Democrats & Liberals Archives

Let My Country Go.

The Republicans, once again, have no idea what havoc they seem prepared to wreak on our country. Call it fearmongering to say it, if you will, but I think that the good Lord gave us fear for a reason. It protects us from doing stupid things. Our bodies, by themselves, will yank a hand back from a hot stove, but isn’t it so much better not to be foolish enough to put your hand there in the first place?

Republican policies have become like the biblical plagues inflicted on Egypt.

Recount the last ten years, and it's like a cavalcade of disasters.

Enron. Katrina. The explosion of the deficit. The grinding, stupid, strategically preposterous failure to win two wars, and their cost to our prestige and our treasury. The loss in prestige and pride caused by the advocacy and practice of torture. The Housing Crisis. The Crash of 2008. And now this.

And really, in just about every case, there were warning signs that had to be deliberately ignored in order for these things to happen.

If this debt ceiling doesn't get raised, there will be consequences, but they will be consequences explained way ahead of time.

Republicans themselves, if we're talking about the voters or politicians, aren't bringing this on because they're cartoon villains. That would make this simpler in the scheme of things. No, this is happening because the Republicans based too much of their politics on simply being contrarian. When you warn your kid not to play with knives or fire, and they do it any way and get cut or burn, part of what got the kid in trouble was the impulse that the kid had that they understood things just fine, and could do what they wanted without getting hurt. They simply did not have the appropriate mindset to appreciate why it was bad judgment.

But we're dealing with adults here, so it's not so much a thing of these people simply lacking the maturity. These are people who manage to get through the day, at the very least, take care of themselves, live as responsible citizens, in most cases. So what gives?

What gives is that as an institution, Conservatism has become postively hostile to being told what to do, or told what to think, especially if its a Liberal doing the asking. With Obama, you can multiply that by a hundred times. Ultimately, it's a dead end, because just about anything can be defined as lacking legitimacy on those terms, even plans and compromises that were otherwise productive for their cause.

Republicans might say this is about running on their ideas, but ideas without positive results don't tend to be healthy politically. Republicans might say that they have a mandate to oppose Obama, but really, all they've succeed in doing is making BOTH parties unpopular.

Republicans have dropped themselves into a black hole of irresponsibility, of uselessness to the average person, and seem determined that everybody else follow them. The President has only seen twenty-three bills come to his desk this year. Twenty-three!

Republicans have gotten next to nothing done, and pretty much staked their political future on taking the country hostage to force their brand of entitlement cuts and fiscal reform on everybody. That, or a sovereign default unmotivated by any sensible thing like an actually lack of ability to pay.

Entitlement cuts don't happen to be very popular, so what's the deal? The Republican voters out there need to understand that their leaders have chosen a path that won't lead the party to glory. They've chosen a path that locks this country and their party into a path and a destiny that is altogether mediocre at best.

At worst, what they're doing now will lead to a catastrophe of historic proportions. I can't see how that helps their cause any. I suppose it might not be any trouble to convince the die-hards that it was the Democrats fault, but there is a substantial group of Republicans in Congress who have let it be known that they won't raise the debt ceiling under any circumstances. The Republicans were also offered the chance to pass a clean debt ceiling rise long before. They decided to make this a problem, a controversy, where nearly every other Congress that dealt with a debt limit simply dealt with it. They put their politics before the functioning of our fiscal system.

The government isn't some debate society. It's a functioning part of our society. The Republicans have lost sight of this, and seem prepared to inflict great harm on our society just to win political points they can't win any other way.

Let my country go. Let my country decide its own destiny.

Let my country function again, heal again. Quit bringing things to crisis again and again. Let us learn from our mistakes. Let us reconsider how we do business, how we do policy, and now we express our political principles in our agenda and our way of governing.

Let my country go. Stop giving the world cause to doubt the sanity of this country.

Posted by Stephen Daugherty at July 24, 2011 8:21 PM
Comments
Comment #326368

Stephen, you should send this one to the MSM for publication. We have gone from throwing granny off the cliff, to seniors and children are going to die, Medicare and SS are failing, and now but not least “WE ARE FACING THE SAME AS THE BIBLICAL PLAGUES OF EGYPT”. I love how you liberals quote the Bible and at the same time try to ban it from every Americans life. We were facing “Armageddon” last week and we’re facing plagues of Biblical proportion today.

And we hear the cry of the socialist, “Let My People Go”, Oh sorry “Let my country go”. I guess you consider Obama to be Moses and the Republicans to be Egypt.

Tell me Stephen, do you believe Moses parted the Red Sea and led the children of Israel across?

Posted by: Conservativethinker at July 24, 2011 11:15 PM
Comment #326369

For almost 2 years Democrats have not thought about a budget, haven’t put any of their proposals of compromise in writing to end this debt crisis, the only bill to go through the house is Cut, Cap, and Balance which Harry Reid wouldn’t even let go to a vote and Stephen has the audasity to blame Republicans and use bible metaphor by saying Let My Country go. RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: KAP at July 24, 2011 11:27 PM
Comment #326370

KAP, it has been over 800 days since the Democrats have presented a budget. Obama has presented nothing and Reid has presented nothing. The House Republicans passed Cut, Cap, and Balance; and I thought it was the job of the Senate to debate the House Bill and vote their own version and send it back to the House for consideration. This is called by-partisan negotiating, but Reid would rather blather. But how do you negotiate with a bowl full of Jello.

Posted by: Mike at July 25, 2011 12:35 AM
Comment #326372

How quickly conservatives forget the recent past. When the GOP won a lot of seats in the last midterm, they did NOT want the Democrats to pass a Democratic budget before the end of the session. Now the same people who did NOT want a Democractic budget actually complain because the Democrats did not pass one! Unbelievable.

Mike,
In a two-party system, it is necessary for the two sides to negotiate and compromise in order to pass legislation. Ideologues may talk a good game, but they never actually get anything done- at least not in a two-party system.

The truth is, the GOP House record on legislating is absolutely dismal. They are not doing their job. Their job is not to grandstand. They are expected to enact legislation, and that legislation needs to be able to pass the Senate and be signable by the president. This is called ‘cooperation.’ An attitude of ‘my way or the highway’ works very poorly in a two-party system. The House Republicans are expected to do more than cast symbolic votes. They are expected to govern, and their leaders are supposed to lead.

Posted by: phx8 at July 25, 2011 1:05 AM
Comment #326373


Stephen, that graph seems to indicate that when it is hard for the people to distinguish a difference in the policy pursuits of the two parties, the Democrats unfavorable rating rises to the height of the Republicans unfavorable rating, NAFTA, the Iraq War and now. As far as the American people are concerned, the Republicans aren’t the only ones leading the country down the wrong path.

Posted by: jlw at July 25, 2011 4:03 AM
Comment #326374

phx8

“They are expected to enact legislation, and that legislation needs to be able to pass the Senate and be signable by the president.”

the first step is to draft a bill, and that’s exactly what the house did. it is then the senates responsibility to debate and amend that bill, or draft one of thier own and send it back to the house. so far the senate has done niether. all reid has done is bitch amd pontificate. hardly part of resonable debate and compromise in my book. BTW keep in mind any tax legislation must originate in the house, and the democrats don’t control the house.

