Democrats & Liberals Archives

Me to Allen West: I'm Staying Put, Mister.

Really. Some people think they can have this country all to themselves. They wrap themselves in the flag and think, my, aren’t we so good and virtuous that we can tell the rest of those barbarians what to do. Well my country’s democracy, it’s republic is built on taking a pin to that particular egotistical balloon of an idea. You don’t like having to deal with us? Sorry, there’s nothing you can do about it, and I can’t be happier!

You have only to look at the past ten years to see the fragility of political dominance. Of course we hate that, because the other side is wrong. We believe that. And some of us believe this so blindly, so ardently, that we're willing to say some very mean and nasty things to other people we can't back up.

I could tell Allen West in turn to leave this country, but do you know what? He's a free American citizen. I couldn't tell him crap and make him do it. I'd be just flapping my gums.

The real problem in what he says isn't that it's inherently dangerous or all that effective, but that it gives some people the idea that this is a worthy political goal. There is a totalitarian impulse there, whatever party might express it, one that is unworthy of anybody to consider. Rather than win by persuasion or by honest competition in an election, Allen West's notion is that those who dissent from his views ought to simply disappear, be excluded, since he's got such a problem with it.

But you know what? Anything he believes could be wrong. The big reason why Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others is simply that human beings are universally fallible. The strength of our beliefs is no insurance against our error. In fact, it usually works the other way around. And no, that's not some abstract observation, but a hard-won bit of experience on my part. By my nature I'm black and white about what I believe, so I need to be careful to stick to the facts, because I know how far off the green I can get with my shots.

Allen West? He and other conservatives strongly believe things about us that I would hardly believe of a James Bond villain. We want to promote small business (which suffered greatly under Bush and the GOP) We want to promote the equality of opportunity; the equality, superiority or inferiority of achievement is up to your own talents and inclinations.

As for economic dependency? We want the opposite. We've learned from our policy mistakes. We're not looking for people to remain on government assistance forever. In fact, we want them to get jobs, want them to be independent.

The problem here is that Allen West and other Republicans, right-wing pundits and voters are operating from an argument whose basic premises come right out of the party's propaganda.

If a liberal is evil, what good is moderating your opposition to them? If they are depraved, what good is letting them have their freedom? Where they are stupid you are not motivated to trust their judgment, where they are foolish, why believe their wisdom?

Steeped in all the negative stuff, it's no wonder some feel like Allen West. Unfortunately, it's nowhere near true, and it's also confounding their own party's judgment.

I mean, think about it in these terms: if we're right about a given subject, if we have a point, then ideally you should either work towards agreement with us, or you should figure out things for yourself, and make another good point (not every problem has only one possible solution.)

If you do not determine things objectively, if you're more concerned about being on the other side of a subject, and being "right" on that account, then I'm sorry, you're going to be wrong a lot of the time, and right only by luck. We have only to look at the budget situation to understand that. Republicans, nowadays, try to insist that tax cuts are necessary to improve the economy. However, the economy didn't improve, and most people's economic outlook went down in the years leading up to the crisis. Despite some of the largest tax cuts in history, Bush's job creation numbers were the worst since WWII, when they started keeping track.

GOP policy has gotten strained on that front, all tax cuts, no tax raising. I think it's all because of what happened to Bush. Unfortunately, people took what was an ill-conceived promise for a President running a deficit, and took it to heart as a viable political strategy. His son learned his father's lesson, but learned it too well. What was once a set of options for the GOP became an addiction to one option, one that helped create a deficit where the previous deficit had been undone.

But what if we need things otherwise? In some forms of government, we would see the strain simply build up, the government BSing everybody about whether something was working, and nobody able to do anything to get them to admit the problem, much less take care of the problem. This strained state of affairs is what helps bring down governments, or turn them tyrannical in their measures to maintain power.

We have a release valve on this, when we in the majority (I'm thinking any majority- imagine one you'd fit in) are wrong. What happens is that another majority develops among the people, who say, "change things, we've had enough." Now it isn't always clean, but sooner or later, these things get pushed through, and the tension is released.

I've seen it happen before, and I see it happening now. It may not be perfect or painless, but it makes me proud of my country to see it happen. We are not doomed to a decline into foolishness and stupidity, into corruption and decay. We have recourse. We just have to dump this inferiority complex we've developed, one where we look at everybody else and blame them for our lot in life, rather than realize that we really haven't been standing up for our own interests.

People have lost their morale about their democracy, about their people, told for too many years that we're in decline, a modern day Babylon and Rome ripe for destruction. Too much of the rhetoric seems to be aimed at disheartening people about current conditions, or blaming somebody else for it, rather than actually solving the problems. And as the problems pile up, the whole mess seems insoluble, and we wait for some leader, some party, some movement to save us.

We really shouldn't. This is our Democracy, ours together, and we really should learn to save ourselves. Rather than lament the lack of smart, wise people, we should endeavor to be smart and wise. Rather than lament the maturity of people in this country, we should stop waiting for others to grow up, and do so ourselves. Rather than hope that the other half of the country will take a hike, we should acknowledge that this isn't going to happen, and then decide to talk about all this like adults, not like a bunch of children button pushing and lamenting that we're not the ones in charge. We are. We just have to be in charge with everybody else, not just by ourselves.

We need to learn a little bit of what we call, "the social graces."

Posted by Stephen Daugherty at January 30, 2012 7:49 AM
Comments
Comment #335329
The problem here is that Allen West and other Republicans, right-wing pundits and voters are operating from an argument whose basic premises come right out of the party’s propaganda.

That is only the tip of the iceberg IMHO Stephen. Conservatives in general feel entitled. They feel they have been cheated by those evil librul’s that foiled their plans during the ‘90’s. That is why hate is so rampant in conservative circles. They thought they had won the war with the Reagan revolution and the contract on America. They thought their propaganda had destroyed the enemy librul’s in this country. But their leaders in the movement knew these enemies were needed and couldn’t be cast aside.

The conservative movement followers have not realized the trick played on them by movement leaders. Guys like west with these nonsensical outbursts are just keeping the troops motivated and in the dark. Keeping them to busy hating to think. It has worked for them for years with the gullible and unquestioning movement followers.

The problem conservative leaders have is were it not for these liberals they would have no one to blame the problems created by conservative ideology and leadership on. Blaming the problems on Russia or China? Would conservatives actually believe internal policies were the fault of the Chinese and/or Russians when the economy collapsed and we finished the downward race to third world status? There has to be a point where even conservatives would see through the foolishness, right?

Hopped up on hate, these conservatives blindly and obediently follow any story, even embellishing the story, from the talk radio “patriots” to fellow movement followers. Reason and logic are not needed when your followers are fooled so easy by hatred.

Posted by: j2t2 at January 30, 2012 11:22 AM
Comment #335332

I’ve heard Mitt Romney use this lame line of attack on anyone who thinks that the current economic environment to amass wealth by any means should move to Cuba, China, or North Korea, or that anyone who has a general policy disagreement should leave the country. It’s a demonstration of immaturity at least and un-American at worst. Anyone who thinks that the solution to those with a different point of view than you do on substantive issues is to say, “go away,” is the product of a weak and underdeveloped mind. This country, and republics and democracies in general were created to take the views of all of the people into consideration when making policy and work through differences not to deport those who believe differently. People who say things like that are the ones who are behaving in a way that authoritarian systems do, not dissenters.

It is childish to be so egocentric that you can only comprehend one way of doing things as these people do. It is childish to deal with disagreements be telling the other person to “go away.” Allen West and Mitt Romney should be forced to go back to Kindergarten where these lessons in life are taught.

Posted by: tcsned at January 30, 2012 12:19 PM
Comment #335336

It has been often said that the thing liberals protest the most is the very thing of which they are guilty. Everything that Stephen Daugherty, j2t2, or tcsned has said is the very things Obama and liberals have said. Obama and the liberals have spent the past 3 years dividing America with class envy. The OWS have proven themselves to resort to violence and civil disobedience. In fact, the only violence committed has been done by the left union thugs an OWS. I ask again, show us a link where the Tea Party Rallies ever resorted to violence or where the police ever had to dress in riot gear and use tear gas? Allen West is an American patriot and a hero; he has been in the trenches defending the rights that liberals enjoy. If anyone has the right to ask these traitorous socialists to leave the country it is Allen West. Obama is a Muslim traitor bent on destroying the country and Reid and Pelosi are a festering disease.

Stephen Daugherty’s entire post is nothing more than a rage of his personal beliefs, based on his own vilolent beliefs, and is disgusting and all of it built upon the comments of an American hero. The left is a scourge on America and if allowed to have their way will turn America into another European failed state.

Posted by: Bill at January 30, 2012 2:21 PM
Comment #335340

Allen West was discharged from the military with an Article 15. An Article 15 is NOT good. West brought dishonor upon the service.

Posted by: phx8 at January 30, 2012 2:35 PM
Comment #335343
It has been often said that the thing liberals protest the most is the very thing of which they are guilty.
And it has been even more often proven by example that conservatives protest most that for which they are guilty, Bill so what’s your point?
Everything that Stephen Daugherty, j2t2, or tcsned has said is the very things Obama and liberals have said. Obama and the liberals have spent the past 3 years dividing America with class envy.

Obama is much more eloquent than I am Bill. When has he spoken of the conservative movement and their feeling of entitlement to the political power in this country.

Allen West is an American patriot and a hero; he has been in the trenches defending the rights that liberals enjoy. If anyone has the right to ask these traitorous socialists to leave the country it is Allen West.

Wrong Bill very wrong. As a member of the military he has defended the same rights he is now demanding we forfeit. He deserves credit for his service but this service does not entitle him to demand others that he disagrees with politically get out of the country. In fact as a officer in the military and an elected representative the last thing he should do is insist others leave this country. In fact as a representative of the United States he has disgraced the country with this comment. He has sworn to uphold the constitution and the last time I looked “liberals must leave the country” wasn’t part of the constitution. He has agreed to represent all the people in his district not just some, something Obama tells us on a regular basis. He and you should be ashamed of yourselves for this comment.

But thanks Bill for proving my previous comment. The leadership says “liberals get the hell out of the country” the followers, in this case you Bill, then claim these very same people to be “traitorous socialists” thereby embellishing the comments with an obvious hatred. Like I said “Guys like west with these nonsensical outbursts are just keeping the troops motivated and in the dark. Keeping them to busy hating to think. It has worked for them for years with the gullible and unquestioning movement followers.”

Time to question your principles Bill?


Obama is a Muslim traitor bent on destroying the country and Reid and Pelosi are a festering disease.

Unfounded accusations which have become conservative myths being perpetrated by movement followers simply because of their hatred. Spreading outright lies, misinformation and mythinformation Bill is conservative stock in trade but it is really no way to chose our political leaders.
Yet while making these false claims conservatives elect representatives to government office that pledge allegiance to a special interest group that demands they shrink government so they can frown it in the bathtub. Worse the leader of this group has been accused by fellow conservatives to be involved in Muslim groups and therefore bent on destroying our way of life. Time to stop hating Bill and start thinking for yourself.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/10/norquist-calls-attacks-from-gop.html

Posted by: j2t2 at January 30, 2012 2:59 PM
Comment #335344

That’s funny phx8 because when I googled Allen West it said he retired from the military and his last command he recieved the bronze star and three meritorious service commendations. Discharge and Retireing are 2 different things so what liberal trash talk article did you get your info????????

Posted by: KAP at January 30, 2012 3:03 PM
Comment #335345

KAP
It was an incident in Iraq where West used so-called excessive force to get information concerning ambushes of him and his troops.
He accepted the Art. 15 (minor disciplinary offense) and retired with full benefits and awards.

Posted by: kctim at January 30, 2012 3:08 PM
Comment #335348

KAP-
You really don’t know your fellow, do you?

