Democrats & Liberals Archives

August BLS Numbers Show Results of Debt Ceiling Battle

It’s my favorite time of the month again. It’s BLS Employment Situation Summary day. Unfortunately more local government job losses and a little private sector growth produced a net increase of 0 jobs this month. Hey, at least it’s not negative, right?

The reference week for July was a week measured before the worst of the debt ceiling battle played out. Those numbers weren't too bad. Just a little on the weak side. That was not the case for the August numbers. We had the lowest private sector job growth in 18 months at just 17,000 jobs. We lost 17,000 in the government sector. The majority of government jobs lost were lost in education. But who needs socialist union teachers, right?

If I had to find one ray of hope in this report it would be that long term unemployed persons decreased for the 3rd month straight and the number of discouraged workers declined this month as well. It was easy to predict high unemployment after a deep recession but I think it's been the long term unemployment that has really made this a tough economy. To see that declining is a good thing.

Economists are still suggesting job growth will pick up in the last quarter of the year but for now we're stuck with stall numbers and weekly measurements of the economy that make our markets bounce up and down.

Posted by Adam Ducker at September 2, 2011 8:40 AM
Comments
Comment #328499

“Hey, at least it’s not negative, right?”

Yes, greaT isn’t it? The WH is predicting the unemploymet to stay at 9% thoughout next year. Nothing like good predictions…

Posted by: Mike at September 2, 2011 1:58 PM
Comment #328500

The Bush tax cuts have been in effect for nine years. Where are the jobs?

Posted by: phx8 at September 2, 2011 2:12 PM
Comment #328502

Adam, I enjoyed reading your post but found this, unnecessary…

“The majority of government jobs lost were lost in education. But who needs socialist union teachers, right?”

I don’t recall anyone on WB calling teacher unions socialists. School districts, like any other publicly financed entity, have budgets. I know that many cities have reduced or furloughed some workers for budgetary reasons. Yet, the schools remain open, fire and police continue to protect our communities, and other necessary public work functions are met.

These are hard times for nearly everyone Adam, not just public employees.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 2, 2011 3:04 PM
Comment #328503


Three decades of supply side economics, one trade agreement after another, and deregulation of the markets. Where are the jobs?

It’s funny, but I can’t recall anyone calling just about everyone on the left socialists.

Things will be much better beginning next month. Obama has relegalized smog.

Posted by: jlw at September 2, 2011 3:19 PM
Comment #328504

Mike: “The WH is predicting the unemploymet to stay at 9% thoughout next year.”

Yes. It’s a shame that the plans Obama has promoted so far to grow more jobs have been met with scorn by the GOP Congress and folks like yourself. I can’t wait to hear all the things Obama proposes next week that you’ll all rush to deride.

Royal Flush: “I don’t recall anyone on WB calling teacher unions socialists.”

I wasn’t directing the comment at any one person in particular but rather the general anti-union, anti-government sentiment and the abuse of the term “socialist” of the modern GOP movement.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at September 2, 2011 3:52 PM
Comment #328505

OK Adam, but then…why the comment?

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 2, 2011 3:57 PM
Comment #328506

OK Adam, but then…why the comment?

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 2, 2011 3:58 PM
Comment #328507

Sorry for the duplicate. I continue to have problems posting even after I cleared the cache. I don’t know what the problem is.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 2, 2011 4:05 PM
Comment #328508


RF
You seem to be just a tad bit sensitive to think that your own wife could be part of a socialistic environment, since you’ve referred to her teaching status numerous times. Or does she steadfastly reject membership status for that very reason?

Posted by: jane doe at September 2, 2011 4:07 PM
Comment #328510

“OK Adam, but then…why the comment?”

It was purely for bait. Trying to stoke the fires of conservatives

Posted by: tdobson at September 2, 2011 4:10 PM
Comment #328511

phx8

Obama had a chance to stop the Bush tax cuts. He didn’t. Therefore what is called the Bush tax cuts should now be called the Obama tax cuts.

Posted by: tom humes at September 2, 2011 4:12 PM
Comment #328513

Phx8 and JLW:

It funny, but at some point I keep expecting people on the left to give up on the ‘its your fault’ mentality and actually take some responsibility…

Three plus years after Obama took the presidency and both houses of congress with super majorities, and the left still wants to blame the stalled economy of his predecessors.

Let me ask you a question: What would it take for the success and/or failure to reside in the current administration? Control of both the legislative and executive branches? Done, for two years…but apparently that is not enough. I know, I know, super majorities in the congress! Done. But still not enough. I know I’ve got it now, the passage (however necessary) of all his critical and high profile agenda items like healthcare, stimulus, etc. Done, now its got to be this administration economy…Right???

I know that Bush spent more money than he should have. I know that he—and others abandoned the conservative ideals they espoused before they got to Washington. Their reckless spending is no better than Obama’s. But with that being said, now lets fix it, a stop wasting tax dollars by thinking it is fiscally responsible to spend $230,000.00 per job created. Lets get the government out of the job business and return it to the private sector…you know…the ones that have created jobs that actually turn a profit for the economy.

Adam:

Quite a one-sided picture you paint. The economy was doing just fine, then they stirred up the hornets nest that was the debt ceiling, and it collapsed on itself. I’m not even trying to justify the debt ceiling debate, but don’t try an portray this economics news as being the result of one issue.

These numbers are horrible. And there is no doubt that the debt ceiling debacle effected them so some end. But more than the debt ceiling ever could, the policies and practices of this administration have mitigated recovery to the point where this is even possible. Every recession in history showed strong evidence of recovery by now. But this time, with Democratic super majorities in the congress to ‘address’ the collapse, the recovery never materialized and three years later we are still dealing with an economy more fragile than a house of cards.

Posted by: adam at September 2, 2011 4:17 PM
Comment #328514

Tomhumes,
Obama and the Democrats opposed extending the Bush tax cuts. GOP Senate leader McConnell stated the Bush tax cuts were the most important single thing of all to the Republicans. In fact, the Republicans threatened to kill unemployment benefits for many if the tax cuts were not extended, so… the Obama administration made a trade with the economic terrorists, also known as conservative Republicans: extending unemployment benefits (and other legislation) in exchange for another two years of the Bush tax cuts. I think most people would agree that was a mistake. To that extent, giving in to economic terrorism, the Obama administration deserves blame.

It has been nine years since the Bush tax cuts were passed.

Where are the jobs?

It’s a simple question, Tom humes. Your answer?

Posted by: phx8 at September 2, 2011 4:19 PM
Comment #328515

It doesn’t change the fact that Obama signed an extension of the Obama tax cuts, and Bill Clinton signed NAFTA. So, like Obama’s much talk about bringing the troops home, once he got in office things changed. Evidently, the liberals in DC know more about the subject than the liberals on WB. It,s a crying shame WB liberals are not included in the daily presidential briefings.