Posted by: dbs at July 25, 2011 5:46 AM
Comment #326378

conservativethinker-
Tell me: do you believe that America can approach its investors and say “Sorry we stiffed you that last time, won’t happen again” and actually get the credit we once did?

I believe the splitting of the red sea is a possibility with God, but my faith would not be lessened if I learned otherwise. I believe the key takeaway is God’s dominion over the natural world, and that I will take on faith.

I’m not going to apologize for using the biblical reference. I’m not casting Obama as Moses or anybody else for that matter. I’m casting America as Israel, and the GOP as Pharaoh, unwilling to let America take its own path, unwilling to let America recover from its mistakes.

Let my country have a future. Quit inflicting your foolishness on us.

KAP-
We’ve done our best to pass budgets, and Republicans have done their best to block them in the Senate, and after the 2010 election, in the House as well. We had a budget all ready to go in the lame duck session, but it seems your people wanted to take the Government hostage first, before you proceeded to bigger things, like the world economy.

Quit blaming Democrats for the Right Wing’s intolerable contempt for anybody else holding power. They screwed things up, but they’ve fought anybody else’s attempts to govern differently.

dbs-
We’re not required to betray our principles to make you feel good about yours. The Senate was not designed by the framers to be a rubber stamp. We had an omnibus bill, and you wouldn’t let it through the Senate without a filibuster. We gave you a clean Debt Limit bill to pass, to avoid this unhealthy uncertainty and possible catastrophe, but your side is playing games.

I am sick of watching the Republicans betray the interests of the nation so they can indulge their political contributors and partisan interests. Eithe you folks start putting country first, or me and every other American are going to hold your party accountable for their misplaced priorities.

jlw-
The Republicans lead the way. Now Democrats like myself want to lead the country in a different way. Who’s providing the greatest, most concerted resistance? In my mind, you take on the most stubborn obstacles first, then hold those accountable who are more pliable. Heck, if you hit the leader hard enough, the followers are going to feel it too, and act accordingly.

There needs to be a difference not because it’s fair to only hit one side first, but because the fall and failure of the strongest supporters will always be more effective discouragement, than the malaise of a general pox on both houses. People need an alternative to move towards change, even if the differences are not as great as one would hope.

Then, after you seek that alternative, you choose a slightly better one than that. So on and so forth.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 25, 2011 8:40 AM
Comment #326379

This is the OBAMA administration. Just as Bush is blamed for all the problems that happened during his terms, Obama will be ultimately blamed if the country goes into default.

The left can use all the scare tactics they want, but I think the conservatives should hold their own and stick to their principals.

Posted by: tdobson at July 25, 2011 8:54 AM
Comment #326381

SD responded:

“conservativethinker-

Tell me: do you believe that America can approach its investors and say “Sorry we stiffed you that last time, won’t happen again” and actually get the credit we once did?

I believe the splitting of the red sea is a possibility with God, but my faith would not be lessened if I learned otherwise. I believe the key takeaway is God’s dominion over the natural world, and that I will take on faith.

I’m not going to apologize for using the biblical reference. I’m not casting Obama as Moses or anybody else for that matter. I’m casting America as Israel, and the GOP as Pharaoh, unwilling to let America take its own path, unwilling to let America recover from its mistakes.

Let my country have a future. Quit inflicting your foolishness on us.”

Sorry Stephen, but I don’t believe anyone will be stiffed. This is nothing more than scare tactics by the left. Tim Gietner said it would be “Armageddon”; we have been told all weekend, by the MSM, that early Monday morning the Asian markets would crash. Any crash yet???

Then you come on WB using the Biblical analogy of the Jews being held in slavery in Egypt; after telling us of disasters of Biblical proportion as a result of the Republicans not caving to the same old liberal tactics. You say Americans are Israel, the GOP is Pharaoh and yet obama is not Moses. In your analogy, obama must be Moses, because Moses was a type of Christ in the Old Testament and the left believes obama is the modern day messiah. So just go ahead and say it Stephen, obama is Moses.

Then you conclude with, “Let my country have a future. Quit inflicting your foolishness on us.”

Stephen, our country was settled in the 1600’s, and by 1776 we were demanding the British to leave us alone. From 1776 until the first socialist reared their ugly heads in America, we had freedom and progress. But somewhere between WWI and WWII socialism reared its ugly head and we have been going downhill ever since. So I and most conservatives would say to the liberal socialists, “Let my country have a future. Quit inflicting your foolishness on us.”

Stephen also said to dbs:

“I am sick of watching the Republicans betray the interests of the nation so they can indulge their political contributors and partisan interests. Eithe you folks start putting country first, or me and every other American are going to hold your party accountable for their misplaced priorities.”

Can we say 2010 elections? Before you start threatening what you and other Americans are going to do, you better take into account who is on yourside. And before you hold conservatives accountable; perhaps you should look at obama’s dropping poll numbers; Oh, I forgot, the left don’t pay any attention to polls unless they are against conservatives. Stephen, you ARE “sick”, but don’t blame it on Republicans.

Posted by: Conservativethinker at July 25, 2011 9:15 AM
Comment #326382

Donald Trump was interviewed on Fox News this morning and he said, “if America does default, the only name that will be remembered in history for the default, is President Obama”.

I agree with tdobson on this.

Posted by: Mike at July 25, 2011 9:19 AM
Comment #326383

Tdobson: “…Obama will be ultimately blamed if the country goes into default.”

This reminds me about how Bush felt he would “ultimately” be vindicated. He’s still not but let’s give it more time. I just posted yesterday showing the public opinion polls favoring a direction far different than the GOP wants to take our country. The public would have to be pretty foolish to say, “We agree with the Democrats and we disagree with the Republicans but we blame the Democrats for this mess because they did not back down when the Republicans were sticking to their principles.”

Posted by: Adam Ducker at July 25, 2011 9:20 AM
Comment #326384

Hi SD
BHO has governed from the center right,a little right of Nixon. He might have made a good 1990’s president. One can hope he has learned. The right will never admit to the presidency of a black,ever. There is no amount of compromise possible. If they could hang him from a tree they would. So what. Up theirs. We have more important things to do.
The Constitution is clear. The credit of the United States of America cannot be questioned,period. Whether this is by the Republicans, Moody’s,or any other bunch of traitors it is against the law. Time for BHO to grow a pair and enforce the Constitutional mandate he is sworn to uphold.

Posted by: bills at July 25, 2011 9:30 AM
Comment #326385

“This reminds me about how Bush felt he would “ultimately” be vindicated. He’s still not but let’s give it more time.”

Adam, this just reinforces my point. Obama will be blamed for all problems during his administration,

Posted by: tdobson at July 25, 2011 9:30 AM
Comment #326386

Yeah bills, try playing the race card. It has worked so well in the past. The problem is, most Americans don’t care if the president is white, black, green or yellow. If his policies work, he will be a hero. If they don’t, he will be considered one of the worst presidents in history.

