Democrats & Liberals Archives

Flip Flop Romney Mourns Diplomats After Bashing Obama

Just 24 hours after scorning President Obama for his leadership, Republican Candidate Mitt Romney turned his attention today to grieve the loss of the four U.S. diplomats who died in the attack. The attacks at the U.S. Embassy in Lybia and the continued riots and violence are a chief concern the America right now.

Posted by obamaluv at September 14, 2012 4:11 PM
Comments
Comment #352886

One can both mourn the dead and oppose Obama. It doesn’t require a change of mind.

The escalating violence in the Middle East is a concern. It goes to show that it is their fault and not ours. We had violence with Bush was president and now we have violence when Obama is president. It is not Obama’s fault nor was it Bush’s fault. When dealing with barbarians, you must realize that they will go nuts every once in a while. We need not search our own selves for how we “provoked them”

Posted by: C&J at September 13, 2012 9:18 PM
Comment #352890

Agreed C&J, Bush had embassy attacks so has Obama and he’ll have more if he gets re-elected. It obviously doesn’t take much to set those lunatics off. Just as Romney can criticize the president and mourn the loss of diplomats, Obama can condemn the attacks and the stupid movie that is their latest excuse. I’m sure those folks are being told that this movie is official US policy and the like. It’s not a bad idea to put it out there that this movie is BS and has nothing to do with this country just some twisted individual. If it reaches one person who decides not to behave violently and possibly take someone;s life then it’s worth it even if he gets called weak by Romney. From what I heard they arrested 4 people in Libya. That was the troubling one since it obviously involved something other than a mob. That seemed more organized and targeted.

Posted by: tcsned at September 13, 2012 9:48 PM
Comment #352892

tcsned

I have mixed feelings about “understanding and explaining”. Let me take this out of the Obama lane to say that it was also Bush policy.

We have a big country with lots of opinions and free speech. If the president or the government in general needs to apologize each time someone does something that might set off the nut cases, it will never end.

IMO, in the longer run it leads to MORE violence, since the bad guys know they can make us jump by pretending to be outraged.

I remember the problem we had with hostage taking under Reagan. It really bothered Reagan and he went to extraordinary lengths to try to save them. It didn’t work. The bad guys were behaving like three year olds who understand that they can make their parents jump by being brats. When Bush I came in, he simply told the bad guys that what they were doing was uncivilized but he put it on the back burner. There was criticism, but soon the bad guy stopped taking hostages. It didn’t pay.

There is nothing any private citizen in the U.S. could do that would justify the mobs attacking and killing people not involved with the alleged insult. Nothing. We should not try to figure out how we might have set this off. Rather we should figure out how to protect ourselves better.

Simply said, it is not us; it is them. There is nothing we can reasonably do that will satisfy the extremists. We should eliminate extremists when we can and avoid them at other times.

One more story. During the hostage taking time, you may recall that the bad guys seized a Soviet - one time. They soon let him out. The story is that the KGB grabbed the brother of one of the hostage takers. They sent the brother one testicle and promised to send along more parts unless their man was let out. While I generally disliked the Soviets, I understand that the chorus of the former hostage takers is enriched with sopranos and top-tenors.

Posted by: C&J at September 13, 2012 10:10 PM
Comment #352895

The deaths in Libya had nothing to do with a film. We are looking at two seperate issues; one is the reason for the deaths and the other is a bunch of ignorant Muslims protesting.

The deaths were planned:

“Senior officials are increasingly convinced, however, that the ferocious nature of the Benghazi attack, in which rocket-propelled grenades were used, indicated it was not the result of spontaneous anger due to the video, called Innocence of Muslims. Patrick Kennedy, Under-Secretary at the State Department, said he was convinced the assault was planned due to its extensive nature and the proliferation of weapons.

There is growing belief that the attack was in revenge for the killing in a drone strike in Pakistan of Mohammed Hassan Qaed, an al-Qa’ida operative who was, as his nom-de-guerre Abu Yahya al-Libi suggests, from Libya, and timed for the anniversary of the 11 September attacks.

Senator Bill Nelson, a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said: “I am asking my colleagues on the committee to immediately investigate what role al-Qa’ida or its affiliates may have played in the attack and to take appropriate action.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/revealed-inside-story-of-us-envoys-assassination-8135797.html

“We’re watching the disintegration of two institutions right in front of our eyes, and we’re all wondering, are we the only ones who see it? We’re watching the disintegration of a presidency. We are looking at blatant, uncompromised incompetence. And we are witnessing corruption of another institution, the so-called mainstream media. They continue to descend into depths they’re not even aware of.”

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2012/09/13/we_re_witnessing_two_institutions_disintegrate_right_before_our_eyes


Posted by: Frank at September 13, 2012 10:39 PM
Comment #352896

The only way that I can read comments is by commenting myself. Weird!

Posted by: Rich at September 13, 2012 10:49 PM
Comment #352897

Obama will begin to drop in the polls in Florida. His anti-Israeli sentiment is going to lose Florida for him. He has lost all control of the Middle-East and the Democratic Party has shown themselves to not only have declared a war on religion, but also a war against Israel. I find these comments by Charles Krauthammer to go right in line with what Limbaugh has stated. The left will violently oppose this but the race is over; Obama has shown himself to be completely incompetent. There is a 3 day Rasmussen poll out today showing Romney with a lead over Obama. So it begins:

“What we are seeing on the screen is the meltdown, collapse of the Obama policy on the Muslim world,” Charles Krauthammer said on the panel segment of FOX News’ “Special Report” tonight. “The irony is that it began in Cairo, in the same place where the speech he made in the beginning of his presidency in which he said, you wanted a new beginning with mutual respect, implying under the other presidents, particularly Bush, there was a lack of mutual respect. Which was an insult to the United States, which had gone to war six times in the last 20 years on behalf of oppressed Muslims, in Kuwait, in Kosovo, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere.”


“So to imply that we somehow had mistreated Muslims which was the premise of his speech and how the Iraq War had inflamed the Arab world against us. Well there was no storming of the U.S. embassy in Cairo in those days,” the FOX News contributor and syndicated columnist said.


“What we’re seeing now is al-Qaeda developing in Libya, meltdown of our relations with Egypt, you have riots in Yemen, attacks on our embassy in Tunisia. This entire premise that we want to be loved and respected, we’ll apologize, has now yielded all of these results and these are the fruits of apology and retreat and lack of confidence in our own principles,”

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/09/13/krauthammer_were_seeing_the_collapse_of_the_obama_policy_on_the_muslim_world.html

Posted by: Frank at September 13, 2012 10:54 PM
Comment #352899

So Krauthammer favors dictatorships over democracies. Nice.

The losing side in the overthrow of Khaddafi did not go away just because the western alliance won. There are a lot of weapons and a lot of factions in Libya that are unhappy with the US in general, and the late Ambassador in particular. None of the enemies of the US in Libya needed any association with Al Qaida in order to be motivated enough to attack the embassy, or possess the weapons, or want to kill Ambassador Stevens.

Also, in case anyone was paying attention, the method of attack in Libya was completely out of character with
previous Al Qaida terrorist attacks.

Krauthammer is one of the biggest idiots in the media, and after his promoting all those lies about Iraq, and being so demonstrably, factually wrong- and being wrong in a way that contributed to the deaths of thousands of Americans, injuries to tens of thousands more, and contributing to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis… How on earth does this guy still have a job?

Posted by: phx8 at September 13, 2012 11:25 PM
Comment #352903

Responding to J2T2’s comment on the last article…because our embassy is in their country we have no right to do anything? Yes, we have a right to go into their country and kill because our embassy IS there and it was attacked. If there was another country that had an embassy here and it was attacked then yes, they would have a right to send troops in. I don’t care what country it is, if American soldiers and/or government officials are attacked then we need to strike back. So the US government should send employees overseas and do nothing to protect them? You’re a coward and an idiot.

Posted by: BZA at September 14, 2012 2:01 AM
Comment #353054

So BZA we have a right to kill foreign criminals, protestors and others without trial! You also want foreign troops on American soil to do the same to Americans! Yet I am the ignorant one. BZA We do have the responsibility to protect our embassy and the people who serve in the embassy from attacks. Your emotional response is exactly why conservatives are a danger to our country and to others as well. Acting out of hate and anger is cowardly and ignorant BZA. It is expected of conservatives such as Romney and his followers but it isn’t good policy. Let the cooler heads prevail.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 14, 2012 9:10 AM
Comment #353058

?

Posted by: Wilbur at September 14, 2012 9:25 AM
Comment #353059
So BZA we have a right to kill foreign criminals, protestors and others without trial!

That is what Obama has said and has been doing… actually, he has left out the ‘foreign’ part of your statement.

Posted by: Rhinehold at September 14, 2012 9:52 AM
Comment #353060

phx8; so your attacks on Krauthammer are based upon what…anti-Semitism, because he is Jewish?

Since he is Jewish, I would venture to say he knows a lot more about the Middle-East and how it works, than you do.

“So Krauthammer favors dictatorships over democracies. Nice.”

I did not read this, perhaps you could show us where he made this comment; that is, unless you are just parroting the talking points of Obama.

“So BZA we have a right to kill foreign criminals, protestors and others without trial! You also want foreign troops on American soil to do the same to Americans! Yet I am the ignorant one. BZA We do have the responsibility to protect our embassy and the people who serve in the embassy from attacks. Your emotional response is exactly why conservatives are a danger to our country and to others as well. Acting out of hate and anger is cowardly and ignorant BZA. It is expected of conservatives such as Romney and his followers but it isn’t good policy. Let the cooler heads prevail. “

Posted by: j2t2 at September 14, 2012 9:10 AM

J2t2, this has happened several times in history; but I will give you one example where the attackers were much like these Muslim terrorists and had the support of the host country:

“The Siege of the International Legations occurred during the Boxer Rebellion in the Chinese city of Beijing (Peking). Menaced by the Boxers, an anti-Christian, anti-foreign peasant movement, 900 soldiers and civilians, largely from Europe, Japan, and the United States, and about 2,800 Chinese Christians took refuge in the Beijing Legation Quarter. The Chinese government took the side of the Boxers. The foreigners and Chinese Christians in the Legation Quarter survived a 55-day siege by the Chinese Imperial Army and the Boxers. The siege was broken by an international military force which marched from the coast of China, defeated the Chinese army, and occupied Beijing.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_the_International_Legations_(Boxer_Rebellion)

It ended when a military force marched in; because the killing of Ambassadors is considered an act of war. But since the Democrats want to spend their time talking and not defending, it is Obama who really looks weak on foreign policy. In other words, a coward.

Posted by: Frank at September 14, 2012 10:01 AM
Comment #353061

Why is it so hard to protect our own people?

Posted by: Kathy at September 14, 2012 10:03 AM
Comment #353062

Frank has the Egyptian and Libyan governments backed the protestors/terrorists or have they become involved in catching the killers?

Posted by: j2t2 at September 14, 2012 10:51 AM
Comment #353063

Obama is not falling down in the polls. Some folks want to see this as a time when Romney can come from behind to repeat Reagan’s performance, but I have to inform you of something here: Romney’s further behind and Obama’s further ahead than Carter was in 1980.

BZA-
No, we have no right to go into their country and kill people, anymore than they had right to go onto our consulate’s grounds and kill people. Both are considered the sovereign territory of our respective countries.

Frank-
Rush. Always can count on that guy to bloviate on behalf of himself. He’s going to entertain the GOP right into an early grave if you don’t watch it.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 14, 2012 11:00 AM
Comment #353064

Krauthammer must not be very well informed if he gets so many fundamental issues wrong- wrong in the sense that, time and again, the course of action he advocates turns out disastrously wrong. The actions go wrong because Krauthammer’s fundamental assumptions are wrong.

In the past, the US supported ‘authoritarian’ governments because those dictatorships provided stability and feigned friendship. They could be bought. In some cases, the US armed them to the hilt, and eventually the only viable political institutions left were the government and its military.

When the US let Arab Spring flower, democracies replaced dictatorships. But after long histories of dictatorship, only one other organization offered apolitical alternative rooted in culture: Islam.

We’re seeing the results now. Sometimes it is hard to take. Sometimes it just seems stupid. However, this is part of an organic process of development. We hope to see stable, representative governments result, because governments that are truly representative are ultimtately better and more worthy allies, as frustrating as that might seem today. There are models out there, both good and bad, such as Turkey and Iran. Some of these Arab Spring countries will succeed. Others not. The Muslim Brotherhood may become a proponent of the political ideals we espouse. It can happen. So, the best we can do is be patient, and in the meantime, ensure host countries provide adequate security.

Posted by: phx8 at September 14, 2012 11:25 AM
Comment #353066

Commenting in order to read.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 14, 2012 11:27 AM
Comment #353068

This site is completely jacked. Comments I made on my Firefox browser don’t appear if I look at them on my Safari browser.
Think I’ll take a vacation from WB for a while — maybe eventually someone will be able to fix whatever they broke?

Posted by: Adrienne at September 14, 2012 11:43 AM
Comment #353069

Why is this site not working correctly?

Posted by: Billinflorida at September 14, 2012 11:54 AM
Comment #353071

J2t2, Egypt and Libya have no stable governments.

