Democrats & Liberals Archives

Debt Deal Will Ensure Economy Lives, But Puts It On Life Support

There’s no way out of it. Spending cuts will slow down our economy. If the 3rd and 4th quarters of this year are moving at a quicker pace we may be alright. If they’re as slow as the 1st and 2nd quarters then we’re in a pickle.

It should be no shock that we're getting a debt ceiling deal with just spending cuts, no revenue, and nothing useful to solve our real economic problems. The GOP had a problem to tackle that superseded the economic troubles in the United States. They'd been elected to cut spending by a sector of bitter, delusional and misinformed American voters and the GOP was not about to let the hacks down.

Brad DeLong sums it up this way:

It is a loss for the American people: it is not the way that they want to reduce the long-term deficit. It is certainly not a win for bipartisan compromise.

And it is not a win for the economy.

More from Brad DeLong:

A first guess: -0.4% off of fiscal 2012 real GDP growth, with an unemployment rate in November 2012 0.2% above the baseline.

A hideous waste of opportunity. There is nothing in there to boost employment and capacity utilization. Absolutely nothing.

So how bad is this deal really? Well, we don't know yet. I'm sure we'll see a host of scores from CBO and other agencies this week measuring the actual impact on debt and GDP. It will probably be too late if we see something bad coming from it. The GOP intentionally made this come down to the wire so that it would be law by the time anyone actually realizes how bad this could be.

The "compromise" could still fail in Congress but the chances are slim and besides that this is sadly the last and best chance we have to avoid a default. If this does fail it's possible we could have just a clean debt ceiling increase like I've been wanting but I'm very doubtful such a thing will ever happen. This seems to be the deal that will pass.

Maybe someday voters will catch on that the GOP offers absolutely nothing useful in the way of sound economic or fiscal policy. Luckily our country is strong enough to survive recessions and depressions. We're a resilient people. It just doesn't have to be this way. We should be divorcing our abusive Republican spouses. Instead we're just giving them another chance to get drunk and beat on us again tomorrow night.

Posted by Adam Ducker at August 1, 2011 9:32 AM
Comments
Comment #326825

The Sun and the plants engaging in photosynthesis are really beginning to get worried too. Let’s see now: Production and distribution of wealth. Food as a commodity. Money as myth. Commodities capital - financial capital. I’m so confused.

Posted by: Stephen Hines at August 1, 2011 11:16 AM
Comment #326826

Adam,
Well said. Of course, we still need to see what happens in the House and what the final version looks like. If it looks like the deal currently being discussed, then it is a sad day for America.

Ever hear of David Frum? He is a bedrock conservative, and worked closely with Bush. I never, ever thought I would be in nearly total agreement with this guy. Here is a link to his article:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/08/01/frum.debt.republicans/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

What next? Will Karl Rove earnestly plead the case for clean politics and will I find myself nodding?

As many people have already observed, there is a terrible lesson here. A minority of the GOP can roll Obama by threatening to harm the country. Hostage taking works. Economic terrorism works.

There is no reason for the minority within the GOP to even consider compromising on its economic agenda- simply threaten to harm the country, and they will get most of what they want, with no consequences.

So, almost miraculously, the national political conversation gets refocused from the Ryan budget and the
GOP wanting to destroy Medicare to… the deficit, and deep spending cuts? What?! That’s political malpractice on the part of the Democrats and Obama. And this deal- No revenues? I mean, none? And whatever happened to the idea of creating jobs?

Well, there’s still hope this deal will be rejected, because it’s bad on so many levels- for the country, for the economy, for the Democratic Party- and perhaps this is premature; but it’s beginning to look like it’s time to congratulate the Tea Party Republicans.

As for the rest of us- too bad. It’s a virtual lock. It’s going to get even worse.

Posted by: phx8 at August 1, 2011 11:46 AM
Comment #326828

phx8 I was just about to post that David Frum article here — glad you put that up.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 1, 2011 12:04 PM
Comment #326829

Phx8: “There is no reason for the minority within the GOP to even consider compromising on its economic agenda- simply threaten to harm the country, and they will get most of what they want, with no consequences.”

Krugman pointed out the same today. He basically suggested it’s naive on the part of Democrats to think the sword hanging over the Democrats and Republicans in November over social spending and defense spending will keep the GOP from taking hostages again. The GOP will just stand it’s ground and the Democrats will be too scared to cut social or defense spending and give the GOP everything they want.

It’s sad watching the GOP move the goal posts so much that “compromise” means the Democrats decide not to let the country default by giving the Republicans everything they want. The Republicans have the nerve to come out against this compromise as if it doesn’t go far enough. Right. The American public lost again and they don’t know it.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at August 1, 2011 12:06 PM
Comment #326830

I just read the Frum article linked. Wow.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at August 1, 2011 12:13 PM
Comment #326831

TPM:

Progressives are furious. Conservatives are somewhat less furious. And for the most part all anybody knows about the budget plan is that it cuts a lot of spending over 10 years, and includes no guarantees that anybody — particularly the well-off — will pay more in taxes. Thus, the anger: after huge tax cuts for the rich, two unfunded wars, and a financial crisis triggered by Wall Street greed exploded budget deficits, the people asked to narrow the gap are overwhelmingly regular folks.

Amen to that. Preach it.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at August 1, 2011 12:18 PM
Comment #326832

An Open Letter to Middle Class Republicans:

I am an extremely wealthy U.S. venture capitalist and want to thank you for your help in making sure that I don’t have to pay any more in taxes. I really cant believe how willing you were to sacrifice so much just so I can have a little bit more money in my Swiss bank account. I didn’t realize your local economies were doing so well that you were wiling to be so generous as to take money out of your own wallets and give it to me.

I was getting a bit worried that you might raise my taxes to make sure that Medicare and Social Security would not only be solvent, but strong. I mean, after all, the money collected from me goes to the government and then makes it’s way out to your local community in the form of Social Security checks. Amazingly, these checks often get spent spent at your local grocery store or neighborhood shops and keeps your local economies strong and vibrant. I guess you prefer Switzerland over your own local community. Who can blame you though? My account is now just a bit heavier thanks to you.

Alas, I knew you’d come through for me in the end. Your argument that I would create jobs here in our country with your money was simply classic. I mean really, did you think I was going to hire American workers who want some semblance of a middle class existence when I can easily hire someone overseas who will do everything I say for a few dollars a day? Decent wages, workplace protections, and secure pensions are for losers anyway. What’s more, I bought air time on Fox News to promote lower taxes for people like me, but I didn’t really think you would fall so easily for it, especially when it will cost you in the long run. But hey, if your going to give it away to me I might as well take it! Especially when you actually go out and ARGUE for it to happen. Are you guys masochists or what?

Again, I want to say thank you. I know you guys will be OK because you are a resilient bunch and don’t mind making tough decisions like what college you can afford, or if you should cut cable in exchange for groceries. You know I haven’t really had to make those decisions, so I wouldn’t be very good at it.

Well, here’s to you middle class republicans. Keep up the good work and continue to argue on my behalf. Maybe someday you’ll be as wealthy as me. Although I highly doubt it, statistics tend to bear that out. Oh, and by the way, don’t let that liberal neighbor of yours try to convince you that you are shooting yourself in the foot and that you are hurting both you and him. You’re on OUR team. After all, he only makes as much money as you do. What a total loser.

Peace out suckers!

Posted by: C. Moneybags at August 1, 2011 12:47 PM
Comment #326833

I’m not sure why progressives are so down on this deal. The first trillion in cuts were common ground between the two parties and everything beyond that is open to negotiation. Instead of ad hoc sessions between disparate parties, a formal arrangement exists in which everyone has skin in the game. While Obama sacrificed a pawn in this confrontation, he effectively set the terms for the next confrontation. Republicans are going to be looking at an uncomfortable choice this holiday season when they have to choose between additional revenues or pulling the trigger on massive defense cuts.
All this rhetoric about negotiating with terrorists is silly. The economy and the American people are not hostages so long as elections, however unsatisfying the results, are held every two years. I thinks these debt negotiations are closer to a game of chess, where the group who can envision what the board will look like in x moves has the advantage.
While most anyone with an understanding of economics knows government spending during a recession is advantageous, it can not be maintained indefinitely. The country will wiggle its way out of the Great Recession, but fundamental structural problems will remain without finding solutions in the short term.

Posted by: carl at August 1, 2011 1:01 PM
Comment #326835

Carl: “I’m not sure why progressives are so down on this deal.”

My biggest concern is simply that the GOP will not care that defense spending is targeted for cuts. There has to be something the GOP is afraid to lose. They weren’t afraid to lose the Good Faith and Credit of the United States and they weren’t afraid of a second recession. Why should they be afraid of defense cuts they can just blame on Democrats?

Worse, there even has been talk of the GOP weakening that aspect of the bill. And they’re still not satisfied. Their only concern is whether what they do is what the Tea Party wants and how many political points against Obama and the Democrats they can score in the process. Both side’s do this in politics of course but only one side seems to do so while taking on such risk to the country.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at August 1, 2011 1:27 PM
Comment #326837

Damn those Tea Party type politicians for actually representing the people who elected them!

Posted by: kctim at August 1, 2011 1:41 PM
Comment #326838

Dear Middle Class Republicans,

Before I leave for on my private jet to Barbados for some much needed R & R I forgot to thank you for blaming your own neighbors and working class people like teachers, policeman, and firefighters for the debt problem. You surprised and delighted me with that one. I mean to think that you would actually point the finger at unions who fight for secure pensions and decent wages that benefit not only members, but all working class people like yourself was epic. I was laughing so hard on the way to the bank that I almost choked on my brie and caviar gold encrusted sandwich. As you were!

Posted by: C. Moneybags at August 1, 2011 2:00 PM
Comment #326839

Democrats are such pussies its embarrassing to be associated with them. NO TAX RISE ANYWHERE! Just a wimpy promise of a “commission” to study it. What BS.

Posted by: Aldous at August 1, 2011 2:04 PM
Comment #326840
Damn those Tea Party type politicians for actually representing the people who elected them!

No kctim, damn them for setting the country back a decade or more. Damn they for their false economics. Damn they as Frum said in the link posted by phx8 for “To threaten to blow up the free-enterprise system and wreck the republic unless they gained their point.” and damn them for being the one fourth of the party that held the rest of the country hostage.

Once again the dems leaders failed while the repub leaders led us into a double dip or worse. We need a none of the above on the ballot, that is what the next amendment to the Constitution should be about.

Posted by: j2t2 at August 1, 2011 2:14 PM
Comment #326841

TPM again:

Let me get this straight. The President kept revenues on the table, did not touch the sunset provisions in the Bush tax cuts, ensured that military cuts keep the GOP honest, protected Medicare by adding in only provider cuts in the trigger, made the reduction apparently enough to stave off a debt downgrade, got the debt ceiling raised, wounded Boehner by demonstrating to the world that he is controlled by the Tea Party caucus, took out the requirement that a BBA be passed and sent to the states and got the extension through 2012? What exactly is wrong with this deal?

I’m not sure I’m ready to see the silver linings on this crap cloud but maybe when we see how things play out down the road.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at August 1, 2011 2:15 PM
Comment #326842


C. Moneybags, free up capital to invest in merging markets rather than here.

Carl, “everything else is open to negotiations.” Do you mean negotiations Republican/tea party style negotiations where they demand capitulation or else.

Bring the troops home from Iraq, from Afghanistan, hey, Obama cut defence spending, now for some equal opportunity cuts in domestic programs and perhaps another tax break for the wealthier members of our society. The writing is on the wall for all to see.

Progressives have watched while their party politicians negotiated GLB which can be directly linked to the housing collapse. Progressives have watched while Democrats negotiated trade deals that have done serious damage to the people especially in the form of jobs. They watched while Democrats negotiated with Republicans to trash a balanced budget and a government surplus for tax breaks for the wealthy. They wanted a single payer health care plan that would cover all Americans in the most economical way, but they got Obama care which will save little and leave millions without coverage. Now progressives have watched as Obama the Democrats and even Republicans caved to a small but fanatical faction within the Republican party.

