Democrats & Liberals Archives

unending series of gaffes, lies, and flip-flops that has come to define the Romney campaign so far

And the unending series of gaffes, lies, and flip-flops by the Obama administration, coupled with failures and an inability to lead without having everything he wants handed to him on a plate won’t cripple the Obama campaign?

I guess that is one way to look at it.

Rhinehold: President Obama is defined by his four years leading the country for better or worse. He doesn’t look like a flip-flopper, and his so-called lies and gaffes amount largely to out of context quotes that go viral thanks to right wing liars on multiple levels including at your level.

Multiple times now the Romney campaign has turned the quotes into a series of signs and slogans at every campaign stop. He does it without realizing that they have no message of their own but just a message against Obama that is built on a tower of misinformation. As a liberal I love seeing that. It’s the sort of thing that makes folks on the right like Karl Rove cringe and start planning for the 2016 election.

He doesn’t look like a flip-flopper, and his so-called lies and gaffes amount largely to out of context quotes that go viral thanks to right wing liars on multiple levels including at your level.

Really? Hmmm, let’s see…

Against gay marriage, now for it.
Against the war in Afghanistan, now for it.
Against the drug war, now expanding it.
Against wiretapping, now expanded it.
Against Guantanamo, now for it.
Against torture, now for it.
Against war, now has engaged the enemy in 7 different countries.
Against assassinations, now for them.
Has determined he has the right to be prosecutor, judge and jury on the guilt or innocence of American citizens and can kill them when he decides he can.

None of these are ‘taking quotes out context. You are making a sad attempt to deflect from these actual very serious things by latching on to any perceived ‘attacks’ on Obama while defending the same from him camp against Romney. It would be quite funny if it weren’t for all of the people he’s killing and putting in jail and all of the lives of the rest that he has ruined…

Multiple times now the Romney campaign has turned the quotes into a series of signs and slogans at every campaign stop.

OMG, you mean they are doing the same thing that progressives have been doing for decades? I’ll believe the outrage when I see the progressives stop calling conservatives ‘child killers’, ‘warring against the old’, ‘pushing grandma out of her wheelchair’, etc.

You can see that now, directly, with the attacks on Ryan, from calling him an Objectivist to “History’s Greatest Monster” to ads showing him throwing grandma off of a cliff.

The lies and political partisanship certainly doesn’t lie on just one side of the aisle here…

Give me a freaking break.

Rhinehold you must be a bit giddy to see Ryan as the VP choice. He is after all an Ayn Rand disciple.

Rhinehold you must be a bit giddy to see Ryan as the VP choice. He is after all an Ayn Rand disciple.

Could care less actually, He’s not an objectivist (as I have already pointed out and you choose to ignore) and neither am I.

The election is becoming clearer.

A vote for Obama means more government management of your life.

A vote for Romney means you want to make more choices for yourself.

With Obama you get charisma; with Romney you get competence.

If you like how things have been over the past four years, vote Obama; if you hope for a better change, go with Romney.

Rhinehold:

I agree with you on a couple in your list but for the most part the facts don’t fit what you’re saying and I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

1. Against gay marriage, now for it.

True. Obama certainly changed his stance though is it a flip flop unless he waffles on it for political reasons?

2. Against the war in Afghanistan, now for it.

False. Obama campaigned on ending Iraq and escalating Afghanistan.

3. Against the drug war, now expanding it.

True. He hasn’t done as much if anything that he promised on the drug war and promises to do it in his second term as if that placates anyone.

4. Against wiretapping, now expanded it.

False. Obama promised expanded oversight of wiretapping, not simply to reduce it. He has taken a few steps to expand oversight though obviously this is an area some folks wish he’d kept all his promises on.

5. Against Guantanamo, now for it.

False. Obama is not for GITMO just because Congress failed to follow up with him to close it.

6. Against torture, now for it.

False. Obama ended the use of torture.

7. Against war, now has engaged the enemy in 7 different countries.

False. Obama made many promises about expanding the military, escalating he Afghan war, investing in advanced military technology, etc. These are not the promises of someone against all war.

8. Against assassinations, now for them.

Maybe: How he was against assassinations?

9. Has determined he has the right to be prosecutor, judge and jury on the guilt or innocence of American citizens and can kill them when he decides he can.

Maybe: I’m unclear on his exact stance on Americans engaged in terrorism against the US or our allies.

Adam and Rhinhold

I don’t hold some of the things mentioned above against Obama. When he actually became president, he understood the world differently than when he was a candidate.

What I don’t like about Obama is that he just is in over his head. He promised to fix the economy and said that if things weren’t better by … now, he didn’t deserve a second term. We should hold him to that promise.

“…and said that if things weren’t better by … now, he didn’t deserve a second term. We should hold him to that promise.”

Things are better. Your side continually redefines what “better” means in order to ignore the progress the economy has made during his time. Economic growth is already sluggish after a financial crisis. Without housing starts even more so. There is almost no way the economy could be in better shape now given different leadership or actions and many paths promoted by conservatives would have literally ruined us.

Things are better, how so Adam, 8.3% unemployment, economy in the tank, fuel prices almost at $4.00 per gallon food prices rising, job outlook bleak, if this is better I’d hate to see what pisspoor is.

“Maybe: I’m unclear on his exact stance on Americans engaged in terrorism against the US or our allies.”

Not so unclear. The Obama administration has taken the position that it will kill those who are actively engaged in attempting to or have killed Americans regardless of their country of origin.

This has been a clear policy of Obama since his candidacy and he has followed up on it in spades. No borders are sacrosanct. No person is sacrosanct. No safe havens. Drone strikes, special operations, covert actions to assassinate. Not a problem.

The argument of the administration is simple: this is self defense, clear and simple. If we could arrest and try them, we would but that is not possible in many cases. What difference does it make if they are US citizens? If they are in the active process of attempting to kill one or many of us, what are we supposed to do?

Criticism of Obama on this matter is ludicrous.

Adam

I think this is the worst recovery since we started to keep records. Certainly, when Obama promised to make things better, he didn’t mean that unemployment would only be a little worse than when he took office.

The man failed where it counted. He succeeded in passing a massive stimulus that has left as much sign as the snows of last winter and he succeeded in passing a health care plan that extended coverage w/o reducing costs. If you think this is a great legacy, you will probably vote for Obama.

But if you think the record of the past four years has not been very good or if you want the great American job machine to come back into life, you should probably vote for a change with Romney.

4. Against wiretapping, now expanded it.

False. Obama promised expanded oversight of wiretapping, not simply to reduce it. He has taken a few steps to expand oversight though obviously this is an area some folks wish he’d kept all his promises on.

Mmm, no, sorry.

http://www.salon.com/2009/04/06/obama_91/

http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/07/federal-appeals-court-says-warrantless-wiretapping-is-legal/

5. Against Guantanamo, now for it.

False. Obama is not for GITMO just because Congress failed to follow up with him to close it.

First, Obama didn’t need Congressional approval to move everyone out of GITMO and return it to the purpose it was intended.