Stephen, you come on WB and you quote and link to leftist web site and when I link to Rush, your comment is like the rest of your socialist buddies; to attack Rush. At some point in time, why don’t you attempt to answer his charges instead of quoting the same leftist lines of personal attacks? No wonder I so frequently call you a “Dumbass”.

Here is another example from another leftist phx8:

“Krauthammer is one of the biggest idiots in the media, and after his promoting all those lies about Iraq, and being so demonstrably, factually wrong”

Krauthammer is a successful reporter, columnist, and doctor; tell me Stephen, why would your side personally attack Krauthammer, instead of answering his charges? Is this what the leftist “Dumbasses” do best; is this the golden plan of Saul Alinksy? To make personal attacks and never answer a question. What is the purpose of this site? Debate??? Okay, I quote Limbaugh or Krauthammer…and your side says, “they are idiots, they bloviate”. Nice debate Stephen, did you get your debating skills from MediaMatters online school of “how to debate 101”?

“When the US let Arab Spring flower, democracies replaced dictatorships. But after long histories of dictatorship, only one other organization offered apolitical alternative rooted in culture: Islam.” Phx8

Phx8, there are no democracies in the Middle-East except for Israel. The fundamental rights of a democracy are free speech and freedom of religion. Would you care to tell us where these fundamental rights exist? Obama was wrong about the Arab Spring, and he is totally out of touch with what is taking place in the Middle-East.

The Middle-East is in meltdown; Muslims are protesting against Jews and Americans in Europe; AUSTIN (KXAN) - The University of Texas is evacuating all of its buildings due to threats on campus after a caller claiming to be with al-Qaida said he placed bombs all over campus; Students at North Dakota State University in Fargo and the University of Texas in Austin have been ordered to evacuate their respective campuses this morning because of bomb threats; Mob Gathers Outside U.S. Embassy in London:

“[Updated at 12:23 p.m. ET] Nigerian military and police fired shots to disperse a crowd of protesters in the city of Jos, an eyewitness said.
About 2,000 people protesting the anti-Islamic film gathered at a central mosque, and security forces intervened when the crowd started moving toward the city center.
[Updated at 12:15 p.m. ET] Some protesters who scaled the gates of the U.S. Embassy in Tunis, Tunisia, reached a garden outside the building but have not breached the building itself, journalist Zeid Mhirsi reports.
Also, the thick, black smoke that we previously reported was near the Embassy is coming from burning vehicles on the Embassy grounds, Mhirsi reported.
Earlier, he reported that protesters took down a U.S. flag from a pole at the Embassy and replaced it with a black flag. Police were firing tear gas in an attempt to disperse them. (See 10:20 and 10:42 a.m. entries.) Hard-line Muslims known as Salafists were among the demonstrators, Mhirsi reported.
[Updated at 12:06 p.m. ET] Some Friday protests that hadn’t yet been mentioned in this blog post:
– In Afghanistan, hundreds of demonstrators in the eastern Nangarhar province burned a U.S. flag and chanted “Death to America” and “We condemn the film.” The demonstration lasted about an hour and ended peacefully, a local official said. The Afghan government has ordered an indefinite block of YouTube to prevent people there from watching the clips and staging violent protests.
– In Baghdad, Iraq, hundreds of followers of the radical Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr chanted “No to America, no to Israel.”
– In Jerusalem, Palestinians marched from the al-Aqsa mosque toward the U.S. Consulate, but were prevented from reaching the mission by Israeli riot forces.
– In Syria, hundreds gathered outside the U.S. Embassy in Damascus. Protesters waved placards that condemned the film and blamed the U.S. administration for allowing the production and broadcast of it, according to the state-run Syrian Arab News Agency.
– In Iran, the Islamic Propagation Coordination Council called for nationwide rallies Friday to protest the film and what it is calling a U.S.-backed plot against Muslims, according to the state-run IRNA news agency.
[Updated at 11:57 a.m. ET] An update on Friday’s protest outside the U.S. Embassy in Khartoum, Sudan: Journalist Isma’il Kushkush says no protesters have been able to get inside the compound, and that police and security forces appear to have the situation under control.
Small fires are burning nearby. Kushkush said he believes protesters set tires ablaze. For more on the Khartoum protests, including one at the German Embassy there, see the 9:54 and 8:42 a.m. entries.
[Updated at 11:52 a.m. ET] Ninety-three protesters have been arrested in Egypt since Thursday night, Egyptian Interior Ministry spokesman Alaa Mahmoud said. Forty-eight officers have been injured, he added.
[Updated at 11:40 a.m. ET] Protesters in southern India have been arrested on suspicion of throwing rocks at the U.S. Consulate in Chennai, the city police commissioner said. As many as 200 protesters were demonstrating in front of the building, but the number arrested was not reported. There were no reported injuries.
[Updated at 10:57 a.m. ET] Video from Tunisia’s capital shows thick, black smoke rising from an area near the U.S. Embassy. It’s not clear what was on fire.
Protesters there had taken down a U.S. flag from the embassy property and replaced it with a black flag, journalist Zeid Mhirsi reported. Police fired tear gas at protesters as some of them climbed the property’s walls.
[Updated at 10:42 a.m. ET] Protesters have taken down a U.S. flag from a pole at the U.S. Embassy in Tunis, Tunisia, and replaced it with a black flag, journalist Zeid Mhirsi reports.
Earlier, Mhirsi reported protesters were climbing the building’s gates, and police fired tear gas in an attempt to disperse them. (See 10:20 a.m. entry.) Hard-line Muslims known as Salafists were among the demonstrators, Mhirsi reported.
[Updated at 10:25 a.m. ET] A U.S. Marine Corps security team is being sent to help protect U.S. diplomatic installations in Yemen, including the Embassy in Saana, a senior U.S. official said, according to CNN’s Barbara Starr.
Earlier today, Yemeni police opened fire to stop protesters from reaching the U.S. Embassy in Saana, witnesses said (see 7:31 a.m. entry).
The protection team is similar to the team of 50 Marines that was sent earlier this this week to Tripoli, Libya, in the wake of the attack in Benghazi.
[Updated at 10:20 a.m. ET] Protesters are climbing the gates of the U.S. Embassy in Tunis, Tunisia, and police have fired tear gas in an attempt to disperse them, journalist Zeid Mhirsi reports.
Some protesters, who are about 20 meters outside the U.S. Embassy gates, are throwing rocks at the police, Mhirsi says. He says
that some protesters are waving black flags as they attempt to vandalize the gates.
[Updated at 10:15 a.m. ET] U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is scheduled to receive the remains of the U.S. diplomats killed in Libya at Andrews Air Force Base at 2 p.m. ET Friday.
[Updated at 10:13 a.m. ET] Add Tunisia to the list of Friday’s protests. Hundreds of protesters have left Friday prayers and are heading to the U.S. Embassy in a neighborhood in Tunis, journalist Zeid Mhirsi reported. There is a strong Tunisian police presence in the area.
Hard-line Muslims known as Salafists were among the demonstrators, who were in pickup trucks and on foot.
[Updated at 9:54 a.m. ET] Ron Hawkins, a spokesman for the U.S. Embassy in Khartoum, said that because Friday is a non-work day, most of the staff and Embassy personnel are not there as protesters gather outside the building. As far as security goes, Marines are assigned there, and local police officers were sent there earlier Friday as a precautionary measure, Hawkins said.
Earlier Friday, a fire was set at the vacated German Embassy as protesters gathered there. The protest at the U.S. building so has been peaceful, journalist Isma’il Kamal Kushkush said (see 8:42 a.m. entry).
[Updated at 9:31 a.m. ET] More information from Khartoum, Sudan: Protesters have gathered outside the U.S. Embassy there, a journalist at the scene said. The demonstration is peaceful so far.
Earlier today, protesters in Khartoum set the German Embassy on fire and also rallied outside the nearby UK Embassy (see 8:42 a.m. entry). The German Embassy was vacated before the protests.
[Updated at 9:24 a.m. ET] Lebanon has joined the list of Friday protests. One person was killed by police in Tripoli, Lebanon, after a group of armed men stormed a KFC restaurant amid protests in the city, Lebanese security forces told CNN.
About 40 armed men were spotted among 3,000 protesters, officials said.
Gen. Bassam Ayoubi, of the Lebanese internal security forces, said a group of armed men stormed the KFC and asked people to leave. Ayoubi said that the armed men then set the KFC on fire, at which time police arrived and began to fire at the armed men, killing at least one of them. Twenty-five were injured, he said, but it wasn’t clear which of the injured were on which side.”

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/14/witnesses-police-fire-on-protesters-near-u-s-embassy-in-yemen/

Obama fails to attend intelligence briefings, Obama tells us the war on terror is over, Obama tells us we are safe. Iran has nukes, Russia and China are no the move, Israel is on their own, and Obama is at a fundraiser in Vegas…Obama fiddles while Rome burns.

There is no leftist as liberal as Bob Beckel; last night on Fox’s “The Five”, he said Obama should not have failed to answer press questions and then jump on a plane to Vegas for a campaign fund raiser. Obama is AOL.

Posted by: Frank at September 14, 2012 12:34 PM
Comment #353072

Obama DOJ and Holder quietly drop lawsuit against Florida. I wonder why? Can anyone say, “they didn’t have a case”? What a slease bag group of people in the WH.

“Early voting: Why Justice dropped its challenge of Florida plan”

http://news.yahoo.com/early-voting-why-justice-dropped-challenge-florida-plan-234046723.html

Posted by: Billinflorida at September 14, 2012 12:50 PM
Comment #353074

C&J, you couldn’t have said that better. My fear is how Obama handles the situation from here on out.

Posted by: Ted at September 14, 2012 1:05 PM
Comment #353075

In middle of a battle, how often do you see everyone stop, take off their helmets, bow their heads and render a eulogy to a fallen commrade? The answer is “never”, so quit pounding on Romney for addressing his perceived cause of the attacks first, and his fear that trying to appease the terrorists would compound the problem further, resulting in more loss of life. This kind of criticism is simply a cover-up for ineptitude on the current administrations part. No Marine guards in Libya and no ammo in Egypt..this after being warned of eminent danger. I’m surprised that no one has blamed all this on Bush.

Posted by: John Johnson at September 14, 2012 1:18 PM
Comment #353076

“I’m surprised that no one has blamed all this on Bush”

Give em time John. If the Romeny distraction doesn’t work, the ‘blame Bush’ rhetoric will probably be next.

Posted by: kctim at September 14, 2012 2:41 PM
Comment #353077
Obama is not falling down in the polls. Some folks want to see this as a time when Romney can come from behind to repeat Reagan’s performance, but I have to inform you of something here: Romney’s further behind and Obama’s further ahead than Carter was in 1980.

Stephen, I would suggest stop using moveon.org polling for your source…

RealPolitics uses aggregates and show that Obama is currently 3 points ahead of Romney. We can all have our discussions on which poll is better than another, but remember, on this date 4 years ago, McCain was 2.4 points up on Obama. Don’t think it can change between now and election day? Just as I wouldn’t trust a poll that has Romney up by 6 (there is one you know, and it isn’t Rasmussen) I don’t think I would trust the Carville polling that has Obama up by 6 either…

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/election_2012_vs_election_2008_four_years_ago_today.html

Posted by: Rhinehold at September 14, 2012 2:58 PM
Comment #353078

Stephen, yes we do have a right to send marines, army or whatever if our embassy is attacked. That embassy is considered our territory. If we don’t have a right to respond then government has no right to station Americans in those places. In which case the government leaders are fully at fault for putting them in harms way with no intention of responding when crap like this goes down. If you’re admitting that our governments at fault (not excluding this administration) then come out and say it. As long as officials are stationed in these places by the US government then yes we absolutely have a obligation to respond to attacks. Regardless of your opinions once they are over there that’s our governments duty. You can try to dance around this all you want but it can’t be any clearer than that.

Posted by: BZA at September 14, 2012 3:24 PM
Comment #353079

Obama is not falling down in the polls. Some folks want to see this as a time when Romney can come from behind to repeat Reagan’s performance, but I have to inform you of something here: Romney’s further behind and Obama’s further ahead than Carter was in 1980.
Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 14, 2012

Gee, thanks for the update. I won’t bother to vote now. Polling is about as dependable as Harry Potter forming an alliance with Lord Voldemort.

Democracy is not a “magic” word that necessarily brings civilization to a nation. A democracy is defined by more than just allowing people to vote.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 14, 2012 4:07 PM
Comment #353080

obama is an amazing human being. He understands all our security needs and threats despite missing half of the security briefings.

His priorities are simply inspired. He chooses the Letterman TV show versus meeting with the leader of our best ally in the middle east.

He has told us that by supporting the “Arab Spring” the world would be more peaceful and we would be more secure.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 14, 2012 4:51 PM
Comment #353083

John Johnson,
“No ammo in Egypt”

That is a lie. A baldfaced lie. It was spread around the right wing echo chamber by the usual liars. Here is the memorandum from the Ambassador in Egypt:

“The Ambassador did not impose restrictions on weapons or weapons status on the Marine Corps Embassy Security Group (MCESG) detachment. The MCESG Marines in Cairo were allowed to have live ammunition in their weapons. The Ambassador and Regional Security Officer have been completely and appropriately engaged with the security situation. Reports of Marines not being able to have their weapons loaded per direction from the Ambassador are not accurate.”