Time after time they get the same damn excuses, we will do better the next time. Now Obama is playing this as, I had to cave to save the country from the tea party, I am a hero and don’t worry, I’ll do better the next time if you all get over it and vote for me again.

We are getting pretty tired of ‘we will do better the next time.’ Two decades and counting.

How many presidents do better things in their second term?

IMO, it is time for progressives to cut their looses. Let the Republicans create their ‘kinder, gentler America. Let’s see how Americans like the tea party America.

Sometimes I get this stupid idea in my head that maybe the Democrats know what they are doing. That by forcing austerity on the poor and the middle class, the people will eventually come to their senses and demand a more sustainable, less consumptive economy. Then I look at Wall Street and the money flowing into Washington D.C. and I realize it was just a stupid notion.

Let us all join hands and sing a patriotic song to amuse our masters.

Posted by: jlw at August 1, 2011 2:23 PM
Comment #326843

jlw,

Thanks for the song. However, I charge a small fee for being entertained by the lowly masses.

Posted by: C. Moneybags at August 1, 2011 2:33 PM
Comment #326844

J2
Such are the consequences of being a representative Republic.
Sure, we could blindly continue our path to becoming a leftist majority rules democracy, where fear is used to ‘convince’ us that we should just sit down and shut up because they know what is best for us, but what good would that be?

Personally, I find it funny to watch the leftists get a taste of their own medicine for once.

Posted by: kctim at August 1, 2011 2:52 PM
Comment #326845

Simple question for “Moneybags”…who I believe is merely masquerading as wealthy. Reading his/her comments are amusing however. He/She sounds like some Hollywood elites, and mega wealthy dem politicians I have heard delivering the same bullshit.

Question: What economic system and which political party gets the credit for your supposed wealth?

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 1, 2011 2:59 PM
Comment #326846

Carl,
Why are progressives upset? I can’t speak for others, of course, but personally, I think Obama set a terrible precedent by caving in to economic terrorism. Normally, I dislike using terms like ‘economic terrorism’ because the word ‘terrorism’ is often used in over-the-top comparisons. The first time I heard this, I disliked it. Here we go again, more hyperbole. But after thinking about it, I realized it is absolutely accurate.

Terrorism is defined as a violent action taken against civilians in order to advance an agenda. It is a form of asymmetric warfare, waged by a minortiy against the more powerful majority. In this case, the Tea Party GOP waged economic terrorism against the Obama administration and the majority of Americans. They created a crisis by threatening to bring about a financial disaster upon the United States of America unless they got their way.

They succeeded (assuming they pass the deal in the House rather than shooting the hostage). There is not one penny of revenue increased, which is odd since we are, after all, discussing debt and deficits. The military reduction, brought about by ending two wars, is fake, and every knows it.

Take a wild guess what an evenly divided commission will do. Go on. Guess. Furthermore, if the Tea Party GOP has learned anything, it is that economic terrorism works.

I am still amazed that I agree almost completely with conservative David Frum, of all people. The End Days must be upon us!

Posted by: phx8 at August 1, 2011 3:06 PM
Comment #326847

Dear C. Moneybags

There is no reason to thank us at all.
You see, unlike leftists, we do not envy what you have accomplished so much that we are willing to treat you different than any other American citizen.
We believe in rule of law, not rule by emotion.
We believe you are entitled to what you have earned, not what others have earned.
We actually believe in choice. Such as having the choice to join a union or not. To choose your own form of health care and retirement.

Unlike leftists, we place our rights, and your rights, ahead of the almighty dollar.

So please, there is no need to think about us. We sure as hell aren’t thinking about you.

Posted by: kctim at August 1, 2011 3:07 PM
Comment #326848

Krugman: “a catastrophe on multiple levels”
The President Surrenders

Reich: “deal’s spending cuts increase the odds of a double-dip recession”
Ransome Paid

Posted by: Adrienne at August 1, 2011 3:14 PM
Comment #326849

kctim,

The only countries that have the US income/wealth distribution gap are South American Banana Republics.

Are you saying you want the US to become a banana republic?

Posted by: Aldous at August 1, 2011 3:14 PM
Comment #326850

kctim:

there is no need to think about us. We sure as hell aren’t thinking about you.

It’s perfectly obvious that Teahadists don’t really think about anything at all.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 1, 2011 3:38 PM
Comment #326851

Aldous

I am saying that many Americans believe rights trump money when it comes to true freedom and happiness.

A ‘banana republic’ is based on money and is usually ran by a dictatorship form of government. This dictator uses government to confiscate the fruits and labor of the people.

Seems to me that the way to becoming a ‘banana republic,’ is to keep allowing government to confiscate more and more from the people until the people are totally dependent on said government.

The gap is caused by government, not by freedoms.

Posted by: kctim at August 1, 2011 3:44 PM
Comment #326852

The liberal press has been using the words “hostage taking” and “terrorists” with great abandon today when referring to the actions in the house of representatives on the issue of increasing our debt limit.

With total disregard for our elected representatives, and no appreciation for the consequences of elections, they thrash and disparage the will of American voters being expressed by their representatives.

When cherished liberal political philosophy and desires for more government spending and greater tax revenues doesn’t happen, those standing in the way, the voters who elect our representatives, are dismissed as stupid, blind, uncaring, and undemocratic.

When obama was elected, and both houses of congress were held by dem/libs, the American voter was held in high regard and given great credit for their wisdom.

Now, in less than two years, the American voter has fallen from grace, and despised by those who just months ago were cheering them.

I refer to this as a mental disorder. What would you call it?

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 1, 2011 3:47 PM
Comment #326853

kctim,

Banana Republics are run run by the top 10% who own everything. The “government” is simply an extension of the will of the rich. That is what America is becoming if its not already.

The “Rights” you are talking about are only real to those who can afford it. The Rich are the only ones who have these “Freedoms” you talk about. The poor GOP peons who DON’T have money just hug their guns and mutter about having the “freedom” to bash gays and muslims.

Posted by: Aldous at August 1, 2011 3:53 PM
Comment #326854

Royal Flush,

“I refer to this as a mental disorder. What would you call it?”

I call it the effectiveness of Fox News and Talk Radio. Nothing beats the propaganda wing of the GOP.

Posted by: Aldous at August 1, 2011 3:55 PM
Comment #326855

Aldous has added another description of the American voter. In addition to “hostage taking” and “terrorist”, he adds that America voters were propagandized by Fox News and Talk Radio.

Again, I would say…mentally disordered thinking. Weren’t Fox News and Talk Radio present and functional when obama and dem majorities in both houses were elected?

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 1, 2011 4:02 PM
Comment #326857

phx8
I understand where you’re coming from, but none of us are really “civilians” when it comes to our economy. We are all, to one degree or another “combatants”. We actively take part in the daily buying and selling that constitutes our economic system.
That being said, I think the tea party is following an agenda that is extremely short sighted. I think Mr. Frum is also seeing the direction the tea party is taking the GOP and its giving him some amount of heartburn. Establishment Republican will not stand idly by as the Tea Party elements continue their no compromise, slash and burn economic vision. Beyond that, at some point they will have to actually identify the programs they want cuts to, and unfortunately NPR, Planned Parenthood, and foreign aid won’t fill the bucket. Abstract cuts to “big government” may be wildly popular, but when transformed into actual plans, such as the Ryan plan, support wanes.

Posted by: carl at August 1, 2011 4:11 PM
Comment #326860

kctm-

You do not envy me? Please! I made more money while writing this sentence than most Americans will make in there entire lifetimes.

C. Moneybags does not have to deal in that crazy world of “choices”. I do not need to choose between an HMO or A PPO for my children. Think about that the next time you or any loved one has to make that tough economic decision that may affect the success of a medical procedure.

Have fun trying to save for a secure retirement, too. As for me, I don’t need retirement. Trying to save for retirement is only for the commoners. I can live the rest of my life off the interest that I received from my tax breaks.


Now back to my world of choices. Should I order the new Gulfstream with the updated navi system or the Rolls with the soft lambskin seats? See you guys just don’t understand the tough choices I have to make.

Posted by: C. Moneybags at August 1, 2011 4:16 PM
Comment #326863

Royal Flush,

Its called lying. Something Repuglicans and Fox News are good at.


Below are the 21 claims Stewart referenced in his comedy bit — two “Lie of the Year” awardees, five Pants on Fires and 14 False ratings.

Here is the full list, with links to our original item, in the order in which Stewart named them.

Glenn Beck: Less than 10 percent of Obama’s Cabinet appointees “have any experience in the private sector.” — False (December 2, 2009)

Steve Doocy: White House Political Director Patrick Gaspard once served as the “right-hand man” for Bertha Lewis, who heads up ACORN. — False (September 30, 2009)

Gretchen Carlson: Says the Texas State Board of Education is considering eliminating references to Christmas and the Constitution in textbooks. — Pants on Fire! (March 12, 2010)

PolitiFact’s Lie of the Year: ‘A government takeover of health care’ (December 16, 2010)

Glenn Beck: The Muslim Brotherhood has “openly stated they want to declare war on Israel.” — False (February 15, 2011)

Karl Rove: “American troops have never been under the formal control of another nation.” — False (March 29, 2011)

Brian Kilmeade: Says Gov. Rick Scott’s approval ratings are up. — False (April 15, 2011)

Laura Ingraham: The Massachusetts health care plan is “wildly unpopular” among state residents. — False (May 16, 2011)

Sarah Palin: “Look at the debt that has been accumulated in the last two years. It’s more debt under this president than all those other presidents combined.” — False (June 1, 2011)

PolitiFact’s Lie of the Year: ‘Death panels’ (December 18, 2009)

Kimberly Guilfoyle: If you log into the government’s Cash for Clunkers Web site (cars.gov) from your home computer, the government can “seize all of your personal and private” information, and track your computer activity. — False (August 3, 2009)

Sarah Palin: “We’re going to be looking at $8 billion a day that we’re going to be pouring into foreign countries in order to import that make-up fuel that we’re going to need to take the place of what we could have gotten out of the gulf.” — Pants on Fire! (June 3, 2011)

Sarah Palin: “Democrats are poised now to cause this largest tax increase in U.S. history.” — Pants on Fire! (August 4, 2010)

Bill O’Reilly: “Attorney General Eric Holder is involved in the dismissal of the criminal charges” against the New Black Panther Party for voter intimidation — False (July 23, 2010)

Sarah Palin: “Barack Obama had 150 days in the U.S. Senate where he was able to vote quite often ‘present.’ ” — False (February 8, 2010)

Glenn Beck: John Holdren, director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, “has proposed forcing abortions and putting sterilants in the drinking water to control population.” — Pants on Fire! (July 29, 2009)

Glenn Beck: Labor union president Andy Stern is “the most frequent visitor” at the White House. — False (December 7, 2009)

Glenn Beck: “Why do we have automatic citizenship upon birth? We’re the only country in the world that has it.” — False (June 19, 2009)

Bill O’Reilly: Says he didn’t call Dr. George Tiller a baby killer, as liberal groups charge, but was merely reporting what “some prolifers branded him.” — False (June 5, 2009)

Bill O’Reilly: When White House communications director Anita Dunn said that Mao Tse-tung was “one of her favorite philosophers, only Fox News picked that up.” — False (October 27, 2009)

Bill O’Reilly: “We researched to find out if anybody on Fox News had ever said you’re going to jail if you don’t buy health insurance. Nobody’s ever said it.” — Pants on Fire! (April 27, 2010)

Posted by: Aldous at August 1, 2011 4:35 PM
Comment #326864

Should I order the new Gulfstream with the updated navi system or the Rolls with the soft lambskin seats?
Posted by: C. Moneybags at August 1, 2011 04:16 PM

What…such poverty is lamentable. Why not buy both. Thanks for the laughs. My wealthy friends and I never talk the way you do. Sprinkle some more fairy dust on us please.

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 1, 2011 4:37 PM
Comment #326865

Aldous

Sigh.
It doesn’t matter if the government is an extension of the rich or an extension of leftists, it is still government stealing from its people. They both use that money to buy support.

“The “Rights” you are talking about are only real to those who can afford it.”

What part of ‘value rights more than money’ do you not understand?

