Democrats & Liberals Archives

I have never heard such mumbo-jumbo in my life. You guys on the left would go to any lengths to make it look like the economy is looking better under Obama. Can we all say, “net job loss”. Adam Ducker, I heard a liberal Democrat, this morning on Fox News, say the EXACT same talking points as you just quoted. Exactly the same…

At some point, you have to face the reality that the economy is bad and getting worse.

Frank: “I have never heard such mumbo-jumbo in my life.”

Yes, empirical reality to a conservative like yourself most certainly might sound like mumbo-jumbo. I’m not surprised.

“Can we all say, ‘net job loss’.”

Sure, but why? What’s the point?

“At some point, you have to face the reality that the economy is bad and getting worse.”

No, I don’t have to face up to something that is unsupported by actual reality. Why on earth would you want me to do such a thing? I agree the economy is not strong. But is it bad? Is it getting worse? No, it’s just not.

“I heard a liberal Democrat, this morning on Fox News, say the EXACT same talking points as you just quoted.”

Name one thing I said that is a talking point. Every thing I said is based on an actual verifiable economic measurement. I don’t present the economy as any better than it is. I’m not overly optimistic about it or anything. But yes…mumbo-jumbo, you say. Nice.

Adam,
Good commentary. I look forward to your articles each month. I remain cautiously optimistic about the economy. I’ve been heavily invested in the stock market, and very richly rewarded for it.

Frank,
If you will recall, you advised me to sell stock because the market was so weak. You were wrong. Real life, completely, totally wrong. You couldn’t be more wrong. I told you so. This is not a theoretical discussion. You are flat wrong. The stock market has boomed. This is a fact. That made a huge difference in my life. The DJIA is now over 13,000. This is fact. Not mumbo-jumbo. Fact.

The domestic economy continues to grow. Currently, it is growing at a rate of 1.5%. Growing. Not shrinking. Growing. That is fact.

The housing market seems to have turned the corner. But it’s a long way from this bottom back to where we were before conservatives torched the economy, literally years of recovery.

If one wants to be pessimistic about the long term, consider the bond market. Interest rates remain incredibly low; in fact, after adjusting for inflation (the TED spread), big investors- I’m talking governments- are actually paying the federal government to park their money in the safety of bonds, of US debt.

What does this tell you?

In the long run… the big money, the conservative money, the money that seeks safety above all else, that group projects continued low growth and a fear of deflation. Not inflation. Deflation.

The GOP has been playing a dangerous game. Republicans and conservatives and Tea Partiers- basically the same thing- have been rooting against the economy and the well-being of the country, in order to regain power and enrich their backers.

I am so, so, so glad you have been so wrong.

Next time, bet on America.

phx8, you silly boy; you know as well as I that the stock market does not reflect the economy of the country.

1.5%…hmmm…is that higher or lower than the last quarter?

Frank: “Can we all say, ‘net job loss’.” … “1.5%…hmmm…is that higher or lower than the last quarter?”

And again, I wonder what your point is. Please enlighten us. GDP goes up and down, specially in the fragile state of our economy. But I agree with Phx8. You have to bet against America because you can’t admit that we might be getting slowly better under Obama’s leadership. When your side called the man a failure on Day 1 it meant from Day 2 onward you would have to side against reality and against basic fact to maintain your view.

The list of economic indicators that are better now than when Obama took office is as long as my arm. But that can’t be true, can it? Obama is a failure! The economy is getting worse, not better! Worse! GDP is down 1/2% this quarter! The economy has only added back 4 million jobs under Obama, not 4.3 million! He’s failed!

Frank: Here’s an interesting graph for you and others to see:

http://advisorperspectives.com/dshort/charts/indicators/Big-Four-Indicators-Since-2009-Trough.gif

It charts the so-called “Big Four Indicators” of Industrial Production, Real Income, Employment, Real Sales, and an average of the four.

Notice anything? Only Real Sales is down. The rest are up. The average is an upward trajectory. This economy is slowly improving. So you can point out that GDP is slightly down, that job growth is not where we’d like, and any number of things you think prove the economy is swirling down the toilet. You just can’t change the basic reality that key indicators show a slow but upward expansion of the US economy.

