Democrats & Liberals Archives

Mitt Romney's Taxpayer Funded Bailout

Maybe Republicans will find a pony somewhere in this horse manure. Maybe not. Bain Capital’s Parent company got looted on its founders’ way out, and Mitt Romney almost collapsed the company trying to rescue it. His solution? Loot the company further and force the FDIC to take a loss on the whole matter. Guess who paid for that?

Posted by Stephen Daugherty at August 30, 2012 5:58 PM
Comments
Comment #351802

Stephen, have you read Matt Taibbi’s article in Rolling Stone yet? It’s a good read that goes into a lot of depth: Greed and Debt: The True Story of Mitt Romney and Bain Capital
How the GOP presidential candidate and his private equity firm staged an epic wealth grab, destroyed jobs – and stuck others with the bill

Posted by: Adrienne at August 30, 2012 6:24 PM
Comment #351814

Stephen, you are still pushing the small issues. Get a life. No one gives a crap about this except you and Adrienne, and both of you are in panic mode.

Posted by: Frank at August 30, 2012 8:38 PM
Comment #351819

Frank

But they care a lot. It is fun for them to try to shrink Romney to fit Obama.

We will transcend them.

It must be very difficult to be an Obama fan these days. Enemies can just quote Obama’s earlier statements to attack him. His promises didn’t happen.

Hope turns to bitterness and hate for the Obama folks. Obama used to talk about what he could do; now his goal is just to tear down opponents with little things.

It is funny that the people who talk the most about about Federal taxpayer money being wasted when they are not really Federal taxpayers.

Posted by: C&J at August 30, 2012 10:35 PM
Comment #351822

Don’t flatter yourselves, or your candidates, you two. It’s a basic issue of trust, of what this guy thinks government is there for. The facts of the article paint a picture of a man who shifted the cost of his fellow Bain Company partners looting of the firm onto the Banks in the FDIC program, and thus consumers. Another damning part is that he couldn’t even keep the firm afloat by regular means.

Romney is supposed to be the guy who will get our ship in order, but why should we strust that, if he couldn’t his ship in order without some very questionable manuevering?

You want to talk small, let’s talk about this reflex of shrinking away from inconvenient truths, this resorting to lying and deception and propaganda to swing votes, rather than making an argument from what can be verified as true.

You can psychoanalyze us, try and fool yourself into believing we’re all in such despair, but the truth is, we’re not angry because Obama might be losing, we’re angry because we’re sick of seeing substantive facts being disputed with blatant, verifiably false lies.

The Republicans are only fooling themselves, and as long as they require the imprimatur of the right wing media, they will never be able to shed the illusions that have turned the GOP into the political laughing stock of the entire world.

As for whether or not I pay federal taxes, I do. I get federal withholding and FICA, and all the rest taken out. I do not keep everything I earn, so you can quit patting yourself on the back, and talking about the lucky duckies.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 30, 2012 11:06 PM
Comment #351823

Did I mention that sales tax here is over eight percent?

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 30, 2012 11:07 PM
Comment #351827

I just have to wonder: who in their right mind lets Clint Eastwood go first in front of a candidate known for being wooden and uncharismatic, and who had the bright idea to let Clint talk to an empty chair?

I don’t want to seem small (that being a major concern on the other side), but as a student of cinema and television, I would think the last thing you want to do with a candidate who you need to burn bright on his own is bring an even stronger personality in first, and then have the man do something so utterly bizarre, that it gets the attention, and sticks in the memory, rather than your candidate.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 30, 2012 11:45 PM
Comment #351828

SD, I believe it was a joke; what’s the difference an empty chair or an empty suit. Obama is aloff, he does not represent Americans issues or beliefs. He is an empty suit.

I thought Clint Eastwood did a great job. Rubio did a great job, and Romney will get a bounce out of this convention. Even one of Maddow’s talking heads on MSNBC thought Romney presented a side of himself to America that had never been seen. Romney had a good, solid speech and he connected with America.

Posted by: Billinflorida at August 31, 2012 12:01 AM
Comment #351829

Billinflorida-
Knowing my generation, and the way the internet works, that chair thing, just the meme of it, is going to be be better remembered than anything Romney said. Tonight is going to be remembered as the night Clint Eastwood talked to a chair at a political convention.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 31, 2012 12:08 AM
Comment #351830

I agree with BIF. It was a joke. Stephen you need to get a life. By the way, I don’t believe I have ever seen any of the movies you have directed, or is your cinema experience just another of your talking points?

Re/your (boring) renewed Bain accusations; who cares? We have moved beyond that talking point. You need to get with the program. After tonight’s Romney speech, Obama is going to be fighting for his political life. There will be a whole new list of personal attacks.

Honestly, to be serious for a moment; I was touched by Rubio’s and Romney’s speech, in fact I teared up a few times. Like Michelle, even though Romney is not yet elected, I am once again beginning to have pride in my country.

Posted by: Frank at August 31, 2012 12:13 AM
Comment #351831

SD, tonight will be remembered for a lot of things, least of which will be Clint Eastwood talking to an empty chair.

You might want it to be about a chair, but you also want the election to be about Bain, but it’s not.

Posted by: Billinflorida at August 31, 2012 12:18 AM
Comment #351833

Frank-
Let me get the Bain accusation out of the way: First, the people that Romney was in business with, rather than look out for the welfare of their company, raided it’s assets for a comfy retirement. When that sent the company into a death spiral, Romney was brought in to try to salvage it. He set up this big plan to deal with the company’s creditors. Unfortunately, the deal backfired, and the company was heading downhill, so what, do we use the resources of the company to pay off debts, and let Bain fail? No, instead, Romney employs a convoluted solution, where he basically drains the company’s cash reserves intentionally into the pockets of the partners in the form of bonuses to frighten the FDIC into into writing off its debts, which gets counted as a loss on the FDIC’s books.

And a gain on Bain Capital’s.

And this is the guy you want to trust with the nation’s finances. If this is the attitude you take, then you deserve what Bush and the other republicans did to you.

Now, as for Romney and Rubio? Nobody’s going to remember the boilerplate speeches, besides the Republicans. Everybody else is going to be talking about the big-name actor who addressed a piece of furniture in a rambling, ad-lib imagined dialogue. Already, the “Invisible Obama” meme is popping up on twitter.

It won’t be long.

As for my experience? I’ve done a little directing with people, but you’ve probably not seen it. Here’s what I would say: the critical thing here is attention, and what you’re doing with it.

First part of the critique: Clint Eastwood certainly gets people’s attention. Do you have him introduce Romney? That’d be what I would do. Get that steely squint working for Romney.

Instead, you have him do this very unusual intermission. Okay, you’ve decided to go with that. Well, do you script the conversation? You could do some funny things with that, and you’d surely avoid having an 82 year old man trying to ad lib both sides of a conversation.

Nope, you let him ad lib. Meaning, you have no control over what he’s saying, and this old man, a good actor, but having to deal with a live situation, will have any shortages of creativity live.

So, before your candidate even takes the stage, you have a train wreck with a superstar actor, and the sheer bizarreness of the whole thing is what people remember.

How can Mitt Romney compete? He’s got nowhere near the name recognition of Clint Eastwood, nor the cultural cache. This is Dirty Harry. This is the Man With No Name. This is the guy who directed a number of modern classics.

And Romney’s got that act to follow. That would be difficult under normal circumstances, but you toss in an unusual sort of skit concept, and you’ve raised the bar on the level of interesting, as compared to a generic speech.

So you got that attention, and what do you do with it? You have an 82 year old man improvising on live television. To a chair. Not even a human being who can throw him a lifeline. As a media student, acting and the craft of performance have been part of what I’ve studied, so when I look at this, even just from a PR perspective, it’s got disaster written all over it.

But no, it appealed to you.

Trouble is, Romney has to compete with Clint Eastwood and a bizarre scene with a chair. And sorry, Romney’s speech wasn’t exactly a game changer. You basically stepped all over the Presidential candidate’s big moment.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 31, 2012 1:11 AM
Comment #351834

Clint Eastwood and the chair — so incredibly bizarre!

I couldn’t help but laugh when Mittens tried to call Obama weak on dictators! Hahaha! Romney was the one who said he didn’t think we should go after Qaddafi! And of course once Qaddafi was dead, he flip-flopped like the greasy-haired weasel he is and said: “It’s about time.” Hilarious.
He’s such chronic liar.
And LOL, I wonder whose brilliant idea it is to try to paint Obama as weak on defense! Hahaha! He’s badass president who ordered the takedown of Bin Laden! What Bush couldn’t do during eight long years in office, Obama managed in only two years — took out the architect of the 9/11 massacre. And, he didn’t do it by dropping a bomb on the place — no it was a surgical strike that allowed us to get all his papers, and computer drives and disks out of that compound!

Posted by: Adrienne at August 31, 2012 1:21 AM
Comment #351835

More to laugh at:
Republican Convention Bombs As Viewership Drops by 17 Million

Their BS doesn’t seem to be going over too well.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 31, 2012 1:54 AM
Comment #351836

One lucky person had the Obama family over for a visit.

Oddly enough, though, it seems like one chair wasn’t exactly empty.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 31, 2012 1:58 AM
Comment #351843

Stephen, let me get this straight; you have a problem with Romney because he re-entered the scene at Bain when they were about to go under, he then saves the company and the numerous jobs it provided. He then goes on to build a company that saved numerous other companies and thousands of job, and you are upset that he did what??? Something illegal??? Or something that some left wing radical managed to dig up accusing Romney of doing something illegal??? But at the same time, you have no problem with Obama who bailed out government motors, who has beaten the taxpayers out of millions that will never be repaid; and you have no problem with Obama using millions of tax dollars to invest in green energy companies, that never built anything, or never created one job. These companies are gone with the wind, and will never, never, never pay the taxpayers back. That money might as well have been set on fire. Stephen, you are a liberal hack, and make no sense at all.

Re/Clint Eastwood; Stephen, you are so jealous of other peoples success. Your arrogance has actually caused you to try to brag to us of your cinema accomplishments and abilities. I have never seen your name in the credits, I will never see your name in the credits, and now you slam a man who has succeeded. Clint Eastwood did fine, he did not introduce Romney, and you are jealous of his success. Rubio introduced Romney. You jump from one little snippet of foolishness to another. You complain about Romney at Bain and now you are complaining about Clint Eastwood’s funny skit. You need to get a life; get out of your parents house, get off the computer and quit playing video games, and get a real job. I am retired and I can get on WB any time I want; but when I was in business and working 16-20 hours a day, I would have had no time for discussion of anything. And yet we find you on here at all hours of the day, you have no wife or kids; you spent most of your life in school or sitting behind a computer screen. Is it your calling in life to be the critic of all conservatives, or is it that you have nothing else in life but to spout little words? Why don’t you get a job working for Obama?

Of all the liberals on WB Stephen, you are the one who tries to impress us with your “knowledge” and “experience” the most; yet almost every other liberal on WB is married, has children, has worked, and has some life experience. Even Warped Reality is willing to admit his inexperience; but you have no experience in anything, yet you come on WB as a liberal hack attacking anyone of success and jealous of any successful person’s wealth.

Posted by: Frank at August 31, 2012 9:07 AM
Comment #351844

SD and Adrienne

You guys are a hoot!

Personally I thought Eastwood was great. He made his point and made it well.

He showed the empty suit, chair, policies, and just plain empty.

It is expected that they would react the way they did.

I think it is funny how their character just gets in their way.

Liberats, leftists, socialists, progressives, et al have absolutely nothing to be positive about. Well, just get out of our way while we move on (pun not intended).

Maranatha

Posted by: tom humes at August 31, 2012 9:16 AM
Comment #351848

Frank-
Let me put this plainly. Romney more or less blackmailed the FDIC into taking a loss on his company, a company that wasn’t going down because of misfortune, but because its owners had raided too much money out of it on their way out. Who ended up paying? Everybody who pays into the FDIC, the banks, and by extension the depositors whose accounts are insured by it.

You want to cast that as saving jobs? Your problem is, there were alternative choices Romney and Company could have made, more responsible ones.

I don’t really get this Ayn Rand Jealosy things. Right now, I’ve got two movies checked out: Inspector Morse: Service of All the Dead, and Million Dollar Baby. In my personal collection, I have a number of his movies. I look at him as somebody to emulate, not somebody I would wish something like this on.

Clint Eastwood shouldn’t have done an improvised skit, he should have done a scripted speech, an intro. Then he could have delivered a charge not just to the RNC patrons who were primed to react to Anti-Obama humor, but to everybody.

That’s the problem sometimes with the way Republicans deal with the public. You need to be willing and able to connect beyond those who share all your beliefs, because preaching to the choir doesn’t win you elections.

As far as my qualifications go, I think I’m relatively knowledgeable about acting, directing, and producing films. I didn’t just go to college to learn the craft, I’ve watched hundreds of movies, even drilled down into the making of material and the commentaries to learn whatever I could. I’ve learned screenwriting, dramatic structure, and have educated myself in neuroscience as well, to give me an added edge.

The problem, last night, is that you put a big attention-getter on, and didn’t have him funnel attention to Romney. An introduction, a testimonial on his behalf would have been a better idea. I know you probably think it was a great and hilarious idea for Clint to throw a bunch of anti-Obama rhetoric and jokes at an empty chair, but in the end, people aren’t thinking about Romney at that point, which is the whole point of the evening! They are thinking about what looks to many people to be a strange, rambling, one-sided dialogue to a chair, done by a famous actor too famous to be ignored.

So, you’ve distracted people, and worse yet, distracted them with something that had most people going “WTF?”

And what Romney do to take back that attention? He gave a speech the kindest of critics called adequate, but which had others wondering where the substance was.

You can build yourself up till you’re foaming at the mouth, but if those independents don’t pick up on Romney, if all the human interest stuff fails to “shake the giant etch-a-sketch to its core”, then the Convention was a waste.

You let your lead actor get overshadowed by the cameo, a cameo so bizarre, it will eclipse much of Romney’s attempt to connect with people.

If you want a secular example, take the Architect sequence from The Matrix Reloaded. they stopped what had been a breathless action picture up until that point to have this Colonel Sanders looking fellow give a 25 cent word laden explanation of the situation of the whole series. It wasn’t necessarily awful, but it was sufficiently strange that it helped underwhelm people with the film, and it would later spawn a parody with Will Farrell that was popular in its own right. A lot of people probably know that parody better than the film it lampoons. Point on that example is, sometimes you need to better manage your tone when you’re ending your show, because if you derail things at that point, there’s no safety net left to catch people’s opinion of the film.

Or maybe the case of Marlon Brando, in The Island of Doctor Moreau, where the director, for some odd reason, let the aging actor take the role and turn it into a bizarre piece of theatre. You even had Val Kilmer making fun of that characterization right in the film. Nobody disputes Marlon Brando’s skill as an actor, but sometimes you have to say no to your actors.

As for your critique of me?

I think the fact you put so much effort into characterizing me indicates how little regard you have for rational discourse, that or how weak you are at it. I might not be a big businessman, a movie star or a director, but that doesn’t make me wrong. The truth is what makes us right or wrong, and so long as you rely less on the truth, and more on trying to overpeople with your malice and contempt, you will never reach or even much defeat those who simply know to dust your ill-will off their shoulder.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 31, 2012 12:20 PM
Comment #351849

The more research done, the clearer it is that the business successes of Romneys resume are either an illusion or a lie. Ryan showed he’s a total liar too. Nice convention. It will be clear who the better management organization is when we see the democrats.

Posted by: Schwamp at August 31, 2012 12:46 PM
Comment #351851

“Frank-
Let me put this plainly. Romney more or less blackmailed the FDIC into taking a loss on his company” Stephen Daugherty

Stephen-
Let me put this plainly. Did money break any laws? You say he blackmailed the FDIC…blackmail is a crime…was Romney charged for blackmail? Or is this just another figment of your imagination?

Again Stephen said:

“I look at him as somebody to emulate, not somebody I would wish something like this on…
Clint Eastwood shouldn’t have done an improvised skit, he should have done a scripted speech, an intro. Then he could have delivered a charge not just to the RNC patrons who were primed to react to Anti-Obama humor, but to everybody.”

So Stephen wants to emulate the successful life of Clint Eastwood, and then he has the audacity to say what Clint Eastwood should have done to be successful. This is the height of arrogance. I’m surprised Stephen Daugherty wasn’t asked to come to the RNC Convention for the purpose of directing the Clint Eastwood skit.