The lie started with a blog called “Nightwatch,” and quickly spread to various outlets, including FOX. The story was never verified but the lie was spread anyway.

For shame, John Johnson. You shouldn’t listen to those people.

Otherwise you’ll start believing all kinds of things… The Republican Convention was a success. Clint Eastwood talking to an empty chair was awesome. The Democratic Convention was a failure. And all those polls showing otherwise are part of a huge conspiracy.

All those condemnations of Romney by various editorial boards throughout the media are part of a conspiracy too, condemnations for rushing out an inaccurate statement blaming the Obama administration for sympathizing with the attackers; and Romney made that statement even knowing that at least one American was dead, yet he said nothing about that; then strolling off the stage with a smirk on his face.

Royal Flush,
Obama is right. In the long run, self-determination and freedom from dictatorships and authoritarian regimes will make the world more peaceful and more secure.

Or do you prefer dictatorships and authoritarian regimes? Not down with freedom, eh?

Posted by: phx8 at September 14, 2012 5:18 PM
Comment #353084

Sorry, phx8, a Marine with an unloaded weapon and a rube who won’t let him protect the embassy grounds is the same thing. Having a few of them doing crumpled swan dives off the top of the wall with a round through their chest would have put halt to the growing boldness the gangs showed. It made me think that Jimmy Carter was running.the show.

Here’s another thought for you…if you are a Christian or Jew, you should be aware that the Bible says that there will never be peace in the Middle East. We are stupid for hanging out there. Come home, sent out the spies, sent a drone to do the dirty work. Take the billions saved, shore up the borders and start running trucks on natural gas so we never have to buy a drop of oil from them ever again.

Posted by: John Johnson at September 14, 2012 5:46 PM
Comment #353085
In middle of a battle, how often do you see everyone stop, take off their helmets, bow their heads and render a eulogy to a fallen commrade? …..

John are you seriously trying to get a free pass for Romney’s foolishness by telling us Mitt was in the middle of a “battle”! Have you forgot he doubled down after having time to get it together?

Just think if Mitt got that 3am phone call guys and the best he could do was falsely accuse someone of appeasing the enemy. I can hear it now, Mitt was in the middle of a battle, he was all shook up it’s not his fault.

Forgive him for playing partisan politics when the country was being attacked! Forgive Romney for raising the false “appeasement” issue! You have got to be kidding me. This was his time to shine and he not only failed to shine he showed us what a foreign policy failure he is.

Face it conservatives, Romney blew it and Obama showed the leadership skills needed in the time of crisis. You should be thanking Romney for exposing his weakness as a presidential candidate before the election guys. It’s not to late to vote for Gary Johnson guys. He did a much better job than Romney did in handling the crisis.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/09/mitt-romney-drops-his-3-am-phone-call/262285/

Posted by: j2t2 at September 14, 2012 5:52 PM
Comment #353086

I’m not buying that bull one bit. Here’s what I posted earlier on the subject. It makes no difference whether it was made before or after the raids began. The early embassy statement was justifiably criticized by Romney.

“It’s a sissy statement made at the time to appease the mob. It basically says, “We agree with you. Those bad people should not be talking poorly about your religious icon. Please leave us alone”, and those stupid people decipher it as “These Americans are a bunch of wusses. We can have our way with them.”

Here’s what I predict O will do, and no doubt you will support…he will keep giving them money, calling them our friends, keep building roads and schools, and continue missing morning security briefings because he knows it all.

Posted by: John Johnson at September 14, 2012 6:15 PM
Comment #353087

Jack Johnson,
I am not a Christian or Jew or Muslim, and I don’t particularly care about the Bible or other religious texts. If they help people do good works, that’s fine. I absolutely reject the idea of prophecy. I believe in free will. Events are not foreordained because that means determinism rules, that we’re all just being cruelly jerked around in a clockwork.

I’m not a pacifist, but I do reject violent solutions whenever possible. So far, it seems to me that the Obama administration is handling the situation about as well as possible, considering no one had any idea this was coming even one week ago.

Romney, on the other hand, blew it. j2t2, you called it. This should have been easy for Romney; he could easily have mouthed some platitudes, kept his distance from the issue, and hoped unpredictable events tanked Obama’s political future; but for whatever reason, he made a fool of himself, and proved himself utterly unpresidential and unfit to represent Americans.

I think he was listening to those Neocons on his foreign affairs staff. I’ve commented about that before, and now the chickens showed up saying ‘where’s my roost, Willard?’

Posted by: phx8 at September 14, 2012 6:23 PM
Comment #353088

?

Posted by: Wilbur at September 14, 2012 6:27 PM
Comment #353089

Everyone knows that peaceful demonstrators bring RPG’s to the event.

phx8 writes; “Obama is right. In the long run, self-determination and freedom from dictatorships and authoritarian regimes will make the world more peaceful and more secure.”

Only one who engages in magical thinking could possibly believe that the Muslim Brotherhood will blossom into what you describe. One of their very first public statements after gaining power in Egypt was to call for the annihilation of Israel. How many times must you hear the goals and aims of Middle East Muslims before it sinks into your brain?

I know that the left must defend obama no matter what. We know why that is true, and it has nothing to do with good governance.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 14, 2012 6:29 PM
Comment #353090

All

One thing this wave of anti-American violence demonstrates is that much of the criticism of Bush was wrong. I wrote at the time that it was them mostly to blame not us. About now, my liberal friends must agree with me. Obviously, they still should not hate us even after nearly four years of Obama.

Obama and Democrats are learning that “resets” and the “why can’t we just all get along?” idea are not sufficient foundations on which to base American security.

Like Jimmy Carter, President Obama has learned that it doesn’t help for America to be nice to people who hate us and are working against our interests.

Anti-Americanism is not primarily the result of American policies. Most of the people in the Middle East could not pass even the most simple test about what our policy really is. Most of the hatred expressed by our enemies in region results from their own (often justified) feelings of inferiority and failure. They used to be the big dogs, but then a few hundred years ago, not our fault, things started to fall apart.

We had to kick ass in Libya before, when Thomas Jefferson and James Madison had to take down the Barbary pirates was only the first.

We should stand with our president, now that he (we hope) has a better understanding of the world.

To my liberal friends, I will say that we Americans can indeed be arrogant and we don’t always act in great ways. But much of the trouble we have with others results from their faults as much as ours.

Countries, like people, tend to be messed up because of internal faults. This is true historically and today. The Greeks fought among themselves, which made it possible for Macedonians and Romans to conquer them. The Roman Empire collapsed from within and the Barbarians only kicked in a rotten door. The great Muslim empires stopped innovating and progressing hundreds of years ago. They did not keep up with the West. Leaders blame outsiders and we are currently the biggest outsider.

Imagine a Middle East leader telling the truth. He would have to say, after years of Arab Socialism, Fundamentalism and lots of other things, we have just screwed up. We have squandered the unearned wealth we got from oil and made ourselves nearly completely dependent on foreign technologies and expertise. We have not shared the wealth with each other or succeeded in creating a truly innovative domestic class. Individual countries, even small ones like Finland have greater GDPs than all of us together and more books are published each year in Greek, a language spoken in one small country, than in Arabic with many millions of speakers. We messed up and only we can fix it. The calls to violence and appeals to a mythical past are hurting us even more. We can learn from the West and especially from Israel, which occupies land similar to much of our but has made itself much better than we are.

How long would this leader stay in office? Much easier to blame others. But we should not enable this lie by blaming ourselves.

Posted by: C&J at September 14, 2012 6:35 PM
Comment #353091

Anybody who thinks shooting a protester off a wall will quiet things down is kidding themselves. It might be necessary, but the minute that happens, you’ll see them declare that fellow a martyr, and use that as an excuse to get angrier.

I know the right must attack Obama no matter what. They have to pretend that if they were in difficult situations they’d have everything under control.

Well, Obama’s administration was handed the Iraq war in its bloody 7th year, Afghanistan in its 9th, and Bin Laden still on the lose. And in case nobody noticed, the reason this all happened wasn’t because some consulate sent out a sympathetic olive branch, but because some felon fraudster and some religious nuts in our country deliberately provoked the conflict. By your measure those people showed strength and leadership, yet we are worse off for what they did.

Tell me, were folks any less sensitive to religious offenses under the supposedly stronger Bush?

This is about Mitt Romney, and the Republicans in general, trying to reclaim supremacy on foreign policy, without having to do anything really substantial, and the shame of it is, when Reagan was presented a chance to do what Romney did, Reagan declined, if for no other Reason, than because it would look tacky. Obama held off on making a statement until they knew the situation. Romney just shot off his mouth.

It’s time to stop kidding ourselves that we’d somehow be stronger if we just shot off our mouths. That’s just what diehard Republicans are saying to avoid facing the depth of the screw-up.

It’s time for the us to stop following the stupid and the arrogant into their folly.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 14, 2012 6:49 PM
Comment #353092

Prior to the Arab Spring death by drought, and hailed as a success by obama and hillary, foreign affairs were not high on the political agenda being considered by the electorate.

Now, if the unrest and violence continues in the ME, it will certainly be discussed during the upcoming debates. obama will have to defend his failed foreign policy along with his failed domestic policy. Romney now has two fronts of attack on this flummoxed president. There will be no teleprompters to aid him from sticking his foot even deeper into his lying mouth. This guy is very gaff prone and doesn’t do well under pressure which is one reason he hates press conferences.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 14, 2012 6:49 PM
Comment #353093

We’ll let’s see….it seems to me that strength is the only thing the loons do understand. You think the terrorists in Iraq calmed down because we rubbed their backs until they went to sleep? How about in Afghanistan? All the love we’re showing them working out? Yeah, I think blowing a few to pieces stops others in their tracks. I know that telling them that you agree that anyone trying to hurt their feelings is a bad, bad person doesn’t.

Posted by: John Johnson at September 14, 2012 7:13 PM
Comment #353094

“Here’s another thought for you…if you are a Christian or Jew, you should be aware that the Bible says that there will never be peace in the Middle East. We are stupid for hanging out there. Come home, sent out the spies, sent a drone to do the dirty work. Take the billions saved, shore up the borders and start running trucks on natural gas so we never have to buy a drop of oil from them ever again.”

Posted by: John Johnson at September 14, 2012 5:46 PM

I agree with you John Johnson 100% concerning the Middle-East. However, the money saved cannot be used to shore up the borders because Obama has already promised to use it to pay down the debt…wait a minute…he can’t do that because the money to pay for the war is being borrowed from China. So…Obama is going to borrow money from China in order to pay down the debt. If this sounds confusing, it’s because Obama is an idiot and the left hangs breathlessly to every word that comes from his messiah mouth.

J2t2 said:

“John are you seriously trying to get a free pass for Romney’s foolishness by telling us Mitt was in the middle of a “battle”! Have you forgot he doubled down after having time to get it together?”

I don’t think anyone has to give a free pass to Romney for anything. He certainly looked more presidential than the idiot in Vegas.

Phx8 said:

“I am not a Christian or Jew or Muslim, and I don’t particularly care about the Bible or other religious texts. If they help people do good works, that’s fine. I absolutely reject the idea of prophecy. I believe in free will. Events are not foreordained because that means determinism rules, that we’re all just being cruelly jerked around in a clockwork.”

So, you would have been one of the idiots on the outside asking to be let in Noah’s Ark? Saying, “I believe now, let me in”.

“I’m not a pacifist, but I do reject violent solutions whenever possible. So far, it seems to me that the Obama administration is handling the situation about as well as possible, considering no one had any idea this was coming even one week ago.”

Sorry phx8, but the information is still coming in on that one. Evidently, there were warnings, but Obama missed those briefings.

“Romney, on the other hand, blew it. j2t2, you called it. This should have been easy for Romney; he could easily have mouthed some platitudes, kept his distance from the issue, and hoped unpredictable events tanked Obama’s political future; but for whatever reason, he made a fool of himself, and proved himself utterly unpresidential and unfit to represent Americans.”

Romney did what Obama should have done and it will cost Obama the election. Romney looked presidential, Obama looked MIA.

Posted by: Frank at September 14, 2012 7:23 PM
Comment #353095

“I absolutely reject the idea of prophecy. I believe in free will.”

The Bible is like no other book in the world. It is filled with internal evidence that it is the Word of God. No other religion has a book filled with prophecies fulfilled one right after the other. The few books that have even attempted this have been proven to be written by false prophets who cannot foretell the future. But you can trust in the Bible, which is the true Word of God, who proves that He is the Author of it by fulfilled prophecies. As He said more than 2700 years ago:

“… I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done …” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

phx8 seems to regard Biblical prophecy as predicting the outcome of political elections. God’s scale is so much larger than our limited ability to understand.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 14, 2012 7:44 PM
Comment #353096

C&J, I have to completely disagree with you. Obama and the left do not have the mental capacity to understand the mind of the Middle-East. Just as the Muslims are ignorant of how the west works; Obama and the left are ignorant of how Muslims think. But I will go one step further; the Muslims don’t understand and don’t want to understand, and the left don’t understand and don’t want to understand. You give Obama way to much credit to think that he or his worshippers could possibly understand the real world.