“The Constitution is clear. The credit of the United States of America cannot be questioned,period.”
You must have a different copy of the constitution than I do. Can you point out the article that forbids anyone from questioning the credit of the United States, or anything eles for that matter?

Posted by: tdobson at July 25, 2011 9:39 AM
Comment #326387

“This reminds me about how Bush felt he would “ultimately” be vindicated. He’s still not but let’s give it more time. I just posted yesterday showing the public opinion polls favoring a direction far different than the GOP wants to take our country. The public would have to be pretty foolish to say, “We agree with the Democrats and we disagree with the Republicans but we blame the Democrats for this mess because they did not back down when the Republicans were sticking to their principles.”

Posted by: Adam Ducker at July 25, 2011 09:20 AM

Adam, I know the left has used Bush as the whipping boy for the past 3 years, but this debt “crisis” is not about Bush; it’s about President Obama’s ability to lead. And his career résumé of 1/3 of a term as US Senator, and years of community organizing, with absolutely no business experience which qualifies him for nothing. As Trump said this morning, the only name that will be remembered is that of Obama; remember “the buck stops here”, http://www.trumanlibrary.org/buckstop.htm

The inexperience of Obama is beginning to show.

Posted by: Mike at July 25, 2011 9:40 AM
Comment #326388

Stephen, When one party has total control of the government for 2 years, WHO ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO BLAME?

Posted by: KAP at July 25, 2011 9:42 AM
Comment #326389

“The right will never admit to the presidency of a black,ever. There is no amount of compromise possible. If they could hang him from a tree they would. So what. Up theirs. We have more important things to do.”

Posted by: bills at July 25, 2011 09:30 AM

This is a disgusting racist statement and typical of the left. It was Democrats, Independents, and Republicans who voted for Obama and his failed promise of change. When a president is voted in by some 55% of voters, it is all parties voting for him.

Posted by: mike at July 25, 2011 9:47 AM
Comment #326390

SD

The country decided to take this path to its destiny in 2010. It will choose its next path in 2012. Something tells me that you do not have faith that the people will choose the path YOU want in 2012, so you are trying to use fear to get what you want now.

And, let us learn from our mistakes? Being a trillion in debt is a mistake, being trillions in debt is a HUGE mistake.
How are we to learn from our mistakes, if the only mistakes you acknowledge are the other sides?

The lefts problem is that we ARE reconsidering how we do business, but since it does not adhere to the lefts political principles, their agenda and their way of governing without question, it is the end of the country.

Kind of telling that the one’s most afraid are the one’s most dependent.

Posted by: kctim at July 25, 2011 10:02 AM
Comment #326391

SD

The country has been going downhill for decades. Those decades were mainly under democratic control. Who had control of government when Alger Hiss signed the Dumbarton Oaks papers? Who had control when Harry Dexter White continually sold us out? Who had control when scores of Soviet agents were in high level positions in our government? Who sold us out to China? How did the Federal Reserve get instituted and by whom?

The answers to the above questions leads one to believe something other than what you penned above. That is nothing new. You continually call it a debate when you fail to acknowledge your socialist, leftist friends have power and decimate the country and then call it a fault of some other source. You fail to acknowledge that the faults, errors, mistakes and outright negligence and irresponsibility of the left to do their job according to the oath they swore to.

As I have stated before, your broken record is stuck and your Elmer’s glue is just not working. Your credibility is in the toilet and somebody is itching to flush it.

Posted by: tom humes at July 25, 2011 10:21 AM
Comment #326393

tdobson-
History will record that Obama offered the Republicans a way out, a debt ceiling increase that was clean, plain and simple. It will recall that he warned them of the consequences, and they did not listen. it will recall that a major chunk of the Republican Party said that it would not raise the debt ceiling under any circumstances.

How does that square with it being Obama’s fault? Obama’s signed a debt ceiling increase twice at least, and has never refused to do so.

The Republicans are playing political games with our nation’s full faith and credit. They should be free to play with fire, but not where they might burn our economy to the ground.

Conservativethinker-
They expect a deal to be made. That’s all that’s keeping a panic from occuring. If we don’t have a deal within a week, though, it will be a different story. All they’re counting on now, at this point, is that your party isn’t as ****ing insane as they think you might be.

You doubt it would be that bad. Well, Republicans have underestimated the size, scope, and effect of every political ****-up they’ve inflicted on this country for the last ten years. They’re blinded by their love of best-case scenarios for their political stunts.

Your folks did the tax cuts, and underestimated the shortfall on revenue. Your folks went through spending estimates on the wars and the Medicare benefit, underestimated their cost. Bush and Hank Paulson failed to get a true estimate of what the cost of letting Lehman Brothers would be, and the Republican Party as a whole failed to properly estimate the costs of not getting a bailout immediately.

I don’t care for Republican estimates of how bad these crises can get. They’re self-servingly low.

You say Americans are Israel, the GOP is Pharaoh and yet obama is not Moses. In your analogy, obama must be Moses, because Moses was a type of Christ in the Old Testament and the left believes obama is the modern day messiah. So just go ahead and say it Stephen, obama is Moses.

Tortured as hell, that logic. Moses was not a type of Christ. Christ, though, in one of the Gospels, was portrayed as the new Moses. Regardless, though, I don’t see Obama as a Messiah, or anything like that. That is only the suggestion of right-wingers trying to suggest that folks who like Obama take their appreciation to a highly irrational level.

So, I’m not calling Obama Moses for any reason.

Stephen, our country was settled in the 1600’s, and by 1776 we were demanding the British to leave us alone. From 1776 until the first socialist reared their ugly heads in America, we had freedom and progress. But somewhere between WWI and WWII socialism reared its ugly head and we have been going downhill ever since. So I and most conservatives would say to the liberal socialists, “Let my country have a future. Quit inflicting your foolishness on us.”

Oh, the folks you’re calling liberal socialist just ruined it all.

As for this country going downhill since the days of FDR…

How convenient. Let’s forget the fact that we won WWII, that we built the greatest, richest economy on the face of the planet. Let’s forget that we launched a space program that put a man on the moon, and created a scientific revolution across the board. Let’s forget this nation winning the Cold War, and becoming the sole superpower.

Downhill my ass. America wasn’t better off before FDR.

Ever since the Republicans started accumulating power, they’ve been using it to cast away one advantage after another, and pressuring the Democrats to do the same.

And to do what? To return the tycoons and the CEOs, the financiers and speculators to the power they had before 1929? To restore that same bubble-prone economy that got us in that mess that caused the Great Depression?

We went several decades before making a screw-up anywhere near that size again. Your people intervene, and we’re screwed up again. I don’t think it’s a coincidence, I think your party’s economic and fiscal policies are genuinely toxic for our economy.

Let my country have a future. Stop trying to trade it off for your failed past.

Can we say 2010 elections? Before you start threatening what you and other Americans are going to do, you better take into account who is on yourside. And before you hold conservatives accountable; perhaps you should look at obama’s dropping poll numbers; Oh, I forgot, the left don’t pay any attention to polls unless they are against conservatives. Stephen, you ARE “sick”, but don’t blame it on Republicans.

