Democrats & Liberals Archives

Divided we fall

On Tuesday, September 11th 2001, after America suffered such a tragic day, where everyone equally felt empty and dizzy but oddly united. On that tragic day, there were no Republicans, Democrats, Christians, Jews, blacks or whites; there were only Americans. No one cared about whether you made seven figures or you were on welfare; we were Americans and we all, equally, felt the emptiness and sorrow for our nation’s loss. Personally, I can only imagine that this feeling of hurt and unity was similarly felt by Americans in 1941 as a Japanese aerial attack severely damaged a naval fleet in Pearl Harbor. Where Pearl Harbor was situated in serene Hawaii, a place where few Americans were able to experience; on 9/11 we were attacked on our mainland and the most famous city in the world: New York City. On that day, everyone was a New Yorker. Everyone was united.


On Wednesday 9/12, as the smoldering ruins continued to spew into the New York airspace, everyone in America began to wonder: "How can I help?" Many made pilgrimages to New York City to help in anyway. Some drove all night to arrive to a damaged city, to help bandage, help food, help shelter their fellow Americans in their time of need. In my neighborhood, a spontaneous march of all my neighbors, labored through the streets as neighbor upon neighbor joined the march in some weird walk to nowhere; ending up at a cul-de-sac that featured a talk by a neighbor whose son survived escaping one the surrounding World Trade Center buildings. She tearfully played a voicemail left by her son informing her that he was safe. We were lucky and we were united.

Sadly many were not safe. Many throughout the country labored through a dizzy aftershock. Many, including myself, awoke on Wednesday wondering what the world was like now. What what the point of going to work? Was there a place to go? Did the company exist or did everything transform overnight to do something for the greater good? Wednesday September 12th was an eye-opener; the world had changed.

It took a shared tragedy to unify America.

The unity spread world-wide. Leaders of the rest of the world stood shoulder-to-shoulder with the United States as a show of support and solidarity. Good was to prevail; not evil. Good was to prevail through unity and, like an odd variation of the Grinch Who Stole Christmas, America was Whoville and Whoville stood united in the face of evil.

Funny thing happened shortly after those fateful days; Whoville went back to work.

Instead of everyone in America working toward a shared, united vision; America went back to work. We worked to gain back normalcy...to gain a purpose. Surely putting food on my table, educating your my children was a valid way of healing America. But while America went back at work, in our pre-9/11 routines, other forces took over. These forces lead the country not to unity, but rather to a divisive mass. With rhetoric similar to other maniacal leaders, similar messages began to emerge: "Either you are with us or you're against us.", "those who harbor terrorists are no different than the terrorists themselves". The message of unity was now turned on its head. Black became white. Up became down.

The division began and it stuck.

Republicans became Republicans again. Democrats became Democrats again. But this time the game changed. Disagreement was categorized as dissent and anti-American. As year after year of slogans and messages began to erode the unity, we, as Americans, awoke to a new reality; Osama Bin Laden, the half-witted messiah that ushered lemmings to their death in the name of Allah and mastermind of an orchestrated attack on the heart of America, Osama Bin Laden had succeeded; he won.

America was hit not with Bin Laden's message but rather, America was hit within; America lost to Bin Laden because instead of uniting against forces like al qaeda , we divided ourselves to support a new dogma.

Now we sit. Ten long years passed. America sits as divided as it ever has been, probably for as far back as when Lincoln was in office. A nation where shouting replaced conversation, where might became right and where as a nation, we stopped listening.

i was asked recently by a friend about what i though about the state of the country. I will use a phrase that I've heard from someone smart I know: We are doomed. At a time when the middle America is shrinking at an alarming rate; when the class divide becomes deeper and deeper, when everyone, I mean, everyone, knows someone that lost their job or their home; we focus not on helping but on hurting. Instead of uniting together to help heal our country, we are busy trying to divide it. Instead of dusting ourselves off, rolling up our sleeves and getting our nation back to work, as the greatest generation did in the 40s and 50s, we yell and point fingers. Instead of trying to solve our nation's problems; many focus our efforts on tearing down our President instead of supporting our President. Instead of working together to solve our nation's many, many deep problems, we focus on what divides us rather than what unites us.

So yes, we are doomed. Not because of debt, deficit, government spending, taxes, differences between economic philosophies or some symbolic color of a state. No. We are doomed because we've stopped caring about each other.

Posted by john trevisani at September 8, 2011 1:24 PM
Comments
Comment #328857

john, using 9/11 to call for support of obama’s policies is a new low. To deride President Bush’s words you quoted as “maniacal” is simply outrageous.

Your post is not about bringing people together. It is thinly veiled political crap.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 8, 2011 2:19 PM
Comment #328860

Royal Flush: Wow. Didn’t see that one coming. i certainly didn’t see ANYWHERE in the post that i was supporting Obama’s policies.

Obviously the post wasn’t clear to you: the comment about supporting the President in regards to focusing your attention on the REAL problems within this country, not the manufactured problems. The employment rate in the country is the lowest it’s been in almost 30 years (at about 58%). Until we all work together to solve that problem, we’re doomed.

Posted by: john trevisani at September 8, 2011 2:43 PM
Comment #328864

Thanks for the clarification john. When one writes that we should support the president it most likely means to support his policies. My attention is focused on jobs and our economy and I certainly don’t need the president to help me focus on that.

The next election will certainly center on those two issues and the president will have to explain why his policies have not worked very well.

john, why did you find it necessary to call President Bush’s comments you quoted as, “maniacal”?

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 8, 2011 3:15 PM
Comment #328879

History has shown that the republican policies have also been a failure. Both sides of the aisle will have to explain why neither were able to achieve the unachievable. The same old “trickle down” economic theory used in the past with poor results can’t be rehashed as some new policy either. It failed and the lack of regulation some are proposing (again) not only ruined the American economy but the global economy. So while you’re quick to say all Obama’s policies arent working or going to work, you don’t have some huge track record of success to fall back on.

Posted by: Paul at September 8, 2011 4:26 PM
Comment #328892

I am afraid I agree JT.

The ‘give me more’ vs. ‘leave me alone’ fight will probably come to a head real soon. Especially if the Obama loses in 2012.

Posted by: kctim at September 8, 2011 5:46 PM
Comment #328895

We should agree when helping the president kick the asses of America’s enemies.

We should not agree about economic policies, social policies or much of anything else.

We should always respect our president and assume he is doing things that he thinks are best for the country. This means Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush and Obama. Where have we heard criticisms?

re caring about each other - we have become a more diverse country and that leads to differences and less trust. We can probably never return to the consensus of the 1950s and few of us really would want that anyway. We need to have a more “left alone” idea. That is the only way a diverse society can “come together”.

Posted by: C&J at September 8, 2011 6:29 PM
Comment #328915

Our nation will never return to the consensus of the 1950’s. The divisions and name calling started when the Democrats lost a 40 year control of the Congress. Everything is fine when the Democrats were in control and did just about anything they wanted. Republicans in those days were tolerated by the ruling Democrats. They even let the Republicans pass a token bill every once in awhile. But when the Democrats lost control, everything changed. If you will remember, there were many Democrat Senators who retired rather than be part of a minority. Then you add to this the advent of FOX News in 1996, and the information began to flow. Then came the ability to freely pass information on the internet; the American voter was no longer spoon fed selected information by the big 3 medias. And those same Medias and major liberal newspapers are dinosaurs today. The die is cast; we have 2 ideologies today, liberal socialism and conservativism. An educated people are making a decision. You will notice it is the ignorant masses who are still spoon fed the socialist agenda of liberals, who still support Democrats; but as they become enlightened to the truth, they will also look upon liberals as socialist. The truth will set them free.