Stephen, why would you give any advice as to what the Republicans should have done? You would have just attacked anything they did. Why would you even car what they should do?

“As far as my qualifications go, I think I’m relatively knowledgeable about acting, directing, and producing films. I didn’t just go to college to learn the craft, I’ve watched hundreds of movies, even drilled down into the making of material and the commentaries to learn whatever I could. I’ve learned screenwriting, dramatic structure, and have educated myself in neuroscience as well, to give me an added edge.”

Stephen, give it up. We don’t care about your qualifications, “IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU STEPHEN”. If you were qualified at anything, you wouldn’t be on WB.

“I think the fact you put so much effort into characterizing me indicates how little regard you have for rational discourse”

Stephen, you are a liberal hack, an Obama worshipper, a defender of socialism; my characterization of you determined a long time ago that rational discourse with you is impossible. You are a defender of the left; how do you have rational discourse with someone who is blind to his own party’s deficiencies. You believe you are right and everyone else is stupid. How do you have discourse with this mentality? You have never seen a “fact” that you are not willing to pervert.

Posted by: Frank at August 31, 2012 3:17 PM
Comment #351852

Did I mention that sales tax here is over eight percent?
Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 30, 2012

“Here” is Texas. I pay 8 1/4% in my county. What Doughboy didn’t mention is that Texas does not have a state income tax.

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 31, 2012 3:37 PM
Comment #351853

Royal Flush

Is that part of the “research”, “evidence” and “facts” that Doughboy spews?

Just wonderin’

Maranatha

Posted by: tom humes at August 31, 2012 4:01 PM
Comment #351854

Stephen Daugherty has moved on to another snapping at the heels of Mitt Romney. I would like to remind everyone of Stephen’s last bite at Romney’s heels; he wrote a whole post telling us that the Republicans would lose the Senate and Romney would lose because of the outrageous comments of MO Senate candidate Akin. In fact every liberal on WB parroted the talking points of Daugherty, who parroted the talking points of Obama and company. Daugherty’s post:

As the Old Saying goes…

Lie down with dogs…

Get up with fleas.

Sometimes a gaffe is defined as a candidate accidentally saying what they really believe. We can imagine a magic fairy land where evil witch’s spells (was that Christine O’Donnell I saw running by?) are the relief-inducing explanation for such words, but I’m of the opinion that the likeliest explanation is the simplest one.

Posted by Stephen Daugherty at August 19, 2012 11:48 PM

Now here is my comment about Daugherty’s post:

“Comment #351198

This post is just another, in a long list of lame attempts to change the subject from Obama’s failed presidency to some stupid comment that don’t mean shit.

This post is a waste; next week the left will have moved on to some other crisis.

Posted by: Frank at August 20, 2012 9:47 PM

The left were quoting polls showing Akin, who had a lead, now with a 10 deficit. Daugherty even used a Rasmussen Poll, which he thinks is a conservative poll, to try to drive home the point that Akin was losing. It was brought out that snap decision daily polls are weak and even Stephen Daugherty, in the past, has refused to use snap polls. But his gloating got the best of him and he had to gloat over the Rasmussen poll. I stated, it doesn’t mean anything; that MO is a Bible Belt state, and that given the opportunity to vote for the most pro-life Senate candidate Akin, or the baby killing McCaskill, the vote will go for Akin. Well guess what:

“Missouri voters strongly disagree with the comments Todd Akin made about abortion over the weekend, but it hasn’t moved the numbers a whole lot in the Senate race. Akin leads Claire McCaskill by a single point, 44-43. That’s basically identical to our last poll of the contest in late May, which found Akin ahead by a 45-44 spread”

This was PPP democratic polling.

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2012/08/akin-44-mccaskill-43.html

So, another talking point of the left debunked, let’s move on to Bain Capital again.

Posted by: Frank at August 31, 2012 4:10 PM
Comment #351856

I was much impressed by the articulate up and coming Republicans featured at the convention. They all had a common theme of self-reliance, love of family and God, and success based upon hard work and persistence.

I don’t believe that any of the speakers spoke against government and how critical it is in our Democratic Republic. Unlike many on the left, they promote a government confined to the parameters found in our Constitution. They don’t find “new rights” with every group demanding them.

A government that consumes 20% of our GDP is large enough. It is not the business of government to plan our economy and it is not the business of government to award favors to groups demanding them.

I am extremely proud of our country and the role we have played for decades in world affairs. We are still recognized as the place where dreams still come true with hard work and devotion. Immigrants flock to our shores for our blessings of liberty and opportunity…not hand-outs.

We have been led astray by those who wish us to become more like the socialists of the world. The November election is more than just about jobs and our economy. It is about the battle between socialism and freedom.

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 31, 2012 4:13 PM
Comment #351857

Doughboy has a habit of making comments misrepresenting the facts; do you suppose he forgot TX has no state income tax, or was he being fraudulent? Inquiring minds want to know…

Posted by: Frank at August 31, 2012 4:15 PM
Comment #351858

Breaking News…I now understand Doughboy’s comments about Clint Eastwood. Fox News just showed a montage of remarks made by Lawrence O’Donnell, Al Sharpton, and Rachel Madcow. Guess what, Doughboys comments about Eastwood were EXACTLY what the three on PMSNBC said. Doughboy…once again is carrying the torch for the MSM libs.

Posted by: Frank at August 31, 2012 4:23 PM
Comment #351860

Royal Flush, I am proud too. I am also proud of the fact the Republican Party has more Mayors, Governors, Congressmen, and Senators who are Hispanic than the Democrat Party. I am proud that these Latinos are young, intelligent, and vibrant and the future of the Republican Party.

The liberal MSM’s, for some unkown reason, failed to cover every speech of these conservative Latino speakers, but did manage to use their talking heads slam the Republican Party as racist.

Will America believe this BS?

Posted by: Billinflorida at August 31, 2012 4:34 PM
Comment #351861

Frankly, I found the Eastwood appearance funny and refreshing and a welcome respite from the serious business of nominating our next president and vice president and hearing their goals and plans for our future. Conventions are loaded with speakers with lofty ideals and solemn promises. Injecting some humor is very appropriate. And contrary to Stephens objections, I believe the placement of Eastwood in that spot was brilliant.

I believe it took a lot of guts for Eastwood to appear and speak at the convention. He will get endless ribbing from his Hollywood pals and he knows it, and doesn’t care. He certainly didn’t speak at the convention for money or fame…he already has that in abundance. He obviously intended to poke a little fun at the little man we now have sitting in the Oval Office. And, he did it without a script…amazing for a man his age.

I wonder if the dems will try and find someone with which to parry the Eastwood appearance. I vote for Bill Mahr. I think I spelled his name correctly. Now there’s a guy who can really boost obama’s ratings. Of course, it will be necessary to “bleep” most of what he says.

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 31, 2012 4:49 PM
Comment #351862

Royal, I was not able to listen to Rush Limbaugh today, but I was curious of opinion about Clint Eastwood. He has the transcript of his account at this site:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2012/08/31/clint_got_under_obama_s_skin

I was reading parts of it to my wife and it was hilarious. The left is beside themselves at Eastwood’s speech, or skit or whatever; they are attacking him as senile, not knowing where he was at or what he was saying, but when you read his comments in the transcript, you see it was planned this way. It was great, and Limbaugh, who is on Obama’s twitter and email account, post a picture of Obama sitting in his presidential chair just moments after Eastwood spoke. It got under his skin.

Posted by: Billinflorida at August 31, 2012 5:15 PM
Comment #351863

You conservatives seem blissfully unaware of what is going on. Maybe it’s better that way. Eastwood made himself into a national laughingstock, and it’s all over the web. As of this morning, InvisibleObama on Twitter had 35,000 subscribers, and the jokes keep flying. Funny stuff. The conservative base, hopelessly insulated inside its own echo chamber, doesn’t get it.

The enduring image of the Republican convention will be an old man yelling at an empty chair.

Breaking news: Clint Eastwood is yelling at an invisible Joe Biden standing at a urinal.

Now we know why Obama always wins at musical chairs.

Breaking: Clint Eastwood has just endorsed the chair.

Clint Eastwood; I hate lawyers and politicians. And now: here’s Mitt Romney!!!

LOL.

Clint Eastwood is now backstage arguing with a vending machine.

Get off that chair on my lawn!!!

It just goes on and on and on.

Posted by: phx8 at August 31, 2012 5:17 PM
Comment #351865

phx8??? I guess you had to be there to understand the humor.

Posted by: Frank at August 31, 2012 5:26 PM
Comment #351866

35,000…really, what a huge number. And, of course phx knows they are laughing AT Eastwood and NOT with Eastwood.

“Yelling”…I didn’t hear any yelling. Eastwood hardly ever yells…he speaks softly and carries a big GUN. What channel were you watching phx…did they have the canned yelling you speak of?

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 31, 2012 5:29 PM
Comment #351867

Yep. Nothing spells cool to the kids, nothing captures that youth vote quite like the sight of an old man arguing with an empty chair.

Posted by: phx8 at August 31, 2012 5:33 PM
Comment #351868

Romney mentioned his belief that America can be energy independent by 2020. I thought that might be some fluff. After the convention I tuned into CNN and the dem pols were agreeing with that comment. Sure hope that prediction turns out to be correct. What a change that could make in our foreign policy and the unrest in the middle east. Take our dependence on oil out of the middle east and it frees us to do many things we are restrained from doing now.

Of course, Romney was talking mostly about fossil fuel energy and the dems were probably talking about other kinds of energy. I believe it will be a combination of the two.

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 31, 2012 5:39 PM
Comment #351869

Royal Flush,
There’s many a slip twixt the cup and the lip, but yes, the US is on track to be energy independent by 2020 and a net exporter of oil.

Romney also predicted his administration would add 12 million jobs by 2020. It’s an odd prediction, since economists expect the US to add 12 million jobs by 2016. Romney has made that odd prediction before. He needs to do better.

Posted by: phx8 at August 31, 2012 5:52 PM
Comment #351870
I was much impressed by the articulate up and coming Republicans featured at the convention. They all had a common theme of self-reliance, love of family and God, and success based upon hard work and persistence.

I was to Royal. I was only able to catch bits and pieces of the convention but the parts I saw were true “Leave it to Beaver” moments. A couple of movement die hards I work with were all aglow today reliving the Rubio moments. They believe he is the future. Of course they believe quite a bit, including the theory about the moon landing being faked.

That being said talk is cheap, or action speaks louder than words. I know tired old cliches, but so very true. Remember what the Nazi’s promised the German people of the 30’s? Remember what they got instead?
Much like C&J’s meaning of “small” when referring to Obama the conservatives still want to make the government “small” and when they are in power they work hard to do so. Just because they didn’t tell you the truth doesn’t mean they don’t want to do just that. They know how easily led most Americans are when “self reliance”, “family”,”God” and so on are invoked.

Romney is disliked because he is not a job creator despite the conservatives attempts to make him one. He is no Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. They created jobs and made billions and people like them. Romney is a “make money at any cost” thug, not a businessman. He trashed not created,and if money was made it was by him and his cronies. But this is who those swooning faces we saw at the convention, those same people who claim self reliance, God and family in their speeches delivered to the American people as their choice to lead us. What is wrong with you guys?

Posted by: j2t2 at August 31, 2012 6:14 PM
Comment #351871

j2t2

Your Nazi kick is wearing thin. Are you a skinhead? Maybe the Nazi theme is just part of your inner self. Whatever it is it is now tiresome to hear your one lane hiway to stormtooper hell.

Maranatha

Posted by: tom humes at August 31, 2012 6:30 PM
Comment #351873

Actions speak louder than words; while Romney went to flood ravaged areas in LA; it caught Obama with his pants down and Obama had to cancel campaign events in MI and OH. He is heading down on Monday; he has just one more fundraiser before he goes. I remember when Bush was castigated for taking too long to get to LA during Katrina.

Pay attention to the latest news sound bites of Obama speaking before troops and answering Romney’s charges of cuts to the military. Those troops were forced to sit there; not one reaction in their faces, blank stares, and no cheers or handclaps.


I like to pay attention to the small things.

Posted by: Billinflorida at August 31, 2012 7:10 PM
Comment #351874

j2t2

Suffice to say, you should really study a little more history and stop misusing the analogies with the National Socialist Workers Party.

Nazis had lot of “scientific” ideas about races and natural selection among races. Communist believed in class struggle; Nazis believes in race struggle. Neither believed individuals much mattered. The Nazis promised the German people:

-The abolition of unearned income;
- Nationalization of trusts;
- Inclusion into profit-sharing;
- Increase in old-age pensions;
- Creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class;
- Agrarian reform, which included the seizing of land without compensation;
- State control of education;

As Hitler himself said, “We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions.”

He succeeded, at least for a while.

Posted by: C&J at August 31, 2012 7:15 PM
Comment #351876
Your Nazi kick is wearing thin. Are you a skinhead? Maybe the Nazi theme is just part of your inner self. Whatever it is it is now tiresome to hear your one lane hiway to stormtooper hell

Tom I realize it is tiresome. But just think if someone would have sounded the alarm and the people of Germany in the 30’s would have listened. If they wouldn’t have fallen for the Reichstag fire and the blaming of the “commies”.

Tom I know logic is in short supply in the movement but ask yourself this If j2 is a skinhead why would he be comparing the conservative movement and the people of Germany of the 30’s on such a regular basis. It’s what I am against Tom not what I am for. Perhaps you should ask yourself why you defend movement leaders despite all the misinformation half truths and outright lies they have been spreading as they attempt to take control of the country.

As we speak Tom we have conservatives suppressing the vote. We have conservative leaders blaming the “socialist liberals” for the economy despite evidence to the contrary. Your chosen 2nd in command Lyin’ Ryan has lied to all of us over medicare amongst other issues, and has diverted blame for his actions unto the current leader of the free world. Yet you Tom want to try and divert attention away from these guys by attacking me and claiming I am one of them.

Posted by: j2t2 at August 31, 2012 7:26 PM
Comment #351877

C&J no matter how you try to revise history the Nazi’s were conservatives. But that isn’t the real issue here. The issue is how many conservative movement followers are being misled by conservative movement leaders as the German people were misled by Hitler during the late 20’s and early 30’s.

“Oct 16, 1929 Liberty Law campaign officially begins. The Nazi Party joins a coalition of conservative groups under Hugenberg’s leadership to oppose the Young Plan.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_timeline_of_Nazism

“Although the Young plan had effectively reduced Germany’s obligations, it was opposed by parts of the political spectrum in Germany. Conservative groups had been most outspoken in opposition to reparations and seized on opposition to the Young Plan as an issue. A coalition was formed of various conservative groups under the leadership of Alfred Hugenberg, the head of the German National People’s Party. One of the groups that joined this coalition was Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist German Workers Party, a group which had previously been dismissed as an extremist fringe by the more mainstream conservative parties.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Law

What we need to take from this Tom and C&J is just how far to the extremist right the conservative movement has come since the days of Reagan. Lyin’ Ryan is one of these extremist leaders. The movement is easily led astray as the past 4 years has shown us. You guys will believe anything these guys tell you.


Your leadership has proven they can no longer work with mainstream political leadership and intentionally try to usurp power and control to the detriment of the country. They cover this up and blame the other politicians with regard for truth.

Posted by: j2t2 at August 31, 2012 7:39 PM
Comment #351878

Republicans cannot vote for Romney now. He used a teleprompter for his speech.

Posted by: Tom at August 31, 2012 8:35 PM
Comment #351879

Frank-

Stephen, give it up. We don’t care about your qualifications, “IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU STEPHEN”. If you were qualified at anything, you wouldn’t be on WB.

Nope. But it’s funny you say that, since EVERY comment you make has some potshot at me.

Quickly… hmm. Akin’s damage has been done, and now there’s a crack in the concrete. He’s weaker, and all he has to do is not keep his big mouth shut. Maybe he’s recovered. Maybe he still wins. But that is far less of a certainty than it once was, and any further blunder will hand her the win.

Doughboy. A name for a pre-WWII infantryman. Flattering, though I think you were unaware of the association. As for taxes? Of course I know. I pay taxes myself, have filled out several returns during the course of my life. We compensate in Texas by having a high property and sales tax rate, the two-legged stool. Since I was not incorrect about how highs sales tax is in Texas, there is no fraud except your implication.