Second, the myth that you are defending just isn’t true and has been documented to be just that, a myth.

http://www.salon.com/topic/guantanamo/

6. Against torture, now for it.

False. Obama ended the use of torture.

No, he didn’t.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un

7. Against war, now has engaged the enemy in 7 different countries.

False. Obama made many promises about expanding the military, escalating he Afghan war, investing in advanced military technology, etc. These are not the promises of someone against all war.

Ok, so he’s a war hawk… Are you willing to admit to that and have him send his peace prize back?

At least you can admit that he deployed US resources into another country without proper Congressional approval (as the constitution states)? I think he said something about that against Bush…

““The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation,” Obama told the Boston Globe in 2007.”

8. Against assassinations, now for them.

Maybe: How he was against assassinations?

I seem to remember him and many other Democrats very upset about Bush trying to assassinate Saddam… Of course, he was a Republican, so that may explain it.

9. Has determined he has the right to be prosecutor, judge and jury on the guilt or innocence of American citizens and can kill them when he decides he can.

Maybe: I’m unclear on his exact stance on Americans engaged in terrorism against the US or our allies.

I’m not. Here is some info since you are not ‘well versed’ on the president that you support’s positions.

http://www.salon.com/2012/03/06/attorney_general_holder_defends_execution_without_charges/

BTW, here’s some more reading for you…

http://stpeteforpeace.org/obama.html

Obama has cemented the authoritarian use of the war on terror to violate everything this country values by expanding the power of the president to pretty much do whatever he wants because most of the progressives supporting him are too spineless to point out the egregiousness of his administration’s actions.

If they are in the active process of attempting to kill one or many of us, what are we supposed to do?

We are supposed to attempt to capture them/arrest them and bring them to justice. Give them their day in court. What if we are wrong? We have been before you know…

No, you’re right, screw the rights we have as citizens…

In case the GITMO link doesn’t work…

http://www.salon.com/2012/07/23/the_obama_gitmo_myth/

BTW:

Among other things, since taking office Obama has: - Signed the NDAA into law — assassinating US citizens w/o trial now legal - Personally oversaw a ‘Secret Kill List’ - Waged war on Libya without congressional approval - Started a covert, drone war in Yemen - Escalated the proxy war in Somalia - Escalated the CIA drone war in Pakistan - Will maintain a presence in Iraq even after “ending” war - Sharply escalated the war in Afghanistan - Secretly deployed US special forces to 75 countries - Sold $30 billion of weapons to the dictatorship in Saudi Arabia - Signed an agreement for 7 military bases in Colombia - Opened a military base in Chile - Defended body scans and pat-downs at airports - Signed the Patriot Act extension into law - Deported a modern-record 1.5 million immigrants - Continued Bush’s rendition program

I especially like this one:

“The United States opposes the use of violence and repression against the people of the region” claimed Obama, while simultaneously dropping bombs on the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen and Libya.

Grandpa has a way with words:

“The last thing I want to do when in retirement is to go “shopping” for health care with an increasingly worthless voucher and try to figure out who is merely ripping me off and who is basically going to let me die and charge me for it too. I haven’t been paying into this system for almost 30 years for some smug entitled prick to tell me “we can’t afford” Medicare while he gives tax breaks to the obscenely wealthy and increases the Defense budget. If we lived in a sane country people would tar and feather scum like Paul Ryan and Willard “Kitten Mittens” Romney.”

Romney couldn’t have picked a better running mate in Paul Ryan. He is a conservative and will excite the base.

I suggest Adam Ducker wil be laughing out the other end in November.

“Voters have grown more pessimistic about the economy lately and President Obama barely maintains a high 40’s job approval. At the same time somehow more states are moving away from Romney and the President has opened up nearly a 5 point average lead in national polling.”

Nothing is ever as it seems.

Rhinehold: “Mmm, no, sorry.”

Show me where Obama promised to do away with wire tapping. That’s the key piece of information.

“Second, the myth that you are defending just isn’t true and has been documented to be just that, a myth.”

Your article agrees that Congress blocked the closure, so I hardly see how Greenwald adding details about what would happen after it closed makes that a myth. If Obama flip-flopped on GITMO he would have had to have changed positions. Has he?

“At least you can admit that he deployed US resources into another country without proper Congressional approval…”

Deflection away from the fact that you’ve claimed Obama has flip-flopped on war somehow. He didn’t. You know he didn’t.

“No, he didn’t [end torture].”

Notice how your source says the conditions Manning were kept in “might have constituted torture” but not that he was tortured as part of an enhanced interrogation program that Obama ended. Where’s the flip flop?

“I seem to remember him and many other Democrats very upset about Bush trying to assassinate Saddam…”

You remember or you have proof?

“I’m not. Here is some info since you are not ‘well versed’ on the president that you support’s positions.”

I was not aware that I needed to know every position on every subject the man holds in order to support him. I was thinking that when I agree with Obama on a large majority of things and disagree with Romney on a large majority of things that was good enough. You non-partisans sure are strict.

But again…what has that got to do with a flip-flop? You are correct mostly in his current position on events, but you seem to be imagining a past stance or position that would make his current view a flip flop. In the end you’re wrong on almost every item in your list but you continue making a point that is irrelevant to your original argument.

Frank: “I suggest Adam Ducker wil be laughing out the other end in November.”

It’s hard to laugh out of something other than my mouth but then again you’d know more about human anatomy perhaps if you had a Marxist education like mine.

In the end you’re wrong on almost every item in your list

LOL, first, you agreed with or wasn’t sure (and I provided proof later) of 4 of the 9 on the list. That’s not ‘almost every item’.

Second, let me clarify a few things…

Show me where Obama promised to do away with wire tapping. That’s the key piece of information.

“Barack Obama opposed the Bush Administration’s initial policy on warrantless wiretaps because it crossed the line between protecting our national security and eroding the civil liberties of American citizens”

I assumed you would understand the issue, but apparently you have a quibble with the ‘warrantless’ part I left out.

Here is the relevant part of the link:

“the Obama DOJ filed the government’s first response to EFF’s lawsuit, the first of its kind to seek damages against government officials under FISA, the Wiretap Act and other statutes, arising out of Bush’s NSA program. But the Obama DOJ demanded dismissal of the entire lawsuit based on (1) its Bush-mimicking claim that the “state secrets” privilege bars any lawsuits against the Bush administration for illegal spying, and (2) a brand new “sovereign immunity” claim of breathtaking scope — never before advanced even by the Bush administration — that the Patriot Act bars any lawsuits of any kind for illegal government surveillance unless there is “willful disclosure” of the illegally intercepted communications.

Indeed, EFF filed the lawsuit in October but purposely agreed with Bush lawyers to an extension of the time to respond until April, in the hope that by making this Obama’s case, and giving his DOJ officials months to consider what to do when first responding, they would receive a different response than the one they would have gotten from the Bush DOJ.