Posted by: Mike at September 8, 2011 10:43 PM
Comment #328922

I couldn’t agree more.

Posted by: Dave at September 9, 2011 1:23 AM
Comment #328924

Quite simply to both Mike and Dave….. What a crock !!

Posted by: jane doe at September 9, 2011 3:36 AM
Comment #328926

Mike,

“The divisions and name calling started when the Democrats lost a 40 year control of the Congress.”

For someone who constantly accuses people to the left of not knowing history, your comments show a total lack of knowledge on the subject of history.

The term “East coast liberal” was used in the fifties, and sixties. Joe Pyne used the word liberal as a pejorative on his radio show in the sixties. Spiro Agnew railed against “liberal intellectuals” when he was VP.
Rush Limbaugh, whose radio show went into syndication in 1988, proclaimed himself liberated from the East Germany of liberal media domination after the “Fairness Doctrine” was rescinded in 1987.

“Then you add to this the advent of FOX News in 1996, and the information bull**** began to flow.”

Your attempts to equate liberalism with socialism are merely icing on the cake.

“Republicans in those days were tolerated by the ruling Democrats.”

This is utter crap.

Please, do us all a favor and do some research somewhere other than the far right blogosphere before you put your fingers on the keyboard.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at September 9, 2011 9:01 AM
Comment #328932

RM, I don’t know how old you are, but I am not saying something I read; I was there and I saw what happened in the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. And what I said is true, and your rhetorical statements don’t change anything.

Let me ask you RM, do you remember Democrat Senators retiring because they were no longer in power and had become part of the minority? I do, and I remember them saying it.

And it is a fact; the Democrats controlled the Congress for so many years that Republicans were considered nothing more than token representatives from the other side of the isle. Republicans couldn’t stop any single bill the Democrats proposed. It was a lopsided control. Except for 4 years, the Democrats controlled the Senate from 1933 until 1981, and except for a 2 year period the Democrats’ controlled the House from 1933 until 1995. There were times during these years when the Republican House and Senate were as low as 20% of the Congress. When Democrats lost control; they could not believe they were no longer in charge of committees and no longer held the purse strings. This is what created the evil rhetoric and partisanship in the Congress. That is not to say there were individual Republican Politians who were outraged at the Democrat control, but these outrages were short lived. Most Republicans in those days were what we now called RINO’s and were allowed to attend the parties and fit in with the DC crowd. The growth of conservativism in the past 30-40 years is phenomenal. And it is during these same years that the Democrat Party has been hijacked by ultra left liberals. There was a time when the Democratic Party was actually more moderate. The American people didn’t really have a problem with Democrats. They had the support of the industrial working class and unions, which were much larger in those days. It was even a day when Democrat Presidents did not believe government workers should unionize. But those days are gone, and those Democrats are gone, and what we now have is a Democrat Party who has lost their base and spend all their time personally attacking opponents, dividing America, and trying to scare old people. But information and knowledge have changed things and thank God for FOX News and Rush Limbaugh; they were the voices of freedom crying in the wilderness.

Posted by: Mike at September 9, 2011 10:11 AM
Comment #328943

Well said Mike.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 9, 2011 2:58 PM
Comment #328944

Mike,

“RM, I don’t know how old you are…”

I am about the same age as John of Christine & John. My step-father was an arch-conservative (probably further to the right than you), my mother not so much.

So back to the point;

Most of the Democrats that retired from the House or Senate after the election had been in national politics at least 20 years (some 40 and 50), and were of the age they might retire anyway. DeConcini retired in the aftermath of the Keating scandal. Some from the house stepped aside to run for the Senate. Others had their own issues to contend with.

“When Democrats lost control; they could not believe they were no longer in charge of committees and no longer held the purse strings. This is what created the evil rhetoric and partisanship in the Congress.”

No, it’s not, and I would ask what happened after the 2006 elections? The Republicans went stark raving boogie cookies.

There has always been rhetoric. Politics has always been a full contact sport (see the Jackson/Adams campaign).
Reagan seemed work fairly well with his Democratic Congress. How do you explain that away?

“Except for 4 years, the Democrats controlled the Senate from 1933 until 1981, and except for a 2 year period the Democrats’ controlled the House from 1933 until 1995. There were times during these years when the Republican House and Senate were as low as 20% of the Congress.”

Seems to me that any blame here lay with the voters, not with Democrats.

“…the Democrats controlled the Congress for so many years that Republicans were considered nothing more than token representatives from the other side of the isle. Republicans couldn’t stop any single bill the Democrats proposed.”

As I tried to explain to Royal, Republicans and Democrats actually worked together.
As an example, Everett Dirksen (R-IL) helped write and pass “The Civil Rights At of 1964”, and “The Open Housing Act of 1968”.

Should we consider these pieces of legislation “token”?

Dirksen was a conservative, and hardly a wallflower.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at September 9, 2011 3:24 PM
Comment #328955


“Seems to me that any blame here lay with the voters, not with Democrats.”

Yes, a generation of voters commonly referred to as America’s greatest generation.

Mike, did you know that from 1886 to 1932, Roosevelt was the only Democrat to win the presidency with a majority of the popular vote.

Mike, look up the record, see how much of the Bush/ Republican agenda. was passed with a majority of Democrats voting in favor of them. Compare that to Obama and his problem of getting even one Republican vote in Congress.

Posted by: jlw at September 9, 2011 7:40 PM
Comment #328960

RM, some of you guys on the left are really ignorant, aren’t you? I did not say the legislation was token, I said the minority of Republicans were token.

Senators who are in the majority do not retire, unless it is for health or ethic reasons. Most Senators, like Robert Byrd and Strom Thurman, are carried out; because it is about power.

“As I tried to explain to Royal, Republicans and Democrats actually worked together.
As an example, Everett Dirksen (R-IL) helped write and pass “The Civil Rights At of 1964”, and “The Open Housing Act of 1968”.”

Yes RM and the Democrat Party of the 60’s is not the same Democrat Party of today. How many times have I had to read the writings of Stephen Daugherty and others, explaining to me that the Southern Democrats of the 60’s were really Republicans. Which Democrats was it that voted against Johnson’s Civil Rights Bill? Was it the socialist liberal Democrats or was it the blue dog Democrats of the south? There was a time when they could work together, but that was before the party was taken over by socialists.

Is Obama a king, or is he an Emperor? From what I know of the Constitution, all three branches of government are co-equal. That means the Judicial, Legislative and Executive have equal power. What gives Obama the right to demand bills passed by the Legislative? In what part of the Constitution does it say that the Congress MUST obey the will of the President?


So RM, judging from your age, I guess you were shitting yellow in your diapers when I was voting for for my first and last Democrat. Of course if you think you know more about the history of politics simply because you can read Wikipedia, then be my guest. But your comments show your ignorance.

Posted by: Mike at September 9, 2011 8:29 PM
Comment #328962
What gives Obama the right to demand bills passed by the Legislative? In what part of the Constitution does it say that the Congress MUST obey the will of the President?

Mike this is as ignorant comment as we have seen here in a while. In what part of the Constitution does it say the President is not free to make a demand/request/plea on Congress. It doesn’t become law because the president uses forceful language in a speech. The Congress did not run out and pass this bill because the president said they must.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 9, 2011 8:59 PM
Comment #328967

Mike,

“What gives Obama the right to demand bills passed by the Legislative?”

