Democrats & Liberals Archives

Behaving Like a President

Presidential behavior: we know it when we see it; and like an obscenity, we recognize a failure when we see it, too. How does this apply to Obama, Romney, Perry, and Bachmann?

Obama often makes the left wail and gnash teeth because he is not progressive enough. He receives criticism for his conciliatory actions, which can also be seen as compromise, capitulation, or caving in, depending on your politics. The right alternately denounces Obama's tyrranical behavior and then his weakness. Yet what both sides fail to recognize is that Obama consciously follows a strategy of being a unifying force. He sets himself in the middle- or is it outside?- and mediates between legislative factions, often using Biden to work behind the scenes. In short, he behaves like a president without a party affilitation. When combined with his natural demeanor, the tenor of his voice, and measured diction, it makes for a very effective example of presidential behavior. He has found a political tack which matches his personality, so he consistently looks comfortable in his own skin.

Contrast this strategy with the top GOP candidates: Romney, Perry, and Bachmann. (If you'd like to make a case for others, such as Ron Paul, please feel free). Romney does the best job. He looks the part, if looking the part means wearing a suit and tie and still appearing to be in his natural element, and his speech is consistently measured and intelligent. Yet Romney's words belie his appearance. He represents the corporatist element of the GOP, and does not naturally exude the passion and anger of the far right. "Corporations are people, my friend," he recently stated, and it was a statement expressed simply, elegantly, and with a smile, a natural reaction to a heckler in an audience. When Romney attempts to play the part of a fiery partisan, he fails. He says things that contradict what most people think he actually believes, things that contradict his previous acts while in office, and most people recognize that. It undercuts his presidential appearance because no one likes a phony, regardless of the politics. Cultivating the far right simply does not work for Romney, and the great question of 2012 GOP politics is whether money and business interests will carry the day. (Hint: always bet on the money).

Perry received a harsh lesson this week in presidential behavior when he suggested the Chairman of the Federal Reserve would be a traitor if the Fed engaged in quantitative easing. Perry followed this with a vague threat about how such people are treated in Texas. His statement turned the flavor of the month rancid almost overnight, generating immediate criticism from fellow Republicans. Presidential behavior does not allow for accusing high officials of "treasonous" acts. Lesson one: you're always on. Always. It would be a good idea to drop words like "traitor" and "treacherous" from the vocabulary. Like Romney, Perry looks presidential. Unlike Romney, Perry is comfortable expressing the passion, anger, and religious affirmations of the right wing. When it comes to presidential behavior, he knows how to walk the walk, but still has a lot to learn about how to talk the talk, because the presidency involves more than just appealing to one group of Americans.

Bachmann suffers a similar problem. In just a few months she has made huge strides in behaving presidentially, but obviously still has a lot to learn. She has successfully toned down hot rhetoric, and now consistently stresses her approaches to problems as pragmatic and practical. For Bachmann, when it comes to presidential behavior, her greatest asset is also her greatest flaw. It is a constant struggle to rein in her naturally effusive behavior and personality.

It is hard to imagine being under the kind of pressure experienced by presidential candidates. Every word, every gesture is recorded. The microphone is always on, and opponents wait to make hay from the most insignificant gaffe, the slightest slip in the promotion of a presidential facade. Good luck!

Posted by phx8 at August 16, 2011 11:40 PM
Comment #327785

Romney is a corporate executive not a president. I expect him to try to sell me a car whenever I see him. His “corporations are people” logic shows the lack of critical thinking skills necessary for a president

Perry is a buffoon. A good looking buffoon but a buffoon none the less. I expect to see him pushing another candidate down the stairs in public the first chance he gets. Willing to lie cheat and steal for personal gain isn’t real presidential qualities, Perry has them in abundance.

Bachmann, what can you say about the crazed demeanor she pulls off without trying. If you meant her in McDonald’s would you drag the kids away and wait for the police? I say this because of an incident with a guy with that wild eye look just a few days ago. She isn’t even congressional let alone presidential.

Out of the repubs I like Roemer and Ron Paul. Roemer has the ability to be presidential. Paul had integrity. They both seem to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time unlike say Santorium or Bolton. If I were wanting to choose a corporate dictator I would look to either Allen West or Herman Cain. However since I prefer democratic leadership I don’t think these guys will cut it.