Stephen says:

“Anybody who thinks shooting a protester off a wall will quiet things down is kidding themselves. It might be necessary, but the minute that happens, you’ll see them declare that fellow a martyr, and use that as an excuse to get angrier.”

I don’t care if they are a martyr or not; send em all to hell. Those people don’t need an excuse to get angry, they are born angry. Stephen, you of all people should be able to understand this; the life of a leftist is spent in perpetual anger.

“This is about Mitt Romney, and the Republicans in general, trying to reclaim supremacy on foreign policy,”

No Stephen, Obama is going to hand foreign policy to the Republicans. Obama looks like an amateurish buffoon, telling everyone, “I am president, I am president”. Obama policy is handing Romney the presidency.

“We’ll let’s see….it seems to me that strength is the only thing the loons do understand. You think the terrorists in Iraq calmed down because we rubbed their backs until they went to sleep? How about in Afghanistan? All the love we’re showing them working out? Yeah, I think blowing a few to pieces stops others in their tracks. I know that telling them that you agree that anyone trying to hurt their feelings is a bad, bad person doesn’t.”

Posted by: John Johnson at September 14, 2012 7:13 PM

Good point, why do you suppose Israel has been able to keep the hordes of Muslims at bay since 1948? They kill 4; Israel kills 400… simple as that. The only thing these violent people understand is violence. When they hit; you hit back 4 times as hard. The idea of talk is weakness t these people. When Hillary and Obama want to talk, they view them as weak infidels.

Posted by: Frank at September 14, 2012 7:45 PM
Comment #353097

Royal, you are so correct. There are prophecies being fulfilled as we speak. These alliances being formed in the world; the events taking place at such a fast pace; and even the position of America as a non-participant is taking place before our very eyes. These liberals on WB will be the first in line to receive the mark of the beast.

Posted by: BIF at September 14, 2012 7:52 PM
Comment #353098

Royal Flush,

Who said this in 2003: “Sixty years of Western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe - because in the long run, stability cannot be purchased at the expense of liberty,” “As long as the Middle East remains a place where freedom does not flourish, it will remain a place of stagnation, resentment and violence ready for export.”

- “We have a stake not just in the stability of nations, but in the self-determination of individuals.”

Who promoted the “freedom agenda” for the Middle East?

Who chided the Obama administration for its initial “realist” position on the Middle East?

Did not conservatives argue in 2011 that Obama belatedly adopted the Bush’s Middle East policy during the emergence of the “Arab Spring?” “Note how even Obama’s rationale matches Bush’s. Bush argued that because the roots of 9/11 were to be found in the deflected anger of repressed Middle Eastern peoples, our response would require a democratic transformation of the region. http://www.sentinelsource.com/opinion/columnists/guest/obama-adopts-bush-s-middle-east-policy-by-charles-krauthammer/article_2adf03b4-7ac2-54d5-8046-05ead3969f67.html

So, conservatives were for it before they were against it.

Posted by: Rich at September 14, 2012 7:56 PM
Comment #353100

“A God Who Hates” is a good read if one wishes to understand the Muslim belief system and from where they get their hatred of all who are not just like them. I purchased my copy on Amazon

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 14, 2012 7:58 PM
Comment #353102

Rich…are you really using Bush to justify obama’s actions? I know obama has followed Bush in many ways, but does that make it correct?

One can imagine obama responding to a question about the ME violence by saying…Bush made me do it!

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 14, 2012 8:04 PM
Comment #353103

?

Posted by: wilbur at September 14, 2012 8:19 PM
Comment #353105

.

Posted by: will at September 14, 2012 9:42 PM
Comment #353106

“But we should not enable this lie by blaming ourselves.”

C&J,

I would like to remind you that conservative policy (Bush administration) during the 2000s contained a large helping of self blame. That self blame centered around historical US and Western policy supporting dictatorships that suppressed self determination and freedom in Middle Eastern countries. “Sixty years of Western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe..” GW Bush, 2003.

The cornerstone of that policy centered around the concept that self determination and political freedom in Middle Eastern countries would inevitably result in a coalescing with US values and a common interest. The “freedom agenda” of conservative neocon policy discounted the possibility that self determination could potentially result in adversarial governments dominated by radical Islamists.

Despite the cautious initial “realist” approach of the Obama/Clinton policies in the Middle East, they eventually embraced the “Arab Spring.”

I am not being critical of the support by either Bush for his “freedom agenda” and eventually Obama/Clinton for the popular uprisings in the Middle East. How could anyone? We are a nation that is proud of its revolution and its commitment to the principals of self determination.

I am, however, critical of the recent backtracking by conservatives of their support for popular uprisings and freedom in the Middle East. You got what you ostensibly wanted. Now, you don’t like the results (popularly elected Islamic dominated governments). For crying out loud, do you not understand what you have been promoting as policy for the last decade?

Romney is critical of Obama’s approach in the Middle East? What is his alternative? What would he have done differently? How does his approach differ from the conservative approach supporting popular political freedoms of the last decade. Reverse course and send a division of Marines to have defended Mubarik? Support Gaddafi? Support Assad?

Sometimes the outcomes are messy. But, lets be honest about the policy.


Posted by: Rich at September 14, 2012 10:57 PM
Comment #353107
“It’s a sissy statement made at the time to appease the mob. It basically says, “We agree with you. Those bad people should not be talking poorly about your religious icon. Please leave us alone”, and those stupid people decipher it as “These Americans are a bunch of wusses. We can have our way with them.”

John, The movie these guys are using as their excuse to target American embassies is a piece of crap. Surely you do not expect the US government to endorse the movie. The embassy people did the right thing by letting everyone know the US government did not approve of the movie. This is not appeasement it is telling the truth. It wasn’t a sissy statement it was a simple truth. Agreeing that the movie is a piece of crap is not wrong John.


All the love we’re showing them working out? Yeah, I think blowing a few to pieces stops others in their tracks. I know that telling them that you agree that anyone trying to hurt their feelings is a bad, bad person doesn’t.

John if your strategy is such a proven method why are these guys attacking our embassies? After all Bin Laden and most of his crew are dead. SO are hundreds of thousands of Iraqi’s and Afghan’s. According to your theory they should have been stopped in their tracks long ago. Yet here they are firing rockets at our embassies. Seems to me you don’t know anything about these people.


I don’t think anyone has to give a free pass to Romney for anything. He certainly looked more presidential than the idiot in Vegas.

Frank seriously! You accept the line of crap John is trying to push about Romney being in the midst of a “battle” and therefore not responsible for his “party over country” prattle two nights ago! You will truly fall for anything movement leaders tell you to.

I can only say you have topped the “Rmoney’s in battle” line with the funniest line to date from you “Romney looked presidential”. Do you mean when he was smirking as he left the stage. He has you guys wrapped evidently. Romney looked like a clown Frank. He proved his lack of character with his falsehoods. When Americans were being killed in the embassy in Libya Romney was trying to tear the country apart with his lies and lack of knowledge on foreign policy. How presidential is that? Is the bar really that low for conservatives? Frank running the government isn’t a circus and we don’t need no clown. Take a look at Gary Johnson or mark my words you will be whining about Romney, as you do about GWB now, not being a conservative in a few short years should he actually win this thing.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 14, 2012 11:04 PM
Comment #353108

To Rich@ 7:56. I’m a conservative independent, Rich. I left the Repub party back in 2007. I’ve always been against nation building using our sons and daughters when many of them come home in a body bag. Wars are meant to be won as swiftly as possible with the most lethal weapons available. Fat cat politicians and ego maniacs with lots of gold on their chests seem to have forgotten this. There is no reason for us to have troops on the ground anywhere in the Middle East. Clandestine activity and drones is all we need. Both Repub and Dem presidents seem to succumb to the Pentagon’s always wanting more. I am looking for one who is smart enough to realize that we have more weapons and technology available to us than any potential enemies, and that if we are willing to use them as designed, and show them just one time that this is true, we will not need boots on the ground in any hotspots.

Posted by: John Johnson at September 14, 2012 11:10 PM
Comment #353109

Royal,

What I am saying is that conservative neocon policy toward the Middle East in the last decade was decidedly pro revolution and self determination. It was based upon the belief that freedom and self determination would be in the best interests of the US.

Now, conservatives are having some buyer’s remorse about that sentiment. They apparently don’t like the outcome. Obama should have magically made those Egyptians vote for Western oriented politicians or stood by Mubarik with greater support and force.

What a crock. You got what you asked for and now blame somebody else for the outcome.

Posted by: Rich at September 14, 2012 11:12 PM
Comment #353110

John Johnson,

Then you should be a huge fan of Obama who has gone after radical Islamists and al-Qaeda with a vengeance using drones, smart weapons and special forces. The recent killing in Libya of our ambassador is thought to be related to a drone attack killing a high ranking al-Qaeda member of Libyan nationality in Pakistan in June.

Posted by: Rich at September 14, 2012 11:19 PM
Comment #353111

j2t2 at September 14, 2012 11:04 PM

It was a weak, whinny attempt to appease. Surely, there is no denying this. Everything else is moot.

What does OBL and many of his lieutenants being dead have to do with anything? The ignorant masses follow their radical clerics like many ignorant sheep follow Obama. He’s a good public speaker and he tells them what they want to hear ( 21 virgins vs 21 more months of freebies).

Posted by: John Johnson at September 14, 2012 11:21 PM
Comment #353112

To Rich at September 14, 2012 11:19 PM

That is the one aspect of his presidency that I think he is getting right, but we are still building roads and schools and making their crooked leaders millionaires. He gets failing grades for everything else.

Posted by: John Johnson at September 14, 2012 11:27 PM
Comment #353114

???

Posted by: Adrienne at September 15, 2012 12:54 AM
Comment #353116

just checking comments

Posted by: Rich at September 15, 2012 6:55 AM
Comment #353118

Rich

I would like to remind you that I mentioned that very thing in my post above. I am trying to take this out of the blame Obama-Bush paradigm. If anyone is to blame, it the the pinheads who are willing to kill because of an Internet movie and the evil people who manipulate them to do it.

My point is that the Middle East if full of trouble, few of which are CAUSED by us. We should indeed be realistic to understand that we are neither the villain nor the savior and should reject both roles.

The Muslim world has been in decline for 500 years. Many there look for people to blame. It ain’t us.

Posted by: C&J at September 15, 2012 7:45 AM
Comment #353122

.

Posted by: w at September 15, 2012 9:56 AM
Comment #353123

John Johnson-
You, sir, have no notion of what real strength is. Sometimes, it’s endurance. Sometimes, it’s intelligence. Sometimes, it’s not taking the bait, and getting more violent in return, like the terrorists often want us to be. Sometimes projecting a sense of calm and implacability does us more favors, since it tells those who would try to make us panic or lash out that we will not dance to their tune. That we aren’t some small nation that fears to be thought weak, but a giant that can take the small blows and walk right through it.

Take the supposed gaffe Obama made, saying “they aren’t our enemy, but they aren’t our ally.” What some would suppose as a risky comment, an error, was in fact (and many people saw this), a very smart way to remind the Muslim Brotherhood led government that those who keep their butts on the fence pick splinters out of their ass later. Since they’re dependent to us about aid, it sent them scrambling to us to confirm that we were allies.

Bam.

Sometimes the best way to win a conflict is to play a different game. The Terrorists would have us killing people left and right. They want folks blinded by the need for revenge. We don’t need to play that game. We need to switch the situation around. Libyans died defending our embassy, and protested in favor of us after the deaths. Why? Because Obama, about year before hand, decided to intervene, but let his intervention be one where we put our thumb on the scale and let our airpower cancel out Qaddafi’s advantages.

The proper use of strength is more effective than responding to every provocation.

On a separate issue, could you be a good man and tell me why so many folks call themselves independents, and then turn around and say the same things and elect the same people?

As far as nation building goes, the problem is trying to start that up in nations we haven’t gotten done fighting in. Nation building is what you do after the war is won and over and done with. Bush declared victory too quickly, and therefore started the nation building while the enemy still had the ability to undermine our efforts.

Too much foreign policy seems to be based on the notion that if somebody screwed up a certain policy, attempting that policy was the problem. No, nation building is not bad, just trying to do it when the peace is unsecure. We had our enemies defeated after WWII. That’s why it worked. No, sometimes you do need to fight two wars at once. But you shouldn’t do that by choice, and you shouldn’t keep budgeting for two wars after you’ve finished the wars. So on and so forth. And yes, technology can help, but technology can’t replace everything. It’s arguable, and in fact true, that Donald Rumsfeld tried to make up for his short numbers in Iraq with the use of our advanced technology. What he found was that occupations, even in our time, require more people than he was willing to deploy.

In other words, somebody already tried your approach, and it didn’t work. Now, Obama was able to ensure Qaddafi’s fall with the help of our technology, but he had ground forces in there in the form of the Libyan rebels. We were able to quickly push the Taliban out of power years earlier, but again, we had the Afghan forces to do that.

C&J-
People have said much the same about us at times. Every paradigm of civilization declines over time, and is simultaneously replaced by something else. In very few cases do you see cultures truly outright destroyed. the problem in those countries is that their culture is the consequence of our earlier colonialism. They weren’t allowed to grow out of their earlier traditions like we were, but were instead forced to abandon them for traditions that had them living as second class citizens to foreigners in their own countries.

