Democrats & Liberals Archives

LOL!
Mitt Ro-money: “I never said that thing that I just said!”
He does this all the time — and it’s such Comedy Gold for Comedy Central!

Mitt’s official symbol should be The Waffle.

Btw, did you hear how he praised Israel’s health care system? I’m thinking he’ll probably have to walk this one back as well…
Romney: Socialized Health Care Good For Israel, Not For U.S

All the humiliating actions should be punished! They are the obstacles of our pursuing for better lives. If you want to live well and happy, just like everyone wants to be, you should not be living in a war, a fight, something like that. I just cannot understand why so many people feel so uncalm that he needs fightings so much. But Our essentials need is happiness
.

All the people should be respected, this is human rights, this is the shining points of being a human. What we should pursue is living together well and happy. Only in this occasion, You will be really happy, from the bottom of the heart, real HAPPINESS
.

Obamaluv said:

“Mitt Romney held a fundraising event in Jerusalem with 40 campaign donators with very deep pockets. It was the typical event of the Republican to continue raising enough money to buy a victory to the White House. If that is possible, like many believe, Romney’s fundraising and Super Pac resources could in fact make that happen…

The first question about Romney’s Israel visit is, “Is it okay to be holding presidential fundraiser’s on foreign soil?”

Obamaluv, let’s go back 4 years:

“In time for summer break, Obama’s campaign extends its fundraising efforts with the Oscar-winning actor in Switzerland and expats in France.”

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/george-clooney-obama-fundraiser-gevena-343580

Or how about this:

“The Obama campaign will host events in Geneva, Switzerland in August as part of their “European outreach effort.” George Clooney will headline a fundraiser there, with 150 tickets going for $20,000 per piece. There’s even more to the bargain: if you go as a couple, the second ticket is half-off!”

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2012/06/29/Obama-European-campaign-July-4

Alright, now we know that Obama also went outside the US to campaign for election funds. So now let’s attack the people who donate:

“One Romney supporter who was in attendance at the King David Hotel was billionaire casino owner, Sheldon Adelson, who has personally said he would give $100 million to get Democratic President Barack Obama out of the White House.”

Is Sheldon Gary Adelson an American citizen; because it would be illegal to accept funds from foreigners?

“Sheldon Gary Adelson (born August 4, 1933) is an American business magnate. He is the chairman and chief executive officer of the Las Vegas Sands Corporation, the parent company of Venetian Macao Limited which operates The Venetian Resort Hotel Casino and the Sands Expo and Convention Center. He also owns the Israeli daily newspaper Israel HaYom. Adelson’s initial public offering of Las Vegas Sands occurred in December 2004. He is listed in the Forbes 400 as the eighth wealthiest American.[1] His personal wealth is estimated to be $24.9 billion as of March 2012. “

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheldon_Adelson

Yes he is a US citizen, so everything is legal…

“For all of the criticism he has received for his offshore financial management, and his self-proclaimed patriotism, why on Earth would he take his campaign to Jerusalem?”

Why would Obama raise funds in Europe a month ago?

“The fact that Romney has the financial resources and Super Pac backing to literally rewrite the whole system and get away with it is frightening. There’s nothing that is stopping him because he has all the money in the world on his side.”

So your logic is that it’s not fair that Romney would raise more money than Obama? Let’s look at Obama 4 years ago compared to McCain:

“Obama’s fundraising has set records for a presidential campaign. He has pulled in $454.8 million since entering the race in early 2007, compared with McCain’s $224.3 million.

In addition to the $66 million Obama raised in August that went into his campaign account, he worked with the Democratic National Committee to raise $23 million for a joint fundraising account called the Obama Victory Fund. The DNC will use that money to cover costs during the remaining weeks of Obama’s campaign.”

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/sep/22/nation/na-money22

“Romney was called racist for his remarks from Saeb Erekat, an aide to the Palestinian President, who added, “It seems to me this man lacks information, knowledge, vision, and understanding of this region and its people.” Uh, you think?”

So you quote q terrorist?

“Governor Romney caused a stir when he said in a speech Sunday that “it is a deeply moving experience to be in Jerusalem, the capital of Israel.” That actually sounded milder than what then-Sen. Barack Obama said in June 2008, when he insisted that Jerusalem must “remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.”

http://news.yahoo.com/mitt-romney-jerusalem-another-city-another-gaffe-two-184529363.html

So both had gaffs concerning the capital of Israel; do we just hammer Romney and not Obama?

Regarding Romney’ comments about culture and prosperity; if the Palestinians worked for the prosperity of their own people as hard as they work to kill Jews, perhaps they would be more prosperous.

Overall, I give your post an “F”. It shows your utter hatred for conservatives, and of course your comments will attract hate mongers like Adrienne; who is filled with hatred and vitriol. Her complete lack of knowledge of Israel’s Healthcare System compared to the single payer system that is the goal of socialist liberals in the US is typical of the left. I might suggest that Adrienne read the information contained in her link, instead of just reading the headline.

Frank, you might want to consider the fact that you are commenting in the blue column, if you don’t like what you read, then don’t come back. You have no power or control beyond your argumentative comments in regards to who writes where. Get over yourself ! And you can take that ” F ” and put it somewhere else…

Oh, I read the article Frank — Israel’s health care system is just like RomneyObama Care! Hahahahaha!!!
Likely this is why Mitt admired it so much.
But as I said, back at home what with all you GOPsychopaths to contend with, he’s really going to need to walk a lot of that praise back…

“Her complete lack of knowledge of Israel’s Healthcare System compared to the single payer system that is the goal of socialist liberals in the US is typical of the left.”

Frank,

I suggest that you actually learn something about the Israeli health care system before accusing someone else of ignorance. Israel passed a universal national health insurance program in 1995. The national government collects taxes from employers and other sources and distributes them to four non-profit health insurance agencies. Citizens then have the choice of enrolling in one of the four plans. The plans cannot reject any applicants and are funded by the government based on number of members, their age and other actuarial factors.

The twist that Israel introduced with its universal national insurance model is the employment of four rather than one non-profit or public insurance plans. The idea was to create some element of competition in the provision of services. You might be interested to learn that not all “socialized” health insurance systems employ a national single payer. Canada, for instance, employs a provincial based health insurance model with the federal government collecting taxes and distributing them to the provinces but not running the actual provincial based insurance delivery system.

Romney’s praise of the Israeli national health care system is quite strange but very welcome.

Either he didn’t understand the Israeli health care insurance system or he is a closet “socialist.” Clearly, Israel has followed the European model of socializing health insurance for its citizens.

What apparently attracted Romney’s praise was the fact that Israeli expenditures on health care are only half as much as the US as measured by percent of GDP, yet they provide universal coverage to their citizens with comparable or better quality and outcome. Good! Its about time that some conservatives actually look at the cost/benefits of alternative systems.

Perhaps, Romney’s vow to repeal Obamacare is nothing but a trojan horse for replacing it with a true universal national health care system.

Perhaps, Romney’s vow to repeal Obamacare is nothing but a trojan horse for replacing it with a true universal national health care system. Posted by: Rich at August 1, 2012 9:47 AM

That is one possibility Rich but the flip flopper may just be trying to attract moderates to vote for him with this seemingly moderate message. He already has the conservatives fooled as Frank has aptly proven so why not go after the independents and the more moderate repubs.

“Frank, you might want to consider the fact that you are commenting in the blue column, if you don’t like what you read, then don’t come back. You have no power or control beyond your argumentative comments in regards to who writes where. Get over yourself ! And you can take that ” F ” and put it somewhere else…”

Posted by: jane doe at July 31, 2012 11:36 PM

Jane doe, it has nothing to do with getting over myself. I realize this is the blue column, and I gave obamaluv an “F”, for the lack of truthfulness of the article.

The Israeli HC system was the last of 5 points he made; and I proved the points either incorrect or that the gaffs had been made by Romney, as well as Obama. Would you care to discuss the other 4 points or is it the left’s desire to just talk about Israeli HC?