Posted by: Mike at September 2, 2011 4:34 PM
Comment #328516

jane, you are correct, my wife is a retired Texas teacher. We don’t have a teachers union in my state. I fail to see the connection between socialism and teachers unions. Education is a public service, hardly socialism.

Adam, you are correct, this is the worst recovery since the Great Depression.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 2, 2011 4:37 PM
Comment #328517

Adam,
Clinton pushed NAFTA, and at the time I supported free trade, and I thought it was the right thing to do. That concept of ‘free trade’ matched everything I learned in my MBA courses and financial career. However, in retrospect I recognize it was wrong. Dead wrong. Clinton was wrong to push it, just as Clinton was wrong to sign the repeal of Glass-Steagall.

Obama was wrong to make the trade, exchanging unemployment benefits for extending the Bush tax cuts. True, Republicans held a metaphorical gun to his head by threatening the most vulnerable among us, the unemployed, in the midst of an economic downturn. The Republicans threatened the unemployed with total economic disaster unless the GOP got their way. The GOP insisted we give help to the richest among us, precisely those least in need of help, by threatening the most vulnerable.

I think it was supposed to create jobs.

Giving in to economic terrorism is wrong. Giving in to hostage taking is wrong. At some point, the GOP will go through with its terrible threats to Americans and the economy.

So, back to the a simple question. It’s been nine years since the Bush tax cuts. Where are the jobs?

Posted by: phx8 at September 2, 2011 6:11 PM
Comment #328518

Royal Flush: “OK Adam, but then…why the comment?”

I’m not clear what you mean or why you object to my statement.

Adam: “The economy was doing just fine, then they stirred up the hornets nest that was the debt ceiling, and it collapsed on itself.”

That is not what I’m saying at all. In fact I’m not arguing the economy collapsed. We were at stall speed during the debate is all. We saw better growth in July and we should see better growth in September as evidence that the debate added to the uncertainty in Europe and the overall economy bringing down the August numbers.

“Every recession in history showed strong evidence of recovery by now.”

This recession was not at all like the others. In fact a key source of drag on the economy is existing homes. In the past we’ve seen home building (housing starts) lift the economy not long after the recession ended. Because housing played such a key roll in this recession and housing is still in the dumps we’re not getting that boost. Deep unemployment and a massive drop in the price of homes has kept housing that way.

This was a very deep and very long recession. Democratic policies went the opposite of what you suggest. Democrat policies kept it from going deeper and longer.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at September 2, 2011 6:18 PM
Comment #328519

Re this socialist thing - using this kind of trick is typical. It is the equivalent of the guy walking into the bar and shouting to bystanders “You lookin’ at me.”

Socialism is a specific old-fashioned and failed ideology. Nobody really believes in socialism anymore, even in places like Cuba, Venezuela or North Korea where they still claim to have it. Arab states that claimed to support “Arab socialism”, like the Libyans or Syrians have or are falling. Nobody in his/her right mind believes in socialism anymore.

American liberals are not socialist. Government running schools, police departments etc, was NEVER part of socialism, which requires common or government control over productive enterprise. These things are not productive. They are costs.

All the above work for the taxpayers - i.e. the people. The people have a right to expect good work and good value from their employers. They often get it. Most government workers earn the money they get. The problem for government is disciplining employees who do not work out well. Beyond that, the system is often set up in such ways good workers cannot do good work.

There is no profit in government. Workers cannot be exploited for profit for the “owners” since the people are the owners.

It makes sense for the taxpayers to pay workers enough and treat them well so that good and necessary work is done well. If unions push wages or benefits above this amount, it creates a problem for the people. That is why more local governments are trying to cut expenses. It is unpleasant for all involved.

When firms suffer losses, they have to cut costs. The same goes for government.

Posted by: C&J at September 2, 2011 6:44 PM
Comment #328520

Adam,
Good thumbnail analysis of the economy. I don’t really see much downside, simply because we’re already there, and most likely, it will be a long time before there is a robust recovery. I think the housing market is only now bottoming. It’s been a long way down, and it will be a long way back up. So the good news is that the bad news is already out. This next go around, private debt will not be available to the extent it used to be, but perhaps that’s for the better. Perhaps we can generate a recovery more along European economic lines, slow and steady and solid.

Posted by: phx8 at September 2, 2011 6:45 PM
Comment #328525

“This was a very deep and very long recession. Democratic policies went the opposite of what you suggest. Democrat policies kept it from going deeper and longer.”

Posted by: Adam Ducker at September 2, 2011 6:18 PM

This is an interesting statement, considering most economists believe we have already entered into a double dip recession.

If Obama and the democrats had stayed out of the recovery business, we would now be well on our way to a recovery. This was a crisis that must be exploited by the left.

Adam continues to say:

“This recession was not at all like the others. In fact a key source of drag on the economy is existing homes. In the past we’ve seen home building (housing starts) lift the economy not long after the recession ended. Because housing played such a key roll in this recession and housing is still in the dumps we’re not getting that boost. Deep unemployment and a massive drop in the price of homes has kept housing that way.”

And now the Feds are suing the banks, which is nothing more than an Obama shakedown of the banking system. It will never reach a courtroom; it is simply meant to extract out of court settlements from the banks. If it were to reach the courtrooms, the truth would be revealed. The government required banks to make loans to minorities who did not have any ability to pay for the loans. When the banks refused, in comes the justice department threatening to tie the banks up in investigations for years; so the banks made the loans and Freddie and Fannie were more than willing to buy up the bad loans, since the CEO’s of Freddie and Fannie had pay and bonuses based upon the number of loans they acquired. To add icing to the cake, we had Dodd and Frank pursuing their own agenda. You are right Adam; the housing market was the straw that broke America’s financial back.

And to who those that demand that 10 months of republican control of the House produce jobs I say, the democrats controlled both Houses for the last 2 years of the Bush presidency and the first 2 years of Obama’s, yet everything continued to spiral downhill. Of course, I know you don’t want to hear this.

I find it interesting that Obama would shut down the plans of the EPA to push regulations which would cause the failure of 8% of out electricity production, and his reason…because these regulations would stifle economic growth. But he has no problem with the EPA regulations that shut down fossil fuel production, regulations that prevent corporations from bringing overseas profits back to America, NLRB regulation that cater to the unions and causing further loss of jobs, or the Justice Department going after companies like Gibson Guitar simply because they support republicans.

Posted by: Mike at September 2, 2011 10:16 PM
Comment #328541
Government running schools, police departments etc, was NEVER part of socialism, which requires common or government control over productive enterprise. These things are not productive. They are costs.

This is massively incorrect, government run PD, FD and education is the very definition of socialism (government ownership of an industry). It doesn’t have to be productive, however, those three examples are actually quite productive. Those three examples return far more money to the economy than what the government invests in them.

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 3, 2011 10:16 AM
Comment #328542

Mike: “This is an interesting statement, considering most economists believe we have already entered into a double dip recession.”

Most? I don’t think there’s evidence for that. Some do of course. We may very well be. CBO, the Fed, and other groups are still not predicting a second recession any time soon however. They’re just predicting slow growth as far as the eye can see. We’ll be teetering on the edge of a second dip for a while and could go either way.