Whatever mandate the Republicans thought they had, they squandered. Their mandate was to create jobs. since then, unemployment’s gotten worse. And why shouldn’t it? The Republicans try to improve the economy by firing people, cutting funds, embracing austerity.

You’re not in a position to appeal to your popularity at this point. You’ve only managed to make everybody look bad. You haven’t regained your prestige.

Mike-
Yeah, Donald Trump, the guy who is himself responsible for three or four bankruptcies. That you take a huckster like him seriously is symptomatic of why your party is so bad with money and financial matters.

As for business experience? Bush had business experience. He took prosperity and made it into ruin, surplus and made it into deficit. When you folks talk about running the government like a business (me, I think you should run it like a government), my question is, are many Republicans experienced at running one well?

You criticize Obama for lacking experience, but it seems like all the experience your people bring to the table doesn’t result in your people getting it right.

bills-
The sticking point is that Congress is given the power to issue debt, not the President. As for governing from the right, I don’t believe he does. What’s really going on is that the President and Republicans in Congress are swinging each other around, the Republicans doing their best to tie his hands and keep stuff he would otherwise sign into law from reaching his desk.

It’s not enough to have a President who is progressive. He can’t write the laws we need.

There’s a reason I don’t buy the blame game that the Republicans push: I learned very early from a fairly conservative teacher the intricacies of our Constitutional system, and the system in Congress that’s built upon it. I understand the disproportionate pull of committees on the process. So, I’m not apt to pin blame on Obama for what Congress should be doing, or for what Republicans and their filibustering inflicted on us.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 25, 2011 11:05 AM
Comment #326394

“Scare tactics.”

The Chief Executive, Treasury, the Federal Reserve, Democratic leaders in the House & Senate, AND Republican leaders such as McConnell, Boehner, and Paul Ryan have all warned about the posssible catastrophe that would occur were the debt ceiling not raised.

What is wrong with you people? Do you really imagine there are no consequences to the path you’ve chosen? Moody’s and S&P, the credit rating agencies, have already issued warnings that US debt is under review.

You’re playing with fire, and you either don’t understand it, or worse, you do understand it, and opt to place advancing the ideology of your party over the good of the country, even to the extent of intentionally harming the country, and hoping Obama gets the blame.

There is no excuse. I am utterly disgusted with the Republican Tea Party.

Posted by: phx8 at July 25, 2011 11:09 AM
Comment #326395

SD: “Regardless, though, I don’t see Obama as a Messiah, or anything like that. That is only the suggestion of right-wingers trying to suggest that folks who like Obama take their appreciation to a highly irrational level.”

That is the price liberals pay for having a candidate we are excited about that is qualified enough to win the White House. I’ve not so far met a liberal that treated Obama as a Messiah but it’s hard to go a day without finding a conservative that claims we do.

Phx8: “What is wrong with you people?”

Michelle Bachmann said it would be fine. Shouldn’t that be good enough?

Posted by: Adam Ducker at July 25, 2011 12:07 PM
Comment #326398

Republicans want to portray Democrats as being slavish followers of Obama because it would be rather embarrassing if they trusted and supported a leader the way they did Bush, with all the results that came of that, and Democrats were not similarly worshipful.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 25, 2011 12:16 PM
Comment #326399

Adam,
Romney is the only GOP presidential candidate with enough brains and experience to stay away from the debt ceiling debacle.

Stephen,
That is as good an explanation as any I’ve heard for the whole thing about Democrats being slavish worshippers of Obama. It never made sense to me. Like most progressives, I can go on and on about the disappointments Obama has dished out to the left. The explicit religious imagery about a ‘Messiah’ is even more confusing. It doesn’t have anything to do with anything. It seems like a weird statement that’s just hanging out there. Huh? However, it makes sense if it’s viewed as a kind of psychological projection on the part of all those followers of Bush, people who remained silent and in lockstep while Bush ran up the national tab. Those people are often religious fundamentalists and accustomed to following a leader, be it secular or divine. That’s how they see the world. That’s how they roll.

Posted by: phx8 at July 25, 2011 12:28 PM
Comment #326402

tdobson
The 14th amendment. Read it.

SD
The debt involved has already been approved by congress. The ceiling is a notification,a report,an acceptance. Follow advice above.

Posted by: bills at July 25, 2011 12:53 PM
Comment #326403

“Republicans want to portray Democrats as being slavish followers of Obama”

And yet, on a daily basis, far-left Dems attempt to portray anyone who dares question leftist ideology as unintelligent racist simpletons.

Or how, despite the fact that they want to be left alone, religious fundamentalists are the ones who worship a leader, even though they do not demand that leader provide for them from cradle to grave.
“I worship you, leave me alone.”
“I worship you, give me, give me, give me.
Not hard to see what the truth really is.

Posted by: kctim at July 25, 2011 12:57 PM
Comment #326406

bills-
spending has been approved, but the Debt Ceiling is the legal authorization to raise money to add to that debt.

Spending is not the same as taking out debt. if we weren’t running a deficit, thanks to the Republicans, the debt ceiling would be of less concern, perhaps even of no concern.

kctim-
Some. As for wanting to be left alone… well, if you want to be left alone, you have to leave others alone as well. religious fundamentalists in this country haven’t done that. They’ve insisted on dictating policy to the rest of us, as well as its lack.

Also, really, you’re never going to get left alone if the stuff you insist on being left alone on poses a threat to other people’s interests. People don’t get to simply satisfy their interests at other’s expense without response. This is the basic naivete of libertarianism.

The best way to be left alone is to agree to compromises that give up some right to be left alone in exchange for maintaining some basic autonomy, that and designing regulations so they are less about telling your precisely what you must do, and more about avoiding some outcomes undesired by all.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 25, 2011 1:42 PM
Comment #326408

SD
If you can see the few examples of where you get upset when religious fundies insist dictating policy on you, then why can you not see the tons of examples of where the far-left insists on dictating policy and running lives?

Individual rights pose no threat to the rights of others. Individual interests though, do pose a threat to individual rights.

You cannot expect someone to compromise with you, when you are not willing to compromise with them.

Posted by: kctim at July 25, 2011 2:15 PM
Comment #326409

Here is a fundamental exercise in understanding the left.

When they form their words a g, p and q are interchangeable.
As are the m and n
As are the c and o
As are the b and d
As are the v and w
And so on the pix is pretty clear. What they say and what they mean are different. How they say what they mean is not exactly what they mean. A little change here; a little change there and the whole meaning and intent changes. That is how the left operates. WB is the elementary use of libspeak.

According to SD above the republicans must cave in to democrats to be anything viable. But if the republicans have a position they hold fast to and are not caving, they are going to ruin the county. Balderdash.

That position you take bastardizes your whole approach. Your talk with forked tongue(got that from an old western movie).

The left is committing terrorist activity with their scare tactics. That is nothing new. They have been doing that for decades.

I am not going to be explicit until SD and his cadres on WB show their honesty and integrity (if you have any) and show explicitly where the democrats have made mistakes, errors, bad choices, and irresponsibility. Those who have opposed you have shown that on their side. But you cowards and elitists just cannot bring it to yourselves to document where you have been wrong. Your perfection is infection.