“Oh, I read the article Frank — Israel’s health care system is just like RomneyObama Care! Hahahahaha!!!
Likely this is why Mitt admired it so much.
But as I said, back at home what with all you GO Psychopaths to contend with, he’s really going to need to walk a lot of that praise back…”

Posted by: Adrienne at August 1, 2012 1:44 AM

Why would you call me a “GOPsychopath”; what have I ever done to you? I said that Obamaluv’s comments would bring out the hate speech of the left; speaking of you in particular. And the point was proven. Do you know how to speak to people peacefully or is everything a personal attack and hate filled?

Here is another perfect example of the left trying their best to change the topic:

“Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid claims that a Bain investor told him that Mitt Romney didn’t pay taxes for 10 years and that his wealth is worth much more than $250 million.
Reid recently spoke to the Huffington Post about Romney and stated that about a month ago a Bain Capital investor called his office and said, “Harry, he didn’t pay any taxes for 10 years.”
If this is true, it may be the reason why Romney refuses to release additional tax returns but Reid’s revelation didn’t seem to get a rise out of Romney’s campaign adviser Kevin Madden.
When asked about Reid’s comments, Madden told the Huffington Post that Romney had “gone above and beyond the disclosure requirements by releasing two years of personal tax returns in addition to the hundreds of pages of personal financial disclosure documents he has provided to the FEC and made public.”

When Reid was asked about his sources; he couldn’t give them. When asked for proof, this was his answer:

“He didn’t pay taxes for 10 years! Now, do I know that that’s true? Well, I’m not certain … but obviously he can’t release those tax returns. How would it look?” - Harry Reid

It’s not a case of being able to prove anything; it’s simply a case of throwing shit against the wall and seeing how much sticks.

The statements (so called gaffs) by Romney are nothing more than an attempt to change the topic of the subject. The left (including Rich) would do anything they could to defend Obamacare. There has been a consistent 50-60% of Americans who want it repealed, ever since the law was passed. Two days ago Rasmussen had a poll where 55% wanted repeal and 37% did not. This is a lot of people who want it gone. The left has always tried to say the MA HC system is the same as Obamacare, and it’s not. It is nothing like Obamacare. Now you argue that the Israeli HC system is the same as, what…obamacare or the MA HC system? The Israeli HC system is nothing like obamacare. It is not financed the same, it is not controlled the same, and it requires the use of private insurance companies. Obamacare is a prelude to a government controlled single payer system like the European model. Israel’s HC is 8% of their GDP and the financing is kept in private enterprise; on the other hand, Obamacare is 16-17% of GDP and the goal is to put this money in the hands of the Federal Government.

“Canada, for instance, employs a provincial based health insurance model with the federal government collecting taxes and distributing them to the provinces but not running the actual provincial based insurance delivery system.”

Posted by: Rich at August 1, 2012 9:26 AM

That’s why Canadians carry an extra private HC ins policy and come to the US for major life and death operations.

“ Either he didn’t understand the Israeli health care insurance system or he is a closet “socialist.” Clearly, Israel has followed the European model of socializing health insurance for its citizens.”

No, it’s not. But none of the left’s attempt to change the topic means anything. Romney has said he would repeal Obamacare, and 55% of Americans agree with him. So what does all your talk amount to…BS. The left hates Romney, so they are never going to support him; and the right wants him to repeal Obamacare, and he will.

The real story from yesterday is a Tea Party supported Senate candidate by the name of Ted Cruz, beat out the Republican establishment candidate, Lt. Gov. David Dewhurst, in Texas. This should be a real fear factor for the left. America is trending conservative and TP candidates are being voted in office. The Republican establishment fears this and so does the left.

Why would you call me a “GOPsychopath”; what have I ever done to you?

Read the replies you put up in this blog.

Do you know how to speak to people peacefully or is everything a personal attack and hate filled?

hate mongers like Adrienne; who is filled with hatred and vitriol. Her complete lack of knowledge…

And blah, blah, blah… I respond in kind to what people write to me. You want to be spoken to peacefully? I could easily do that — but first you’d have to make an attempt to not act like a crazed rightwing nutcase all the time.

LOL! But the thing is, I’ve been reading your posts long enough to know that you’re completely incapable of that, so why don’t you go slip into something more comfortable… like a coma.

Speaking of Obama Care…

Starting August 1, 2012

Women to receive, free of charge:
Mammograms, Cholesterol screenings, Well-women visits, Domestic violence counseling, FDA-approved contraceptive products, Breatfeeding support & supplies, HPV DNA testing for women 30 and older, STD counseling, HIV screening and counseling.
All through Medicare or private insurance plans.

These benefits made possible on behalf of the women of America through Obama Care — which Mitt Romney (despite his praise for Israel’s socialized health care) and the GOP vows to repeal.

The real story from yesterday is a Tea Party supported Senate candidate by the name of Ted Cruz, beat out the Republican establishment candidate, Lt. Gov. David Dewhurst, in Texas. This should be a real fear factor for the left. America is trending conservative and TP candidates are being voted in office. The Republican establishment fears this and so does the left.

Posted by: Frank at August 1, 2012 11:19

As a Texan Frank, I was very pleased with the Cruz victory. And, in Indiana, Senator Dick Lugar also fell to another TEA party supported candidate. The TEA party is alive and well and scaring the hell out of establishment Republicans.

Perhaps Adrienne could tell us the current status of OWS. I recall her posts telling us how they would help sweep conservatives out of power.

The unholy duo…Adrienne and Jane Doe…continue with their rage rampage to no ones surprise. Over on the Republican column they continue to argue that atheists should instruct Christians, and liberals should reform conservatives.

REMINDER: TAKE A BOY SCOUT TO CHICK FIL A TODAY FOR A GREAT MEAL.

Perhaps Adrienne could tell us the current status of OWS.

That’s easy. The current status is that OWS has completely changed the political dialogue that people are having across this whole country. The GOP really hates that fact because they were really hoping the middle class and the poor would continue to ignore the way the rich has been waging class warfare on them. In their intense anger over this the GOP keeps trying to demonize OWS, not realizing that every time they simply mention us they’re actually helping to keep our message about the 1% vs. the rest of America front and center in the minds of our citizens.

On a related note:
Study: Romney Plan Would Raise Taxes On 95% Of Americans

From the link:

Mitt Romney’s tax plan would be a boon for the wealthy, but a tax hike for 95% of Americans, according to a new nonpartisan study.

The report, by researchers from both the Brookings Institution and Tax Policy Center, examined Romney’s suggestion of an across-the-board 20% income tax cut financed by closing existing loopholes and concluded there was no way to make the numbers work without burdening the vast majority of Americans with higher taxes.

Romney has not said which tax breaks he would end to finance his plan, but he has suggested that he would only look to breaks that benefit the wealthy. The report concluded that notion is a fantasy no matter how it’s constructed: There simply are too many middle class tax breaks on the table to avoid skewing the burden against the average American.

This should be a real fear factor for the left. America is trending conservative and TP candidates are being voted in office. The Republican establishment fears this and so does the left.

As all Americans, and for that matter the world, should Royal. As the extremist right wing of this country buys control of the repub party with their billions we can expect the authoritarian conservatives to continue to damage the nation with their ideological nonsense. The fascist nature of the Tea Party is something to fear IMHO.

free of charge

Um, no, and the fatal failing of most progressives the world over… It costs somebody something. All you’ve done is shift the cost to someone else.

All you’ve done is shift the cost to someone else.

I guess you’ll have to take this up with Romney, since he admires socialized health care and was just praising the way it helps to bring costs down.

I guess you’ll have to take this up with Romney

Why would I do that as I have no intention of voting for him or supporting him as a candidate?

BTW, You are the one who said it was ‘free’. I guess the real goal is just to use the force to determine who has to pay for someone else… Kind of god-like. Another common failing of progressives, thinking they are gods and somehow get to choose the outcomes that should be left to individuals to decide upon themselves…

Oh, and to be fair, conservatives suffer from the failing of thinking that an actual god gives them the power to make those choices. They put the concept into an incorporeal being, progressives just place it into themselves (or their leaders).

Perhaps j2 can tell us whose billions buy control of the dem party.

I no longer give my money to the party or any of the organized groups except for the Tea Party. What little I do give for political purposes goes to individuals running for office who hold my conservative political views.