If Obama wins in November and the economic recovery speeds in 2013 then I expect your side to switch from suggesting Obama failed to improve the American economy to instead take the stance that Obama failed to destroy America like he’d wanted all along. This Kenyan, Muslim, Socialist, Dictator who is in over his head just couldn’t get the job done and bring the American Dream to it’s knees!

More here: http://advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Big-Four-Economic-Indicators.php

Adam,
Good links to a useful site. I like those Big Four Economic Indicators. The other graphs also put the situation into perspective.

It’s interesting to reflect on the perception of events after 2008, the emotions, the sheer fear and uncertainty, compared with today and the attempts by conservatives to rewrite those events. The graphs tell the economic story, but as time passes, it becomes more and more difficult to show the emotional impact of that economic crash. We didn’t know how it would turn out. A credit crunch was new and very scary territory, and there were only a few examples among smaller economies to provide any guidance.

In general, Obama and his administration did a good job. The graphs tell the story quite eloquently. Of course, my hindsight is excellent, and I wish some things had been done differently. But Obama played it safe. He and his people literally rescued the American economy. It will be years, and maybe even decades, before people can look back at this period without partisan blinders and assess what happened. I’m confident Obama will be seen very, very positively.

Meanwhile, conservatives are desperately trying to rewrite recent events, especially re the saving of the auto industry. They pretend there was no credit crunch… No problems with deregulation, lack of financial oversight, shadow banking, financial organizations ‘too big to fail.’ Everyone knows what needs to be done, but the banks are so big, it’s hard to address the problem, especially in these days of Citizens United, the decline of democracy, and the final ascendance of plutocracy. If Obama wins re-elections- and I think he will- I hope he’ll address these problems, preferably by filling SCOTUS seats with judges friendly towards democracy.

j2t2

There was a credit crunch and government - as the creator of the money supply - has a legitimate function in improving liquidity. It failed to do that in 1929 with disastrous results. We did better in 2008.

But we did not need the attempt to manage the economy brought on by the Obama folks, nor did we need the class rhetoric he employs.

The banking system was heavily regulated in 2008. The problem is that the regulations set up to solve earlier problems were n8ot appropriate for the new ones. Adding additional rules to cope with the specific problems of 2008 adds to complexity and increased chances of failure. We have to recognize that nobody can truly understand the financial system in all its complexity and that those least likely even to get parts of it right are political leaders. Rather than regulate in detail, we should ensure that the parts are not too closely connected so that if one part fails, as some inevitably will do, the system does not go into general convulsions. We then have to be willing to let some parts of the system fail and be replaced by better operators.

The orderly collapse of GM and Chrysler would not have spelled an end to the auto industry in America. Rather, work would have flowed to better run operations, mostly still in America. I understand that this is a politically untenable argument that can be easily demagogued, but it has the virtue of being true.

A firm like Ford, which didn’t need to be bailed out, was treated to government supported competition, which saved GM and Chrysler from their bad decisions.

So did Obama “rescue” the economy. Yes and no. As many here point out, much of the bailout started with Bush and it is likely that any president, even the great Ronald Reagan, would have been somewhat activists in this kind of crisis. But Obama brought along too much other baggage. Had he behaved prudently, he would have done enough to create liquidity and then stop. Most of the stimulus did nothing much or, like the cash for clunkers, merely moved economic activity to 2009/10. In other words, made things a little better in the early times at the expense of the future, i.e. now.

I used to argue a lot with Marxists, who would attribute all sorts of insights to that old fart. But if you look closer, you see that Marx was both original and a big user of ideas of others. In the end, what was original in Marx was not good and what was good was not original. In other words, you did not need to have the whole rotten system to get the good parts.

I think the same goes for Obama. We could have had the benefits w/o all the manure that came along.

C&J,
You write: “The banking system was heavily regulated in 2008. The problem is that the regulations set up to solve earlier problems were n8ot appropriate for the new ones.”

The regulations set up to solve earlier problems- Glass Steagall, to create firewalls between the three major areas of the financial sector, and commodity regulations- were not merely inappropriate; they did not exist. Glass Steagall was repealed. The Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2001 prohibited government oversight of the financial vehicles created by the financial sector.