Could that be the same right as Reagan, or Nixon, or Ford demanding bills passed by the legislative?

No it couldn’t be that.

“So RM, judging from your age, I guess you were shitting yellow in your diapers when I was voting for for my first and last Democrat.”

So that would be Truman?

I could be rude and make some comment about age and s**tty diapers, but I don’t feel the need to stoop as low as you did.

“Yes RM and the Democrat Party of the 60’s is not the same Democrat Party of today”

And neither is Republican party as run by the em-Tea party, so what’s your point?

“Most Senators, like Robert Byrd and Strom Thurman, are carried out; because it is about power.”

Yeah, those morons just gotta crave them some power.

Look pal, all I have seen from you is a lot of opinion, and a lot of parroting the party line. I don’t need Fox News, or Limbaugh, or Hannity, to give me the latest spin on the truth.

“Of course if you think you know more about the history of politics simply because you can read Wikipedia, then be my guest.”

Oh, and BTW, I get my history from books, you know, reading.

Have a life.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at September 9, 2011 11:25 PM
Comment #328968

So I guess when obamacare makes it to the Supreme Court, Obama can just conviene the Congress again and look down at the justices and demand that they uphold obamacare.

Posted by: Mike at September 9, 2011 11:59 PM
Comment #328969

“Hundreds of Longshoremen stormed the Port of Longview early Thursday, overpowered and held security guards, damaged railroad cars, and dumped grain that is the center of a labor dispute, said Longview Police Chief Jim Duscha.

Six guards were held hostage for a couple of hours after 500 or more Longshoremen broke down gates about 4:30 a.m. and smashed windows in the guard shack, he said.

No one was hurt, and nobody has been arrested. Most of the protesters returned to their union hall after cutting brake lines and spilling grain from car at the EGT terminal, Duscha said.

The International Longshore and Warehouse Union believes it has the right to work at the facility, but the company has hired a contractor that’s staffing a workforce of other union laborers.”

Thursday’s violence was first reported by Kelso radio station KLOG

2012 will be a bloody election year; the SOB’s have already started.

Posted by: Mike at September 10, 2011 12:12 AM
Comment #328970

Regarding Mike — DFT folks. It’s all flamebait, all the time. And just look at the derailment of this thread which is actually supposed to be about 9/11.

To return to the topic of 9/11, the website Truthout has been putting up interesting articles for awhile now — has anyone else besides me been reading them? Specifically have you heard about the whistleblower codenamed Ironman?

This article is from this past May:

Report: Intelligence Unit Told Before 9/11 to Stop Tracking Bin Laden

This article just went up today:

New Documents Suggest DoD Watchdog Covered Up Intelligence Unit’s Work Tracking 9/11 Terrorists

Posted by: Adrienne at September 10, 2011 1:10 AM
Comment #328971


After Southern Democrats staged a 83 day filibuster, the Civil Right Act was passed.

Vote Totals:

Senate:

Southern Democrats 1 yea and 20 Nay.

Southern Republicans O yea and 1 nay.

Northern Democrats 45 yea and 1 nay.

Northern Republicans 27 yea and 5 nay.

House original version:

Southern Democrats 7 yea and 87 nay

Southern Republicans 0 yea and 10 nay.

Northern Democrats 145 yea and 9 nay.

Northern Republicans 138 yea and 24 nay.

Total:

Northern Democrats 190 yea and 10 nay.

Southern Democrats 8 yea and 107 nay.

Northern Republicans 165 yea and 29 nay.

Southern Republicans 0 yea and 11 nay.

The significant statistic:

Northern politicians 355 yea and 39 nay.

Southern politicians 8 yea and 118 nay.

The South changed from Democrat to Republican, but it has always been dominated by conservatives.


Posted by: jlw at September 10, 2011 1:14 AM
Comment #328972

As a person who lost a friend on 9/11 ten years ago, I would really like to know why the full truth of what happened before, during and after that horrible day has been kept from us.

We the People deserve to know the truth.

Personally, I would really like to know why George W. Bush and Dick Cheney refused to testify under oath about what they knew, why they insisted on it being a secret meeting where they appeared together, and why wouldn’t allow any notes to be taken from that meeting at all.
I would also like to know why CIA information was withheld from the 9/11 Commission.
And, I would also like to know why the FAA and the Pentagon’s NORAD presented inaccurate information to the Commission.

For these reasons, and many others, I think we need a brand new investigation.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 10, 2011 1:21 AM
Comment #328974

One more thing:
Why is the National Archives refusing to release the 9/11 Commission records?

Posted by: Adrienne at September 10, 2011 1:56 AM
Comment #328980

more truther BS.

Posted by: dbs at September 10, 2011 9:23 AM
Comment #328981

mike

i linked to that same story about the longshoremen on adams thread. i’m sure hoffas’ remark added no fuel to that fire. LOL!!! funny how we’ve heard no call to tone down the rhetoric from the left.

Posted by: dbs at September 10, 2011 9:27 AM
Comment #328984

jlw, thanks for proving my point…the Democratic Party of the 60’s was not the same as today. Therefore the partisanship of politicians is not the same partisanship of today. Again thanks. By your own numbers, 20 Sentaors from the south and 107 House members from the south were conservative. How many Democrat conservatives are in the House and Senate today, zip??? Again, it proves my point, the makeup of the Congress in the 60’s was not the same as 2011.

Adrienne said:

“Regarding Mike — DFT folks. It’s all flamebait, all the time. And just look at the derailment of this thread which is actually supposed to be about 9/11.

To return to the topic of 9/11, the website Truthout has been putting up interesting articles for awhile now — has anyone else besides me been reading them? Specifically have you heard about the whistleblower codenamed Ironman?”

Adrienne, the point of the post was even after the unifying of the country after 911, we now have partisanship in Congress. JT concluded his post by talking about how Americans worked together in the 40’s and 50’s. And you accuse me of flambaiting because I explain the difference in politics from those days and now.

But that’s not the worse part; you then go on the completely change the subject by introducing your “911 Thruther” views. Ezplain to me what part of JT’s post accused America of killing their own people?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/911-truthers-continue-offer-alternate-claims-sept-11/story?id=14478915

There is always the fringe crackpot group.

Do you believe we actually walked on the moon, or was it just filmed in some hollywood studio?

Posted by: Mike at September 10, 2011 9:39 AM
Comment #328985

dbs, The funny thing is that Adrienne accuses me of flambaiting and then introduces her whacko ideas about a “Truther” conspiracy. I bet Adrienne would be the first to condemn the “birthers”.

Obama was on the same stage as Hoffa and said nothing and he will say nothing about the union thugs in WA. In fact these radicals are doing exactly what HE wants them to do. Obama would like nothing less than to see absolute chaos break out in America. Obama is giving the unions the green light to take out the SOB tea partiers in the election year on 2012. It’s really going to be a mess.

Posted by: Mike at September 10, 2011 9:46 AM
Comment #328987

mike

it will be interesting to see if any charges are ever filed. the article says that:

“In Longview, hundreds of longshore workers stormed damaged railroad cars and dumped grain that is the center of a labor dispute, said Longview Police Chief Jim Duscha.”


felony vandlism,,….and trespassing. both crimes last i checked.