I googled…”Is OWS growing” and all the results on the first page were dated November 2011 or earlier. I wonder what has happened in the past 7 months.

Adrienne wrote; “The current status is that OWS has completely changed the political dialogue that people are having across this whole country.”

I wonder if she could cite some facts to back that up.

Yahoo News has this report from (Reuters) dated June 7, 2012.

“More than eight months after Occupy Wall Street burst onto the global state, decrying income inequality and coining the phrase “We are the 99 percent,” the movement’s survival and continued relevance is far from assured.

Donations to the flagship New York chapter have slowed to a trickle. Polls show that public support is rapidly waning. Media attention has dropped precipitously.

Even its social media popularity, a key indicator of the strength of a youthful movement, has fizzled since its zenith last fall.

“Most of the social scientists who are at all like me - unsentimental leftists - … think this movement is over,” said Harvard University professor Theda Skocpol, a liberal academic who wrote a book on the Tea Party.

Almost all of the 300 or more camps that sprung up around the nation have been disbanded, according to Arun Gupta, co-founder of The Occupied Wall Street Journal, the movement’s newspaper of occasional record.

Perhaps j2 can tell us whose billions buy control of the dem party.

Here’s an example…

That hasn’t stopped opponents from declaring the proposition [proposition B, San Diego] favors rich and powerful business leaders who don’t have to take money from their workers’ paychecks to support candidates (this is apparently a bad thing) and won’t do anything about super PACs. As I’ve pointed out before, this argument is hilarious, because the opposition to the ballot initiative is organized by Alliance for a Better California 2012, funded by three different PACs. Isn’t that a Super PAC?

Just read in the NY Times that the dem/lib flagship TV network…CNN…has lost another huge slice of its audience. I wonder why more folks don’t tune into CNN for news and commentary. It couldn’t be the biased views they present…could it?

Fox News however scored another victory in viewership numbers. They may be biased as well, but it seems that if they are, the public loves it.

I guess the real goal is just to use the force to determine who has to pay for someone else…

Women are extremely happy with these new changes that Obama Care has just given us, and any man whinging about “shifting costs” and “who will pay” is going to be something that strikes women as hilarious and highly ironic.

Women are extremely happy with these new changes that Obama Care has just given us

I can imagine, most people are happy when someone gives them something… As long as they don’t internally reflect upon the fact that it was taken by force from someone else (including other women and/or themselves through other means).

I retired from actively selling health, long-term care and life insurance a few years ago.

Women were charged lower rates for both long-term care and life insurance. I guess rates for women should go up on those two products to be “fair”.

Rheinhold,

You are correct that the “free” diagnostic tests for both women and men contained in the health care act are not actually free but financed through the basic premiums or with higher deductibles or co-payments for other procedures.

Nonetheless, the requirements, even if not actually “free,” make sense from a preventive medicine and long term financial perspective. They are financial incentives for individuals to have annual checkups and to take early detection diagnostic tests. Theoretically, it is a win/win for all parties. The insured may save his or her life or avoid serious complications with early detection. The insurer may save enormous payouts for treatment of advanced diseases and complications from undetected conditions.

So, while, the tests and checkups are not actually free, they may, in the long run, reduce overall payouts and ultimately reduce premiums.

So, while, the tests and checkups are not actually free, they may, in the long run, reduce overall payouts and ultimately reduce premiums.

So would paying for the tests out of pocket, showing that the tests have been taken, and having your premiums lowered as a result of showing that you are actively working on good preventative health practices which lower your overall healthcare costs.

We all know that healthcare insurance is largely a gamble and that most people who pay into insurance never get as much out of it as they put in, otherwise the system would fall in upon itself. So people who are trying to be healthy would pay less than those who aren’t. Finding a way to incentivize (and/or reward) that behavior would not just lower costs but make the country a healthier country as well.

But that kind of system is an anathema to the two major parties… Because it takes the CONTROL of our lives out of our hands and gives it to the government, so that they can make our decisions for us.

(Of course, that last statement of mine should be switched the way it was read, but I think most people understand that…)

BTW, the real issue I have is that people on both sides are trying to convince people that they are giving them something for nothing. That is not the case, in fact they are paying more for those things with the government’s health than without it AND giving up their freedoms as well. That people aren’t taught critical thinking and can see through that BS is part of why we are where we are today.

“Obamacare is a prelude to a government controlled single payer system like the European model. Israel’s HC is 8% of their GDP and the financing is kept in private enterprise; on the other hand, Obamacare is 16-17% of GDP and the goal is to put this money in the hands of the Federal Government.”

Frank,

Why don’t you actually read how the Israeli system works. The government collects the money and funds four non-profit companies that citizens chose for their insurance. The government limits what the plans can pay for services, including hospital costs. It is a socialized financing system. Pure and simple.

The fact that Israel only spends 8% of its GDP on health vs. 16% for the US only argues for a socialized universal approach to health insurance.

Geez, only a fraction of Obamacare has even been implemented yet, so, how can Obamacare be responsible for 16-17% of GDP. That is data from pre-Obamacare.

I wonder if she could cite some facts to back that up.

Sure.

Here’s article from today:

If OWS is so irrelevant and unimportant, then why is the NYPD being taken to court?

An article from yesterday:

If OWS is really considered so irrelevant and unimportant then you really have to question why the Security State would be wasting so much time and truly enormous amounts of money focusing on the movement?

An article from July 29th:

If OWS is so irrelevant and unimportant, then why are the billionaires clearly so worried and nervous?

This is just a few days of things being written and talked about regarding OWS, and if people look they will see that practically everyday there will be some new piece(s) of news.

I get the sense that conservatives just keep saying that OWS has/is making no impact because they wish they hadn’t and weren’t still doing so. I keep hearing this proclamation made that the movement is dead but it seems like that’s because they really, really wish that was the case.
What you don’t seem to understand is that this movement started online in the first place and has never stopped working to get messages out on the web. OWS then moved into the streets and parks to protest, but when the police state went after it by pepper spraying, and beating and bloodying heads, and making so many arrests, that didn’t stop the movement since it’s huge and there are so many people who continue to become involved — and more and more join all the time.

OWS has from the beginning known that what would be built was a very large movement that would concern itself with focusing on corruption and inequality, while helping to change American society for the better in a million different ways in the long term.
Yet, it’s clear that many people assumed as soon as they didn’t see people marching or occupying in parks that the movement had suddenly dissipated or even disappeared. It hasn’t — although it does seem pretty clear that people like “Harvard University professor Theda Skocpol” and many, many others don’t quite realize this or understand what OWS is truly all about.

Rheinhold,

Sure, it would make sense for people to pay out of pocket for early diagnostic tests, annual checkups, etc. if they were rewarded by lower premiums for having good health and a healthy lifestyle.

But, that isn’t human nature. It was the problem with the high deductible insurance plans. People avoided paying the out of pocket for annual checkups and routine visits for blood pressure, diabetes, etc. The long term health and financial incentives are simply not sufficient to overcome the short term disincentives. Perhaps that is sad but it is true.

Perhaps that is sad but it is true.

It is for some, not for others. But to combat this, the only answer you have is to take that decision, the decision on how to take care of your own body, out of the hands of the individual and place it in the hands of the state.

We shouldn’t be doing that, people’s bodies should be theirs to do with as they choose, not someone else.

For example, the costs of goods and services would be much lower in the US if we could lower our labor costs. We could do that simply by reenacting slavery. If this was just a ‘lower sum game’, that would be the wise course of action. But it isn’t what we do because we believe an individual has the right to do what they want with their bodies, including trading their labor for a paycheck. Yet, you want to take that right to do what you want with your own body away from them in the name of doing what YOU think is better for them, making that choice for them.

There are other ways to solve the problem, we should be looking for them, not taking those choices away from the individual when it comes to their own bodies and their own health. Not allowing the state to have a say in that decision.

Just heard a comment on TV made by some right wing, woman-hating antagonist…..and that was that all women “should be ashamed of ourselves” because today will live in infamy like December 7 and September 11……. because of the health-care provisions we have effective today! This being made by a man who has been elected to represent those in his district…… ALL PEOPLE>…….including women!!!!! Now by all means…jump in here and tell us with pride how you support the comment and the sentiment !!! You are absolutely the epitome of hypocritical religious perversion.