That didn’t happen. This brief and this case are exclusively the Obama DOJ’s, and the ample time that elapsed — almost three full months — makes clear that it was fully considered by Obama officials. Yet they responded exactly as the Bush DOJ would have. This demonstrates that the Obama DOJ plans to invoke the exact radical doctrines of executive secrecy which Bush used — not only when the Obama DOJ is taking over a case from the Bush DOJ, but even when they are deciding what response should be made in the first instance. Everything for which Bush critics excoriated the Bush DOJ – using an absurdly broad rendition of “state secrets” to block entire lawsuits from proceeding even where they allege radical lawbreaking by the President and inventing new claims of absolute legal immunity — are now things the Obama DOJ has left no doubt it intends to embrace itself.”

Your article agrees that Congress blocked the closure, so I hardly see how Greenwald adding details about what would happen after it closed makes that a myth. If Obama flip-flopped on GITMO he would have had to have changed positions. Has he?

Yes, he has.

“”While appearing to be a step in the right direction, providing more process to Guantanamo detainees is just window dressing for the reality that today”s executive order institutionalizes indefinite detention, which is unlawful, unwise and un-American,” Anthony D. Romero, Executive Director of the American Civil Liberties Union said in a released statement. “The detention of Guantanamo detainees for nine years without charge or trial is a stain on America”s reputation that should be ended immediately, not given a stamp of approval.”

“The only way to restore the rule of law is to put an end to indefinite detention at Guantanamo and the broken commissions system, and to prosecute terrorism suspects in federal criminal courts,” Romero stated. “Today”s announcement takes us back a step when we should be moving forward toward closing Guantanamo and ending its shameful policies.”

Tom Parker, an official with Amnesty International said the administration’s insistence that it remains committed to closing Guantanamo is merely “lip service to the things President Obama previously stated.”

“It’s very clear he is not prepared to make the tough decisions it would require to close it,” Parker said.

In an interview with the Chicago Tribune, Parker said, “With the stroke of a pen, President Obama extinguished any lingering hope that his administration would return the United States to the rule of law by referring detainee cases from Guantanamo Bay to federal courts rather than the widely discredited military commissions.”“

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/177/close-the-guantanamo-bay-detention-center/

“Long before, and fully independent of, anything Congress did, President Obama made clear that he was going to preserve the indefinite detention system at Guantanamo even once he closed the camp. President Obama fully embraced indefinite detention — the defining injustice of Guantanamo — as his own policy.”

http://www.salon.com/2012/07/23/the_obama_gitmo_myth/

Notice how your source says the conditions Manning were kept in “might have constituted torture” but not that he was tortured as part of an enhanced interrogation program that Obama ended. Where’s the flip flop?

I see, so SOME torture is ok, as long as it isn’t part of an enhanced interrogation program?

“More than 250 of America’s most eminent legal scholars have signed a letter protesting against the treatment in military prison of the alleged WikiLeaks source Bradley Manning, contesting that his “degrading and inhumane conditions” are illegal, unconstitutional and could even amount to torture.

The list of signatories includes Laurence Tribe, a Harvard professor who is considered to be America’s foremost liberal authority on constitutional law. He taught constitutional law to Barack Obama and was a key backer of his 2008 presidential campaign.

Tribe joined the Obama administration last year as a legal adviser in the justice department, a post he held until three months ago.

He told the Guardian he signed the letter because Manning appeared to have been treated in a way that “is not only shameful but unconstitutional” as he awaits court martial in Quantico marine base in Virginia.”

BTW, a better explanation of why Libertarians aren’t ‘enthralled’ by Ryan…

Libertarians, meanwhile, should find it easy to reject Ryan. He’s a hawk with a rotten record on civil liberties: bad on the Patriot Act, bad on indefinite detentions, bad on surveillance, bad on the border fence, bad on the drug war. On the economic front, he has backed the bank and auto bailouts, Medicare Part D, even Davis-Bacon. His reputation as a free-market stalwart rests on his exaggerated reputation as a budget hawk and his habit of praising Ayn Rand. The second of those clearly hasn’t meant much when it’s time to vote on legislation, and as for the first…well, if the Democrats went nuts and replaced Joe Biden with Barney Frank, I’d have some kind words for his stances on pot and gambling, but I wouldn’t feel tempted to vote for him.

If Ryan were going head to head against Obama, you could make a case that the faux Randian is a lesser evil than the faux Alinskyan. In most of the places where Ryan is bad, after all, Obama is pretty lousy too. But for vice president? At least Joe Biden keeps me entertained.

Obviously, Romney wanted someone who could stand up to Katie Couric in an interview, provide an intelligent answer to the question, “what do you read?” and not whine afterwards that she asked “trick questions.”

“I see, so SOME torture is ok, as long as it isn’t part of an enhanced interrogation program?”

Any potentially inhumane treatment of Manning was not torture done at the directive of President Obama because he once was against torture and is now for it. That’s the relevant information to your argument.

“LOL, first, you agreed with or wasn’t sure (and I provided proof later) of 4 of the 9 on the list. That’s not ‘almost every item’.”

I agree on two. On the other two I remain unconvinced. On the GITMO question I’m also unswayed by what you seem to think is clear cut evidence. I agree his position on GITMO is nuanced but have you shown yet that his position has changed? If you were to revise your list to say indefinite detention then you might be right but that’s a complex subject you can’t sum up in one line like: “Against Guantanamo, now for it.” He tried to close GITMO even if you think he wanted to continue some of the systems from GITMO.

But again, I don’t disagree that Obama has changed direction on some things because being President is different that running for President. You left off the debt-ceiling. He certainly flip-flopped on that one. But he flip-flopped because he could no longer be afforded the luxury of taking a political stand against it as he did during the Bush years.

Your attempt was to try and paint Obama as guilty of lies, gaffes and flip-flops the same as Romney but you can’t make that case. The two just aren’t equal.

RUserious

Obviously, Romney wanted someone who could stand up to Katie Couric in an interview, provide an intelligent answer to the question, “what do you read?” and not whine afterwards that she asked “trick questions.”

I think we can clearly say that today the intellectual heavyweight are now on the Republican side. Obama and Biden are not stupid, but they don’t have any new ideas.

C&J

“I think we can clearly say that today the intellectual heavyweight are now on the Republican side. Obama and Biden are not stupid, but they don’t have any new ideas. “

There is no doubt that Rep Ryan is an intellectual heavyweight. He got himself annointed “deficit hawk” by the other intellectual heavyweights in the Republican Party by voting for two wars, two tax cuts, Medicare Part D and TARP. Truly brilliant examples of his new ideas.

RUserious

We will see how Ryan sweeps the floor with Biden intellectually. And Obama will look pretty callow when he tries his shallow message against real competence.

Fox News interviewed Debbie (Blabbermouth) Wasserman Shultz today. I literally had to change the channel; I never heard such BS in my life. She had her talking points attacking Ryan and Romney, and no one was going to stop her. When the commentator questioned her about the blatant lies; she just looked at him, with this puzzled look of “why are you questioning me”, and then right back to her choreographed talking points. It was truly embarrassing to watch her. How do the American people elect such idiots? I believe C&J have a valid point about the ignorance of liberal politicians. Let’s look at Congresswoman Maxine Waters for example; that woman doesn’t have enough sense to come in out of the rain, and yet she is a representative in the US Congress.