Hunstman seems most presidential of the pack, more so than Romney IMHO. Of course we won’t get to find out as we have media coverage of the big 3 and the others are all but forgotten.

Posted by: j2t2 at August 17, 2011 9:12 AM
Comment #327786

Damn Phx8, pretty level headed outline of the President and the candidates behavior so far.

My opinion:
Obama - Does do a good job of trying to appear centrist. He’s no dummy and knows that is how he won in 2008 and the only way he can win in 2012. Biggest beef is with his blaming everything else rather than stepping up.

Romney - Republican version of kerry. Boring, dull and trying to seem like Mr. Nice Guy of the bunch.

Bachmann - Hillary of the campaign. Shrill voice. Grasping at anything she thinks will help.

Perry - Still early to tell for sure. I don’t think he will have a ‘God and guns’ moment with the voters as Obama did, but do think he will have problems with the Republican establishment in DC and the media.

Posted by: kctim at August 17, 2011 9:24 AM
Comment #327793

FIrst of all let me explain these fellas are all doubles, in other words there is no Romney, Paul or Obama. The reason being is that we are at war now internally. Obama was replaced almost immediately as soon as ‘she’ (not a he) took office. The replacement was and is still an excellent choice, he’s a bit reticent about making any kind of policy changes but it’s better than being Gulaged by Islamic China which is whom we are at war with. So we will have the country back up shortly,intel had to take it down,all congress (both houses) got the smart idea they would try to overthrow our nation at it’s most vulnerable, thinking a black president could be such a opportunity to take America down so we “removed” them, all of them. The whole plan of destroying us while off at war in Iraq was foiled entirely and still going.

The truth;the Republicans on both the left and right are not American citizens.

We are through the rough stuff it’s now just finding the mericinarial staff to remove the rest of them, a notable 11 trillion from Islamic breeding camps in Europe. Reagan started bringing them over in the 80’s to teach us a lesson. All funeral homes are bursting at the seams with republican cadavers and we won’t stop until all republicans are dead.

Posted by: HOYLE_CRAF at August 17, 2011 12:01 PM
Comment #327794

From the pen of David Kaiser:

“We have elected a man that no one really knows anything about, who has never run so much as a Dairy Queen, let alone a town as big as Wasilla , Alaska .. All of his associations and alliances are with real radicals in their chosen fields of employment, and everything we learn about him, drip by drip, is unsettling if not downright scary (Surely you have heard him speak about his idea to create and fund a mandatory civilian defense force stronger than our military for use inside our borders? No? Oh, of course. The media would never play that for you over and over and then demand he answer it. Sarah Palin’s pregnant daughter and $150,000 wardrobe are more important.)”

Germany—“Economic times were tough, people were losing jobs, and he was a great speaker. And he smiled and frowned and waved a lot. And people, even newspapers, were afraid to speak out for fear that his “brown shirts” would bully and beat them into submission. Which they did - regularly. And then, he was duly elected to office, while a full-throttled economic crisis bloomed at hand - the Great Depression. Slowly, but surely he seized the controls of government power, person by person, department by department, bureaucracy by bureaucracy. The children of German citizens were at first, encouraged to join a Youth Movement in his name where they were taught exactly what to think. Later, they were required to do so.”

Sounds oh, so familiar. Obama even said he wanted to “transform America”. What needs to be transformed in America? Those who think Obama is going to solve our problems have a lot to consider. 938 days after his election he is going to give congress a jobs proposal. Slow mover, I think. And what is that proposal to be that he can’t give a hint of it in his taxpayer funded campaign trip. Slow mover at work. If it is anything like what he called a health care reform, God help us. It would be something like making it mandatory for business to hire x number of people and of the right mix. It would be to mandate all small businesses to follow NLRB rules and require them to unionize without a vote. It would require a union czar in every municipality in the country. And those would only be the minor changes.

Now that is presidential

Slipped up a bit. Now that is presidential hogwash. Slop it up.