“And to who those that demand that 10 months of republican control of the House produce jobs I say, the democrats controlled both Houses for the last 2 years of the Bush presidency and the first 2 years of Obama’s, yet everything continued to spiral downhill.”

Continued? I’m not sure what you’re talking about. We left a recession and entered a recovery. There’s a lot of drag on the economy is all but we certainly didn’t start to recover only because Republicans won last November.

“The government required banks to make loans to minorities who did not have any ability to pay for the loans.”

Actually studies show minority lending was better than average sub prime lending. You could legitimately argue this opened the door to more bad lending but let’s not pretend it was lending to minorities that broke the economy.

“But he has no problem with…”

Well, obviously he has to pick his battles. It’s always a balancing act between what is right for our people and what will be too harmful to our economy when it’s weak. The Republicans can’t seem to grasp this. Their obsession with austerity at a time when the economy has stalled simply blows my mind. Obama is willing to admit that liberal policy sometimes costs economic growth. Why can’t Republican leadership admit that conservative fiscal policy sometimes costs economic growth as well? Of course both sides want their policies. But we elect people to make smart decisions and see through the ideology.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at September 3, 2011 10:16 AM
Comment #328543

warped

“government run PD, FD and education is the very definition of socialism”


hardly…… to draw that conclusion you would have to consider any level of gov’t control or service at all to be socialist. royal flush had it right. police, fire, and education are not industries. we can agree that a well educated population, and police service providing law and order are a net positive to society as a whole, but there is really no way to translate that into dollars and cents.

Posted by: dbs at September 3, 2011 10:32 AM
Comment #328545

dbs, yes I saw the links. The CEO of Gibson asked the Feds why they weren’t going after Martin Guitar, considering the fact that Martin gets their raw materials from the same place. It turns out Gibson is a supporter of Republicans and Martin is a supporter of Democrats: you do the math.

AD said:

“Most? I don’t think there’s evidence for that. Some do of course. We may very well be. CBO, the Fed, and other groups are still not predicting a second recession any time soon however. They’re just predicting slow growth as far as the eye can see. We’ll be teetering on the edge of a second dip for a while and could go either way.”

This is silly; Obama and company were predicting A Great Depression, Double-Dip Recession, and finacial collaps of the world, just 2 months ago(if the debt ceiling were not raised).

“Continued? I’m not sure what you’re talking about. We left a recession and entered a recovery. There’s a lot of drag on the economy is all but we certainly didn’t start to recover only because Republicans won last November.”

Recovery? I’m not sure what planet you come from, but we have seen no sign of a recovery since Obama got all the spending he wanted and promised un employment would not get above 8%. There has never been a recovery, unless it was in the dreams of liberals.

“Actually studies show minority lending was better than average sub prime lending. You could legitimately argue this opened the door to more bad lending but let’s not pretend it was lending to minorities that broke the economy.”

You are blowing smoke by skirting this issue. The Fair Housing Act Ammendments of 1988 gave authority to the Justice Department to go after banks who they believe violated the Act:

“In Mortgage Lending: No one may take any of the following actions based on race, color, national origin, religion, sex, familial status or handicap (disability):
•Refuse to make a mortgage loan
•Refuse to provide information regarding loans
•Impose different terms or conditions on a loan, such as different interest rates, points, or fees
•Discriminate in appraising property
•Refuse to purchase a loan or
•Set different terms or conditions for purchasing a loan.”

http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/FHLaws/yourrights

So the goverment caused the problem, Frank and Dodd used their positions and power to protect the problem, Fannie and Freddie Execs profited from the problem, the economy collapsed because of the problem, and now the justice dept is trying to profit from the problem.

And all of this is a result of a government leaning socialist. Socialism is when politicians get their greedy hands around the throats of citizens and private interprise to accomplish their own goals.

Posted by: Mike at September 3, 2011 11:13 AM
Comment #328547
to draw that conclusion you would have to consider any level of gov’t control or service at all to be socialist.

Exactly right. Any government run industry can be considered socialized. Socialism exists in any country where the political government own and runs any industry.

royal flush had it right. police, fire, and education are not industries.

What evidence is there for this assertion?

we can agree that a well educated population, and police service providing law and order are a net positive to society as a whole, but there is really no way to translate that into dollars and cents.

The benefits of education, law & order and fire services are externalized, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 3, 2011 11:47 AM
Comment #328549

Mike: “This is silly; Obama and company were predicting A Great Depression, Double-Dip Recession, and finacial collaps of the world, just 2 months ago(if the debt ceiling were not raised).”

Yes, but the debt ceiling was raised so I’m not sure of your point.

“I’m not sure what planet you come from, but we have seen no sign of a recovery since Obama got all the spending he wanted and promised un employment would not get above 8%.”

Estimate of 8% is not a promise, first of all. Second, no sign of recovery? We have been in recovery for over 2 years. Why are you wrong? Four reasons. The 4 major measurements for business cycle dating:

1. Real GDP: 0.5% below pre-recession peak with a low point of 5.1%. We are 98% back to the pre-recession levels.

2. Real personal income less transfer payments: 4.8% below pre-recession peak with a low point of of 11%. We are 56% back to pre-recession levels.

3. Industrial production: 6.5% below pre-recession peak with a low point of about 17%. We are 62% back to pre-recession levels.

4. Employment: 5% below pre-recession peak with a low point of about 6.5%. We are 23% back to pre-recession levels.

With the exception of unemployment, we are significantly on our way to being back to where we started in December 2007. We have a long hard road for employment because it depends on other parts of the economy to be much stronger than they are right now.

“You are blowing smoke by skirting this issue.”

And you are ignoring the fact that the majority of bad lending took place outside things like the Community Reinvestment Act. It was only after Wall Street started packaging these loans for huge profits and encouraging more and more loans be made that we had a problem.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at September 3, 2011 12:37 PM
Comment #328555


The public sector includes paved roads and traffic laws, building codes and fire prevention codes, fire and police protection, public schools, and welfare, etc.

“Colonists brought with them the English principle of public responsibility for the needy. The number of Boston’s poor receiving public assistance rose from 500 in 1700 to 4,000 in 1736; New York’s rose from 250 in 1698 to 5,000 in the 1700’s. Most of it went to “outdoor” relief in the form of money, food, clothing, and fuel,”—- AMERICA: A Narrative History——George Brown Tindall & David Emory Shi.

According to at least one conservative columnist, it is unAmerican to allow poor people to vote. Some argue that preventing the poor from voting is at the heart of conservative legislators supposed attempts to prevent voter fraud. The fact that evidence for voter fraud is minuscule at best lends credence to this argument.