“It’s hard to laugh out of something other than my mouth but then again you’d know more about human anatomy perhaps if you had a Marxist education like mine.”
Posted by: Adam Ducker at August 11, 2012 10:58 PM

Adam, I concede to your superior knowledge of anal cavities.

Frank: “Adam, I concede to your superior knowledge of anal cavities.”

I do what I can. That education was the best $30,000 I ever spent.

Adam

At $30,000, you got a very good deal. For my kids at “inexpensive” public universities I figure around $20,000 a year or $80,000 for the whole thing, including upkeep.

The rising cost of higher education is a big problem. IMO, higher education is on the way to becoming a bubble, like housing. People will soon employ a combination of community colleges and distance learning with the expensive traditional colleges and the prices will come down.

I spent a year at an Ivy as a fellow. I noticed a few differences with the public schools I had attended, the most important of which was that coffee was “free.” Given the cost differences, I estimated that each cup of coffee cost around $85.00. IMO, you are better off at the public university and picking up coffee at Dunkin Donuts on the way in.

C&J: “At $30,000, you got a very good deal.”

The whole thing probably cost about $40,000 or $45,000 after pell grants. Because I had inferior ACT scores I wasn’t given a scholarship so I had to attend on grants and loans and work part time for food. Luckily my first job out of college paid off all the loans and I pay considerable amounts in taxes each year so I think the American people got their monies worth out of the pell grant investment in me…

I think we can clearly say that today the intellectual heavyweight are now on the Republican side. Obama and Biden are not stupid, but they don’t have any new ideas.

What new ideas are you referring to C&J? Ryan and Romney are touting the same old thing. I do have to say the intellectual battle is much more even now that Palin is gone, good to see you guys learned a lesson from that.

We will see how Ryan sweeps the floor with Biden intellectually. And Obama will look pretty callow when he tries his shallow message against real competence.

Real competence or Romney C&J? Romney has the advantage of not needing to tell the truth as his followers don’t hold him accountable as long as they perceive a win, if GWB is any example.

Romney does get credit for, IMHO, choosing Ryan when Bachmann was available, it does show some brains. This election will be telling, do we throw granny under the bus or not.

“What new ideas are you referring to C&J? Ryan and Romney are touting the same old thing. I do have to say the intellectual battle is much more even now that Palin is gone, good to see you guys learned a lesson from that.” j2t2

First, Palin is not gone; she will still be a thorn in the side of Obama and Biden.

Secondly, the ideas that Ryan has brought forth have been around ever since he brought them forth, but can be considered new since Obama and the Democrats have never considered making the hard choices to bring our economy back to sanity.

Thirdly, by “a learned lesson”, I am assuming you are talking about running a Tea Party conservative, if so, I guess we have not learned our lesson.

Fourth, you are stretching the conversation by placing “Biden and intellectual” in the same conversation. Palin was hands down more intelligent than Biden. I look forward to the first Ryan/Biden debate.

But I have a question: Ryan is a 7 term Congressman from a solid Democratic district, one in which Obama won handily in 08, but one in which a TP conservative has won by a consistent 57%; how will this affect the outcome of the election in 2012?

I think this was the first good move that Romney has made since he started running. Ryan is smart, well-spoken, and makes Mitt look better when they are together. His campaign was floundering, he has slipped in the polls and was getting no traction with undecided voters. Ryan will, if nothing else, excite the base who, I think are generally distrustful of Romney and rightly so. Pawlenty and Portman would not have generated any excitement about a pretty unexciting campaign, Ryan does.

I don’t know in the long run if Ryan will change much as I can see the ads of grandma getting pushed over a cliff in her wheelchair being pretty effective in Florida. Not that I am advocating hyperbolic advertising but it’s gonna happen and will likely work. It will certainly make the VP debate a lot more interesting.

I still don’t think that Romney/Ryan are gonna get this done. While they have a good VP candidate the GOP is still saddled with a mediocre at best presidential candidate. He let the Chicago pols define him and that’s going to be hard to overcome. He keeps making gaffs and other comments that confirm the “out of touch, rich, old, white guy” portrait that has been painted of him. I don’t see any states that are going to be more in play because of Ryan even his home state. Ryan doesn’t help with women and minority voters and hurts with the elderly. Florida is likely out for the GOP and that makes his path pretty difficult.

What I think is going to be really interesting is that Ryan now steps into the lead for the 2016 campaign which will start the day after this election. If Biden runs against him I don’t see Joe having what it takes to beat this guy. Hillary would make that race a lot more interesting …

Frank: “Palin was hands down more intelligent than Biden. I look forward to the first Ryan/Biden debate.”

I can’t tell if you’re kidding or not.

Romney has the advantage of not needing to tell the truth as his followers don’t hold him accountable as long as they perceive a win, if GWB is any example.

Or Obama. Not sure how Romney has the ‘advantage’, considering how much the Obamabots have defended each and every think Obama has done, as evidenced by the discussion with Adam earlier.

Rhinehold: “…as evidenced by the discussion with Adam earlier.”

I’m sorry if refuting your misinformation about Obama’s positions is considered “defended each and every thing Obama has done.” I don’t defend everything he’s done. I think Obama has fallen short in some ways but over all he’s been a decent President and he’s earned a second term if voters allow it.

Rhinehold and others want to equivocate about Obama and Romney. The thing is, though, Obama follows through on much of his policy, and doesn’t express the kind of shame Romney does by running from signature achievements.

If I could encapsulate the differences between the candidates, it’s that Romney has all but disowned RomneyCare, despite the fact that the other party hasn’t attacked that plan, while Obama has even embraced the word “Obamacare”, and not backed away from supporting it, despite fierce opposition from the other side.

The problem with Republicans is that they’re trying to consolidate their grip on their leaders not to consolidate power, but to prevent what they see as a dangerous liberalizing of politics. Unfortunately for them, if the public’s lost patience with the former order, that means getting everybody securely on the wrong side of an issue.

Choosing Ryan is indicative of this. You choose Ryan to consolidate the base. If Romney was successfully wooing the center, that might be a wise idea, but the indications out there is that Romney is losing the center, as Obama’s economic attacks on him hit home.

And now with Ryan on board, I think you will see the attacks only get worse in their impact, because Ryan is a textbook Randian elitist with a high profile economic agenda that was panned by most.

I think the Republicans are getting into a phase here where they care more about ideological purity and less about maintaining the sympathies of the voters.

Stephen, I think that Romney and his people gave up on the center with this choice because I think the internals in the polls looked really bad for them. He was losing ground and needed to do something immediately. Pawlenty and Portman had less down side but no upside. While I think he was generally a good choice for VP, it was an act of desperation. They bailed on the middle and undecided voters and are counting on whipping up the base and voter suppression to carry them through.

Frankly, I am more concerned than ever about Romney’s health! I hope he is in extremely good health and never gets sick - especially if he actually were to win the election.

The mere idea of Ryan becoming president scares the heck out of me. Talk about a Washington insider! That’s basically the only job he’s ever held. And he is an extremist to boot!