Posted by: tom humes at August 17, 2011 12:09 PM
Comment #327795

The US is now A and B clan and associates only, any intercession into our glorious nation, these glorious United States of OURS (not yours), will be met with deadly force. There are quite a few of us (2 billion or more rough deadlies) and we, to reiterate, do not lose as we have not lost one battle throughout any of this strife(the last three and a half years or so), all fake citizens and interlopers will be liquidated dot on—stay out unless you care to court our traffic madness here. You can bring in whomever you want, staties, Sowetto slaughter hounds, Boheme Psi-ops, setters, fake cops, Japanese et al, to supposedly throw us Americans out of our nation through Jacobinism, fake bureaucracy and price gouging etc—we invite it Russia so by all means bring it kids, it’s on and you know it. Our guys and gals will transduce your blood and rip you in twain right here in the good ol’ USA—come and play by all means.

Posted by: HOYLE at August 17, 2011 12:45 PM
Comment #327800

Hoyle, thank you, I feel better about my mental status already.

tom h., the Beckbaughian quote of the day:

“The function of propaganda is to attract supporters, the function of organization to win members…Propaganda works on the general public from the standpoint of an idea and makes them ripe for the victory of this idea, while the organization achieves victory by the persistent, organic, and militant union of those supporters who seem willing and able to carry on the fight for victory.”

Adolf Hitler-Mein Kampf

Phx8, You say Obama conducts himself as a non party affiliated president. Do you think he will resort to courting the progressives again in his bid to be reelected?

He is out courting rural America with a promise of jobs. The courters come and go, the jobs never show.

Tell him we would prefer a few Silicon Valleys rather than a few silicon mines. Tell him we prefer manufacturing plants much more than fracting. Tell him we have a crap pot full of mining leftovers. Perhaps he can find a market for them.

We can tell Obama the same thing we have told his predecessors, WE ARE STILL WAITING. We can tell him that we have no problem reading the writing on the wall telling us where the jobs are, or used to be, and what we have to do to get them. For generations, our greatest export has been our children. Being constantly forced to export your best and brightest has consequences.

Posted by: jlw at August 17, 2011 5:08 PM
Comment #327802

If we had a chimpanzee in the oval office; it would be more presidential than Obama. Obama is in full campaign mode; tax payers paid millions for his buses and millions more so he can travel around and “Listen” to the people, but when one of the people asked him a tough question, Obama’s statement to him was, “you just aren’t listening to me”. Obama is a disgrace and has absolutely no idea what he is doing.

Gallup shows a 39% approval rating;

Since the economy is the most important issue to the American voters, only 26% of voters approve of the way Obama is handling the economy;

Not to mention Rasmussen has had Obama in a -22 to 23% approval/ disapproval index for the past couple of weeks;

Posted by: Mike at August 17, 2011 5:37 PM
Comment #327813
If we had a chimpanzee in the oval office; it would be more presidential than Obama.

Mike been there, didn’t work out so well. Still digging out from the chimp.

Posted by: j2t2 at August 17, 2011 7:55 PM
Comment #327814
What needs to be transformed in America?

The HOR for starters Tom. The majority leadership thought party politics were more important than the Country.

Back when Obama was making the statement we had almost 7 years of conservative rule. The conservative ideology that gave rise to the financial meltdown and “to big to fail” along with the conservatives wanting to make the country small enough to drown in the bathtub is what I thought he was addressing. But it seems I was wrong.

Posted by: j2t2 at August 17, 2011 8:09 PM
Comment #327815

No, I don’t think he will tack left to court progressives. Why should he? The conservatives have become so radicalized they are painting themselves into a corner that will only appeal to a small portion of the population. Romney is smart enough to realize that, but he has to get past the primaries first. Obama may not generate much enthusiasm this time around, but neither will Romney. Compared with the competition, Obama looks like the only game in town. Is he vulnerable on the economy? Yes. Is he vulnerable on the issue of jobs? Yes.

But for some inexplicable reason, conservatives focus on the debt and deficits. They completely and utterly fail to take advantage of that. Go figure. Instead, they take actions which actually hurt the economy and hurt job creation. Politically speaking, with enemies like this, who needs friends? Who needs progressives?

Part of what makes Obama so different is that I believe he has a very different view of the presidency than the previous president. In office, Bush acted as if he were leader of the Republican party first, and head of the executive branch second. The Chief Executive was there to enact a conservative agenda. Not surprisingly, after the election and the enactment of tax cuts in 2001 and 2003, Bush nearly ceased to function as anything more than a cheerleader for conservatism. He succeeded in cutting and defunding regulation, and promoting privitization, but failed in actually creating anything new. As we are all aware, the final results were terrible.