Posted by: jlw at September 3, 2011 2:15 PM
Comment #328557

AD, talking to leftist who only know “defend a socialist” is a waste of time. I will include a link that didn’t come from Rush Limbaugh or Fox News and perhaps you can take the blinders off long enough to actually learn something:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/09/03/obamas_economic_policies_have_failed.html

I am forced to believe Larry Kudlow knows more about the economy than a bunch of wanna be economists on WB. Kudlow’s remarks fly in the face of the BS you are spreading. Read and learn…

Posted by: Mike at September 3, 2011 3:12 PM
Comment #328561

How many times has the liberals on WB been accused of posts that do nothing more than defend the administration’s latest talking points? And how many times have the liberals denied this allegation?

AD’s latest remarks throughout this post are made for the purpose of making Obama’s failures look like successes:

http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-chait/94488/obamas-campaign-deluded

And this is the plan; to make Obama look like Reagan or FDR; in other words to compare their presidencies. Of which their is no comparison.

Posted by: Mike at September 3, 2011 3:36 PM
Comment #328563

Mike:

Every conversation starts and ends the same with you. You accuse me of defending talking points, you present little or no evidence to make your case, you go negative and attack, then you call the whole thing a waste of your time. By all means stop wasting your time. If it’s not fun then don’t bother.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at September 3, 2011 4:05 PM
Comment #328564

Warped

A government that does not control things like police power is not the government. Since this is part of any government it doesn’t make any sense to classify it.

A free market economy includes and requires government to set rules and enforce the rule of law.

When people bring up the “S” word, they often setting up a silly dichotomy. Nobody advocates having NO government. The argument is about how much and how interventionist.

Fire, police, road etc do include external costs and benefits, as you say. It is possible to have private services for all these things, but ultimately, government must have the only right to the legitimate use of force. If it does not have that, it is not the government.

There is also the question of delivery of these services. I don’t think you can find many people who believe government has no role to play in police, fire, schools or roads.

But there is the question of delivery. We may say that government has a duty of public education, but it may not need to be delivered through a public bureaucracy.

Liberals on this blog like to pretend exaggerated grievances at being called socialists. They find an extreme position or parse words to avoid actual debate.

This is the REAL debate - How much government intervention do we want and in what forms do we want it?

The constraint is how much government CAN deliver, given the fact that it must deliver its services through a political process and a bureaucracy.

There are many things that it would be nice if government COULD do, but it cannot.

Jlw

Re voting - Every American, with exception of felons or some crazy people, has a right to vote. There is nothing to say that we need to encourage it or make it so easy that it takes no effort or responsibility.

I vote in every election, but I don’t vote for or against people I don’t know about. I personally think that everybody has a right to vote, but if you don’t want to take the time to think about voting and take the time to learn the issues, it is responsible of you not to.

Posted by: C&J at September 3, 2011 5:17 PM
Comment #328566

Oh AD, I didn’t say it wasn’t fun…

C&J haas brought up a valid point. The outrage of being called socialist is simply an excuse to ignore any content in the post.

Posted by: Mike at September 3, 2011 5:33 PM
Comment #328567

Mike: “Oh AD, I didn’t say it wasn’t fun…”

Just a waste of your time? Sounds fun to me.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at September 3, 2011 5:59 PM
Comment #328575


C&J, the American ideal of one person one vote is all the reason need for us to do all we can to encourage people to vote. Those who do not wish to participate do so now, and they are a very significant minority. This isn’t about them. It is about conservative lawmakers discouraging voting by passing legislation which does so. Most of this legislation is in the form of regulations that make it more costly to conform, thus having a greater effect on the poor. In most cases, the excuse of voter fraud is being used.

Considering the fact that the voters have been electing and reelecting a Congress that they consider terrible, speaks volumes about their knowledge of the issues and their choices for politicians. If this is what qualifies one to vote, then all are qualified.

Posted by: jlw at September 3, 2011 7:48 PM
Comment #328580

jlw

One man one vote is good AS A RIGHT. I wish everybody would take the time to know the issues and vote. But they don’t. As a free person, it is your right to vote. It is also your right not to vote, in which case you have made a de-facto choice that your fellow citizens can make a better choice.

It is relatively easy to vote. It is easier to vote than to do most other things people do. Stories about “repression” almost never pan out. Most of the times, when we have had actual sustained charges, it is democrats doing the deeds, as when they flatten Republican tires in Wisconsin.

The implicit belief of liberals is interesting. They think that if it is inconvenient to vote or difficult to understand ballots that their supporters will be the ones to suffer. It must mean that they think that their supporters are lazy and stupid in comparison to others who can figure it out and get there.

Posted by: C&J at September 4, 2011 8:17 AM
Comment #328587

“Just a waste of your time? Sounds fun to me.”

Posted by: Adam Ducker at September 3, 2011 5:59 PM

Oh, the fun is only beginning. As this next year comes and goes and we get closer to the 2012 elections, the left will become more and more shrill. I have thought about the intellectual superiority of the left (that is, in your own minds) and I believe you actually think your intelligence level is far above the common American. Along with this twisted mind theology comes the reality of life. And as the election draws closer the left absolutely cannot comprehend why the rest of America would reject their socialist ideas for the country. I love the way these intellectual midgets on the left love to quote GDP’s, incomes, taxes, and percentages; but you know what, 90% of Americans don’t understand or care. What they do understand is no job/no paycheck. With 20% of America’s workforce out of work and bills piling up, and futures evaporating; they could care less about another pep rally from Obama. When it’s all said and done; as the voters exercise their right to vote next year, the will be more than willing to send Obama’s ass back to Chicago and give control of the Senate to Republicans. Now, the left can complain all they want about conservatives lying and twisting the facts; but it comes down to people’s personal lives and welfare. Every poll in America shows Obama falling and Americans having less confidence in a recovery and the democrats ability to fix anything.

Posted by: Mike at September 4, 2011 10:39 AM
Comment #328589

Mike,

The outrage of being called socialist is simply an excuse to ignore any content in the post.

If you want a serious response, make a serious argument instead of resorting to abusing the word socialist and childish name-calling.

C&J,

A government that does not control things like police power is not the government. Since this is part of any government it doesn’t make any sense to classify it.

Not necessarily. Today in the United States, many large corporations govern our lives even though they posses no police of their own.

government must have the only right to the legitimate use of force. If it does not have that, it is not the government.

This is not true. Right now, I have the right to the legitimate use of force to promote my own self-defense. Historically, private armed groups have been hired by corporations to put down workers trying to organize a union. Historically, a slave-master had the right to use legitimate force upon the people he owned, but no one uses that fact to claim that Antebellum America had no government.

This is the REAL debate - How much government intervention do we want and in what forms do we want it?

The constraint is how much government CAN deliver, given the fact that it must deliver its services through a political process and a bureaucracy.

There are many things that it would be nice if government COULD do, but it cannot.

I agree this is the discussion worth having. Unfortunately, the conservatives on Watchblog want to skirt this issue. They like to use this dubious logical formation: Government action x redistributes wealth, redistributing wealth is socialism, socialism is bad, therefore we shouldn’t have the government do x. Bringing socialism into the discussion is just a lame attempt for the conservatives to feel better about themselves because they just called the liberals a nasty name instead of attempting to debate whether or not x is something government can/should be doing.