Posted by: tom humes at July 25, 2011 2:18 PM
Comment #326410


Tom, I think you have hit on the truth. The liberals are cowards, the conservatives are prostitutes and the middle class is on it’s way down. There is no greater example of American style socialism than the progressive tax system and the artificially large middle class. Both the private and public sectors are hampered by the governments interference on behalf of labor. Union railway workers and union teachers are glaring examples of the government’s interference in the free market. Their days are numbered.

Advice to conservatives, don’t skip your weekly medical examinations.

After caving on the debt ceiling talks, Obama and the Democrats still have one thing left to do, provide cover for the conservatives on comprehensive immigration reform.

Posted by: jlw at July 25, 2011 4:12 PM
Comment #326412

Stephen opined with fear and trepidation:

“Conservativethinker-

They expect a deal to be made. That’s all that’s keeping a panic from occuring. If we don’t have a deal within a week, though, it will be a different story.”

And to this stupid remark I say (in a panicked loud scream), “WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE”!!!

“Tortured as hell, that logic. Moses was not a type of Christ. Christ, though, in one of the Gospels, was portrayed as the new Moses. Regardless, though, I don’t see Obama as a Messiah, or anything like that. That is only the suggestion of right-wingers trying to suggest that folks who like Obama take their appreciation to a highly irrational level.”

Stephen, if you only knew half as much as you think you know about the Bible, you would be a dangerous man. Talking to you about the Bible is like talking to a three year old. Moses certainly is a type of Christ. This is basic theology: Why don’t you search “How is Moses a type of Christ”; I got 23,800,000 results. You can certainly be a dingbat sometimes…

As for obama being the messiah of the left:

“Is Obama the Messiah? People are asking these days and it’s not so hard to understand why: the desperate throngs, the tears, the great awakening of a slumbering demographic. All that larger symbolism.”

“The salty 62-year old Chris Matthews of MSNBC puts the phenomenon of Obama on the good book scale, telling the NY Observer that “I’ve been following politics since I was about 5. I’ve never seen anything like this. This is bigger than Kennedy. [Obama] comes along, and he seems to have the answers. This is the New Testament. This is surprising.”

“Timothy Noah has been on his “Messiah Watch” for over a year now for online magazine Slate though he says he doesn’t suggest it is Obama that believes in himself as the second coming but rather “that a few excitable souls in the media bear the apparant conviction that Obama is the Redeemer.”

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2008/02/obama_the_messiah.html

“Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan, another powerful Chicago-based political figure associated with the Rev. Jeremiah Wright and other long-time associates of Democratic Party presidential candidate Barack Obama, is leaving no doubt about what he thinks of the leader in the campaign for the White House.”

He says when Obama talks “the Messiah is absolutely speaking.”


http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=77539

“Apparently, Senator Barack Hussein Obama, D-Illinois, is the Messiah. The New York Times reported on Sunday that in Obama’s time at Harvard Law School, he “developed a leadership style based more on furthering consensus than on imposing his own ideas. Surrounded by students who enjoyed the sound of their own voices, Mr. Obama cast himself as an eager listener, sometimes giving warring classmates the impression that he agreed with all of them at once.”

http://townhall.com/columnists/benshapiro/2007/01/31/is_barack_obama_the_messiah

Yes Stephen, he was certainly considered by his followers (all of them) to be the Messiah.

And Yes Stephen, obama is dropping in the polls; the markets did not crash; and yes thank God, the House Republicans are not going to let tha bamster get away with playing politics and passing a Bill that gets him past the election of 2012. Obama is such a jerk and the fear of being called a racist if objecting to obama has flittered away.

Posted by: Conservativethinker at July 25, 2011 4:16 PM
Comment #326413

CT

I had a dream. Not like the famous one of recent years, but on August 4, 2011, which is my mothers birthday and also Obama’s birthday, SD penned for WB a post that headlined this way. “I Was Wrong On The Debt Issue”.

Now the Bible says in the latter days old men will dream dreams and young men will see visions.

Hallelujah!!!!

Posted by: tom humes at July 25, 2011 4:50 PM
Comment #326416

kctim-
Has it occured to you that I just haven’t logicked myself into a corner the way you have?

For my part, I believe any nation that is capable of governing itself will have to have laws that get into people’s business. For the individual to have complete sovereignty, there must be no laws that can compel them to do anything. But if you can’t compel anybody under the law to do anything, of course, nobody can compel a bunch of thieves and gangsters not to kill you and steal your property, among other things.

So, what are we looking out for? Well, something close to what we already got. First, rule of law, so your leaders can’t simply do whatever they want while you languish in slavery. Second, a democratic and republican form of government, where you choose your leaders, and hold some form of accountability over those who would impose laws on you.

We can’t do without government, so we create a form that can’t take things too far from our interests without losing power.

The problem for conservatives and Republicans is that not everybody agrees with their choices in terms of the form of government.

tom humes-
Keep dreaming.

On other matters, the layout is simple: the Republicans only control the House of Representatives. They can’t pass anything without a Democratic President’s signature, and even that comes only after it passes a Democratic Senate.

If you think Republicans can push a hard right agenda unscathed through that gauntlet, you’re still dreaming. There’s a reason Republicans have only gotten 23 bills passed in their six months in office.

You can name-call me, but only another election is going to change those chambers, and the Republicans will likely have little to show for their two year reign of error in that chamber.

Except, perhaps, provoking a whole unnecessary sovereign debt crisis, shaking the foundations of our nation’s finances. But really, that’s not something you should want featured prominently on your resume.

jlw-
If they had caved, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. The truth is, Republicans haven’t responded positively to one deal, and the deals keep getting worse and worse as they proceed. Look at the deal in the spring. The Republicans gave themselves no room to avoid being the bad guys, so they ended up with a rotten deal.

They keep on picking these hostages they can’t kill without risking huge public backlashes, so when the deadlines loom, and people balk at their deals, their counterparts know that all they have to do is keep the pressure on, and they’ll fold, so long as they remain sane.

Conservativethinker-
A ridiculous amount of verbiage to repeat the same stupid claim. I hang around enough at Daily Kos that I know most Democrats don’t think that way about him. In fact, for many, he’s treated like Brian (not the messiah, just a very naughty boy.)

Republicans, however, just can’t seem to understand how tight the knots are that they’re getting tied into over him. Republicans are getting offered marvellous deals, but because they can’t let Obama have a victory, or because they can’t let old Grover Norquist down, or because they fear the Tea Party, they’re just failing to come to any deal.

And because they can’t come to any deal, they’re throwing away their opportunities to get a good deal, and in the process, permanently alienate much of Obama’s base.

Instead, they’re forcing this thing down to the wire, down to the point where they may just end up pushing a clean debt ceiling bill, just to avoid default.

You’re so intent on defeating Obama that you can’t see that your politics is defeating itself.

All-
And that would be my point, to anybody who would listen: The Republican’s attempt to grab power by creating this crisis is not helping it at all, much less helping conservatism. It’s only serving to box the party in on policy, to the point where it’s unable to actually act as part of a functioning government.