I copied a post from the Red column, by Marysdude. I think the post sums things up nicely.

I’m curious…just what does Ryan add to our foreign relations and foreign affairs?

The Mittster went haywire and has almost started an unnecessary war with Iran, and he’s not even in office, insulted the Brits, the Palestinians and the working Poles. We are in for another four disastrous years of failing leadership. We were on the mend after all those Cheney/Bush years, and if your guy gets into office, what will Ryan add?

NOTHING!!!!!! He’s a budget wonk with little interest in things actually important to America and Americans. Look at his voting record in Congress. This guy will become an albatross like Palin.
Posted by: Marysdude at August 13, 2012 4:27 PM
Comment #350680

Frank-
“But I have a question: Ryan is a 7 term Congressman from a solid Democratic district, one in which Obama won handily in 08, but one in which a TP conservative has won by a consistent 57%; how will this affect the outcome of the election in 2012?”

It’s comments like that that inspired my sobriquet. After 14 years of electing and reelecting a Tea Party conservative to Congress don’t you think it’s about time you call Rep. Ryan’s district solidly Republican? Or, would it make your head explode to consider a solidly Republican district was won handily by Mr. Obama in 2008?

First, Palin is not gone; she will still be a thorn in the side of Obama and Biden.

Oh Frank you poor delusional man. Palin couldn’t cut it as Governor of Alaska, she quit. She failed in her effort to become VP. She embarrassed herself with her lack of knowledge on many issues throughout the campaign. She is now a talking head on Faux. Because she can spew misinformation half truths and outright lies only serves to make her a moron not an intellectual. She isn’t coming to the repub convention, she is done.

Thirdly, by “a learned lesson”, I am assuming you are talking about running a Tea Party conservative, if so, I guess we have not learned our lesson.

Nope Frank I meant running a half wit for VP.

Fourth, you are stretching the conversation by placing “Biden and intellectual” in the same conversation. Palin was hands down more intelligent than Biden. I look forward to the first Ryan/Biden debate.

Once again you poor delusional man, thanks for the laugh. Please tell me this is bagger humor and your not serious.

Secondly, the ideas that Ryan has brought forth have been around ever since he brought them forth, but can be considered new since Obama and the Democrats have never considered making the hard choices to bring our economy back to sanity.

Yeah Frank kinda like repealing Obamacare is still new, even after Ryan and his ilk have voted 32 times to repeal it. The problem with your “hard choices is you’ve mistaken them for right choices which they are not.

I think that Ryan was a good choice for Romney. He is a seasoned campaigner, articulate and the leading policy architect for the Republicans in Congress.

This is shaping up to be a real fight on philosophy, fiscal policy and economics.

Romney’s vagueness, flip-flopping history and secretiveness was becoming a real liability for his campaign. He was being defined by Obama and the Democrats.

Ryan, on the other hand, brings clarity and consistency of conservative principals to the Romney campaign.

Contrary to other liberals on this site, I do not think that Ryan is another Palin. He is someone to be taken seriously.

j2t2

Ya, kinda like Obama and his belief that there are 57 states in the USA.

Or that corpse is a dead body and not a live marine.

And the lack of knowledge is consistent with the Chicago gangsta.

Maranatha

Rich,
I disagree about Ryan.

He is not a seasoned campaigner. He has never participated in a statewide campaign, never mind a national campaign.

His knowledge of issue is limited to his experience as a House of Representatives Republican. That’s it. He has virtually no knowledge of life outside the Beltway, or even life outside the Republican Party.

Ryan will not be clear or consistent about his principles now that he is on the national stage. He is a Climate Change denier. He co-sponsored a bill to define a human being as existing at the moment of conception, which not only rules out all abortions, including those in cases of incest & rape, but also rules out many kinds of birth control. And his stand on Medicare is so toxic, he didn’t even accompany Romney on a trip to FL. Want to bet on whether he’ll publicly discuss that portion of the Ryan Budget?

He’s not another Palin, but that’s damning him with faint praise. Palin had no business being on the national stage. Ryan is so far to the right, there’s no way he’ll be able to say what he has said in the past. Even the Republicans can read polls.

Conservatives are thrilled about a far-right conservative on the ticket. Liberals are thrilled about winning the election.

phx8,

Ryan provides some philosophical anchor to Romney’s campaign. Romney was increasingly adrift as the summer progressed. He was about to get clobbered by Obama.

Ryan will provide a conservative structure to Romney’s campaign and refocus Romney’s campaign on fiscal and economic issues. What will be interesting is whether Romney will actually campaign on the extreme conservative principals of Ryan. He has already backed away from the Ryan budget proposal. Romney is a political chameleon. We will see if the public buys this new incarnation.

Great article by Charles Pierce on the subject of Ryan (and how dangerous his Randian philosophy is to this nation):

Paul Ryan: Murderer of Opportunity, Political Coward, Candidate for Vice President of the United States

Couple of quotes from that article:

Paul Ryan is an authentically dangerous zealot. He does not want to reform entitlements. He wants to eliminate them. He wants to eliminate them because he doesn’t believe they are a legitimate function of government. He is a smiling, aw-shucks murderer of opportunity, a creator of dystopias in which he never will have to live. This now is an argument not over what kind of political commonwealth we will have, but rather whether or not we will have one at all, because Paul Ryan does not believe in the most primary institution of that commonwealth: our government. The first three words of the Preamble to the Constitution make a lie out of every speech he’s ever given. He looks at the country and sees its government as something alien that is holding down the individual entrepreneurial genius of 200 million people, and not as their creation, and the vehicle through which that genius can be channelled for the general welfare.

He does not have the raw balls to explain to the country that, no, he does not believe in government — not the federal government, anyway, and not as it was originally conceived, as the fundamental expression of a political commonwealth. He’s grandfathered his plan to chloroform Medicare so that, despite the deficit that he considers such an urgent problem, nobody alive today who might vote against him will be affected by it. For the same reason, he will not specify the cuts that he will make or the tax “loopholes” —coughMortgageInterestDeductioncough — that he will close. In any way that will come to matter to the people whose lives his policies will make harder and more miserable, Paul Ryan is still the high-school kid living off Social Security survivor benefits and reading Ayn Rand by flashlight under the sheets. Instead, he’s a guy pretending to be something he’s not, and doing so back in Janesville in a very swell Georgian mansion, which just happens to be listed on the National Register of Historic Places.

I think Pierce absolutely nails Ryan in that article.

Just like Mitt Romney who is a liar who cowardly takes every political position possible depending on which crowd he happens to be standing in front of, Paul Ryan is also a political coward and liar. Ryan knows damn well he can’t tell the country what he actually wants to do because he realizes that it comes off too frightening and extreme. So, depending on who the man is standing in front of, we can all look forward to varying versions of what he thinks and what the ticket intends to do if they win.
When Ryan is in front of the Tea Baggers he’ll let portions of the extremist-libertarian stuff out — but not too much about Medicare since that would freak out all those cranky old white people. When he’s in more mixed or general crowds he’ll try to sound as moderate and charming as he can manage to be. And, with the media or the press he is guaranteed to be as weasely and vague on policies and positions as Mittens himself always is.
(Although clearly he doesn’t fool the “Radical” Nuns and Catholic Bishops — who obviously realize that everything he does is callously designed to benefit the 1% and guaranteed to increase already-existing high levels poverty upon the poor and middle classes.)