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 4, 2011 10:54 AM
Comment #328592

Adam and others here may want to read this article:

Goodbye to All That: Reflections of a GOP Operative Who Left the Cult

Here’s a few quotes he made regarding the debt ceiling battle:

The GOP cares solely and exclusively about its rich contributors. The party has built a whole catechism on the protection and further enrichment of America’s plutocracy. Their caterwauling about deficit and debt is so much eyewash to con the public.
During the week that this piece was written, the debt ceiling fiasco reached its conclusion. The economy was already weak, but the GOP’s disgraceful game of chicken roiled the markets even further. Foreigners could hardly believe it: Americans’ own crazy political actions were destabilizing the safe-haven status of the dollar. Accordingly, during that same week, over one trillion dollars worth of assets evaporated on financial markets. Russia and China have stepped up their advocating that the dollar be replaced as the global reserve currency - a move as consequential and disastrous for US interests as any that can be imagined.
Posted by: Adrienne at September 4, 2011 11:50 AM
Comment #328593

WR, what is it that bothers you so much about the name “socialist”? It’s only a name, and you know tha old saying about “names will never hurt”?

Don you have the same outrage with teabaggers, wingnuts, or corporate cronies? Those of us on the conservative side have been listening to name calling for a long time. You call this childish name calling, but would you like to look back through the archieves and see the names that have been used to describe Bush, Chenny, Rumsfeld, Palin, Bachmann, O’Donnel, or perhaps the more recently like Ryan, Christy, or Perry? Your side especially loves name calling consevatives because conservatives are diametrically opposed to socialism. In fact the left loves to personally attack anyone who is a threat. By personally mean looks, like their weight, or the the way they dress, their religious beliefs, or perhaps attacks on their children. Would you consider this childish name calling?

And for a little update to Adrienne; Russia and China wanted to replace the dollar as the reserve currency 2 yeras ago, so the debt ceiling had nothing to do wih this.

Posted by: Mike at September 4, 2011 12:46 PM
Comment #328595

adrienne

it would appear this person has an axe to grind, or is a fake. who did he work for? i found your article on a couple of left leaning web sites. if he is legit, why use an obviously partisan vehicle when you want to appear objective and honest? IMO that whole article is nothing than a left wing hit piece.

Posted by: dbs at September 4, 2011 1:11 PM
Comment #328596

Mike:

And for a little update to Adrienne; Russia and China wanted to replace the dollar as the reserve currency 2 yeras ago, so the debt ceiling had nothing to do wih this.

Actually, it was being floated long before only two years ago. The difference is, now it’s being very seriously discussed. That has everything to do with the debt ceiling battle. If you disagree with this assertion, why don’t you take it up with the guy who wrote that article, Mike Lofgren. That should be an interesting discussion for you since Lofgren is a 28 year veteran staffer for the GOP who worked in both the House and Senate Budget Committees.
If you choose to contact him, you might also want to read this LA Times op-ed he wrote back in June of this year:

Borrowing And Spending The GOP Way
The big deficit facing the U.S. is mostly Republican in origin, the Congressional Budget Office says. The Bush tax cuts alone have added $3 trillion in red ink, yet the party wants to double down on its failed policy.

Here’s a quote from that:

“My party talks a good game, railing about the immorality of passing debt on to our children. But the same Congressional Budget Office that punctured Obama’s budget also concluded that the major policies that swung the budget from a projected 10-year surplus of $5.6 trillion in 2001 to the present 10-year deficit of $6.2 trillion were Republican in origin.”
Posted by: Adrienne at September 4, 2011 1:21 PM
Comment #328598

dbs:

it would appear this person has an axe to grind, or is a fake. who did he work for? i found your article on a couple of left leaning web sites. if he is legit, why use an obviously partisan vehicle when you want to appear objective and honest? IMO that whole article is nothing than a left wing hit piece.

I answered your question in my previous reply. As for your smears about it being a left wing hit piece, perhaps that makes some sort of sense from the current lunatic-right viewpoint, but it obviously doesn’t to a longtime Republican with a career in Congress like Lofgren, who wrote:

It should have been evident to clear-eyed observers that the Republican Party is becoming less and less like a traditional political party in a representative democracy and becoming more like an apocalyptic cult, or one of the intensely ideological authoritarian parties of 20th century Europe.

And:

Far from being a rarity, virtually every bill, every nominee for Senate confirmation and every routine procedural motion is now subject to a Republican filibuster. Under the circumstances, it is no wonder that Washington is gridlocked: legislating has now become war minus the shooting, something one could have observed 80 years ago in the Reichstag of the Weimar Republic. As Hannah Arendt observed, a disciplined minority of totalitarians can use the instruments of democratic government to undermine democracy itself.

So go ahead and call Lofgren a “fake” if you choose. Lofgren is making it clear that he thinks the people in charge of his lifelong political party as well as the new crop of Teapublicans currently driving everything on the right are authoritarians and totalitarians who are undermining democracy — and that therefore, they are the fakes.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 4, 2011 1:44 PM
Comment #328599
what is it that bothers you so much about the name “socialist”?

If calling names is your best argument, you don’t haven’t displayed the maturity to warrant a better response from me. If all you want to do is call me socialist in order to tar me with various atrocities from last century, by all means go ahead, but I won’t take you seriously. Also, abusing the word socialist reveals that you aren’t very well informed with regards to political issues; this diminishes your credibility when you try to make an actual argument.


Don you have the same outrage with teabaggers, wingnuts, or corporate cronies?

I agree those words have no place in any serious political discussion, which is why I refrain from using those terms.

conservatives are diametrically opposed to socialism
Wrong, liberalism is the antithesis of socialism. Liberals oppose conservatives because conservative beliefs pave the path to socialism.
it would appear this person has an axe to grind, or is a fake. who did he work for? i found your article on a couple of left leaning web sites. if he is legit, why use an obviously partisan vehicle when you want to appear objective and honest? IMO that whole article is nothing than a left wing hit piece.

Here is a little background on Mike Lofgren for your curious mind. Here is his salary information. He recently worked for the Senate Budget Comittee, but worked for the House before 2006.

