults based on magical thinking into what we know as religion.
But Mormonism doesn’t rank in that respect — not yet. It’s such a new cult that people still have the ability to expose it as a fraudulent messianic cult of personality with tons of fake hocus-pocus, and dishonest motives.

Btw, I find it interesting how you (and Jack also) always bring up Islam whenever rightwing religious zealotry is discussed. Whether you are aware of this or not, by doing so you make a clear admission that there is are obvious parallels to be made between various forms of rightwing religious authoritarianism all over the world, and how dangerous and brutal they are.

No, it is because I am consistent in my belief that ALL are entilted to believe as they so choose. I do not expect nor demand that others believe as I say.

No, you are not at all consistent in that belief — if you were consistent you wouldn’t be bogusly conflating basic civil rights and liberties and individual freedom of choice by making a demonstrably false statement like “forced liberal beliefs” when this clearly cannot be applied.

No, Romney is running for president, the fact that he follows the Mormon religion should have nothing to do with anything. Your reasoning is no different than those who will not vote a candidate because he/she is a Muslim, Catholic or ATHEIST.

No. The difference between those religions and a cult along the lines of Mormonism is very stark, in my view. And, the fact that Mitt Romney is a high ranking bishop within that cult is exactly the reason why I think raising the issue becomes is necessary.
The fact is, those at the top of the cult of Mormon HAVE TO KNOW that that a cult is exactly what it is. The Mormon’s hide so many of the bizarre facts, and weird temple rites, and the long history of crazy and shameful acts from those followers who rank lower. (In fact, people who are non-Mormon are often able to learn more about Mormonism and their bizarre rites and history than people typically do within the cult.) But, when Mormon’s rise up the ranks (and pay out large sums of money for that privilege) the way that Mitt Romney has, they eventually become privy to all the lies and dirty secrets, and all they need to know in order to clearly recognize that Mormonism is indeed a cult.

And let’s be clear, Mormonism is a cult with a history that clearly shows that their “holy prophet” Joseph Smith was a religious charlatan, a liar, a swindler and a cheat who robbed a large number of people through banking scams, and bogus treasure finding schemes, and tons of real estate fraud.
A history that shows that Holy Prophet Smith was a town mayor who ordered a printing press destroyed because he didn’t want to face any local criticism over the fact that he had completely consolidated Mormon power over their courts and their city council, and was trying to establish a Mormon theocracy to rule over and control the entire town.
A history that ultimately ended in Smith’s murder as result of those factors, along with the fact that he and his male followers had been forcing and coercing women into plural marriages against their will — including girls as young as 13 and 14 years of age.
A history that makes Mormonism the only religious group in America to have seen it’s followers rise up and attempt to wage war on the US government.
A history that is rife with illegal actions against the people and government of the US in general — such as Mormons planning out the Mountain Meadows Massacre, which had Mormons disguising themselves as Native Americans and attacking a wagon train of Americans moving west, and killing all 120+ men, women and children.

So, all of the high ranking elders of the Mormon cult, including Bishop Mitt Romney, have access to all the secrets of the Mormon archives, and they know it’s dismal history. But still they claim to be devout and adhere to Joseph Smith — claiming him as their prophet and seeking to further and expand all of the interests of the bizarre cult he established. Much like Joseph Smith himself, these men, including Romney, are liars and people of bad character for choosing to support this fraud and then call it religion.

I say all of these things not to dump on people who have been intentionally kept in the dark by the cult hierarchy. I say these things only because I don’t want a cult member who is a liar and a person of obvious bad character to become the president of the United States.

But he is a Mormon, which judging by your venomous tirades, makes one stupid

No. Not stupid, but Duped. Tricked. Fooled. I very feel bad for those who don’t know these things and are intentionally kept in ignorance about the cult they grew up in, and/or are converted into.

and evil.