Allen West Detained and assaulted an Iraqi police officer, even firing a gun besides his head during the course of an interrogation. This incompetent interrogation was performed without any experience, even second hand, of how to properly question a suspspect, and resulted in no plans or weapons being uncovered, though that was West’s intentions.

Now he would say all kinds of things about his loyalty to his soldiers, and whatever else, but the man’s judgment was poor even by his own admission. His actions nearly got him court martialed, and he was indeed charged with violating two parts of the UCMJ, the law that governs our soldiers overseas. He retired after accepting article 15 punishment for what he did.

These are the facts, yet you want to call this liberal trash talk. It’s not. It’s the reality of what he did. You can use however many question marks you feel are necessary to get your point across, but that stuff is on his record, along with his other commendations.

Should we ignore just those facts that make it inconvenient for Republicans to support people? Should we rationalize criminal behavior, rationalize corruption so the Republicans, who believe themselves indispensable, can continue to gain power?

What he said was despicable, and it dishonored the millions of Americans who served their country and came home to vote as Democrats. They fought for freedom in this country, or so they were told.

This is my country as much as it is yours, as much as it is his.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at January 30, 2012 3:35 PM
Comment #335349

Thanks kctim phx8 made it sound like he killed a bunch of innocent civilians or other horrorendous thing. I think I would have used the same tactics if me and my troops were being ambushed.

Posted by: KAP at January 30, 2012 3:39 PM
Comment #335350

Stephen, I could care less about West he is Florida’s concern, I have enough with the stupid UFO Believeing Democrat representing my district.

Posted by: KAP at January 30, 2012 3:43 PM
Comment #335351

SD wrote; “People have lost their morale about their democracy, about their people, told for too many years that we’re in decline, a modern day Babylon and Rome ripe for destruction. Too much of the rhetoric seems to be aimed at disheartening people about current conditions, or blaming somebody else for it, rather than actually solving the problems. And as the problems pile up, the whole mess seems insoluble, and we wait for some leader, some party, some movement to save us.”

Nope, the people I know haven’t lost their morale about democracy or capitalism. Perhaps you were thinking about Carter when you write about “decline” and “ripe for destruction”. Well buddy, along came President Reagan and threw out the gloom and doom of Carterism and put America back on course to greatness.

Now we have obama and his only solution to our problems are…spend now, spend more, tax more. He has been blaming Bush and Reps for our troubles the entire time of his presidency. Perhaps you haven’t noticed, but millions of voters have.

Liberals can’t seem to lead, can’t seem to follow…what’s left, get the hell out.

Posted by: Royal Flush at January 30, 2012 3:51 PM
Comment #335352

This is my country as much as it is yours, as much as it is his.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at January 30, 2012

When is the last time SD put on the uniform of his country? When is the last time SD placed his life on the line for his fellow citizens? When is the last time SD did anything patriotic for his country that wasn’t in his own self interest?

SD doesn’t know a damn thing about what it means to serve one’s country in uniform in places of great peril. SD is frothing at the mouth about his imaginings about patriotism while sitting in his little dark room feverishly rapping at his keyboard in safety and comfort while heroic men and women defend the right of fools.

Thank God for our military and men like Allen West.

Posted by: Royal Flush at January 30, 2012 4:05 PM
Comment #335353

Bill-

It has been often said that the thing liberals protest the most is the very thing of which they are guilty.

Is that what you say instead of actually offering evidence?

Sometimes people object because something strikes them as wrong. I went to Baylor University, and found many of the people there, conservatives or otherwise, to be nice and charming people. It changed my perspective on a lot of things, including religion.

I do agree with Obama a lot. I noticed the guy as a man to watch when he talked about unifying the country, rather than continuing to divide it on religious, political, and economic terms.

As for dividing the country with class envy?

I just want to stop you right there, because you follow such blatant appeals to the wrong of dividing people for political purposes by committing that very wrong.

Muslim Traitor? No real evidence backs that claim, on either count, but it’s an odd choice of description. A person is either a traitor, or not a traitor. Whether they are Muslim is immaterial, that is unless you wish to say that this makes this worse. Why?

Well, it’s practically staring us in the face. Are you calling him a terrorist sympathizer? The man who ordered the raid that killed Bin Laden, who’s taken predator drones to many of the top lieutenants of al-Qaeda?

Ever since 9/11, there have been those in the Republican Party who have fostered paranoia against Muslims in this country for their own political benefit. You have done this here, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

We have our own compliment of soldiers in our ranks, veterans of Iraq and Afghanistant, Vietnam, Korea, and WWII. You have no business claiming that because Allen West served his country, he can dictate travel plans to those he disagrees with. Americans of all political stripes have fought for the freedom of all, not just those who hold the political beliefs you believe are correct.

You started by saying that what liberals protest most, they do themselves. Well, you unfortunately followed that by basically unloading your rage on us, calling our President a traitor in a rather bigoted way, calling the left a scourge on this country, bent on making this country fail, calling my beliefs violence when I’ve advocated nothing but non-violent methods for dealing with political disputes.

And despite my lack of respect for them, I have yet to call Mitch McConnell or John Boehner festering diseases.

I suggest you put your own political house in order, and look in the mirror. You really need to to let go of this hatred for Democrats, because hatred is no man’s true servant, and a master that makes a slave of all who indulge it.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at January 30, 2012 4:16 PM
Comment #335354

Stephen, I don’t think telling people they are idiots who wrap themselves in the flag and listen to propaganda is going to get the ‘we are all in this together’ response you alluded to. Especially since those on the right just went through this for 8 years from the left about Bush, and more recently, for daring to question The obama.

Posted by: kctim at January 30, 2012 4:18 PM
Comment #335355
When is the last time SD put on the uniform of his country? When is the last time SD placed his life on the line for his fellow citizens? When is the last time SD did anything patriotic for his country that wasn’t in his own self interest?

Royal with that kind of logic you would excuse Hitler as he served his country as well. Seems conservatives are unable or unwilling to separate the service from the later actions of the person.

Thank God for our military and men like Allen West.

Agreed kinda, thank god for the military, including the Allen West’s amongst us, screw fascist authoritarians like Allen West.

Posted by: j2t2 at January 30, 2012 4:41 PM
Comment #335356

Royal Flush,

“When is the last time SD put on the uniform of his country?”

Since when did it become necessary to join the armed forces to have a say as to what happens in America.

Cheney didn’t, Limbaugh didn’t, and Gingrich certainly didn’t.
So it’s OK for these vaunted icons of the right to speak their minds without the benefit of military training but not for Stephen.

You want a definition of hypocrisy, there you go.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at January 30, 2012 4:55 PM
Comment #335357

Hitler didn’t serve his country he served his own self interrest as any Dictator does, j2. I would like to know how you or Stephen would act if you and your troops were continually ambushed? When you get in that position tells us about it.

Posted by: KAP at January 30, 2012 4:55 PM
Comment #335358

KAP,

“Hitler didn’t serve his country he served his own self interrest as any Dictator does, j2.”

Hitler was in the German army, during WW1, and was awarded the Iron Cross twice for bravery.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at January 30, 2012 5:00 PM
Comment #335359

KAP-
You’ve watched too many movies. People give good information when they’re interrogated that way because somebody writes the information they give up.

Let’s say somebody invaded your home, kidnapped you, and interrogated you at gunpoint. Let’s say they believed you were part of some plot. If they fired that gun beside your head, would you tell them no?

One of the main reasons we don’t torture is that you can get any kind of information you want out of a torture victim, including the whole host of basically wrong information. People use such techniques in re-education camps and Kangaroo courts in order to get compliance, to get people who to say what they want them to say, think like they want them to think.

And, as I mentioned, he got no cache of guns, no plans. If one actually existed, he completely botched things.

Yet you rationalize this, probably because getting tough is supposed to show how courageous of a leader you are. Well, the main was his detainee, his prisoner, maybe not even on a legal basis. He may have been tied up. The guy wasn’t a soldier out there in the field, firing back at him, he was stuck in an interrogation room, unarmed, with a man who just fired a pistol right by his ear.

That it might have been well-intentioned doesn’t make it right, good, or behavior you should repeat.

The whole problem with your model of things is that you take no account of human fallibility, that West could be wrong, that he could be the wrong man to have tried to interrogate the man, that his actions may have just been a blue-on-blue assault on somebody who was his ally in his country. There’s something poisonous about the assumption that a person in government is right simply on basis of their charisma or authority. Even the best leaders can be wrong, and need to be able to admit it in order to resolve their mistakes.

Royal Flush-
I’m an American Citizen. I never served in the military. I do not have to answer to you for that, since I spent my time getting my education, like my family wanted me to, and then getting a job so I could help put food on the table, a necessity that became greater over time, unfortunately.

I don’t regret not serving. My family needed my help. I wouldn’t tell my future children, though, not to go into the military, as I am the grandson of a proud American soldier. While I did not serve, I advocated for our soldiers to get the armor, the ammunition, the strategy, and the base facilities necessary to serve our country well, and to get the help they need for whatever wounds, in mind or body, they carried home.

I got into this business of blogging because I saw my country get dragged into a war I later found out wasn’t so necessary as I was told. They bungled the war, and made decisions that made the resolution of this war an ambiguous achievement at best, and got many Americans soldiers killed and maimed needlessly.

Since I was never in the military, and nobody was actively serving in the military in my family, I had no self-interest in this. I simply believed it was wrong, and that we needed a better strategy sooner, the armor as soon as it could be loaded, the better constructed bases and facilities as soon as it could be done. We needed discipline maintained. We should have been paying billions to get soldiers recruited to help relieve our fighting men and women overseas, rather than to pay for a bunch of useless equipment no current war had to have.

The right, in my opinion, got sloppy and arrogant about its ability to fight a war, and unfortunately failed to do its due diligence. When things went wrong though, it’s instead blamed the dissenters, the media, everybody else than themselves, as if their material mistakes didn’t do more to sink morale in the war than any less than glowing report.

I spent a lot of the last eight years being lectured by folks like you about supporting the troops, even as your decisions have left them in greater danger, greater poverty, and greater pain as time has gone on. Your political tactics on this count have disgusted me from the start. What matters most, the political fortune of a politician who couldn’t get his act straight, or the folks who live and die based on his decisions?

I cared about the decisions made, while your people farted around about the politics and the media bias. Your people let things degenerate, dismissing our warnings, failing to take action that could have saved lives, and salvaged the foreign policy mistake that Iraq was.

As for your other post?

Nope, the people I know haven’t lost their morale about democracy or capitalism. Perhaps you were thinking about Carter when you write about “decline” and “ripe for destruction”. Well buddy, along came President Reagan and threw out the gloom and doom of Carterism and put America back on course to greatness.

Nope. Wasn’t thinking about him at all.

You know, arguing like Newt Gingrich won’t help you much with folks like me. You assume so much. I’m a capitalist by inclination, but I think the rules of the system have to at least be neutral when it comes to the financial pressures it puts on different levels of income.

In short, I think the system should be fair. You should not be punished for the mistakes of folks on Wall Street as if you were the one being stupid. You should not be forced to be a sucker to any number of cons cooked up by folks who can’t seem to compete in business unless they’re doing something shady.

And really, we shouldn’t be trading our manufacturing sector to other countries. There is a national security argument, an economic argument, and a social argument to be made for the virtue of keeping manufacturing here, and attracting it here, and paying people good wages.

Folks are going to want things, need things, in our economy. We can either force them to take out debt to do this, or we can have them pay through their regular income. Your people have a problem with unionization, but until you come up with a better way to make sure folks’s interests are seen to, that will have to do.

Really, your people are the ones failing to lead. All you guys can do these days is get in the way. You have no real ideas for how to get us out of this mess. You just hope the country muddles through.