“Six guards were detained for a couple of hours after 500 or more Longshoremen broke down gates about 4:30 a.m. and smashed windows in the guard shack, he said.”


notice how the article descibes these gaurds as being “detained” as opposed to being held lostage which is actually the correct term, being as they were not there of thier own free will, and those holding them were not official law enforcement personel. let’s see if any of our friends on the left will be honest about this incident shall we.

Posted by: dbs at September 10, 2011 10:31 AM
Comment #328991
more truther BS.

Look at my links. The Washington Post. Reuters. That was News, not a bunch of wild-eyed speculation. Is it “Truther BS” when two members of the 9/11 Commission write a book stating unequivocally that they now know they were given inaccurate information and had information withheld from them?

Posted by: Adrienne at September 10, 2011 12:26 PM
Comment #328993

adrienne

so what is your theory? do you believe that bush and cheney planned and had those attacks carried out? oh, do tell.

Posted by: dbs at September 10, 2011 12:46 PM
Comment #328995

I think we need a new investigation — and obviously so do the members of the 9/11 Commission.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 10, 2011 12:57 PM
Comment #328996

adrienne

not gonna tell me huh? ok.

Posted by: dbs at September 10, 2011 1:02 PM
Comment #329010


Dbs, you ask the wrong question. Al Qaeda planned and executed the attacks.

We had prior knowledge that they were planning to attack us and that an airplane or airplanes would be involved.

I have no problem envisioning a scenario where some in government might consider it advantages to have terrorists attack us, especially if they underestimate the scope of the attack, which they would probably have done, considering the extent of the attack. Under such a scenario, you don’t have to plan anything. You just have to be in a position where you can ignore and or throw up roadblocks for intelligence operatives.

I am not saying that Cheney did such a thing, but he was in the position to do so and it is fact that he was instrumental in fabricating evidence against Iraq. And, Cheney is a member of Pax Americana, a group of powerful people who believe that the U.S. should become another Pax Romana and dominate the world, by force if necessary.

This powerful group of neoconservatives have big plans for America, both domestically and internationally. They are infused in our government and they now have a powerful propaganda wing in Fox News and conservative talk radio. They use that propaganda wing to attack all potential threats to their plans, not just Obama’s domestic and foreign agenda, but all Democrats and many Republicans (RINO’s) as well. Now they have created a new ally, the tea party. That’s right, they created the tea party.

There are a hell of a lot of things going on in this government that we the people and even our elected officials don’t know about.

Posted by: jlw at September 10, 2011 3:08 PM
Comment #329013

Adrienne, I’ve actually thought of you each time these articles were published. There are about 10 days’ worth of them and I think you’d find them most interesting.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/09/08/911-unveiled-part-9-of-10-the-pentagon/

Posted by: jane doe at September 10, 2011 3:22 PM
Comment #329015

I believe Adrienne has finally gone off the deep end. This was one of the reasons the idiot Van Jones was booted out of Obama’s cabinet. He is a truther too. By the way Adrienne, how do you feel about the “Birthers”, who think Obama is not a citizen? I believe their facts are about as correct as your’s. I’m sure you have complete support from jane doe for your crazy conspiracy theories.

Posted by: Mike at September 10, 2011 4:12 PM
Comment #329022

jlw


“There are a hell of a lot of things going on in this government that we the people and even our elected officials don’t know about.”

how about that jlw, something we can both agree on. go figure.

Posted by: dbs at September 10, 2011 5:22 PM
Comment #329029

I don’t believe this country is doomed.

What I believe is that right now, Republicans have a conflict of interest with people having basic hopes of returning to prosperity, since any return would have to be somewhat managed by Obama, who they’ve convinced themselves is a dangerous political figure. Dangerous, because he could put the decline of today’s conservative movement into overdrive.

So, they have to kill hope. They have to keep people in despair and cynical, learned helplessness until they get back in power. But even then, they are constrained by their base from really acting aggressively when the times call for it, or when there’s been a major policy error.

There’s a simple way to deal with this: the contempt most people feel for the status quo has to translate into votes to punish the party most interested in maintaining that status quo. The Republicans need to be taught a lesson about trying to ressurrect the past at the expense of the present.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 10, 2011 6:22 PM
Comment #329041

“Dangerous, because he could put the decline of today’s conservative movement into overdrive.”

Sorry Stephen, this is a false premise and therefore your entire conclusion is wrong. But we will see next week, in 2 special elections; Weiner’s seat in NY and another democrat seat in NV. Both are democrat districts and if your premise is correct, the left shouldn’t have any trouble hanging on to either seat. But if conservatives win these seats; then your claims are just BS.

Posted by: Mike at September 10, 2011 11:42 PM
Comment #329058

SD writes; “So, they (Republicans) have to kill hope.”

Silly comment. What they hope to kill is liberalism representing ever more government growth, and the squandering of our future.

This hope and change crap that obama employed last time around is now seen as nothing more than heated rhetoric by an inexperienced failure.

As obama has taken a few more moderate positions, namely on the job killing EPA mandates, he is losing ever more support from his base. He’s stuck with those who brought him to the dance and for him, the music is ending.

obama has become a desperate politician which makes him ever more a danger to our country.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 11, 2011 1:21 PM
Comment #329060


“kill hope”

No, just good old fashioned fear mongering taken to a higher level.

Royal, despite massive fear mongering, race baiting and religion baiting by the Republicans, Obama is still hanging in there in the polls with his potential rivals.

Considering where the conservatives want to take the country, I seriously doubt that Obama is worried that his base won’t turn out.

Posted by: jlw at September 11, 2011 2:24 PM
Comment #329061

The upside is, the American voters have had their taste of “hope and change” liberal socialism and for at least another generation, and liberals are done. At least until they have created another race of mush heads through the liberal universities.

On another subject, I am against the murder of infants through abortion, but it’s not conservatives who are aborting their offspring, its liberals and Democrats. So as time goes on, they will just naturally disappear through natural selection. Since liberals believe in evolution, killing off their own young could be survival of the fittest.

Posted by: Mike at September 11, 2011 2:30 PM
Comment #329064

“Royal, despite massive fear mongering, race baiting and religion baiting by the Republicans, Obama is still hanging in there in the polls with his potential rivals.

Considering where the conservatives want to take the country, I seriously doubt that Obama is worried that his base won’t turn out.’


Posted by: jlw at September 11, 2011 2:24 PM

What is fear mongering, race baiting, and religion baiting? What an idiotic statement; does the left just sit around and try to think of the next BS statement to write on WB? Now if you were refering to liberals, I would have to agree; considering liberals wrote the book.

From what I have seen in the polls (by the way, I thought democtats don’t believe in polls), Obama is loosing against all Republican candidates. However, when we have a candidate, we will see how he is doing. But no matter, when Obama’s approval is in the low 40’s and he can only get a low 40’s vote, he is in trouble.

Who is Obama’s base? If it’s blacks, he failed to give them all the things he promised; if it’s the anti-military crowd, they are mad because he has expaned the wars; if it’s the GW crowd, they are furious at him cutting back on EPA regulations; if it’s the tax more crowd, he signed an extension of the Obama tax cuts. Tell me, just how many of his supporters are excited about the next election?

Posted by: Mike at September 11, 2011 3:29 PM
Comment #329065


Mike, shouldn’t you be supporting abortion?

Ah, the good old 1950’s. Capital was using a new communications media to turn the people into hedonists. Communist hysteria was running amok, The nxxxers were under Jim Crow’s thumb, the qxxers were in the closets, and the kids were playing duck and cover. Throw in a little sputnik and a Gary Powers, stir well and serve it at the hop.