You are absolutely the epitome of hypocritical religious perversion.

If you are going to make statements like this, you should be sure to clarify who you are making them against. If I didn’t know better I might think this was directed at me…

And by the way, Adrienne….there seems to be some major planning and activities being prepared for the purpose of sustaining the Chick fil Hate outrage.

ya think, Rhinehold…?? And you know, if the shoe fits…

ya think, Rhinehold…?? And you know, if the shoe fits…

Actually, no, if you think that your comment has anything to do with me or my opinions, you are obviously unable to comprehend what is going on or being said and I would recommend you stop making yourself look like an ass. Mainly because

a) I do not support the ‘statement’ you quoted, as an individualist I believe that all individuals should be treated as equals, men, women, minorities, lgbt, etc.

b) I am not religious, in fact I am an atheist

c) I am not right-wing, had you read what I wrote you would have noticed that, except you didn’t, did you?

There are other reasons, but given that you either don’t read what is written, or have trouble comprehending it, I am not sure if there is much point trying to explain it further to you.

I guess Adrienne found the (Reuters) article I quoted to be just a huge lie. LOL

Does a lawsuit make OWS important? LOL

The “police state” link was just an outrageously funny interpretation of law and order by the mob mouthpiece.

The article on the Sag Harbor rich guy was also hilarious and written by some hack OWS writer who will never make a living pedaling this crap.

(Reuters) has some journalistic recognition and awards. Just who do you think is more believable Adrienne?

OWS mobsters are smelly would-be commies who are simply incapable of making it in a capitalistic society. They hate our Democratic Republic just as you do Adrienne. I can understand why they appeal to your intellect. They, as well as you blame everyone else for their misery…religion, big business, police, conservatives, the Founders, our constitution, energy producers, food producers, insurance companies, the military, heterosexuals, unborn babies, and retired folks. Did I leave anyone or anything out?

OWS is gasping for its last breath. It has absolutely no political influence any longer. It is a failed revival of communism.

I can imagine Adrienne and Jane Doe as being among the women in Dickens “Tale of Two Cities” who get front row seats at the daily be-headings and cackling at how much fun it is.

Royal Flush said:

“I no longer give my money to the party or any of the organized groups except for the Tea Party. What little I do give for political purposes goes to individuals running for office who hold my conservative political views.”

Royal, I notified the Republican Party many years ago to quit asking for donations. I told them I would never support them until they proved to me they could support conservative ideals; and so far they have not. I do support the Tea Party and TP candidates.

Re/OWS; it is interesting that their donations have slowed to a trickle. First, the left has a terrible record when it comes to donating to causes. If you will remember ACORN went belly up, when the tax dollars were cut off.

The OWC camps were nothing more than a gathering of perverse people who wanted free sex or free food. The thing that really causes the left to fear is that the TP is still here; unlike the OWS that was nothing more than disorganized dying protest, the TP has morphed into a real power in politics. The left wants to follow the lead of Pelosi by calling it Astroturf supported by the millions from big donors. How ignorant; Cruz was outspent 3 to 1 in Texas and yet won. Yesterday, something that has not been talked about, a crushing defeat took place in Atlanta. Another boondoggle transportation bill was shot down, and the main reason? People were fed up with the tax and spending. Who led the fight to shoot it down? The Tea Party:

“The defeat of the 10-year, 1 percent sales tax leaves the Atlanta region’s traffic congestion problem with no visible remedy. It marks failure not only for the tax but for the first attempt ever to unify the 10-county region’s disparate voters behind a plan of action.

“Let this send a message,” said Debbie Dooley, a tea party leader who early on organized opposition to the T-SPLOST tax measure. “We the people, you have to earn our trust before asking for more money.”

http://www.ajc.com/news/transportation-referendum/voters-reject-transportation-tax-1488552.html

“Just read in the NY Times that the dem/lib flagship TV network…CNN…has lost another huge slice of its audience. I wonder why more folks don’t tune into CNN for news and commentary. It couldn’t be the biased views they present…could it?

Fox News however scored another victory in viewership numbers. They may be biased as well, but it seems that if they are, the public loves it.”

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 1, 2012 4:51 PM

I wonder how long I will be before Obama and company ask for stimulus to bail out CNN?

“Geez, only a fraction of Obamacare has even been implemented yet, so, how can Obamacare be responsible for 16-17% of GDP. That is data from pre-Obamacare.”

Posted by: Rich at August 1, 2012 6:07 PM

Rich, are you really stupid or are you just pretending?

Rheinhold,

The government isn’t saying that all insured must have annual checkups and early diagnostic tests. It is simply requiring insurers to align their economic incentives in such a way as to encourage early testing. Its really not all that clever or surprising. Why haven’t they been doing it all along anyway? Its an interesting question. Why haven’t they been creating economic incentives for their insured to get early testing and diagnostics?

Royal, I find it interesting that the same democrats who so dogmatically defend the police and firefighter unions; are the first to hollar “police brutality” and sue them.

Kind of like their support of the military, when they support them…before they call them terrorists and torturers.

“Rich, are you really stupid or are you just pretending?”

No, Frank. From what year do you think that Romney quoted the 16-17% of GDP for healthcare from?

Rhinehold, if you felt the comment didn’t apply to you, then you should have stayed out of it, and you might want to do that in the future. And believe me, for the years before interacting with you was very “enlightening”….
Bottom line, is that I did not address it to you and was not responding to anything of yours….get over yourself.

The government isn’t saying that all insured must have annual checkups and early diagnostic tests.Yet. But that is the next logical step.

It is simply requiring insurers to align their economic incentives in such a way as to encourage early testing.

And requiring that individuals buy insurance or else pay for the insurance of others. And requiring how the insurance companies insure those individuals.

Why haven’t they been doing it all along anyway?

Because individuals should have domain over their own bodies and government USED to know that.

Why haven’t they been creating economic incentives for their insured to get early testing and diagnostics?

Because too many people felt it was ‘unfair’ to charge someone more for insurance than someone else just because of their lifestyle because we all know that the poor have a harder time living a healthy lifestyle. So those people took to the government and blocked reforms that the insurance companies wanted to put in place that did just that. Now you want the government to do what you didn’t want the insurance companies to do originally?

The best way to deal with healthcare in the US is to offer FSA accounts that allow younger healthy individuals to save up for health care issues, rolling over those funds, tax free, to be used when needed, and supplement those accounts with catastrophic insurance that is very cheap to purchase.

Allowing people to purchase their healthcare directly from the doctor will allow them to question charges, shop around for good quality care at the right price, and in turn keep the costs of healthcare down as a result.

But since it was the government who caused us to get our healthcare through insurance through our employers in the first place, why would they think about doing that?

The government isn’t saying that all insured must have annual checkups and early diagnostic tests.

Yet. But that is the next logical step

I am not opposed to HSAs and high deductible insurance plans. The scheme has a lot of merit. Unfortunately, nobody seems willing to flesh out the approach.

Flushed, if you were to be one of the “headliners” in a production, I might well enjoy watching from a good viewing area, and I can well imagine that Adrienne could easily be encouraged to accompany me. Be sure to let us know if you fall into a booking….

I just read that Chik Fil A is having one of its biggest sale days ever. No surprise to me.

I heard a report that Adrienne and Jane Doe were protesting outside an outlet and were unwillingly swept along by the huge crowd into the store where they promptly fainted. A local physician revived them by placing a fragrant chicken-finger under their nose. Regaining their dignity (lol) they shouted “down with Christians” and a group prayer was said for them. Sadly…they both fainted again.

Paramedics escorted them to St. Mary’s hospital where their condition is listed as “guarded” and “hopeful”.

Flushed, you might think that you are a real wit, but you’re full of crap as well as being quick to post some juvenile and idiotic comment that only validates that opinion.

Liberals, socialists and commies seem to have no sense of humor.

Unfortunately, nobody seems willing to flesh out the approach.

It’s been fleshed out and was brought up in 2009/2010 when the healthcare discussions were going on. The left, who controlled what could be brought to the floor and couldn’t, rejected it outright in the name of ‘bipartisanship’.