It was not a question of regulations causing complexity. The trading and hedging and so on of the mortgage derivatives occurred without any oversight whatsoever. Subprime mortgages were packaged into tranches and labeled AAA, then sold here and abroad, especially to countries such as Germany. Mortgage derivatives were built upon these mortgages, and money in sums that were orders of magnitude larger traded without oversight. It was shadow banking.

The existing regulations did not increase chances of failure. Failure happened on a scale that is mind boggling. With the exception of Goldman Sachs- the largest investment bank, formerly run by Paulson at Treasury- with that exception, every major investment bank failed. A huge portion of the financial sector collapsed. Bear Stearns, Lehman, Merrill Lynch… All gone. The government intervened and saved Merrill by rolling it into a surviving commercial bank. WAMU failed. Iceland went boom.

German regulations prevented Deutschbank from engaging in risky trading in mortgage derivatives in Germany. Deutschbank proceeded to do it in the US, which was free from such regulations.

Deutschbank had to be bailed out by American taxpayers.

You write: “The orderly collapse of GM and Chrysler would not have spelled an end to the auto industry in America.”

Orderly collapse was not an option. That was the whole problem. Because of the credit crunch, market crash, and collapse of financial sector, there were no buyers for GM and Chrysler. At the time, we were staring at a horrifying prospect of a loss of at least 500,000 jobs, and possibly as many as three million, and this at a time when the economoy was already hemmorhaging hundreds of thousands of jobs per month.

Would the loss of GM and Chrysler spelled the end of the American auto industry? Thankfully, we won’t have to find out the hard way. It would have certainly spelled catastrophe for MI, OH, IA, and IL. Perhaps Ford would have survived, but with the economy plummeted into even deeper recession and even depression, consumer demand for autos would have been non-existent for a long time. The capital requirements to start a new auto manufacturer would have been daunting, to say the least, and any jobs would have been low paying hourly jobs- the conservative dream- instead of high paying union ones.

Did Bush deserve some of the credit? Yes. Same for Paulson and other people in that administration. But they take the lion’s share of blame, too, so no one will be building any statures with their names on it anytime soon.

I don’t think Obama’s decision making was perfect, not by any means. He & Geithner & Summers and others, including the Democrats in Congress, faced a crisis. They had to act quickly. They had to make a lot of very big decisions very fast, without the benefit of road map.

They did well. They saved the country from economic depression. Since then, we’ve seen a couple of years of economic growth. We’ve also seen a couple of years of job creation in the private sector. Real estate seems to be bottoming out. Is it a perfect performance? No. Is there room for criticism and improvement? Sure.

Would going back to the policies which created this situation in the first place, the policies advocated by conservatives and Republicans and Romney, be a good idea?

Absolutely not.

“Most of the stimulus did nothing much or, like the cash for clunkers, merely moved economic activity to 2009/10.” C&J

Exactly, and Obama was shooting craps; he was trying to improve things in the short and hoping the economy would turn in his favor in the long. The problem is, Obama and hs government agencies have done nothing to help business; in fact his policies, the DOE, the EPA, and the DOJ have done all they can to disrupt business.

I am no politician, but if I were president, I would have opened up as much energy production as possible. ND is experiencing a booming economy, as the result of fracking for oil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEi0b7CFDHI

Obama has no claim on the success of ND. Not only has Obama not tried to create these jobs; he has the appearance of trying to block the jobs.

WV has always been a solid Democrat state, but their natural resource is coal; and what does Obama do…why he shuts down the use of coal, closes the mines, and is causing the shutdown of dozens of coal fired power plants. WV is becoming a red state, thanks to the Democrats.

I would like to know whose side Obama is on; it’s certainly not on the side of the United States.

BIF,
Fact: West Virginia vote for Bush in 2000 (52%), again in 2004 (56%), and by the same margin for McCain in 2008. Polls show Romney with a commanding lead in WV for the upcoming election. So, you are wrong. Dead wrong. Factually wrong. WV has not “always been a solid Democrat state,” nor is it “becoming a red state.” You are lying. You are making things up on the fly. Don’t do that. Not only is it dishonest, it’s easily proven to be dishonest, and it discredits an entire point of view… and maybe that’s a good thing.