They have to willingly move on from that, and the challenge is aiding them in that process despite the volatility that comes with the anger of having been made less, all those years ago.

Frank-
The President missed the meetings, not the briefings. Besides, from what I hear, Bush was briefed repeatedly on the fact that terrorists were seeking to strike within our borders before 9/11. It’s not just showing up at a meeting. The President had the information, and he has the staffers on hand if he wants to talk to them.

Romney did not look presidential. He looked like a desperate fraud looking to make himself look tougher on the backs of dead much braver than him. The negative response was bipartisan and severe. And once again, his negative attack isn’t one of substance, but of false claims which can be disproven just by looking at the evidence.

And no, the protestors aren’t born angry. You put them under a President who spends much of their lives trying to put the terror of the state in them, who covers up for corruption and the abuse of power, all with our country helping to prop them up, and what they do is they grow up angry, grow up believing us their enemy.

Stephen, you of all people should be able to understand this; the life of a leftist is spent in perpetual anger.

That’s news to me. I could say the same about you, but then I would sharing in your error. I figure you have some part of your life where you’re not raging at the left for not getting what you see to be obviously right. It’s just not when you’re at a keyboard. :-)

Oh, and Frank, has killing 400 for every 4 won the battle for Israel? You can pretend that body counts win wars, but in truth, you win a war when you have what you came for. Not much that Israel is doing or trying to push this country into doing has won them anything. Remember those two campaigns a while back, that they undertook when somebody kidnapped one of their soldiers? Complete failure, for all the firepower unleashed. Sure showed them how strong they were, by setting off all that fireworks, but not getting their man back.

Ill advised, unsuccessful actions can demonstrate weakness, no matter how high the body count.

Royal Flush-
I think if you asked the proponents of any religion about the prophecies contained within, they would offer the same answer. It could be argued that prophecies can be interpreted whatever way the people need them to be.

I mean, even within our own religion, there have been multiple interpretations of the same prophecies. Heck, let’s just focus on Hal Lindsey’s particular interpretation. When Russia was big, it was Russia that was on the other side. Now it’s the Muslims. Throughout history, the Protestants, Catholics, Napoleon, and many others have been on many different sides of a claimed apocalyptic fight to the finish. It’s like metaphysical mad libs. This big bad is the anti-Christ. These nations are Gog and Magog.

So on and so forth. Dates are revealed, but the dates pass without incident, and people redo their calculations and start all over again. Meanwhile, soaking in the self-righteousness, some of these people treat others like crap, and scorn them for not believing. Well, why should people believe, if you prophesy falsely, if your behavior doesn’t exactly convince people that you have benefited from God’s wisdom, or Christ’s love.

So, don’t try to sell me or any other liberal you’ve chosen to condemn on biblical prophesy. You’re not the person to do that.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 15, 2012 10:05 AM
Comment #353124

Oh, and for people who want to get the latest comments, I recommend hitting F5. That will refresh the page, and bring you new comments without the need for posting of empty comments.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 15, 2012 10:19 AM
Comment #353126

Stephen

“We had our enemies defeated after WWII. That’s why it worked.” I am not disagreeing with your statement, but I have to add in a bit of nerdy detail. Our nation building Germany was not going well. Many people called it a failure. It succeed because the Soviet threat pushed us into a better and more unified approach and the Germans took chart of their recovery, the so-called wirtschaftswunder.

The difference also in German in Japan is that these were disciplined, advanced societies. We were not nation building, we were rebuilding and they knew what to do. Africa and the Arab world never were developed or disciplined societies in the modern sense.

Re “People have said much the same about us at times.” Yes, but they have been mistaken.

“They weren’t allowed to grow out …” NO - they weren’t WILLING. Read the history of the Ottoman Empire and how they just would not change their cultural norms to allow modernization. The Muslim world stopping wanting to reform and rejected borrowing from the West except at the superficial level. Colonialism was the consequence, not the cause of their retrogression.

The country of my father’s origin - Poland - was colonized, wiped off the map, and deeply oppressed for a longer time, 123 years. Soon after its reappearance, it was physically destroyed to large extent by the Nazis and under Soviet oppression for almost 50 years after that. Yet we don’t find the kinds of pathologies as we see in the Middle East.

On the other hand, I am a little optimistic. There are a couple of trends. The Iraq war disrupted the traditional order. It was/is messy, but they may advance. Beyond that, the Iranians are a civilized people (although you cannot see that recently). Their birthrates have dropped a lot. People become more peaceful when they no longer have lots of young men to waste. I think in a few years this will help.


Posted by: C&J at September 15, 2012 10:42 AM
Comment #353127

Comment by Rich to C&J:

“I would like to remind you that conservative policy (Bush administration) during the 2000s contained a large helping of self blame.”

Answer to Rich by JJ:

To Rich@ 7:56. I’m a conservative independent, Rich. I left the Repub party back in 2007. I’ve always been against nation building using our sons and daughters when many of them come home in a body bag. Wars are meant to be won as swiftly as possible with the most lethal weapons available.

John Johnson, the left on WB are incapable of understanding the difference between Republican and Conservative; they cannot comprehend that Conservatives did not agree with Bush; and the reason is they are ignorant. So you can try to explain to them your conservative views all you want, but all they see is Republican. I gave up a long time ago. I told them I do not support the Republican Party, but I do support Conservatism and I support the TP. They are incapable of understanding the word RINO; Bush was a RINO and not a conservative and many of the leaders in the RP are establishment RINO’s. Some things I agreed with Bush and some I did not. The left are ignorant in the fact they blame Bush for some things (and sometimes rightly so), and at the same time blame TP conservatives for trying to hijack the Republican Party and push it toward more Bush policies. This is ignorant because the TP conservatives are trying to push the Republican Party back toward its original conservative ideals and not Bush policies. Now the question may be asked, did I vote for Bush? Yes, because the leftist alternative goes against all I believe. When the Republican Primary was in full swing; the left were beside themselves claiming TP conservatives would never support Romney, and they even said conservative evangelicals would not support a Mormon, but they were wrong. The TP conservatives may have supported more conservative candidates, but the choice of a TP backed Paul Ryan bridged that gap. The base line is ignorance on the part of the leftist on WB; you will never be able to explain to them your beliefs. They are dailykos, huffpost, die in the wool leftist whose only concept of TP conservatism is what they are told by their leaders, and they cannot think for themselves.

Proof can be seen in this comment by Rich:

“What I am saying is that conservative neocon policy toward the Middle East in the last decade was decidedly pro revolution and self determination. It was based upon the belief that freedom and self determination would be in the best interests of the US.
Now, conservatives are having some buyer’s remorse about that sentiment.”

The policies in the ME for the past decade were never conservative, they were RINO (Bush); had they been conservative, we would have turned Iraq and Afghanistan into a sea of glass, then we would have told Iran, “shut down the nukes and the rhetoric, or we will do the same to you”. Conservatives understand the only thing these Muslims understand is force; talk, talk, talk is a sign of weakness to them.

Another comment by Rich to JJ:

“John Johnson,

Then you should be a huge fan of Obama who has gone after radical Islamists and al-Qaeda with a vengeance using drones, smart weapons and special forces. The recent killing in Libya of our ambassador is thought to be related to a drone attack killing a high ranking al-Qaeda member of Libyan nationality in Pakistan in June.”

Posted by: Rich at September 14, 2012 11:19 PM

Then we have this comment by j2t2:

“John, The movie these guys are using as their excuse to target American embassies is a piece of crap. Surely you do not expect the US government to endorse the movie. The embassy people did the right thing by letting everyone know the US government did not approve of the movie. This is not appeasement it is telling the truth. It wasn’t a sissy statement it was a simple truth. Agreeing that the movie is a piece of crap is not wrong John.”

So which is it? Is the killings in the ME the result of a movie (that no one has seen) or is it the result of something else? The MSM has been the water boy for Clinton and Obama, claiming the killings are the result of free speech in America. Remember folks, this all started with the Obama administration apologizing for the 1st Amendment in America. Rather than condemn the ME for terrorism, Obama and Clinton condemned Americans for free speech. It’s always America’s fault. GW is America’s fault, success in America is America’s fault, the use of the world’s natural resources is America’s fault, colonialism is America’s fault, and now the killings in the ME and the rise of radical Islam is America’s fault.

Posted by: Frank at September 15, 2012 10:43 AM
Comment #353128

“John Johnson-
You, sir, have no notion of what real strength is. Sometimes, it’s endurance. Sometimes, it’s intelligence. Sometimes, it’s not taking the bait, and getting more violent in return, like the terrorists often want us to be. Sometimes projecting a sense of calm and implacability does us more favors, since it tells those who would try to make us panic or lash out that we will not dance to their tune. That we aren’t some small nation that fears to be thought weak, but a giant that can take the small blows and walk right through it.” Stephen Daugherty

Stephen, it is people like you and thinking like this that causes American’s to suffer and die. Israel has been dealing with these radicals much longer than we have; what is their policy? Let me give you an example: Israel profiles and how safe are their airlines? But in the US, thanks to your leftist mentality, our TSA agents bend over backwards to let Muslims pass the check point, but we strip-search grandmas and look in the diapers of babies. This is leftist liberalism in action.

Obama’s gaff was to say Egypt was not an ally; because Obama is incompetent when it comes to foreign policy.

Stephen goes on to say:

“Frank-
The President missed the meetings, not the briefings. Besides, from what I hear, Bush was briefed repeatedly on the fact that terrorists were seeking to strike within our borders before 9/11.”

So Stephen, is your comment fact, or is it hearsay? Stephen, the 4 deaths in Libya is current; this is not about Bush, or his policies. For you to try to connect Bush’s name to this uprising is once again a “dumbass” statement. Will you ever learn??? NO.

A further “Dumbass” statement by Stephen:

“Oh, and Frank, has killing 400 for every 4 won the battle for Israel?”

And perhaps Stephen could tell us how long Israel would have lasted if they had not sent jets to bomb Palestinians when they lob rockets. Had Israel not show strength for attacks, they would not exist now.

“You can pretend that body counts win wars,”

Is that what I said Stephen, or is this more revisionist history from you? Did I say body counts wins wars, or….did I say if they kill 4, you kill 400? This is a sign of strength, of reprisal, of telling the enemy, “you do this to us, and we will do this to you”. It’s called “walk softly and carry a big stick”; something that Democrats have forgotten. The left are appeasers, talkers, cowards…

“Not much that Israel is doing or trying to push this country into doing has won them anything.”

Dumbass statement; what Israel has done has given them 64 years of existence. They can just thank God their existence did not depend on the leftist liberals in America. They would have thrown them to the Muslims long ago as a sign of appeasement; or to protect the liberal’s sorry asses, right Stephen?

Posted by: Frank at September 15, 2012 11:09 AM
Comment #353129

If you dare, listen to the bullshit this man said when a Senator and running for President. I have never heard such hogwash. He talks about his time on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee; how long did he serve on this committee anyway? No matter, his predictions of being the messiah of the middle east certainly failed.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/09/14/FLASHBACK-Obama-The-Day-Im-Inaugurated-Muslim-Hostility-Will-Ease

Posted by: TomT at September 15, 2012 11:22 AM
Comment #353130

Sorry, Stephen…I have to agree with all the posters who are critical of the comments in the book you wrote at 10:05am. I totally disagree with you on how to make the Muslim terrorists and ignorant urchins understand we mean business. As pointed out, the Israeli model renders all your arguments lame.

As for Christian projections, please don’t get them lumped in with the rants of evangelical lunatics. There never has been peace in the Middle East and there never will be. Period.

Posted by: John Johnson at September 15, 2012 2:09 PM
Comment #353132

Daugherty writes; “Well, why should people believe, if you prophesy falsely, if your behavior doesn’t exactly convince people that you have benefited from God’s wisdom, or Christ’s love.”

Perhaps he has not bothered to read the prophesy’s in the Old Testament…and that’s OK, they were correct despite his disclaimer. What has biblical prophesy do to with anyone living today? Does Mr. Daugherty even know when the last biblical prophesy was made?

Some lefties are now proclaiming that the Muslim population in the ME is hungering for democracy. Democracy masquerades under many guises. Is cruelty, terrorism, murder, hatred and mayhem better tolerated when executed by a dictator or an elected leader of the masses who proclaim the same values?

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 15, 2012 3:17 PM
Comment #353136

I love this pic of the president; it makes America proud. This is why the Muslims of the middle east will respect us. At least that’s what Obama said:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-518585/Obama-turban-Barack-accuses-Hillary-smear-campaign-circulating-photos-dressed-Muslim.html

Hillary must have known something we didn’t.

Posted by: Billinflorida at September 15, 2012 5:28 PM
Comment #353137

“You, sir, have no notion of what real strength is.”
Spoken by a man who has never lifted a finger in defense of his country. Doesn’t sound very credible to me.

Posted by: tdobson at September 15, 2012 5:45 PM
Comment #353138

John Johnson-
Is Israel at peace? Have the Palestinians backed down, or do they still generate suicide bombers, rocket attacks and all that garbage?

This President doesn’t make a bunch of noise to tell people he means business. He sends people, drones and other crap after you to tell you means business. The Israeli Model, at least the one they’re currently using, has failed.