Ryan is no Palin, and should be taken seriously. But I don’t think that he’s necessarily the best choice they could have come up with, despite that.

For one thing, he often talks the talk, but does he always walk the walk?

Keep something else in mind, something that should be brought up every time he dares to hold up his plan and call himself serious: he voted for everything that derailed a balance budget in the last Administration, the Wars, the benefits, and the tax cuts that were not paid for.

He made the mess, now he’s using it as an excuse to stick it further to the American people in order to increase the comfort and luxury of a few.

My feeling on Ryan is that he helps Obama define the ticket more firmly than even before as a plutocratic ticket, a reverse Robin Hood kind of operation. It will also help Obama get Florida, which can’t hurt him, but can hurt Romney and Ryan, since they need Florida to win.

Stephen, I’m hearing lots of talk about Ryan being a disastrous pick due to how old people view him on the subject of Medicare and Social Security — and lets face it, old people are hawks when it comes to protecting their interests and they tend to vote in droves.

Btw, many Republicans have expressed shock at the pick — and his own top political advisers and campaign staff are saying that they tried to get Mittens to not select Ryan. They considered him way too problematic which is being borne out judging by the recent batch of headlines in Florida papers. So it seems as though many conservatives had the impression that old folks were going to totally freak out with Ryan in the VP slot.

I do agree with you however, that Ryan should be taken seriously — in fact I always took the Palin threat seriously as well, despite her painfully obvious low IQ! Indeed I take anyone as crazily rightwing-extremist as Ryan (or Palin) very, very seriously.

It is a choice that does make perfect sense in many ways though. It’s clear that Romney is only comfortable among his own kind, and Ryan fits that mold precisely: like Romney, Ryan was born into and raised with enormous wealth. He has also politically proven himself to be the kind of guy only interested in looking after the needs and desires of his own privileged social class — so this would naturally appeal to Mitt in a strictly personal sense.

GOP memo: ‘Don’t say entitlement reform’

“Do not say: ‘entitlement reform,’ ‘privatization,’ ‘every option is on the table,’” the National Republican Congressional Committee said in an email memo. “Do say: ‘strengthen,’ ‘secure,’ ‘save,’ ‘preserve, ‘protect.’”

The email read like a warning shot, alerting Republicans that they would soon face a barrage of Medicare-themed attacks and telling them they needed to be ready for the scrutiny that was to come. The internal email, obtained by POLITICO, was a clear and immediate sign that Republicans knew Ryan could create trouble down ballot for GOP candidates in tight congressional races.

LOL! Oh that Mitt Romney — so incredibly out of touch with the struggles of average Americans! Yeah, let’s listen to the two filthy rich guys tell Americans how they’re going to give more tax cuts to the rich so they won’t create any jobs while calling themselves “Job Creators!” Oh, and while they’re at it, let’s listen as these two frat boys also threaten Granny and Gramps with the idea of scrapping their Medicare and giving them some “coupons” so that they’ll have to start shopping around for health insurance plans that are guaranteed to rip them off and provide them with less care than they’re getting currently, and yet make them pay out about $6000 to 7000 dollars! Awesome!
Oh, and let’s also listen as Romney’s new VP explains how job creation never comes from the government, even though his families business was built on government contracts! Fantastic!

But 36% now say they are more likely to vote for Romney with Ryan as his running mate. Twenty-nine percent (29%) say they are less likely to vote for the Republican, while just as many (30%) say the vice presidential selection has no impact on their vote.

In the key swing state of Ohio, the initial reaction to Ryan is also modestly positive.

Ohio is now listed as ‘even’ between Romney and Obama.

It’s nice to try and predict what will happen, but once we start getting actual data in, things will be much more clear.

Once again, we have to give thanks for the words of wisdom that have come from one of the many orifice’s of Adrienne. It doesn’t really matter which one she is talking from, the end result is the same.

And of course, let us not forget the dumbass statements of SD.

phx8 is in denial that the topic of discussion in America is the economy and jobs; which is Ryan’s field of expertise. But remember Ryan will be debating Biden, the king of stupid talk and gaffs.

rich is the only liberal so far, who has a grasp on the election.

Ohio is now listed as ‘even’ between Romney and Obama.

Poll: Obama Up 3 In Ohio, Leads By 10 Points Among Independents

Once again, we have to give thanks for the words of wisdom that have come from one of the many orifice’s of Adrienne. It doesn’t really matter which one she is talking from, the end result is the same.

And of course, let us not forget the dumbass statements of SD.

Frank go fuck yourself.

Such classy talk. Can’t come up with a genuine response, so she says go fornicate with yourself. What a beauty when it comes to classical crap.

SD and Adrienne both speak as though they are the devil incarnate.

Maranatha

Frank-
While I would caution her to restrain what she says, you’re not exactly placing number one in the class competition. You aren’t even bothering to deal with the particulars, you’re just insulting people.

Can you actually take me on, point for point, or is this what you’re trying to hide by just calling me a dumbass all the time? Adrienne’s response, in all candor, is the one I’ve bitten back again again on account of your insults.

I don’t use it, because I believe I defeat you well enough with my logic and my facts. Your response is a symptom of your inability to properly respond. You could be smart enough, knowledgeable enough, or whatever, but you’ve never been taught the discipline to convince people who aren’t true believers like you.

All Saintly Rush has taught you is how to be a belligerent jerk to folks outside the party.

tom humes-
And Frank was being classy? I would not speak that way to a lady about her orifices. I mean, seriously.

“Frank-
“But I have a question: Ryan is a 7 term Congressman from a solid Democratic district, one in which Obama won handily in 08, but one in which a TP conservative has won by a consistent 57%; how will this affect the outcome of the election in 2012?”

It’s comments like that that inspired my sobriquet. After 14 years of electing and reelecting a Tea Party conservative to Congress don’t you think it’s about time you call Rep. Ryan’s district solidly Republican? Or, would it make your head explode to consider a solidly Republican district was won handily by Mr. Obama in 2008?”

Posted by: RUSerious at August 13, 2012 5:32 PM

RUSerious; here’s a little info for you, since you made such ignorant statements without researching:

1. Only marginally Republican, with a Cook PVI of +2%.
2. Mostly Urban, 84% and includes some Milwaukee suburbs.
3. Heavily blue collar, over 27% (union)
4. Has voted for the Republican nominee for president in only one election since Ronald Reagan’s 1984 blow-out (2004).
5. Paul Ryan’s lowest vote total ever in his seven elections here was his first, when he won 57% of the vote. Since then, he has never won less than 63%.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2918183/posts?page=11

http://cookpolitical.com/sites/default/files/pvistate.pdf

Did you ever stop to think, the people in Ryan’s district actually like him and are not partisan? No, it didn’t…they must have voted for him because they are Republicans.