“The poor GOP peons who DON’T have money just hug their guns and mutter about having the “freedom” to bash gays and muslims.”

Hmmmm?
As nobody has a Constitutional right to phyically “bash” somebody else, you must mean “bash” in the verbal sense, which is a protected right under the 1st Amendment of the Bill of Rights.
The 2nd Amendment of the Bill of Rights protects the peoples right to keep and bear arms, which covers hugging.

Now, lets see. Poor person with no money who is happy because he is is able to excercise his 1st and 2nd Amendment rights.
Sounds like he values his rights more than your money.

Tell me Al, seeing how I have shown you how and why a free person would value anothers rights over anothers money, could you show me how a person can value anothers money over anothers rights and still claim that person to be free?

Posted by: kctim at August 1, 2011 4:40 PM
Comment #326866
Sure, we could blindly continue our path to becoming a leftist majority rules democracy, where fear is used to ‘convince’ us that we should just sit down and shut up because they know what is best for us, but what good would that be?

kctim the only fear mongering we have seen lately was the extremist right tea bags telling us the debt was gonna destroy the country. The only “sit down and shut up” I have seen lately is from the same far right extremist that insisted on holding the country hostage. I do believe you are projecting kctim.

Posted by: j2t2 at August 1, 2011 4:45 PM
Comment #326869

Republicans won their largest victory in the house elections of 2010 since 1946. That victory came from the American voter. To now call those whom the voters preferred despicable names is disgusting.

If we look at the dem controlled senate, we find a body that has been unable to produce a budget for over two years. That too is disgusting.

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 1, 2011 5:08 PM
Comment #326870

C. Moneybags

Nope. I do not envy financial wealth at all. I do not care if you made a million or a billion writing that sentence because it is the freedom to write what you please, that I cherish.

You are in luck. I am actually going through some very serious medical issues concerning my health. Fear not though, because I took the responsibility about such a tough economic decision a long time ago and all is going well.

I am very glad to hear that you are set for life and it is great that you will not be a burden on society. You will be happy to know that I too will not be a burden on society when I retire. I may not have the perks you will have, but I am not a materialistic person, so I will be fine.

I had almost the same problem with my world of choices. I could buy the latest and greatest electronic gizmo or I could save for my future. I could drink a $6 latte or save for my future.
You know, it actually wasn’t really a problem, I chose to save you know. Oh, and guess what? By choosing to save, I also prevented another problem from occuring in the future.

You know what I do like about your Moneybags? The fact that you do not pretend to care, as people on the left do. You know how people “say” they care about the poor, but yet they spend $20+ a month on internet fees to complain about how others won’t help them? How a Ketchup king will say he cares about the hungry and homeless, but yet eats a seven course meal every night and owns multiple houses?

Ah, who am I kidding. You know exactly what hypocrits I am talking about. I am sure you deal with them on a daily basis.

Posted by: kctim at August 1, 2011 5:16 PM
Comment #326872

J2
Projecting? Does ‘won’t get their SS checks’ sound familiar? How about ‘economic collapse if we don’t raise the debt ceiling?’ ‘Economic terrorists?’ Does ‘setting the country back a decade,’ ‘holding the country hostage’ or ‘double dip or worse,’ ring a bell?

No, I am not projecting at all J2. Just stating facts the same way I did prior to the Y2K and Myan doom and gloom.

Posted by: kctim at August 1, 2011 5:26 PM
Comment #326873

“It’s perfectly obvious that Teahadists don’t really think about anything at all”

Or else they could come up with cute little childish names like “Teahadists” in order to avoid the truth, right?

Posted by: kctim at August 1, 2011 5:31 PM
Comment #326874
You know how people “say” they care about the poor, but yet they spend $20+ a month on internet fees to complain about how others won’t help them?

This is such an idiotic comment. These days most people have to have an internet connection in order to both find a job, apply for jobs, and to perform their jobs.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 1, 2011 5:33 PM
Comment #326875
childish names like “Teahadists”

Since these people support economic terrorism it fits perfectly.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 1, 2011 5:36 PM
Comment #326876

Progressive Caucus Co-Chairs Oppose Deficit Deal

Posted by: Adrienne at August 1, 2011 5:57 PM
Comment #326877
Projecting?

Yep projecting.

Does ‘won’t get their SS checks’ sound familiar? How about ‘economic collapse if we don’t raise the debt ceiling?’ ‘Economic terrorists?’ Does ‘setting the country back a decade,’ ‘holding the country hostage’ or ‘double dip or worse,’ ring a bell?

Yes it does kctim. but the difference is the whole quote fir the SS checks had the words “I cannot guarantee” which if we would have defaulted was true, as was “economic collapse” …but instead of going through each and every one kctim just read the link to Frum above. The tea bags have put their lust to oust Obama above the good of the country. Heck Bin Laden who was aiming at the financial center of this country yet didn’t do as much damage as the tea bags so yes economic terrorist is a fairly accurate description of the extreme right in this country.

But rather than this he said she said stuff, why on earth would you guys that “believe in rule of law, not rule by emotion” think the solution is to have a gang of 12 members of Congress determine the hard stuff. Evidently you don’t believe in representative democracy. The “super congress” will not make the issues transparent they will hide our elected representatives from doing the work of the people.

Posted by: j2t2 at August 1, 2011 6:13 PM
Comment #326878

“There is not one penny of revenue increased, which is odd since we are, after all, discussing debt and deficits.”

phx8,

Well, that is a tricky issue. I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that the baseline scoring assumes that the Bush tax cuts will expire in their entirety in January of 2013 as required under current law. Republicans have conveniently determined, now, that such an increase is no longer a true tax increase. The issue, then, is tax increases above and beyond the restoration of the Bush tax cuts.

So, whatever eventually happens, get ready for a major whack on the US economy as both the expenditure cuts and tax increases (Bush tax cut expiration) take effect.


Posted by: Rich at August 1, 2011 6:24 PM
Comment #326879

What is missing in this debate is any discussion of the economy. It is the key factor in determining the near term deficit. But, hey, it is a lot easier to simply play with budget numbers than to tackle the real issue facing the American public.

The other missing discussion is health care inflation. It is the key factor in the long term deficit problem (Medicare). But, again, it is a lot easier to balance the numbers with cuts than to address the real problem.

Posted by: Rich at August 1, 2011 6:37 PM
Comment #326880

Well, the bill passed in the house by quite a large margin. Just reading the little (not much in detail available yet) about the bill that I can find, I don’t think the Reps/Cons can declare any kind of victory. It certainly doesn’t satisfy me. Yet, it does give me hope that maybe, just maybe, we may be starting to get some sense of fiscal sanity in our political leaders.

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 1, 2011 7:42 PM
Comment #326883

Statement from Rep. Jerry Nadler:

“Defaulting on our debts is not an option. That’s why I voted for a clean debt ceiling increase, free from the unnecessary clutter of budgetary or other non-related matters. And that’s why I voted for Senator Reid’s plan this past Saturday, though parts of that plan were excessive and imbalanced. I am also the lead sponsor on a resolution to support the president’s use of Article 2, Section 3 of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution to raise the debt ceiling – solely as a last resort. But this so-called compromise – “the Budget Control Act” – is just the latest blackmail request from extortionist Republicans.

“This legislation lays out an unbalanced, callous plan that will strangle the middle class and working poor, to say nothing of the elderly and kids. These blackmailers are telling the American people, ‘either you will accept deep cuts to vital programs that support seniors, students, children, women, and the poor, or we will force this nation to default on its debts’ – an unprecedented and reckless move that would lead to skyrocketing interest rates on mortgages, credit cards, student loans, and the like. So, either we stifle our economy and stymie job growth, or we kill the middle class and stymie job growth.

“Shockingly, while Republicans are holding us all hostage, telling us our country is broke and we have to cut programs that are lifelines to millions of Americans, they are letting the wealthiest among us – the corporations, millionaires, billionaires, and oil companies – off scot-free, without doing their fair share.
“This proposal is exactly the wrong thing at exactly the wrong time. With our economy still struggling and gasping for air, with more and more Americans looking for jobs, we should be promoting job growth and those federal and state programs that put people to work. But, instead of doing the things Americans do best – that is, building things and creating opportunity – Tea Partiers want to send this country over the cliff.

As for the 90 DINO’s who actually voted for this bill — they all need to lose their jobs.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 1, 2011 9:34 PM
Comment #326885

Rich,
I’ve seen several versions already of what will happen with the Bush tax cuts and revenues in general. Each side seems to think the commission will favor it. I think it is transparently obvious that the commission will be put in place to do things no politician wants to be held responsible for doing. It’s yet another abdication. Uncertainty about what is actually in the bill is still out there too, and the Senate will get a whack at it tomorrow.

Posted by: phx8 at August 1, 2011 11:10 PM
Comment #326886
As for the 90 DINO’s who actually voted for this bill — they all need to lose their jobs.

Whoa! From what I read, the DoD is finally going to receive its share of cuts, which I think is quite an accomplishment. Despite its flaws, this was the best the Democrats were going to get due to the extremely firm line taken by the GOP. Any remedies involving the 14th amendment or platinum coins would only make the situation worse; the GOP still controls the purse strings for the FY2012 budget. Lastly, the ‘01 & ‘03 tax cuts will finally expire in December 2012. Republicans can’t extend them without 60 votes in the Senate as well as Obama’s Signature. Given the fact that Republicans like the hostage game so much, I’m sure they’ll love to play it again.

BTW, this means you think Rep Giffords should lose her seat.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 1, 2011 11:12 PM
Comment #326887

Warped,
Obama brought every bit of this debacle on himself by assuming the GOP would choose to act like adults. It was idiotic to do so because he knows damn well that they haven’t acted like adults since the day he was inaugurated. The fact is, NONE of this HAD to happen. Obama simply doesn’t know how to lead.
Btw, have you heard that the proposed defense spending caps in this legislation will not apply to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? Yeah.

And yes indeed, Rep. Giffords should lose her seat over this vote. Just because we’re all sorry she was shot doesn’t mean she gets a pass for voting yes on this. Every single one the DINO’s who voted for this piece of sh*t should lose their seats.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 1, 2011 11:52 PM
Comment #326888

Adrienne,
Amen. I’d boot Giffords in a New York minute.

Warped,
Why should the GOP even consider for a moment NOT threatening the country? It gets them what they want. And I can think of several ways around cutting defense. That’s not even challenging.

Posted by: phx8 at August 2, 2011 12:01 AM
Comment #326889
have you heard that the proposed defense spending caps in this legislation will not apply to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?

It’s actually the spending outside of those conflicts that worries me the most. In any case, at this point winding down our commitments in Afghanistan and Iraq is virtually inevitable.

Obama brought every bit of this debacle on himself by assuming the GOP would choose to act like adults. It was idiotic to do so because he knows damn well that they haven’t acted like adults since the day he was inaugurated. The fact is, NONE of this HAD to happen. Obama simply doesn’t know how to lead.

You are mistaken if you think Obama doesn’t want to cut our budget. In fact, this debate has shown that he’s practically the only one in DC with the balls to solve our fiscal woes. If Obama used platinum coins or the fourteenth amendment, there’s a good chance he would’ve won this particular battle, but Obama’s smart enough to recognize that such an outcome would be bad for our nation and would only represent a Pyrrhic victory.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 2, 2011 12:37 AM
Comment #326890

Warped,
Face it. Obama has failed as a leader.

There is zero chance- ZERO- of solving current economic problems by cutting spending. There is no chance. None. Nada. Zip. Uh-uh. Ain’t gonna happen. In fact, it is certain to slow the economy even further. And guess what slowing the economy does? It makes deficits worse.

The best way out of a bad economy is to grow, to create jobs, and that’s not even on the table.

Why has Obama failed? In part, it is because he accepted the economic ‘free trade’ vision of Geithner and Larry Summers. In part, it is because he wants to compromise. He imagines the GOP wants the country to do well. What he does not understand is that the GOP wants Obama to fail at all costs, and that includes VERY INTENTIONALLY harming the economy of the country.

And now, again, the GOP has been incentivized to continue this behavior. Shame on them for such despicable behavior. Shame on Obama for refusing to stand up to it.