As for peace? I wonder how many places could have that same claim you made about them. You don’t try, you’ll never know, and with the way we get the blowback from those places, we don’t have much choice to just let everybody kill each other.

TomT-
It wasn’t Obama who brought this on us, it was a moron meth-cooker right-winger who wanted to create a controversy. It’s tactless, provocative Islamophobes who deliberately poke the hornet’s nest of West-Hating clerics overseas.

C&J-
Whatever approach it was that you’re hairsplitting about, it could work because we weren’t fighting a war at the same time. I don’t think a lack of discipline or advancement would make Iraq a calmer place to have both a war and a reconstructive occupation at the same time.

Colonialism helped advance people somewhat, but not native attitudes. We had to go through a lot to get our technology, our learning. Whether or not they inflicted troubles on themselves or not is irrelevant to the fact that they didn’t take being manipulated and stuck with leaders whose interests served ours and not theirs well.

The point is, folks aren’t born angry, they are made angry, and they are just a few generations beyond a world in which they were subjects of western powers, rather than actors in their own right.

Those who simply assume a paternalistic point of view, or who simply dismiss them as savages, do nothing to change their minds, and much to reinforce their hatreds.

Frank-
Gallup says that 69% of Republicans self-identify as conservative. And yes, I know what RINO means, I also know that it’s a term that gets used so much in your party, it’s not funny. There’s no turning down the volume on the Spanish inquisition in your party, to sort out the heretics from the orthodox.

You want to believe that somehow the Tea Party is some sort of messianic movement, designed to save the party, but I’ll tell you what it really is: The Tea Party is the GOP’s break from reality, it’s desperate attempt to deny that the dream turned into a nightmare and the promises it made to people could never be kept. It’s the GOP pretending it’s not wrong, and getting all the more wrong for it.

The only thing keeping Tea Partiers from dropping their support for Romney is Obama. Even that may not be enough, if Romney weasels around violently enough, trying to get out of of some gaffe or trying to appeal to the center.

And the real irony may be, that in trying to appease the Tea Party’s demands, he may end up alienating everybody else. But you know what? If you want to make the GOP into a nice exclusive club with as few members as possible, more power to you.

On the subject of the briefings, the President always gets the information. As for Bush’s meetings, they were often pre-scripted meetings where people said exactly what they were supposed to, and didn’t offer any views. So, if your only datapoint is whether he attended meetings about the thing, you still are short of what you need to make your claim.

As for this:

Is that what I said Stephen, or is this more revisionist history from you? Did I say body counts wins wars, or….did I say if they kill 4, you kill 400? This is a sign of strength, of reprisal, of telling the enemy, “you do this to us, and we will do this to you”. It’s called “walk softly and carry a big stick”; something that Democrats have forgotten. The left are appeasers, talkers, cowards…

You know what? What do you think, “If they kill 4, you kill 400?” breaks down to? That’s trying to win by body count. You’re not that good at rhetoric such that you can make both claims at once, I’m not sure anybody is.

It’s not a sign of strength, that’s a sign of depravity, and a waste of time. You get the people responsible. Send people the message that you’re not some bloodthirsty monster who has to be destroyed, but you are somebody it’s deadly to mess with.

And the rest? Good God, man. You people are always, always saying such things, but it didn’t mean you could end the wars any faster. You’re all talk. You got overconfident over the years because some Republicans before you were willing to do the work, but because your people weren’t willing to build on their example, you’ve burned up all your credit, pissed away Reagan and Bush’s legacy. Hell, you got people acting like the UN’s some evil satanic enterprise, where in Bush and Reagan’s time your people recognized it as a key foreign policy tool.

As for Israel? It didn’t always have such overbearing twits in charge, nor the problems with the Judaic fundamentalists pushing into the Palestinian Territories. The real problem is, they weren’t told no enough in the previous decade, and that meant that they’ve let things get way out of hand. They’re not strong, they’re stuck on a stupid policy, and your people would do nothing to help that, especially the twits among you who think pushing Israel into an apocalyptic battle is part of activating the end times.

Oh, and did you know that many of the Zionists were secular left-wing folks? You’re just so wrapped up in your political fantasy world that you see nothing unless you see it through the lens of those left being everything bad, and those on the right everything good. Sorry the world doesn’t work that way.

Royal Flush-
Prophets often dealt with social issues, with issues of justice, not just issues of God and his worship. It wasn’t merely about some sort of Geopolitical games there. Your political expression of religion seems hollow to me, an arrogant belief that you have the right to impose your beliefs on everybody.

Truth is, I don’t think God’s on anybody’s side in particular. I think he’s on everybody’s side, and is trying to reach out to us. The question is, will we reach back in return?

Does your biblical politics even begin to get into Jesus’ radical gospel of forgiveness, or do you dismiss that view as naive? It might look that way at first, but if you see all the pain and suffering that goes on in this world as people try to avenge this wrong and that, you’ll find there is a lot more substance to the need to hold back one’s hand, and find ways to make peace, than you would otherwise think.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 15, 2012 6:23 PM
Comment #353139
It was a weak, whinny attempt to appease. Surely, there is no denying this. Everything else is moot.

John you are wrong. It was an honest rejection of the movie. No appeasement what so ever. This silly right wing talking point of appeasement has no merit. The issue is how Romney was unable to remain calm in a national crisis. Surely you do not want this guy on the receiving end of that 3am phone call after witnessing his failure this past week.

What does OBL and many of his lieutenants being dead have to do with anything?

Well for one thing John it kinda shows us your blow hard theory is laughable at best.

The ignorant masses follow their radical clerics like many ignorant sheep follow Obama. He’s a good public speaker and he tells them what they want to hear ( 21 virgins vs 21 more months of freebies).

Seriously John it is funny to watch your credibility sliding down the drain as your foolish theories go up in smoke and you continue to resort to conservative blather in an attempt to divert the discussion from Romney and his failure.

John Johnson, the left on WB are incapable of understanding the difference between Republican and Conservative; they cannot comprehend that Conservatives did not agree with Bush; and the reason is they are ignorant.

Frank such nonsensical gibberish. Bush was elected by republicans and conservatives to the office of president. He was also reelected by these same people to a second term. Conservatives seek to distance themselves from Bush because in fact they did agree with him up until the economy collapsed. Then it was cut and run, the fine conservative principle that is used whenever their ideology is proven wrong which is often as we know. Deny it as you will but lets face it you guys voted him into office just like you are trying to vote Romney into office now. Of course Romney is a repub just as GWB was a repub and you guys are conservatives but oh well… If you are to ignorant to understand this you really shouldn’t be name calling.

So which is it? Is the killings in the ME the result of a movie (that no one has seen) or is it the result of something else?

Jeez Frank it isn’t that hard. The killings of our Ambassador and other Americans are the result of terrorist attacks on our embassies. It is these people that are responsible for the murders of these Americans.


The MSM has been the water boy for Clinton and Obama, claiming the killings are the result of free speech in America.

Frank this tired old conservative myth again! The movie may have triggered these guys or the movie may have been the excuse they used to incite others but it is only a side issue.


Remember folks, this all started with the Obama administration apologizing for the 1st Amendment in America. Rather than condemn the ME for terrorism, Obama and Clinton condemned Americans for free speech.

Frank why is it conservatives cannot seem to grasp the reality of the situation without the misinformation half truths and outright lies such as you have spouted. Your nonsensical comment is so far off the mark as to be laughable. I listened to Obama’s statement on the Libyan attack and their was no blame placed on anyone but the attackers. Your propaganda is foolish and destructive, yours and the rest of the misinformed conservatives spouting first amendment nonsense.


Posted by: j2t2 at September 15, 2012 6:29 PM
Comment #353140

Steven…don’t ur fingers get tired typing all those words?

The Israeli model does work. I never said anything about peace, since I believe I told you it is my belief that there never will be peace. They survive by responding to a rock with a bullet; a grenade with a rocket; and bus bomb with tanks and jet strafing runs. As someone pointed out, if they didn’t have the weapons they have and the proclivity to use them, they would have been crushed by now. Quit trying to Analyze differently. My proof is in the history books.

Furthermore, do you know anything about WWII? Do you know why Truman dropped the nuclear bombs on Japan? Was it to kill thousands of people? Know your history? You would think someone would closely study history and try and learn from it, since our memories are so short and we keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

Posted by: John Johnson at September 15, 2012 6:57 PM
Comment #353141

J2t2….feel better? That was quite a post. Don’t know where to start in responding. How about with the fact that the little known movie was a smoke screen…a ruse…an excuse for organized raids by terrorist groups. Hillary and her boss want to keep talking up movie since it is not going to go over well when it comes out that we knew something was up days before. This is my take. Let’s wait and see.

I guess I should also mention that I am no TP’er either. I am a conservative independent and a devout Christian who believes that I cannot dictate what a woman wants to do with her body. I also have a gay brother that I love dearly. I think the abortion and gay rights issues are not going to be resolved through heated arguments? How many times has your mind been changed with someone yelling in your face? This pretty much holds true for all disagreements, doesn’t it?

Posted by: John Johnson at September 15, 2012 7:19 PM
Comment #353142

“Some lefties are now proclaiming that the Muslim population in the ME is hungering for democracy.”

Royal Flush,

This is absurd! Conservatives spent the last decade promoting that very message. A central justification for the Iraq war was the removal a vicious dictator suppressing the will of the Iraqi people. Was the Bush “freedom agenda” policy for the entire Middle East just a mirage? Were you guys just kidding?

Now, supporting freedom for the people of the Middle East is just some “leftie” loony idea. WTF!
Oh, I get it, Bush and the Republican controlled Congress were not really conservatives. They were all RHINOS.

Jeez, will you true conservatives do us all a favor and stop voting for Republicans. It is confusing.

Posted by: Rich at September 15, 2012 7:21 PM
Comment #353143

John Frank and other conservative Romney apologist, Romney
has made the 3 am phone call a scary thought. He blew it and doesn’t have the decency to apologize. He doesn’t have the character to admit he was as foolish as he appeared. Trying to cover up with 1st amendment rights is as phony as Romney. Trying to cover up with appeasement is as phony as Romney. Trying to tell us the water boy MSM is at fault is as phony as Romney.

Obama has dealt with Egypt to bring the guilty to justice. He has shown leadership in crisis and it hurts you guys to admit it. Your double standards when it comes to the two candidates is shameful.

http://www.juancole.com/2012/09/obama-plays-hardball-and-egypts-morsi-folds.html

Posted by: j2t2 at September 15, 2012 7:41 PM
Comment #353144

“Obama’s gaff was to say Egypt was not an ally;”

Frank,

Do you think that Egypt, with a government dominated by the Muslim Brotherhood, is a dependable ally? I seriously doubt it. So, is it truly a gaff in your opinion?

What Obama said was that Egypt was neither an ally nor an enemy. Honest, but not very diplomatic. But a clever and blunt reminder to the Egyptian government that its considerable foreign aide might depend on its willingness to diffuse the violence and protect US interests, particularly its Embassy and personnel in Cairo.

In other words, Obama showed a little bit of Missouri “show me” in his remarks. You don’t agree?

Posted by: Rich at September 15, 2012 7:42 PM
Comment #353145

checking comments.

Posted by: Rich at September 15, 2012 8:34 PM
Comment #353146

J2t2…don’t u think in the big scheme of things that how Romney reacted to a pandering embassy statement is really small potatoes ? How much ink do you really want to give it? Is this a bigger story than O and his staff leaking bogus reports on the SEAL raid on the Osama’s compound for political gain? How about dropping SEAL Team 6 in the grease? Just read No Easy Day. Suggest you do, too.

You are not going to convince me to love Obama. He is cocky, sarcastic, unqualified and dangerous. He is a good community organizer. He can’t hold Romney’s jock when it comes to real experiences and moving the ball forward. O skipped important votes in IL and U.S. Senate, and he skips face to face morning security meetings choosing instead to read a report. It’s hard to ask a piece of paper to elaborate and get technical. I’m no Bush fan, but he was present and accounted for every morning.

It’s the many little things about this community organizer that I pick up on,
that I despise him for. Many of you are blind to this. When you are so deeply in love with someone, it is very easy to overlook all the warts.

Posted by: John Johnson at September 15, 2012 8:35 PM
Comment #353147

Stephen said:

“Frank-
Gallup says that 69% of Republicans self-identify as conservative.”

Is this the same Gallup that has been compromised by the Obama administration? What was the percent of Republicans who were conservatives 12 years ago? Not today you imbecile. Ok, I’ll tell you, less than 48% of Republicans were conservative when Bush II was elected:

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/07/why-the-g-o-p-cannot-compromise/

http://www.varight.com/opinion/gallup-polls-have-been-compromised-by-the-white-house-and-are-no-longer-credible/

“You want to believe that somehow the Tea Party is some sort of messianic movement, designed to save the party, but I’ll tell you what it really is: The Tea Party is the GOP’s break from reality, it’s desperate attempt to deny that the dream turned into a nightmare and the promises it made to people could never be kept.”