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 4, 2011 1:49 PM
Comment #328605

I have about as much confidence in Mike Lofgren and I do McCain or and other RINO. Just as a liberal politician’s greatest fear is the loss of power; the greatest fear of the Republican established old guard is the loss of power. The left has a real hard time understanding Republican Politics; we, of the conservative movement, have no use for the Republican old guard. We did not agree with many of the things Bush and Republicans did and the reason for the rise of the TP was to take back the GOP. And yet the left continues to try to lump all Republicans in the same group. We are not all the same. You stated that you did not like being accused of name calling because you didn’t do it. If that is true, why do you lump all republicans together? On the other hand we have seen a liberal socialist takeover of the Democratic Party and instead of Democrats putting up a fight; they are just leaving the party and becoming independents.
WR, you can show all the outrage you want about childish name calling, but until you are willing to voice your opinion every time the left personally attacks someone on the right, you are a contributor. I use the term Socialist to describe liberals because that’s what they are and the left can accuse me or any other conservative for not understanding the real meaning of “Socialism” all they want. I will use one example that the left loves to debate; obamacare is claimed to be a choice by the left and not socialized government run HC, but from the very beginning Obama and the libs wanted a single payer government run HC system and just settled for obamacare for now with the intension of expanding it at another time. We will see what the SC has to say about it, but I am sure it will be declared unconstitutional because the Fed does not have the right to force Americans to buy HC insurance. This is socialism. The attempts of the left to shut down free speech through the Fairness Doctrine are socialism. The bailout of one Company or Financial institution over another, based on the whim of a dictator is socialism.

Talk about ignorant statements, this is the best:

“Liberals oppose conservatives because conservative beliefs pave the path to socialism.”

Perhaps you could back this one up with some facts.

Posted by: Mike at September 4, 2011 3:03 PM
Comment #328608
I have about as much confidence in Mike Lofgren and I do McCain or and other RINO
I highly doubt you have longstanding knowledge about Mike Lofgren. You are just dismissing his opinion out of hand merely because it conflicts with your fallacious beliefs. Instead of listening to the truth, you throw one of your own under the bus. To be perfectly honest, I have trouble keeping tack of who is a “True Conservative” and who isn’t. Different WB commentators seem to have different opinions about different people. Some Republicans seem to considered “True Conservatives” one month, but discarded as “Establishment Republicans” the next; entirely at the convenience of conservatives unwilling to examine their beliefs.
a liberal socialist takeover
You just love this oxymoron don’t you?
until you are willing to voice your opinion every time the left personally attacks someone on the right, you are a contributor.
It’s not my job to protect your thin skin. I don’t use the terms myself, which should be sufficient to request that you do the same.
use the term Socialist to describe liberals because that’s what they are

Do liberals advocate nationalization of private industry? NO! So why do you persist repeating this falsehood?

the Fed does not have the right to force Americans to buy HC insurance. This is socialism.

No it isn’t. Socialism would be the abolition of the entire private health care industry and its replacement with a government medical service (like Britain’s NHS). Obama & Congressional Democratic never pushed for anything like this during the HC debates in 2009/2010. Even the public option was dropped very early on in those debates.

The attempts of the left to shut down free speech through the Fairness Doctrine are socialism.
If the Fairness Doctrine was used to restrict political speech, it would be authoritarianism, but not socialism. Socialism would be government ownership of the media.
The bailout of one Company or Financial institution over another, based on the whim of a dictator is socialism.
I think this is the first time you have actually correctly identified socialism. Congratulations. Fortunately, “The bailout of one Company or Financial institution over another, based on the whim of a dictator” is diametrically opposed to liberal ideology. However, it is quite common in conservative ideology.
Talk about ignorant statements, this is the best:

“Liberals oppose conservatives because conservative beliefs pave the path to socialism.”

Perhaps you could back this one up with some facts.

Socialism is a system when the government owns the industry OR when industry owns the government. The result is the same, a small group of elites plan the lives of everyone else. Conservatives use the government’s power of coercion to impede the free market; instead, conservatives use the government’s power to pick winners and losers in order to enrich the corporate aristocracy. One common avenue for doing this is permitting people to manipulate externalities in the marketplace. Conservative ideology induces the government to encourage the violation of property rights by forcing people to pay for other people’s deeds merely because the costs were externalized. Unbridled conservative ideology would also use the government to pick winners and losers in the marketplace by letting the exploitation of information asymmetries grow exponentially, allowing for more market manipulations. If conservative ideology was allowed free reign in this country, it would be the end of the free market; the collusion between the private and public sectors would increase until the distinction between the two withered away, leaving us with socialism.

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 4, 2011 4:02 PM
Comment #328610

Mike: “…what is it that bothers you so much about the name ‘socialist’?”

Personally I wouldn’t mind being called a socialist if I were actually a socialist. I’m not ashamed of the things I believe or the policies I support. I would just prefer not to be mislabeled simply as a smear tactic by my opponents because they’ve run out of legitimate counter arguments.

It’s no mystery why you do it, though. The American right must always defend the wealthy and big business against “unfair” taxation and regulation. That is what they do. In order to do so often times they are forced to make what is actually reasonable legislation, regulation or tax policies appear to be extreme with labels like “socialism” and “big government.”

Posted by: Adam Ducker at September 4, 2011 5:13 PM
Comment #328616

adrienne


i asked for more information about lofgren. i also brought up the point his accusations don’t seem to be anywhere but on two leftwing web sites.

“So go ahead and call Lofgren a “fake” if you choose. Lofgren is making it clear that he thinks the people in charge of his lifelong political party as well as the new crop of Teapublicans currently driving everything on the right are authoritarians and totalitarians who are undermining democracy”


it is you who are taking his accusations seriously, IMO mainly because they say what you want to hear. i could write an article and smear the democrat party claiming i was a former staff member just as he has, but when you paint with that broad a brush your accusations need to be backed up with solid proof…not opinions. so excuse me for questioning his integrity, but anyone who does what he has done needs to be prepared to provide solid proof. you have to ask yourself why this story hasn’t been carried by a major news organization. you may not like it, but it is a legitimate question.

Posted by: dbs at September 4, 2011 6:21 PM
Comment #328629

“The bailout of one Company or Financial institution over another, based on the whim of a dictator is socialism.”

Mike,

What are you referring to and who was/is the dictator? I presume that you must mean Bush because the bailout of the financial sector occurred during the Bush administration. The history is simple. The Bush administration declined to bail out Lehman. That precipitated a worldwide crash in the financial markets. The Bush administration, in total panic with an evening Rose Garden address, announced the need for a huge emergency bailout of the rest of the major players in the financial sector (TBTF banks). It was passed by Congress after a short delay.

Posted by: Rich at September 4, 2011 7:36 PM
Comment #328631

“i could write an article and smear the democrat party claiming i was a former staff member just as he has,”

dbs,

Is there any doubt that he actually was a former Republican staff member?

Its his opinion. Take it for what its worth. The opinion of a career Republican staff member who thinks his party has gone over the cliff.

Posted by: Rich at September 4, 2011 7:42 PM
Comment #328636

dbs,
I don’t give a sh*t what you think about that article or Lofgren. I didn’t post the piece for the illogical abusive teabagger brigade, I posted it so people on the left and some independents could read it.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 4, 2011 8:03 PM
Comment #328641

adrienne


“I don’t give a sh*t what you think about that article or Lofgren.”

i wasn’t rude to you adrienne. i simply made an observation and gave some reasons for my opiinion.


“I didn’t post the piece for the illogical abusive teabagger brigade,”


you posted it, and expect no one to question its legitimacy? that’s interesting, because if i had posted something like that in reverse you would have been all over it.