In general, on the Clint Eastwood thing? His performance appealed to some, but to many people, it was just embarrassing and surreal. And I would encourage more Republicans to go into denial about these things, because it’s very endearing and advantageous for Republicans not to realize how awfully their ideas have backfired, so long as they’re confined to the campaign trail. It’s when this stupidity comes around to actual policy that people die over the stubbornness of leaders.

The conservatives are vulnerable, despite their dogmatic defense, or rather because of it. Because they refuse to acknowledge what others see, they end up making it more difficult for their own party to shake the bad ideas, bad decisions, and gaffes.

The Republican Party is strangling its own ability to see themselves as others see them.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 31, 2012 8:45 PM
Comment #351882

phx8, the Clint Eastwood meme is all over the web!
Here’s some new movie titles for Clint Eastwood:
The Old, The Sad, And The Nutty.
A Fistful Of Incoherence.
Dismal Harry.
Play Ditsy For Me.
Every Which Way But Lucid.
Million Dollar Babble.
:^)

Pay attention to the latest news sound bites of Obama speaking before troops and answering Romney’s charges of cuts to the military. Those troops were forced to sit there; not one reaction in their faces, blank stares, and no cheers or handclaps.

I like to pay attention to the small things.

Me too. And I have never before seen a presidential candidate give a speech accepting the nomination of his political party to become the Commander in Chief of the United States who didn’t think to mention our Troops AT ALL. Not even once.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 31, 2012 9:39 PM
Comment #351883

Stephen, Conservatives are not vulnerable, it is Obama that is vulnerable for his handleing of the economy, jobs and the debt. By the way I think Frank was refering to the Pillsberry Doughboy NOT the pre WW2 version.

Posted by: KAP at August 31, 2012 9:42 PM
Comment #351884

Tom-
A Teleprompter?

Nooooooooooooo! Say it’s not so!

It’s amazing how many things I remember being seen as perfectly reasonable that Republicans have made awful and bad, just for the sake of attacking Obama. C&J talk about smallness on our side, but they’ve been turning on him for normal things, petty things. A golf game every other week.

For all the hatred of Clinton, their President was worse. if they defeat Obama, what does their dislike of him do to make them better leaders. Republicans are so obsessed with getting power, that they’ve neglected to learn the proper way to use it.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 31, 2012 9:43 PM
Comment #351885
I like to pay attention to the small things.

And it shows Frank. Conservatives are small as are the tea baggers who use the smallest of ideas to influence the smallest of minds. What is surprising here is just how small the things you pay attention to. Seems to me you miss a lot of bigger things like the lies from Romney and Ryan and their corporate money men. I also notice that while you conservatives seem to like small things you try to convince us Obama is small, hardly logical is it?

Posted by: j2t2 at August 31, 2012 10:00 PM
Comment #351886

Adrienne,
Romney’s speech was the first time since Eisenhower that a candidate did not even mention a war or the troops. Eisenhower, of course, did not really need to mention anything about the military, given his experience and reputation.

There was very little about foreign policy in the speech. Romney did go on about some weird Neocon stuff. He seems anxious to pick a fight with Russia.

“He (Obama) abandoned our friends in Poland by walking away from our missile defense commitments, but is eager to give Russia’s President Putin the flexibility he desires, after the election. Under my administration, our friends will see more loyalty, and Mr. Putin will see a little less flexibility and more backbone.”

What on earth does Romney have in mind? It’s 2012, not 1980.

We’ll see if the Republicans can suppress enough votes to win states like OH & PA. The efforts in PA are particularly pernicious.

“Voter ID, which is gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done.”
Mike Tarzai, GOP House Leader, PA 6/15/12

The Voter ID law in PA could disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of voters, predominantly Democratic voters, since the ID requirements disproportionately affect the poor, the elderly, and minorities. It has been enacted despite the fact there is not one- NOT ONE- example of voter fraud being committed in person in PA.

But that’s what Republicans have become these days. Their devotion to democracy and the idea of a republic are weak tea, indeed. Shameful, shameful, shameful. Let’s see if any of them have the guts to denounce their own party for this egregious, shameful attack on our right to vote.

Their patriotism is directed towards their party.

Not their country.

Posted by: phx8 at August 31, 2012 10:16 PM
Comment #351890

Stephen

“For all the hatred of Clinton, their President was worse.” Clinton was my president, so was Bush and Obama. And if things go as I hope they will, Romney will be your president soon.

J2t2

“C&J no matter how you try to revise history the Nazi’s were conservatives.”

It depends on what you want to describe by that term. I heard the communist in Russia that wanted to keep the communist system described as conservatives, and they were if you mean conserving the existing system. But they were nothing like conservatives in the U.S.

We have to judge by what they do. The Nazi called themselves socialists. They believed in state ownership or control of major enterprises. They disparaged the free market. They disregard established religion and advocated revolutionary changes in their society.

It is a sign of intelligence to be able to look beyond the names hung on things and see what they really are. You have been told that Nazis are conservatives and are evidently unable to think for yourself to see differences. You are also evidently unable to understand that things change over time and in different places. In the past, liberals stood firmly for LESS government and even today liberals in Europe tend to advocate policies that would be called conservative in the U.S. When we say that a country has “liberalized” its economy, we usually mean that they have relaxed government control.

But if it makes you happy to stick to the definitions someone told you long ago and not understand the complexity of the world or the changing nature of words, I suppose there is little anyone can do to change your closed mind.

One of the great propaganda coups of both the communists and the Nazis was to convince many people in free parts of the world that communists and Nazis were opposites. It is true that they were enemies, but they were enemies in the same sense that heretics of the same religion hate each other more than they hate non-believers.

I regret if this upsets the world view that some junior HS teacher imparted to you, but if you look around a little and read a little more, you will see that I am right.

I expect you will not think about this, however. It is too convenient and too long standing a practice for liberals to call conservatives Nazis. Conservatives, of course, tend to call liberals communists. Both are wrong. As I said, this results from the propaganda victory of communists and Nazis, both of whom were horrible and bear only superficial resemblance to anything anywhere near the middle of American politics.

Re the mainstream of America - let’s see who wins the election. Whomever wins will represent the mainstream of America. I accept either outcome as legitimate. I will support my president (Romney or Obama) in the exercise of his duties, reserving my right as an American to legally dissent. I expect and demand the same from all of you.

And let’s never again here, from left or right, the term “your president”. Whether we like him or not, he is always OUR president.

Posted by: C&J at August 31, 2012 10:39 PM
Comment #351893

phx8,

There was a bit of good news about Ohio that I read about in the LA Times today:
Federal judge restores early voting in Ohio
In a victory for the Obama campaign, he orders the state to open its polling places three days before the Nov. 6 election.

Their patriotism is directed towards their party.

Not their country.

Indeed. And, to 1% Fat Cats like Romney. Speaking of which, Mitten’s just committed a funny little Freudian slip on the stump: Romney misspeaks, calls the United States a ‘company’

Posted by: Adrienne at August 31, 2012 11:15 PM
Comment #351895

Adrienne,
Yes, there’s good news in OH for those in favor of ensuring voting rights, and bad news for Republicans who seek to suppress the right of the people to vote. However, that ruling is subject to appeal, so it’s not over yet.

For those unfamiliar with the low and despicable actions of Republicans in OH, the local boards that make decisions concerning voting consist of two Dems & two Reps. If an issue like extending hours to vote arises, the OH Secretary of State casts a tie breaker vote. In every district with a history of voting Republican, voting hours were extended. In every Democratic district, the local Republicans voted against extending hours in every single case, in every single district, and in each case, the Republican Secretary of State, a fellow named Husted, sided with the local Republicans AGAINST extending voting hours.

You Republicans should be ashamed, deeply ashamed.

Posted by: phx8 at September 1, 2012 12:11 AM
Comment #351898

phx8

I am happy if we protect the right to vote. That means ensuring that there is no fraud, since each vote cast illegally is a vote stolen from a legitimate voter.

I understand that Democrats are convinced that their voters are too dumb or lazy to be able to follow the sorts of simple procedures that anybody needs to do just to get through an average day. I have more confidence in people’s basic abilities than you all do. I just don’t think that Democratic voters are so dumb or lazy that they cannot figure out how to vote if they want to.

I also firmly believe that every eligible voter has the right to vote, but we have no affirmative responsibility to facilitate or encourage it. People too lazy or dumb to vote are probably doing us all a favor by staying home, as is their option.

We should encourage people to be responsible enough to make informed decision and we should respect their decisions even if they disagree with ours. However, there is no virtue in the mere fact of voting.

I understand that it is out of style in some circles to encourage people to work hard and be responsible. But I always liked the idea that we should strive to be worthy of success rather than strive for success itself. I would be ashamed to be other than this.

What you all are trying to do now is to set yourselves up to be able to claim a Republican victory was unjustified. When I tell you that “my” president is the one who wins, since as a patriotic American I support my president, you are just puzzled.

Adrienne

All the candidates for president and vice president are in the 1%. Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are in the 1%. The leaders of major labor unions are in the 1%. All of us would hope to get into the top 1% sometime.

Posted by: C&J at September 1, 2012 1:01 AM
Comment #351902

Being elderly and no longer having a drivers license has nothing to do with being dumb or lazy. Being poor is not the same as being lazy. Being handicapped is not the same as being stupid.

That you would attempt to justify disenfranchising the young, the old, the poor, and a disproportionate number of people belonging to minorities speaks volumes.

Voting is a right. Period.

Posted by: phx8 at September 1, 2012 2:04 AM
Comment #351939

Stephen, KAP is correct, I was referring to the Pillsbury Doughboy. Stephen is the one who posted a pic of himself on his link. I would certainly never refer to Stephen as someone vaguely connected with the men of the military.

“Frank-
“Stephen, give it up. We don’t care about your qualifications, “IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU STEPHEN”. If you were qualified at anything, you wouldn’t be on WB.”

Nope. But it’s funny you say that, since EVERY comment you make has some potshot at me.”

Stephen, taking potshots at you is easy; you are full of yourself. All one has to do is say something about your credentials and you go into a montage of your qualifications, your intelligence quotient, your degrees, and your accomplishments. Who cares what you have or have done?

Re/Akin, a week ago he, according to you, he was finished, he was taking the TP conservatives down with him, he was guaranteeing McCaskill a win, and he was going to cause Romney/Ryan to lose; but now, “Maybe he’s recovered. Maybe he still wins. But that is far less of a certainty than it once was, and any further blunder will hand her the win.”

Re/Eastwood; it’s just another in a long line of liberal talking points designed to change the subject from Obama’s failed policies. Stephen, if we can count on one certainty, it is that you will be sure to bring to WB the latest talking points of the left. Last week it was Akin, today it’s Eastwood, next week it will be something else. I would suggest you go back through the months of liberal posts on WB and take the posts and correlate them with the talking points of the left. They are all meant to be a reason to change the subject of Obama’s failed policies.

The only one outraged by Eastwood is the 20% of socialist liberals in America, including the nutcases at PMSNBC. Nobody else cares.

“The conservatives are vulnerable, despite their dogmatic defense, or rather because of it. Because they refuse to acknowledge what others see, they end up making it more difficult for their own party to shake the bad ideas, bad decisions, and gaffes.
The Republican Party is strangling its own ability to see themselves as others see them.”

Stephen is this another liberal talking point or are you being delusional? I don’t think Conservatives are vulnerable; 40% of Americans are conservative and the 40% of independents are leaning conservative. You do the math.

Posted by: Frank at September 1, 2012 9:12 AM
Comment #351941

Speaking of taxpayer funded. Has anyone heard about Californias latest ponzi scheme? It takes 3% of a persons wages and puts it into a govt. run retirment program. You can opt out, but it is automatic unless you tell your employer you wish to opt out. How long do you suppose it will be before these idiots realize it will be underfunded unless they force evreyone to contribute. Of course that is probably already in the works. Another piggybank to raid like soc. sec. Money will be replaced with IOUs that will never be repaid. When will these libs learn?

http://news.yahoo.com/calif-lawmakers-ok-private-sector-retirement-plan-040353380—finance.html

Posted by: dbs at September 1, 2012 10:44 AM
Comment #351943

C&J-
And these socialists happened to hate the Marxists, who also called themselves socialists. It may not be obvious to folks here, but socialism doesn’t have to mean anything especially Marxist. The confusion, while rhetorically helpful for some lazy souls, is profoundly misguided and misleading.

The argument ad Hitlerum is overused enough that there’s even an informal internet rule about it, called Godwin’s Law. Look it up.

As for what I said about the President? As in belonging to your party. Your people hounded Clinton, and then turned around and a scandal ridden Presidency of their own, in fact losing their entire majority at its end. Now Republicans are trying the same here. I don’t think Romney will be any better of a President for all the GOP hated Obama.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 1, 2012 10:48 AM
Comment #351945

Charlie Daniel’s said, the objection from the left is not Clint Eastwood, but rather Clint Eastwood’s message.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2012/08/31/clint_got_under_obama_s_skin

Listen to Eastwood’s words; it was brilliant, and it was from an American everybody loves.

Of course, the first thing the left does is personal attacks. I bet Eastwood don’t give a crap, LOL.

Posted by: Billinflorida at September 1, 2012 10:50 AM
Comment #351946
I expect you will not think about this, however. It is too convenient and too long standing a practice for liberals to call conservatives Nazis. Conservatives, of course, tend to call liberals communists. Both are wrong…..

Once again C&J your missing the point entirely. What I have consistently said is conservative movement followers of today are like the people of Germany in the late 20’s and early 30’s. They were misled by the Nazi’s just like the conservative movement followers of today are misled on the same scale, with the same techniques, by bad people.

It is you and your conservative friends who then plunge headfirst into the waters of obfuscation. The ocean of revisionist history. Y’all tend not to be able to separate the name Nazi from the point of being led by this generations power mad leaders. It doesn’t take a junior high education to be able to see the difference between what I have said and where you like to head the discussion.

And let’s never again here, from left or right, the term “your president”. Whether we like him or not, he is always OUR president.

Kinda like Eastwood calling the chair Mr. Obama. I think it is good manners to refer to the sitting president as our president but when we then start spreading lies and name calling it kinda takes the shine off the apple of good manners doesn’t it. Probably better to face the exclusiveness of the conservatives head on IMHO, C&J. Putting the divisiveness of conservative politics this past 3 years into the “make believe it didn’t happen” pile just doesn’t work for me.

Using the same old line of “we need a businessman ” for president doesn’t work for me either. We tried that, thank you very much conservatives, it was the GWB administrations and by the RNC’s glaring omissions of GWB at this convention it is agreed to be the worst political failure in the history of the country. Lets face it Clint Eastwood as a speaker GWB not even in attendance. Jeb still loves him though.


You guys spend to much effort time and money dividing us as a country instead of trying to bring us together as a country. It’s not just the vote suppression your side in engaged in it is the attacks on…. wait a minute, the vote suppression thing is a centralized plan by conservatives isn’t it. An extremist group ALEC is spearheading it aren’t they. No wonder you want the government “small” C&J.

http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed

Well it seems I am rambling as much as Mr. Eastwood did during his speech. I found it very entertaining I must admit. He dispelled a conservative myth for starters, you guys did pick up on that didn’t you? Then he showed the world republicans do have a sense of humor that goes beyond degrading other people. Well maybe not the world judging by the low numbers of viewers this time around. The Afghanistan hypocrisy was typical repub. But all in all I have to say he was entertaining and so what if he was off on his unemployment numbers it was the repubs should we have expected anything less.

BTW if you guys are all businessmen why is it you just cannot get the numbers right?

Posted by: j2t2 at September 1, 2012 12:09 PM
Comment #351951

j2t2 said:

“Well it seems I am rambling”

Yes, it does. Not only rambling, but also repeating the same old liberal talking points over and over.

“Once again C&J your missing the point entirely. What I have consistently said is conservative movement followers of today are like the people of Germany in the late 20’s and early 30’s.”

I would bet, if we put conservatives and liberals in the same classroom and ask them to explain the Bill of Rights, Constitution, Branches of Government, and how Government really works; I bet the conservatives would know more answers.

A Russian once said, “Conservatives use facts to form their opinions while liberals use their opinions to form their facts.”