Posted by: phx8 at August 2, 2011 12:52 AM
Comment #326891

Warped,
Sorry, but I’m not an Obamabot. I can’t and won’t cheerlead a disaster of this enormous magnitude. I think it’s very clear that Obama is not a good political chess player and that he and his economic team don’t know what they’re doing. Krugman and Reich don’t think so either. Meanwhile those two economists have been right all along about the economy, and Obama has been dead wrong.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 2, 2011 12:56 AM
Comment #326892

phx8, well said.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 2, 2011 1:00 AM
Comment #326893
There is zero chance- ZERO- of solving current economic problems by cutting spending. There is no chance. None. Nada. Zip. Uh-uh. Ain’t gonna happen. In fact, it is certain to slow the economy even further. And guess what slowing the economy does? It makes deficits worse.

The best way out of a bad economy is to grow, to create jobs, and that’s not even on the table.

There’s zero chance of solving our economic problems as long as the GOP controls the house. I’m considering it inevitable that we encounter a double dip recession at this point. I think the only thing I can hope for is a change in our long-term trajectory, which means cutting spending. The economic downturn has created unique circumstances that have allowed us to tolerate such a high debt-to-gdp ratio, but that won’t last forever. You and Adrienne are thinking too much about the short term. Face it, the GOP is going to take hostages whenever they get the chance; if not the debt ceiling, then it will be next year’s appropriations. At least we get a chance that defense and entitlements will share some of the burden instead of “non-defense discretionary spending” which is the GOP’s favorite place for politically expedient cuts.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 2, 2011 1:16 AM
Comment #326894

Warped,
There will be an ‘emergency’ involving national defence that will be created when necessary. Spending will simply be declared off-budget in order to make sure no real cuts happen.

I really didn’t think we’d go into a double-dip recession. A lot of economic indicators were turning north. I’m still hoping against hope that the economy will be resilient enough to overcome the Tea Party death threats. However, these spending cuts will give the economy a whack on the head. And it will be immediate. Cutting spending during a slowed economy has already been tried elsewhere and it has already failed in countries like Great Britain. Cutting spending re-tanked the economy in 1937. In a way, it’s understandable. When debts and deficits mount during a slowdown, it seems reasonable to want to cut spending, because that seems like a good way to cut the debts and deficits. Unfortunately, that is precisely the wrong move during a slow economy.

Today, we seem incapable of addressing the problem. To be sure, the GOP deserves much of the blame. A bad economy is good for their political fortunes. That is why they have done NOTHING to address job issues, literally nothing, and instead, have actually cut jobs. Nevertheless, Obama has the bully pulpit. He has Reid, Pelosi, and the Senate. But he has to be willing to lead. There are many styles of leadership, and whether Obama wants it or not, he is being given a situation that requires him to confront. He’s not being given a choice. Compromising and backing down simply encourage the GOP to push harder and harder, to become more and more extreme, and more and more outrageous with their demands. He must take a stand. He must confront. And he has not. That is failure. And that saddens me, because that is a failure for all of us, liberal and conservative alike.

Posted by: phx8 at August 2, 2011 2:23 AM
Comment #326895

warped

“Lastly, the ‘01 & ‘03 tax cuts will finally expire in December 2012. Republicans can’t extend them without 60 votes in the Senate as well as Obama’s Signature.”


they may need 60 votes in the senate, but they won’t need obamas signature in 2013. that is unless they send the bill to chicago. otherwise the newly elected president will be happy to sign it, and make it permanent.

Posted by: dbs at August 2, 2011 5:41 AM
Comment #326896

phx8,

I am not so sure the game is entirely over. The Republicans may have been too clever by half in their extortion demands.

It will now become increasingly clear what the conservative agenda means for the American public and the economy. Up until recently, the Republicans have simply attempted to block and distort any and all legislative initiatives of the Obama administration with the intent of letting Obama own the economy, health care cost escalation, deficits, etc. They have been disciplined in avoiding any proposals of their own. This all changed with the tea party influence forcing confrontation on the budget and deficits. Their first attempt with the Ryan budget was an abject failure. I suspect that this debt ceiling deal will eventually suffer the same fate.

It is interesting that the front runners in the Republican primary race, with the exception of Bachman, have been silent on the issue. That signals to me that they see a potential bear trap in the making for next year’s fall presidential campaign.

In a strange way, I am grateful for the actions of the extreme conservatives. It has cleared the decks for action on economic, social and health care priorities. The public will now have a true choice. No more vague allegations, no more vague policy positions. No more, its all Obama’s fault.

Progressives fault Obama for not standing on principle. However, when your dealing with a hostage taker, do you really want the hostage shot in the name of principle? Obama and the Democrats surely paid a ransom but succeeded in deferring the majority of the ransom decisions to another day under more favorable conditions. It is now time for Obama to articulate a principled policy position going forward and recognize that he is not dealing with an adversary willing to compromise.

Posted by: Rich at August 2, 2011 7:27 AM
Comment #326897

dbs,

The debt ceiling deal agreed to by both parties uses current law as the baseline for budget assessments. Current law provides for expiration of all the Bush tax cuts in December of 2012. Implicitly, the Republicans have agreed to expiration of the Bush tax cuts across the board. This is why Republicans no longer characterize the expiration of the Bush tax cuts as tax increases. They seem to have boxed themselves into a corner on this issue.

Posted by: Rich at August 2, 2011 7:42 AM
Comment #326898

You are forgetting two things, Rich, when you say:

It is interesting that the front runners in the Republican primary race, with the exception of Bachman, have been silent on the issue. That signals to me that they see a potential bear trap in the making for next year’s fall presidential campaign.

Truth and Honesty. To think the conservative propaganda machine has any intention of using truthful and/or honest facts when it comes campaign time is just wrong. That is the advantage they have over people like Krugman and Reich and the dems in general. They are not bothered by misinformation half truths or outright lies. The conservative movement followers feed upon misinformation half truths and outright lies. The dems cannot compete with the conservative propaganda machine.

Posted by: j2t2 at August 2, 2011 8:32 AM
Comment #326900

J2
Fear mongering for votes usually has some little qualifier like “I cannot guarantee.” Helps insulate oneself when the ‘horror’ does not pan out.

I do not support the super congress idea. Hopefully the only thing to come from it will be gridlock.

Posted by: kctim at August 2, 2011 9:00 AM
Comment #326901

“Every single one the DINO’s who voted for this piece of sh*t should lose their seats”

Ok Adrienne, let’s be serious.

How is it that the progressives are saints for not wanting to compromise, but Tea Party reps are ‘terrorists’ for not wanting to compromise?

Why should Democrats lose their seats for not falling in lockstep with progressives? Many such as Blanche Lincoln did that with the HCR bill and they were voted out of office and replaced with a Republican. Are you really saying that you prefer a Republican over a moderate Dem?

What is so wrong with a having a rep that represents your views? Would you want a progressive rep to go against your views and vote conservative?

Posted by: kctim at August 2, 2011 9:29 AM
Comment #326902

kctim, it seems there may be a couple of things in play here.
First of all it seems the difference between the “fear mongering” is the extremist on the right do not use such qualifiers as “I cannot guarantee” as those on the left tend to. IMHO it separates the fear mongering from the factual.

http://bsalert.com/news/2497/Jon_Stewart_Dissects_Conservative_Fearmongering_In_The_Media.html

Secondly it seems many conservatives scare more easily when told to be scared.

Conservatives Scare More Easily Than Liberals, Say Scientists
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/09/fearmongering-h/

Posted by: j2t2 at August 2, 2011 9:58 AM
Comment #326903

Adrienne quotes REP Nadler; “That’s why I voted for a clean debt ceiling increase, free from the unnecessary clutter of budgetary or other non-related matters.”

Very interesting. I could compare that to going to my bank and asking for a $1 million loan. And Mr. Banker, please don’t include that “unnecessary clutter” of requiring proof that I can pay it back, the schedule of repayment I plan, or how I intend to spend it. That’s really none of your business.

Another quote from Nadler…”Tea Partiers want to send this country over the cliff.”

The country is already racing towards the cliff drop off at 100 miles per hour. This bill doesn’t slow the race to the cliff down, it merely places the car on cruise control.


Posted by: Royal Flush at August 2, 2011 1:08 PM
Comment #326910

kctim:

How is it that the progressives are saints for not wanting to compromise, but Tea Party reps are ‘terrorists’ for not wanting to compromise?

Go ahead and use a BS snarky-ass term like “saint” when you speak of what progressives want, but lets first define exactly WHY what the GOP is doing is economic terrorism, shall we?

Let’s start with the fact that he GOP ran up 75 percent of this nation’s debt since 2000. They slashed taxes on the wealthy while spending like crazy — spending far more than the the nation was taking in as revenues, and thereby accumulated a horrendous deficit. They raised the debt ceiling seven times during the Bush years because it was acceptable to ignore the loss of revenue and push off for the future the idea that they were incurring insane amounts of debt when a Republican was in office. Meanwhile, the war in Afghanistan and the completely unnecessary and illegal Iraq war that they lied us into also swelled the deficit.
In the last decade, the U.S. has spent over one trillion dollars on these two wars, and the tax cuts Bush gave the wealthy in 2001 and 2003 limited the amount of taxes that could be taken in. Those tax cuts were supposed to “create jobs” according to their utterly failed “trickle down” theory. But it didn’t work, just like it has never worked in the past. They also ignored the rising costs of health care for everyone, but did create Medicare part D — a program that didn’t even try to negotiate for lower prescription costs and which has wound up costing $49.3 billion.

Additionally, with GOP leadership over the economy, and after years of deregulation all across the insurance and financial landscape that THEY insisted upon and were the major drivers of, this nation was made to suffer a severe contraction of the economy at the end of Bush’s second term in 2008. With the private-financial segment of the U.S. economy and the large transnational banks facing collapse due to gigantic losses on their unsustainable loans, they couldn’t raise capital, and were unwilling to lend to others, there were mergers and consolidations at the top tiers of the private banking sector as the bubble that they created finally burst.
Yet those top tiers were actually in trouble too, and suddenly the tax payer had to bail out them out because they were “too big to fail”. Thus, the TARP injected huge amounts of capital into the banking system — we became their creditors with low-interest loans — making it possible for Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America and Citigroup to profitably incorporate and buy out the assets of banks that had failed or were failing.

Now the GOP speaks as though they had nothing to do with the mess we’re in, and some within the GOP and the radical right tea bagger crowd actually think it’s okay to refuse to underwrite all the past budgetary deficits that THEY ran up if social spending isn’t immediately slashed to their liking.

By 2009, all this crap caused by the (GOP sanctioned) self-created financial crisis developed into a generalized economic downturn affecting the whole world’s economy — the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. The amount of trade between countries fell steeply, industrial output fell all over the world, our economy slowed down and unemployment shot up.

Obama’s response was to undertake a stimulus that involved govt. expenditures on goods and services, energy and infrastructure projects, some tax credits and unemployment extensions, and offers of financial assistance to states that were cash strapped. This was supposed to stimulate major economic growth but because it wasn’t large enough and didn’t go far enough, it didn’t really work. And because it didn’t work we’ve seen a further decline in government revenue.
He also stupidly widened the unwinnable war in Afghanistan which currently costs the nation about $2 billion per month. What began as unpaid-for wars, and a banking crisis (self inflicted and designed to push risks on to others) has turned into a long-term government debt crisis and serious economic problem for our economy — not to mention for the world’s economy at large.
Also Obama, with the help of the Blue Dog Dems in Congress produced a mandated health care bill that only helps the insurance industry and the health providers rather than an efficient and cost effective single payer system for everyone.

So, no one, including the government, can afford the ever rising cost of health care and the insanely expensive wars continue — opportunities lost to save money. And, nothing has been done about the Banksters and the crimes they committed. Nothing. The people of this nation were robbed, and the people of other nations were also robbed, and although we know who exactly who did this to all of us, no one went to jail. No interest was even collected from saving their criminal asses from bankruptcy. No regulations to protect us from their current or future criminal activities were put into place. Wall Street rolls on as though nothing happened — right over the needs of the people.