The 50’s were killed by the pill.

Posted by: jlw at September 11, 2011 3:41 PM
Comment #329067

Mike, the NY Times and other major newspapers are full of editorials with quotes from democrat leaders, party chairman’s, union leaders and other influential Dems that are worried…very worried about obama taking down the senate, governorships, and others with him.

Moderates are very discontented with this man/boy president and his silly socialists ideas. Much of his base will stay home rather than hold their noses and vote for this creep.

Moveon.org is pissed at him and other big donors will put their money elsewhere.

This guy is almost history. Good riddance.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 11, 2011 3:43 PM
Comment #329068

jlw doesn’t have a clue what it was like in the 50’s. Too bad.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 11, 2011 3:45 PM
Comment #329069

jlw

“Considering where the conservatives want to take the country, I seriously doubt that Obama is worried that his base won’t turn out.”


yes…but unfortunately they will be the only ones voting for him this time around, and that won’t be enough. b-by barry.

Posted by: dbs at September 11, 2011 3:58 PM
Comment #329072

jlw:

There are a hell of a lot of things going on in this government that we the people and even our elected officials don’t know about.

Couldn’t agree more, and clearly there are lot of people who feel this way. This is the reason why whistleblowers and hacktivists like Wikileaks and Anonymous have been getting as much support as they have been from the American people. We know that we’re often lied to, and that it isn’t right.

When it comes to 9/11 that number of people who think we need a new investigation because they don’t think we’ve been given the truth includes members of the 9/11 Commission, Former members of the CIA, present and former members of Congress (including a current presidential candidate), and lots of other government officals and military personel.

Jane, thanks for the links.

I don’t care about any of the criticism that anyone wants to dish out — here this blog, or anywhere else. That’s because a close friend died that day, leaving behind a wife and children who needed him. Since it is absolutely clear that the 9/11 Commission was lied to, and never given all the facts they needed to make a truly comprehensive and accurate report, a new investigation is without a doubt needed. One day, I hope that we’ll finally get one.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 11, 2011 5:02 PM
Comment #329073

Paul Krugman weighs in on 9/11: The Years of Shame

Posted by: Adrienne at September 11, 2011 6:24 PM
Comment #329075

Krugman never tires of spinning. He is disgusting.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 11, 2011 6:50 PM
Comment #329077

RF, don’t discourage Adrienne and jane doe from their truther comments. I’m having a hoot of a laugh at their conspiracy theories. I just wish jlw, SD, AD, and a few other liberals would join the fun. But they are strangly silent.

By the way dbs and RF, there is a conservative who is running for the Weiner’s waggers seat in the NY 9th district and is 6 points ahead of the socialist. The election is next week and can you believe it; the socialist is going down, but to listen to SD the conservative movement is dead:)

Posted by: Mike at September 11, 2011 9:04 PM
Comment #329083
I just wish jlw, SD, AD, and a few other liberals would join the fun. But they are strangly silent.

I think it’s silly that some people think the US govt had some sort of role in allowing the attacks of 9/11/01. However, I do believe that it is never a good idea to say “case closed” and refuse to investigate anymore. We always need to reexamine and reevaluate our past decisions in light of what we have learned in recent years. This is true for everything in our nation’s history from the decision to colonize the Eastern seaboard in the early 17th century to the present day. The 9/11/01 attacks are no different; I would welcome any attempts to complete our documentation of governmental knowledge and actions before and after those attacks.

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 11, 2011 11:12 PM
Comment #329088

adrienne

a girl i graduated from highschool with was a flight attendant on one of those planes.

http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=renee_may

Posted by: dbs at September 12, 2011 5:32 AM
Comment #329089

renee’ may was my classmate.

Posted by: dbs at September 12, 2011 5:34 AM
Comment #329092

WR, yes, by all means, let’s spend millions more of tax payer dollars on another investigating committee. Retired politicians have 2 choices: either become a lobbyist, or be paid to be a year long member of a investigative committee.

Posted by: Mike at September 12, 2011 8:44 AM
Comment #329096

I apologize for the delay WR.

I don’t believe the Twin Towers attacks were faked. There might be some embarrassing details that the Bush Administration buried, or didn’t wish to come to light, and that of course should be investigated, but I don’t think we’ll find all that different an outcome.

Al-Qaeda was a sophisticated group before 9/11, and I had them pegged within seconds of knowing it was a terrorist attack, because I had heard of no other terrorist group who would execute such parallel attacks with such precision.

I find a lot of the evidence that 9/11 truthers bring forward to be unconvincing at best. A lot of it is dependent on appearances and people’s amateur interpretations of it, especially video and semantic evidence. Argument by personal disbelief is a dangerous place to start, especially when you don’t know yourself where to suspend your own disbelief. Thus people expect precision cuts from thermite, which simply melts and burns vertically through things, or a lack of debris getting blown out of the windows because the demolition isn’t intentional.

Overall, my sense has always been that conspiracies this size never hold together. It’s all too easy for somebody to have an attack of conscience, and none too easy to actually destroy the evidence. The movies don’t help things too much, since it’s far easier for fictional characters to cover up fictional events convincingly, since the author has to actually write in the more realistic ways win which conspiracies fall apart.

I don’t think folks have to be geniuses to exploit dark, fearful circumstances for their own benefit. I think the Bush administration foolishly exploited the circumstances afterwards for their own political benefit. You don’t have to be the person who causes the fear to be the person who exploits it. The Republicans didn’t direct the CIA to conspire to put Mao Tse Tung in power, and they didn’t have to. In general, it’s a lot easier to take bad events and exploit them than to actually engineer their occurrence, and guess what? **** happens. So, there’s rarely any shortage of bull to incite people to react to.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 12, 2011 10:22 AM
Comment #329102

SD

“The Republicans didn’t direct the CIA to conspire to put Mao Tse Tung in power,…”

Stunning, brilliant, astounding!!!

The CIA did not exist when Mao came to power.”

“Wild” Bill Donovan and his traitors in OSS were what turned into the CIA. The OSS did help Mao to power.

Posted by: tom humes at September 12, 2011 11:37 AM
Comment #329104
let’s spend millions more of tax payer dollars on another investigating committee

Millions of dollars is probably quite an exaggeration.

We need to constantly study our history and the lessons it can teach us. Every part of the government is subject to scrutiny in later years. For instance, recent release of government documents have shed a lot more light on the failed Bay of Pigs invasion. We need to learn from mistakes such as the Bay of Pigs in order to not repeat them. Your attitude is to simply ignore the past without learning its lessons.

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 12, 2011 2:07 PM
Comment #329106

I am SHOCKED…SHOCKED I tell you. When I watched obama give his speech Thursday night, and heard him tell America that his jobs plan would be fully paid for. I couldn’t imagine what his plan could possibly be. Ha, Ha.

Who could have imagined that obama would call for increased taxes on the rich. Wow…brilliant. It is just stunning how this man comes up with such original ideas.

“President Obama would fund his $447 billion plan to create jobs largely by raising taxes on wealthier families, White House aides said Monday after the president again called on Congress to support the package.

During a Rose Garden appearance, Obama pledged to send Congress the American Jobs Act on Monday evening when the legislative body resumes its session. Aides revealed for the first time that the plan will include limits on itemized deductions for individuals who earn more than $200,000 a year and families that earn more than $250,000.”

“Obama has proposed similar tax hikes on the wealthy in past year, but they were rejected by Congress.”