“I don’t use it, because I believe I defeat you well enough with my logic and my facts.”
HAHAHAHAHA

Stephen, you have never let “logic or facts” get in the way of a good discourse of liberal talking points.

Thanks for the laugh.

By the way, I have never read anything written by Adrienne that would convince me she’s a lady. But I guess the shoe is on the other foot when talking about liberal women; I have read yours and you cohort’s comments about conservative women and they never convinced me of you gentlemanliness. As usual, liberal hypocrisy and double standards.

tom humes:

Such classy talk.

Fuck you too, tom humes. You’re just as big a troll as Frank the Crank.

Stephen:

While I would caution her to restrain what she says

Tell me why I should bother to do that Stephen? This site is a tragic and obviously unloved little internet backwater at this point. It seems to have been bought by someone who doesn’t care at all about what content appears, or any of the insane teabagger trolling, but simply uses this site for the purposes of selling “cheap designer handbags” and other spam.

Adrienne’s response, in all candor, is the one I’ve bitten back again again on account of your insults.

I don’t use it, because I believe I defeat you well enough with my logic and my facts.

Why bother to bite your tongue? It’s a fact that you can’t win with people like Frank the Crank — nor with most of the other brain-dead zombies who haunt in this site. They aren’t interested in any kind of facts or logic — they’re interested in attacking and insulting people on the left and they have no respect for anyone but people just like themselves. So honestly, what have you got to lose by telling them what you actually think?
At this point I only come here to look at what people on the left who I’ve been reading for years on end (such as yourself) are saying, and to share some things I’ve read that I think the lefties might find interesting. There’s not much real debating going on at this point. Even those on the right who used to try to have real discussions have taken to simply lying all the damn time, too. They clearly don’t care either, and why should they? This site has been taken over by the most idiotic of rightwing trolls.
The way I see it, there’s only two choices left for people who come here who are being constantly insulted for sport — either try to totally ignore it, or insult them back. You can try to ignore being called a dumbass for the millionth time it if you want to, but I’ve decided to insult back because I honestly don’t care at all at this point.

Frank the Crank:

By the way, I have never read anything written by Adrienne that would convince me she’s a lady.

I’m always a lady to people who treat me like a lady. And I’m also capable of tearing clearly demented and mannerless losers like yourself a brand new asshole since you’re always treating anyone who disagrees with your ignorant and narrow-minded view of politics like total garbage.

I have read yours and you cohort’s comments about conservative women and they never convinced me of you gentlemanliness.

Haha! What a joke. As if you care about being a gentleman, or treating anyone standing on the left that way. Face it, you’re a troll. The pathetic fact is you only come here to unload contempt upon people on the left. But now, whenever I see that trolling you’re going to be treated in kind, you utterly worthless sack of shit.

Adrinne

“Sack of shit”

I have always liked that phrase. I thought it was endemic to my native Wisconsin, as it is an almost direct translation from German and Scandinavian languages. I recall that in Norwegian Bokmål the word is drittsekk.

Usually we used sack of shit with lazy as an adjective. A sack of shit is not worthless, strictly speaking, as manure is valuable on farms.

We had a friend we used to call “sack” because he was a lazy sack of shit. He actually came to take pride in the appellation, at least after we dropped the “of shit” part.

Adrienne-
I came her to get away from flame wars, which largely consisted of me and the other guy throwing increasingly irate and nasty insults each other’s way. My experience with that instilled in me a sense of just how fricking futile such flame wars are.

I have a purpose, and that is to persuade what readers do show up here that the position I take is the better one. What purpose does my restraint serve? Well, the last thing most people are going to acknowledge is an insult.

And I see more than two choices. I don’t ignore it. But I don’t stop trying to nail them on the facts, either to force concession, or to force them to further squirm, go further into obvious error and stubborn unwillingness to admit fault in response to my argument.

I want people to see that the insults and curse-outs, the denigration and demonization are all they have, and that the better alternative, mine, can serve them in a way that the divisive behavior of folks like Frank and tom humes will never be able to help them.

Frank and tom humes can’t admit the problems within their party or their movement for fear of people like us taking advantage of these weaknesses and winning. They can’t admit that their predictions went awry, or that people don’t love the right like they feel the right deserves to be loved.

Their responses to us, because of this unreasonability, are very limited. They can’t compromise, concede or cooperate.

They’re losing, old men or at least old guard, and this world won’t be theirs in a few short decades, it will belong to my generation. They cause all this pain and suffering here because they know they have a short time, at least in the back of their minds.

Frank-
You come to a lot of conclusions, but offer few premises in support of them. I will be genuinely threatened by you when you demonstrate a good command of the facts, and even then, I will respond to that by researching your points, and coming back with my best reponse.

I dealt with people earlier in my life who caused me real psychological pain and suffering, and since then, I’ve had a stubborn willingness to confront and call out people like you. I will outlast you. I’ve outlasted many other people who thought they could browbeat me down. It doesn’t work. In fact, all your approach does is pull the primary trigger on my most unreachably stubborn side.

In short, you can never win this, not this way. If you were subtle, you could seek other avenues, but you’re not. You are predictably means-spirited and lacking in empathy, like Cartman on South Park.

The best you can do with an argument is not lose.

You failed even before you got here.

Stephen

You often use “your people” in such a way that is taken, even if not meant, as an insult. Adrienne swears at people. She has even been vulgar with me, the most polite of all posters.

I do regret some of the loss of civility here and I don’t appreciate it when people call you names. But it is not a one way street. Beyond that, given the long term nature of commentators here, we would expect some personalization. If not for that, it would be much just reading a poorly written newspaper.

I honestly find it interesting that some people (I have to say you included) can have some of the ideas you write about. It is useful to remember that such people and ideas exist. Most of the people I know and work with are liberals politically. But they tend to be practical in the way I don’t see with people like you and Adrienne. I suppose you might call them “sell outs.” My own habit it to work with anybody who will work with me on the things we have common interests and let the rest just be commentary. I suppose that is also “selling out.” I have to point out, however, that it is the people who have sold out who make the world work.

So I come here to see some of the antics that I don’t get in my more subdued functional world. I don’t find it useful when we get into those pissing contests, but if we wrote here too much like we work in reality, it would not be useful at all.

C&J-
It’s never a one way street. Requiring that for there to be any moral censure is problematic at best, because then either side can escalate, and simply blame the other side for it.

Romney talked about the Obama campaign being driven by hate for example. But he’s repeatedly shown great dishonesty about Obama’s record, and his party has demonstrated a level of intolerance and vilification that makes the whole mess with Clinton pale by comparison.

So, Democrats like myself have to sit hear and get hit all day long by people defaming us as traitors, subversives and degenerates. Not simply, “you’re wrong”, but people who call folks dumbasses, tell women they’re pulling things out of their orifices, but then call them on saying “**** you” back when they’re through. You listen to Rush, Beck, Hannity, and you imagine what kind of emotional response people get, especially as folks actually come to believe that BS. Put yourself in that position, and then ask yourself why Liberals have gotten harsher, more oppositional in their rhetoric.