Blue Dog Democratic and Republican politicians seem fine with this being the case — Progressives aren’t.

Before I move on here, let’s also look at something else: The 2012 budget. Military outlays amount to about $700 billion - not including military-security costs. If we add those in, we’re talking about $1.2 trillion or nearly 40 percent of the budget. And that’s not even adding in the costs run up by what the military is doing in Libya (or in Pakistan) right now, or paying down debt from past wars. It also doesn’t include weapons and nuclear research, or the CIA or the NSA.

Thus, if we want to talk seriously and look at what has got to give, we need to go after the financial industry, and start cleaning house when it comes to the military expenses. But no, what we’re told social spending is the problem and that “we all have to equally sacrifice for the greater good of the country.”

Progressives know that none of what politicians in Washington are doing is truly in the interests of the people. That in fact THEY are defaulting on the debt they owe to We the People — and that they are refusing to address the actual problems that have caused every bit of our insane deficit!

Health care costs have not been addressed. The wealthy and the corporations haven’t been made to pay their fair share of taxes. The financial industry hasn’t been punished or curbed in any way. The wars have not ended, and the expenses of the entire military industrial complex can only continue to crush us.

But we’re told the debt is collectively “our problem” — as they begin an unprecedented attack on social spending. Gutting things like education and health care and so-called entitlement programs, like Social Security and Medicare that we’ve already paid for — behind closed doors with a “Super Congress”.
And they are doing this at a time when approximately 1 in 6 workers is unemployed, under-employed, or no longer looking for jobs because there aren’t any. At a time when people stay on unemployment longer than they have at any time since the end of the Second World War. At a time the number of unemployed is starting to reach a level that this nation hasn’t seen since the Great Depression — yet that isn’t talked about; instead these folks are treated like they don’t exist. At a time when the sub prime mortgage crisis of insane speculation robbed millions of people out of their savings and future earnings and threw them out of their homes. At a time when millions of people are still facing foreclosure. At a time when kids are dropping out of college because the costs are too high. At a time when income inequality is the same as that of the Gilded Age.

But somehow We the People are still “not doing enough of our share” so social spending must be slashed on anything that protects or helps the already poor or the newly unemployed poor. Public education, public housing, public mass transit, environmental protection and the social health and safety net we’ve already paid for every day of our working lives must be slashed.

It’s nothing but horsesh*t.

The GOP and their entire tea bagger contingent, as well as the Blue Dog Democrats (who are currently the majority of Democrats) all claim to have a problem regarding “big government” but this is nothing but ideological grandstanding and malarky. The GOP and the Blue Dog segment of the Democrats love big government when it comes to the military, and when it comes to their ability to funnel vast amounts of our tax payer dollars to their crony capitalist buddies with big ass government contracts, or look the other way when the financial industry pulls scam after scam because they get huge campaign donations from those criminals. What they really hate is the idea that representative government should be expected to feel an obligation towards building a society that is responsible to the needs and well-being of We the People.
That’s what Progressives want and we’re tired of being told that we’re “fringe radicals” or “saints” because of it.

Why should Democrats lose their seats for not falling in lockstep with progressives? Many such as Blanche Lincoln did that with the HCR bill and they were voted out of office and replaced with a Republican. Are you really saying that you prefer a Republican over a moderate Dem?

No. I’m a Progressive. So naturally I’d like to see those seats filled with Progressives.

What is so wrong with a having a rep that represents your views?

The problem is that there are too few representing progressive views.

Would you want a progressive rep to go against your views and vote conservative?

No. There are already too many Blue Dog DINO’s doing exactly that.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 2, 2011 5:06 PM
Comment #326916

Adrienne laments…”The problem is that there are too few representing progressive views.”

There is a reason for that, their views are not popular with the electorate. Conservative views took back the house in 2010. Conservative views will take back the senate and presidency in 2012.

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 2, 2011 6:34 PM
Comment #326919

RF,
Yeah I guess we’ll see — however the GOP’s zeal to kill off social programs and hurt the already struggling poor and middle class might not be quite as popular with the electorate as you seem to think though. Take Wisconsin for example. Or Florida.
Then again and as always, the GOP might get some help from their friends at Diebold, or from sitting elections officials like Katherine Harris or Ken Blackwell, or from county clerks like Kathy Nicolaus, etc, etc…

Posted by: Adrienne at August 2, 2011 7:02 PM
Comment #326921

Not to mention the GOP’s own assault on voters Adrienne.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2011-06-12-Republican-ID-laws-smack-of-vote-suppression_n.htm

Posted by: j2t2 at August 2, 2011 7:33 PM
Comment #326926

Talk sher is cheep nowadays. Anybody kin sit down to a chomputer and just tickle da keys like playin’ a peeana and see what comes out. Reminds me of my pa and me walkin mongst the cows. That is what ole Teddy R. was sayin’ speek softly and carry a big shick. That was to clean the cow paddies ofa yer shoes.

Posted by: tom humes at August 2, 2011 9:24 PM
Comment #326927

Definitely that too, j2!

Posted by: Adrienne at August 2, 2011 9:25 PM
Comment #326934

With all due respect to my friends on the left here, I do not think it’s appropriate to blame the Democrats for this, to say that they were weak. The Democrats were voted out of the majority in the House, and a group of political zealots were voted in who have been so divisive in their politics, that even the short-term victories on the Republican’s parts have been voted against. These are people so partisan, they can’t even compromise with their own party.

Yet compromise we must in order to run a government. That’s not me talking, that’s the constitution talking, with its separation of powers, it’s division of them between the House and Senate on the Legislative side.

This crisis came about because the Republican Party refused to make a routine vote, and held it hostage to get what they wanted. Arguably, the Democrats made mistakes in the negotiations, but the mistake of the last year’s worth of pointless, economically destructive brinksmanship is entirely the result of Republican political strategy.

Or, put another way, do you think this past episode would have ever happened with a Democratic majority in place? Democrats in Washington, for all their flaws, do not play destructive games with this nation’s future. When they tell people they’re going to create jobs, they don’t use their majority to risk massive depressions in order to pass job-killing austerity measures over everybody else’s objections.

The Republicans deserve to regret these little political adventures they have. There is a constitutional way to prevent folks who have lost their minds from governing. Win back the majority from them.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 3, 2011 8:53 AM
Comment #326936

Stephen, your democrat majority could not even pass a budget. From what you just said that is double speak. The other guys yes, our guys no. What is your point? Your democrats were every bit a part of this situation, even tho you can’t see thru your blinders.

“Democrats in Washington, for all their flaws, do not play destructive games with this nation’s future.”

Surely you jest. That’s ok, I’ll laugh along with you. HaHaHa, TeeHee. There I’m done. Actually that is an ignorant remark.

“When they tell people they’re going to create jobs, they don’t use their majority to risk massive depressions in order to pass job-killing austerity measures over everybody else’s objections.”

But that is exactly what they did with Obama’s joke about shovel ready jobs. They are responsible for even more people out of work with their fiscal irresponsibility and you use the word “austerity”. The KOS addiction has really got a hold on you. This whole approach from the left and the media has not a single original thought. The use of language like “terrorist” to describe some one who opposes another, yet in a real act of terrorism, they don’t go that far. Typical of the left.

I understand your fear that the left is losing it; it meaning everything. The election, the approval of the public, the sanity of doing anything American in congress. Face up to it, you are on a downward spiral into the abyss.

Posted by: tom humes at August 3, 2011 9:44 AM
Comment #326937

“RF,
Yeah I guess we’ll see — however the GOP’s zeal to kill off social programs and hurt the already struggling poor and middle class might not be quite as popular with the electorate as you seem to think though. Take Wisconsin for example.”

Posted by: Adrienne at August 2, 2011 07:02 PM

I wonder how the Wisconsin people feel about jobs created in Wisconsin higher than the jobs created in the whole US by Obama?

While Nation Sputters on Jobs, Wisconsin Economy Begins to Hum:

[Madison, Wisc…] Earlier this month, analysts were dismayed by the nation’s anemic job creation numbers. On Thursday, state officials were pleased as they released data that showed more than half of the net new jobs added in the US in June came from Wisconsin.

“We have made difficult decisions in our state, but they are beginning to payoff,” said Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker (R). “The national job figures remind us that we can not rest after one month of good news; while there will be ups and downs along the way, we must help lead the nation to recovery.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/272444/wisconsin-creates-13000-private-sector-jobs-christian-schneider

“Walker noted that job growth in Wisconsin effectively accounted for about half of the new jobs in the nation in June, an abysmal month for job creation.

The state had a net total of 9,500 new jobs in the month, because a decline in government employment offset some of the gains in the private sector. Nationally, Walker said, 18,000 new jobs were created last month - 57,000 gained in the private sector minus a drop of 39,000 in government payrolls.”


http://www.jsonline.com/business/125961833.html

Obama only dreams of this kind of success; bt the question is, what is Walker doing that is different from Obama?

Posted by: Phil at August 3, 2011 9:53 AM
Comment #326938

Adrienne
First off, thank you for a well thought out argument.

You do realize that most of the Tea Party types were elected because they too were concerned with all the spending the GOP was doing? That they agree there should be spending cuts with the tax cuts? That is why I specifically asked about Tea Party types, not the GOP.

No politician with a brain is going to cut defense in a time of war, so complaining about that is a non-starter. So, with that fact in mind, what do you think would have happened if President Bush would have added spending cuts to his tax cut policy? Progressives would have gone off the deep end with their class war rhetoric.

Tea Party types and their liberal/progressive types are the extremes of their respected parties. The Tea Party conservatives are the ones being lambasted daily in the media about being ‘terrorists’ for standing up for their constituents views. Progressives on the other hand, consider themselves to be ‘saints’ who can do no wrong because they stand up for their constituents.
BOTH extremes used their votes to represent the views they were elected to represent. BOTH extremes voted no despite the threat of a default.

“Progressives know that none of what politicians in Washington are doing is truly in the interests of the people.”

No, progressives are always upset because the people and politicians do not blindly accept that the progressive solution is the ONLY solution. This is because they falsely believe only they know what is in the best interests of others.
The fact is, only the individual themselves know what is in their own best interest.

“That in fact THEY are defaulting on the debt they owe to We the People — and that they are refusing to address the actual problems that have caused every bit of our insane deficit!”

Is this not what is at the core of the left vs. right debate? The left believes govt owes them and the right believes govt should leave them alone. How can we address the actual problems of our insane deficit, when the left is unwilling to accept that all of their social programs and feel-good legislation contribute greatly to the deficit?

“The GOP and their entire tea bagger contingent, as well as the Blue Dog Democrats (who are currently the majority of Democrats) all claim to have a problem regarding “big government” but this is nothing but ideological grandstanding and malarky.”

But having a problem with a small, efficient and limited government is not ideological grandstanding? Come on.

“The GOP and the Blue Dog segment of the Democrats love big government when it comes to the military”

As do the majority of Americans. Combine that with the fact that millions and millions of jobs rely on the military and the huge cuts progressives want will probably never happen.

“What they really hate is the idea that representative government should be expected to feel an obligation towards building a society that is responsible to the needs and well-being of We the People.
That’s what Progressives want and we’re tired of being told that we’re “fringe radicals” or “saints” because of it.”

You are called those things because you intentionally ignore the fact that the ‘needs and well-being of We the People’ differs from individual to individual. Some people place a higher value on rights than they do money and vice versa.
‘Fringe’ because you believe it ok to use government to force people to go along with your views.
‘Saints’ because such utopian dreams are unattainable if individual rights are to be respected.

“No. I’m a Progressive. So naturally I’d like to see those seats filled with Progressives.”

And Democrats want to see them filled with Democrats, Republicans want to see them filled with Republicans and Tea Party conservatives want to see them filled with Tea Party conservatives.
You have to respect their vieews before they will respect yours.

“The problem is that there are too few representing progressive views.”

Then get progressives elected in those areas. Stop using government to force those views onto people and convince people to willingly accept them.

“No. There are already too many Blue Dog DINO’s doing exactly that”

Then why do you not accept the fact that a Conservative does not want their rep to vote for progressive views and then even label them as terrorists for it?