“Obama said. “It (his bill) is based on ideas from both Democrats and Republicans. And this is the bill that Congress needs to pass: no games, no politics, no delays. I’m sending this bill to Congress today, and they ought to pass it immediately.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/44/post/obama-calls-on-congress-to-pass-jobs-bill-no-politics-no-delays/2011/09/12/gIQA8uk3MK_blog.html

Our memory challenged leader believes tax increases and reduction of subsidies for our fossil fuel developers is based on ideas from Republicans?

I believe obama is suffering from sun stroke playing too much golf and laying on too many beaches.

Or perhaps, he is raiding the White House wine cellar too frequently.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 12, 2011 2:15 PM
Comment #329107

RF

I have ordained his speech as the SOBS speech.

Same Ole BS

At the time of his speech the bill had not even been written and we get the Pelosi treatment. Let’s pass it then see what is in it. But 18 times he said Pass It Now. This administration is flat out of control and there are some on WB that support being out of control.

Posted by: tom humes at September 12, 2011 2:33 PM
Comment #329109

As I’m sure everyone knows, the powers of the president in the constitution are very limited. It says nothing even close to spurring economic growth. The nanny state mentality of conservatives seems to want Obama to solve all their problems. He does seem to want to cause he’s a nice guy but it really isn’t his job. So Obama complainers if you want more money go out and earn it yourself and quit expecting miracles.

Posted by: Schwamp at September 12, 2011 3:52 PM
Comment #329110

NANNY state mentality of conservatives???????????????????? Don’t you mean LIBERALS!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: KAP at September 12, 2011 4:22 PM
Comment #329111

“As I’m sure everyone knows, the powers of the president in the constitution are very limited. It says nothing even close to spurring economic growth. The nanny state mentality of conservatives seems to want Obama to solve all their problems. He does seem to want to cause he’s a nice guy but it really isn’t his job. So Obama complainers if you want more money go out and earn it yourself and quit expecting miracles.”


Posted by: Schwamp at September 12, 2011 3:52 PM

Schwamp, does this job discription also fit the Bush administration, or was he under a different Constitution. Considering the left has blamed him for everything from ruining the economy to the oval office toilet being clogged.

If it’s not Obama’s job to fix the economy, why has he wasted trillions of tax dollars trying to do it?

Posted by: Mike at September 12, 2011 4:32 PM
Comment #329112

KAP, democrats want to expand the government, with re-distribution of tax dollars, regulations for everything from taxing farmers for their farting cows to how much salt we can have on our food. Republicans want to cut government involvement in our lives, but Schwamp believe’s since Obama can’t get the economy under control, we (Republicans) are wanting a nanny state because we ask Obama to do his job. Once again, blame someone else.

Posted by: Mike at September 12, 2011 4:38 PM
Comment #329113

obama…(Our Bad Ass Money Advocate). barak…(Bizarre American Radical And Kook).

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 12, 2011 4:49 PM
Comment #329118


Since ordainment is popular at this moment, I will make the following nomination:

Fascist Obnoxious Xenophobic News.

WR, governments are people and people are capable of doing some rather unethical things in the name of God, country, government, science, etc. Even the good old government of the U.S. of A. has participated in such acts in the past, to or on their own citizens as well as others.

Personally, I believe that the official reason given for why we couldn’t fit the pieces of evidence together before the attacks, because of inter agency rivalries, agencies unwilling to share information, is the most plausible reason, but evidence has been produced which suggests that someone or someones interfered to prevent the dots from being connected. It is my position that the possibility deserves further investigation.

Mike, the 911 truther film is a totally different scenario. I believe that one proposes that the government planned and executed the attacks, placing explosives in the towers to bring them down. IMO, that theory is as credible as your theory, socialist, socialist, socialist.

Mike, did Vince commit suicide or did Hillary have him bumped off? That possibility warranted not one but two Congressional investigations. Or how about the Stain on the Dress Congressional investigation? How much did that one cost?

According to Republicans, two investigations into the death of Vince Foster were justified, but a thorough investigation of the 911 attacks which killed thousands is unjustified, unnecessary and to costly.

Posted by: jlw at September 12, 2011 5:48 PM
Comment #329122

Amount of money allocated for the 1986 Space Shuttle Challenger disaster investigation: $75 million
What they found: Problems with the shuttle.

Amount allocated for 1994-1998 Whitewater Investigation/Monica Lewinski-Bill Clinton Scandal Investigation: Open-ended, Unlimited.
Amount spent: 47 Million
What they found: Bill Clinton cheated on his wife, ruined Lewinski’s blue Gap dress.

Amount of money allocated for the 2004 Space Shuttle Columbia disaster investigation: $50 million
What they found: Problems with the shuttle.

Amount allocated for 9/11 Commission: 3 Million
Later Congressional allocation: 11 Million
Amount spent: 14 Million

What they found: Everybody who was supposed to protect the country from terrorist attacks failed to do their jobs. The FAA and the Pentagon’s NORAD provided inaccurate information to the Commission. CIA information was withheld from the Commission. Members of the Commission now believe they were set up to fail, and realize they never had access to the facts they needed in order to be able to give a true and accurate account.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 12, 2011 6:27 PM
Comment #329124


Mike, how many Americans have been busted for putting to much salt on their food?

“Republicans want to cut government involvement in our lives”

And, that is why Republican controlled states are passing laws banning gay marriage. Just one example of the many way’s in which Republicans/conservatives do believe in using government to interfere in our personal lives.

Oh, look here, you forgot to dot one of the i’s and that makes you ineligible to vote. This guy’s chad is hanging so his vote doesn’t count. My Congressional representative has her seat because of two undotted i’s and three hanging chads that were discovered by Ken Blackwell.

If we examined the laws, past and present, passed by conservatives, how many laws interfering in the lives of people would we discover?

For every pot there is a kettle.

Posted by: jlw at September 12, 2011 6:38 PM
Comment #329125

jlw……. AMEN !!

Posted by: jane doe at September 12, 2011 6:45 PM
Comment #329126

jlw:

And, that is why Republican controlled states are passing laws banning gay marriage. Just one example of the many way’s in which Republicans/conservatives do believe in using government to interfere in our personal lives.

Not to mention how the GOP has been all for doing away with all our Fourth Amendment rights, and Habeas Corpus — because “they hate us for our freedoms!”

Posted by: Adrienne at September 12, 2011 7:05 PM
Comment #329129

It appears that the mantra for the left is the things they perceive as hate fight it with hate.

Posted by: tom humes at September 12, 2011 8:59 PM
Comment #329131

That’s because hate is so well-known to you and your compadres, th.

Posted by: jane doe at September 12, 2011 9:56 PM
Comment #329134

Tomorrow’s the big day; we’re going to see if SD is right about the TP conservative movement being dead. Weiner’s seat in NY and NV:

“In Reno’s Washoe County, the most populous county in the 2nd District, Republicans account for 52 percent of the voters who have cast ballots early, compared with just 37 percent who have been Democrats. In Carson City, the state’s capital, the disparity is even greater: Republicans are out-voting Democrats 58 percent to 30 percent. In both places, the rate of Republican voting is out-performing party registration rates.”

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0811/62349.html#ixzz1XnR7iqPG

This proves my earlier point that Democrats are so upset with Obama, they are failing to show interest in voting. The question is; does tomorrows special elections show us a trend???