Posted by: Fran at September 1, 2012 3:23 PM
Comment #351952

Among the usual Friday document dump by the Obama WH, we have this one:

“The federal government has closed a criminal probe of alleged financial misconduct by Arizona lawman Joe Arpaio, who styles himself as “America’s toughest sheriff,” and no charges will be filed, the U.S. Attorney’s Office said on Friday…

The announcement on Friday marked the end of an investigation that began in November 2010 at the behest of the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors to examine alleged financial improprieties by the county sheriff and his deputies.

A federal criminal inquiry into several of those matters was concluded last summer with the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Arizona declining to initiate criminal charges.”

Sheriff Joe was a talking point of the left a few months back…purpose…to change the topic of discussion from Obama’s failed presidency to racism and the Republican’s hatred of Latinos. Why does the Republican Party have more Latino mayors, governors, senators, and comgresspeople than the Democratic Party? Why did the liberal MSM cut out all the speeches of the up and coming Latino conservatives who spoke at the DNC convention?

Let’s move on to new Obama talking points…..

Posted by: Frank at September 1, 2012 3:42 PM
Comment #351953

The left is in panic mode:

“Early signs emerging from Democrats during the Republican National Convention indicate the White House and influential activists are in a panic, fearing that Gov. Mitt Romney is increasingly likely to emerge victorious Nov. 6.

The Obama campaign has sent out a fundraising email by Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., warning Democratic supporters that Obama is in the process of being “Swift-Boated” by conservative PACs, while filmmaker Michael Moore has predicted in a Huffington Post interview that Romney will win.

In an email letter sent today, Kerry wrote supporters:

Consider this: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth spent about $23 million on smear ads against me in 2004.

This year, the Romney campaign and super PACs have promised to spend more than $1 billion.

What is Kerry’s plea? Donate $5 and, “Don’t let them get away with it.”

Moore is concerned with Obama’s inability to raise money 2008-style.

“Mitt Romney is going to raise more money than Barack Obama,” Moore told the Huffington Post. “That should guarantee his victory. I think people should start to practice the words ‘President Romney.’

“To assume the other side are just a bunch of ignoramuses who are supported by people who believe that Adam and Eve rode on dinosaurs 6,000 years ago is to completely misjudge the opposition,” Moore said.”

http://teapartyorg.ning.com/forum/topics/michael-moore-get-use-to-saying-president-romney?xg_source=activity&id=4301673%3ATopic%3A928818&page=3

Posted by: Billinflorida at September 1, 2012 4:10 PM
Comment #351955

Republicans cannot vote for Romney now. He used a teleprompter for his speech.
Posted by: Tom at August 31, 2012

obama even uses a teleprompter to call his dog.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 1, 2012 4:33 PM
Comment #351956

When I first referred to Stephen as “Doughboy” it was in response to his call for government to send people money.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 1, 2012 4:36 PM
Comment #351958

Stephen

I did bring up Hitler. In fact, I am trying over and over to explain history to those who don’t seem to have read any. I will happily not bring up this history again, but you need to tell your liberal friends to stop exhibiting their ignorance that requires me to set the record straight.

“And these socialists happened to hate the Marxists, who also called themselves socialists.” YES. Just like heretics of the same religion hate each other and sometimes killed each other.

During the great religious war, protestants and Catholics killed each other and sometimes allied with Muslims to do it despite the fact that they shared most things in common. The same goes for the factions (communist, fascists, Nazis) of revolutionary socialism.

Phx8

“Voting is a right. Period.” I agree. Find me a legitimate voter who has been denied the vote and work to make sure he/she can vote. I do not believe you can actually find a case of someone who was legally eligible to vote, really wanted to vote and was prevented from doing so. If you know of such a person, it is your civic duty to help him/her get that ID or whatever he/she needs.

J2t2

Don’t play stupid. If you want to say that conservatives are misled, you can choose many examples from American history where it might have made more sense. If you are saying that Germans were misled in 1920s and conservatives are misled today, it is not much of a point. Especially if Germans were misled by the promise of MORE and bigger government while conservatives would be misled by the opposite.

It is also more than a bit insulting. We both know that the education and experience of many conservatives on this site is greater than yours. Yet you imply that we are misled whereas you see the truth, even with your weak grasp of history. When I try to explain it, it goes clean over your head. I cannot make it simple enough for you to abandon your junior HS prejudices.

So if you want to make a general statement that everybody who is misled is like Germans who were misled, you have made a useless comparison. If you are trying to make some sort of equivalence between Germans in the interwar years and conservatives today beyond that, you are just wrong. So your choices are being irrelevant or wrong. Actually, I suspect it is a combination.

Posted by: C&J at September 1, 2012 5:04 PM
Comment #351960

So your choices are being irrelevant or wrong. Actually, I suspect it is a combination.
Posted by: C&J at September 1, 2012 5:04

You have a very sharp quill and know how and when to use it.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 1, 2012 5:24 PM
Comment #351961

This is interesting; since there were liberals calling for God to destroy and kill all Republicans at Tampa with Hurricane Isaac. We find a Biblical example of God bringing down an idol image of Obama in Charlotte:

“Rains wash away Mount Obama in Charlotte, N.C.”

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2012/sep/1/rains-wash-away-mount-obama/

By the way, there is another hurricane developing and is predicted to go up the east coast…

Posted by: Billinflorida at September 1, 2012 5:49 PM
Comment #351962

Bill, thanks for that link. I thought it was very funny. I wonder how many of the liberals calling for God to destroy Reps in Tampa were atheists?

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 1, 2012 6:10 PM
Comment #351963

Hahahahaha, true.

Posted by: BIF at September 1, 2012 6:40 PM
Comment #351965

Billinflorida-
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, the question is how well shared is it.

Eastwood disrespected the President of the United States, and the President responded by tweeting a photo of an executive chair at a White House table.

More than that, my predictions pretty much have come true: the media seized on the debacle, it was pretty much criticized as odd and out of place, and it utterly eclipsed Romney’s speech.

Let’s separate the two allegations you bring up in your next comment. Kerry’s basically using your party’s attempts to assault him with swiftboat type groups as a way to raise money.

As for Moore? I trust Nate Silver more than Michael Moore on election day predictions.

But he is right that just because your people believe things that many of us think are stupid, that doesn’t mean you’re stupid. We should take you seriously. I’ve never advocated going any less than full force against the GOP.

As for “Mount Obama” if we’re talking odd religious choices, the Washington Times is owned by the Moonies, a Christian-like cult that believes that Sun Myung Moon is the Messiah.

As for either hurricane currently in the Atlantic, Leslie is the only one anywhere close, and on Thursday it will be about a thousand miles away from North Carolina. We didn’t hold our convention in Bermuda, so that won’t likely be a problem. As for wishing Hurricanes on anybody, none of those I’ve been through, or seen the effects of have given me any desire to wish it on somebody, particularly Ike. If God truly wants to punish the Republicans, he can choose to convince them to get a surprise celebrity guest, and then convince that celebrity guest to have a conversation with an empty chair. ;-)

Royal Flush-
Or he can convince them that everybody laughs at their jokes.

C&J-
You seem to bring him up in this clumsy way meant to associate the left with him. It’s about as effective as hiding behind a screen door. There is no common thread. Hitler and company hated Marxism. The term socialism can and has been used with parties that have nothing to do with Marx. According to this article, G.K. Chesterton supported one particular brand, and he wasn’t any marxist.

This is not to say that Marx isn’t an influence on any group that calls itself socialist, it’s just to remind you that there’s a more general category of socialism, not all of which is encompassed by a Godless left-wing sensibility.

To term it in terms of religious schism is further dishonesty, a further attempt to salvage a bad argument in spite of severe problems with the underlying facts. You think you’re being a clever political operator, but what you’re really being is GlennBeckian in your word games, and most on the blue column realize it.

Truth of the matter is that the folks on the Blue Column, by and large, had no love for Communism, much less Soviet communism. So this line of questioning seems to be a blatant attempt to redbait, despite its pretensions to subtlety.

As far as I would go, the point of Nazism’s many tenets is largely as a way of undoing the shame and the cost of the defeat in WWI, the failure of the monarchy which was the archconservatives’s cultural touchstone. It was socialist in the sense that it had government priming the pump, but the government was virulently anti-marxist, and the ideas for the party don’t much resembled that of that brand of socialism.

Deliberately misunderstanding this, especially when people are throwing around rhetoric about Democrats being socialist, is a scare tactic that might ironically lead some Republicans and Tea Partiers to similar choices as the Nazis made. There are only so many times you can tell people that a certain party or person is a threat to the nation’s existence, to their own personal safety, to the future of their children, before one or more people take the cue and handle things the way people tend to handle such threats.

We’re nowhere near that breaking point, but really, it pays not to store up mortal fear and paranoid anger people can’t let go of.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 1, 2012 10:22 PM
Comment #351967

Stephen

Were Nazis in favor of limited government?
Were Nazis in favor of free enterprise w/o government controls?
Did Nazis espouse a revolutionary change in their society?
Did Nazis identify groups above individuals?

I bring up Hitler ONLY when one of you does first and then I explain to you very patiently evidently using terms and concepts that you cannot understand.

Frankly neither you nor J2t2 really is up to the intellectual level on this. Did you learn your history from comic books? You think in one dimension.

Not only can you not understand history, but you don’t even pay attention to what you are criticizing. I have ALWAYS made a strong distinctions between American liberals and Soviet communists. I did it in this thread. Please pay attention. If you are going to attack what I say, try to get it right.

Here is what I wrote years ago. Read the whole thing i fyou want to get a little better educated but here is the start and the end http://www.watchblog.com/republicans/archives/002969.html

I am surprised that in 2005 - in this blog - people still accuse liberals of being communists. The liberal ideal is the antithesis of communism …American liberals and conservatives fought both fascism and communism and together we beat them. We can think of newer and better names to call each other.

See I understand what you don’t because I have a more open mind and a much better education. You have NEVER been as generous or open minded with conservatives and yet you constantly attack us for being Intransigent.

You guys just cannot handle nuance. It is all black and white with you. Did you stop learning new things in 7th grade? Did you guys even graduate from college?

Sorry to be mean to you. I don’t like it when you are called a dumb ass and I have defended you. Maybe I won’t in future.

Let me give you three things to remember

Modern American liberals and Conservatives have little in common with communists and Nazis.

Communists and Nazis shared many practices and both were totalitarians who believed the collective state should utterly dominate the individual. Neither wanted to limit the size of their control nor encourage pluralism.

The use of adjectives liberal/conservative change over time and in different places. Movements are not individuals. They change.

Is this okay with you? Anything here too hard for you to understand. I think I have written at the 7th grade level with no hard words.

Posted by: C&J at September 1, 2012 11:10 PM
Comment #351968

Stephen, Obama has disrespected the office of the President himself, without any help from Eastwood. When he bows and kisses the arse of a Muslim royal, or apologizes to a foreign government, he has disrespected the office.

C&J, your talking to a “d*****s”; do you really think he cares about the meaning of words? The term Nazi is used in reference to conservatives because it’s a good talking point. If Stephen says it, it means he first heard it from Reid, Pelosi, Maddow, O’Donnell, or Obama. It’s impossible to have an understanding of the meaning of words when they are used in liberal talking points. The talking point is what’s important, not the meaning of the words. Hence, you can explain to Stephen until you are blue in the face, but he will not hear, understand, or stop using the same terms. The term Nazi is meant to disparage conservatives. You make the mistake of thinking Stephen is more intelligent than say Adrienne, but they are on the same level.

Posted by: BIF at September 1, 2012 11:33 PM
Comment #351969

BIF

I would have disagreed a while ago, but lately I am coming to agree with you.

Posted by: C&J at September 1, 2012 11:37 PM
Comment #351971

C&J, it’s not just SD; there is a complete mental breakdown of the liberal Democrats. They are coming to the realization that personal attacks on one’s character and lofty speeches by Obama is not going to be enough to get him re-elected. At some point, he is going to have to defend his policies and answer for his failures. The left jumps from one personal attack to another, but the American people are wising up to the ways of liberalism. Throwing grandma off the cliff, and scaring seniors about SS and medicare won’t work anymore. I have been waiting for this conservative awakening for a long time. I’m sick of 20% of the population telling the other 80% how to live their lives. If Romney/Ryan win, we are going to see some real changes in America, they know it, and they are terrified.

Posted by: BIF at September 1, 2012 11:51 PM
Comment #351973
Don’t play stupid. If you want to say that conservatives are misled, you can choose many examples from American history where it might have made more sense…..

C&J take a deep breath and slow down, Go back a bit and read what I have written in previous threads on the issue. I have been consistent in what my point is and was. I chose the people of Germany because the results of that duping are well known and not disputed by all but a few uber conservatives. Remember I still have freedom of choice and I chose the people of Germany as my way of explaining to the conservatives of today how their blind allegiance to ideology is endangering the country we all love. You could have chose any of these other examples to refute any of my arguments but you chose to try to convince us Hitler and the Nazis were liberals instead.

It is also more than a bit insulting. We both know that the education and experience of many conservatives on this site is greater than yours. Yet you imply that we are misled whereas you see the truth, even with your weak grasp of history. When I try to explain it, it goes clean over your head. I cannot make it simple enough for you to abandon your junior HS prejudices.

So you and the other conservatives here on WB have advanced degrees therefore you cannot be duped by movement leaders and how silly of j2t2 the uneducated to point it out? What I am seeing here C&J is the argument that because the conservatives on this site are smarter and have more experience than I then all conservatives by default are as well educated and have more experience than do I. We know though that isn’t the case don’t we. It is in fact laughable this silly argument you present- “ I am more educated than you so I must be right”. Even as you are proven historically wrong by unbiased sources. Where I came from C&J you didn’t need history to know when you were being played . You continue to be unable to discern the point of my comments are you sure you read them? If you do you need to consider the flaws in your own education before condemning mine.

How dare I opine that conservatives are being duped by their leaders. How dare I suggest that when we look at conservative leaders actions instead of their rhetoric we see a bait and switch. I couldn’t possible be right because I lack the education or experience of the conservatives on this site to see what is plainly in front of me! HA , I say. Wave a flag, Tebow a bit and the next thing you know you guys are buying into the tax reductions for the rich will create jobs despite 10 years or more of this not being the case.

You know C&J I have said before, I was hoping that someone would prove me wrong, that I was exaggerating and things weren’t as bad as they seemed with the conservative movement. Instead the discussion has always went into who was or wasn’t conservative or liberal. I would say this isn’t my point. You have never said anything that would led one to believe the comparison isn’t valid. Instead you choose the low road. Your advanced education led you down the path of trying to convince me the Nazi’s were a liberal group. When I rebutted with links to the contrary you resorted to berating me, despite all the references I provided in response to your arguments, as being a JR high school whatever. You claim your input goes over my head yet when I respond with references that seem to correlate directly to your comments you disregard them. Perhaps you just don’t give my intellectual capabilities enough credit.


So if you want to make a general statement that everybody who is misled is like Germans who were misled, you have made a useless comparison. If you are trying to make some sort of equivalence between Germans in the interwar years and conservatives today beyond that, you are just wrong. So your choices are being irrelevant or wrong. Actually, I suspect it is a combination.

C&J it is the point I have been making for sometime now. I don’t think it is useless if it calls attention to the possibility that movement leaders aren’t doing what they tell the movement followers. As an example conservatives controlled both houses and the administration yet carded medicare “reform” back in ‘03. They borrowed to go to war, the first time in our history they did this while cutting taxes. If the conservatives on this site are so smart why is it they cannot grasp this bait and switch that left us burdened us with debt.


I bring up Hitler ONLY when one of you does first and then I explain to you very patiently evidently using terms and concepts that you cannot understand.

What a bunch of crap you run C&J. You have brought Hitler up when ever I have compared the people of Germany and the conservatives of today. If not you then another of the conservatives here on WB had the honors. I don’t recall any of those considered to be liberal or as y’all say socialist liberals even responding to my comments. Then you attempt to explain some revisionist history where Hitler and the Nazi’s are not conservatives, which wasn’t even the point of the comment. Then you have the audacity to tell us we don’t have the intellectual cajones to understand such concepts and terms! The real issue is your inability to understand and respond to the point at hand. Your lack of ability to grasp the concept we just don’t buy into the revisionism your trying to peddle.