Posted by: kctim at August 3, 2011 11:18 AM
Comment #326940

kctim,

You can stop arguing now.
I’ve just been proven 100% right about your side being economic terrorists.

Take a look at the article that Gary St. Lawrence put up in he center column. That’s what China, America’s largest creditor, thinks of the GOP and tea party’s economic terrorism. That’s what think about their Libertarian ideologies and solutions to America’s deficit problem — or their complete lack of solutions, rather.

Congratulate yourselves on making our nation slide ever further downward into an economic abyss. Maybe even another Great Depression. All due to the fact that the right got exactly what they wanted on this “debt deal”. Your side of the aisle owns it now — and please don’t bother to argue that this was a “compromise” either. Not after Boehner claimed that the right was getting 98% of what they wanted.

The Chinese are not stupid. They know damn well that Rightwing Political Extremists aren’t capable of solving this (largely Rightwing-created) deficit by NOT TAKING IN ANY REAL REVENUE.

I’m really hoping America will finally begin to wise up now. Finally understand that when Tea Party libertarians babble on about “rights” and “individualism” they’re actually talking about class warfare and unleashing chaos upon this nation.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 3, 2011 2:12 PM
Comment #326942

Phil,
I’m sure Walker is very proud of producing all those low wage jobs with no benefits for the people of Wisconsin.
Would you like some freedom fries with that extra-large Koch?

Posted by: Adrienne at August 3, 2011 2:39 PM
Comment #326944

Phil-
You’re forgetting one minor detail: Wisconsin’s doing better because the car companies are doing better.

The companies Obama saved.

tom humes-

Stephen, your democrat majority could not even pass a budget.

Yes, we did. Now, it’s true that we weren’t able to get a 2011 budget passed, thanks to the fact that the Republicans filibustered it. Seems they were wanting to hold the nation hostage, and would have found lacking a victim inconvenient.

Surely you jest. That’s ok, I’ll laugh along with you. HaHaHa, TeeHee. There I’m done. Actually that is an ignorant remark.

I’m glad you find it so amusing, in lieu of actually having a rational response. I know your standards are pretty low, when it comes to Democrats, for what you would call behavior that poses a threat. Nonetheless, Democrats didn’t just take the country to brink of ruin to force their agenda on everybody. Republicans did.

So, laugh away. You’ll fit right in with all those who fail to treat these issues seriously.

But that is exactly what they did with Obama’s joke about shovel ready jobs. They are responsible for even more people out of work with their fiscal irresponsibility and you use the word “austerity”.

No, Obama’s program directly created jobs, saved jobs as well. The non-partisan CBO counted about three million jobs saved or added. The real drag on the economy since then has been state and local governments laying people off, something Republicans now will succeed in adding federal jobs to.

Now you got this counterintuitive notion here that killing spending and killing jobs will improve the economy, but I don’t think you can really show me the mechanics of your idea. I think you’re just repeating what your friends say about governments crowding other employment out, even though there’s little evidence of that actually being the case. There is, though, plenty of evidence of the effect of putting hundreds of thousands of people on unemployment.

As for fiscal responsibility? The Republicans were willing to threaten a default that would have added at least a trillion dollars to the debt over the next ten years, or more if things got worse. They’re holding up an FAA funding bill now, over a 15 million dollar a year charge, and they lose 30 million dollars a day in revenue for its sake. Call me back when the republicans stop showboating, and actually start to appreciate that their antics are counter productive.

The KOS addiction has really got a hold on you. This whole approach from the left and the media has not a single original thought. The use of language like “terrorist” to describe some one who opposes another, yet in a real act of terrorism, they don’t go that far. Typical of the left.

If the shoe fits, Cinderella, wear it. Your recent “triumph” of fiscal responsibility was earned by threatening the nation with a default that would have ruined its economy for years to come.

That they dress up in suits and ties for work is irrelevant. These men and women were willing to do irrevocable harm to our economy, to our economic standing in the world, in order to tackle a national debt whose servicing costs as a percentage of GDP were 1.6%. Think about that for a second: If they had succeeded in forcing a default, then that would have been an instant 10% drop in GDP, on an annualized basis.

The GOP cure is quantifiably worse than the disease.

As for a Kos addiction? Not everybody thinks of it as the Great Orange Satan. It’s not a lockstep place. I just had an entry that got well over six hundred comments challenging the front page authors, essentially challenging Kos himself.

I speak my mind whereever I go, even when it means I might be feeding the trolls.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 3, 2011 3:03 PM
Comment #326946

Stephen:

Wisconsin’s doing better

Did you look at the Journal Sentinel link Phil put up?

All told in the 2008-‘09 recession, Wisconsin lost nearly 171,000 jobs, and it has gained back 50,000 over the last year and a half,

Those new jobs he is attempting to brag about:

Nearly half of Wisconsin’s new private-sector jobs were in the tourism, hospitality and food services category.

Jobs in the tourism and hospitality businesses are often temporary positions with low pay and few or no benefits, said Brian Jacobsen, an economist at Wells Fargo Funds Management in Menomonee Falls.

Also:

Tempering the job-creation figures was an uptick in the state’s unemployment rate to 7.6% in June, from 7.4% in May.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 3, 2011 3:39 PM
Comment #326947

adrienne

“Phil,
I’m sure Walker is very proud of producing all those low wage jobs with no benefits for the people of Wisconsin.
Would you like some freedom fries with that extra-large Koch?”


ya it would have been much better to add more gov’t jobs, and raise the already over taxed citizens taxes to pay for them. the upsidown pyramid is such a stellar economic model. you complain that wisc. has created nothing but mc jobs. i bet obama would love to be able to say he’d replaced 30% of the jobs lost nationally mc jobs or not.

wow look at that wisc. unemployment numbers are better than the national average, even with the slight uptick. get ready for republican control again after the next election, cause it’s comin.
bye bye barry.

Posted by: dbs at August 3, 2011 4:09 PM
Comment #326953
raise the already over taxed citizens taxes

If taxes as a % of gdp are at their lowest point in 60 years, then why do you say “over taxed”?

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 3, 2011 5:06 PM
Comment #326955

Warped,
The tea drinkers say they’re “overtaxed” because they are choosing to live in their own little tea bubble world — which is in no way connected to any actual logical reality.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 3, 2011 5:28 PM
Comment #326960

W.R. Consider State Tax, Local Tax, and in some cases if you work in one city but live in another you pay 2 local taxes. sales tax, property tax, plus look at your phone bill, light bill and heating fuel bill, fuel for your car is high in taxes, This is just some that I can think of off the bat.

Posted by: KAP at August 3, 2011 6:06 PM
Comment #326962

KAP,

And those things are all the Federal Government’s responsibility? Since when was your phone bill a “tax”? You choose to consume those products; it’s not my job to subsidize them for you.

In other news, let’s look at the Tea Party’s idea of protecting civil liberties

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 3, 2011 6:40 PM
Comment #326963

raise the already over taxed citizens taxes
If taxes as a % of gdp are at their lowest point in 60 years, then why do you say “over taxed”?

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 3, 2011 05:06

I believe dbs was talking about the state income tax and property taxes in Wisconsin. I grew up in Wis. and spent a week there in July with relatives.

Taxes in Wisconsin are among the highest of any state in the nation. That private sector jobs are increasing there is good news for them. Why must some consider it bad just because the state is led by Republicans?

The interesting thing, and a point not made, is that increasing jobs were accomplished not by more government spending…but rather…less government spending.

Imagine that.

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 3, 2011 7:10 PM
Comment #326964

In other news, let’s look at the Tea Party’s idea of protecting civil liberties

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 3, 2011 06:

I read the article and don’t understand how you link this to the TEA party. I did read that the obama DOJ is pushing passage of this bill.

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 3, 2011 7:22 PM
Comment #326966

Is Steve Chabot not a part of the Tea Party Movement?

Shame on Eric Holder for supporting this one, but that doesn’t excuse Chabot or the others.

New Hampshire has no income tax nor does it have a sales tax, yet I do not see NH’s economy growing much.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 3, 2011 8:04 PM
Comment #326967

W.R. I noted those others as beside Federal taxes that we pay. It seems to me that you never looked at a phone bill it’s the taxes included in the bill and other utility bills and fees that are paid each month

Posted by: KAP at August 3, 2011 8:34 PM
Comment #326968
It seems to me that you never looked at a phone bill it’s the taxes included in the bill and other utility bills and fees that are paid each month

OK, I forgot about those excise taxes. I guess you are right that my youth is showing. I don’t have a landline and my cell phone is pay-as-you-go so I don’t pay that excise tax (but I do pay sales tax). Right now, I’m renting a room so my landlord pays the utility bill (and I pay for it with my rent money). Apart from the rare occasion that my parents ever let me see their utility bills I really haven’t seen any.

But in any case my point still stands. Why are people “over-taxed” if taxes as a % of gdp are lower than any point since the Truman administration?

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 3, 2011 9:08 PM
Comment #326970

W.R., Maybe we’re not over taxed per say in the Federal side but when you throw in all the rest of the taxes as I stated then we may be overtaxed.

Posted by: KAP at August 3, 2011 9:38 PM
Comment #326972
but when you throw in all the rest of the taxes as I stated then we may be overtaxed.

It’s not the responsibility of Congress or the President to worry about that. If you don’t like what’s going on in Cleveland, Ohio then you need to get active with your local politicians. In Massachusetts, we have this thing called proposition 2.5 which prevents towns from raising taxes by more than %2.5 of the previous year’s unless an override passes muster at both the Town Meeting and in the general election.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 3, 2011 10:18 PM
Comment #326974

W.R. I know it is not the responsibility of congress or the president to worry about the rest of the taxes we pay. The point I’m trying to make is that I work in Cleveland which is taxed @2%, I live in a suburb which is also taxed @2%, in Ohio I am responsible for both Taxes but the suburb tax I get a .5% credit for paying Cleveland taxes which I do not get refunded so making a round figure of 25,000 per year I’m paying close to $1000 between both cities plus state taxes and fed taxes and all the other taxes vour glorious politicians put on us we are Overtaxed. By the way Cleveland and vicinity are a DEMOCRATIC stronghold that like this country are falling apart.

Posted by: KAP at August 3, 2011 10:50 PM
Comment #326975

WR, Steve Chabbot Ohio, District 1, is NOT part of the Tea Party, you are absolutly wrong. He may call himself TP, but I am part of the TP in his district and he is not.

Posted by: Berretta9 at August 3, 2011 10:52 PM
Comment #326977

FICA is a tax; how has it changed in the past 60 years? I’m sure the Feds have control of this tax.

Posted by: Mike at August 3, 2011 10:56 PM
Comment #326978
The point I’m trying to make is that I work in Cleveland which is taxed @2%, I live in a suburb which is also taxed @2%, in Ohio I am responsible for both Taxes but the suburb tax I get a .5% credit for paying Cleveland taxes which I do not get refunded so making a round figure of 25,000 per year I’m paying close to $1000 between both cities plus state taxes and fed taxes and all the other taxes your glorious politicians put on us we are Overtaxed.

OK, it’s impossible for me to know whether or not you are over taxed or not without you giving me too much personal information. Right now, I’m working a job in New York, but I pay about %5 in taxes. I live quite modestly, so I don’t feel squeezed by taxes all that much. But really, if you have complaints about how Ohio taxes you then complain to your local politicians. In any case, 4% isn’t all that much; especially when one considered all the services the government provides to us for our money. In many cases these are things no private enterprise would do because too many of the benefits are externalized. I guess a better question for us to ask is this: What % of GDP should the government collect as revenue? What % of GDP should the government be spending? No doubt we disagree about those answers, but at least it would be more constructive than simply asserting that one is “over taxed”.

WR, Steve Chabbot Ohio, District 1, is NOT part of the Tea Party, you are absolutly wrong. He may call himself TP, but I am part of the TP in his district and he is not.

You sang a different tune last November.

But seriously, how am I supposed to keep track? So far, I look at the politicians’ statements & actions to make my decision as to how I label him/her. On the other hamd, if people like you are going to move the goal posts in order to suit your agenda then what’s the point of trying to keep track of who is Tea Party affiliated and who isn’t? I might as well just stop trying to distinguish between establishment GOP and TP.