Cash for Clunkers was so successful that, after the first billion dollars, Congress had to authorize an additional two billion because of high demand. The program provided stimulus at the same time it encouraged the purchase of cleaner, more fuel-efficient vehicles. One study suggested the benefits outweigh the costs, while another said just the opposite. In any case, Cash for Clunker provided a much needed stimulus at a time when the country needed it, and it met with an overwhelming demand from both consumers and dealers.

Phx8: “Cash for Clunkers was so successful that, after the first billion dollars, Congress had to authorize an additional two billion because of high demand.”

Also notice that light vehicle sales has an upward trend despite what we were told would happen with C4C. If it moved economic activity the effect didn’t last but a few quarters. Of course some critics still claim dealers are buying these cars and not selling them. Man, I’d love to know where these dealers are keeping all these millions of unsold vehicles.

Adam,
It all seems like part of a weird Tea Party mentality regarding Obama: everything he does is wrong, and if anything goes well, then he is not responsible. If Obama says black, they will say white. So to speak.

Obama is the democratically elected president of the United States. He won by several million votes. This is the president who got Bin Laden, saved the auto industry, prevented another Great Depression, and reformed health care. Yet conservatives routinely come out with gems this: “I would like to know whose side Obama is on; it’s certainly not on the side of the United States.”

I can understand disagreeing. I can understand it when reasonable people take different sides on controversial issues. But when venemous people spout that kind of evil… I guess we’ll just have to hope such people never obtain power.

Phx8 said:

“BIF,
Fact: West Virginia vote for Bush in 2000 (52%), again in 2004 (56%), and by the same margin for McCain in 2008. Polls show Romney with a commanding lead in WV for the upcoming election. So, you are wrong. Dead wrong. Factually wrong. WV has not “always been a solid Democrat state,” nor is it “becoming a red state.” You are lying. You are making things up on the fly. Don’t do that. Not only is it dishonest, it’s easily proven to be dishonest, and it discredits an entire point of view… and maybe that’s a good thing.”

Phx8, you are a very angry person and you are wrong. Here is some easily found facts:

Since 1933 there have only been 4 republican governors elected, that’s a total of 20 years of Republicans out of 80 years. Meaning 60 years of Democrat governors and Democrats leading by 75%.

Since 1933, of the two state Senators, there have been a total of 11 years where Republicans served, only 3 Republican US Senators were elected. Of the 160 years of serving Senators, 149 years were Democrat; that’s about 93% of Senatorial positions held by Democrats.

West Virginia has 34 state Senators; 28 Democrat and 6 Republican. So 82% of the State Senators are Democrat.

Since 1972, 10 election cycles, 5 of the elections went for Democrats and 5 for Republicans.

1972: Nixon
1976 & 1980: Carter
1984: Reagan
1988: Bush I
1992 & 1996: Clinton
2000 & 2003: Bush II
2008: McCain

http://electoralmap.net/PastElections/past_elections.php?year=1980

The Democrats in WV voted for a Republican for the past 3 cycles because of gun control. Clinton told Al Gore, after he lost in 2000, that he lost because of the NRA and gun control.

But there can be no doubt, WV has been a predominantly Democrat state for the past 80 years. I stand behind my original claim, you called me a liar, and you offered no proof. You only offered your opinion and opinions are like a-holes; everyone has one.

I did not make the cash for clunkers comment; it came from C&J. But I will comment on this simply because I live in a retirement community in Florida and know firsthand of the following article:

“We thought cash for clunkers was the ultimate waste of taxpayer money, but as usual we were too optimistic. Thanks to the federal tax credit to buy high-mileage cars that was part of President Obama’s stimulus plan, Uncle Sam is now paying Americans to buy that great necessity of modern life, the golf cart.

The federal credit provides from $4,200 to $5,500 for the purchase of an electric vehicle, and when it is combined with similar incentive plans in many states the tax credits can pay for nearly the entire cost of a golf cart. Even in states that don’t have their own tax rebate plans, the federal credit is generous enough to pay for half or even two-thirds of the average sticker price of a cart, which is typically in the range of $8,000 to $10,000. “The purchase of some models could be absolutely free,” Roger Gaddis of Ada Electric Cars in Oklahoma said earlier this year. “Is that about the coolest thing you’ve ever heard?”