Frankly neither you nor J2t2 really is up to the intellectual level on this. Did you learn your history from comic books? You think in one dimension.

Lets face facts C&J, The Nazi’s grouped up with conservatives groups. They were in fact conservative no amount of intellectual spin will change this. Are you seriously suggesting that all the sources over all this time I have provided are wrong and you are right because you are some advanced degreed scholar that has a vested interest in defending conservatives ideology. You are tainted C&J you are biased. You have demonstrated such a degree of bias this past year or more as your post have degenerated into Limbaugh type propaganda. You cannot be considered a reliable source due to such bias. Get over yourself, my friend, for your own good.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 2, 2012 12:52 AM
Comment #351975

J2t2

You can opine that conservatives are being duped by their leaders. You cannot legitimately employ analogies using history you obviously do not understand and probably never even studied beyond the completely superficial level.

Re education and experience - all I know is what you have written. What you write about Nazis displays a serious ignorance and lack of intellectual curiosity. You probably know lots of remarkable things. You just are just clearly beyond your competence when you get into this particular subject.

Re the Nazis being a liberal group - please, please, please, read what I write about this before you make another stupid statement. I keep on telling you that liberals and conservatives in the modern U.S. are different in most ways from Nazis and communists. American liberals and conservatives have much more in common with each other than either does with Nazis or communists.

My main point is that Nazis and communists are similar in their practical behaviors and their operative principles despite their ostensible stated differences.

“What a bunch of crap you run C&J. You have brought Hitler up when ever I have compared the people of Germany and the conservatives of today. “

Come on. If you bring up the German people being duped in the 1920s and 1930s, you imply Hitler. I don’t believe that even you do not know that Hitler came to power in Germany after that “duping”.

If you are trying to make a simple analogy with the German people of the 1920s, it makes no particular sense unless you imply Hitler. And why would you choose an analogy like that, since you do not understand it?

Re conservatives - it is a WORD. It means different things in different places and situations. An American conservative generally believes in limited government, free markets, religion independent of state control and original interpretation of laws such laid out in the constitution. Nazis were totalitarian (i.e. very big government), controlled markets, subordinated religion to the state and were revolutionary in seeking to remake the state w/o being bound by precedent. What similarities do you really see?

Re bias - I am indeed biased in the direction of thinking for myself and I give you the reasons. You tell me that “Nazis are grouped with conservatives” because you learned that in junior HS and never thought about it again.

Re your sources - as I tell others - think don’t link. You are giving me definitions of words. I am explaining to you that in the real world similar words sometimes describe different realities. I ask you to look at what Nazis actually did and their goals. This may require you to study what they did and their goals rather than appeal to authority of Wikipedia on definitions of words.

Posted by: C&J at September 2, 2012 7:39 AM
Comment #351976

Nazi analogies should not ever be used in American political discourse, period, end of story. This analogy is not helpful or relevant to anything happening in the American political system. Comparing any politician in this country to the genocidal racists that killed 6 million jews and started a war that devastated the world is an outrage. Both sides have done it and both should stop. It’s nothing but empty hyperbole. Stop it. I think the conservative, Tea Party movement is way on the fringe and believe stuff that is patently false but they are not in any way, shape, or form Nazis or anything close. Obama, by any objective assessment is neither a Nazi, nor a communist, nor a socialist. Anyone who accuses him of that is also engaging in empty hyperbole. It just makes you look stupid.

While in times of economic strife those that choose not to use their brains start lashing out at anyone they define as “the other” whether is be a racial or religious minority, people of the opposite gender, or those with a different sexual preference. It’s happening in Europe now and it is happening here in the US. It’s ugly, it doesn’t solve problems, and leaves people susceptible to demagogues. While that did happen in Nazi Germany, the neither the US nor Europe are facing the humiliation of losing a war and being forced to pay crushing reparations on top of a global depression. We are no where near that situation, though it is bad, and many people are engaging in bigoted finger pointing.

If you want to be taken seriously you will stop with the ignorant Nazi analogies.

Posted by: tcsned at September 2, 2012 8:30 AM
Comment #351977

tcsned

“If you want to be taken seriously you will stop with the ignorant Nazi analogies.”


Thanks. Hear that J2t2?

You are right. That is why I get so annoyed at guys like Stephen and J2t2. It is frustrating that they just cannot understand.

Posted by: C&J at September 2, 2012 8:34 AM
Comment #351978

Wikipedia is not a reliable source for any study. Word’s change; there was a time when “gay” meant happy.

“You know C&J I have said before, I was hoping that someone would prove me wrong, that I was exaggerating and things weren’t as bad as they seemed with the conservative movement. Instead the discussion has always went into who was or wasn’t conservative or liberal. I would say this isn’t my point. You have never said anything that would led one to believe the comparison isn’t valid. Instead you choose the low road. Your advanced education led you down the path of trying to convince me the Nazi’s were a liberal group. When I rebutted with links to the contrary you resorted to berating me”

It’s hard to prove an opinion wrong. Opinions are not necessarily based on facts. After re-reading, I never saw that C&J ever called Nazi’s a liberal group. Although I personally think Nazi’s held to the modern day ideology of big government, controlled markets, government owned business, socialized medicine, gun control, and religious intolerance.

Posted by: Frank at September 2, 2012 8:35 AM
Comment #351979

Calling opponents names like “Nazi” is an act of desperation. Meaning the discussion of ideas and policies has evaporated. It’s also used when the argument is lost and fear sets in.

Posted by: BIF at September 2, 2012 8:41 AM
Comment #351981

BIF, Frank & tcsned

The problem is that one cannot let the accusation or implications of Nazi sit.

I like to think that people are intelligent enough not to be taken in by such things, but my experience on this blog and elsewhere tells me that my optimism in this respect is unjustified.

A large plurality if not a majority do not have sufficient grasp of history to be able to discern the nuance and subtlety. I also observe that most popular culture takes great liberty with the truth.

You for example, that when something is supposed to be “based” on history, that beyond some of the names and places it will usually be wrong in most important details. If something says it is “inspired” by events, it won’t even get the names and places right.

I am afraid that a generation of Americans has learned much of their history from Oliver Stone.

Look at the decline of History Channel, Discovery or A&E. History Channel is now mostly about ghosts and ancient aliens. Discovery has a lot on obesity, cute animals or ghosts. A&E has devolved into cooking contests and modelling. Nobody even tries to bring anything higher to the general public.

I am in general a great supporter of the free market, but I think we do face a failure when we value the tastes of the stupid as highly as the more thoughtful. There will always be more stupid than thoughtful people.

Posted by: C&J at September 2, 2012 10:14 AM
Comment #351983

C&J wrote:

I am happy if we protect the right to vote. That means ensuring that there is no fraud, since each vote cast illegally is a vote stolen from a legitimate voter.

You learn a lot about how people think by what they say. It is interesting to me that C&J (and I assume most Republicans) assume that these mythical fraudulent voters are voting OPPOSITE to the “legitimate” presumptively, conservative voter.

End Democracy Now??? Is that the new conservative mantra?

Posted by: LibRick at September 2, 2012 11:21 AM
Comment #351986
The problem is that one cannot let the accusation or implications of Nazi sit.

Unless, of course, it is your side making the accusations. Do you not recall the Republican/Tea Party posters from the last election?

I am in general a great supporter of the free market, but I think we do face a failure when we value the tastes of the stupid as highly as the more thoughtful. There will always be more stupid than thoughtful people.

The advocates of the free market now determine that if the people don’t choose the correct course, we must decide how to use the input of the people with correct ‘values’.

Perhaps you need a Minister of Moral Authority and Proper Values in the next Republican administration. Let’s find more ways to silence the voice of the stupid people. Stupid, of course, being those who disagree with your party.

Posted by: LibRick at September 2, 2012 11:30 AM
Comment #351988

LibRick

There have been convictions for voter fraud. This is not a rumour. “The electoral system cannot inspire public confidence if no safeguards exist to deter or detect fraud or to confirm the identity of voters.” so said the bipartisan Commission on Federal Election Reform, headed by former president Jimmy Carter and former secretary of State James Baker.

Voter fraud is known from history, sometimes in massive proportions. Good and reasonable rules keep the elections honest.

Asking a person to prove identity using IDs w/o which nobody can live a normal life is not too much to ask. We go even farther and provide free IDs to anyone who doesn’t drive, drink, shop or go to the library. Beyond that, anybody who still doesn’t have such ID can vote provisionally.

I do not believe it is possible that anyone who wants to vote and is qualified to vote will be prevented from voting by these reasonable precautions.

We have actual examples of voter fraud in the form of convictions; I could find no recent examples of convictions legitimate voters being denied the chance to vote at the polls. Lots of talk. but no evidence that stands up to scrutiny.

Democrats use this issue very cynically. It is a race-baiting, IMO, when Holder compares simple rules to poll taxes and Jim Crow. He knows he is lying and he means it to stir up fear and resentment among minority voters. You all should be ashamed of such racism. Especially when this same guy will not take seriously Black Panthers standing threateningly outside polls.

Posted by: C&J at September 2, 2012 11:46 AM
Comment #351989

Librick

Re Nazis etc - I have never, EVER done that. I don’t deserve your accusation nor the guilt by association. You should be ashamed of yourself and I am ashamed to have to explain it to you again.

I castigated my side for making such accusations in the past. I even once wrote a whole post about it, which I linked above. I expect as much honor from your side. Actually, I suppose expect is the wrong word. I wish there was such.

So far, on you side I have seen such honor only from Adam and tscned. I am sorry if I am leaving anybody out. Please write in if you have been on the right side. The rest of you seem to be in lockstep in your hatred.

Re the state of our society - I don’t say that people should not have the right to believe in and watch shows about ghosts, aliens, witchcraft or astrology, but I do not believe that we should elevate such things anywhere beyond the mindless entertainment element. Opinions based on these things are not as good as those based on real evidence. That you disagree may explain something about your politics.

Posted by: C&J at September 2, 2012 11:57 AM
Comment #351994

C&J

First, don’t assume that I hate anyone. It is not a matter of hate. I disagree with policy. But I do vehemently oppose TACTICS which are based upon the accusations not being patriotic, wanting something for nothing, wanting to take something from the ‘deserving’. If the tactics used by one side or the other include intimidation, name calling, fear mongering, making some group the “other” just as Jews, Communists, etc. have in the past, then yes, I abhor that. But I don’t HATE. I do fear ignorance. I fear self-righteousness. I fear the positing of an “us” vs. a “them”.

If I have lately engaged in name calling, asserting attitudes and beliefs on the opposition with which they might disagree, let me assure you it is a TACTIC that I have decided to use in order to demonstrate to those with whom I might have policy differences how it feels to be constantly under attack with anything except logic, reason, and fact. I think Adrienne became exasperated and decided much the same although on a ‘grander’ scale. None of this is working of course.

I use the name LibRick because I am PROUD to be liberal and known as such. As much effort as the conservative side has made in trying to align the word with evil, selfish, taker as opposed to contributed… I am not willing to give the word up to THEIR DEFINITION, not mine.

The fact is, that in some areas, you are quite reasonable. Although, I don’t understand your position in others, such as calling out Obama for ‘going small’ and letting stand the many fabrications and insinuation that Romney makes… like forgiving him for laying out the “no one asks to see my birth certificate” statement. You know in your heart that was a dig at Obama pandering to those racist birthers. You likely will not admit this. I understand. This is politics.

I think if we were to sit down across from each other, you would find that we are not far apart on most issues. I think that together, you and I would likely find compromise on almost every issue and could move our country forward. For example, I do not think sending people money in the mail is in their best interest. Neither the unemployed nor the wealthy. But we do it and in my opinion, we probably have to do it for the poor until we can find ways to make them more employable or create an economy where the incentives are there. In the case of abortion, I do not like abortion and would wish that no one get or perform them, yet I understand that it may not be my decision to make. Perhaps a person has a right to decide what is happening in their own bodies. I think educational choice is preferable, yet, I worry that it may offer the opportunity to forget about the poorest of the poor and those children who are born into families where the parents are not willing/capable of doing what they ought for their children. I believe in personal accountability, yet I am not willing to step over the sick, starving, and dying in the streets, so I feel something must be done. The list goes on. And I bet that you feel much the same. You would not step over the homeless children, the terminally ill, the dying, the abandoned children. We just have differences on what to do to solve the problem.

But we are not in charge. We elect leaders and representatives. This political system has come to create a strange culture of extremes. In the case of this particular election year, you write a column supporting those who I feel have made a very deliberate choice to UNDERMINE the president and have taken what I consider a TREASONOUS stance that hurts our country. There is the crux of the matter and I feel that a line has been drawn in the sand so that we are near civil war. So don’t take the stand that you are right and I am wrong. What you have seen in my posts lately have been what I feel are the politically opposite equivalents of what I see thrown toward reasonable liberals and progressives on a daily basis. How you feel about me right now…. know that most progressives have been feeling about your side for many years now.

And… no matter how you paint it, conservatives were handed over a surplus and a decent economy by a progressive Democrat who was hounded and abused by the opposition for years. Your side turned it into a huge debt and ended their term with the worst recession since the Great Depression. (don’t start with the excuses now! You know how much you hate our current president to use those!) So… when your side has shown that it can run an economy and conduct good foreign policy, then you might convince us to join your side. Until then, we need to find ways to work together… and that is not happening.

I’ll return to a more reasoned stance now and will quit the name calling. My point wasn’t made I suppose, but I had fun doing it.

Posted by: LibRick at September 2, 2012 1:26 PM
Comment #351998

LibRick

I give you guys logic and facts. You mention Adrienne. I am sure she is frustrated, but she has always been vulgar and unwilling to think things through. This is nothing new. She often gets mad at me because I actually read the links she provides and analyze the sources. I push her because it is fun and because she has it coming. But I never call her names, besides liberal.

Re liberal - the word went bad in the 1960s and 1970s when it became associated with the failures of big government failed attempts to address poverty. It has also become tainted with the idea of victim reverence. And then there is the PC stuff. Some of this is still true of liberals.

There is a reality here that may not look good for either of us, depending on how you look at things. I am interested in solutions that improve our country. I care about the big picture and am really not concerned with how policies affect particular groups. How will that affect “the poor”, whites, blacks etc is a question I do not ask. This can be a weakness. I perceive that liberals start from the other direction. They worry about the groups first. “My people” would call your approach soft headed and “your people” would call mine hard hearted.

Re the Obama - we really disagree about Obama. I see him as incompetent and misguided. He is like many of the people I know form academia. They make very good and articulate statements but should not be left in charge of anything. I think his four years in office have shown this to be true. I think he has gone small because he cannot go big. He sold himself on hope and change. He cannot do that again. Yet he doesn’t want to point to his record. He only positive slogan is that “it could have been worse.”

“And… no matter how you paint it, conservatives were handed over a surplus and a decent economy by a progressive Democrat who was hounded and abused by the opposition for years.” Republican were as important to this happy state of affairs as Clinton.

Clinton was not very progressive and you have never heard me make serious criticism of him. He believed in welfare reform, free trade, markets and famously said that the era of big government was over. IMO, Bush made the mistake of growing government.

I have advocated going back to the size government was in 2000 (adjusted for GDP) and then tax at whatever level we need to meet that. Liberals don’t want this. You all like to talk of the Clinton prosperity but forget that he achieved (to the extent that any president can) this by limiting government.

We had record tax revenues in 2006. Had government stayed the same size (adjusted for GDP) as it had been in 1999, we would have run a surplus. This show where the problem is located.


Posted by: C&J at September 2, 2012 3:21 PM
Comment #352008

BIF:

You make the mistake of thinking Stephen is more intelligent than say Adrienne, but they are on the same level.

Yes, I think he and I probably are on the same intellectual level. I’ve always had a great deal of respect for Stephen and what he writes in this blog — even though I’m fully aware that I stand quite a bit further to the left. Stephen is of course far more placid in the face of all the rightwing stupidity and lies than I am, however. Yet despite those things, it is more than clear that both he and I are well educated people. Moreover, we’re both the types who are interested in the truth, and so we naturally spend a good deal of our time reading.

If I remember correctly Stephen went to Baylor University. That’s a school that has a truly excellent academic reputation. Personally, I’m a poor girl who had to claw her way up the academic ladder. I got my start at a Community College, then went to Trenton State College (now called the College of New Jersey) before finally finishing up my education with a scholarship at Princeton University.