To be fair, the GOP leaders of the House and Senate were weak.

Obama has successfully passed a lot of legislation, and for that he has Nancy Pelosi to thank. Whether one agrees or disagrees with the agenda, Pelosi was extremely competent as a majority leader. Now that the House & Senate are split, Obama behaves as more of a conciliator, an executive above it all. That is fortunate, since the Senate remains stymied into inaction by its own rules, and the House continues to flounder under the incompetent leadership of Boehner.

It is no coincidence that while Obama’s approval rating hits a new low of 39%, people still like him. Part of that is due to his behavior- his presidential behavior. Meanwhile, approval ratings for Congress hit historic lows. That is why Obama keeps stressing job formation these days. The focus on debt and deficits was almost insanely stupid, yet Congressional Republicans seem mesmerized by the subject.

Posted by: phx8 at August 17, 2011 8:11 PM
Comment #327819
It would be something like making it mandatory for business to hire x number of people and of the right mix. It would be to mandate all small businesses to follow NLRB rules and require them to unionize without a vote. It would require a union czar in every municipality in the country. And those would only be the minor changes.

Tom although you focus your delusional comments on small business I think you may have a good idea. Why not have all corporations unionized to level the playing field? If your business has shareholders the business is required to unionize without a vote. No czars required. Perhaps it would help to solve the to “big to fail” problem as well as many other problems caused by corporations.

Posted by: j2t2 at August 17, 2011 10:09 PM
Comment #327821

Yes j2t2, then we could be just like Europe, wouldn’t we?

Posted by: TomT at August 17, 2011 10:56 PM
Comment #327824

No Tom T we wouldn’t. We don’t have single payer health insurance. Besides I am not sure Europe has as many far right wing nuts as we do. They seem to be more intelligent and able to tell fact from fiction.

Posted by: j2t2 at August 17, 2011 11:39 PM
Comment #327836

j2t2, single payer system is the direction Obama and liberals wanted to take us, but have failed. Europe has never had a large number of “right wing nuts”, simply because Europeans have never tasted of the freedom Americans have experienced. Half of my family are English, and when my cousins visit America, they are shocked at the freedoms we have; yet by our standards, our freedoms are slowly eroding. Europe is on the verge of complete economic collaps due to their socialist programs, and Obama and company are trying to design our nation after Europe. I find nothing about Europe that shows increased intelligence.

Posted by: TomT at August 18, 2011 9:03 AM
Comment #327840

Oh I don’t know Tom T. isn’t paying roughly half per capita of what we pay for health care with better results intelligent? Obama and liberals IMHO did want to take us their. As far as financial collapse the problem is more the results of the banking scandal than socialist policies. I understand that many on the right think that if we get rid of all these programs and lower our taxes things will be great but then what is the difference between collapse and the conservative utopia you wish for? Intelligence is saving us from ourselves sometimes, which we don’t seem to be able to do in this country. But Tom T we are off on a tangent , tell me which of these presidential candidates has the qualities to actually be president?

Posted by: j2t2 at August 18, 2011 9:57 AM
Comment #327845


I want to interject and answer. Most of them don’t. Neither does Obama. What more do I say. Statesmen are a rare breed today and none are running for president.

They all have the necessary faults to be president.

My personal choice is Herman Cain.

Posted by: tom humes at August 18, 2011 11:43 AM
Comment #327850

On November, 1st, 2010 in the late evening at 22.42 the British parliament becomes the witness of very strange performance of lord James of a baron

Blekhitsky which essence was reduced to that he tried to inform members of chamber of lords the fact of existence of a certain strange organization

which wishes to give the huge sum of money for restoration of economy of Great Britain and which it in the performance called as “Fund X”.

Posted by: tank at August 18, 2011 1:47 PM
Comment #327853

Perry denied climate change the other day, and here’s more of Perry’s jaw-dropping nuttiness and stupidity:

Perry dismisses evolution as ‘a theory that’s out there’

Posted by: Adrienne at August 18, 2011 2:48 PM
Comment #327855

Perry is not holding up well to scrutiny, which is hardly surprising. He’s another flavor of the month with no experience in the national spotlight. Comments that might work out just fine in Texas meet with derision elsewhere. It’s a learning experience. I am highly amused to watch the GOP pretend Bush and Perry do not get along. The Republicans are desperate to avoid all reference to Bush, but it’s really hard to do with a guy like Perry, who served as Lt Gov for Bush for six years, flew for the Air Force while Bush flew for the Guard, served as Gov like Bush did, and believes in a virtually identical ideology.