The golf-cart boom has followed an IRS ruling that golf carts qualify for the electric-car credit as long as they are also road worthy. These qualifying golf carts are essentially the same as normal golf carts save for adding some safety features, such as side and rearview mirrors and three-point seat belts. They typically can go 15 to 25 miles per hour.

In South Carolina, sales of these carts have been soaring as dealerships alert customers to Uncle Sam’s giveaway. “The Golf Cart Man” in the Villages of Lady Lake, Florida is running a banner online ad that declares: “GET A FREE GOLF CART. Or make $2,000 doing absolutely nothing!”

Golf Cart Man is referring to his offer in which you can buy the cart for $8,000, get a $5,300 tax credit off your 2009 income tax, lease it back for $100 a month for 27 months, at which point Golf Cart Man will buy back the cart for $2,000. “This means you own a free Golf Cart or made $2,000 cash doing absolutely nothing!!!” You can’t blame a guy for exploiting loopholes that Congress offers.

The IRS has also ruled that there’s no limit to how many electric cars an individual can buy, so some enterprising profiteers are stocking up on multiple carts while the federal credit lasts, in order to resell them at a profit later. We should note that some states, such as Oklahoma, have caught on to the giveaway and are debating whether to cancel or limit their state credits. But in Congress they’re still on the driving range.

This golf-cart fiasco perfectly illustrates tax policy in the age of Obama, when politicians dole out credits and loopholes for everything from plug-in cars to fuel efficient appliances, home insulation and vitamins. Democrats then insist that to pay for these absurdities they have no choice but to raise tax rates on other things—like work and investment—that aren’t politically in vogue. If this keeps up, it’ll soon make more sense to retire and play golf than work for living.”

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704107204574473724099542430.html

phx8, I live in the Villages, and I would like to thank you personally for the new electric golf cart that is street legal, and I got it for free.

Supposedly 690,000 cars were sold, as the result of the cash for clunkers. I wonder how many were golf carts?

But here is some interesting numbers; GM sold 1,284,261 vehicles in 2008 and in 2009, when we had Obama’s cash for clunkers, GM’s sales dropped 33% from 2008. I sure that Chrysler’s number were similar; so of the 690,000 vehicles, less the golf carts, how many were foreign?

Cash for clunkers was a failure.

“Adam,
It all seems like part of a weird Tea Party mentality regarding Obama: everything he does is wrong, and if anything goes well, then he is not responsible. If Obama says black, they will say white. So to speak.

Obama is the democratically elected president of the United States. He won by several million votes. This is the president who got Bin Laden, saved the auto industry, prevented another Great Depression, and reformed health care. Yet conservatives routinely come out with gems this: “I would like to know whose side Obama is on; it’s certainly not on the side of the United States.”

Posted by: phx8 at August 5, 2012 9:37 PM

So phx8, can we count on your complete support of President Romney after inauguration day in Jan. 2013? Or are you going to be like those evil Tea Partiers?

BIF,
The history of WV does not reflect the fact that it became a red state before Obama ever came to office. Currently, two of three Representatives are Republicans, and although both Senators- Rockefeller & Manchin- are Democrats, Manchin is conservative.

Frank,
Would I support Romney if he won? Yes. I would be part of the loyal opposition.

But the implications of a Romney victory are disturbing. A rich man who will say almost anything on any given day would be literally buying the presidency. And a lot of the financial background that politicians routinely reveal to the public as part of the vetting process are being concealed by Romney- tax returns, statements about the overseas accounts, and so on. That’s not good. There’s still a chance he’ll do the right thing and make that information public, so let’s see what happens.

Would you really be happy with a Romney presidency? Do you really, really believe Romney shares anything in common with the Tea Party? He’s changed his stand on virtually every major issue in order to advance his own political fortunes. His foreign advisors are NeoCons. Nine of those advisors signed the original PNAC, and eight out of the nine favor bombing Iran. Are you ready for that? On his recent visit to Israel, Romney came out foursquare on the side of Netanyahu & the Israeli right wingers, and against the Palestinians, including some gratuitous, thoughtless, and totally unnecessary insults to the Palestinians. You saw what happened during the Bush administration. Are you ready for a replay of that under a Romney administration?