BTW, being a long time supporter of equal rights and therefore supporting gay marriage for decades (much much longer than the Democratic Party and Obama, btw), I haven’t been to a Chick-Fil-A for… oh ever?

But anyone who is against equal rights is more than free to support Chick-Fil-A and buy some food from them today, it makes it very clear to the rest of us who supports what… And I know who I can count on to support my rights when they need to be supported…

Don’t worry, I’ll still support yours… Just because someone is wrong that doesn’t mean they should lose their rights.

RF and Frank,
All that sputtering rage against OWS completely proves my point. OWS really has changed the political dialogue that people are having across this country — if they hadn’t accomplished that, you and other rightwingers wouldn’t be nearly so angry.

Does a lawsuit make OWS important? LOL

The “police state” link was just an outrageously funny interpretation of law and order by the mob mouthpiece.

The article on the Sag Harbor rich guy was also hilarious and written by some hack OWS writer who will never make a living pedaling this crap.

(Reuters) has some journalistic recognition and awards. Just who do you think is more believable Adrienne?

LOL! I love how you’re completely missing the point! But, nevermind more than that I love how you all keep talking about OWS!

I honestly think it’s great that people like you and Frank, and Jack over in the Red Column keep bringing up OWS. Because any time that OWS is even mentioned or manages to make the news that’s a great thing. Whether good or bad, simply being mentioned just keeps calling to mind the main message:

The 1% Is Waging Class Warfare On 99% of Americans.

That’s the truth, and enormous numbers of Americans are aware of this transparent fact. People are also aware that they completely refuse to talk about this fact within the mainstream corporately owned media. Yet, even though people know that it’s true, they haven’t en mass tried to put a stop to it, yet. But one of these days, they WILL do so. And when people do finally make the move to bring this nation more in line with our long held democratic values, rather than continue on this road to Plutocratic Oligarchy, OWS will have acted as a major catalyst.

So please, feel free to keep venting your spleen about OWS!!!

Just because someone is wrong that doesn’t mean they should lose their rights.

Spoken like a Good German.

Me, I’m with The Resistance.

No, I think you’re confused… The Germans didn’t respect rights and that led them to what happened. It’s respecting the rights of everyone that leads to a free society.

Your ‘resistance’ is founded on hypocrisy, which makes it incompatible with freedom and liberty and puts it in line with totalitarianism and fascism… If you get to pick and choose who has rights and who doesn’t, what thinks you are any better than the Germans who did that very same thing?

I love how some on the right say Romney Care is nothing like Obama care, yet don’t provide a single shred of evidence to back the argument. Don’t BS us. If you listened to your own candidate describing his policy to the Heritage Foundation, you wouldn’t be able to produce all that much in the way of distinctions to prove that point.

Ah, but you have to say it. You don’t have the political flexibility anymore to acknowledge it for what it is. Everything is built on fulfilling vain political fantasies, in the place of constructing policy, which can be troublesome sometimes.

The GOP has become a party that floats on rhetoric, rather than founds itself on the concrete improvement of policy. People are rewarded for saying the right things, and what is right is being continually escalated. But what makes it worse is that the give there once was to agree on a moderated compromise simply isn’t there.

At the end of the day, the Tea Party takes the Republicans in a direction they cannot sustain: either abstracting policy towards unrealistic rhetoric, and paying the price for that, or taking the rhetoric so far that people wonder what they really have in common with the the Tea Party folks. Liberals were painted as the other by decades worth of slander, but Tea Partiers are doing the job quite well for themselves by themselves, and the fact they blame the media for that only makes things worse. The vain and spoiled celebrities often blame the media for their coverage, despite the fact that their eccentricities and faults are what bring the negative attention on them.

Republicans need to realize that their party has gotten strained in its reliance on its radical fringe.

I heard that TP candidate Cruz in Texas celebrated his victory by ordering Chick-fil-A for everyone.

Adrienne, when was the last time OWS got together, and please tell us, with facts and links, what influence has OWS had on the political theater?

Do you reckon the millions who bought breakfast, lunch, and dinners today at Chick-fil-A were all Tea Partiers? Inquiring minds want to know.

Royal, loved the story about jane and Adrienne, but it sounds like they were taken to a Catholic hospital…St. Mary’s? It must be terrible to hate Christians so much and then have to go to a church run hospital, when injured.

Yes, Chick-fil-A had one of their best days ever; long lines, running out of food. I wonder if the liberal MSM reported it. The left will never be able to understand this, because they normally have to pay people to show up at their gatherings, but these supporters of Chick-fil-A showed up on their own and paid their own money (not food stamps) to show support.

I bet the left is just beside themselves.

“I love how some on the right say Romney Care is nothing like Obama care, yet don’t provide a single shred of evidence to back the argument.”

Stephen,

You are exactly correct. Rick Santorum pressed this point in the Republican primaries without any credible response from Romney. That is because there is no difference. But, that doesn’t seem to matter to the right.

It, incredibly, doesn’t seem to matter to the right that Romney praised the very system of health care financing (Israeli) that the right has found so abominable over the past three years.

I am more and more convinced that politics has become nothing more than tribal warfare. The only thing that matters is the tribe to which one identifies with. Policies don’t matter. Nobody takes the time to actually read and understand policy proposals anyway. Apparently, you can actually get away with praising your own policies while at the same time disavowing them. You just need to label them differently. Nobody will notice.

I MUST ASK FOR SILENCE…STEPHEN DAUGHERTY HAS GRACED US WITH HIS PRESENCE, AND WHEN STEPHEN SPEAKS, PEOPLE LISTEN.

Actually Stephen, What Romney believes or supported doesn’t mean anything to anyone, except the left. No supporter of Romney cares whether Romneycare is like Obamacare or not. All we care about is repealing it.

“At the end of the day, the Tea Party takes the Republicans in a direction they cannot sustain: either abstracting policy towards unrealistic rhetoric, and paying the price for that, or taking the rhetoric so far that people wonder what they really have in common with the the Tea Party folks. Liberals were painted as the other by decades worth of slander, but Tea Partiers are doing the job quite well for themselves by themselves, and the fact they blame the media for that only makes things worse. The vain and spoiled celebrities often blame the media for their coverage, despite the fact that their eccentricities and faults are what bring the negative attention on them.

Republicans need to realize that their party has gotten strained in its reliance on its radical fringe.”

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 1, 2012 9:25 PM

You must be talking about the TP victory of 2010? Or perhaps you are talking about the socialist takeover of the Democrtisc Party over the past 40 years?

Stephen, your pure hatred of conservatives and the Tea Party is clouding your ability to reason. Let’s look at this comment for example, “Republicans need to realize that their party has gotten strained in its reliance on its radical fringe.” Your logic is saying that the Republican Party is hurting itself by reclaiming it’s conservative, Constitutional roots. Thank you for your concern, but why are you worried about who takes over the Republican Party? Seriously, why are you concerned? The last time I checked, it is the constituents who vote and choose their politicians; and you elitist, arrogant comments are telling us you are upset that the Republican Party is moving toward conservatism, which means you are running scared.

I must ask you rich, what do you mean by “Tribal”? Are you refering to the fact that I am black? Perhaps you should be careful what you say, or you could be considered a racist.

If you get to pick and choose who has rights and who doesn’t, what thinks you are any better than the Germans who did that very same thing?

Oh, the irony is SO heavy!!!

“I must ask you rich, what do you mean by “Tribal”? Are you refering to the fact that I am black.”

Frank,

I presume your comments to be tongue in cheek. I didn’t realize that the only tribes in the world were composed of blacks.

But, you made my point with your comments to Stephen: “Actually Stephen, What Romney believes or supported doesn’t mean anything to anyone, except the left. No supporter of Romney cares whether Romneycare is like Obamacare or not. All we care about is repealing it.”

By the way, Frank, do you have those health care percentage of GDP figures prior to 2011? You know, prior to any implementation of Obamacare. The figures cited by Romney.

Perhaps j2 can tell us whose billions buy control of the dem party.