Posted by: Mike at September 12, 2011 10:39 PM
Comment #329141

So what are you saying Adrienne? That American Muslims were involved in the 9/11 attack? And just what do you think will be done about it? Let me tell you, nothing… The left has boxed America into a PC box. Obama and company won’t use the term terrorist or Muslim in the same sentence. To investigate Saudis in FL would invole some sort of profiling and profiling is out. You worry about who was involved in the 9/11 attack, but you have no problem with Obama, big sis, and Holder allowing the southern borders to be wide open to terrorist walking right into the country.

And to top it all off, as a “truther”, you don’t believe Muslims were involved at all; you believe it was Bush and his administration who caused the attack. Your comments and theories make you look like some kind of loon.

Posted by: Mike at September 13, 2011 9:05 AM
Comment #329147
And to top it all off, as a “truther”, you don’t believe Muslims were involved at all; you believe it was Bush and his administration who caused the attack.

Go ahead Flamebaiting Troll, and point out where I said any of this.

Your comments and theories make you look like some kind of loon.

And each and every one your comments (or lies) make you look like a Nazi-Fascist sociopath and trogodytic knuckledragger, spewing as many bellicose, hate-filled, intolerant, vengeful comments as possible since the limbic lizard-brain prevents all chance for rational thought or polite discourse.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 13, 2011 11:14 AM
Comment #329155

jane doe and Adrienne have a common problem of discerning the the truth. All we hear from both of them is an imagination running away with itself. Imagination is ok, but when one tries to make imagination into a truth, then error takes over. Opinion should be based on substance and fact.

Waiting for the next flame.

Maranatha

Posted by: tom humes at September 13, 2011 12:44 PM
Comment #329156
Opinion should be based on substance and fact.
I provided both substance and fact here with my links, but flamebaiting rightwing trolls are interested in either. Posted by: Adrienne at September 13, 2011 12:50 PM
Comment #329157

That should read: flamebaiting rightwing trolls AREN’T interested in either.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 13, 2011 12:51 PM
Comment #329163

Adrienne, I know that you miss the days in here when the discussions were heated, but not hate-filled. I still see an occasional comment from one of the good ol’ contributors, so maybe if these troglodytic trolls find some other place to destroy, things can go back to a more civil and intelligence-based forum. Craig isn’t as tough as DRR was, so the quality has definitely suffered. Even poor ol’ Stephen has had to back away and I hate that he has allowed them to just pound him and he has just barely shown signs of losing his cool. Guess his infrequency in posting might show he is re-grouping and preparing for new onslaughts.
I’ve never been able to figure out just how one can feel victorious when after having driven away those who disagree, you are back again to the beginning…still alone, but with a longer list of enemies. Actually quite pathetic…….

Posted by: jane doe at September 13, 2011 2:19 PM
Comment #329170

Jane, it is completely pathetic.

I mean, all the links I’ve laid out here ARE PROOF that The FAA and the Pentagon gave the 9/11 Commission inaccurate information, and that the CIA and the FBI withheld vitally important information! Members of the 9/11 Commission have already come out and admitted that their investigation failed! You’ve got current and former members of Congress saying a new investigation is absolutely necessary, along with members of the military, and people who worked for the CIA, and former government officials in complete agreement!

But like I said, these vicious rightwing trolls obviously aren’t the least bit interested in any of these facts — all they want to do is attack anything and anyone who stands on the political left. In fact, although these folks may be too totally clueless to even realize this, since they clearly don’t give a rats ass about knowing or discussing what actually took place on 9/11, their actions go well beyond merely pathetic. They’re actually revealing themselves as dangerously idiotic, and yes, even treasonous.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 13, 2011 3:51 PM
Comment #329176

Sounds like trolling to me.

Posted by: tom humes at September 13, 2011 5:08 PM
Comment #329186

Sounds like the truth hurts.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 13, 2011 5:40 PM
Comment #329189

Adrienne said:

“you look like a Nazi-Fascist sociopath and trogodytic knuckledragger, spewing as many bellicose, hate-filled, intolerant, vengeful comments as possible since the limbic lizard-brain prevents all chance for rational thought or polite discourse.”

Just before jane doe said:

“Adrienne, I know that you miss the days in here when the discussions were heated, but not hate-filled. I still see an occasional comment from one of the good ol’ contributors, so maybe if these troglodytic trolls find some other place to destroy, things can go back to a more civil and intelligence-based forum.”

Oh, I’m sure both of your comments are intelligence based. Is there anyon else on WB besides me who finds their intelligent based forum hilarious.

What’s the chances of catching both women on that one week of the month, at the same time?

Tell you what Adrienne and jane doe, why don’t we just waterboard members of the FFA, CIA, and the FBI; then if we still don’t have the truth, we can waterboard Bush and all of his cabinet; then if we still don’t get the truth we vcan move on to Obama and his gang. I’m sure Obama has a secret little book full of the secrets that Bush left him. Can we say whacko…

Speaking of DRR; his Discuss America is going down the tubes. It’s kind of hard to have a blog discussion when DRR is the only one writing:)

Posted by: Mike at September 13, 2011 5:58 PM
Comment #329194

Bite it troll.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 13, 2011 6:25 PM
Comment #329199

tom humes-
China fell to the Communists on October 1,1949. The CIA was founded in 1947 under the National Security act. Do the history, do the math.

Mike-
When Bush left office, the economy had already lost four million jobs, and that quarter’s losses were at an annualized rate of 8.9%.

You’re blaming Obama for an economic downturn that was raging at a rate of several hundred thousand jobs lost a month by the time he got in there. Maybe you think that magically, responsibility for all the policies just devolves to the next President, but I happen to think that with as big a ****-up as letting Lehman Brothers collapse and riddle the economy with shrapnel, credit for that enormous screw-up must go where it is due.

Does that make you uncomfortable? Are you still peddling the idea that the low market-share, lower risk mortgages of Fannie and Freddie were responsible, when dozens of mortgage lenders failed before them, and the downturn in that market was already begun in 2005 and 2006?

Do you still overlook the absolutely huge role of the derivatives market, which your people advocated and passed a law to keep unregulated, a black box market nobody knew was that screwed-up until too late?

Bush and the Republican Congress passed the laws that allowed this BS to happen. You try and scapegoat Democrats by claiming that it was all because we were giving more low income people housing, but I’m pretty sure that people weren’t pushing for those folks to get NINJA loans on 500,000 dollar McMansions. Your people mention interference in regulation, but too bad that it all comes too late to really fit in the actual timeline of the market’s decline.

Yep. It’s pretty clear. Republican policies failed catastrophically, and we can point to multiple bills and describe their actual effects. Democrats are not clear of all these screw-ups, to be sure, but any finger pointed at them points four back at your folks, because you spent a great deal of time pushing these policies, writing these bills, and supporting them wholeheartedly as necessary for the strength of the economy.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 13, 2011 6:51 PM
Comment #329201
Oh, I’m sure both of your comments are intelligence based. Is there anyon else on WB besides me who finds their intelligent based forum hilarious.

Your comment goes a long way to verify your level of intelligence, Mike….or anyone else who finds correctly spelled and appropriately phrased comments to be humorous.
You constantly and consistently point out to all but your tight little circles of Trolls, Inc. that our comments, data, verifications of information, and etc. are not acceptable to you, or that it’s not worthy of consideration. You’ve also been reminded numerous times by many people, that your hate and vitriolic attitude is NOT WELCOME on here. Too bad that you just don’t get it…..

Posted by: jane doe at September 13, 2011 7:05 PM
Comment #329204

Yep Stephen and Obama has continued the downhill trend with his failed policies.