I, though, have no problem with policy that deliberately works for the greater prosperity and quality of life in my country, that makes life fairer and more equitable for the average person in my country.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at January 30, 2012 5:06 PM
Comment #335360

Rocky writes; “Since when did it become necessary to join the armed forces to have a say as to what happens in America.”

I asked questions…Rocky made inferences. The heroics of the keyboard are sickening.

Posted by: Royal Flush at January 30, 2012 5:06 PM
Comment #335361

Hitler didn’t serve his country, he was an Austrian serving in the German Army Rocky. Get your facts straight.

Posted by: KAP at January 30, 2012 5:08 PM
Comment #335362

I love the way the liberals say how much the support the troops. In my opinion, the left along with their messiah leader hate the military. They despise everything the military stands for; hence you find more conservatives in the military fighting for our rights.

Phx8 told an outright lie, because he is either ignorant of military law or is purposely trying to slander Allen West’s name. Or perhaps j2t2 and Stephen Daugherty are just racists and slander West because he is black. I would suggest all the above.

Let me ask you Daughtery, what you would do to protect your family. I won’t ask you about the military because you have never served in the military. You have no idea what it means to go into battle with men you have trained with, and lived with. You have no concept of the closeness of these men. But I will ask you about protecting your family. A terrorist is planning to kill your family, you don’t have the police to protect you, you can’t run to your daddy; but you have captured one of these guys and have the chance to interrogate him. How would you do it Stephen? It’s easy for a do nothing liberal, who has spent his entire life going t school for a liberal arts degree, to sit in the armchair and quarterback. I’ll tell you what is despicable: gutless liberals who have the right of free speech because someone else shed their blood for you t have it. What is your contribution to the great American experiment Daugherty?

I knew a lot of the gutless wonders who say the respect the military and support it, until they have the chance to stab a vetern in the back. When I served, these gutless traitors ran accross the border into Canada. I say love it, or leave it and that goes for the traitorous liberals on WB. If you want to live in France, then by all means go there.

Posted by: Bill at January 30, 2012 5:13 PM
Comment #335363


What West did was basically the same as Abu Ghraib. In that incident, I believe several enlisted personnel were sentenced to prison time and at least one officer’s career was ruined.

Did he try to defend himself in response to the Article 15, My troops were being ambushed seems like a plausible defence. So was this a case of over reaction in the midst of an ambush? I seriously doubt that was the case, but it will work if your plans are to become a conservative politician.

What West did would make him more appealing to conservatives, not less. The ‘I was defending my troops in an ambush’ scenario is a sort of catalyst that alters facts, enabling them bond to beliefs.

I am sure that all conservatives agree that ‘Swift Boating’ would be an acceptable political ploy to use against West in elections. Tie him to the same actions that took place at Abu Ghraib. Put those pictures in the political advertising. bring in a line up of former military personnel to dispute West’s story.

The conservative superiority complex and centralized belief system is nothing new.

Posted by: jlw at January 30, 2012 5:19 PM
Comment #335364

Stephen, The question is, How would you react if put in the same situation? How would you react if you and your troops were getting ambushed continually? Like I said Stephen when you get in that same situation come and tell us about it, otherwise you are just spouting useless talking points.

Posted by: KAP at January 30, 2012 5:20 PM
Comment #335365

I, though, have no problem with policy that deliberately works for the greater prosperity and quality of life in my country, that makes life fairer and more equitable for the average person in my country.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at January 30, 2012

The policy you speak of isn’t promoting “greater prosperity” or “quality of life”. The obama policy you so much admire is simplistic and harmful to the entire country. The policy of spend and tax is socialism leading to communism.

The average person in this country now is on the government dole, is being told by libs to believe that what is in the working man’s pocket should be shared by him/her, and that the good life is governments responsibility and not their own.

This average person you speak of is getting a third-rate education by liberal dominated educators, a third-rate paying job because high taxes and unneeded regulation have sent our jobs elsewhere.

Our military is being downgraded while our debt bloats with ever more liberal largess. The rat-hole is flooded with borrowed or printed money that helps only the political cronies of the left.

Posted by: Royal Flush at January 30, 2012 5:24 PM
Comment #335366

jlw, my above comment to Stephen, How would you react in that same situation?

Posted by: KAP at January 30, 2012 5:29 PM
Comment #335367

KAP,

“Hitler didn’t serve his country, he was an Austrian serving in the German Army Rocky. Get your facts straight.”

Picky, Picky.

Hitler was granted permission to serve in the German army by the King of Bavaria. It has been speculated that during his service in the German army he developed his hyper-German idealism

Royal,

“I asked questions…Rocky made inferences. The heroics of the keyboard are sickening.”

By all means, let me be more succinct.
IMHO anyone that gives a pass to Limbaugh, Gingrich, et al. for not being in the military, and yet criticizes anyone else that hasn’t been in the military for giving their opinion is a hypocrite.

There do you feel better now?

Bill,

“I say love it, or leave it and that goes for the traitorous liberals on WB. If you want to live in France, then by all means go there.”

Seriously Bill, that’s the best you got?

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at January 30, 2012 5:44 PM
Comment #335368

Everything I said about Allen West was 100% correct.

An Article 15 is serious. Very serious. It could have been grounds for a court marshal and a dishonorable discharge with no benefits. As an officer, I was required to know certain aspects of the UCMJ, and although I was not a JAG, I would have handled West’s case the same way.

He was serving the country in combat. It was a dangerous assignment, and he faced deadly, unconventional threats. The situation brought a great deal of pressure to bear. That is a mitigating factor.

However, as a Lieutenant Colonel, West was held to a higher standard- NOT a lower standard- than his troops. As an officer, he was expected to set the example. No one said it was easy; nevertheless, that was and will always be the expectation of a high ranking officer in command. What he did was in clear violation of the UCMJ. It is never ok for a US soldier to torture anyone, and it is especially not ok for the commanding officer to do so.

West knew this was wrong.

Given the fact that he was serving his country in combat, in a difficult situation, I would have done the same as his panel did- given him an Article 15 and discharged him from service with full retirement benefits.

Posted by: phx8 at January 30, 2012 5:47 PM
Comment #335369

Yes Rocky he served in the German army and developed his German idealism. But prior to that his own country of Austria found him unfit for their Army in 1913, wounder why. Goes to show you at the time Germany accepted anybody in their Army

Posted by: KAP at January 30, 2012 5:50 PM
Comment #335370


Bill, I was wondering how long it would take a conservative to apply the ‘love it or leave it’ defence. I know a lot of Chicken Hawks, even veterans, that would not hesitate for a second when it comes to stabbing a veteran in the back. Conservative Chicken Hawks and some of their veteran allies across the land applauded the stabbing of Kerry.

American voters complain about the bitter taste as they gobble down the negative political adds.

Posted by: jlw at January 30, 2012 5:51 PM
Comment #335371

Rocky, I asked these questions of SD…”When is the last time SD put on the uniform of his country? When is the last time SD placed his life on the line for his fellow citizens? When is the last time SD did anything patriotic for his country that wasn’t in his own self interest.”

Please show me the “criticism” you write of Mr. Inference!

Posted by: Royal Flush at January 30, 2012 5:51 PM
Comment #335372

phx8, What would you do in a combat situation if being informed you were to be ambushed? If it were me I probably would have done the same as he did to protect myself and my troops. I’d take my chances with a court martial.

Posted by: KAP at January 30, 2012 5:55 PM
Comment #335373

obama and the libs and socialist don’t believe what Jefferson wrote.

“The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.”
— Thomas Jefferson

“It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save
One-half the wars of the world.”
— Thomas Jefferson

“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.”
— Thomas Jefferson

Posted by: Royal Flush at January 30, 2012 6:08 PM
Comment #335374

Royal,

“Please show me the “criticism” you write of Mr. Inference!”


I have been here at WB for nearly ten years and those questions have been asked of and answered by Stephen fifty times if they have been asked and answered once.
You guys rarely write anything to actually debate Stephen. You guys are more likely to make it personal. You criticize his writing style, the length of his posts, his patriotism, and the fact that he is unabashed in his liberalism.

Yet you guys rarely actually debate his points.

The questions you asked are meant to belittle, not to debate Stephen, and have nothing to do with what his points are.

I am not inferring anything here. I am just calling it as I see it.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at January 30, 2012 6:12 PM
Comment #335375

KAP,
I know it’s tempting to jettison rules and laws when the pressure is on. But you can’t do that. You especially can’t do that as an officer. I think I know what West should have done, but does it matter? I was not there, and Iraq was bad news. Like I said, IMO his case was treated appropriately. I know sometimes the military UCMJ seems unfair to civilians, but the military is held to a different standard- especially officers- especially experienced, high ranking officers. Failing to meet that high standard is a serious offense.

By the way, I think it is highly inappropriate for a member of Congress to demand the leadership of the opposition party ‘get the hell out of America.’

Posted by: phx8 at January 30, 2012 6:17 PM
Comment #335376

Royal you forgot JFK’s “Ask not what your country can do for you ask what you can do for your country” now it’s “Ask what your country can do for you not what you can do for your country”

Posted by: KAP at January 30, 2012 6:17 PM
Comment #335377

I agree phx8 that his case was handled appropriately and fairly, but the point I’m making none of us know how we would act in the same situation no matter if Officer or enlisted. As far as him being outspoken maybe we need a little of the same for both sides.

Posted by: KAP at January 30, 2012 6:23 PM
Comment #335378


Kap, are you suggesting that all officers would react the same as West, that there were no officers that reacted more responsibly when faced with a similar situation?

Posted by: jlw at January 30, 2012 6:25 PM
Comment #335379

Marks wrote; “Yet you guys rarely actually debate his points.”

You claim 10 years residency on WB and haven’t read my debates with him…blind or just selective in your reading?

SD just repeats what he reads in his morning liberal screeds. I see little original thinking in his posts, just long and tiring monologues about his enlightenment to liberalism.

Posted by: Royal Flush at January 30, 2012 6:29 PM
Comment #335380

Never said such a thing jlw I said NO ONE KNOWS HOW THEY WILL REACT IF IN THAT SAME SITUATION. I stated that I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME. No one knows how they would react if being threatehed with ambush.

Posted by: KAP at January 30, 2012 6:34 PM
Comment #335381

Royal,

When I say you guys, and follow it up with “you”, I am not being personal.

However, you, Royal, are being personal when you ask questions of the sort you did. We all know who Stephen is.

Look, you are one of the few conservatives on WB, I “mostly” respect, but even you go off the deep end.

Such as;

“I see little original thinking in his posts, just long and tiring monologues about his enlightenment to liberalism.”

So why do you bother? Why respond to something you obviously feel is beneath you?

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at January 30, 2012 6:44 PM
Comment #335383

Royal Flush-

Rocky writes; “Since when did it become necessary to join the armed forces to have a say as to what happens in America.”

I asked questions…Rocky made inferences. The heroics of the keyboard are sickening.

I basically said that my status as an American citizen gave me these rights, that I wasn’t a second class citizen or worse for being a liberal. Then you questioned whether I ever served as if that were relevant to my right to object to what West said. Then Rocky took you to task for implying that I needed to serve to critique his opinion.

Why should it be “sickening” that he followed the line of inference you set forth, and found it objectionable?

KAP-
First things first, Hitler served as a citizen of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, which was an ally of Germany in the first World War.

Second, as to how I would react? My wish would be to get accurate information. Knowing what I know about torture and everything, I’d be a fool to use such techniques, because I could likely get the subject to say that they were the queen of England.

Ah, but you’re saying more than that, saying that I might make the same decision under stress. Well, I might, but it would be wrong, whatever my intentions were. And however well intentioned, I think it shouldn’t be glorified or whitewashed for being anything more than a failure of nerve and discipline.