I think the GOP, as it’s composed now, is heading for its fall. Any GOP that rises from the ashes will have to repudiate its former iteration’s actions.

The question is whether the GOP takes this country with it. Frankly, I think the party and its hopes for 2012 are more expendable than the foundations of our economy.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 25, 2011 5:52 PM
Comment #326419

Our national debt is owned by every taxpaying citizen today and for many years to come. Taxpayers are the ones who will be required to repay the debt, and non-taxpayers will ride along on our checkbook.

The clamor for more spending and more debt is not coming from the majority of taxpayers, but rather, from the beneficiaries who pay no income tax. Those who pay no federal income tax are demanding those who do to pay more.

Both parties are responsible for the spending and debt we have today. The rep party changed hands in 2010 with conservatives now in charge. The dem party didn’t change hands in 2010, but lost seats of power with liberals still in charge of the party.

With conservatives in charge of the House, they finally have the opportunity to stop increasing the debt limit to pay for more spending. Dem conservatives have joined them in this effort as is revealed by the latest votes in both the House and Senate.

The House overwhelmingly voted for cutting and capping spending with a constitutional amendment. The Senate vote on this bill was much closer in favor than I ever would have imagined. Clearly, the conservative position is in ascendancy and the liberal position in free fall.

What’s a liberal to do? Without the Mother’s milk of political pandering, they will wither even further and become irrelevant. This is their greatest fear. Loss of the power of spending others peoples money to gain support is what is driving the liberals in the country and on Watchblog.

Reps couldn’t, or wouldn’t stop excessive spending and joined dems and libs at the public pig trough. Now, Reps can’t spend freely without incurring the wrath of conservatives who have acquired majority power. Some dems, and all libs however, have not received that message…yet…from their constituents.

The debate raging about increasing the debt limit is, in actuality, a debate over spending. Leaders of both parties and the president would like to present a plan that entails no pain. That’s not possible. There will be pain if the debt limit is increased and there will be pain if the debt limit is not increased. The only question is…when will the pain occur and in what magnitude?

The sooner the cause of the pain is recognized and treated, the sooner the patient will recover. Conservatives believe in acting today to cure the problem and the pain associated with it. Liberals wish to delay the cure and treat the pain with more medication.

A broken arm will eventually heal whether it is properly treated or not. Properly treated, the bone will heal and result in a functioning arm. Left untreated, and given enough pain pills to endure the process, the bone will heal and result in an arm that doesn’t function properly.

In either case, the arm survives; either as one that functions properly, or one that is merely a club hanging from ones shoulder.

We have and are witnessing the club arm effect in the European Union. A few remaining healthy body parts in the EU are attempting to keep all alive. The atrophy in the arm is killing the entire body. It can barely feed itself and is incapable of fending off threats. It must capitulate to to the very ones who refused to properly treat the arm when it was first broken.

For them, proper healing of the arm is no longer possible. The EU will break and fall when the strongest members recognize the futility of continued pain medication with no proper healing.

We here in the US can still mend the broken arm. We can be made whole again. We need not endure the miserable fate of Europe.

We must cut and cap spending now. And, we must assure that we never come to this crossroads again. That can be accomplished with a balanced budget amendment.

Let us prepare for the pain now, and set the bone properly. We can be healthy again.

Posted by: Royal Flush at July 25, 2011 6:18 PM
Comment #326420

“The enormous deficit challenges have been clearly articulated to voters, as the parties seek unified control of Congress, where the Republicans are the majority in the House and the Democrats in the Senate. Mr. Obama will veto any debt legislation unless it extends the ability of the nation to borrow into 2013, the White House chief of staff, William M. Daley, said on Sunday.

Mr. Daley, appearing on the NBC News program “Meet the Press,” said that world markets and the American economy would not tolerate continued doubts brought on by periodic fights over the debt ceiling. “The president believes that we must get this uncertainty out of the system,” Mr. Daley said.

Minutes after Mr. Daley promised a veto, Senator Tom Coburn, Republican of Oklahoma, said on the same program that Mr. Daley’s remarks were “a ridiculous position, because that’s what he’s going to get presented with.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/25/us/politics/25debt.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha2

It is quite clear from the president’s remarks, that it is his intention to veto any compromise that doesn’t increase the debt limit to totally fund government through the next election. Why is that?

The president claims he will use the veto to avoid the issue in the next election. Any veto of a combined legislative plan will place the blame entirely at the presidents feet and the consequences on his desk. He is willing to veto a compromise, short of funding until after the election, because he does not care as much for the nation as he does the next election.

How does the president believe that a veto on a compromise bill, with funding that doesn’t extend pass the election, will help him win another term?

I don’t know. Does anyone?

Posted by: Royal Flush at July 25, 2011 6:43 PM
Comment #326421

“Yes Stephen, he was certainly considered by his followers (all of them) to be the Messiah.”

CT,

Please! The Messiah label was always a conservative invention.

This is oddly cited as evidence that his followers considered him to be The Messiah: “…in Obama’s time at Harvard Law School, he “developed a leadership style based more on furthering consensus than on imposing his own ideas.” Strange definition of Messiah.

So, he is not a Messianic dictator, in the usual sense of the term, bent on imposing his socialist agenda on America. His Messianic leadership style is one of attempting to reconcile divergent political views into an actionable consensus.

I don’t think that committed conservatives and liberals are pleased with that type of leadership style. However, it is what most Americans seem to think is most desirable. If he could actually do that, he might deserve the Messiah label.


Posted by: Rich at July 25, 2011 6:45 PM
Comment #326422

RF,
You answer your own question in your comment: “… World markets and the American economy would not tolerate continued doubts brought on by periodic fights over the debt ceiling.”

Here is a comment by the British Business Secretary”
… The biggest threat to the world financial system comes from a few right-wing nutters in the American congress…”
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/24/us-britain-cable-congress-idUSTRE76N16V20110724

There has been plenty of time to resolve the issue. The debt ceiling has already been extended from the May deadline to August 2nd, and that required some financial trickery including use of Social Security funds. Kicking the can down the road merely turns a politically created problem into a perpetual political problem, and risks paralyzing the system. Finally, the investors of the world, along with Moody’s and S&P, will make their own conclusions. There does not have to be a default for the credit agencies to downgrade US debt, and that would be disastrous.

Posted by: phx8 at July 25, 2011 6:52 PM
Comment #326423

SD

“The problem for conservatives and Republicans is that not everybody agrees with their choices in terms of the form of government.”

Keep on dreamin’.

You must dream for wisdom. It is very necessary to get ahead in this world.

“And because they can’t come to any deal, they’re throwing away their opportunities to get a good deal, and in the process, permanently alienate much of Obama’s base.”

Where do you find such pansy stuff. Democrats have not put forth a viable bill. All they do is talk, talk, lie, lie. Then they say its the republicans wanting to do in the country. Such trite tripe.

All of what the WH liar has said is aimed at 2012 elections. It is plain to see that he is running for another term and let the country be damned.