When is the last time you’ve seen a conservative refer to Bush? For conservatives, history started in January 2009.

Posted by: phx8 at August 18, 2011 4:18 PM
Comment #327859

If Perry is making a mockery of GW, then he is not alone, most Americans believe the same way.

There is an old saying, “you can tell who the liberals fear most, by who they attack most”. You fear Perry!!!

Posted by: TomT at August 18, 2011 5:12 PM
Comment #327860

Tom T

i was just about to say that, but you beat me to it. he doesn’t believe the MMGW BS, and has doubts about evolution. OH NO !!!

Posted by: dbs at August 18, 2011 5:22 PM
Comment #327861

Progressives need to decide if they prefer the Republican get-er done now approach or the Democrats go slow approach.

Posted by: jlw at August 18, 2011 5:30 PM
Comment #327864

I’ve wondered about that. The Obama administration is approaching a moment of crisis which will probably come with the next budget negotitations. Obama needs to become confrontational, but it seems to be foreign to his nature. He should have forced the debt ceiling to a crisis. Now, the potential for a very bad outcome becomes worse. The GOP will assume they can push to any extent, and Obama will cave. Obama may actually stand firm, and the result could easily be a government shutdown.

Part of the problem is that the Republicans want the economy to fail. When Perry called the Chairman of the Federal Reserve treasonous and traitorous, and threatened him with rough treatment in TX, most people focused on Perry’s inappropriate, unpresidential behavior. Most overlooked the content of the remarks; that stimulating the economy prior to November 2012 was to avoided at all costs.

Think about that.

Posted by: phx8 at August 18, 2011 5:51 PM
Comment #327865

A preference for myth over science is not a presidential disqualifier.

As opposed to another Republican candidate that believes both the creation myth and the MSMGW myth.

I would have thought the the most significant thing we have learned about Perry is that he has a thing for Keynesian economics. But, I guess that can be said of many Texas Republican politicians.

The big question is, can any of these candidates gain the nomination without first obtaining the Murdock seal of approval?

Posted by: jlw at August 18, 2011 5:54 PM
Comment #327866

phx8, while you are wondering about that, I will be wondering if the conservatives are accurate in labeling all the great legislative accomplishments of Pelosi as part of the socialist agenda rather than being more intune with the corpocracy agenda.

Posted by: jlw at August 18, 2011 6:41 PM
Comment #327868


If we financed medical care in this country as any other advanced developed nation has, our fiscal and deficit problems would not exist. Businesses would have a huge yoke lifted from their necks. Just take a minute and plug in the health care expenditures from any other country and see what the deficit would be like in the US if we had adopted those policies.

You might also consider the root cause of the US and European debt crisis. It was not profligate government spending. It was profligate private sector debt. Before the economic collapse, the US deficits were not unmanageable. Before the collapse, Ireland, for example, had a public sector surplus. It has been the socialization of that bad private sector and bank debt that has dragged the governments of the world into crisis. We and the Europeans have decided to protect the investor class at the expense of the main economy. Follow the money Tom.

Posted by: Rich at August 18, 2011 7:50 PM
Comment #327871


“Part of the problem is that the Republicans want the economy to fail.”

That is a myth that has been repeated far too often and should be tossed into the abyss. You can go to the well so many times before it becomes tainted. It is now tainted. If the truth of the matter was known, your claim would fit the left more quickly.


This is the United States. If we were to follow the other nations of this world, we would be in just as bad a shape as the rest of the world. We have a different standard and policy of doing things here. Albeit the policy and standard has not been followed for some time.

Posted by: tom humes at August 18, 2011 9:16 PM
Comment #327873

tom humes-
Greece is in the trouble it is, because nobody really paid their taxes, there was a big real estate bubble, and Goldman Sachs and other investment banks encouraged unwise investments.

Wait, we’re following them?

What you’re failing to see is that other places have tried austerity, and just like us see declining fortunes and rising unemployment on that account. Your people push austerity, saying that bad times like these are the best times to cut down.