And really, the GOP’s abstracted itself away from basing things on substance. It doesn’t heed the sciences anymore, it doesn’t heed the results of its legislation, it doesn’t heed warnings from economists, or evidence from the media. The party’s been shoved into a media feedback loop which leaves it assuming that nothing the other side’s done has worked (even when it has), that all the policies that have failed could succeed if given the perfect chance to do so, and that any evidence to the contrary is a product of a conspiracy in the media to deceive them. Truth is, it’s hard to get through to Conservatives and Republicans on a reasonable basis these days, with all lines of normal communication rejected.

The Republican Party is in a crisis it will not recover from until it makes its peace with the rest of the country, and opens itself back up. The Democrats did this long ago. It’s the Republican’s turn to get back in touch with reality.

Ohio is now listed as ‘even’ between Romney and Obama.

Poll: Obama Up 3 In Ohio, Leads By 10 Points Among Independents

From your link:

The latest release from Democratic-leaning Public Policy Polling (PPP) shows

When Talkingpointsmemo.com feels the need to point out the political leanings of the polling company, that is telling…

She has even been vulgar with me, the most polite of all posters.

LOL! A comment of typically over-inflated self-esteem. You think it’s “most polite” to make constant boasts about your intellect, life story and personal circumstances, and act as though they are all that truly matter — that indeed they must be viewed as the universal reality and yardstick for every other person in America? I don’t consider that polite. You think it’s “most polite” to constantly discredit and disparage the intellect of people on the left simply because they don’t agree with your rightwing political viewpoints? I don’t consider that polite. You think it’s “most polite” to talk about how honest you are while frequently telling bold faced lies that people on the left can see right through — and when you’re called out on them, insist you’re telling the truth and act highly offended? I don’t consider that “most polite.”
Sometimes vulgarity becomes the obvious response — and believe me, an outraged, highly offended reaction is more than expected.

When Talkingpointsmemo.com feels the need to point out the political leanings of the polling company, that is telling…

Absolutely — telling in the sense that TPM is interested in telling their readers the full truth about that poll. Unlike rightwing websites who are constantly quoting Fox or Rasmussen or Wall Street Journal polls without ever informing their readers that those are heavily Republican-leaning pollsters.

I’m all for providing links to websites who make it their business to get at the truth. I can’t stand when people try to act as though they’re in full command of all available knowledge by claiming all kinds of things without ever attempting to provide a single shred of proof.

Stephen, good reply to Jack.
Really couldn’t have said it better myself — and I’m glad you did.

What about Gallup? They have Romney over Obama +2%

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150743/Obama-Romney.aspx

Is every single polling site that has numbers you don’t like ‘right leaning’?

http://rossputin.com/blog/index.php/gallup-s-bias-continues

Gallup intentionally, even if not persistently, analyzes its poll results and titles its press releases in a way designed to bias readers’ interpretations of the data against Republicans and for Barack Obama.

Yes, what about Gallup? And what about many others? I think Ohio is very much in play. That was the point of giving that link that puts him up by three.

Here’s the latest as listed by TPM:

State: Ohio. Recent polls and contests in Ohio.

“Romney talked about the Obama campaign being driven by hate for example.”

Yes Stephen, like the VP Biden telling black folk yesterday that republicans want to put them back in chains. Oh, I’m sorry…that’s not hate speech is it?

C&J, I like the term “sack of shit” too, in fact we have a saying where I come from that will fit Stephen perfectly, “he’s so full of shit, his eyes are brown”.

Re/Adrienne, We just have to over look her ladylike language; she never did quite get the hang of the King’s English.

“The Republican Party is in a crisis it will not recover from until it makes its peace with the rest of the country, and opens itself back up. The Democrats did this long ago. It’s the Republican’s turn to get back in touch with reality.”

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 15, 2012 8:51 AM

Daugherty thinks “getting in touch with reality” and “making peace with the rest of the country” means caving into the leadership of the liberal democrats. Sorry Stephen, but it’s not the Republican Party in crisis; I believe it’s the dems who are losing it, and SD I am seriously concerned about your mental state; if the Republicans win as I expect them to do in November, you are going to face a serious crisis.

Romney has seen the largest gain in Ohio, a state we have seen bounce between the campaigns over the last few months. Today, the GOP ticket leads by 2 points (46% to 44%), compared to July when President Obama led the state 48% to 45%. Romney also gained ground in Virginia – today, he and Paul Ryan hold a 3-point advantage in the race (48% to 45%), while Romney trailed by 2 points in July.

http://www.purplestrategies.com/wp-content/uploads/PurplePoll_Aug15_Final.pdf

Adrienne

I understand you love the vulgarity. Gives you a feeling of power, I suppose. I am reminded of words of the old Cole Porter song, “Good authors, too, who once knew better words Now use only four-letter words writing prose … anything goes.

I agree with your praise of Stephen. Indeed you could not have said it better yourself. I am not as smart as you, however, so I didn’t really understand what he was trying to say. In response to a note about how the two of you are attacked and attack others he attacked the Republican party, but if it makes sense to the two of you it must be right.

Frank-
You’re constantly talking about my mental state. That seems to be your latest effort at distracting people. No, you don’t have to be just like all the liberal democrats. You seem to have completely forgotten about a whole range of policy possibilities that lie even just between you and the average centrist, much less you, and the average Liberal Democrat.

Your party has been so mindlessly shoved to the right that it’s forgotten its own capacity to be moderate.

Rhinehold-
Good job relying on just one polling outfit. At least it’s not something so obvious as Rasmussen. Is that the outfit that Alex Castellanos is associated with?

C&J-
The long and the short of the message is that Republicans are making the mistake of assuming that winning the inside baseball political conflict within will win them the external fight for voters.

As far as Frank goes, Frank would have been gone a long time ago under more strict moderation, and his posts have been no less vulgar than Adrienne’s, and quite a bit more viciously personal. While I would advise Adrienne to tone down her language and her counterattacks on Frank, so that she doesn’t lose her right to comment when and if moderation does return in this fashion, I have not seen you advise Frank to tone down his act.

It’s kind of a microcosmic reflection, in my view, of the way folks in the GOP, the more traditional, moderate Republicans, have allowed the fringes to get more strident, on account of their ability to to hypercharge turnout with a newer, less constrained movement in the party.

The price of that, though, is that demand for such hardline policy is not so great outside of the party. I think your people are beginning to realize that, and this is where the diversionary tactic of claiming Obama’s stealing from Medicare, rather than cutting its costs comes from. You have to say that, or else you get the full impact on voters of the raw unpopularity of Ryan’s plan.

Good job relying on just one polling outfit.

I don’t, I usually START polling information from going to realclearpolitics.com, which pulls in several different polling firms and then averages them. I think go to the specific outfits and look at their methods, specifically who is doing likely voters vs registered voters.

Any time you want actually discuss the content of the polls instead of trying to use fallacies to dismiss the ones you don’t like, let me know.

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