Mike,
Who said FICA wasn’t a tax? FICA taxes are included when I say revenue as a % of GDP is below 15% and is lower than any other point in the last 60 years.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 3, 2011 11:48 PM
Comment #326979

W.R. Right now you say you say you have modest expences. Once you graduate from college and get a real paying job and have to make ends meet from your earnings and you see what the tax man taketh then you will realize. When you gross $600 a week and take home something like $420. after taxes that’s $180. per week and $720. per month in taxes not counting property tax, and sales tax.

Posted by: KAP at August 4, 2011 12:26 AM
Comment #326980

Right now I’m earning $300 a week gross pay; after taxes I have $260. With that much I’m able to pay rent, buy my own food, pay my for my own cell phone, buy my own textbooks with plenty left over to invest. I earned a merit based scholarship that pays for my tuition. I don’t buy anything that I don’t need. I only buy new clothes if my old ones wear out instead of keeping up with the latest fashions. I don’t own a TV. As I said, I don’t buy anything I don’t need.

The government provides a lot of vital services to us even if they are not readily apparent. Even if I payed a third of my income in taxes, I still think it’d be quite a bargain. And the wealthier that I am, the more governmental services I’ll likely consume.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 4, 2011 12:53 AM
Comment #326981

KAP, I’m fully aware that you may not even realize this, but in reality you are actually making a perfectly fantastic argument for the Left. Because what you are describing is in fact the reason why those who are making quite a lot more money than you currently do, should be being made to pay a shitload more in taxes, all across the board, than you are currently being made to do.

And allow me to add, I really find it so damn sad how deeply average Americans have been duped by people who are so much more well off.

I say this in all seriousness, and with a complete lack of malice or sarcasm.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 4, 2011 1:14 AM
Comment #326982

Adrienne, I do not advocate anyone paying a shitload more in taxes, but I do advocate everyone paying their fair share and I do mean everyone. It’s been said 50% don’t pay any taxes. The loopholes need to be fixed and the tax laws simplified. Is it fair for someone to get back in a refund more then they originally paid in taxes? I am all for a flat tax rate, no deductions, no refunds. That goes for the lowest wage earner to the top wage earner including corporate taxes. I find it sad that some think all because your successful in life you should be required to pay more.

Posted by: KAP at August 4, 2011 4:27 AM
Comment #326983

adrienne

“those who are making quite a lot more money than you currently do, should be being made to pay a shitload more in taxes, all across the board, than you are currently being made to do.”

why? because you say so, or you feel others are entitled to something they didn’t work for?


“And allow me to add, I really find it so damn sad how deeply average Americans have been duped by people who are so much more well off.”


the only ones being duped are the ones buying into the entire premise of social justice.

Posted by: dbs at August 4, 2011 5:35 AM
Comment #326989

“It’s been said 50% don’t pay any taxes.”

Simply not true. Every working American pays the entitlement taxes (payroll taxes) as well as sales tax, fees and local property and income taxes. Those are all regressive taxes to boot. When the total tax burden is considered, taxation is significantly less progressive than generally thought by considering only income taxes.

Interestingly, much of the conservative argument about excessive government spending relates to the entitlements. Those are the very services that actually are paid for by all beneficiaries through the payroll taxes. There has been no free loading in the entitlements.

Posted by: Rich at August 4, 2011 10:54 AM
Comment #326991

WR writes; “Why are people “over-taxed” if taxes as a % of gdp are lower than any point since the Truman administration.”

There are a wide variety of taxes including, but not limited to…

Federal Income Taxes, State Income Taxes, State Sales Taxes, Payroll Taxes, Property Taxes, Use Taxes…etc.

Your question addresses only one…Federal Income Taxes. Federal Income Tax revenue is lower than the historical average because millions of workers, who would be paying those taxes, are unemployed.

The TEA Party and I are not arguing for lower tax RATES. We believe we are Taxed Enough Already.

WR, your way of living is certainly not representative of the average American. What is working for you in income and spending is hardly typical.

Posted by: Royal Flush at August 4, 2011 12:39 PM
Comment #326992

dbs,

“wow look at that wisc. unemployment numbers are better than the national average, even with the slight uptick. get ready for republican control again after the next election, cause it’s comin.
bye bye barry.”

You guys on the right seem to be working under the absurd notion that the current group of stiffs that have declared to run might actually have a chance to win.

I may or may not vote for Obama, but I certainly wouldn’t vote for any of those folks now running from the right, and I am pretty sure that few, if any, people of a political persuasion other than from the extreme right would vote for them either.

Good luck with that.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at August 4, 2011 12:41 PM
Comment #326993

Rich, How many people when filing their federal return get back MORE then they payed in originally? It is those people who are the ones who pay NO federal income tax. I’d bet that all of the lower wage earners and a good majority of the middle income people fall into that category with the EIC credit which would amount to about 50%. I know I fell into that category before I retired.

Posted by: KAP at August 4, 2011 12:43 PM
Comment #327000

RF,

Your question addresses only one…Federal Income Taxes.

Wrong! My numbers include all revenue. Individual income taxes are only %6.2 of GDP.

WR, your way of living is certainly not representative of the average American.

Maybe the average American should change his/her spending behaviors then? Maybe it’s time for some actual personal responsibility?

KAP,

I know I fell into that category before I retired.
If your tax refunds were larger than the amount witheld from your paycheck, why the hell are you complaining about your taxes being too high?

I am all for a flat tax rate, no deductions, no refunds.
Congratulations! Such a tax already exists.


Posted by: Warped Reality at August 4, 2011 4:33 PM
Comment #327002

It is not just that we are at historical lows for taxation, we are also one of the world’s lowest taxed nations. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tax_tot_tax_as_of_gdp-taxation-total-as-of-gdp; http://www.photius.com/rankings/tax_burden_country_ranks_2009.html

Posted by: Rich at August 4, 2011 4:46 PM
Comment #327004
For months, poll after poll has showed that rank-and-file Americans of all political persuasions believe that revenues (the nice way to say taxes) should be a part of any deal to resolve our debt crisis. Seventy-two percent of Americans polled between July 14 and July 17 said taxes should be raised on those making more than $250,000 per year, including 73 percent of independents and a stunning 54 percent of Republicans. Fifty-nine percent wanted taxes raised on oil and gas companies, including 60 percent of independents and 55 percent of Republicans. Yet Republicans refused to vote for a deal that included any revenues at all, and the Democratic leadership capitulated despite the fact that the position was exactly the opposite of what large majorities wanted.


The Nation: The Hidden Casualty Of The Debt Deal

Posted by: Adrienne at August 4, 2011 5:01 PM
Comment #327013

It was the same way with the health care reform bill. Viable alternatives used by other developed countries, e.g., single payer universal coverage, national health services, etc., never saw the light of day. Even the modest “public option” was tabled.

We have a political system that cannot even bring to debate obvious solutions let alone implement them. Its just crazy!

Posted by: Rich at August 4, 2011 5:34 PM
Comment #327015

Here are two relevant pieces penned by David Frum that I think are worth reading:

http://www.frumforum.com/if-the-conservatives-were-right-about-the-economy

http://www.frumforum.com/could-it-be-that-our-enemies-were-right

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 4, 2011 5:40 PM
Comment #327018

Warped,

David Frum is a voice of reason from the conservative side. He has consistently hammered at the simple point that while conservatives may disagree with Obama’s policies, they are not the cause of our economic, health inflation problems, etc. Conservatives may wish to hide their heads in the sand, but they do so at their ultimate peril.

Posted by: Rich at August 4, 2011 6:08 PM
Comment #327019

WR,

Lets look at the real world. You are renting a room now and your landlord is paying your utilities. When you get married a room will not be enough.

I live in a modest house that I rent in the Newport News area of Virginia. I pay 950 per month for rent and that is modest for the area. My last power bill was was 190. My last water bill was 164 for 2 months, my solid waste bill was another 160 for 2 months. I’m a good driver and only have liability insurance on my vehicles so my insurance breaks down to about 40 per month. My house is heated with natural gas and that costs close to 400 per month in the winter. Of course I don’t use air conditioning in the winter, so my power bill goes down to around 100 per month then. I don’t follow fashion trends either and haven’t bought any clothing in over a year. I do however try to keep clean and have to use a body wash to fight dry skin which costs about 5 per month. Today I had to buy razors and shave cream which cost about 8 dollars.

When you grow up and have to supply ALL your needs and the needs of a family you will realize just how expensive life really is.

Posted by: tdobson at August 4, 2011 6:24 PM
Comment #327023

W.R. I wasn’t complaining at the time because the refunds were a few hundred over what I paid in. Now the refunds are thousands over what is paid in. Now some want the Rich to pay more because they believe they don’t pay their fair share and some say that the 50% who don’t pay taxes is a myth. My dauighters X boy friend who has a daughter by her filed his tax for the year and recieved $2+thousand over what he paid in because of the EIC credit. This is just one example of the millions that exist and probably if let to exist you will use some day if you earn less then, I think is $50thou. That is why I think we need to revise our tax codes and institute a flat rate tax with no refunds, no deductions for everyone, that way ALL will be paying their fair share. I agree with tdobson’s comment 327019, when you get out into the real world and start paying things on your own your attitude will change.

Posted by: KAP at August 4, 2011 7:30 PM
Comment #327026

“…and some say that the 50% who don’t pay taxes is a myth.”

Some say that because it is a myth. Can’t you argue reasonably and accept the undeniable fact that virtually everybody pays taxes? What worker doesn’t pay F.I.C.A. taxes? Whose F.I.C.A. is capped? Who doesn’t pay sales taxes? Who doesn’t pay government fees? Who doesn’t pay local sales and property tax?

As regards the income tax, did you ever consider that the percent of income taxes paid by economic group is highly correlated with their ownership interest in the country.

Posted by: Rich at August 4, 2011 8:05 PM
Comment #327027

Maybe I should say 50% pay no FEDERAL TAX, Rich.

Posted by: KAP at August 4, 2011 8:19 PM
Comment #327028
When you grow up and have to supply ALL your needs and the needs of a family you will realize just how expensive life really is.

I’ll just have to wait and see. Keep in mind though, if I marry, I’ll have my spouse’s income in addition to my own so we can afford to live in a larger space. I’m just really glad that I was able to live this summer without any financial support from my parents which is a first for me. I do believe I got a wicked deal on the room I rent; I only pay $450/mo. It’s a small space and the house is falling apart, but I don’t mind much. Right now, I don’t drive an automobile which saves me a lot of money. I ride my bike to work and to do my errands. If I have to travel further than that, I bike to the train station and take the train. To be perfectly honest, being financially independent (for the most part) has been very exciting for me this summer.

KAP,
I don’t really have much of an opinion about the EIC yet. If you want someone to defend welfare spending to the death, I’m not your man. However, as I said before, the FICA tax does a pretty good job as a flat tax on all incomes. I also think I should reiterate, that statistic that says 45% don’t pay income taxes. Those people do in fact pay FICA tax, sales tax and other taxes. Also, I believe dependents such as children make up a good chunk of that 45%; I don’t think any should be outraged that children don’t pay taxes.

I agree that we should eliminate most deductions/write offs from the tax code. These “tax expenditures” really distort our economy and end up wasting lots of money. However, I do believe the marginal tax rate should be higher for the wealthier because they tend to benefit much more from the services the government provides than the less well-off.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 4, 2011 8:27 PM
Comment #327029

W.R. You say you will have 2 incomes if you get married but little things happen in married life called babies where your income drops to 1 income.

Posted by: KAP at August 4, 2011 8:33 PM
Comment #327030
but little things happen in married life called babies where your income drops to 1 income.

Stay-at-home parents are very rare these days. Both of my parents worked when I was young.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 4, 2011 8:39 PM
Comment #327032

KAP states:

I am all for a flat tax rate, no deductions, no refunds. That goes for the lowest wage earner to the top wage earner including corporate taxes. I find it sad that some think all because your successful in life you should be required to pay more.

OK, if you are not one of the top earners in this nation than why would you be for a flat tax? You must realize that a flat tax can only hurt you.