Posted by: tom humes at July 25, 2011 7:19 PM
Comment #326425

phx8 writes; “There does not have to be a default for the credit agencies to downgrade US debt, and that would be disastrous.”

That’s correct as far as I have read. The rating agencies want major spending cuts to go along with increasing the debt limit.

Periodic fights over the debt ceiling are nothing new despite obama’s claim that a veto now would prevent them. Prevent them until after the 2012 election is what obama desires. If obama gets his wish, he can then campaign on his veto being responsible for not crashing the economy. If he doesn’t get his wish, and vetos a compromise, he enters the race as ineffectual in promoting compromise and assumes responsibility for any “crashing of the economy”.

It is remarkable how politically inept this president appears to be. He is staking our economy, and his election, on the premise that conservatives will cave. I don’t believe they will. If I am correct, his veto will spell his downfall. If the markets don’t downgrade our credit rating despite the lack of a debt increase, the president looks stupid. If the markets do downgrade our credit rating in spite of a debt increase, the president looks stupid.

Posted by: Royal Flush at July 25, 2011 7:20 PM
Comment #326429

Royal Flush,

You criticize the President for doing exactly what the Republicans demanded: a long term deficit reduction plan or no agreement to raising the debt ceiling.

It’s just like the Bush tax cuts. The Republicans pass the tax cuts with a sunset provision because of the long term debt problems that would emerge after 2010. But when 2010 comes, what do they do? They want them permanent but settle for an extension through 2012. Now, they again want them permanent under the long term deficit reduction plan.

I thought elephants had long memory?

Posted by: Rich at July 25, 2011 8:07 PM
Comment #326431

RF,
You misunderstand Moody’s and S&P and their attitude towards US debt. They do not care whether the US raises taxes or cuts spending. They care about whether has the capacity to pay the debt- which we certainly do- and the willingness to pay the obligation. As far as the rating agencies are concerned, the reason behind not paying are unimportant. Not paying is what counts. Threatening to default is bad enough, because even that risks a downgrade in creditworthiness.


Why would anyone want to continue extending the problem by extending thge deadline? It’s a simple thing. If the legislature is going to do it, then they will do it. It can literally be done in an hour, with one written sentence. Further delay makes no sense.

Posted by: phx8 at July 25, 2011 8:13 PM
Comment #326444

Royal Flush-

With conservatives in charge of the House, they finally have the opportunity to stop increasing the debt limit to pay for more spending.

Smart move, right after you okayed a budget that already obligated the government to spend that money.

The Problem with Republicans is that they don’t use math to plan their budgets, they use wishful thinking.

Clearly, the conservative position is in ascendancy and the liberal position in free fall.

Actually, majorities favor our approach, especially when you tell them what government’s not going to be paying for any longer.

You only see spending in terms of politics, and that is a disastrous approach.

The debt limit is not about spending, it’s about getting the money to pay for what Congress has already run up the bill on. The Republicans are attempting to do through hostage situations what they don’t have the political wherewithal to do by normal means.

Spare me your crappy metaphors. Your math doesn’t add up. And you know what? The pain you’re talking about is economic pain, which for some misbegotten reason, you actually think this country needs more of. We don’t need to balancing the budget on the back of a broken economy, much less breaking it for the long term by failing to pay our bills on time.

It is quite clear from the president’s remarks, that it is his intention to veto any compromise that doesn’t increase the debt limit to totally fund government through the next election. Why is that?

First, because a short-term debt ceiling rise won’t keep our credit intact. Second because any Washington politician who has brains shouldn’t want to demonstrate how broken Washington is at this point, lest they take a boot to the ass while they’re trying to run for re-election.

You don’t seem to understand: our unpopularity for this mess you’re creating isn’t translating to your popularity. You’re beating the **** out of your own popularity while you’re trying to kill ours.

Quit basicing your policy decisions around making the President look bad. Start worrying about yourselves. Start worrying what kind of damage your politics is about to do to this country, and start remembering who got the blame when your people pulled similar stunts in 2008.

tom humes-
Wisdom, eh? You mean agreeing with you.

Sorry, fellow, keep on dreaming. I’m not going to agree to a default on my country’s debt. I’m also not going to praise your people for taking this country’s economic future hostage.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 25, 2011 9:44 PM
Comment #326449

“All-

And that would be my point, to anybody who would listen: The Republican’s attempt to grab power by creating this crisis is not helping it at all, much less helping conservatism. It’s only serving to box the party in on policy, to the point where it’s unable to actually act as part of a functioning government.

I think the GOP, as it’s composed now, is heading for its fall. Any GOP that rises from the ashes will have to repudiate its former iteration’s actions.

The question is whether the GOP takes this country with it. Frankly, I think the party and its hopes for 2012 are more expendable than the foundations of our economy.”

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 25, 2011 05:52 PM

SD is living in this fantasy world; evidently he has no access to the news media, news papers, or internet news, because if he did, he would know the only crisis being created is when obama takes to the air waves and creates it. I have not heard one conservative say we are in a crisis.

Are the conservatives “boxed in a policy” praise God, yes we are. We are boxed into Cut, Cap, and Balance. Exactly where we want to be…

So SD thinks we are in for a fall; well here we go again with the prophet Stephen, predicting the future. I’ll tell you what I think Stephen; I think the hopes of the Republican Party in 2012, rest upon their ability to hold the line and not cave to the lies (yes I said LIES) of obama and the dems.

RF said:

“What’s a liberal to do? Without the Mother’s milk of political pandering, they will wither even further and become irrelevant. This is their greatest fear. Loss of the power of spending others peoples money to gain support is what is driving the liberals in the country and on Watchblog.”

Here, here Royal; you are absolutely correct…

To all liberals:

Instead of telling the conservatives what the Republican Party is doing wrong, why don’t you waste your energy contacting your reps and senators, or even the leaders on both parties, since they are the ones deciding what to do about the debt? I promise you, the conservatives are on the phones and email. You always have the option of “entering into your closet” and praying to your messiah that he don’t sell you out. It is a given that the dems will sell out obama. If the skewed polls of the obama worshipping MSM were actually in favor of the dems, they would not cave to Republicans; on the other hand, if the polls were actually against what the Republican House is doing, the House would never have the nerve to hold the line.

Obama keeps getting on TV and saying the exact same thing; he’s like a broken record (for you young liberals who have heads full of mush Broken record refers to phonograph, a vinyl recording) and he says the same things over and over. He sounds like a spoiled little kid whining and crying for not getting his way.

Posted by: Conservativethinker at July 25, 2011 10:17 PM
Comment #326458
(for you young liberals who have heads full of mush Broken record refers to phonograph, a vinyl recording)

Do you seriously think I’m that dumb?

BTW, I emailed Nikki Tsongas & Scott Brown a long time ago about this. I haven’t emailed John Kerry though, he’s a sack of crap.

So SD thinks we are in for a fall; well here we go again with the prophet Stephen, predicting the future. I’ll tell you what I think Stephen; I think the hopes of the Republican Party in 2012, rest upon their ability to hold the line and not cave to the lies (yes I said LIES) of obama and the dems.