Stephen, the only thing connected with messianic is you concept of Obama. As for saving the party, who knows, you are the one showing a 25% increase in conservatives in the Republican Party. “Break from reality”, I don’t think so…The TP is the left’s worst nightmare. I want to let you in on a little secret Stephen; there are a lot of conservatives who do not identify with the Republican Party. There is a lot who are classified as independents. Scary isn’t it??? Why is the conservative movement growing if we are destroying ourselves…as you say? 40+% of Americans are conservative, and that’s a higher number than those who say they are Republicans. You do the math…

“The only thing keeping Tea Partiers from dropping their support for Romney is Obama.”

Is this some more of your non-existent facts Stephen, or is this just a leftist opinion. I really have a hard time separating your opinions from your facts. Perhaps you could include a link as proof; and don’t insult us with another link to the kos or huffpost.
“And the real irony may be, that in trying to appease the Tea Party’s demands, he may end up alienating everybody else. But you know what? If you want to make the GOP into a nice exclusive club with as few members as possible, more power to you.”

If this is true Stephen, then you don’t have anything to worry about. I’m curious, if the TP and conservatives are destroying the Republican Party; why are you concerned? I personally love seeing the leftist socialist like you take over the Democratic Party.

Re/ briefings; Obama is AOL, don’t try to cover his absence up.

Dumbass statement:

“It’s not a sign of strength, that’s a sign of depravity, and a waste of time. You get the people responsible. Send people the message that you’re not some bloodthirsty monster who has to be destroyed, but you are somebody it’s deadly to mess with.”

John brought up a good point, why did Truman nuke Japan? What was the reason Stephen? A lot of people died and what was the result?

Another Dumbass statement:

“Hell, you got people acting like the UN’s some evil satanic enterprise, where in Bush and Reagan’s time your people recognized it as a key foreign policy tool.”

Here we go again Stephen; was it the Establishment Republicans who supported the UN, or was it Conservatives? I realize this dumbass comment is your opinion and not a fact, but do you honestly think conservatives ever trusted the UN? I’m a conservative and I, as well as many others, believed we should have kicked the UN out of the US years ago. Are they satanic, I don’t really know, but I do know they do nothing for America? The UN is a joke and always has been.

“Oh, and did you know that many of the Zionists were secular left-wing folks?”

If they are, then there the only leftist with balls; but considering they require ALL youth to spend time defending their country in the military; and since they believe in a strong military. Then I have to come to the conclusion this is another one of your fantasy opinions and not facts.

I must finish with the comment you made to Royal:

“Royal Flush-
Prophets often dealt with social issues, with issues of justice, not just issues of God and his worship. It wasn’t merely about some sort of Geopolitical games there. Your political expression of religion seems hollow to me, an arrogant belief that you have the right to impose your beliefs on everybody.
Truth is, I don’t think God’s on anybody’s side in particular. I think he’s on everybody’s side, and is trying to reach out to us. The question is, will we reach back in return?
Does your biblical politics even begin to get into Jesus’ radical gospel of forgiveness, or do you dismiss that view as naive? It might look that way at first, but if you see all the pain and suffering that goes on in this world as people try to avenge this wrong and that, you’ll find there is a lot more substance to the need to hold back one’s hand, and find ways to make peace, than you would otherwise think.”
Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 15, 2012 6:23 PM

Stephen, have you ever heard the saying, “people will never know how ignorant you are until you open your mouth”? Well this applies to you when you try to impress us with your plethora of knowledge regarding eschatology. In fact you would do best to not even comment on the Bible, since you do not even qualify as a novice on the subject. I just keep remembering your words that the Bible is nothing more than a story book and not really real.

Re/j2t2’s remarks; since they are just regurgitated Stephen Daugherty remarks, you can read what I wrote to him.

“Frank why is it conservatives cannot seem to grasp the reality of the situation without the misinformation half truths and outright lies such as you have spouted. Your nonsensical comment is so far off the mark as to be laughable. I listened to Obama’s statement on the Libyan attack and their was no blame placed on anyone but the attackers. Your propaganda is foolish and destructive, yours and the rest of the misinformed conservatives spouting first amendment nonsense.”

Posted by: j2t2 at September 15, 2012 6:29 PM

Word games j2t2; who did Hillary blame? The same Hillary that stood next to the idiot when he was talking.

Rich, TomT had a good link above, perhaps yo should read it this time:

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/09/14/FLASHBACK-Obama-The-Day-Im-Inaugurated-Muslim-Hostility-Will-Ease

Posted by: Frank at September 15, 2012 8:47 PM
Comment #353148

“J2t2…don’t u think in the big scheme of things that how Romney reacted to a pandering embassy statement is really small potatoes ? How much ink do you really want to give it?” John Johnson

For the past few days, after the killing of 4 American citizens and the meltdown of the ME, bomb threats in American campuses, and riots major cities all around the world; all the Obama MSM can do is talk about Romney’s correct statements. To the point of discrediting themselves by colluding to have a gotcha moment at the Romney Press briefing. I still say Romney looked more presidential; even Hillary looked more presidential than Obama as he stood behind her with that goofy look on his face and his nose stuck up in the air.

Posted by: Frank at September 15, 2012 8:58 PM
Comment #353149

Stephen

“The point is, folks aren’t born angry, they are made angry, and they are just a few generations beyond a world in which they were subjects of western powers, rather than actors in their own right.” - They are wrong for the wrong reasons at the wrong people. We cannot change that easily. But to the extent that we enable their anger by accepting it, we are doing neither ourselves nor them any favors.
Many aspects of Middle Eastern culture are dysfunctional and need to be changed. It is mostly up to them to do the changing.

My experiences with Arabs was not the only one. But I found that when negotiating with them, you got more respect by being tough than “understanding.” I don’t mean cruel. But think of it like this. Say you already have a kind of inferiority complex coupled with resentment. Sometimes it is much more respectful and effective to treat them as men, and not pander to their prejudices.

“Those who simply assume a paternalistic point of view, or who simply dismiss them as savages, do nothing to change their minds, and much to reinforce their hatreds.” See above. We should do neither.

Posted by: C&J at September 15, 2012 10:00 PM
Comment #353150

Who threw Hillary under the bus?

http://www.reagancoalition.com/articles/2012/20120913005-state-dept-hillary.html

My guess is Obama and company know the movie theory’s not going to fly, so Hillary takes the heat for the failure to protect US diplomats. Obama’s still hiding under Hillary’s skirt.

Posted by: Frank at September 15, 2012 10:43 PM
Comment #353151
That was quite a post. Don’t know where to start in responding. How about with the fact that the little known movie was a smoke screen…a ruse…an excuse for organized raids by terrorist groups.

I wouldn’t disagree with that John. The religious extremist need little to start trouble.


Hillary and her boss want to keep talking up movie since it is not going to go over well when it comes out that we knew something was up days before. This is my take. Let’s wait and see.

Were that true and they actually were talking it up as you claim you would have a point. But Obama is instead doing his job. IMHO it is the conservative propagandist talking the movie up to sidetrack us from the poor showing by Romney.
Make no mistake the movie is a piece of crap designed to stir up the extremist here and in the middle east. The people responsible for the movie should be held accountable by those offended but I would still defend their right to be offensive. I also respect the government decision to distance themselves from the movie it is the only intelligent thing to do.


How many times has your mind been changed with someone yelling in your face? This pretty much holds true for all disagreements, doesn’t it?

Just about as many times as when someone thinks it is smart to refer to me as sheep John why do you ask? And what does this have to do with Romney and his lies or your theory that has been proven to not work John. Or for that matter what does it have to do with Obama’s handling of the embassy crisis?

Posted by: j2t2 at September 16, 2012 1:12 AM
Comment #353152

To get back on topic….here’s my observations of what transpired:
Embassy issues statement to appease Muslims. Romney criticizes statement. Obama’s first comments about situation are about Romney’s criticism, not about causes. Press then colludes to gang up on Romney. After Obama’s statements no questions asked about being per-warned of mob actions, lack of security, missing security briefings, not canceling Las Vegas fund raiser, etc. This about covers it, doesn’t it? Stand by. This is going to end up costing our amateur president his job.

Posted by: John Johnson at September 16, 2012 1:28 AM
Comment #353153

John Johnson-
Not really. I’m a touch typist who writes long-form fiction. I’m used to it.

Your policy has nowhere to go but up, and you can’t appear anything but ready to kick everybody’s ass all the time. If you don’t respond to every provocation equally, and you won’t for simple logistic reasons, the contrast between your rhetoric and your actions will make you look weak. All bluff and bluster.

Nature itself tells us that those who feel the need to fight all the time pay the costs of not picking their battles. Better to hold back and be prepared for a few battles, than to lose all inhibition and have to prepare for every single, tedious ****ing battle.

Look at the Israelis. Do they look tough when after all their assaults, and all the people that get killed on both sides, they can’t get what they started out for? Do they look tougher with the world stacking up against them on account of what they’re doing to the Palestinians? Will Netanyahu look tough sticking his thumb in the eyes of his American allies when that American ally gets re-elected?

They’ve fallen into the trap of follow leaders who promise to get tough, but who really advocate a policy of hypersensitivity, of indulging fears and the fantasy of control, rather than a problem solving mentality where force is an option that waits its appropriate turn.

I don’t think you’re going to convince many people that Obama is a lazy man. I mean, it’s a sure sign that the idea is having trouble, that folks have to make dubious distinctions, like between attending a meeting about a brief and reading it, rather than point to, say, being on vacation for hundreds of days on end. People see him around, doing things, running things, negotiating, working. It is much harder to convince people of something, if the evidence is so overwhelming.

Romney didn’t merely criticize the statement, he spoke as if the statement were contemporary with the attacks, rather than long preceding them. He treated the Consulate’s statement as if it’s the President’s. As for the rest, do you really have the President’s schedule at hand, or are you just passing on gossip, speculation, and conjecture here? He’s not missing briefings, he’s reading every report.

These facts matter, if you want an argument that depends on the truth, rather than trying to provide a lesser alternative to it.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 16, 2012 2:07 AM
Comment #353154

Frank-

Is this the same Gallup that has been compromised by the Obama administration? What was the percent of Republicans who were conservatives 12 years ago? Not today you imbecile. Ok, I’ll tell you, less than 48% of Republicans were conservative when Bush II was elected:

Oh yes, right, this new conspiracy theory. Never mind that Axelrod wasn’t working at the White House at the time, and the case wasn’t started then, but two or three years earlier. And never mind that everytime morons on the right are citing that Liberals are only 20% of the population, they’re citing the same report!

I have never denied those self-identification numbers, and Gallup seems to have a slight conservative bias, rather than the liberal bias you would expect of a polling outfit responding to intimidation from the left.

Like Romney, you’re all over the place. The poll is valid when it comes to putting liberals in their place, but not valid when it comes to showing how much conservatives dominate the GOP, despite their complaints.

If you only accept the news and views you want to hear, if you only believe the sunshiney reports about your cause, you are going to crash and burn, because nobody has it, or does it that perfect. You need to know when you’re screwing up. If Obama had taken the Republican approach towards the negativity of the press reports or polls, he would probably be in the thirties, not even close to competing.

As for not identifying with the GOP? What’s the use. You vote for them. You buy all their bull****. What do you really do to make yourself truly independent?

As for why I’m concerned? Well, it’s pretty simple: I want a functional Republican Party back, because this nation needs its government functioning to get back. If Democrats have to pull the weight of all the Republicans trying to obstruct, rather than earn, their way back into power, then not much will get done to solve this nation’s problems.

Oh, by the way, AOL is an internet company. The term is AWOL, and the fact is, the President gets the briefing, the information, even if he doesn’t attend the designated meeting. Y’all need to pull crap like this because you have no foreign policy triumphs to brag about.

I’m going to comment more on this tomorrow.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 16, 2012 2:22 AM
Comment #353159
J2t2…don’t u think in the big scheme of things that how Romney reacted to a pandering embassy statement is really small potatoes ?

Really John! In this thread it is the subject we are discussing. If he were to be elected would you really want him taking the 3am phone call after seeing him fail on the embassy issue?

You are not going to convince me to love Obama.
Not trying to John, why not take a look at Gary Johnson instead. He handles the crisis much better than Mitt.

But you guys will be telling us Romney is not a conservative, should he win the election, within a few short years. So perhaps it is you that is in love with your candidate John, warts and all.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 16, 2012 9:02 AM
Comment #353160

Stephen…I’ll stand by my comments to you at 6:57pm yesterday. Israel is still productive and functioning, while surrounded on all sides by countries that have been trying to destroy them since they resettled their land. Their overwelming military might and the willingness they’ve shown to use same is the only reason the still exist. You can type thousands of words to attempt to refute this if you like, but this is the lowest denominator. It will be a waste of time.

With regards to Obama, I’m just stating what I’ve read and heard. I think that the fact he doesn’t feel inclined to meet face to face in morning security briefings is common knowledge. This is not the first time it has been reported. He seems to think reading a report gives him all he needs and questions and a little back and forth aren’t necessary.

Twist and contort the embassy officer releasing the appeasement statement all you want to. Did you know it is being reported that it was released from D.C.? I’m just going by the quoted words, Stephen.
Read them. They condemned “the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims.” Is this a consolatory message, or not? Please….no “yeah, but’s”.

Posted by: John Johnson at September 16, 2012 9:09 AM
Comment #353161

P.S. you never answered my WWII Truman/bomb question. You going to?