But you know what? I think that’s only true if you plan on things remaining this crappy for the long term.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 18, 2011 10:02 PM
Comment #327879

Republicans don’t really want the economy to fail, they just want to keep it stalled out till the election. If they win, their constituents will understand if they have to stimulate the economy. The Republicans whole strategy is based on defeating Obama. It is uncertain that they can continue it till the elections because the people are catching on quickly. They certainly won’t be able to continue the strategy if Obama wins.

Posted by: jlw at August 19, 2011 2:17 AM
Comment #327885


Then why do we even have the word austerity? When do we apply it? We have not been austere in good times nor in bad. The democratic plan is to spend ourselves into such a hole that the next new president, which will be 2012, will have such a mess it will take hurtful measures to get us straightened out. We have that now. Administrations both republican and democrat have been playing this sorrowful game for decades. It is time to get somebody in congress and the white house that believes in and practices the limits the constitution places on government. Until then we will have a government as described by a fellow poster, d.a.n. or until the totalitarians have their way. Either way I probably won’t be around, but my offspring will. And I don’t want to have them go thru any more of a mess than possible.


Posted by: tom humes at August 19, 2011 9:40 AM
Comment #327891

How presidential is this? He is warning us all about a “lone wolf” attack? That will be an inside job. It will be designed to make him “presidential”. It will show he can deal with a crisis. Ya, one of their own making.

Posted by: tom humes at August 19, 2011 12:06 PM
Comment #327894


Perry is not holding up well to scrutiny, which is hardly surprising. He’s another flavor of the month with no experience in the national spotlight. Comments that might work out just fine in Texas meet with derision elsewhere.

You are so right phx8! And LOL — here’s the kind of derision that is designed to leave no one in any doubt!:

Former Reagan Aide: “Rick Perry is an idiot, and I don’t think anybody would disagree with that.”

Posted by: Adrienne at August 19, 2011 2:55 PM
Comment #327896

John Huntsman: A candidate smart enough to distance himself as far as he can from the Perry nuttiness and stupidity (on Twitter):

“To be clear. I believe in evolution and trust scientists on global warming. Call me crazy.”

However, this clear indication of intelligence and obvious lack of crazy probably means he just lost the entire Fox News crowd — and thus, the Republican nomination.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 19, 2011 3:18 PM
Comment #327897

tom h., When Obama starts telling us about Hugo Chavez and his WMD, his Mobile biological labs, and that he is purchasing yellow cake uranium, perhaps we will know not to believe it this time around since we have had that one pulled on us before.

Do you think Obama should revive the Bush color coded terrorist attack alert system for the election playoffs next year? He could have us bouncing back and forth between serious, grave and imminent danger of attack in the weeks leading up to the election, just like Bush did. It’s not good policy to change leadership when we are under threat of being attacked at any second.

I don’t think anyone should dismiss the chances of Perry winning the nomination and the election. The people are fully capable of electing this guy, idiot or not. They elected Bush! Twice!

Posted by: jlw at August 19, 2011 3:44 PM
Comment #327932

And Obama once, only. They are getting smarter.

Posted by: tom humes at August 20, 2011 10:49 AM
Comment #327933


I don’t think anyone should dismiss the chances of Perry winning the nomination and the election. The people are fully capable of electing this guy, idiot or not.

Since Bank of America’s Crony Capitalists are already promising to “help” Perry, maybe he should already be considered a shoe-in for the GOP nomination:
Open mic catches Bank of America official vowing to ‘help’ Perry

Bet that will be a rich stick of “Fried Butter” for Perry!

They elected Bush! Twice!

Personally, I’ve never been convinced. And let me be clear: The votes weren’t counted and the Supreme Court Unconstitutionally appointed Bush in 2000. The election was Stolen in 2004.
Greg Palast, Brad Friedman, Bob Fitrakis & Harvey Wasserman, and Mark Crispin Miller all covered this topic exhaustively and very convincingly; and even though these guys did all the painstaking legwork for them, the MSM completely refused to do their job (as usual) and never reported the story.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 20, 2011 10:58 AM
Comment #327949


Now you just couldn’t bring yourself to document the 485 dead people that voted for LBJ for him to get into the congress. Nor could you bring yourself to document other dead people and people who were not not eligible to vote in other places; that would be just too much wouldn’t it. Of course there are a lot of sources that write about the “fraud” but few can prove it.

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Comment #330876

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