But please, why don’t you tell everyone where you went to school?

LibRick:

I think Adrienne became exasperated and decided much the same although on a ‘grander’ scale. None of this is working of course.

Yes. Exasperated is exactly what I am. It’s crystal clear that there is a complete lack of unbiased moderation in this blog. I completely gave up attempting to try to be polite, and briefly tried to match the nastiness being so frequently dished out. And no, of course that didn’t work. Not only did I realize how ridiculous that was, but I all along I’ve known we’re dealing with people who have ZERO respect for us as human beings. Therefore, there is no way to actually discuss or debate anything. With what must be a rabidly rightwing moderator in charge, they’re going to be permitted to insult us at will however they wish with absolutely no repercussions. And, that’s really ALL they’re doing at this point.

That being the case, I intend to simply share some things I am reading about with those on the left, and will no longer waste my time trying engage in long discussions with anyone whose entire goal is to dish out rightwing insults. Life is too short, and what’s the point, anyway?

Jack:

I give you guys logic and facts.

Hahaha. No. You don’t. You never have.

You mention Adrienne. I am sure she is frustrated, but she has always been vulgar and unwilling to think things through. This is nothing new. She often gets mad at me because I actually read the links she provides and analyze the sources. I push her because it is fun and because she has it coming. But I never call her names, besides liberal.

LIAR. Bullsh*tter.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 3, 2012 3:02 AM
Comment #352012

Adrienne

Don’t you think it is more than a little ironic that you answer an accusation that you are vulgar and reactive by reacting with a vulgarity, even if you use a * to represent a letter in the vulgarity?

BTW - have I ever called you a pejorative name besides liberal? If so, I apologize.


Re schools - I think open-enrollment community colleges are great. They provide opportunity and can allow people to get second and third chances to remake their education.

I have also been very fond of the land-grant universities. I think the Morril acts of 1862 and 1890 are two of the most important pieces of legislation that most people have never heard of. More of the prosperity of the last century is based on this than we know.

IMO - this is a big point where your progressiveness diverges from mine. We probably agree on the importance of land-grant universities and open-enrollment community colleges and probably on the crucial role that university extensions have played in the development of useful arts and sciences in our society.

For me, however, opening opportunity means just that. I would make the opportunities open to all, but would have no interest at all in which individuals or groups take advantage of the opportunities. I want them to contribute to society after being given the opportunity, but society “owes” them/us only the opportunity to improve themselves.

We all have the duty to pursue excellence in the important things we do and should take pride or shame, as appropriate, in the outcomes. We can take pride in excellent outcomes, even if nobody else thinks them valuable, although we may not expect to be paid well for them.

Ours should be a society of many chances but not one of equal or even similar outcomes, since people will make different choices.

IMO - progressiveness split in the 1960s, pushing the opportunity people like me into the conservative fold and the outcomes people like you into the liberal camp.

BTW - I am the product of public schools and I believe they can be excellent. My advanced education is also public, in Wisconsin and Minnesota. I was a fellow at Fletcher School of Law & Diplomacy for a year, but did not pursue a degree. Much of my education, however, is not from that formal process. We have so many opportunities to educate ourselves these days that there is no reason to remain ignorant about anything. My work has also given me opportunity to travel the world and learn three new languages, in addition to my Greek, Latin and German.

The problem with all knowledge is the same as is true for all things on this earth t decays. There are things I used to know but cannot recall today. For example, I can no longer read Greek or speak German - at all. They are just gone and I can no longer do most higher math functions and have to read the dumbed-down versions of books on physics etc. Soon I may turn into a liberal :). Sic transit gloria mundi.

Posted by: C&J at September 3, 2012 8:53 AM
Comment #352015
Come on. If you bring up the German people being duped in the 1920s and 1930s, you imply Hitler. I don’t believe that even you do not know that Hitler came to power in Germany after that “duping”
Thanks. Hear that J2t2?

I do imply Hitler and I do imply Nazi’s C&J. I imply Hitler and the Nazis used these people just like I believe the movement leadership uses people today. What I don’t imply is conservatives of today are Nazis. I do not compare conservatives of today with Hitler or Nazis. I don’t compare the leadership of the conservative movement with Hitler or the Nazis. I don’t claim the conservatives would head us towards the same atrocities the Nazis are responsible for. I compare the conservatives of today with the people of Germany as the Nazis were coming to power. I think I have been consistent with this if you go back and read some of the previous comments on previous threads.

Of course the point I was making was missed it seems and the conversations turned to “which side of the aisle” type discussions, which of course cannot just sit. Of course it went downhill from there. However I do think I should accept responsibility for starting these forays which ended up devolving into Goodwins law territory even though it wasn’t my intentions. Hopefully now that our collective attention has been drawn to the problem we can discuss the issue I raise without going into Goodwins law territory.

The problem is that one cannot let the accusation or implications of Nazi sit.

Of course not C&J even when the accusations are not those of the Goodwins Law variety. The problem is you guys then seem to want to get into Goodwins law type discussion instead of dealing with the issue at hand. Emotions and emotional responses by all perhaps.


We had record tax revenues in 2006. Had government stayed the same size (adjusted for GDP) as it had been in 1999, we would have run a surplus. This show where the problem is located.

Yes the conservatives led by GWB did grow government during the time frame you mention. The problem with going back C&J is the 900,000 or so government jobs that would be lost to get back to that level. The GWB years hide the loss of private sector jobs with the growth of public sector jobs. When you couple the millions of private sector jobs lost at the end of the GWB administration with the loss of state and local government jobs after the stimulus money was spent one would think you guys would realize job growth is what is needed, except private sector job growth hasn’t kept up. Why are you guys so intent on heading us into depression just so you can adhere to your ideology?

Posted by: j2t2 at September 3, 2012 10:38 AM
Comment #352016

Adrienne, there is an old saying; “you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear”. We only have your word on your education, but if you do have what you say, it didn’t take. By the way, I have a Masters from MIT.

So you are telling us of your great education and yet you are unable to understand logic and are unable to communicate without using vulgarity. This doesn’t say much for your communication skills. I don’t believe I have ever seen a woman on WB reprimanded by the editor for vulgar language before. C&J is correct, you never read your own links, and you only provide the talking points. You also fail to have the ability to understand or interpret facts. You never give logic or facts. Your comments are always based on an emotional response.

Posted by: BIF at September 3, 2012 10:42 AM
Comment #352021

Perhaps we should try and avoid the inevitable as predicted by Godwin’s law, but you can certainly apply Gopnik’s Amendment to many of the tactics of the conservative movement.

It has for the past few years been a tactic of the right to claim (not imply!) that their opponents are: a) terrorists or terrorist sympathizers, b) socialists, by which they mean anti-capitalism/free market/freedom, as they know their constituents are not fluent in the terms or meanings of the word, c) liberal, as in unrealistic, misinformed, misguided, opposed to the American ‘free enterprise’ system, restrictive, etc., d) unpatriotic, e) foreign or for the rights of foreigners over “real” Americans, and so forth and on and on.

Labeling the opposition as ‘the other’… those who are ‘not like us’… gives their constituency the right to hate, and use means that would be considered hateful except that since we are the “other” the rules don’t apply. This attitude led to things like not counting the casualties of the non-whites during American pre-emptive strikes and attacks, the acceptance (and insistence even) of torture of non-Americans, the lack of sympathy for the poor welfare recipients (since they are ‘wink-wink, nod-nod’ lazy, black people), the lax and forgiving attitudes toward executives, boards, and leaders of the huge corporations, especially finance and energy institutions, because they are ‘free marketers’.

You on the right will, of course, accuse us of the same thing. But you will not find me blaming groups for just being wealthy or successful. I will call out those in power who use their vast wealth and social/political leverage to cheat the average citizen of wealth by manipulating laws and markets. Not all corporations do this. But many of the energy companies, huge agricultural companies, and military industries do this… and they are allowed to do it while their supporters begrudge someone taking $400 per month tax free in support instead of working minimum wage and paying for child care, payroll taxes, car/bus fare, etc. Make it economically feasible and you will reduce those socialist institutions you abhor. Or do you think we NEED slave labor to compete in the global market?

Posted by: LibRick at September 3, 2012 1:21 PM
Comment #352022

LibRick, after labeling the right with a plethora of accusations, you then say, “You on the right will, of course, accuse us of the same thing.”

Why would you suspect us of doing a thing like that?

I will just ask you to give your opinion of only one thing, based upon this comment, “I will call out those in power who use their vast wealth and social/political leverage to cheat the average citizen of wealth by manipulating laws and markets”:

Jon Corzine, former Senator of NJ, do you consider him elegible for a Holder pass on corruption?

“Those wondering why the Department of Justice has refused to go after Jon Corzine for the vaporization of $1.6 billion in MF Global client funds need look no further than the documents uncovered by the Government Accountability Institute that reveal that the now-defunct MF Global was a client of Attorney General Eric Holder and Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer’s former law firm, Covington & Burling.

There’s more.

Records also reveal that MF Global’s trustee for the Chapter 11 bankruptcy retained as its general bankruptcy counsel Morrison & Foerester—the very law firm from which Associate Attorney General Tony West came to DOJ.

And more.

As Government Accountability Institute President Peter Schweizer explains in the Washington Times Thursday, the trustee overseeing MF Global’s bankruptcy is former FBI Director Louis Freeh. At Holder’s Senate confirmation hearing Freeh served as a character witness for Holder and revealed that Holder had previously worked for Freeh. “As general counsel,” Freeh said, “I could have engaged any lawyer in America to represent our bank. I chose Eric.”

Until now, the conventional wisdom for why Holder wouldn’t throw the book at Corzine was that Corzine is an Obama campaign bundler. Indeed, as Breitbart News reported, four of the top officials at the Department of Justice—Eric Holder, Thomas Perrelli, Karol Mason, and Tony West—were also big money bundlers for Obama.”


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/07/26/REVEALED-Corzine-s-MF-Global-Was-a-Client-of-Eric%20Holder-s-Law-Firm

Posted by: Frank at September 3, 2012 1:40 PM
Comment #352024

librick said:

“You on the right will, of course, accuse us of the same thing. But you will not find me blaming groups for just being wealthy or successful.”

You make a blanket statement accusing all conservatives of accusations toward the left; and then you say you are not part of the left who makes blanket statements about the right. Do any conservatives have the right to claim “they are not part of the conservatives who make blanket statements about the left”; or is that right only reserved for those on the left?

Posted by: BIF at September 3, 2012 1:52 PM
Comment #352026
While that did happen in Nazi Germany, the neither the US nor Europe are facing the humiliation of losing a war and being forced to pay crushing reparations on top of a global depression. We are no where near that situation, though it is bad, and many people are engaging in bigoted finger pointing.

I agree it is not as bad as the times the German people faced in the late 20’s and early 30’s. However in addition to the bigoted finger pointing we are faced with other problems and the trend seems to be we are moving farther and farther to the right in the political spectrum.

Many on the right believe the economic system is near collapse, an “end of times” scenario for them and believe the answer is to go back to a precious metal based monetary system. While not crushing reparations it can still be considered a catalyst for radical change. The actions of the tea party caucus seem to be trying to head us towards a depression. The downgrade in credit being one. The refusal to compromise on any issue is such a hardline position and a definite change from the conservatism of the 80’s. The intentional starving of the beast plan to run the country into huge debts in an attempt to rid the nation of the ideological impure programs.

But it is more than that tcsend, It is the years of building a propaganda machine that is unequaled. It is the small numbers of billionaires spending huge sums of money to win at any cost. It is ALEC and the coordinated effort at the state level to suppress votes and other laws. It is politics with the fervor of a religious experience. It is many things that seem to keep escalating that leads me to believe the comparison is worthy of discussion. The comparison of the people of Germany during the 20’s and 30’s and the conservatives of today.( Again I am not saying they are Nazis or will do Nazi type atrocities, I am saying they are people that were led down the wrong path)

Whats missing is the charismatic personality. But who is to say what the future will bring.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 3, 2012 2:37 PM
Comment #352028

You mean, like the George Soros billons?

Posted by: BIF at September 3, 2012 2:45 PM
Comment #352029

To BIF and Frank,

1) I will not defend Corzine nor do I think him anymore worthy of a pass by Holder than the executives of the major banks and finance corporations that caused the great recession. I do not think the Obama administration infallible. I hold them to the same standards that I do any other administration, Republican or Democrat. I do not recall hearing your side calling for Karl Rove, GWB, or Dick Cheney’s head for committing treason when outing a CIA operative. In fact, I recall the right’s talking heads thinking that Scooter Libby was wrongly convicted when the big wigs on the right gave him up. So don’t look like I am a defender of what is wrong just because it is committed by someone on the left.

2) I make no ACCUSATIONS. I am REMINDING you of what was IN FACT SAID, by the leaders of your party/political leaning. Michelle Bachmann, Sarah Palin, Dick Cheney, and many talking heads including your heroes Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh, have said out loud and on record that liberals were unpatriotic when they disagreed with hard right position in foreign policy, that Obama ‘pal’d around with terrorists’, that Obama and our leadership is socialist leaning, that Obama is a foreign born, shaped by Ugandan colonialist politics, was called out indecoriously during a State of the Union speech “YOU LIE” regarding an opposition to a nonexistent stance on illegal alien access to healthcare, and Clinton, Gore, and Obama have been called out on numerous occasions on ‘news’ talk shows implying and accused of pandering to illegal aliens when it has been demonstrated otherwise by comparison to Republican administration actions.

The fact that I bring them up is not an accusation. The positing of the Republicans and conservatives is a matter of public record. There is a concerted and coordinated effort to convince white, middle class America that the Democrats are against them and for ‘those other’ people.

You may not like it, but it is real and not a matter of opinion.

Posted by: LibRick at September 3, 2012 2:49 PM
Comment #352030

j2t2

Still with your love of Nazis?

How can anyone persist in making arguments about something they seem to know next to nothing? In fact, I think it could be said negative knowledge of the subject since so many things just wrong.

Your fellow liberals have castigated you. You must understand that your arguments have no effect on any intelligent person with a reasonable understanding of history. Are you doing the liberal thing and going for the credulous and stupid constituencies?

The scary thing is that you seem to believe what you say. It is not so much the ignorance that I find frightening as the complete lack of desire to become less ignorant.

Librick

“Labeling the opposition as ‘the other’… those who are ‘not like us’… ” so you jump to the ultimate label of all. Who is more “the other” than Nazis.

Posted by: C&J at September 3, 2012 3:00 PM
Comment #352031

Librick

“Karl Rove, GWB, or Dick Cheney’s head for committing treason when outing a CIA operative.”

The investigations showed that these guys did not “out” Plame and that she was not at that time under cover anyway. Don’t confuse your own propaganda with the ultimate facts as discovered by actual investigation.

On the other hand, the Obama folks are liberally leaking information that puts our covert operations at risk. There is absolutely no outrage about this from your side, in fact it seems that you all think it bad manners even to mention it.

Posted by: C&J at September 3, 2012 3:05 PM
Comment #352032

C&J,

Again, you cannot fathom the point J2 was making, though it is plain as the nose on your face to the rest of us. J2 was not, nor was I, calling you or the Republican party/conservatives Nazi. But it was the Nazis who used the Jews as ‘the others’ to galvanize support of the people and political power. There is a case for making the comparison with the modern conservative tactics of name calling and making the opposition un-American ‘others’ in order to gain political power. Again, you don’t have to like it. It has and is happening, however, whether you deny it or not.

And, once again, you have convinced yourself that it was OK to out an active CIA operative because you don’t want to believe that leaders of your own party were willing to commit treason. But commit it they did. And whether or not you want to believe that Rove and Cheney were not involved is up to you… that doesn’t change facts… they were.

I do blame the Obama administration for failing to go after Bush, Cheney, and other high ranking officials for the outing of Plame, the policies of torture, and the failure to turn over documents requested on the energy commission meetings. Obviously, your side plays hard ball, damn the consequences to America. Our side does not. Obama foolishly believed that not going after the Bush administration for violations would result in comity. Ha! Your side has declared war… our side hasn’t had the gonads to do so.

Posted by: LibRick at September 3, 2012 3:18 PM
Comment #352034

librick

I fathom what you are saying. I am just saying that you guys have no idea what you are talking about. You are making broad assertions based on your comic book understanding of Nazis of the past and conservatives of the present.