Posted by: John Johnson at September 16, 2012 9:12 AM
Comment #353162

“Wah, whine cry snivel. It is the water boy, the MSM, the media that covers Romney instead of Obama. They have it wrong. It is Obama and his water boys, really it is really.”

You guys all get your marching orders from Fox or Breitbart and then try to convince us it is the rest of the media that has it wrong. How foolish can you be. The media is reporting the news of Romneys serious breach of conduct during a crisis because it is important when deciding whose hand will be on the switch next. He blew it and your intentional misinformation half truths and outright lies will not change that.

It’s not to late to correct the GWB mistake you all made. Businessman, check. Conservative, check. Not up to the job, check. Why not an alternative guys? It will save you from the embarrassment of telling us Romney isn’t a conservative later on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_Party_%28United_States%29

Posted by: j2t2 at September 16, 2012 9:28 AM
Comment #353163

” Just read No Easy Day. Suggest you do, too.”

Here is a book on terrorism you may find enlightening John.

https://rowman.com/isbn/9781442218963

Posted by: j2t2 at September 16, 2012 9:43 AM
Comment #353165

Frank & Stephen

We really should stop calling names. As I have pointed out to several people, who I will not name, I am happy to have some people writing here because they demonstrate with their statements the foolishness of some ideas. We need not add the pejoratives.

Stephen

I am glad you guys are so confident. Tell you core voters that they can stay home on election day, drink beer, play the lottery, watch reality shows, do whatever they would do on a normal day.

Posted by: C&J at September 16, 2012 9:59 AM
Comment #353166

John Johnson-
Israel’s having to do an awful lot, and spend a great deal of our foreign aid to keep its enemies at bay. It’s having to build walls and live in a constant state of emergency to to keep from being attacked. Where would they be if we weren’t backing them? Could they endlessly provoke others, if there wasn’t American military power in the background, ready to come to their defense?

I’m no dove, but my policy, even with declared enemies is that peaceful methods create the least chaos and cost, and in strategic terms, economy and order in the world are strengths to be valued.

Wars, especially long wars, are economically damaging to the nations that wage them, even and especially from afar. The trillions of dollars in debt the Republicans are so Irate about? Much of it is from the wars we were fighting, including the one we’re trying to conclude, to ambiguous effect, right now. More importantly, these were wars that we had all but won within a short time. But Bush, time and again, underestimated his adversaries, underestimated the challenge of putting back together two countries he’d just broken under America’s might. So, we spend years fighting enemies that were supposed to be defeated, and our strategic gains? Uncertain. The Taliban may come back, Iraq may yet fall apart. America’s power has been called into doubt, not because it showed weakness in any kind of military firepower sense, but because we have failed to do what we set out to do, and cost ourselves dearly in the process.

America will no doubt find some war to get into in my lifetime, but Iraq and Afghanistan will haunt us the way Vietnam did, and that’s a shame, because it was tedious for people to compare every war to Vietnam before the Gulf War, and it will be tedious to hear it again. Like I said, I’m not a dove, and I believe sometimes war, or military action, is necessary. But where America once had confidence, the incompetence of the previous administration has saddled us with the burden of its policy failures.

Frank-
Nuclear weapons did not long remain a weapon only we possessed, and its the only weapons we could make such a threat with, and not a weapon we would deploy merely to avenge four diplomatic staff at an embassy.

You’re using an extreme case, when you damn well know we’d be employing good old fashioned conventional weapons. And really, would people get less mad, less outraged if we started deliberately slaughtering people at our gates? Good thing neither you, nor people like you are in charge, because you have no common sense at all when it comes to how people respond.

As for the UN? Well, the UN is a joke to folks who like to go cowboy and get themselves into trouble, but in our successful war against Saddam Hussein, we were able to use it to kick Saddam Hussein’s ass. It’s what you make of it, and religious fanatics and conspiracy theorists won’t make much out of it.

As for Lefties and being weak? That’s a few right-wingers like yoruself compensating for something. That’s your rhetorical theatre, where all the good roles go to the right, and all the villains and wimps go to the left.

But that’s not reality.

As for my knowledge of eschatology? I know that those who go by the Scofield/Late, Great Planet Earth approach basically have to misread a passage in Second Thessalonians, and must go back and forth within the bible in order to create their scenario. You would like this to be identified as the Christian Eschatology, but it’s only one version, and not even one the majority of churches actually support. If you’re Catholic, its not doctrine at all. The Rapture is not there in the bible, except as an erroneous interpretation of a passage that is more of a metaphor for the ancient practice of coming out to meet a visiting ruler, and then bring him back with you into your city. When Christ comes, we will meet him, and come back with him to a renewed version of our world, purified of evil. It’s not going to be clouds and harps, ghostly spirits and pearly gates, it’s going to be resurrection of the body, and the redemption of our planet.

Meanwhile, concentrating on this, many of your people are emphasizing dangerous policy in the Middle East, policy that could cause great bloodshed. There will come a time when we have to answer for what we did in this life, and I believe that very sincerely. He’s going to look at what we did, and did not do. Firing on protestors is both immoral and impractical, and one compounds the other.

As for throwing Hillary under the bus for it? I don’t see how. Can you point out to me where Obama’s said anything or done anything to cast doubt on her continued tenure? His statements blame the violent, and while they acknowledge the movie’s disgusting and offensive nature, do not pardon those who made a violent response on its account.

C&J-
We are confident, but we are not stupid, nor complacent. :-) However, you are welcome to do whatever it takes to get your mind off Romney impending defeat. ;-)

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 16, 2012 11:15 AM
Comment #353167

SD writes; “Royal Flush-
Prophets often dealt with social issues, with issues of justice, not just issues of God and his worship. It wasn’t merely about some sort of Geopolitical games there. Your political expression of religion seems hollow to me, an arrogant belief that you have the right to impose your beliefs on everybody.

Truth is, I don’t think God’s on anybody’s side in particular. I think he’s on everybody’s side, and is trying to reach out to us. The question is, will we reach back in return?”

Wow…SD goes totally in a different direction about my statement on prophecy. He writes answers to things I never wrote. OH, Well…that is SOP for him. When faced with fact and truth he often tries to change the subject. I don’t really care what he believes or doesn’t about the Bible as he can’t even distinguish the Old Testament from the New Testament.

God does take sides and is always consistent about evil and those who practice it. Apparently SD thinks of God as a liberal who preaches…”if it feels good, it must be good.”

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 16, 2012 12:27 PM
Comment #353168

SD writes; “Royal Flush-
Prophets often dealt with social issues, with issues of justice, not just issues of God and his worship. It wasn’t merely about some sort of Geopolitical games there. Your political expression of religion seems hollow to me, an arrogant belief that you have the right to impose your beliefs on everybody.

Truth is, I don’t think God’s on anybody’s side in particular. I think he’s on everybody’s side, and is trying to reach out to us. The question is, will we reach back in return?”

Wow…SD goes totally in a different direction about my statement on prophecy. He writes answers to things I never wrote. OH, Well…that is SOP for him. When faced with fact and truth he often tries to change the subject. I don’t really care what he believes or doesn’t about the Bible as he can’t even distinguish the Old Testament from the New Testament.

God does take sides and is always consistent about evil and those who practice it. Apparently SD thinks of God as a liberal who preaches…”if it feels good, it must be good.”

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 16, 2012 12:28 PM
Comment #353169

From the horse’s mouth…(correction), keyboard.

Doughboy writes; “John Johnson-
Not really. I’m a touch typist who writes long-form fiction. I’m used to it.”

LONG-FORM FICTION…I luv it when, on rare occasions, SD is being honest and factual.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 16, 2012 12:44 PM
Comment #353170

SD wrote; “Could they (Israel) endlessly provoke others…”

So glad he reveals his true feelings about the Israelis. They are the provokers, are they? How many wars have Israel’s neighbors instigated against them?

SD has the same juvenile belief about Republicans in congress being responsible for the miserable performance of obama.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 16, 2012 12:52 PM
Comment #353173

Stephen, this thread has gotten off topic, but I want to make one last comment regarding Israel. I make the definitive statement in my last post that Isreal exists because they have weapons and have shown their surrounding enemies that they are not afraid to use them. This has been the deterrent that has allowed them to exist. This is the bottomline. I asked you not to come back with a “yeah, but”, but that is exactly what I got back from you. Yeah, but….they couldn’t do it without our help. You’re right. So what? We should let them get overrun and destroyed?

I don’t want to offend you, but may I ask your age? You come across as a young, idealogue without many life experiences or knowledge of history to back up your theories.

If you don’t want to base this on religion, base it on history….wars have been with us for ever and ever, and will be with us for ever and ever. Playing the wusses role just gets you removed from the game quicker than the opponent who uses all the weapons available to him.

I’m not saying we need to be the aggressors and deal initial blows…I’m saying if someone pokes us in the eye, we need to take their head off. I tell my kids that if someone feeds you a spoonful of crap, and you take it without raising a ruckus, you can expect a second dose shortly thereafter.

That’s why I asked you repeatedly about Truman and WWII. It was surmised that in order to win/end the war, it would be necessary to use the new atomic bombs. If we did not, it was calculated that over a million lives could be lost invading Japan. They were not showing any signs of giving up after Okinawa, and were, in fact, mustering regional militias of women and kids to shore up their defenses.
A MILLION LIVES!

Did Truman make the right decision? Thousands upon thousands or women and children were vaporized…but hundreds of thousands were saved. It was a gutsy call. It was the right call. The generation that most say was our “Greatest Generation” would agree. Use whatever means you have available to end the conflict and save the lives of our sons and daughters.

We will have to make this sort of decision again down the road. History is going to repeat itself. It always does.

Posted by: John Johnson at September 16, 2012 2:56 PM
Comment #353202

John Johnson,

“I’m not saying we need to be the aggressors and deal initial blows…I’m saying if someone pokes us in the eye, we need to take their head off.”

OK, whose head shall we remove?

Were the protests government sponsered?

The funny thing about revenge is that it solves nothing, it merely begets more revenge.

By taking revenge willy nilly, in order to “save the lives of our children”, we give those we seek revenge against the oportunity to tell their children we are no better than they are.

If we cannot be better than those we fight, then what is the point?

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at September 17, 2012 12:39 PM
Comment #353226

Rocky, I am not advocating using cruise missles to now bomb Libya or Egypt, or, or, or, or. ….. What I do suggest is that we quit playing Big Brother, close overseas basis, bring troops home, quit trying to buy love with money and tend to business at home. If we aren’t interfering and propping up tyrants and dictators, we would not be giving others in the world as much reason to hate us. If, however, we do this and they plant bombs in our roadways, fly planes into buildings, etc. we need to make them pay…even if it means taking out the parts of the cities they live in, without regard for innocent loss of life. You live with them, you die with them. Right now, they know we do not have this resolve. They know that the Israeli’s do.

Posted by: John Johnson at September 17, 2012 5:50 PM
Comment #353228

John,

“…we need to make them pay…even if it means taking out the parts of the cities they live in, without regard for innocent loss of life.”

And yet we have done that, and it didn’t seem to work too well.

The point is that there are over a billion Muslims around the world, and the amount of terrorists among them is infinitesimal by comparison.

Francis Bacon wrote;
“In taking revenge, a man is but even with his enemy, but in passing it over he is superior.”

Israel has, in it’s existence, continued to wreak revenge for all of the terrorist acts that have been visited upon it, yet the terrorism doesn’t stop.

Gandhi said “An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind”

IMHO, time is passing much to swiftly for those in the Middle East. They see the influence of the west and yet are still stuck in the Middle Ages.

Their children want to step into the 21st century, and killing them out of an inflated desire for revenge will only make things worse.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at September 17, 2012 7:00 PM
Comment #353306

Israel exists because of the strength they have exhibited when necessary, and terrorism is never going to stop for them. When they turn weak, they will be gone.

You also say we have “done this and it didn’t work too well”. I beg to differ. The last time we gave it all we had to end the conflict as quickly as possible was WWII. It worked as intended. Since then, we have pussy footed, negotiated, played by a set of self imposed war rules that have extended conflicts, emboldened or enemies, and cost us thousands of sons and daughters.

Posted by: John Johnson at September 18, 2012 3:33 PM
Comment #353323

John,

“Since then, we have pussy footed, negotiated, played by a set of self imposed war rules that have extended conflicts…”

None of those actions you speak of were declared wars. We have been involved in “Police actions” in Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq and so on.

Our military wasn’t set up for the conflicts we have been involved in, and you know as well as I how slowly bureaucracies like our Defence Dept move.

Using a nuclear weapon as Truman did would be impossible today. Whether he was right or wrong in using it, the war was ended without the loss of life on our side that would have been expected without it.

At that time the nuclear “club” was pretty exclusive. You can’t say that today, and it now contains some questionable characters.

IMHO the use of such a device today would dissolve this planet into chaos. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it will be impossible to put it back in.

We are not at war with any country at this time. Terrorists work outside the laws of this planet, and as such are criminals, and should be treated as such. Killing innocent people as collateral damage doesn’t solve anything.

Israel survives because they give the impression they have the biggest stick on the block and they aren’t afraid to use it.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at September 18, 2012 6:04 PM
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