BTW adrienne, blowing a gasket, and and leveling insulting remarks doesn’t make your case any stronger. accusing people of personally attacking you for asking questions you can’t answer is illogical to say the least.

rich

don’t you find it odd a major media source hasn’t carried this story? instead it’s posted on two leftwing sites. IMO it doesn’t pass the smell test.

Posted by: dbs at September 4, 2011 8:42 PM
Comment #328643

I’m going to be as rude as all of you rightwingers are for a while. I’ll hope you enjoy it.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 4, 2011 8:49 PM
Comment #328650

dbs,

Adrienne & I have already posted links related to Lofgren from the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Monthly. My Washington Monthly link also has a link to James Fallows’ column at The Atlantic. I don’t know why you still say “don’t you find it odd a major media source hasn’t carried this story? instead it’s posted on two leftwing sites. IMO it doesn’t pass the smell test.”

I also posted a source showing that Lofgren was a salaried member of the Budgetary Committee staff. Lofgren is also mentioned here, which verifies his claim of retiring last June.

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 4, 2011 10:44 PM
Comment #328658

warped

i saw the LA times link, and yours to the senate staffer page. i’m more than happy to stand corrected on those two points. the op ed posted in the LA times is an abreviated version. i read part of the full article and skimmed the rest. the tone doesn’t change. the points he makes read like democrat talking points. i have to question his motive. it seems to me he was a democrat (at least in his personal beliefs) that was working for the republican party. like i said before, he talks like a democrat. if it walks and talks like a duck…. well, you know the rest.

Posted by: dbs at September 5, 2011 8:18 AM
Comment #328660

dbs,

Lofgren is not the first insider to raise a red flag about the movement of the Republican party to extremism. David Frum, former speech writer for GW Bush and editor for the National Review, has warned repeatedly about the dangers of the radical nihilism that the Republican party has embraced.

Posted by: Rich at September 5, 2011 9:38 AM
Comment #328662

dbs as it appears your conspiracy theory about Lofgren is just flat wrong why not offer up some evidence to prove your theory? You can make these wild unsubstantiated claims yet you have not offered anything that would debunk the man and/or his opinions.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 5, 2011 10:40 AM
Comment #328665

A very simple statement of fact.

Conservative does not equal republican nor democrat.

Liberal does not equal republican nor democrat.

The majority of both parties is considered liberal in the vernacular of today. So when someone says a “republican staffer” that does not mean conservative nor right wing nor any of those other pet labels of the left. The major goal of both political parties is to get to the same address, just taking a different route.

Posted by: tom humes at September 5, 2011 11:59 AM
Comment #328681

j2t2


“You can make these wild unsubstantiated claims yet you have not offered anything that would debunk the man and/or his opinions.”


and his article offers nothing but the standard leftwing talking points. that’s enough to question the motives of “the republican insider”. LOL!!

Posted by: dbs at September 5, 2011 4:00 PM
Comment #328696

dbs:

his article offers nothing but the standard leftwing talking points.

It’s getting pretty hilarious how exclusionary the loony the right side is willing to be these days — even lifelong Republicans are immediately “the other” if they dare criticize the new teapublican extremism.

that’s enough to question the motives of “the republican insider”. LOL!!

LOL indeed! That’s some kind of crazy dedication Lofgren had to one of our many leftwing spy operations! Just think, the guy spent almost thirty years working as a GOP staffer in Congress, and the whole time he was actually working solely for the left — and all so he could eventually write an LA Times Op-ed and that article for Truthout!
I’ll tell you what — that guy really deserves a big lefty undercover operative award of some kind!
Hahaha!

Posted by: Adrienne at September 5, 2011 7:41 PM
Comment #328699

Adrienne, these are called RINO’s and although you want to include them with conservatives, they are not. McCain is a RINO, and conservatives have no use for him. On the one hand you accuse the Conservative movement of hyjacking the Republican Party and on the other hand you try to include all republicans in the same group; which is it? If conservatives are hyjacking the republican party, then who in the republican party is the opposition to the conservatives? For us to be hyjacking, we must be hyjacking from someone who does not believe the same way as us, correct? I submit Lofgren is part of that group.

Posted by: Mike at September 5, 2011 8:45 PM
Comment #328708

Richard Trumka has just declared war on the Tea Party. In a speach he called on members of th AFL/CIO to “Take the son of bitches out”. I don’t know if it was a retorical statement or if he meant it literly. I will take him at his word.

In response to his statement, I think it is called for that everyone who supports the Tea Party to go on the offense against unions. I haven’t formulated a plan yet, but I’m thinking along the lines of being more vocal against unions, maybe boycotting union made products and companies, and fully supporting companies who are fighting union activities.

With union membership at an all time low the Tea Party is much larger and I believe we can win this war.

Posted by: tdobson at September 6, 2011 9:25 AM
Comment #328709

tdobson

Caution!! Union thuggery that they are so good at doing will cause physical harm to the tea partiers.

Don’t be surprised that the Trumpkaites resort to physical and property damage to make their case sound acceptable.

This would be SOP.

Posted by: tom humes at September 6, 2011 9:43 AM
Comment #328711

Tom,

I have a ccw permit and I’m armed. I was in the infantry and know how to protect myself. I’m not worried about my safety. Trumka declared war on us, we didn’t declare war on them.

Posted by: tdobson at September 6, 2011 9:47 AM
Comment #328712

I hereby proclaim that I am able and willing to cross any picket lines I can get to.

Posted by: tdobson at September 6, 2011 9:49 AM
Comment #328713

Fox News concerned about ‘hate speech’ from Obama supporters

Jimmy Hoffa Jr.:

“Everybody here has a vote. If we go back and we keep the eye on the prize. Let’s take these sons of bitches out and give America back to America where we belong.”
Posted by: Adrienne at September 6, 2011 10:30 AM
Comment #328730

Adrienne, what a great crowd “warm-up” statement that was. Hoffa set the tone for obama to follow. I wonder when obama will also publicly call for taking these SOB’s out?

Hoffa is merely a lieutenant in the Godfather’s gang.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 6, 2011 2:43 PM
Comment #328741

RF:

Adrienne, what a great crowd “warm-up” statement that was.

Haha! Indeed! It really was!

Hoffa set the tone for obama to follow. I wonder when obama will also publicly call for taking these SOB’s out?

Nah. American Presidents have to attempt to remain dignified in their speaking at all times (unless of course they’re Bush/Cheney and they’re too damn stupid/nasty to grasp this fact).
Now, if only Obama’s actions since he took office had been more of a reflection of Hoffa’s sentiments, both he and the entire left would now be in really good shape. But unfortunately and instead he tried to endlessly compromise with the right — whose only focus has been to destroy and denigrate him and everyone else on the left from day one.

Hoffa is merely a lieutenant in the Godfather’s gang.