Royal, the issue is the tea party, those hardy baggers that tell us the are grassroots when they are not. Why are you trying to change the subject. In fact it is beyond that Royal. It is about the baggers who believe they haven’t been fooled by Armey and other conservative leaders. It is about the movement followers who foolishly follow the party line towards extremism. You defend them but you will vote for Romney and then 4 years from now tell us he isn’t a conservative. How many times do you have to do that before you realize what the problem is?

Oh, the irony is SO heavy!!!

No, not really. Libertarianism is about protecting the individuals against the overreaches of the government. Looking back at Germany in the 30s, I think that they could have used a few more of them. A few more people standing up against abuses by the government against people that were different than they were.

But hey, I think we’ve firmly established that you don’t really understand the whole ‘equal rights for all’, since you only want rights to be defended if you agree with them…

“By the way, Frank, do you have those health care percentage of GDP figures prior to 2011? You know, prior to any implementation of Obamacare. The figures cited by Romney.”

Posted by: Rich at August 1, 2012 10:12 PM

Rich, I am not sure I understand what you are talking about. I am referring to the fact that 16-17% of our economy is spent on HC. My concern is the Federal Government taking control of another 16-17% of our economy. Medicare is broke, SS is broke, and how many years before obamacare is broke?

BTW, I know this is a bit off topic, but I recommend NEWSROOM to anyone who hasn’t seen it yet, OMG last Sunday night’s episode was incredible… The best part was when Jeff Daniel’s character was taken to task by a black, gay republican who used to work for and still supports Santorum, even though Santorum is decidedly ‘anti-gay’… His speech was one of brilliance and the reason why Sorkin is one of the best dialog writers that has ever existed… Sportsnight, West Wing, Studio 60 on Sunset Strip and now Newsroom (nevermind his movie work) is a pedigree that anyone who writes either for a living or for a hobby can only drool over… Some of the lines from the speech:

“I am more than one thing. How dare you reduce me to the color of my skin or my sexual orientation? How dare you presume to decide what I think is important?”

“I am far more insulted by your high-handed implication that I need your protection!”

Just remembering that speech gives me chills…

As one critic said about it “Unsurprisingly, it makes Sutton far more interesting than all the empty vessels Sorkin usually trots out. Sutton summons one of those good Sorkin speeches that make you believe in the nuances of humanity, even if just for a moment. “

But hey, I think we’ve firmly established that you don’t really understand the whole ‘equal rights for all’, since you only want rights to be defended if you agree with them…

Do you TRULY have your head THAT far up your ass?

Have you seen me arguing that I think Christians should have their rights striped from them? Have you heard me say that I think the government should take over churches and dictate to these people what they need to think, and who they must allow to marry?

NO. So indeed you HAVE completely missed the irony of your own totally half-assed statements.

I argue FOR the idea that EVERY AMERICAN deserves to have full and equal rights — AGAINST the kind of tyrants who continue to do nothing but argue that their religion is all that matters, so naturally gay Americans don’t deserve equal rights because they consider these people as “Sodomite’s” which are “against God’s law.”

And after that you actually seek to assure the very people who withhold the rights of gay people in America:

“Just because someone is wrong that doesn’t mean they should lose their rights.”

INSANITY. And yes, this kind of sucking up to the kind of people who are THE reason that gay Americans are discriminated against and completely denied their rights marks you as a Good German!

You know, again and again I look what you write, I see how you twist everything inside out and backwards and am left with the impression that you’re definitely not in your right mind.

Seriously, you need to seek help.

And, I really need to completely stop responding to what is in all likelihood either high-strength industrial-grade flamebait and/or total nonsensical madness.

Have you seen me arguing that I think Christians should have their rights striped from them?

Not sure why you mention ‘Christians’, I didn’t. But yes I have seen you arguing that individuals that you disagree with should have their rights curtailed.

I argue FOR the idea that EVERY AMERICAN deserves to have full and equal rights — AGAINST the kind of tyrants who continue to do nothing but argue that their religion is all that matters, so naturally gay Americans don’t deserve equal rights because they consider these people as “Sodomite’s” which are “against God’s law.”

As have I, repeatedly. And I can assume longer since Libertarians have been for gay marriage for far longer than the Democratic Party (which is now just putting it into their party platform, maybe) and President Obama (who was publicly against it until a few months ago).

But my only issue is that you don’t apply this consistently, or you would be joining me as a Libertarian… The Democratic Party certainly does not apply it consistently, which is why I left the Democratic Party. Because I wouldn’t suck up to them when they were wrong.

“Just because someone is wrong that doesn’t mean they should lose their rights.”

INSANITY.

No, Americanism. I disagree with the views of a lot of people but that doesn’t mean they lose their right to free speech because I disagree with them. Or their rights against search and seizure, bear arms, dominion over their own bodies, etc. People are free, in this country, to be WRONG. As long as they don’t violate another’s rights. Perhaps you might have heard that once or twice as the main tenet of the Libertarian Party (people being free to live their lives as they choose as long as they don’t violate the rights of others to the same)?

And yes, this kind of sucking up to the kind of people who are THE reason that gay Americans are discriminated against and completely denied their rights marks you as a Good German!

And now you’re being ignorant. Please explain to me or show me how I have ‘sucked up’ to anyone? I have been a staunch supporter of gay rights for decades. I have a long long track record of that, including running for office with that as one of my platform planks on more than one occasion.

So, with you making this assertion, you are going to have to back it up. Show me the time and place where I have ‘sucked up’ to ANYONE.

You know, again and again I look what you write, I see how you twist everything inside out and backwards and am left with the impression that you’re definitely not in your right mind.

No, my attempt is usually to try to get people to think about what their views are so that they can become more consistent, less hypocritical and see the need to defend the individuals against the abuses of the government, the only organization that can legally use force against anyone…

Yes, some people don’t like that because they don’t want to be questioned, they don’t want to see things differently. They want to remain in their narrow ways and follow their party even when their party is violating the rights of individuals.

But yes I have seen you arguing that individuals that you disagree with should have their rights curtailed.

No — that has never been the case, so don’t try to lie.

Unless you’re claiming the way that these religious fascists always do that gay person being allowed to have the same rights that they enjoy means an automatic infringement on the holy sanctity of their religion and very existence?
Because in that case, yeah, I’m all for the “curtailment” of what they consider “their rights” which they actually think should be allowed to take precedence over another person’s life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

People are free, in this country, to be WRONG. As long as they don’t violate another’s rights.

Right. And that is exactly what the religious fascists are doing — and not just violating their rights through daily displays of discrimination, but actively and intentionally denying these people their civil and legal rights.

Show me the time and place where I have ‘sucked up’ to ANYONE

Right here.

But anyone who is against equal rights is more than free to support Chick-Fil-A and buy some food from them today, it makes it very clear to the rest of us who supports what… And I know who I can count on to support my rights when they need to be supported…

Don’t worry, I’ll still support yours… Just because someone is wrong that doesn’t mean they should lose their rights.

Sucking up to the Fascists. Stupid. Insane.

No — that has never been the case, so don’t try to lie.

No lying. I’m sure you will disagree, but I can pull some examples out if you like. Like wanting to repeal free speech of groups of individuals (citizens united) is just one example…

And that is exactly what the religious fascists are doing — and not just violating their rights through daily displays of discrimination, but actively and intentionally denying these people their civil and legal rights.

And when that happens, they should be dealt with by the laws that protect those individuals. But they still don’t lose THEIR rights then. Even murderers are still awarded their rights…

Right here.

I am only going to assume that you misread I wrote… There was no ‘sucking up’ going on here, but perhaps you missed the irony I was displaying…

Let me parse it for you.

But anyone who is against equal rights is more than free to support Chick-Fil-A and buy some food from them today

This is pretty simple, are you saying that people should NOT be free to support Chick-Fil-A by buying their food as a demonstration of their support? I don’t really think you think that, but if you have a problem with me saying that perhaps I am wrong…

it makes it very clear to the rest of us who supports what…

Here I am telling those people that by going to Chick-Fil-A and buying their food, they are publicly showing us who is ‘against’ gay marriage and I can then identify those who look to limit the rights of those people who are gay and want to enjoy the same rights as the heterosexual partners… They are ‘outing’ themselves. It’s a backhanded, passive/aggressive dig…. Perhaps you missed it?