Phx8 said:

“BIF,
The history of WV does not reflect the fact that it became a red state before Obama ever came to office.”

No, it was not a red state before Obama; I gave you the stats. For the past 80 years WV has voted predominantly Democrat. The presidential elections were split 50/50; what beat Kerry, Gore, and Obama, was their anti-gun stand

“Currently, two of three Representatives are Republicans”

They only have 3 districts, but the Democrats have controlled the state house delegates ever since 1930, by 100%.

“and although both Senators- Rockefeller & Manchin- are Democrats, Manchin is conservative.”

I love you guys on the left. We are talking about a historical Democrat state, and to win the argument, you throw a Democrat under the bus and call him a Republican.

“Frank,
Would I support Romney if he won? Yes. I would be part of the loyal opposition.”

I’m sure you would, so let the attacks begin:

“But the implications of a Romney victory are disturbing. A rich man who will say almost anything on any given day would be literally buying the presidency. And a lot of the financial background that politicians routinely reveal to the public as part of the vetting process are being concealed by Romney- tax returns, statements about the overseas accounts, and so on. That’s not good. There’s still a chance he’ll do the right thing and make that information public, so let’s see what happens.”

So, he hasn’t been elected yet, but he’s a rich son-of-a-bitch, who is buying the election, with all his money he stole from the poor people by shipping jobs overseas, and even though he has given the required paperwork, he is hiding something, and on top of that, he may have money in foreign bank accounts? Thanks phx8 for your support; but I have a tendency to think you and the rest of the left would create new meaning to personal vicious attacks of the president.

But let’s not let the unsubstantiated attacks end there; let’s make up some more. Let’s quote some more liberal talking points:

“Would you really be happy with a Romney presidency? Do you really, really believe Romney shares anything in common with the Tea Party? He’s changed his stand on virtually every major issue in order to advance his own political fortunes. His foreign advisors are NeoCons. Nine of those advisors signed the original PNAC, and eight out of the nine favor bombing Iran. Are you ready for that? On his recent visit to Israel, Romney came out foursquare on the side of Netanyahu & the Israeli right wingers, and against the Palestinians, including some gratuitous, thoughtless, and totally unnecessary insults to the Palestinians. You saw what happened during the Bush administration. Are you ready for a replay of that under a Romney administration?”
Posted by: phx8 at August 5, 2012 11:28 PM

You guys are real jewels; while in the process of complaining about what the right says about Obama, you have managed to do even worse and Romney is not even elected yet. But we are supposed to believe you wouldn’t do the same. Hey, I listened to the bullshit attacks on Bush from you and your friends for 8 years and you are upset that the right would speak evil of Obama, yeah right.

Re/a Romney presidency; let me explain something to you. I would vote for a baboon if he was running against Obama. The baboon would stand less chance of ruining the country.

“Would I support Romney if he won? Yes. I would be part of the loyal opposition.”

I guess it depends what supporting with “loyal opposition” means.

Reagan won by a landslide, and broke the back of the Soviet Union, how did you support him?

Frank,
While Reagan was president I served in the USAF as a B-52 Radar Navigator- that is, bombardier- in SAC. I spent a lot of time on nuclear alert. When it came to breaking the back of the Soviet Union, I was on the front line.

BIF,
Are you OK with Romney not releasing tax returns? I think it’s a problem. We already know he’s extremely rich. That’s not news. We already know he used accounts in Switzerland and the Caymans to avoid taxes. That’s not news either. What could there be in those returns that makes it so bad, he won’t release them? There’s nothing illegal about what he is doing, but no one owes him the presidency. He needs to come clean, put up with a few days of what will presumably be negative press, and move on.

For the coming week I will be not be around much… but will read & comment if able.

phx8, you are simply repeating the talking points of sleaze ball Harry Reid. I don’t care about Romney’s tax returns. He has met the requirements of the law of discloser and as far as the “already know” his overseas accounts, who cares? The people crying the loudest: Wasserman Shultz and Harry Reid have failed to release their own tax returns, and don’t give me the crap about Romney running for president. As long as he meets the requirements of the law, I am satisfied. Unlike you, I am not looking for a non-existent smoking gun. What the left is doing, and can be plainly seen, is to try to change the subject from unemployment and a failing economy.