Meanwhile, you accuse conservatives of calling name by calling names. You accuse conservatives of demonizing “the other” and them label them Nazis. All the time you are doing these things, you are telling me that your side doesn’t do these things.

It would be funny if it were not serious. It is like Adrienne reacting to my comment that she was vulgar and reactive by reacting with vulgarity.

The problem with you all is that you have made conservatives “the other” and you justify all sorts of attacks on them as “self defense”. If you really want to look into the Nazi theme, you will find that they justified their atrocities as self-defense.

Re “outing” Plame - it is not what I believe. It is what the investigation concluded. They concluded early on that Richard Armitage “outed” her and that it was not a crime to have done so. Those are the facts. Sorry if they don’t fit your narratives.

I know that you all wanted it to be Rove, but this is not one of your made for TV movies where if you want something hard enough it becomes true.

Posted by: C&J at September 3, 2012 3:33 PM
Comment #352039

I just stumbled on Watchblog the other day. Pretty interesting that all 3 parties are represented here. I do have a question for everyone regardless of party affiliation. Would you be open to testing a consumption tax somewhere in the US? We know that the wealthy in most cases buy luxury homes, boats and cars which would be the bulk of taxes collected. Thoughts?

Posted by: NFLfan at September 3, 2012 5:06 PM
Comment #352046

NFLfan

I have always thought it would be better to base taxes on what you consume rather than what you earn. Our tax system essentially punishes success by taxing it and encourages people to piss away their money by making it more attractive to spend than to save.

Posted by: C&J at September 3, 2012 5:30 PM
Comment #352048

Interesting. It would just seem to me that this type of tax could possibly close the divide a little bit between the two parties. Maybe even a hybrid incorporating consumption tax.

Posted by: NFLfan at September 3, 2012 5:44 PM
Comment #352055

LibRick and j2t2 insinuate that conservatives are like Nazi’s and then try to deny they ever said it. If there was no insinuation, why was the word Nazi ever brought up? In fact why is it the liberals who always bring up the Nazis?

“2) I make no ACCUSATIONS. I am REMINDING you of what was IN FACT SAID, by the leaders of your party/political leaning. Michelle Bachmann, Sarah Palin, Dick Cheney, and many talking heads including your heroes Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh, have said out loud and on record that liberals were unpatriotic when they disagreed with hard right position in foreign policy, that Obama ‘pal’d around with terrorists’, that Obama and our leadership is socialist leaning, that Obama is a foreign born, shaped by Ugandan colonialist politics, was called out indecoriously during a State of the Union speech “YOU LIE” regarding an opposition to a nonexistent stance on illegal alien access to healthcare, and Clinton, Gore, and Obama have been called out on numerous occasions on ‘news’ talk shows implying and accused of pandering to illegal aliens when it has been demonstrated otherwise by comparison to Republican administration actions.

The fact that I bring them up is not an accusation. The positing of the Republicans and conservatives is a matter of public record. There is a concerted and coordinated effort to convince white, middle class America that the Democrats are against them and for ‘those other’ people.

You may not like it, but it is real and not a matter of opinion.”

Posted by: LibRick at September 3, 2012 2:49 PM

The things you bring up were the talking points of the Democrats years ago and you still bring these same things up. Go to the archives and you will find your answers. As C&J said, the Valerie Plame issue was settled years ago.

The very way you mention the names of “Michelle Bachmann, Sarah Palin, Dick Cheney, and many talking heads including your heroes Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh”, shows your hatred toward these people. You accuse us of blanket statements and you make the same. So your outrage is an act.

Posted by: Frank at September 3, 2012 7:09 PM
Comment #352059

C&J-
In biology, there’s a concept called convergent evolution. Put best, Birds, bees, and bats all developed wings their own way. Each set of wings resembles the other to a certain extent, for reasons that should be obvious: wings have to peform a certain function. Eyes have evolved the same way. Fish and dolphins, whales and sharks look similar because swimming through water makes demands on all that prompt similar end results.

Which is, by way of extended metaphor, the way I would talk about extremist politics, because in the end, the “physics” of politics is the common character of humanity.

Put another way, I think that communism and Nazism indulged in the same evils not because they liked the same ideas, or even shared much of any cultural inheritance. No, I would say it’s because power overstepping its bounds is going to do similar things, and human beings, being fairly similar at their base, will abuse absolute or near absolute power in similar ways.

Which is also to say that any system based on the values you love, if it goes too far, can create the same abuses. Hell, your people adopted what are essentially the torture methods of the Nazis and the Soviets for your own with “enhanced interrogation”. Why? Because you felt the situation was dire enough, and we need to break the rules because they seemed to be in the way of doing what we thought was necessary.

So, you handed power to people without imposing a constraint on how they could use that power.

You are vulnerable. Taken far enough, ANY political philosophy, even those that profess to be about liberty and smaller, less obtrusive government can create the same kind of abuses, if not in government, then perhaps in the private sector, as the laws allow them to do things with impunity that are no different in their negative effect than anything the government might do.

I think the beauty of our system is that it’s a system with feedback loops that allows us to curb and moderate these tendencies in government, rather than be forced to allow them to go all the way to their bitter end, requiring revolution to reboot the system.

The common element between the Soviets and the Nazis is that in the name of their beliefs, they were willing to go to great extremes, and everybody else had to be along for the ride. The reason why we’re different isn’t that Americans are any less prone to following the wrong leaders, even to unreasonable ends. No, the reason is, we have a press and a free communication system that tell us how far afield we’re going, where can organize counter-movements to balance things, where goverment can’t arbitrarily use its power to punish its opponents.

The dilemma has always been that without strong leadership, a nation can fall apart, but with leaders that are too powerful, the nation can be pulled into becoming a monstrous thing. The balance is not to do away with power per se, but to set certain fundamental limits on the use of that power, and create systems of feedback that ensure that the worst abusers of that power, the corrupt, the demagogic, the tyrants, are brought down by peaceful processes.

I mean, I hear folks on your side of the aisle talking about second amendment remedies, and I’m saying “didn’t you fellows even take a pit stop and trying to work out things amicably?”

Nuance. I’m getting criticism about nuance from a party that’s running its campaign on a complete misinterpretation of what the opponents said or done.

You talk of open minds, but really, folks here have already decided things to a certain extent. You can’t expect people to simply agree with you by magic.

In all honesty, I don’t tend to call people Nazis, or anythign else like that, because it’s not that helpful in communicating points anybody has to take seriously I’d say the problem is, Republicans are not as self-aware of the extremes their politics is leading to, because they rationalized a lot of out-there positions in order to justify what the Bush Administration was doing. I doubt it was the plan of many to support interrogation methods similar to what the Nazis or Soviets employed. But good intentions are often cited as the road to hell for a reason.

Many Republicans probably believe, thanks to dishonest leaders, that voter fraud is a real big problem, needing drastic measures to confront it. But looking at things from a distance, these laws seem calculated by their disingenuous leaders to thin the voting rolls of people who otherwise could vote, and might vote Democrat.

You mentioned the sixties and fifties, in terms of nostalgia. How many people remember how high income taxes were at that point, or even during Reagan’s first term? How many people remember the kind of policies that Reagan actually promoted, as opposed to what the mythology tells them. Does their mythology tell them that the fiscal damage from his tax cuts was so immediate, so profound, that he felt compelled to push a tax increase, and even then fell short?

No, they don’t remember that, because like most figures of myth and legend, the rough edges of imperfect reality and experience have been worn away by time.

Unfortunately, they have taken the legend for real, and overextended themselves in many ways, trying to make it real again. I remember relations between the parties being much more more genial. Things were only just beginning to break down.

I have both a liberal and a conservative side, though conservative in my case would mean that I’m not a fan of things getting changed faster than we can really get a handle on them. At the same time, though, I’m also not a fan of politics operating on a purely symbolic level, because symbolic actions rarely have the decency to confine themselves to purely symbolic consequences.

One of the big themes of my writing about the war, if you look at it, was my preference for concrete action, for things to get done. I was neither asking for a precipitous withdrawal or to stay there, using the same strategy until it worked. I think we were still fighting Iraq and Afghanistan when Obama got into office because Bush’s team prioritized saving face and promoting their agenda over adapting to and responding to the situation in real terms.

I believe that much of the policy problems in governments that have gotten too wrapped up in their politics, comes from an unwillingness to start from a practical state of mind. Political outcomes become valued over actual results, and people become more interested in trying to defeat political opponents of their policy, and prevent the development of dissent, than they are in actually solving the real problem that faces them.

They assume they already have the right idea in mind, but let me tell you what I believe about people and their problems: we almost never have the full picture, or know everything we need to know to solve problems. We’re not dealing with a world where every relevant detail is known at first, and what we consider to be the right path is often a pale, limited apprehension of reality.

We aren’t gods, we need to actually work at doing things right, at being right, whether you’re talking right in the debate sense, or right in the sense of actual judgment.

I put the emphasis I do on evidence because evidence is one of the key things we can use to put the brakes on our misapprehensions, to dispell our illusions. Politics, in my view, is mere process, and political principles should be guidelines, not hard and fast rules dictating behavior no matter what. Again, nobody’s smart enough or knowledgeable enough to avoid being wrong to some extent or in some way, so we need to work at finding out the truth, and work at doing things right.

Call it the post- Garden of Eden model of politics. There is no utopian political method to regain paradise, all are fallen, all are fallible, and we need to work to get things right by the sweat of our brows. Defeating your opponent in debate is not enough, you must also defeat your problems as well. That, I think, is what Republicans have lost site of. In trying to purify their principles, purify policy and politicians to the extent they have, they’ve lost site of a critical insight: that the world will mess up their neat little ideas and assumptions, and they will do themselves a lot more good by letting this moderation occur, than fighting it every time it occurs.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 3, 2012 9:22 PM
Comment #352062
as the laws allow them to do things with impunity that are no different in their negative effect than anything the government might do.

‘no difference’? Sorry, but no one in the private sector has the legal right to force anyone to do anything. That is reserved for government.

The problem is that progressives and conservatives can’t understand that simple fact. Using that rhetoric to authorize the use of force on the citizens when it isn’t necessary is MUCH MUCH worse than anything any private industry can do…

Do I have to list the thousands and thousands of people who have died because of the ‘war on drugs’, the people shot dead by police for doing nothing wrong, the injustices that the power you want to hand to the government brings with it?

No, I doubt that would sway you, the end result is that both parties want more power to enforce their version of morality onto the citizens of the US, never realizing that the power they crave is the same power they lament their rivals having…

Posted by: Rhinehold at September 3, 2012 10:32 PM
Comment #352064

BTW, just so you know, you may not think much about the American people, but they can usually get a sense of when a candidate is spending all their time lying about and demonizing their opponent instead of running on their own record, and figure out the reasons why they are doing that…

Posted by: Rhinehold at September 3, 2012 10:45 PM
Comment #352065

Stephen


In evolution we can classify animals by their heritage. Human affairs are different. An animal cannot copy an eye or a fin from another animal. Humans always copy and adapt from the experience and examples of others.

Communism and Nazism appeal to the same sorts of human emotions. They believe in revolutionary means to improve humanity with mass movements. Both discount the individual in favor of the group. In both, you are born into a group (class or race) and you are judged by that. This is the source of their evil. They did not judge people by what they did but rather by their group status.

Re Nazi-communist torture - it was not this that defined those groups. “Good” people have been in situations where they engaged in necessary brutality or violence. My father and uncles were with the troops that landed in Normandy. They took no prisoners. That is not a saying that just means that they were tough.

Anyway, this is a difficult moral problem. You are willing to sacrifice many innocent lives to avoid brutality to someone who probably deserves it. I am not. I understand that you have convinced yourself that torture doesn’t work. Frankly, I am a little more bloody minded about this than you are. I think it DOES work, but even if I doubted it, I am willing to test it out on the likes of KAL. Call me a barbarian on this if you want. I admit that my patina of civilization slips a bit when people attack my country. I don’t know if I would have the physical courage to carry it out, but I would personally have killed Osama bin Laden given the opportunity. Would you not do the same?

Posted by: C&J at September 3, 2012 10:49 PM
Comment #352067
Still with your love of Nazis?

No wonder C&J, it is your inability to comprehend what I am saying that is the problem.

How can anyone persist in making arguments about something they seem to know next to nothing? In fact, I think it could be said negative knowledge of the subject since so many things just wrong.

Good point C&J, you ask me “Still with your love of Nazis?” and claim I know next to nothing,HA, who you kidding.

Your fellow liberals have castigated you. You must understand that your arguments have no effect on any intelligent person with a reasonable understanding of history.

I don’t feel castigated quite yet C&J. In fact tcsend’s response is the best rebuttal to what I have suggested. I gotta say though my argument has had quite the effect on you it seems. Just saying.

Are you doing the liberal thing and going for the credulous and stupid constituencies?

Now that you mention it I am trying to get conservatives to at least look at the possibility that their blind allegiance to the propagandist of the far right may have a price.


The scary thing is that you seem to believe what you say. It is not so much the ignorance that I find frightening as the complete lack of desire to become less ignorant.

I do believe what I am saying C&J. I question if I am making more of it than it is perhaps. Your confusion over what is ignorant and what isn’t is telling IMHO C&J. Why would I ask these questions if I didn’t want to improve my knowledge. It seems conservatives refuse to deal with it without the usual name calling and denial. That to me is ignorance, not to mention a bit scary and closed minded.

LibRick and j2t2 insinuate that conservatives are like Nazi’s and then try to deny they ever said it.

Tsk tsk Frank obviously you are wrong in your assessment of what has been said. You have been involved in previous comments on this issue in previous threads and should know better.

Well guys it seems anger and hatred has taken over the conservatives responses to this issue. I am sorry for causing the emotional responses to this issue by the conservatives that post here on WB. I am asking that you guys cool off for a bit and then look at the issue with a logical perspective and open up your minds a bit and discuss this sensitive issue a bit more rationally. Keep in mind I am not calling you a Nazi I am saying their exists the possibility you are over zealous in your fervor for anything conservative. I am suggesting you take a look back and ask yourself if you don’t feel used just a bit. That perhaps the propaganda from movement leaders has caused you to be a bit to reactionary to the present administration.

Do you guys realize Romney is a moderate that has been chosen by movement leaders to represent you in the upcoming election. The difference between GWB and Romney is nil. Yet you guys have been so focused on Obama and the lies told about him to you by your movement leaders that you cannot see you are voting for more of the same. Quite a feat for the movement leaders to pull off but thy have did just this and not one of you have spoken up, instead it was a Kumbaya moment at the convention as Romney told you he is your candidate.

You guys are trying to tell us GWB wasn’t a conservative yet here you go again. Falling for anything they say if they wave a flag mention God and insult Obama.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 3, 2012 11:41 PM
Comment #352071

Rhinehold-
I’ve read accounts of what Pinkerton detectives, strikebreakers, mercenaries, and other agents of private individuals have done over both our history, and the history of the world. So, if the laws are lax enough, private entities can take on powers in the real world that nominally they shouldn’t have. Ask people about coal mines and the company store.

Your ideal is that the market would provide people with a way out, but the market can be pretty much like any environment, neither good, nor evil, but sometimes harsh and unfair. Of course, nature doesn’t do things by its choice, and people do, so there is a solution, a means of prevention. You just don’t like it.

C&J-

Human affairs are somewhat different. Somewhat. People sometimes copy and adapt from the experience and examples of others. Sometimes. Other times, they ignore or even block out other’s lessons, others’ experience.

All political system that run out of control appeal to the same human emotion: the fear of loss of control of its supporters. But that definition of yours is so vague as to be problematic. Don’t Republicans believe in their revolutions, to improve America, to make America a beacon to the rest of the world? As much as Republicans say they favor the individual, it helps if you are a rich indidividual. Otherwise, they look at your downsizing, your descent into poverty, as a statistic. They look at actions that could keep millions from getting healthcare as no big deal.

One could say very easily that if you are born poor, or a minority you could be judget adversely by the Republicans, but more broadly, you might find yourself confronted with hateful rhetoric if you’re an immigrant, illegal or not, if you’re a liberal, if you’re not a Christian, or a believer in God. If you want any evidence, go look at the way Frank or others of the more aggressive GOP commentators talk to me and about me. It’s clear they’re trying to marginalize me, and everybody like me.