And I know who I can count on to support my rights when they need to be supported…

Meaning, I can’t count on them since they are ok with denying other’s rights that they disagree with…

Don’t worry, I’ll still support yours… Just because someone is wrong that doesn’t mean they should lose their rights.

I’m not sure why you don’t see the slam here and instead consider it ‘sucking up’, but this is a ‘superiority’ statement, telling them that I think they are wrong and ‘beneath me’ as knuckle-dragging luddites, but I will still support their rights…

So perhaps it was a bit too nuanced or passive/aggressive, perhaps you are just in an emotional state where you missed it, I don’t know. But no, there was no ‘sucking up’ going on here…

Does anyone who is reading this who is against gay marriage think I was ‘sucking up’ to you with those comments?

Frank,
I got out of the hospital a few weeks ago after having had a partial removal of my colon. Well the bills have started to arrive.

Apparently, I owe just the hospital nearly $85,000. My insurance will pick up $33,000. I already pay $1300 dollars for my insurance a month anyway because I have a mild thyroid condition, which is a PER-EXISTING condition. I take a low dose of synthrod. Some per-existing condition.

My question to you Frank, is how am I supposed to pay everyone else too, let alone pay the blasted $55000?

Would you please explain to me why the Republican Party HATES ‘Obama care’ so much? It simply makes no logical sense to hate something that will make other people lives’ easier to live. Without having to change your own life. If you don’t wan to change your insurance, YOU don’t have too. I DO! Why can’t I have the same options and choices as you? Why can’t I shop around and find the best price?

It’s not as if it’s mandatory to drop your own insurance. It only allows those of us who can’t get insurance to be able to hopefully afford it. After all, no one knows just how high the per-existing insurance will run. It may prove to be too high for most people to afford it.

Even so, I know I will struggle to pay my bills. But I will pay them, assuming I live long enough. I live on a fixed income, and don’t have a lot of leeway when it comes to my finances, but I’ve invested fairly well - I just hope I don’t have to close out all my retirement (what’s left of it) to pay for ONE 8 day stay in the hospital, and emergency surgery.

I HAVE to live forever, I can’t afford to get sick!

BTW,

Adrienne, I’m one of the women you speak of who is happy about the new health benefits for women, although, Rhinehold has a point - “there is no such thing as a free lunch.”

Of course it could be he’s just pissed his Viagra is no longer the only ‘free’ medication regarding sex.

Angel1

People “hate” the ACA because it is a government mandate that takes away rights of individuals and will eventually lead to total government run health care. Such government control over its people is fine for Europeans, but not for our nation that was founded on the principles of individual freedoms and limited government.

“It simply makes no logical sense to hate something that will make other people lives’ easier to live.”

That depends on how you define it. Some believe it is our individual rights that make it “easier to live” because they make us free. Others believe being pampered and provided for is what makes their life “easier to live.”
The comfort and desires of one person does not trump the rights of all others.

“Without having to change your own life.”

Sorry, but you are wrong about this. We no longer have a choice and that changes our lives greatly. Our premiums and taxes will go up to pay for all of these “free” things and losing that money will affect our lives greatly.

“If you don’t want to change your insurance, YOU don’t have too. I DO! Why can’t I have the same options and choices as you? Why can’t I shop around and find the best price?”

If you don’t want insurance, you are forced to get insurance. That is a change. If your employer can save money but no longer offering insurance, they will. That is a change. Rising premiums and taxes will make it so many cannot afford to keep paying for two policies and they will drop their private insurance.

And, as you are well aware, you do have the same options and choices to shop around for the best price. As a woman, you use your insurance more often, so of course you should pay more, and a pre-existing makes you a higher risk, so you should pay more for that also. Proper planning throughout your life would have helped supplement the extra costs for such plans.

NOBODY lives forever. EVERYBODY gets sick. We ALL should plan.
We can’t afford to lose our individual rights.

kctim….”people” don’t hate the new insurance law….unless of course, you consider women to be non-people, which would fall nicely into place with a lot of the other considerations toward the female gender.
You simply hate anything that emerges connected to President Obama. So it means nothing that a LOT of people can now afford their better health and wellness, who could not do it before. You’re all disgusting.

Angel wrote; “It simply makes no logical sense to hate something that will make other people lives’ easier to live.”

Kctim gave a great rebuttal of that sentence by writing; “The comfort and desires of one person does not trump the rights of all others.”

Making life “easier” for some at the expense of others is not an idea or concept found anywhere in our founding documents. It represents a desire to attain something material without paying for it.

I believe we all have an obligation to our fellow citizens to provide food, clothing and shelter for those incapable of providing those necessities for themselves. The key word here is “incapable”.

If one is receiving aid from government through taxes collected from others there should be some form of work required of those capable of performing work. Community work is not demeaning or harsh or a punishment. It is labor performed in return for something of material value.

Millions of our senior citizens volunteer their labor to churches, hospitals, highway cleanup crews, charitable organizations and more with no expectation of any return of material value.

So, apparently jane doe is admitting that all women think the same way… I had always thought that women were made up of all different kinds of thoughts, needs, feelings, morals, desires, etc… but apparently I was wrong and they are all just the same.

Who knew?

The premium for long-term health care and life insurance is substantially lower for women than men. Should women demand that the premiums they pay for those insurance products rise to equal what men pay?

jane doe, HighlandAngel asked:

“Would you please explain to me why the Republican Party HATES ‘Obama care’ so much?”

I cannot speak for the Republican Party, but I can explain what I have been told by others and what I know.
I gave examples of what is wrong with this terrible policy to show why I believe so many are against it. It is about terrible policy, not Obama.

Spare me the “you hate women,” BS. My treating you as an equal does not mean I hate you. My respecting you as an individual does not mean I hate you.

“So it means nothing that a LOT of people can now afford their better health and wellness, who could not do it before”

EVERY individual lost a part of the freedom of choice with the ACA. EVERY business person has lost their freedom to run their business as they see best. EVERY responsible individual will see their taxes and premiums go up in order to pay for this travesty.

Forgive me for being more concerned about the rights of EVERY individual than I am about the perks of a few.

Angel1

“My question to you Frank, is how am I supposed to pay everyone else too, let alone pay the blasted $55000?”

Probably the same way I paid off my 1 ton Dodge Ram Diesel truck, with a sticker price of $51,000; one payment at a time. I don’t mean to sound heartless, but we all have decisions to make in life. I made the decisions based upon the future and as a result, I’m retired, live comfortably, and have HC insurance. As for your next question:

“Would you please explain to me why the Republican Party HATES ‘Obama care’ so much?”

Why…because healthcare is not a right. We have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The role of Government to create an equal playing field to these rights; I hate obamacare because it is an infringement on the rights of other to pay for rights you don’t have. You speak of obamacare, as if it is some simple, inexpensive benefit for the downtrodden of America, but it’s not. Obamacare is a stepping stone to a government run healthcare system, whose fees and taxes will continue to rise, while benefits and healthcare will continue to decline. It is an intrusion on America’s freedoms.

“Without having to change your own life. If you don’t wan to change your insurance, YOU don’t have too. I DO! Why can’t I have the same options and choices as you? Why can’t I shop around and find the best price?

It’s not as if it’s mandatory to drop your own insurance. It only allows those of us who can’t get insurance to be able to hopefully afford it. After all, no one knows just how high the per-existing insurance will run. It may prove to be too high for most people to afford it.”

You have no idea what you are talking about; it is a change in my own life simply because I will be taxed to pay for someone else’s insurance. It is a change in my life to force me to change insurance or doctors. Why can’t you have the same options??? You can, and you can pay for them just like I did.

There are hundreds of companies dropping the insurance of their employees, as we speak. Why, because if they don’t, they will have to pay huge fines to the government. I would ask you a question: why did Obama give waivers to union companies and not require them to meet the same stringent laws as non-union companies?

Other than that, I am in complete agreement with kctim and Royal Flush.

Let me make one more statement to this question:

“Would you please explain to me why the Republican Party HATES ‘Obama care’ so much?”