Phx8, I see you have managed to morph the topic of the subject away from your claim that WV is a Democrat state to talking about Romney’s bank accounts. I am assuming, due to the absence of a rebuttal on WV, that you are conceding WV has at least an 80 year history of voting Democrat. I guess the best thing to do when losing an argument, is to change the subject. Kind of like what Obama and his people are doing with the economy and Romney’s finances.

“There’s nothing illegal about what he is doing”; but that doesn’t stop you or the left from trying to put a little doubt in the minds of the American people, does it. Just throw shit against the wall and see how much sticks. Let me explain something to you; I believe Harry Reid is the most disgusting person in the Congress. He has shamed the office of Senate Majority leader and has resorted to the gutter politics of Chicago…you know….Obama’s home town. And I also believe you and your lefty friends have followed right in the steps of this disgusting manner of campaigning.

I gave you facts on the Democrat status of WV, and you gave me opinions. You now offer more opinions on Romney’s finances and claim they are facts showing guilt. Sorry…but it is you who are the liar.

phx8 thank you for your military service.

Billinflorida,

Romney’s tax returns are a focus of Democratic interest because they exemplify how many in the highest income brackets avoid taxation at even a middle class rate. Romney’s income from his employment as an equity capital manager was not taxed as ordinary income, as one would expect, but at the lower capital gains rate (15%) due to a nuance in the tax code. He also employed numerous tax shelters to further avoid taxation.

You may be satisfied that Romney meets the letter of the law as far as disclosure is concerned. However, you should be disgusted at the extent to which our tax laws allow a person of such high income to avoid taxation at anything nearly approaching a reasonable rate.

We are seeing run-a-way public spending coming home to roost in California and other states as some fairly large cities are filing for bankruptcy protection. From the comments I have read from leaders in these cities their downfall can be traced primarily to entitlements to public employees and funding community projects that were not needed.

I can see much that is similar in the way our federal government is spending and going deeper in debt. I am not predicting financial collapse of the federal government at this time, but if they don’t change their ways, it could happen in my lifetime which is projected at about 15 more years.

“Billinflorida,

Romney’s tax returns are a focus of Democratic interest because they exemplify how many in the highest income brackets avoid taxation at even a middle class rate.”

No, you lie. For once tell the truth rich; Romney’s tax returns are the focus of Democratic interest because it puts the attention on a make believe problem and takes it off Obama’s dismal record. Tell me, how many years of tax returns would satisfy the left? Some say 10 years, Reid says 12 years, and Wasserman Shultz just yesterday said 23 years. It wouldn’t matter how many years he released, it wouldn’t be enough. You guys on the left are disgusting and there is no honor or truth in anything you say.

“Romney’s income from his employment as an equity capital manager was not taxed as ordinary income, as one would expect, but at the lower capital gains rate (15%) due to a nuance in the tax code. He also employed numerous tax shelters to further avoid taxation.”

If what you say is true, did Romney break any laws? Do liberals take the same tax breaks? Obama has had 4 years to deal with the tax code, two of them with a Democratic majority in both houses; did he ever attempt to change the tax laws??? NO, he simply wasted his time passing obamacare, which no one wanted, and spending 4 years passing out tax dollars to his supporters in the form of stimulus. Tell me rich, are you outraged that former VP Al Gore takes the same tax breaks? Or is that ok with you?

“You may be satisfied that Romney meets the letter of the law as far as disclosure is concerned. However, you should be disgusted at the extent to which our tax laws allow a person of such high income to avoid taxation at anything nearly approaching a reasonable rate.”

Posted by: Rich at August 6, 2012 7:34 PM “

Don’t try to play the game of outrage with me. I already told you, as long as Romney meets the discloser laws, I have no problem. This is the basic difference between liberals and conservatives; conservatives want people to get rich and be successful, and liberals want liberals to get rich, block anyone else from getting rich, and placing as many people as they can on government welfare and food stamps.