That’s not yet in Nazi territory, but each step they take goes further towards the same need to slay the dragons they are told to perceive.

As far as Nazi’s torture?

Torture is a deal with the devil. The promise is, if you break their will, you will get the information, your expedience will be rewarded with better results.

Trouble is, like with many deals with the devil, the payoff isn’t what you might have preferred. People’s memory degrades as more stress, pain, and suffering is applied. The person’s ability to resist the interrogator’s preformed opinions is reduced, producing suggestibility not unlike what one finds with UFO abductees put under hypnosis. Nothing of what they say is any more likely to be true than anything else.

The truth is, you get better results from untortured subjects. That outweighs the emotional value. I would much rather spend my emotional force hunting down and getting these people, than sending myself on wild goose chases for the sake of getting off on my enemy’s torment.

Besides, you underestimate the stress and strain put on the soldiers, put on the individual doing this kind of thing, in fact in war in general. It’s not you or I who has to go to the darkside, it’s some man or woman in their teens to their thirties who will have a hard enough time relating to people the horror of fighting, much less the psychological strain of applying torment to a helpless prisoner.

I can sit and headshot people on my video game all day, but that will never compare to actually killing somebody. Likewise, we can fantasize, through Jack Bauer and other characters in movies, that using torture tactics and beatings during interrogations can get the truth where it otherwise wouldn’t have gotten it, but in many case, you would have been better off just doing the calm, centered police work.

I think people have to realize that a conscience is as hardwired into the as their bloodlust, and that trying to force oneself to ignore that conscience can often be dangerous to one’s mental health.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 4, 2012 1:47 AM
Comment #352074

j2t2

My confusion stems from the fact the I have studied the issue and you have not. SO I am offended by the childish comparisons. I recognize them from junior high. I have “evolved” as our president might say and it is hard to understand the less sophisticated ideas I left behind.

I have explained it to the extent of your ability to understand. I know that I am being insulting, but I really have concluded that it is your problem of understanding and not mine of explaining.

So keep you Nazi love if you want. I will continue to castigate you in ways you cannot understand.

We can talk politics if you want, but I consider any references you make to Nazis ignorant.

Just curious - have you ever visited Nazi death camps? If so, did it not affect you and make you feel small for playing with such a big evil for your little ends? You think I am just on you because of politics. It goes well beyond that. My revulsion with what you are saying here goes well beyond the mere intellectual, but that is also something I cannot understand. It is like trying to explain calculus to a cave man.

Stephen

We can debate the usefulness of torture. I just am telling you that you don’t get to use the Nazi analogy. You don’t want to fall to the level of J2T2, do you?

Conflicts like the terror issue are morally ambiguous. It is easy to sit back and talk academically. Real choices are difficult. I have never killed anybody and I am glad of that. Many people I know have done and they are tormented by it, even when it was the right thing to do.

Re hateful rhetoric - I have been called all sorts of hateful things. Liberals do the hate thing very well. They almost always convince themselves that it is in self-defense and are usually wrong.

Posted by: C&J at September 4, 2012 6:30 AM
Comment #352075

NFLfan-

Under flat tax, fair tax, or consumption based tax schemes (whichever you choose) it would take power away from Congress to give out the exemptions and tax breaks for that they sell for contributions. So in other words none of those will ever get passed…..

Posted by: George at September 4, 2012 9:47 AM
Comment #352081

C&J-
I don’t get to use the Nazi analogy? No problem, because it’s not an analogy.

To devise our program of enhanced interrogation, we employed techniques derived from those we used to prepare soldiers in SERE training. SERE techniques are in turn based on the techniques used by regimes like the Chinese and the Koreans, and are in fact almost identical to techniques used by the Nazis, with the same basic label, no less.

And the conclusions of the experts teaching these SERE training courses pretty much form the basis of my dispute of your positions. These are brainwashing techniques. They are illegal under the geneva convention, and they are ill-suited to actual interrogation. To quote that article’s quote:

“This is the guidebook to getting false confessions, a system drawn specifically from the communist interrogation model that was used to generate propaganda rather than intelligence,” Kleinman said in an interview. “If your goal is to obtain useful and reliable information this is not the source book you should be using.”

So, this isn’t merely an attempt to rhetorically disparage the system as being like Soviet and Nazi interrogation techniques.

They are Nazi and Soviet interrogation techniques.

Torture doesn’t work. There are other methods that work better without the serious downside.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 4, 2012 1:26 PM
Comment #352096

Stephen

We would all prefer to get information from tips and informants. But it depends on what you have and who you have. Your source say, “In fact, the problem of torture does not stem from the prisoner who has information; it stems from the prisoner who doesn’t.” In the case of people like Al Qaeda prisoners, they had it; they gave it and it saved lives.

I don’t know about you, but if I was asked nicely to tell things I didn’t want others to know, I might not do it, at least not very fast. But if somebody threatened or did something, I might be more forthcoming.

Torture is also being defined much more broadly these days. As I wrote before, any sort of discomfort that you might experience on a very long air flight in tourist class, doesn’t count as torture.

The other thing I would say is that we have always kept a perfect head to body ratio among our prisoners; our enemies do not.

So I don’t think we want to make any kind of harshness routine. But if a guy like KSM suffers a lot even to save an innocent person a little suffering, I think it is a good deal.

If you want to take your Nazi thing to its conclusion, they also pioneered highways, were good wildlife managers, ran excellent anti-smoking campaigns, designed rockets and Volkswagens. In fact, our moon-shot owed a lot to Nazi science. Just because Nazis did something does not make everyone who does something similar like them. If you want to make comparisons, you have to go with the things that they did and nobody else did at all or in similar combinations.

Posted by: C&J at September 4, 2012 5:33 PM
Comment #352123

C&J-
Here’s the thing: the prisoner who has information, and the one who doesn’t can be the same prisoner. A torturer may just end up running that Prisoner past a point they don’t realize is significant, or which they don’t want to believe, and by the time they realize their mistake, they’ll have probably muddled up what was actually there.

Your concept of torture is not some nuanced one, it’s the erroneous picture of torture, the one screenwriters use to disguise exposition and make their rogue cops look tough, contemptuous about the rules. When you can write the information the criminal or terrorist is squealing, you don’t have to worry about how interrogations really work.

And what if, as rarely happens in movies and TV shows, they have the completely wrong person? One of the signature problems of torture is that you can get a person who knows absolutely nothing, and suddenly, they know everything! They better know everything! If they don’t, it’s more pain for them.

And you know what? Every false lead that either the guilty or the innocent are forced to offer up is a opportunity lost. Torture is all about authoritarianism, the tormentor believing they are right, and it takes a hell of a lot of convincing to stop a torturer.

Torture is also being defined much more broadly these days. As I wrote before, any sort of discomfort that you might experience on a very long air flight in tourist class, doesn’t count as torture.

No, it doesn’t. First, you choose to be on that flight, and you can get up and flex those legs. You can get food and water, and go to the bathroom. You aren’t locked in a small box, with your release at your captor’s whim. You aren’t handcuffed with your arms behind your head.

The other thing I would say is that we have always kept a perfect head to body ratio among our prisoners; our enemies do not.

Well, congratulations. You’re not decapitating your prisoners. Only torturing them in a way near identical to what the Gestapo did to people. You should be proud of yourself. Me, I don’t want to be slightly better than these people, I want to be about as far from them as I can get. That’s the kind of pride I take in my country and its values. I’m not a summer patriot when it comes to these things. These are values that must be kept even when things are tough.

It’s not merely that these literal gestapo tactics are inefficient at getting good information, it’s that they represent a surrender to our worst fears, allowing them, and not fact and rational thought to govern our policy.

If we used German know-how to do great things like build roads, be stewards of the Earth, send rockets to the moon, I can live with that. But using the techniques of the Nazis to betray our own values? No. Let’s leave behind the bad, and carry forward the good.

Let American be better than its enemies, not quick to fall to their low standards.


Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 4, 2012 11:15 PM
Comment #352124
So keep you Nazi love if you want. I will continue to castigate you in ways you cannot understand.We can talk politics if you want, but I consider any references you make to Nazis ignorant.

C&J you are getting overly emotional and threatening in your responses. I wish I could do something to help you out of this emotional tizzy you seem to be having. But the problem is you. You are the only one talking about Nazi’s not me. I am trying to focus the issue on the otherwise good people who followed the wrong people. Who become obsessed with a cause and with blind allegiance follows the leaders of this cause into the abyss.


Just curious - have you ever visited Nazi death camps? If so, did it not affect you and make you feel small for playing with such a big evil for your little ends? You think I am just on you because of politics. It goes well beyond that. My revulsion with what you are saying here goes well beyond the mere intellectual, but that is also something I cannot understand. It is like trying to explain calculus to a cave man.

C&J, such a misleading question. We all have a revulsion to the actions of the Nazi’s C&J. As it should be. But once again you are twisting what I say into something it is not. You are now violating Goodwins law. Perhaps if you would stop twisting what is being said into something it is not your intellectual challenges would not be so overwhelming for you.

Look guys we all have seen the conservatives on WB as well as around our neighborhoods and at work who have become fanatical in their hatred of Obama. They have been victimized by misinformation half truths and outright lies by conservative propagandist. These propagandist have caused many decent people to believe Obama is a Muslim who was not born in this country. This is extreme, very extreme. This is the tip of the iceberg. The coming financial collapse , the return to the precious metal standard. Little by little it keeps adding up. The conservatives who listen to these guys keep getting more and more concerned.

I’m just asking conservatives to stop for a moment and think about what you have been led to believe. To question these people who distort facts and figures to keep you fearful.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 4, 2012 11:39 PM
Comment #352125

Stephen

There are so few prisoners to whom this has been done that there is a high probability that they know something. KSM was clearly an insider. It is not like we were picking up random people. In a war that included many thousands of people, we are talking a few dozen.

Before you tell me that there are so many, let me remind you that I was in Iraq. I saw many of the prisoners we took and I know that none of them were tortured. Even in Guantanamo most of the prisoners were/are treated very well. Journalist go there and find not much. In fact, we had such a respect for the rule of law that many were let free because evidence was weak. On the other hand, I saw the remains of a man and his 11 year old son with their heads cut off by terrorists. Their crime was selling rice in the market when the bad guys were trying to make things worse. You have to respect the restraint of people who can treat the guys who did this with respect when they are caught.

I know that in your opinion even ONE case is too much. I disagree, when we are talking about folks like Osama bin Laden or KSM. In any case, don’t exaggerate the numbers. Harsh interrogation is not and never has been routine. In many of the famous cases, what has been done is illegal and was not authorized.

I am not sure why you think the way you do. I know that it is a strictly academic perspective. You see clearly black and white. I think there are ambiguities in this world in practice.

Posted by: C&J at September 4, 2012 11:45 PM
Comment #352169

j2t2

Maybe you don’t understand the implications of your comparison. I will give you the benefit of that doubt. The reason I get in a “tizzy” about this is based both on my historical understanding (incompetent use of historical evidence bother me) and morality (as I mentioned.)

I lived in Poland for eight years. I saw the persistent and pernicious results of years of communist and Nazism. I met people who were enslaved by one or both of these systems and met lots of people who lost family. I felt some special responsibility because the war generation was dying off when I was there. I was among the last people to talk to many of these witnesses, which confers a special responsibility. I take these things more seriously than many people do as a result.

I do indeed get more upset than I do about other things. I have nothing but contempt for your ignorance on this subject and your inability to learn.

I had developed some respect for your contributions here. Although I generally disagree, you have often stated your objections well and with decency. This prolonged discussion is revealing a very different side.

It is annoying that I have to slap you down over and over in the same way.

You are entitled to say what you want about conservatives. Much of what you think you know is wrong, but that is why we have such debates. I object to the specific comparisons with Nazis. As I explained to you, your misunderstanding of this period is too monumental. And you must understand that using this analogy tends to crowd out other considerations. It is like the use of vulgarity. It is not meant to explain but merely to insult.

So have fun in that intellectual cave of yours. If you ever learn enough to see the light, you will be ashamed of yourself.

Posted by: C&J at September 5, 2012 6:43 AM
Comment #352233
Maybe you don’t understand the implications of your comparison. I will give you the benefit of that doubt.

The problem has now become you don’t understand the comparison C&J. Despite your intellectual prowess you do not seem to be able to grasp the difference between comparing conservatives with Nazi’s, and comparing conservatives with the people of Germany who were fooled by Hitler and his propagandist until it was to late to stop him. So I don’t need the benefit of your doubt.

You are entitled to say what you want about conservatives. Much of what you think you know is wrong, but that is why we have such debates. I object to the specific comparisons with Nazis.

What specific comparisons with Nazis C&J? I have not made one specific comparison between Nazis and Conservatives. I did link to sites that indicated the NAzis to be a conservative group in response to your assertions they were socialist liberals.

DO you not read what I write? I am comparing conservatives to the people of Germany in the late 20’s and early 30’s. You do realize that just because you say it so many times you are still wrong. The “say it enough and it becomes true” thing doesn’t work on me.

Look C&J when Germany was ripe for takeover Hitler and the extremist of his party gained power. However prior to that he was in prison for a failed attempt earlier. Now we can close the doors and bar the windows because I mentioned Hitler or we can continue to explore what happened and how. Unless of course you accept that each and every German was behind Hitler and went in to the 3rd Reich with open eyes. I don’t believe that I believe they were duped by propagandist.

Did the German system of proportional representation allow the few to control the many or did it weaken the Republic to the point they couldn’t stop him. What does this have to do with conservatives of today? Nothing so far. Except the concept of “small” government the conservatives want. This one comparison doesn’t mean much but it continues to add to the similarities between the conservatives of today and the people of Germany in the late 20’s and early 30’s. Gotta go will try to add to this later.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 5, 2012 6:16 PM
Comment #352245

j2t2

So you are protesting your ignorance and claim that you don’t know that Nazism followed.

“Did the German system of proportional representation allow the few to control the many or did it weaken the Republic to the point they couldn’t stop him. What does this have to do with conservatives of today? Nothing so far. Except the concept of “small” government the conservatives want.”

Have you EVER heard an American conservative advocate proportional representation? Proportional representation has absolutely nothing to do with small government.

This is too stupid to continue. I feel myself getting stupider just engaging here with you. I am better than that.

I have developed a simple boilerplate. From now on when a Nazi lover like you appears will simply write.

**Another ignorant comment about Nazis. Please refer to early debunking of this. **

Posted by: C&J at September 5, 2012 7:48 PM
Comment #352317
So you are protesting your ignorance and claim that you don’t know that Nazism followed.

Don’t be ridiculous C&J. Just because Nazism followed doesn’t mean anyone called conservatives Nazis. My god man cannot you get it thru your head what I am saying. There may be some ignorance going on here but it appears to be willful ignorance on your part.

This is too stupid to continue. I feel myself getting stupider just engaging here with you. I am better than that.

Trust me, C&J, It shows in your comments as well. Try focusing on the issue instead of the name calling and perhaps you wouldn’t feel as stupid as you do. I agree that you are better than that and I feel like you have spent more time and energy insulting me, name calling and changing the subject than to be at your best.


I have developed a simple boilerplate. From now on when a Nazi lover like you appears will simply write.

**Another ignorant comment about Nazis. Please refer to early debunking of this. **

And if you lie about me and call me names such as “Nazi Lover” I will bring up your pedophilia problem ;)
But please don’t assume this bullying will silence me C&J.


Look C&J it is obvious you have gotten yourself worked up here with all the name calling and the personal threat. You have wrongly focused your anger on what you think I said not what I said. So I will do a cooling off period so as to allow you time you get a grip on yourself. Then in a few months I will present a full argument that will clarify for you what I am saying. I am way to busy this time of the year to do this now and with all the time spent defending myself from your scurrilous attacks instead of clarifying my point perhaps at a later date we will be able to discuss this issue a bit more intelligently.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 6, 2012 8:20 PM
Comment #352330

j2t2

**Another ignorant comment about Nazis. Please refer to early debunking of this. **

Posted by: C&J at September 6, 2012 11:10 PM
Comment #352405

So C&J it seems we have no deal and I need not be held to the cooling off period.

I just can’t stoop as low as you though C&J so I will refrain from any questions on your pedophilia problem.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 7, 2012 4:34 PM
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