The top of the Mormon cult hierarchy — yes, I consider them evil. It is an evil thing that they willingly lie and work tirelessly to further the cult by dishonestly claiming that Smith was a prophet when it’s crystal clear he wasn’t anything of the sort. They KNOW that he was a religious charlatan, a liar, and a crook — and by perpetrating what they know to be so many cult myths they make themselves into those very same things. I consider it evil that these men endlessly promote and pour vast sums of money into a cult whose false prophet preached a so-called “holy scripture” that operates on the premise which claims that every other religion is “the whore of all the earth,” and the “mother of harlots,” and “church of the devil.”

No Adrienne, your problem is that you are not consistent in your beliefs.

Yes, I am.

You say nothing about leftist Mormons while holding all other Mormons in contempt.

If Harry Reid began promoting the Mormon cult, I’d be quick to denounce him. If he stood up in the Senate and attempted to pass legislation to control women or withhold civil rights and liberties from American citizens, I’d be even quicker in denouncing him.

You mock and demean Mormons and Joseph Smith, but willfully ignore the similarities with Muslims and Muhammad.

Willfully ignore? Look, a proclaimed devout Muslim isn’t running for president at the moment. A proclaimed devout Mormon is. If a devout Muslim was a presidential candidate (or a member of a cult like Scientology for that matter) you’d be hearing me voice many similar reservations. I’m a progressive who will always stand up to FIGHT AGAINST all forms of regression and religious/political authoritarianism.

You condemn helping others in the name of God,

This is a lie. And, what’s more, you KNOW you are lying when you say this.

but support forcing people to help others in the name of government.

I’m a student of history, and thus I am fully aware that whenever and wherever our government has helped Americans who needed help, it has caused our entire society to prosper, improve, and flourish in numerous ways.

multi-millionaire Republican who gives away almost half of their wealth away, bad.

All his wealth away to the cult of Mormon — yes, bad.

The fact is, liberalism is based on one holding hypocritical views.

Bullsh*t. And again, you repeat an attack has only to do with the fact that you are willing to be tolerant in the face of rightwing intolerance and authoritarianism, and don’t agree with my political views.

Adrienne

The reason I bring up Islam is to point out that liberals like you attack Mormonism because it is easy and safe. You are afraid to attack Islam in anything like the same way, even though by all the measures you claim to hold dear, it is much worse.

Mormons used to be polygamous; Muslims still are. Mormons don’t support gay marriage; Muslims stone gays to death. The list could go on.

It brings me to the old question as to why animal rights activists throw paint on old ladies in fur coats, but keep quiet around motorcycle gangs dressed all in leather.

It seems to me that you guys take principled stands when the risks to you are low. You harken back to the days when it was dangerous to oppose the powers. But it is not like that anymore. Today liberals often ARE the powers. It takes no courage to support liberal causes on campuses or to march in the streets of the U.S. or Europe.

The point is that, it is easy & safe to attack Mormons. You know they will not react as Muslims would. Beyond that, it is in style among you guys to attack various Christian groups. Your friends will praise you and call you courageous. If you do the same with Muslims you will be called intolerant.

The liberal mind has defined groups that you can attack and which you must leave alone.

Consider your own distinction between Mormons and blacks in the California gay marriage debate. Mormon groups worked against gay marriage. Blacks voted in large numbers against it. Yet, as a liberal, you cannot criticize people of color. This changes only when they begin to support Republicans.

Mr. Ducker, I’m scratching my head over your last retort also.

The reason I bring up Islam

The reason you bring up Islam is to avoid all discussion of what I’ve said here about false prophet Joseph Smith and his cult of Mormon. This is very obvious. And, you clearly wish to avoid having to respond to the fact that your candidate is a high ranking member of a bogus religion who is perfectly willing and comfortable with the idea of lying on behalf of that scumbag false prophet and that cult — just as he is willing to lie about so very many other things practically every time he opens that pathologically dishonest mouth of his.

It seems to me that you guys take principled stands when the risks to you are low. You harken back to the days when it was dangerous to oppose the powers. But it is not like that anymore. Today liberals often ARE the powers. It takes no courage to support liberal causes on campuses or to march in the streets of the U.S. or Europe.