I’m not a fan of letting human weakness become a vehicle for defining deviancy down for a variety of bad behaviors. I can forgive him for having broken down under stress and done something terrible, just as I could forgive the soldiers involved in that incident in Haditha. However, we should encourage people to repent of such atrocities, not promote them as only justified under those pressures.

When we start offering excuses like these, there will be those in any group who take it as permission to do what they want, and they will bring greater shame to us. The sleep of reason brings forth monsters, and I’m the kind of person who wants reason to triumph rather than savagery. I want our soldiers to keep their heads, keep their integrity, not end up doing things that will likely haunt them for the rest of their days.

Also, note this: I was always an advocate for manpower and logistics policies that would have had soldiers serving fewer tours of duty, with more time at home inbetween their tours to let the stress seep out of their system. I think we treated these people too much like machines, and atrocities like we saw, and PTSD like we’re familiar with are the price we’ve paid for that. Soldiers are human beings, and the Bush policy was wrong for pushing them to such limits.

Royal Flush-
Thanks for the laugh. I’m not even going to dignify that trainwreck of propaganda with a detailed answer. That’s how bad it is. I usually try to take people seriously, but you’re so far off base I just can’t do it.

;-)

Bill-
The truth is a defense for libel. West’s offense and punishment are public record, and so is his penchant for extreme politics.

In my opinion, the left along with their messiah leader hate the military. They despise everything the military stands for; hence you find more conservatives in the military fighting for our rights.

Thanks for explaining your terrible argument, but why should we believe an argument based on your opinion of what we think?

Let’s be honest, this is a show for your friends. You repeatedly tell us what we think, while we offer you, outright, our own stated opinions. Your argument is specifically designed to undermine ours by arguing the ultimately unprovable notion that despite everything we say, our opinion is an evil one we’re not honest enough to cop to.

If people are inclined to believe folks like you, it’s hard to set them straight. That doesn’t mean you’re right, it means you have no real perspective on our opinions.

As for your question? Look, I’m trying to prepare for a career as a writer, and your scenario seems to be tailor-made to be the plot of a bad movie. My dad wasn’t any kind of counterterrorism expert, he was a salesman. Me, I’m a computer tech with a background in film and television media technology.

Let’st start with that. How would I recognize him as a terrorist? If I did, the primary reason might be some kind of bulletin, but short of that, it would be extraordinarily unlikely for me to figure out this, a plot for a hollywood movies.

If I did manage to catch him, what then? If he didn’t attack me, it would likely end up having me pegged as his abductor. How would I know about this terrorist plot?

God. I mean, would I even have the background to know what the right questions to ask were, or to know the truth from a lie? Would I have the training to know how to push him and pull him as an interrogator? I can fake writing a greater interrogator, sure enough, but then I can imagine the facts, too. In real life, imagining the facts might get me into a bit of trouble, or make any interrogation I attempt worthless.

My first impulse, in the unlikely event that I was attacked by somebody, or captured a wanted terrorist, would be to call the FBI and get somebody down there who was qualified to actually question the man.

In short, I would avoid Allen West’s mistake, as far as I could.

As far as your last catapulting of slime my way, I for one have never had any notion of leaving this country, not even during the worst days of the Bush Administration. This is my country, which I love. Not even Bush’s BS could make me want to leave.

I think what’s more despicable are the folks who trade on people’s respect and high regard for the troops to try and put a chilling effect on the liberties they fight to protect. I think that’s even more the case when the questions that were up for debate were the ones that had bearing on the quality of life and the safety of our soldiers. A lot of people died, in my opinion, because our president at the time was too much of a political coward to do the right thing.

As for courage, Bill? That name you see is my full and real name. I have always put my own good name on the line, both because I stand by my convictions, and because I feel that it will be easier to resist the temptations you’ve succumbed to, if I actually stand a chance of having to answer for the nasty things I might say.

I stood up for changing the strategy in the war even when it wasn’t popular, even when your people were flinging charges of disloyalty at us. I was standing up for our soldiers, and for America’s interests when it wasn’t easy or simple to make the argument, before the trainwreck of awful consequences had brought things home to everybody.

I was standing up for balancing the budget when we were a more prosperous nation, and your people were still saying it was necessary to burden us with more debt to keep the economy going. Now I’m standing up for taking on that debt to stimulate the economy when it’s actually necessary, even though folks like you fearmonger about that.

I’m not going to stand up for things just when I’ve got a wave of caustic propaganda at my back, I’m going to do what I got to do with the facts I have at hand. Why? Because this nation needs for people to fight for the truth as much as they fight for their country. Heck, fighting for that helps them fight for their country more effectively, as we aren’t going after the wrong targets, or doing things the wrong way, or in a way that brings them shame.

The truth matters, and it matters more than your egotistical notions of how indispensable and good your politics is.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at January 30, 2012 6:58 PM
Comment #335384

Well Rocky, I wrote my critique of SD to offset your praise of him…fair enough?

It is boring when SD writes lengthy posts, the meat of which, could easily be written in a paragraph. The mark of a good writer is originality and brevity that grabs the interest of the reader.

SD has written thousands of times that he is interested in facts. He isn’t, and I have proved it numerous times.

SD claims to have the interest of the country at heart yet sees no problem with national debt that now exceeds GDP.

SD claims he is for honesty and truthfulness yet continues the obama line that nearly everything wrong is the fault of President Bush or some other Republican.

SD claims that money in politics is one reason for our problems but I never read him decrying the huge donations from Holeywood for libs.

SD has never served his country in our military forces yet sees himself as one fit to criticize those who do and occasionally make an error of judgement.

SD never tires of bashing the fossil fuel industry while enjoying all the benefits of it. He never tires of bashing capitalism while enjoying all the benefits of it as well.

SD seems to relish taking money from one American to give to another. I despise his idea of what our Constitution is all about. Our founding documents read through his lens become socialism writ large.

Posted by: Royal Flush at January 30, 2012 7:10 PM
Comment #335385

Stephen, Your comment reflects your never being in a combat situation. There are times you don’t have the luxury of getting accurate infomation when you have someone ready to put a bullet in your head. You have to react and you can’t say for certain what you would do. I’ve been in combat and it is not fun. Being where West was not knowing if the guy in front of you is friend or foe makes it even more difficult.
As far as Hitler the history I read was that in 1889 he was born in Austria and was turned down by the Austrian army in 1913 went to Bavaria and joined the German Army at the start of WW1 and became ingrosswed with saving Germany.

Posted by: KAP at January 30, 2012 7:19 PM
Comment #335388

The entire philosophy of the liberal democrat party is one which fosters more people becoming dependent upon government for their well being. It is a reckless, dangerous, and harmful philosophy that has destroyed nations.

H.L. Mencken quipped that the New Deal divided America into “those who work for a living and those who vote for a living.”

The explosion in the number of food-stamp recipients tilts the political playing field in favor of big government. The more people who become government dependents, the more likely that democracy will become a conspiracy against self-reliance.

Posted by: Royal Flush at January 30, 2012 7:51 PM
Comment #335389

Royal Flush,

“SD claims to have the interest of the country at heart yet sees no problem with national debt that now exceeds GDP.”

The growth of the federal national debt has lagged private sector debt growth to GDP by many years. Where was the alarm when exploding private sector debt exceeded GDP (350% of GDP in 2008) when Bush was in office? It was the collapse of private sector debt that caused the the explosion of federal debt to GDP in 2009, the last year of the Bush budgets.

Conservatives seem absolutely blind to the reality of what has happened during the last decade. Obama and “socialism” are responsible for what their policies have wrought. It is Alice in Wonderland thinking.

“SD has never served his country in our military forces yet sees himself as one fit to criticize those who do and occasionally make an error of judgement.”

Conservatives say they embrace the principles of the Founding Fathers on the one hand but on the other hand accuse liberals of being un-patriotic for their concerns about excesses of militarism and the growth of the military-industrial complex. I would suggest that today’s conservatives should take a breather and actually look at what the Founding Fathers thought about militarism, standing armies, etc. You may be disappointed.


Posted by: Rich at January 30, 2012 7:58 PM
Comment #335390

The UCMJ is there for a reason. Violations like those of Alllen West hurt the greater cause by acting out of emotion. It’s certainly understandable because war is life threatening and people lose their heads. That doesn’t make Allen West a bad person. It happens in every war but cannot be tolerated because the military needs to operate as a single entity and flying off the handle. He was rightly punished. What makes him a bad person is this lame “if you don’t like it, leave nonsense.” just because he served in the military he doesn’t get a pass on making bogus arguments. This crap that only the right is patriotic and that only the right loves America is the biggest load of garbage and really points to the opposite being true. Liberals have fought and died for your right to spew non-factual, un-American filth that you hold the keys to patriotism. Liberals serve this country just as bravely as anyone else and that is an undeniable truth. Moreover, gay and lesbian men and women have done so as well while the right sits safely at home denying them their rights while they are in harm’s way. Every time I hear this garbage I thank my lucky stars that I live in the greatest country on earth and in a system that is better than pettiness and bigotry.

Posted by: tcsned at January 30, 2012 8:00 PM
Comment #335392
I love the way the liberals say how much the support the troops.In my opinion, the left along with their messiah leader hate the military. They despise everything the military stands for; hence you find more conservatives in the military fighting for our rights.

Logic like that bill explains why you also think West us being stabbed in the back for his ignorant comments. Conservative logic is hate based when you say things like this Bill. Conservatives hiding behind military service as an excuse to let guys like west further their authoritarian cause is simply embarrassing to this country IMHO. Now it is the liberal he is demanding leave the country, next who will it be the moderates or perhaps a religious group such as the Jews or the Mormons? Lets keep the door closed on this type of bigotry Bill. I suggest that if you truly value liberty you join your Tea Party friends to denounce West for his bigoted remarks.
It’s really this easy Bill, just because we are not in the military does not mean we hate the military. You also seem to have missed out on the Iraq war as the fight was more about imposing our system of government on that nation than fighting to keep our rights. Not the troops fault, but conservative leadership and nation building on the grand-kids dime go hand in hand.

Or perhaps j2t2 and Stephen Daugherty are just racists and slander West because he is black. I would suggest all the above.

Jeez Bill bringing racism into the conversation just to protect West from his ignorant comments. Just one more example of “And it has been even more often proven by example that conservatives protest most that for which they are guilty,” from my previous comment. Your making it to easy Bill.

Posted by: j2t2 at January 30, 2012 9:17 PM
Comment #335393


Kap, that is why I ask. Because, while you say that no one knows how they would react, you ask me to tell you how I would react.

IMO, tcsned has it right.

The actions taken by West are understandable, given the circumstances.

The punishment was appropriate.

West’s right wing ideological rhetoric is deplorable. The charge that only conservatives are true Americans, true patriots, is as anti American as it gets.

Posted by: jlw at January 30, 2012 9:23 PM
Comment #335394
But I will ask you about protecting your family. A terrorist is planning to kill your family,….

Really Bill! Judging by the way you defend west and his ignorant comments perhaps Stephen should worry more about conservatives planning to kill his family. Especially here in America, being a liberal and all.

Seems to me the obvious hatred in your comments would lead you or someone like you to doing something like this much sooner than some terrorist from another country. Are you starting,yet, to see just how similar you are to the German people of the ‘early ‘30’s Bill?

Posted by: j2t2 at January 30, 2012 9:37 PM
Comment #335395

“…the Iraq war as the fight was more about imposing our system of government on that nation than fighting to keep our rights.”

j2t2,

It is the exact reason that the Founding Fathers were so distrustful of large, standing armies. They had been used by the Imperial European powers of the time for simple expansion of power at the expense of lives, treasury and commerce. It was a madness that the Founding Fathers wished to avoid. But, somehow, someway, we have been sucked into the abyss of international, global military domination that the Founding Fathers found so repugnant and dangerous to our long term liberty. Even the warnings of a moderate Republican military leader and President, Dwight D. Eisenhower, fall on deaf ears.