Posted by: KAP at September 13, 2011 7:08 PM
Comment #329205

jane doe

You are so far out of line it is rotten. More hate comes from you than anybody on WB. Fess up. When people here have no argument but are just ticked off, two words always show up; hate and troll. Why don’t you rebut the things written and quit this ranting and raving like a lunatic.

Posted by: tom humes at September 13, 2011 7:13 PM
Comment #329206

Jane Doe, Adrienne-
Back off from calling these folks trolls. I expect the same out of them.

On the subject of backing off? Oh, no. I’m no less committed to confronting the right on this website. What I’m not doing is carpet bombing them the way I used to. I’ve come to think that it’s a waste of time to repeat the same points again and again for the benefit of those who should get it right the first time. I’ve got other things I want to do with my life, in addition to discussing politics, so I’ve scaled back the number of my posts.

Personally, it makes me feel less beaten down. If you read one insult after another and feel compelled to respond to them on every one, what happens? Well, you start to feel real bad about yourself. Nothing sinks self esteem like keeping yourself in that kind of pointless argument, defending yourself against a person who will not admit your character is better than they claim. You might as well try to convince an oak tree or a brick wall to grow soft before you run into them. They want to bloody your nose, test your patience. They want you to feel like your nerves are frayed, because if that keeps up long enough, they win, because of the pessimism they encourage.

We got to look at things with more than just our political eyes. To do that, we have to be able to step back from the pie fight.

Adrienne-
I came here in 2004 in part to escape from web environments where political arguments just degenerated into flamewars. Part of the reason is this thought: if all we seek to do is defeat the other person, and the means we use are the kinds of insults nobody will willingly concede to, how does the argument develop?

It doesn’t. It goes absolutely nowhere. Folks don’t go looking for information, they don’t find out about new ideas, even if only to be familiar with them.

I personally avoid most conspiracy theories for similar reasons: they usually are supported mostly by what people want to believe, and are emotionally invested in believing, rather than rising organically from the evidence, and surviving being put to the test of that evidence.

We can’t prove negatives. What we can prove, in my mind, is that under Bush we were not prepared to deal with a threat like this. That, for me, is enough to ask for reform. If they did do something more, something worse, then I would say, let the evidence be the birth mother of that allegation. Nobody can truly hide all the relevant facts. Nobody is that onmiscient or omnipotent. Attention and memory are funds of currency with limited supply, so there’s always something they fail to conceal.

The truth will be revealed, whatever it is, but it will only truly be revealed by solid evidence and well-tested theory, not the mere suspicions and incomplete arguments that the human imagination makes so plentiful, and so undependable.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 13, 2011 7:14 PM
Comment #329207

SD

Mao had control of China way before 1949. Read the history and then do the math.

Posted by: tom humes at September 13, 2011 7:16 PM
Comment #329208

Adrienne, this was just put out a few minutes ago….

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/09/13/active-military-look-for-911-truth-at-veterans-for-peace-rally-in-daytona-beach/

Posted by: jane doe at September 13, 2011 7:24 PM
Comment #329211

Stephen,

I personally avoid most conspiracy theories for similar reasons: they usually are supported mostly by what people want to believe, and are emotionally invested in believing, rather than rising organically from the evidence, and surviving being put to the test of that evidence.

Stephen, not you too?! For pity’s sake man, look at the links I put up in this thread! As I’ve said, that’s all NEWS. It is not CONSPIRACY. There are now lot of people in our government who fully realize we have never been given the truth about all the events leading up to, during, and after 9/11 and think we need a new investigation.

Because We The People deserve the truth.

Most especially since we’ve waged two of the longest wars this nation has ever fought due to that terrorist attack, and because our government has been systematically striping the American people of our constitutional rights ever since that horrible day.
I might add that the facts and the truth of what happened being kept from people whose family members and friends died on that day is something that really hurts.

Jane,
Thanks for the link. I’m not at all surprised that members of the military would want the truth. These people have suffered horribly and sacrificed much fighting wars that came as event of 9/11.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 13, 2011 7:56 PM
Comment #329216
As I’ve said, that’s all NEWS. It is not CONSPIRACY.

The insinuation that 9/11 was committed by anyone other than Al Qaeda or that the Bush administration purposely chose not to respond to the threat from Al Qaeda is most definitely a conspiracy. “Truthers” envision scenarios so convoluted that they have destroyed all their credibility with the mainstream public. I will always support more transparency in government, and this includes regular inquiries into our government’s actions in the past, including our actions preceding and during 9/11. However, I will never entertain any of these convoluted conspiracy hypotheses absent hard evidence (evidence that the “Truther” movement is desperately lacking)

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 13, 2011 9:42 PM
Comment #329221


Let the spin begin:

TPM Election Scoreboard

HOUSE — NY-09

Votes


Turner (R)

53%
21,857

Weprin (D)

47%
19,071

58% reporting


HOUSE — NV-02

Votes

Amodei (R)

58%
51,543


Marshall (D)

37%
32,749

21% reporting


Posted by: Mike at September 13, 2011 11:57 PM
Comment #329222

Well Warped, we’ll never get a clearer picture of anything without a far more truthful and comprehensive investigation will we???

As for what Bush and Cheney did or didn’t know, or what they did or didn’t do, the plain fact is, we really don’t know. Since they insisted on a secret meeting, and refused to testify under oath, and wouldn’t even allow notes from the meeting with the 9/11 Commissioners to be released, it’s really a big question mark.
Although we do know what Condi said about their getting a bunch of memos about possible terrorist attacks. Including the famous one entitled: “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US”.

Now, just because I say all that doesn’t mean I automatically think that they did know. I don’t jump to conclusions, nor do I enjoy conspiracies made up out of thin air like that — because I happen to be a person who prefers to think logically and rationally. However, it does mean that it would be stupid of me not to acknowledge that they were extremely secretive following the massive, and very well-planned out terrorist attack that happened on their watch.
And what the adminstration knew and what they did is something that the American public had, and still has, every right to know about — even these ten years later.

One last thing: Is it at all possible that people in charge of our government would actually choose to lie to us? Even if it meant that a lot of Americans could die?
Well yes indeed, tragically we know damn well this is definitely possible.

After all, The Gulf of Tonkin was nothing but a giant lie — and over 58 Thousand Americans gave their lives as result in Vietnam. Many others were maimed for life as a result — in fact, my own cousin was drafted and had most of his arm blown off because of that lie that our government chose to tell.

We also know that there were never any WMD’s in Iraq, that the Bush administration eagerly used highly questionable intelligence to make their case for war in Iraq — all while telling the public that Saddam had something to do with Bin Laden and 9/11, when he didn’t.

So let’s just say, I think the Bush Adminstration has a whole hell of lot of explaining to do regarding their actions. Yet, for some bizarre reason it has become highly controversial to expect to ever get any answers about 9/11 out of leaders who we already know took America into a war under very weak and shoddy premises.

It’s almost like the American people are somehow afraid to really know everything.
Personally, I don’t understand that at all. In fact, I’m far more afraid that we’ll we never find out what the facts of 9/11 are — and that therefore America will never learn the lessons we should.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 14, 2011 12:18 AM
Comment #329290
Well Warped, we’ll never get a clearer picture of anything without a far more truthful and comprehensive investigation will we???

True enough. We’d be much better off squashing the conspiracy theories with the truth than dealing with the disunity that such theories create.

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 14, 2011 11:47 PM
Comment #330869

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Posted by: dftg at October 22, 2011 3:54 AM
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