Oh sure, no courage at all — because the first Amendment is so carefully and sacredly observed at all times and there is no such thing as police misconduct toward people on the left! Getting beaten and clubbed and dragged over the streets and shot with tasers and arrested by the cops simply for protesting against the rampant criminality of Wall Street is as nothing. And being pepper-sprayed in the face, and breathing in choking lungfuls of tear-gas, and having bean bag rounds and flash-bang grenades fired at, or exploded right near you for daring to gather with others in protest is — well, it’s just like a walk in the park! Just ask Scott Olsen the Marine Corp veteran who survived two tours in Iraq only to come home and get shot in the head at close range by a tear gas or smoke canister by an Oakland cop (or was it Homeland Security?) for daring to protest during Occupy Wall Street. He merely suffered permanent brain damage and a speech impediment as a result of how incredibly safe and easy it is for people to petition government for a redress of grievances. I’m sure he’d would be happy to tell everyone how well it’s all going, and how little courage it takes to be a protester on the left here in the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Mormon groups worked against gay marriage.

Not only worked. The Mormons funded the campaign against full civil rights for Gay Californian. We’re talking many millions of dollars which they collected from the “charitable” tithes provided by their cult members.

Blacks voted in large numbers against it.

And those who did should be absolutely ashamed of themselves for doing so because that was an incredibly wrong and immoral to do. People who have been victims of discrimination simply due to the color of their skin should not then turn around and wish to victimize and discriminate against people simply due to their sexual orientation.

Adrienne

Re debating Mormonism - I don’t care about their doctrine. People believe lots of things. Frankly I don’t care what people say they believe. I look at what they do. Mormons I know are mostly good and honest people, who obey the laws, give lots to charity and rarely drink or smoke.

Re “‘charitable’ tithes provided by their cult members.” being used against gay marriage - you know that tax exempt contributions cannot be used in political debates. If you have evidence that Mormons have misused contributions like this, you should bring it to the attention of the authorities.

Re protesting - it is not very dangerous in America. And supporting leftist causes is positively good for your career in entertainment, academia and the media. It is regrettable that some Occupy protested debauched into violence, but having actually seen many of the Occupy folks, I am not surprised.

Of course, you must really respect the Tea Party for getting out there in large numbers and never having examples of violence, except against them.

Re blacks voting against gay rights - you make individual distinctions among blacks but assume that all Mormons voted all the same. Of course, we are talking big numbers. In North Carolina as many as 70% of the black voters voted against gay marriage and a group of black pastors is urging their constituents to not vote for Obama.

So then you hate 100% of Mormons but only 70% of blacks.

If you add up all the people you hate, how many people are left?

Jack, I see you’re still avoiding the topic of Mitt Romney entirely. You can’t talk about the things I’ve said here, despite the fact that you had plenty of things to say regarding Obama and the church he attended, and the Reverend Wright. All you’ve got to offer after everything I’ve written here are a bunch of avoidance topics and really transparent lies, along with the average number of personal insults/unfair accusations you generally direct toward me. So, I realize there’s no longer any point in replying. I’ve got your number down cold, and always know when to quit arguing with you at this point.

But, go ahead and have the last word if you want it. Tell a few more lies, lob a few more insults and accusations — knock yourself out.

Adrienne

I specifically objected to Reverend Wright and his crazy racism. It was not the church; it was that guy who Obama claimed as a mentor and friend.

To copy your style, you are full of sh*t. I have not lied to you. I state my opinions. Just because they are beyond your understanding, does not mean they are lies. I also do not believe that a reasonable person would think I have personally insulted you. You are just exceptionally thinned skinned

I am glad that you have told me that you will not respond any more. I will thus get to post the final word on this. I don’t believe it. My bet is that you will be back. Figure out a good excuse for doing that and deploy the appropriate vulgarity and we will be back in business.

If not … good.

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