Posted by: Rich at January 30, 2012 9:40 PM
Comment #335396

jlw, Well how would you react? As I stated I would probably do the same given the circumstances. I also agreed that the punishment was appropiate comment #335377. I agree conservatives are not the only patroits.

Posted by: KAP at January 30, 2012 9:44 PM
Comment #335397

Royal Flush, you forgot one on SD; he loves to promote green energy and he loves to defend Obama’s use of tax dollars to bail out solar companies and GM’s Chevy Volt, but when given the chance to actually support GM with his own dollars, he chose to buy a Jap hybrid. So his comments are hypocritical.

Stephen Daugherty, the reason you love to publish your real name is for infamy. It is a trait of a narcissist. The reason your comments are so lengthy is because you think your important, God’s gift to the lowly ignorant conservative writers. It’s all about SD.

Stephen, instead of writing such lengthy essays and telling us how the military should operate, perhaps you should get on your knees and thank God you live in a nation that offers so much freedom. It took the lives of hundreds of thousands of Americans to pay the price for your freedoms. If you lived in one of those Muslim nations that Obama is so fond of defending; the first time you spoke out against the government as you so readily did when Bush was President, you would have had your head chopped off.

It just burns my ass to hear a bunch of gutless liberals slam the military. Your support of the troops is always by mouth only.

To those liberals who want to defend SD and claim conservatives won’t really debate him, I say; what’s the sense in trying to debate the daily talking points of the liberals. All one has to do is catch the daily talking points from Obama’s administration and you will see what the lext post on WB is going to be about..

Posted by: Bill at January 30, 2012 9:48 PM
Comment #335399

KAP-
I’ve done quite a bit of studying on the subject of neuroscience. You get to know the flaws in human thinking and perception.

Let’s take PTSD for an example. People thought that PTSD sufferers were getting crystal clear visions of what happened in thier past when they had flashbacks. Studies of what they actually recall demonstrated that their recall was actually worse than average in these flashbacks. They were more “suggested by actual events” than documentary replays of events as they actually occured.

Were the soldiers lying? No, but the events were coming back to them in a state of mind that convinced them that their daytime nightmares were real.

Memory is fallible, not a precise record of events. Confidence in events is part of what leads us to believe in a memory, preserve it, but bias, inattention to details you weren’t focused on, etc. can lead even the best eyewitness to become unreliable. Strong pain and suffering hasn’t been known to promote the quality of memory, either.

Which is part of why torture or truth serums, even as a measure of expedience, aren’t as effective, altogether, as simply talking to people. You complain that this takes too much time. Well, really, if you’re chasing around information at the last minute, you’d be better advised to have reliable sources on your side, good training on observation, or a source you’ve already flipped in interrogation handy, because all a smart terrorist has to do to preserve their plans and foil yours is keep feeding you BS until the plan is over and done with.

Interrogators commonly say that they’ve never been faced with a real-life ticking time-bomb scenario. It’s primarily a fiction, cooked up by Hollywood writers to keep up the suspense. In screenwriting, it’s what we call a time-lock. It forces the good guys to go to extraordinary lengths that a less urgent scenario wouldn’t require.

Funny how that gets turned around and used to relate the idea to people that torture is necessary, and effective.

Truth is, you don’t let yourself get trapped in the time lock scenario. You get your feelers into the terrorist groups before then, you get ahead of their clock. You spend the time that is necessary to intercept and then interrogate properly your suspects before their plan is in action. You trap them first, with the right information. If they got you in the timelock, its usually too late already.

Royal Flush-
Royal Flush sees no problem in making a bunch of claims he’s not willing to back. If my posts are less thrilling, not so brief, it’s because I take the opportunity to research what I’m talking about, and I like to deal with matters in substantial detail.

This I do, because I’m not part of what might be fairly called “the real drive-by media”, not part of that snappy, infotaining world of conservative news, where one of the most trusted news sources insists he’s not a journalist, but an entertainer, most likely for legal reasons.

You can be real snappy if you’re just rattling down a list of predefined talking points somebody else wrote for you.

As far as the debt and GDP goes, I see that as a problem. But it’s not a simple spending problem. About forty percent of the deficit we started out with in 2009 came from the fact that we just took a nut-kick to our economy- the revenues came up short, thanks to the recession. If we don’t deal with the economic problem, you’ll never solve the debt problem.

As for things being the fault of Bush and the Republicans? Look, I can prove what I claim. I can point to actual policies passed and signed into law by Republicans. So I have no concern for my honesty on those counts. I’m telling the truth.

As for money in politics being a problem, you’ve bothered to ask me whether I would sacrifice their contributions to the party, or on behalf of my candidates in order to get a fairer system.

Which, in short, I would be willing to do! So, you don’t have me there. I am willing to let them go.

As for military forces? You’re just using them as human shields for bad policy. If your concern was genuine, I would see your people campaigning for all things I did for the Soldiers. I felt the men and women in uniform could do the job, but there needed to be more of them, earlier, and a different strategy at work.

As for the fossil fuel industry? I can’t deny that I’ve benefitted throughout my life from it. But gratitude to that doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t consider the science that tells me that switching from these fuels is the best thing for the economy and the environment. It’s time to mature as a civilization.

As for your last paragraph? The way you would write tax policy, would put the lightest tax burden on the rich, while requiring the rest of us to pay more in order to pay back the money we borrowed to give them tax cuts. Reverse Robin Hood, in essence. It’s not socialism I’m looking to in principle, it’s a brand of capitalism that doesn’t screw the rest of us so that the few that could still get rich under the system we had before could be even richer.

You despise my conception of the constitution because you ridicule what you don’t understand. You’ve put your own views on such a pedestal that you can’t even understand that your own views aren’t sacrosanct to the rest of us.

But you still have to bargain and negotiate with the rest of us to get what you want. They can’t win forever this way, without provoking the very backlash they fear, and every time they stuff it back in the can, the worse it will really be. I would rather not they push their luck so far that we really do end up with socialism. The European nations ended up with it because class differences were truly exaggerated there. Here, class differences were less profound, the system more equitable. If you want to prevent socialism, make socialism unnecessary.

I mean, what you don’t get is that people don’t want to be on food stamps! You think we somehow hypnotize people into aspiring just to live on the dole. Bull! Liberals idolize getting rich the same way everybody else does. We’re capitalists to the same extent you are.

We just believe that there have to be ground rules, so that you don’t have to be already rich, already prosperous to benefit from your hard work, loyalty to your company, and whatnot.

Ah, but why am I telling you this? Well, maybe I’m not telling you in particular this. Maybe I’m trying to get through to the people you have hornswaggled about us.

The reality about liberals is that we work just as hard you do, at many of the same jobs. Sometimes the main difference is what state we live in. At the end of the day, what you’re doing is more about name calling than anything else, and I want people to know something more about us than your slander du jour.

The question is, at the end, whether you really encourage self-reliance if a person can’t live on the wage they make. The question is, do you really encourage self-reliance if all the costs of living outweigh the money they make. Or, do you simply encourage reliance on a giant, overgrown credit industry, which milks and milks and milks people dry, and then crashes when people are too overleveraged to spend anymore in debt financing.

You encourage a slavish reliance on Wall Street, on big companies that are too big to fail without taking their industries with them. You’ve taken so much of the slack out of these systems that the system can’t self-correct anymore, but has to turn to the government to bail them out. That is the reality of your policy of “self-reliance”.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at January 30, 2012 9:53 PM
Comment #335400
I say; what’s the sense in trying to debate the daily talking points of the liberals. All one has to do is catch the daily talking points from Obama’s administration and you will see what the lext post on WB is going to be about..

Seriously Frank you seem to be the one legged man in the a** kicking contest with this line. One wonders why you post your comments if you don’t want to debate based upon substance and… oh now I see.

Posted by: j2t2 at January 30, 2012 9:54 PM
Comment #335401

Stephen, Get a grip there are things that happen in combat that you cannot understand because you haven’t been in that situation. You can analize all you want, but until you have bullets and rockets and morters zinging past your head you will never understand. Everyone is different and will act differently.

Posted by: KAP at January 30, 2012 10:03 PM
Comment #335402

J2t2, it was the OWS protestors who held up anti-Semitic signs. It is the left who is constantly bringing up the fact that Romney is a Mormon. So who is the racist?

Why wouldn’t your comments about West be seen as racism? How many times have the democrat’s cried racism when Obama was questioned. Sorry boy, but if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

“Seems to me the obvious hatred in your comments would lead you or someone like you to doing something like this much sooner than some terrorist from another country. Are you starting,yet, to see just how similar you are to the German people of the ‘early ‘30’s Bill?”
Posted by: j2t2 at January 30, 2012 9:37 PM

You guys on the left love to throw around the “German people of the 30’s” don’t you. In fact it seems as if every liberal debate ends up with this same line. Remember, it is a proven fact that Liberals ALWAYS blames their enemies for the thing of which they are most guilty.

j2t2, “Frank”???

Posted by: Bill at January 30, 2012 10:05 PM
Comment #335403

Bill-
It was an OWS protestor, who the rest of the OWS protestors promptly disowned. Funny how anytime we get close to a sacred cow of yours, you’re playing the same cards you call us, (and derisively so) politically correct for playing.

We’re called anti-semitic because of our antipathy towards Wall Street, or the Neocons. We’re called racists for finding what Allen West, Alan Keyes, or Herman Cain say to be nuts. You’re trying to stifle criticism of them, not respond to actual prejudicial remarks, though.

I don’t hear people calling those folks “uppity” the way Obama got called. I don’t hear about folks putting their faces on targets and shooting at them. I don’t see doctored photos which cut and paste their faces on that of a Witch Doctor. I don’t see Obama-bucks featuring fried chicken, or images showing Watermelon patches on the front lawn of the White House. I mean hell, that’s advanced racism if you only get it because you took a college class which examined the subject.

So you want to talk about racism towards black candidates, I’ll show up with stuff that is demonstrably bigoted, you’ll show up with people not liking your candidate’s policies, and we’ll have a real discussion about who’s playing the race card.

Your “proven facts” need some work if they’re going to get anywhere beyond opinion stubbornly held in the face of the facts. Simple fact is, you don’t want to have to prove what you consider facts, you want us to take your BS at face value. Well, you haven’t earned that.

KAP-
Look, if you want to disregard my opinion, fine. But then, you must contend with the fact that the Army thought this was so excessive and wrong that they charged him with assault for what he did. The very folks who would viscerally understand what I admittedly have never experienced. They thought he screwed up, and he acknowledged that, and took retirement and a Section 15 punishment on account of his actions.

But since I’m a liberal pointing these things out, your habit is to deny and obfuscate. What I’m saying is that we’re not dealing with somebody who made tough choices, we’re dealing with somebody who let his environment push him to make choices that were questionable even by his own peers and colleagues’ standards.

I can accept that the choices soldiers have to make are imperfect, and not always nice and undisturbing to those of us who have never been through that kind of hell. But I want the emphasis and the pressure to be put in place to make those decisions in the best way possible. That, rather than having pressures the other way, where we define a normal, healthy reaction in terms of those atrocities. If we’re going to make a psychoanalytic excuse for what we did, we might as well acknowledge why the excuse is necessary in the first place: because any cop or person who did this back home would be up on charges here as well.

You need to face that. You need to acknowledge where your candidates are going beyond the pale, because otherwise, you will have long, fruitless and ineffective conversations with people, where you offer rationalizations and justifications for what people do, and they turn you down flat.