Let’s use a local example. Your street needs to be fixed. This fix will lead to higher home values for everyone on your street. Let’s say that the fix costs $10,000. If the wealthiest neighbor on your street pays a higher percentage than you for the fix, you benefit. If they lower his tax rate more towards your rate than either the street cannot be fixed or you will have to kick in a hell of a a lot more. His tax rate may not force him to make tough choices, but if you have to kick in more it may force you to make a tough decision about saving for college, groceries etc. Why would you want that? When the street is fixed your wealthiest neighbor would benefit more anyway because his home is worth more than yours in the first place. I just don’t understand the thinking. Why do you feel bad for taxing the wealthy at a higher rate than yourself? You may work just as hard and be just as smart but may have not benefited from upper level connections, an inheritance, private schooling etc… Who knows? If your a middle class hard working person why punish yourself even more? What may be good for the wealthy may not be good for you. Unless you plan on being very wealthy, and the odds of that, even with a good education, are pretty slim. Fight for what you have!

Btw-Does success mean that you were able to amass a lot of money for yourself? So anyone working hard or harder than the wealthy are not successful?

Posted by: Tbone at August 4, 2011 8:57 PM
Comment #327033

W.R. That depends on the situation and how you feel after the little one arrives. You may change your mind about a 2 income family and elect to stay at a 1 income family. Depending on the area you reside in and the cost of living in that area.

Posted by: KAP at August 4, 2011 8:58 PM
Comment #327034

“Maybe I should say 50% pay no FEDERAL TAX, Rich.”

No, you would still be wrong. F.I.C.A. taxes are Federal Taxes. F stands for Federal. It has been the fastest growing tax as a percentage of tax revenue over the past thirty years.

There is also federal excise taxes on motor fuel, tobacco, alcohol, communication and transportation as well as user fees.


Posted by: Rich at August 4, 2011 9:00 PM
Comment #327035

Tbone,

Welcome to WatchBlog! Good points; though I’d like to add to your example. Keep in mind that the wealthy will tend to benefit more from most government services including road repair. If a wealthy person has a financial stake in a company that utilizes public roads then he/she stands to benefit a lot more than the person who occasionally uses the road to commute to work or run errands.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 4, 2011 9:19 PM
Comment #327036

KAP,
Fair enough. It’s a little pretentious for me to make assumptions without knowing:
1. Whether I even have kids
2. Whether or not I ever convince some girl to marry me
3. Whatever my spouse’s opinions
4. Other factors? When I was young both of my parents worked, but my maternal grandmother lived in the next town over so I spent a lot of time with her. I don’t know if a similar arrangement would ever be feasible for my hypothetical family.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 4, 2011 9:23 PM
Comment #327038

tbone, A flat Federal witholding tax would not hurt. Say you make $50k a 10% flat tax you are withheld $5K and still have after state and local say $43K. If you are carefull and don’t spend like a drunken sailor much like our government has I’m sure you can live comfortable on that amount. As I said once before in a comment, God only requires 10%, Why should the government be any better.
Rich I know the play on words, take it somewhere else.

Posted by: KAP at August 4, 2011 9:32 PM
Comment #327039
God only requires 10%, Why should the government be any better.

Because the government is much more inefficient than God.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 4, 2011 9:46 PM
Comment #327041

W.R. Not with those in government now.

Posted by: KAP at August 4, 2011 9:52 PM
Comment #327042

By the way W.R. I don’t think God is $14T and rising in debt.

Posted by: KAP at August 4, 2011 10:01 PM
Comment #327043

I said inefficient.

In any case, I don’t think God cares about the pieces of paper or metal tokens we call money. His Son told us to render onto Caesar what is Caesar’s and render onto God what is God’s.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 4, 2011 10:08 PM
Comment #327049

Hag 2:8 “The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.”

Psa 50:10 “For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.”


I love it when liberals quote the Bible…

Posted by: Conservativethinker at August 4, 2011 10:50 PM
Comment #327052

CT,

Are you trying to say that God actually cares about the little trinkets that we use as money? If you think God has any use for our gold and silver then you truly don’t Him. Tithing one’s income is supposed to be a symbolic gesture representing one’s devotion to God; it’s absurd to compare that with the taxes we pay to the government. Those verses you cite serve to illustrate how awesome God’s power is; nothing exists outside of His domain, but I don’t think that’s terribly relevant to the conversation that’s occurring here about our government.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 4, 2011 11:16 PM
Comment #327053

Tell me WR, why does the left, who has no use for religion, try to debate the Bible? You said God has no use for money, and then you quoted Matt. 22:21; Mark 12:17; and Luke 20:25, with no understanding of what He was trying to say; because it had nothing to do with God’s opinion of riches.

I gave you 2 verses proclaiming God’s owns all things, and you ask if God “actually cares about little trinkets”.

“Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.”


Posted by: Conservativethinker at August 4, 2011 11:53 PM
Comment #327054

W.R. Sorry for confusing your statement about God. But because the government is less efficient then God is, does that mean we should give government more to waste on it’s inefficientcy? Or should we require government to use our tax dollars in a more efficient way? Do you think it is ok to borrow to cover expences that our tax dollars will not cover each month? Or do you think you should be able to keep what you earned through your hard work and give government just enough to run efficiently? Hence the tithe and the tax God can run efficiently on 10% so should government be able to run efficiently on 10%. Besides there are more people contributing to government then there is God.

Posted by: KAP at August 4, 2011 11:55 PM
Comment #327056

CT,
I really don’t want to dive into a lot of squabbling about the interpretation of this verse or that verse. This is a political forum, not a theological one. Please don’t take this personally or as a slight against religion, but I’d rather not stray too far from the topic at hand. If you really want to have in depth theological discussion, you can always email me. An address you can use is warren [dot] porter [at] sunysb [dot] edu.

KAP, it’s absurd to think government would ever as efficient as God. God is perfect, whereas government is a creation of man and therefore flawed. However, government is the best we’ve got until God decides bring our current Age to an end.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 5, 2011 12:55 AM
Comment #327057

W.R. I would never think government could ever be as efficient as God is. But seeing how this government is man made and flawed, we as tax payers want our government to strive to be as efficient as possible by not wasting our tax dollars on trivial BS. That is why I would like to see a flat tax rate with NO deductions, NO refunds for everyone from the top on down that way we would see each and everyone paying their fair share.

Posted by: KAP at August 5, 2011 1:12 AM
Comment #327064

KAP

“If you are carefull and don’t spend like a drunken sailor much like our government has”

that’s not fair, the sailors are pi$$ing away thier own money. the gov’t is pi$$ing away someone elses.

Posted by: dbs at August 5, 2011 5:05 AM
Comment #327066

“Rich I know the play on words, take it somewhere else.”

KAP,

It is not a simple play on words. Contrary to your assertion, most people pay federal taxes, particularly taxes related to the social safety net (SS and Medicare). They are not an insignificant amount. They currently account for about 36% of all federal tax revenue. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/revenue.cfm

The idea that only the rich pay taxes in this country is vastly overstated. While, the overall tax burden by income groups is progressive, it is not as progressive as generally thought. http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2011.pdf

Posted by: Rich at August 5, 2011 6:55 AM
Comment #327067

I’ve seen it posted many times on WB that the poor pay taxes too. It’s true they do pay sales tax, user fees, property tax (if they own real property), payroll taxes etc. However, the rich also pay these same taxes. I would submit that the rich pay more in these taxes than the poor do PLUS the lion’s share of income taxes. The rich spend more so they pay more in sales taxes. The rich own more real property so they pay more in property taxes. The rich participate in more activities that require user fees, so they pay more of those also.

The tax system is skewed too far in favor of the poor. A flat tax or federal consumer tax (I like the FAIR TAX) would balance things.

Posted by: tdobson at August 5, 2011 7:28 AM
Comment #327086
we as tax payers want our government to strive to be as efficient as possible by not wasting our tax dollars on trivial BS.

That’s fine, we discuss here on Watchblog whether program x is worth the money we spend on it or not. Our Constitution states that we are trying to form “a more perfect union”; although our system isn’t perfect we keep trying to perfect it. We need to acknowledge that we can’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

That is why I would like to see a flat tax rate with NO deductions, NO refunds for everyone from the top on down that way we would see each and everyone paying their fair share.
The payroll tax already serves this purpose (except for the fact that income over $103,000 is exempt from SS taxes)
I would submit that the rich pay more in these taxes than the poor
So? I don’t think it’s possible for any other arrangement to be the case. The poor, by definition, do not have the money to pay more in taxes than the rich. In addition, the rich consume far more government services than the poor, so it’s only fair that they bear most of the costs. Posted by: Warped Reality at August 5, 2011 2:03 PM
Comment #327089

W.R. Did I not say NO DEDUCTIONS, NO REFUNDS our payroll taxes do not serve this purpose. I know people who pay very little in payroll taxes because of their deduction status and also who get back more then they paid in Fed. Withholding taxes then they put in because of the EIC credit.

Posted by: KAP at August 5, 2011 4:05 PM
Comment #327091


You have also heard it stated quite often the the Bottom 80% of the people have less than 15% of the wealth, the bottom 95% have 40% of the wealth and the top 5% have 60% of the wealth.

When referring to America’s wealth, we speak in terms of:

Top 1%

Top 5%

Bottom 95%

Bottom 80%

But, there is little doubt for some that the top 5% desperately need tax relief because the poor aren’t paying their fair share.

If the bottom 80% has 15% of the wealth, what does the bottom 20% have? Less than one percent? What is 10% of less than 1%?

In addition, the gap between the top 5% and the rest of us continues to grow.

A couple more decades of this and the bottom 80% will have less than 10% of the wealth and the bottom 95% less than 30%. That is where America is headed.

Posted by: jlw at August 5, 2011 4:32 PM
Comment #327092

As far as I know the EIC does not apply to payroll taxes. Those refunds are associated with the income tax no the payroll tax. Perhaps you could share with me evidence that says otherwise.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 5, 2011 4:33 PM
Comment #327093

An interesting idea penned by Charles Krauthammer.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 5, 2011 4:37 PM
Comment #327097

W.R. EIC is on the 1040 when you file your Federal return and is added to the amount you paid in Federal income tax. I can’t remember off hand the max amount of earnings you can claim on the EIC but I think it’s $50K. I used it when my daughter was growing up but then like I said it was hundreds extra not like today where it is thousands extra.

Posted by: KAP at August 5, 2011 5:41 PM
Comment #327114

tdobson states:

The tax system is skewed too far in favor of the poor. A flat tax or federal consumer tax (I like the FAIR TAX) would balance things.

Well, if that is the case then sign me up for being poor. With the tax advantage, I can’t go wrong.

Posted by: Tbone at August 5, 2011 7:34 PM
Comment #327116

KAP,
The 1040 deals with income taxes; not payroll taxes. I think you are describing situations in which the EIC makes one’s income taxes negative, but that doesn’t change the fact that the person still pays payroll taxes.

Posted by: Warped Reality at August 5, 2011 8:31 PM
Comment #327118

W.R. Yes a person still pays payroll taxes throughout the year. EIC or Earned Income Credit does not make ones income tax a negative but it does make it a big positive for the recipient. Example after you figure your deductions and you find that without the EIC you have a refund comming of say $800. then you do the EIC worksheet and find that you are entitled to $2000. credit, added to the $800. your refund jumps to $2800. which is more then you originily paid in. You will be able to benefit from this EIC after you have your first child. Children are the catch to using the EIC.

Posted by: KAP at August 5, 2011 8:46 PM
Comment #327121
which is more then you originily paid in.
So the actual income taxes paid is negative; which is what I was trying to say. Posted by: Warped Reality at August 5, 2011 9:32 PM
Comment #398326

Thought-provoking ideas . I Appreciate the analysis . Does anyone know where my business could get a sample 2012 IRS 1040 - Schedule EIC document to complete ?

Posted by: Chi Downs at September 10, 2015 2:34 PM
Comment #399383

Hi XXX . my business partner got ahold of a blank 2012 IRS 1040 - Schedule EIC copy here : http://pdf.ac/a3E6fW

Posted by: CHASTITY RED at October 8, 2015 12:38 PM
Post a comment