I am against taxes for corporations, rich people, poor people, and anyone in between. But I am in favor of cutting spending; and what I am really disgusted with is a Senator like Dingy Harry Reid, who would not allow a budget to come to the floor of the Senate for 3 years, nor any jobs bills, nor the repeal of Obamacare, but he would use his influence and talking time on the floor of the Senate to make unsubstantiated accusations against another American citizen. He is disgusting and Nevada should be embarrassed that a scum bag like Reid represents their state.

Don’t forget not bringing the ‘audit the fed’ bill to the floor after he spent two decades calling for it…

Trickle…that’s a good word for it

seo , | ar condicionado automotivo, http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php ar,ar condicionado automotivo, http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php,-,ar condicionado automotivo,- ar condicionado automotivo, carro ar http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php, de ar bomb ar condicionado automotivo | | | http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php | http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php ! ! ! seo fuck http://google.com.br | http://google.com.br http://google.com.br ar condicionado automotivo, de ar condicionado automotivo ar,ar condicionado automotivo, ar condicionado automotivo,-,ar condicionado automotivo,- ar condicionado automotivo, carro ar ar de carro, de ar bomb ar condicionado automotivo | | | | | | | , , , , http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php , , - ar condicionado automotivo, de ar condicionado automotivo ar,ar condicionado automotivo, ar condicionado automotivo,-,ar condicionado automotivo,- ar condicionado automotivo, carro ar ar de carro, de ar bomb ar condicionado automotivo | | | | | | | ! ! ! ! | ! ! ar condicionado automotivo, de ar condicionado automotivo ar,ar condicionado automotivo, seo fuck ar condicionado automotivo,-,ar condicionado automotivo,- ar condicionado automotivo, carro ar http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php, de ar bomb http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php | | | http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php | | | , , , , , ,seo fuck ,
seo , | ar condicionado automotivo, http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php ar,ar condicionado automotivo, http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php,-,ar condicionado automotivo,- ar condicionado automotivo, carro ar http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php, de ar bomb ar condicionado automotivo | | | http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php | http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php ! ! ! seo fuck http://google.com.br | http://google.com.br http://google.com.br ar condicionado automotivo, de ar condicionado automotivo ar,ar condicionado automotivo, ar condicionado automotivo,-,ar condicionado automotivo,- ar condicionado automotivo, carro ar ar de carro, de ar bomb ar condicionado automotivo | | | | | | | , , , , http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php , , - ar condicionado automotivo, de ar condicionado automotivo ar,ar condicionado automotivo, ar condicionado automotivo,-,ar condicionado automotivo,- ar condicionado automotivo, carro ar ar de carro, de ar bomb ar condicionado automotivo | | | | | | | ! ! ! ! | ! ! ar condicionado automotivo, de ar condicionado automotivo ar,ar condicionado automotivo, seo fuck ar condicionado automotivo,-,ar condicionado automotivo,- ar condicionado automotivo, carro ar http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php, de ar bomb http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php | | | http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php | | | , , , , , ,seo fuck ,

seo , | ar condicionado automotivo, http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php ar,ar condicionado automotivo, http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php,-,ar condicionado automotivo,- ar condicionado automotivo, carro ar http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php, de ar bomb ar condicionado automotivo | | | http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php | http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php ! ! ! seo fuck http://google.com.br | http://google.com.br http://google.com.br ar condicionado automotivo, de ar condicionado automotivo ar,ar condicionado automotivo, ar condicionado automotivo,-,ar condicionado automotivo,- ar condicionado automotivo, carro ar ar de carro, de ar bomb ar condicionado automotivo | | | | | | | , , , , http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php , , - ar condicionado automotivo, de ar condicionado automotivo ar,ar condicionado automotivo, ar condicionado automotivo,-,ar condicionado automotivo,- ar condicionado automotivo, carro ar ar de carro, de ar bomb ar condicionado automotivo | | | | | | | ! ! ! ! | ! ! ar condicionado automotivo, de ar condicionado automotivo ar,ar condicionado automotivo, seo fuck ar condicionado automotivo,-,ar condicionado automotivo,- ar condicionado automotivo, carro ar http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php, de ar bomb http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php | | | http://nikweinstein.com/cl/google.php | | | , , , , , ,seo fuck ,