You need better people respresenting you, folks who keep their heads, keep their manners, and keep their responsibilities better than the current crowd. Any idiot, any child can have a tantrum and say “no” to people over and over again. The leaders we need to actually respect, are the folks who bring out the best in us, not the people who as for us to look the other way from their compromise and corruption of character.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at January 30, 2012 11:07 PM
Comment #335405

Stephen, Yes he did something wrong and the punishment was appropriate and fair. When you ever get in a similar situation you can tell us how you reacted but til then all you can do is annalize and give us some theorectical BS. As I stated to you before West is Florida’s problem, I have my own stupid UFO believeing liberal Democrat representing me. You have your own representatives to worry about in Texas. Leave West to the people of his district in Florida. He dosen’t represent you and he dosen’t represent me. If the people of his district are content with his representation then so be it.

Posted by: KAP at January 30, 2012 11:33 PM
Comment #335408
J2t2, it was the OWS protestors who held up anti-Semitic signs. It is the left who is constantly bringing up the fact that Romney is a Mormon. So who is the racist?

Bill you miss the point. People like west don’t stop once they start purging the country of undesirables. Who knows who will be next on his list, it could be any group that disagrees with his opinion. He makes false accusations against some of these people and then demands they leave the country and you defend him.
The man is an elected representative of the people of his district and he is calling for the removal of American citizens from their birthplace for his own political gain. He is ostracizing a group of people in this country that has broken no laws, and you applaud these actions and defend the man simply because he is a veteran. Wise up Bill and recognize him for the authoritarian fascist he is.


It seems Samuel Johnson is right when he tells us patriotism is the last refuge for scoundrels such as allen west.

You guys on the left love to throw around the “German people of the 30’s” don’t you. In fact it seems as if every liberal debate ends up with this same line.
Bill once again you are mistaken. For starters it is me and me alone that brings up this comparison between conservatives and the people of ‘30’s Germany. Secondly I don’t love it by any stretch of the imagination Bill. It brings a sick feeling to my stomach to think many of my fellow Americans are taken in by the conservative movement and its propaganda. It does me no good to see you guys mindlessly following the leaders of this movement. However it does appear to me that the comparison to the people of Germany in the ‘30’s and the conservatives of today is a valid one. A valid comparison that I would prefer was wrong.
Remember, it is a proven fact that Liberals ALWAYS blames their enemies for the thing of which they are most guilty.

It is just this type of misinformation that causes the comparison. Look at yourself Bill, making these statements as if they were factual. Yet nothing to back them up. It is very typical of conservatives. They listen to their leaders on the radio and then as if in a delusional haze they repeat these nonsensical bits of half truths, outright lies and conservative myths until they actually believe it. As you have just done.

j2t2, “Frank”??? Sorry Bill I meant Bill , I don’t know where “Frank” came from either.

Posted by: j2t2 at January 31, 2012 12:06 AM
Comment #335409

By the way Stephen Your party has had it’s share of loud mouthed stupidity also, Murtha and his Haditha killings have the Marines tried and hung before the facts that one was just as bad if not worse than West’s IMO and his district re elected him, Biden and his famous gaffs just to name 2. Kerry also.

Posted by: KAP at January 31, 2012 12:12 AM
Comment #335411

Just a short remark. When PO’s ontourage goes out spending my tax dollars on the campaign trail, when is he going to start using those VOLT’s that are so great? Just wonderin’.

Just a braggin’ point. My son is joining the US Navy. He got to pick what he wanted. He is going nuclear. Yaaaaaa! Way to go my beloved son.

Other son is an MP in the US Army. Doing great.

Now some of you lunkheads above, I really do not understand how you can support a person to lead the country who is so lazy he just brushed up last years SOTU are gave us a deja vu treatment. There is so much negative factual data on this “brilliant” (do you really believe it) professor of Constitutional Law. Why does he want to trash our great document. He is doing all he can to subvert the Constitution. Eight states are in the process of not allowing his name on the ballot this year. Let us see what happens. The reason for those challenges are that a violation of the Constitution occured as far as his being eligible to be a candidate.

Go ahead southpaws. Rip me. All I stated was the fact. You will see how mundane the liberal/left position is. Bring your own toilet paper.

Maranatha

Posted by: tom humes at January 31, 2012 3:46 AM
Comment #335412

“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself.” —Roman statesman Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC)

Posted by: tom humes at January 31, 2012 3:48 AM
Comment #335417

“Bill-

It was an OWS protestor, who the rest of the OWS protestors promptly disowned. Funny how anytime we get close to a sacred cow of yours, you’re playing the same cards you call us, (and derisively so) politically correct for playing.”

Stephen Daugherty, again you show your false sense of outrage. When the media showed video after video of a man at an Obama healthcare gathering in AZ who was armed, you condemned all Tea Partier conservatives as being gun toting threats to society. Not to mention the fact that it was never revealed by the MSM that this man was black, and was within his legal right to carry.

This is further evidence of liberal double standards.

“We’re called anti-semitic because of our antipathy towards Wall Street, or the Neocons. We’re called racists for finding what Allen West, Alan Keyes, or Herman Cain say to be nuts. You’re trying to stifle criticism of them, not respond to actual prejudicial remarks, though.”

Stephen, I will give you just one very recent example of the left crying racism when a conservative criticizes Obama:

“In a column this week for CNN, author Walter Mosley was among those who took Gingrich to task for knowingly using a emotionally-charged buzzword to deride the nation’s first African-American president.

He wrote: “Newt Gingrich … knows full well that calling someone a “food stamp president” brings up the working person’s fear, looming reality, and in some cases the actual experience, of unemployment – while making a shout-out to racism and affixing a stigma to poverty. All the while hiding behind the symbol of a flag.”

This has been going on for almost 4 years, and again it shows the lefts double standards.

“I don’t hear people calling those folks “uppity” the way Obama got called. I don’t hear about folks putting their faces on targets and shooting at them. I don’t see doctored photos which cut and paste their faces on that of a Witch Doctor. I don’t see Obama-bucks featuring fried chicken, or images showing Watermelon patches on the front lawn of the White House. I mean hell, that’s advanced racism if you only get it because you took a college class which examined the subject.”

Then Daugherty, I suggest you get off your lazy a** and do some research. Take a look at the cartoons of President George W. Bush, or perhaps we can go back and look at YOUR comments of Bush: let’s see what you thought of his intelligence level, his military record, or his college record. Some on the left even called for his death; if you were silent about it, then you were complicit.

Again Daugherty, false outrage and liberal double standards.

Daugherty, everything the ;eft accuses conservatives of are the very things liberals do. Sorry, but it’s a proven fact.


j2t2, sorry, but if you continue to bring up the German people and the 30’s; it is because you like to bring it up. You are hoping that if you sling enough dung at the wall, sooner or later some will stick.

Posted by: Bill at January 31, 2012 10:02 AM
Comment #335420
j2t2, sorry, but if you continue to bring up the German people and the 30’s; it is because you like to bring it up.

I accept your apology for your flawed analysis Bill. The fact is I get 0 satisfaction from the comparison I harp about between the conservatives of today and the German people of the late 20’s and early 30’s. Like I said in my previous comment I would prefer conservatives understand how they are being manipulated and take the corrective steps to solve the problem. It damages the country and although as Tom quotes we can “survive the fools” the treasonous conservative leaders are another story.


You are hoping that if you sling enough dung at the wall, sooner or later some will stick.

Bill what good does it do to sling dung at the well intentioned but misguided conservative movement followers? That is not my intent. I simply want you guys to reflect on how the German people were misled by the Nazi’s in much the same way conservatives are being misled by their movement leaders today. I am just pointing out the facts so you can make the decision to think for yourself instead of continuing with the conservative leaders myths and mythinformation you are currently regurgitating.


Posted by: j2t2 at January 31, 2012 11:13 AM
Comment #335426

KAP-
We could use logic like yours to justify any number of bad behaviors among soldiers, and we shouldn’t. We’re making them out to be pathetic people who can’t control themselves. They’re not. Most of them don’t do what Allen West did. Most of them exercise excellent self control and judgment. You do those a disservice by making excuses for West’s behavior.

tom humes-
There are no traitors here, just people accused of such by folks who have lost the dignity of being able to compete in a civil argument about politics on their own terms, and so throw around words like treason and traitor without one factually established betrayal to merit it.

Obama’s qualifications, if taken at face value, as the evidence indicates it should be, are impressive, and leave little doubt that he is qualified. But Republicans, addicted to swiftboating strong candidates insinuate that his qualifications are false. They say he was born elsewhere, though his birth certificate’s been produced twice in both official forms. They say he was affirmative actioned into graduating at the top of his class, despite the fact that no such program could do that, and no evidence has arisen accusing him or professors of faking his academic credentials.

He is accused of never having had a job, though he taught law, and practiced it as a lawyer, in addition to being a community organizer. His community organizing is made out to be some pact with the devil, and his extraordinary election results are claimed to be the result of election fraud.

Over and over and over again, conservatives claim falsehoods where no facts have arisen to dispute the established facts. Why?

Because folks on the right in politics these days suffer from the legacy of having to defend Bush for years. If you couldn’t build him up as an excellent leaders, then you had to tear down his opponents as fakes and traitors.

Obama is being torn down by people like you because you can’t prove the merits of your policies or your leaders on the merits. So, you distract people by making false claims.

You can call us whatever names you want, but your reliance on these falsehoods is clear evidence of how far your party’s quality has sunk.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at January 31, 2012 12:50 PM
Comment #335430

Stephen, Again, what West did was wrong, I agreed with that. His punishment was just and fair. I am saying to you and any others who haven’t been in similar situations, you may be the most level headed person in the world but in a situation when your life and the lives of others are in danger you don’t know what you would do. You don’t understand what being in a combat situation is like, and you don’t know what you would do especially in a place like Iraq where the enemy blends in with the frendly. Even a super careful person will make mistakes.

Posted by: KAP at January 31, 2012 1:27 PM
Comment #335431

Bill-
Are you saying that I should forsake economic and environmental considerations in my choice of car, or practical considerations, for the sake of my politics?

I guess we can chose how we want our decisions to be consistent. I think practical considerations should outweigh political. I think the market should be a deciding factor in our economy. I think competition works.

I’m a capitalist, so I have no problem deciding things in terms of my own economic self-interest. If a person like me doesn’t make fuel economy and low cost considerations in our market decisions, what pressure will there be on GM to improve? I hope to look at more suitable hybrid vehicles when I’m in the market for a new car in 2015. In the meantime, I made the decision that made sense, even if it doesn’t satisfy your sense of political correctness on my part.

I expect everybody to look at GM vehicles in terms of their quality, and buy them if they are willing to buy them, on whatever grounds are relevant. I don’t expect people to buy cars based on political considerations.

Stephen Daugherty, the reason you love to publish your real name is for infamy. It is a trait of a narcissist. The reason your comments are so lengthy is because you think your important, God’s gift to the lowly ignorant conservative writers. It’s all about SD.

Infamy? Are you telling me I want to be poorly thought of? That’s a laugh. I didn’t post my name so people like you could crap on it. I decided these matters were too important to post about them under some silly pseudonym, and that I would hold myself more accountable for what I said if people could trace it back to me.

I detect a certain level of resentment here. You talk of class envy, are you just so insecure about your own intelligence that you feel it necessary to accuse me of trying to make you feel stupid?

Well, if you feel stupid, that’s your problem, not mine. I just call conservatives on the BS.

Stephen, instead of writing such lengthy essays and telling us how the military should operate, perhaps you should get on your knees and thank God you live in a nation that offers so much freedom.

My whole essay above is about celebrating the fact that some extremist in Florida can’t force me to abandon my country. So you know what? I can do both, and all your arrogant orders can’t make me do otherwise.