Nope. He’s just a another Union Man — with the standard-issue large set of cajones that Union Men have always been pretty famous for possessing - all over the world! So don’t act too shocked, because lots and lots of union members are just as fed up as Hoffa is over the way the rightwing vampires have been trying to suck the blood out of our working class rights on behalf of Koch-flavored crony capitalism.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 6, 2011 5:46 PM
Comment #328747

I find it interesting that Jimmy Hoffa Sr. was dogged by the democrat Bobby Kennedy for years, at least until he was fitted with concrete boots. Adrienne, that’s one set of balls that went down with his boots on, LOL. Wonder who killed him?

Posted by: Mike at September 6, 2011 7:21 PM
Comment #328770

So let me get this straight, Hoffa Jr said ““Everybody here has a vote. If we go back and we keep the eye on the prize. Let’s take these sons of bitches out and give America back to America where we belong.”

It was then paraphrased by right wing media hacks and propagandist to “Take the son of bitches out”. But it was attributed to Richard Trumpa by either the right wing hacks or the right wing here on WB instead of to Hoffa JR? Have I got it right so far?

Trumpka “On CNN’s “Piers Morgan Tonight,” Trumka said he “probably wouldn’t have chose the adjectives [Hoffa] used” but that he supports the premise.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/06/trumka-sticks-with-hoffas-vitriolic-rhetoric-adds-that-tea-partiers-don%e2%80%99t-have-right-to-say-they%e2%80%99re-only-%e2%80%98patriotic%e2%80%99-americans/#ixzz1XELexsqP

Now we have Tdobson and Tom Humes calling the unions members thugs and worse, loading up the pistols and hitting the mattress’s? Seriously guys, do you always over react to what the right wing media hacks tell you. Don’t you at least stop and question it for a second or are you really just looking for any excuse to shoot a union member in the streets? Such hatred such misinformation such buffoonery.

Here take our excess anger out on the newest video game. But be aware it is from the same right wing media hacks that brought you the last bit of silliness.


http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/06/new-tea-party-zombie-game-allows-players-to-shoot-up-fox-news-american-for-prosperity-offices/

Posted by: j2t2 at September 6, 2011 10:45 PM
Comment #328776

You are right j2t2, it was Hoffa jr. who said it. It doesn’t change anything. Is he not still a union leader? Did he not tell his union members to “take the son of bitches out” refering to the Tea Party?

Posted by: tdobson at September 7, 2011 12:25 AM
Comment #328785

j2t2

I made no mention of who said the sob description. I was referring to the Trumpka speech he gave as to how to defeat the tea partiers. Fear is in the eye of the beholder. I am not fearful. It did apply as much as the Hoffa, jr. speech. Neither one maintained the civility the president requested, and refused to condemn. So much for hope or change. Just transform America, and Obama and friends are doing just that. Their golden rule is properly labeled the turd rule. Crap on those who you think need crapped on no matter which way.

Posted by: tom humes at September 7, 2011 10:51 AM
Comment #328796

This is really funny:

Stewart: Conservatives suddenly allergic to violent rhetoric

Posted by: Adrienne at September 7, 2011 5:05 PM
Comment #328797

tdobson, yes he did tell them that. He said ““Everybody here has a vote. If we go back and we keep the eye on the prize. Let’s take these sons of bitches out and give America back to America where we belong.”

Now if all you heard was “Let’s take these sons of bitches out” then it seems to me you have the problem. Once one reads it in context it is obvious Hoffa Jr. was referring to voting the tea party caucus out of office,though. Why else would he have led with “Everybody here has a vote”?

Flying off the handle as you and Tom did shows where the anger and violence is coming from these days. You guys are grasping at straws when you bastardize this quote. Your anger and hatred are showing.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 7, 2011 5:09 PM
Comment #328811

Most Americans really don’t put much stock in anything Hoffa says. We all know what and who he is. He is nearly irrelevant in American politics. I believe his “red meat” oratory was merely evidence of the clown performing for the king to gain favor.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 7, 2011 6:55 PM
Comment #328828
Most Americans really don’t put much stock in anything Hoffa says.

Faux thought enough of him to run a heavily edited clip of him on their cable stations Royal. Tom thought enough of him to falsely accuse him of inciting violence. Tdobson thought enough of him to let everyone know he was armed and ready for the violence that was about to ensue. And of course they were not alone, Royal the right wing media propagandist riled up many conservatives who once again took Faux at their word. My god guys how many times and how many ways does it take before you learn about these hate spewing extremist media outlets like Faux? Shame on you.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 7, 2011 10:04 PM
Comment #328845

j2t2

It is my opinion that you spewed more hate above than Fox (which you hatefully say Faux). Then you accuse several people of just relaying what they saw and you called us hate filled. That just doesn’t make sense. The left on WB continues to resort to using the word hate when they have no defense. That makes them feel like they said something rational, logical, and correct. Only in their dreams.

Posted by: tom humes at September 8, 2011 11:28 AM
Comment #328854

You right-sided propagandists absolutely love to pounce on the tiniest of morsels to mutilate and reshape into clones of your own narrow and limited beliefs. Incredible! You have only to play the clip…just once is enough for fairly intelligent people….and see that your mountain in no way even resembles the molehill from whence it was spawned!
You’re pitiful………..and desperate.

Posted by: jane doe at September 8, 2011 1:57 PM
Comment #328880
It is my opinion that you spewed more hate above than Fox (which you hatefully say Faux).

I say “Faux” in lieu of “Fox” because “Faux” means fake which is what I think “Fox” is much of the time. To me it is just an accurate reflection of the facts Tom nothing hateful about it.

Then you accuse several people of just relaying what they saw and you called us hate filled.

I didn’t accuse you guys of relaying what you saw Tom I said you were dupes of the propaganda machine that is Faux. You jumped to conclusions when you saw the Faux report and immediately spewed hateful comments towards Trumpka and Hoffa Jr. because Faux mislead you. Yet when it was pointed out you didn’t issue any apology or retraction or a simple “I spoke to soon, my anger should be directed towards Faux for editing the comment as they did”.


That just doesn’t make sense. The left on WB continues to resort to using the word hate when they have no defense. That makes them feel like they said something rational, logical, and correct. Only in their dreams.

Tom no defense against what, foolish comments from you guys? Look ay the comments you two made and tell me you don’t see the anger and hate towards the union guys. If you can’t see the hatred then I feel for you guy.

Posted by: j2t2 at September 8, 2011 4:39 PM
Comment #328914

Tdobson good job. This link shows exactly what I am talking about. The conservative movement propagandist Malkin is seen trying to fool you righties into thinking this has something to do with the Tea party and the recent sppech by Hoffa.
Good thinking skills to realize her sophistry is obvious Tdobson. Instead of going off at the mouth you remained calm as it seems to me you understood that the speech on labor day, that she once again edited probably to enrage you, and the labor dispute are 2 separate issues. Who in their right mind would believe that these longshoreman thought they were attacking teabaggers instead of other union workers.

Now if you can just ignore this Malkin and encourage others to do so, her kind of lies would go away. To think she would still quote out of context shows what kind of person she is.

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Comment #330871

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