A consistent 55-60% of Americans have been against Obamacare ever since it was passed; what you are saying is that 55-60% of Americans are republican and if that’s true, then Obama doesn’t have a chance in the 2012 elections.

The truth is 55-60% of Americans are not Republican; so what we have is a bi-partisan groups of Americans who hate Obamacare, and not just Republicans.

Jane doe:

“You simply hate anything that emerges connected to President Obama…. You’re all disgusting.”

Posted by: jane doe at August 2, 2012 1:07 PM

Obama is a Socialist, who is trying his best to destroy America; what do you think that we should love him and his socialist goals. Sorry lady, but I swore to an oath many years ago to protect America from all enemies, “foreign and domestic”. That oath is not rescinded, and the Constitution is still the same document.

Kctim,

Emergency medical care for life threatening conditions is not a constitutional right. However, we as a society have imposed a legal obligation on virtually all hospitals to provide such care without regard to ability to pay. We simply are not willing to let an uninsured die in the streets.

That is the reality within which we debate this ACA soft tax code mandate for individuals and families to purchase health insurance coverage.

Under those circumstances, conservatives, like Romney, once made the argument that if society is willing to obligate itself to expend its resources to provide whatever emergency medical care is necessary, it is a reciprocal obligation of each individual to contribute a fair share toward that benefit. In other words, not to be a “free rider” on society.

To me, it is a powerful argument and consistent with long held conservatives views that individuals should accept certain obligations in return for a social contract benefit.

The current conservative mantra about the ACA taking away freedoms by mandating health insurance might make some sense if it was also accompanied with a waiver for legally required emergency medical care if needed. Fine, you can avoid the “mandate” if you agree to waive any emergency care that you are unable to afford. Any takers?

“The current conservative mantra about the ACA taking away freedoms by mandating health insurance might make some sense if it was also accompanied with a waiver for legally required emergency medical care if needed. Fine, you can avoid the “mandate” if you agree to waive any emergency care that you are unable to afford. Any takers?”

Posted by: Rich at August 2, 2012 8:21 PM

Yes, I will bite; the uninsured have had the right to emergency medical care for many years. My daughter worked in the billing department of a hospital in Missouri about 20 years ago, while supporting he husband who was in college. The hospital had a policy of setting up minimal payments for those who had to have medical procedures. After a period of time, usually a year or so, the bills were forgiven and the debt was cancelled.

Secondly, there is a reason that many hospitals were organized by religious organization, i.e. Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc; these were charitable Christian organizations that took care of the health of people, even if they were poor.

Government mandates and the lack of illegal alien control have bankrupt many of these hospitals, especially in the southwestern Border States. So the “legally required emergency medical care” became required for the illegals as well. Which broke the system. Another example of big government imposing their laws on society.

You see, this is the great lie of the left; that anywhere from 20 to 30 million are uninsured (depending on which politician is lying on a particular day), but what these lying politicians fail to tell is: how many are illegal aliens and how many could buy insurance, but don’t want to. That number would be a much smaller percentage of the public. The $5 trillion tax payer dollars that Obama has managed to shit away would have more than covered the cost of insurance to the whole country. But it’s about power and control. It’s about politician’s control of the money, and of determining who and who not receives medical care.

Rich
The key word in your post is “emergency.” Of course we as a society do not want uninsured people to die in the streets, the rhetoric that that is what pro individual rights people want is nothing but fear based propaganda.

The problem is not that we help those who need help, but rather that we take advantage of the legal obligation you mentioned.
Many of the people who use the ER as their doctors office choose not have insurance. Many never even try to pay their bill. Almost all see no reason to save for such an emergency.
IF we wish to have an honest debate and deal with reality, then we have to start with why people choose to not have insurance, why they choose not to pay for services and why they do not save for emergencies.
Starting from the point of “free” care does nothing but encourage this irresponsible behavior.

Our obligation is to help those in need, not those who choose to be in need.

“…Fine, you can avoid the “mandate” if you agree to waive any emergency care that you are unable to afford. Any takers?”

I always get a chuckle when people make this statement. You guys know darn well that the system would fold in on itself if you offered such a choice. That is why you have to use government mandate to force compliance until dependence is reached.

What I want to know is how giving people a choice to avoid the mandate any different than people having the choice to have insurance or not, like we had before the ACA?

“What I want to know is how giving people a choice to avoid the mandate any different than people having the choice to have insurance or not, like we had before the ACA?”

Kctim,

It would not be unless we decided to deny medical care to those who are unable to afford treatment, life threatening emergency or not. That is the essence of the free rider argument which the mandate is intended to address.

Emergency medical care for those unable to pay is not a right. It is a recent phenomena passed on the federal level in 1986 in response to a growing practice of “patient dumping” by hospitals. It is a requirement only as a condition for receiving Medicare reimbursement.

The emergency medical care received is not free. Everybody is charged for the care and hospital liens are issued to collect the unpaid charges. Of course, you can’t get blood from a stone and substantial sums are never collected resulting in the costs being shifted to the government, increased premiums for insured or charity contributions.

What you seem to either miss or deliberately obfuscate is the fact that we are all paying for somebody’s emergency medical care.

Now, if you wish to continue paying for everybody else that doesn’t want to purchase health insurance when they have a serious accident, then continue with your opposition to the “mandate.”

In my opinion, it is a curious conservative argument.

Equality
or Fate?
The History will Lead us to where we should go. And the history is always marching forward, the society always makes progress, slow or fast, easy or difficult. So the new normal maybe not a threathen. Since we realise how to do, we will be successful in acheving our goals.

kctim

And, as you are well aware, you do have the same options and choices to shop around for the best price.

You obviously didn’t read my comment. I have NO choices when it comes to choosing insurance. It’s either the State of SC, or no one!

As a woman, you use your insurance more often, so of course you should pay more, and a pre-existing makes you a higher risk, so you should pay more for that also.

As for women using their insurance more than men, I must differ with you. My husband uses his insurance far more often than I. He has diabetes 2, high cholesterol, as well as high blood pressure. I have none of these problems. My insurance rate is over four times his, but he has many more problems than I do.

Proper planning throughout your life would have helped supplement the extra costs for such plans. NOBODY lives forever. EVERYBODY gets sick. We ALL should plan.

Who the heck are YOU to insinuate I didn’t plan properly!!!!! You Know little to nothing about me. You have no idea what I may or may not have planned for.

We can’t afford to lose our individual rights.

And I can’t afford to die because I can’t afford my insurance either. Nor can I afford to lose my house because of an medical emergency. Would you rather I be on the dole system, and let the government, (i.e. taxpayers) have to absorb the entire cost of my illness, which has now gone up to over $160,000+? Just my part.

Royal Flush wrote:

The premium for long-term health care and life insurance is substantially lower for women than men. Should women demand that the premiums they pay for those insurance products rise to equal what men pay?

I want some of your insurance!!! I have always paid more than either of my two husbands, and used it less. I would dearly love to pay the same premiums my husband pays. He pays $360 a month. I pay over $1300 a mouth. And btw,I got a notice yesterday -it’s going up to $1600 in October. My husband has diabetes 2, high blood pressure and high cholesterol. I take synthyroid for a mild thyroid problem. NOTHING else.

Frank wrote

Probably the same way I paid off my 1 ton Dodge Ram Diesel truck, with a sticker price of $51,000; one payment at a time. I don’t mean to sound heartless, but we all have decisions to make in life. I made the decisions based upon the future and as a result, I’m retired, live comfortably, and have HC insurance.

I sincerely hope you enjoyed being able to pick out your truck. I have no such opportunity. I did NOT CHOOSE to have am emergency colon removal. I made decisions for my future, but heaven help you if you really need to come up with cash in a hurry. Hospitals don’t generally negotiate. Neither do the insurance companies I have to try to deal with. I and grateful I can pay, although it will take me a while. Of course, I could have just dropped my expensive coverage, and let the tax payers pick up my now $160,000+ bill.

To all of you:
Since all you tend to be self-centered and selfish, I suppose I really should wish that you have a major medical problem and have to sell your houses, trucks. or lose all your savings because of one major medical problem. However, I’m just not that heartless, so I wish you all good health for the rest of your lives. May it be long and and without any medical emergencies.

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