You’ve sat down and judged me as an enemy of the troops out there, because you’ve taken at face value the slanders that underly the notion that dissent to Bush’s policies was disloyalty. You never thought to use your freedom to question that point of view, you’ve just assumed it to be the truth.

You’re wrong, and your lack of imagination doesn’t constitute treason or disloyalty on my part. I will keep on making my points on honest terms, and you will keep on trashing me, because that is how you’ve been taught to argue politics.

Stephen Daugherty, again you show your false sense of outrage. When the media showed video after video of a man at an Obama healthcare gathering in AZ who was armed, you condemned all Tea Partier conservatives as being gun toting threats to society. Not to mention the fact that it was never revealed by the MSM that this man was black, and was within his legal right to carry. This is further evidence of liberal double standards.

He wasn’t the first Tea Partier seen wielding a weapon, and the outrageous rhetoric on the right about Obama coming to take your guns hasn’t helped.

Don’t you find the wielding of a gun at a protest meant to draw the notice of a President, with signs that talk about the watering of the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants and all that just somewhat disturbing? I mean, hell, the first Republican President was shot, and he wasn’t the last President to get hit by a bullet. Hell, Reagan was shot, and it almost killed him.

Ah, but we shouldn’t worry about people brandishing weapons at rallies down the road from where the President is speaking.

That’s the thing, you know. You talk as if things that are rational, non-partisan concerns like this are just some kind of partisan plot to discredit your people. Have you considered that perhaps your behavior, especially the yelling and the conspiracy theories reflects negatively on you for reasons that go beyond politics?

I do more research than most people on this site, by the way. That’s how I fill out much of what I write, and often how I rebut their points. There was reason to question Bush’s military record, he did indeed miss many of the drills he was obligated to attend. There was reason to question his intellectual rigor, too, with the inarticulate way he spoke and his way of relying on pat, bumper-sticker style ideas instead of thinking things through.

I get the feeling sometimes that part of what motivates the hateful rhetoric towards Obama is the wish to throw back at Obama what liberals threw at Bush. Problem is, many of our complaints were well founded, while your issues, like whether the President was born here, or earned his degree, are largely figments of your imagination. The outrage wasn’t false. The Bush Administration did in fact blow things on multiple occasions.

Go back through my posts and comment. You’ll find me backing my assertions at many points. I dissented against his administration on the substance.

Your MO here seems to be to try and turn every negative thing we said about Bush back on Obama, to try and make believe that you didn’t choose any less poorly with your leader than anybody else. The truth is, though, you don’t hear the same complaints about Obama outside the right that you do about Bush, because Obama is a much better President. The fact that your assaults have failed to render him uncompetitive just goes to show that it takes more than just words to truly make a President look bad.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at January 31, 2012 1:38 PM
Comment #335434

“Your MO here seems to be to try and turn every negative thing we said about Bush back on Obama, to try and make believe that you didn’t choose any less poorly with your leader than anybody else. The truth is, though, you don’t hear the same complaints about Obama outside the right that you do about Bush, because Obama is a much better President. The fact that your assaults have failed to render him uncompetitive just goes to show that it takes more than just words to truly make a President look bad.”


Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at January 31, 2012 1:38 PM

1. And Daugherty, thank you for admitting that their were negative attcks on Bush.

2. Obama is a terrible president, a divider and not a uniter, a spender of working peoples money, and a creator of class envy.

3. Obama looks bad on his own; it is only the ignorants on the left who continue to defend thi idiot.

Posted by: Bill at January 31, 2012 2:02 PM
Comment #335435

KAP,

“You don’t understand what being in a combat situation is like…”

You keep repeating this phrase as if nobody but those that have been in this position can possibly understand that sometimes in the heat of battle shit happens.

We get it, but that doesn’t mean Allen West should be deified for flapping his gums.

“America love it or leave it” was a simplistic phrase when it was uttered in the ’60s, and it is doubly so now. The right bitches about how the left wants to homogenize this country, yet will brook no dissent to it’s “my way or the highway” attitude.

Very few of America’s founders knew what it was to be in combat, and few of our leaders over the life of this country have had that knowledge.

All of this may become moot for West. the GOP dominated Legislature in Florida has changed his district to the point that he will be hard pressed to get re-elected.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at January 31, 2012 2:06 PM
Comment #335436

And as I stated earlier Rocky, West is Florida’s problem. Do you live in Florida in his district? Do you remember Alan Grayson and his gum flapping, Murtha’s lame accusations of the Marines at Haditha, Biden’s famous gaffs? It’s Florida’s problem I have enough with my representatives. If the people of West’s district want to put up with him that’s their business not mine. Grayson got dumped Murtha got re elected, Biden slowed down. If you don’t live in Florida, worry about your own representatives.

Posted by: KAP at January 31, 2012 2:20 PM
Comment #335437

By the way Rocky I keep harping on the combat thing because Stephen dosen’t seem to get the fact that CRAP HAPPENS IN BATTLE SITUATIONS.

Posted by: KAP at January 31, 2012 2:22 PM
Comment #335439

Bill-
I don’t think I was concealing the fact that we said negative things about Bush to begin with. If it was a secret, it was poorly kept to be sure.

On your second point? It’s condensed propaganda, once again. You blame Obama for essentially paying for two wars, the medicare drug benefit, Medicare Advantage, the DoHS, the Bush Tax Cuts and all the revenue lost in the economic crash of 2008. He’s added maybe three percent in actual spending, compared something like sixty percent of the deficit on Bush and the GOP’s part. But of course, that won’t be acknowledged, because cutting taxes can’t possibly create deficits, just spending.

It’s political sleight of hand, but of course you won’t acknowledge this.

You accuse him of being divisive, but the public’s curiously unwilling to buy it, consistently ranking him higher as the man willing to deal and compromise with the other side. Meanwhile… Well, just read back through your comments. You’re not exactly on a charm offensive with the rest of us. Do you call us socialists, communists, traitors to be a uniter?

You’ve heard this official line on Obama, and you’re repeating it back. I don’t buy it because I don’t accept that line of propaganda. It seems tailor-made to obfuscate the true qualities of the President. Why else attack the intelligence and the speaking ability of an eloquent, well educated man like him?

I don’t buy what your selling, and your attitude doesn’t close the deal well, I’m sorry to say.

KAP-
Yeah, I got that message from you the first dozen times you made it. Have you considered that perhaps I acknowledge the difficulties, but hold to a philosophy that abides by making such difficult decisions as well as possible, despite the tough circumstances?

Long story short, I’m a believer in doing the best even when it’s impossible to get it perfect. We must balance the willingness to admit we are only human, and others as well, with the willingness to admit that things can’t and shouldn’t all be swept under the rug.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at January 31, 2012 3:02 PM
Comment #335440

Stephen, And that is what West thought but was wrong and has paid for his mistake. Even the most rational of persons are irrational at times. As far as his resent rants as I stated it Florida’s problem.

Posted by: KAP at January 31, 2012 3:11 PM
Comment #335443

SD wrote; “The question is, at the end, whether you really encourage self-reliance if a person can’t live on the wage they make. The question is, do you really encourage self-reliance if all the costs of living outweigh the money they make.”

Excellent subject to discuss…wages and cost of living. Is the problem wages or the increase of the cost of living?

Do taxes and government regulations affect wages and cost of living? Yes, of course they do. We all know why health care keeps going up, it’s simply a result of Medicare and Medicaid pushing up prices. Unnecessary regulations on business and on private individuals have a huge impact on our cost of living.

SD blames the widening divide between wages and cost of living on just wages when he should consider both.

Does $3.50 per gallon gasoline, and even higher costs of fuel oil and diesel have an impact on cost of living? Of course it does as well as the additional cost to families of the stupid, ignorant program to burn food for fuel. Food costs are spiraling ever upward and one can look to government for the reason.

Is the higher cost of education a result of government actions in paying ever more to these institution in the form of grants and loans…of course it is.

We have government regulating and taxing nearly every aspect of our daily lives. Is it any wonder that wages haven’t kept up with these additional burdens to our cost of living?

Government is responsible for wages not keeping up with cost of living. And more government will not create new or better jobs, merely cause cost of living to increase even more.

Posted by: Royal Flush at January 31, 2012 4:06 PM
Comment #335448

Royal Flush-
You sound more like a communist than I have ever sounded. Every price increase you speak of, you blame on the government. Some are the results of government policies, mind you.

The high gas prices, in part, are a result of deregulation of energy trading, which allows speculators to more easily play the the market and then dump the commodity to make money. That program to create Ethanol? Part of a Republican-passed, Republican signed bill.

High tuition prices? Government aid doesn’t really show up, but do you know what does? A lot of stuff about spending on fancy dorms, about the way colleges price themselves in order to avoid looking cut-rate in undesirable ways, and the reduction, not the increase of government aid and funding.

You’ve got a theory, but you’re not looking for that theory to be put to the test. You want it vindicated, so you’ll just claim it outright without even doing your research.

World’s more complicated than the explanations we create for things, so we better do our best to keep up with what’s actually going on, rather than simply make fact-free assumptions.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at January 31, 2012 5:22 PM
Comment #335453

Royal Flush,

You seem like an intelligent person but this comment begs some explanation: “We all know why health care keeps going up, it’s simply a result of Medicare and Medicaid pushing up prices.”

Medicare and Medicaid reimburse health providers at a rate substantially lower than private insurers. They set the bar on rates for all insurance providers. Why? Because, they have significantly lower overhead costs and are more efficient insurers. They also leverage their substantial market share to contain reimbursement costs. Those facts are not in serious dispute. So, what is the basis of your argument? What large health insurance provider outperforms Medicare or Medicaid? How exactly is Medicare driving up health care costs?

If you thought about it, one of the most egregious failures of the Medicare Part D, drug program passed by a Republican Congress and signed by Bush is the restriction on Medicare’s ability to negotiate a bulk purchase price on medications for its insured. Conservatives basically turned the concept of a free market on its head.

The principal purchaser (Medicare) cannot negotiate the price it is willing to pay for drugs. It must pay what Big Pharma wants. Combined with generous patent laws, the Medicare Part D legislation was the icing on the cake for a government giveaway to Big Pharma disguised as a “benefit” to seniors.

Quite frankly, it would have been better to simply allow seniors to “piggy back” on Canada and purchase from Canadian pharmacies where the provincial health plans can actually negotiate pricing with pharmaceutical companies. The additional millions of US seniors would have provided them with substantially increased bargaining power. Jeez, and you guys talk about the power of free markets.


Posted by: Rich at January 31, 2012 7:38 PM
Comment #335454


In 2008, the average price of gasoline was $3.35 per gal. even though the price had dropped to around $1.90 per gal. by the end of the year because of the beginning of the recession. The average cost today was $3.44 per gal. according to the AAA. Here it was $3.27 per gal.

Food prices were inflated considerably during the Bush Administration and there has been a considerable amount of food inflation over the last year.

Considering that we have had more than two decades of wage depression, the cost of living is impacted by both inflation and wages.

Wage stagnation, inflation, and the growing gap between the wealthiest and the rest of us is what has moved the OWS issues of inequality and fairness into the mainstream.

The Republican attack on working class Americans and wages will continue, especially at the state level, until or unless working class Americans come to their senses and stop allowing themselves to be divided.

Posted by: jlw at January 31, 2012 8:06 PM
Comment #335457

As far as I can see, the Republican’s political strategy is this: keep the country starved for solutions to their problems, then blame Obama for the products of the obstruction they themselves create.

But it’s more than that. They want Obama to take the fall for Bush’s mistakes, big government to take the fall for small government’s failures, spending that has been mostly paid for, or paid this country back dividends in jobs kept and gain, growth restarted, for unpaid for spending they aren’t even honest enough to admit to anymore.

In short, faced with the burden of a legacy of failure, the GOP’s solution is to scapegoat somebody else, and keep doing the same things they did before.

They can’t imagine that the policies they’ve been told for decades are perfect and holy might not be effective at all. They’ve bought into their own propaganda about themselves and about us, and even now expect us all to just take it for granted.

Personally, I’ve had enough of this. We need different policies. The Republicans were given more than their fair chance to make things work. Now people want something different, and they’re too stubborn to budge.

Well you know what? The OWS protests you laugh at have changed the tone of the politics, and now even your people are using our language to attack each other. Why? Because it is no longer taken for granted that what benefits the elite in this country will benefit those below.

Whether you like it or not, change is coming, and has already come. The sand is washing away under your feet, and if you don’t move before the tide comes in, you’ll find yourself all wet.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at January 31, 2012 8:47 PM
Comment #335487

By your endorsement of OWS you also endorse the following:


REPORTED OCCUPY TEA PARTY

ARRESTS 4,149+ 0
RAPES 12 0
DAMAGE $10,000,000.00 $0
PUBLIC DEFECATION YES NO
ANTI-SEMITIC RANTS 12 0
COST TO TAXPAYERS $19,327,487.00+ $0
PUBLIC MASTURBATION 3 0
MOLOTOV COCKTAILS 10 0
FIGHTS STARTED YES NO
CHILDREN EXPLOITED YES NO
POLICE CARS DAMAGED 2 0
PUBLIC DRUNKENNESS YES NO
DRUG POSSESSION ARREST YES NO
CONCEALED WEAPON ARREST YES NO
DRUG OVERDOSE YES NO
THEFTS YES NO
BURGLARIES YES NO
VANDALISM ARREST YES NO
TRESPASSING ARREST YES NO
NON FATAL SHOOTINGS 1 0
PUBLIC URINATION YES NO
URINATION ON OTHERS YES NO
ISRAELI FLAGS BURNED 2 0
AM.FLAGS BURNED 1 0
AM.FLAGS DANCED ON 1 0
AM.FLAG DESECRATION 25 0
FELONY ASSAULT ON EMT 1 0
LICE OUTBREAKS 1 0
TUBERCULOSIS OUTBREAKS 1 0
MURDER 1 0
SUICIDE 1 0
SHOTS FIRED AT WH 1 0
SCABIES OUTBREAKS 1 0
OBAMA ENDORSED IT YES NO
PELOSI ENDORSED IT YES NO
CAIR ENDORSED IT YES NO
SOCIALIST ENDORSED YES NO
NAZI PARTY ENDORSED YES NO
MUSLIM BROTH. ENDORSED YES NO
CPUSA ENDORSED YES NO
BIDEN ENDORSED YES NO
HUGO CHAVEZ ENDORSED YES NO
BLACK PANTHERS ENDORSED YES NO
HEZBOLLAH ENDORSED YES NO
MARXIST UNION ENDORSED YES NO
9/11 TRUTHER ENDORSED YES NO
BOLSHEVIK ENDORSED YES NO
IRAN GOV. ENDORSED YES NO
AYATOLLAH ENDORSED YES NO
NORTH KOREA ENDORSED YES NO
FARRAKHAN ENDORSED YES NO
NAT. OF ISLAM ENDORSED YES NO

Posted by: tom humes at February 1, 2012 12:42 PM
Comment #335495

tom humes-
The problem with many of your categories is that they’re meant to be hasty generalizations. All you would have to do is find one moron out of the millions who protested, and you could get a yes answer to many of your questions.

That would not translate, though, to a protest-wide endorsement of all those things, which is what you’re trying to imply.

The reality is, the vast majority of what we truly endorsed is rather mundane, rather mainstream stuff, and that’s one of the reason the otherwise cautious Democrats feel comfortable adopting OWS Rhetoric.

So, as intimidating as all the capital letters might be at first glance, I’d say this: our movement will be more successful than your movement. It’s already proven unable to create a successful Presidential candidate. Not even Newt Gingrich or Ron Paul are making enough of a dent to keep Mitt Romney from taking Florida, and likely other primaries. The best you will be able to do this election, if you don’t want to vote for RINO just to defeat Obama, is hobble your own candidate to Obama’s benefit.

You really should get that Caps Lock key fixed. You didn’t break it in the process of cutting and pasting some e-mail list?

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at February 1, 2012 2:54 PM
Comment #335496

SD

Thanks for the usual rhetorical pap crap. You said nothing of meaning. Call the list what you want. Facts are Facts. Notice the capital “F”.

Maranatha

Posted by: tom humes at February 1, 2012 3:25 PM
Comment #335498

tom humes-
Well, which capital F? Your list has several.

Seriously, though, your argument amounts to two things: guilt by association, and argument by appearances.

In other words, imply moral decay, personal uncleanliness, and of course association with nasty political forces from abroad. One problem with this argument is that you folks overuse it into tedium. I hear you folks say nothing but this all day, every day. I don’t remember the last time I came onto this site without having one of you bring up socialism in some fashion. You might as well put up a sign that says “Standard Republican Rhetoric at work!”

But on a more logical basis, your argument is that because somebody, anybody associated with the OWS movement supported a not-nice person or country, because somebody didn’t poop, pee, or do whatever in the right place, because one or two people committed actual crimes in or near the protests, whatever we’re saying is invalidated, or burdened by the association with an infection of its wrongness.

That, by the way, is itself an invalid argument. You might as well post that picture of Nicholas Cage with the photoshopped hair saying, “My Hair is a Bird, your Argument is Invalid.”

I mean, sound the sentence out: Somebody got raped at an OWS protest, therefore their points about economic inequality are untrue.

Nope, doesn’t work.

Sound this out: Somebody pooped in public at an OWS rally, therefore their point about Secretaries getting taxed at a higher rate than their billionaire bosses being unfair is invalid.

Wow, no, that doesn’t work either.

The idea that a few people supporting Chavez at an OWS rally makes it necessarily true that by supporting OWS, I support Chavez to is itself textbook fallacy.

So is your insulting of my arguments. Just because you can’t stand to admit you took the wrong side of an argument doesn’t mean you haven’t already lost that argument. Anybody looking at my argument on fair terms will concede I won, even if you don’t.

You’re too used to using Gingrich-style attacks, rather than arguing things on truly logical basis. Even if all those facts are true, there are limits to what they, by necessity, can imply with any kind of proper inference.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at February 1, 2012 4:29 PM
Comment #335504

SD, could you please outline for us the solutions that have been put forth by OWS. Sorry, I don’t follow them and don’t know.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 1, 2012 5:43 PM
Comment #335507


Tom Humes:

“Did you see those BB stackers, stacking their 500 pounders One of them messes up, he kills himself and his buddies. If you mess up, you will fry 17,500 people and put a great big hole in the state of North Dakota.”

Posted by: jlw at February 1, 2012 5:59 PM
Comment #335510

Royal Flush-
Basic reforms of Wall Street in order to prevent further disasters, equitable taxation of the wealthy and of corporations, re-regulation of labor in order to curb employer abuses, removing incentives to ship jobs overseas, prosecution of those who committed financial crimes in the recent crisis to the fullest extend of the law, and of course undoing the damage of Citizens United. Those are the basic ideas in a nutshell.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at February 1, 2012 8:43 PM
Comment #335525

OWS is a radicl left operation guided by CPUSA and other left groups. They have no intention of what you printed that want to do. All they want to do is destroy America. Nothing more and nothing less. They have been doing this for over 8 decades. Their claims are bogus rhetoric. I will repeat. If you support OWS you do not support America.

Maranatha

Posted by: tom humes at February 2, 2012 11:52 AM
Comment #335529

Tom Humes, asking Daugherty to condemn the OWS protests is like trying to get him to find ANY fault with his messiah Obama. He cannot find fault with either because he supports everything they do; including breaking the economy, bankrupting companies, takeover of corporations, racism, anti-semitism, civil unrest, rapes, anti-Americanism, and everything else on the list.

Posted by: Frank at February 2, 2012 2:00 PM
Comment #335532

Thanks SD for the vague generalization of what the street mob (OWS) wishes to accomplish.

Are you quite certain that Wall Street is at the root of our recent disasters? Reform congress first and Wall Street will follow.

What do you consider “equitable taxation” of the wealthy and corporations? For what purpose? Where will these increased taxes be spent to the benefit of all Americans?

I have no idea what is meant by “re-regulation of Labor” to curb employer abuses. Have we not enough laws on the books now?

As for removal of incentives to ship jobs overseas, I am certain that you can not even begin to explain what is meant by this.

Financial crimes? Whose justice department is not prosecuting them?

Citizens United was a decision of our Supreme Court. Elections do have consequences.

In stating the goals of OWS you could not be more vague in outlining how they hope to provide solutions to their supposed grievances.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 2, 2012 3:14 PM
Comment #335552

Tom Humes & Frank,

You guys seem to believe that your opinion is sacrosanct. You whine and bitch when anyone tries to lump you in with the republicans, yet you are all too willing to condemn a whole group for the actions of a few.

Typical.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at February 3, 2012 11:28 AM
Comment #335553
I will repeat. If you support OWS you do not support America.

BS Tom. I support OWS and I support America. If fact I believe just the opposite, if you don’t support OWS then you don’t support America. Instead you support a corporate state that puts business entities above people and government.

Posted by: j2t2 at February 3, 2012 1:49 PM
Comment #335556

Just curious j2t2, does burning the American flag indicate support for the country?

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 3, 2012 2:57 PM
Comment #335560


While I am not one to burn the flag in protest, perhaps if I were 20, the fact that an American citizen can burn the flag in protest of government policies is a powerful symbol of Americas difference compared to the Saddam’s and the Chinese of this world. I think we all know how they would probably react.

IMO, burning the flag in protest is a symbol of our freedom as much so as waving it blindly.

The Progressive Movement, the Civil Rights Movement, and the Anti-Vietnam War protests were all infiltrated by agents and provocateurs.

Posted by: jlw at February 3, 2012 4:07 PM
Comment #335562
Just curious j2t2, does burning the American flag indicate support for the country?

I would venture a guess it represents anger towards the government Royal. Did throwing tea off of a ship in Boston Harbor indicate support for America? I would suggest that it is/was more a form of protest against the corpocracy that is ruining the country Royal. Both then and now.

How ironic that once again conservatives are up in arms defending the corpocracy status quo as they did in the 1770’s.

How ironic that once again those on the left are trying to save capitalism while capitalism is destroying our democracy, just like FDR during the great depression. While conservatives are protecting the banksters under the guise of freedom.

Posted by: j2t2 at February 3, 2012 4:38 PM
Comment #335570


Meanwhile Gingrich keeps channeling the OWS. Newt’s latest, Soros has endorsed both Obama and Romney.

Newt’s Teddy Roosevelt persona scared the hell out of the Republican establishment. People Power?

To paraphrase one of the Robber Barons speaking about T.R. ‘We bought the S.O.B. and he didn’t stay bought.’

The Republican establishment donors could have funded Gingrich and quite possibly secured his nomination. But, the establishment turned it’s back on Newt when he had his ethics problems and they turned their backs on him early in the primary process. They know that he can’t be trusted. They know that he could possibly do as T.R. did. Better for the Republican establishment to stick with Rubber Stamp Romney. IMO, the Republican establishment is underestimating how miserable the tea party politicians can make life for both Romney and the establishment.

Those guys have already made Boehner the weakest Majority Leader in history because of their determination to walk the right wing walk rather than just talk the talk. The Republican establishment may be worried about the perception that the Republicans are being obstructionists, but not the tea party politicians.

Posted by: jlw at February 3, 2012 6:06 PM
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