In that case the GOP has no hope in 2012. The debt limit will be extended by mid-August at the latest. There’s no way the GOP has the balls to cut government spending by 44% overnight (never mind the havoc that such a sudden drop in government expenditures would wreak on the economy).

Posted by: Warped Reality at July 25, 2011 10:54 PM
Comment #326459

Conservativethinker-

SD is living in this fantasy world; evidently he has no access to the news media, news papers, or internet news, because if he did, he would know the only crisis being created is when obama takes to the air waves and creates it. I have not heard one conservative say we are in a crisis.

The only thing creating this crisis is that Republicans have refused to pass a debt ceiling. I know this because I actually read all those things, and don’t just seek out my political allies on the opinion page, who will all agree with what I believe anyways.

You have not heard one conservative say we are in a crisis. Well, maybe that’s because of your strict definition of a conservative. Or perhaps it’s because most conservative will not call something they themselves are inflicting on the country a crisis.

Are the conservatives “boxed in a policy” praise God, yes we are. We are boxed into Cut, Cap, and Balance. Exactly where we want to be…

You mean supporting a plan that has absolutely no chance of passing, while the nation heads for default?

It doesn’t matter whether you want to be there, the girl in Jaws wanted to be in the ocean. Didn’t make the water any safer.

So SD thinks we are in for a fall; well here we go again with the prophet Stephen, predicting the future. I’ll tell you what I think Stephen; I think the hopes of the Republican Party in 2012, rest upon their ability to hold the line and not cave to the lies (yes I said LIES) of obama and the dems.

I think the hopes of the Republican Party lie in creating jobs, rather than destroying them, in fixing policy, rather than breaking it. Unfortunately, the Republicans took a mandate to create jobs, and took it to mean everything but.

You can trash talk me all you want to (At thirty-one, I am old enough to remember records, especially the broken kind), but that doesn’t change the fact that the scientifically taken polls are giving overwhelming bad news for your leaders on many of their main positions.

I don’t pray to Obama when I’m in my closet. You should pray to the God I really do pray to that your people do the right things and raise the debt ceiling, because that is what will be good for this country, and that is what’s going to keep your party from making a historic mistake so costly that it ends up endangering your party for generations to come.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 25, 2011 11:22 PM
Comment #326461

ct

just for a little fun, what label do you think that broken record is on?

I am going to take a couple of guesses.

MCA-My Crappy Attitude

DECCA-Democrats Entertain Really Rotten Armageddon

RCA-Royally Crummy Analysis

Then again it could be another label.

Posted by: tom humes at July 25, 2011 11:46 PM
Comment #326463

Stephen, Bush raised our debt to 10.6T in 8 years. The first 2+ years of the Obama administration he raised our debt to 14+T by the time Obama leaves office in Jan 2013 he will have amassed more debt in 4 years then Bush did in 8 years. You can give all the BS you want about how great Democrats are but the only thing they are great at is spending other peoples money. The Democrats that I knew when I was growing up are long gone, those were the ones who were for the middle class people, now I wouldn’t hit a dog in the backside with one or Republican at that matter. One thing I do give the Republicans credit for is that at least they tried to send a bill to the President more then I can say for the clowns in your party. They haven’t done anything but waste Tax payers money on failed policy. Instead of working on Jobs and the economy they worked on something a majority of people didn’t want yet, that could have waited until the economy got better and that was HCR.

Posted by: KAP at July 26, 2011 12:48 AM
Comment #326464

KAP-
Don’t give me that abstract numbers crap. I know why those numbers are where they are. Two wars, one drug benefit, one big tax cuts.

YOUR POLICIES. Which your people have defended, and defended not raising taxes over.

Besides, you do realize a big reason we’re in such trouble fiscally is that economic downturn your folks refuse to do anything sane or productive about.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 26, 2011 12:58 AM
Comment #326465

But KAP, shouldn’t we give Obama another chance? He said the shovel ready jobs weren’t really shovel ready and the stimulus went to bail out the unions and bankrupt state workers; but next time he will do better. All we have to do is give him a blank check, LOL.

Posted by: Mike at July 26, 2011 1:05 AM
Comment #326470

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/opinion/sunday/24sun4.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Here’s a good piece on how much Bush policies and Obama policies have contributed to the debt. The graphic is telling.

Posted by: Warped Reality at July 26, 2011 6:34 AM
Comment #326472

KAP,

It was the last budget of the Bush administration that achieved the distinction as the largest deficit in recent history ($1.4 trillion). Obama inherited that deficit. He didn’t produce it. Don’t believe me? Well, how about the conservative CATO Institute. http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=11094

Posted by: Rich at July 26, 2011 8:30 AM
Comment #326473

Mike-
So, your brilliant plan to tank the economy is the better one? Even if the stimulus created no jobs, the Republican plans, which deliberately aimed to kick workers out of their jobs would be inferior by comparison.

The stimulus, according to reputable sources, created around three million jobs.

Don’t lecture us. Your party’s leaders are a bunch of arrogant screw-ups who feed their people BS so the rich can pay less for the government they use so much of to bail them out and pad their bottom line. But our system wasn’t built to sustain a recovery of a consumer economy without consumers, and that’s exactly the stupid crap your people are attempting. Wall Street and Corporate America, the Rich and wealth, are flush with cash, earning and maintaining greater stores of money and property than they have in decades. Unemployment is high, though, and people’s finances are tight.

Oh, have Government tighten it’s belt? Well that means everybody who depends on the government for contracts or benefits ends up getting their belt tightened, too, and our basic economic problem is that too many people have their belts tightened as it is. When Government tightens its belt, it’s not tightening it’s own, it’s tightening yours as well.

And this is one of the Republican plans. The other, so far, is to undermine the full faith and credit of the country, causing a massive recession at the very least as the value of the asset that many Americans hold comes into question. And why, because we ran out of people willing to loan to us at cheap enough rates? No. Because some brain donors in Congress either are so desperate to get their agenda advance that they’re willing to endanger the economy to do it, or they’re such idiots that they actually think this is an appropriate, harmless way to stop the accumulation of debt.

Meanwhile, the rest of America thinks your party are such idiots that when President Obama told them to give their representatives a piece of their mind, they crashed the House e-mail servers.

Congratulations on once again picking a losing cause to do your windmill tilting at.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 26, 2011 8:42 AM
Comment #326475

Warped,

A good summary of the causes of the current and future deficit problem. You would think that the policy debate would be directed to those issues. But, in our Alice in Wonderland world, they are dismissed as seemingly unimportant.

It was known at the time of passage of the Bush tax cuts that they would cause significant deficit problems beyond the 2010 period even in a fully functioning economy without two additional wars. There was a reason for the sunset provision. Now, the original proponents of the tax cuts want to simply ignore their relevance, demand a permanent extension of the cuts and claim that it is spending that causing the problem.

The impact of a severe recessionary economy on decreased federal revenue and the rise in expenditures due to the automatic stabilizers and temporary economic stimulus measures is similarly ignored. The absence of any conservative policy attention to economic and job development is telling. A viable economy is essential if the deficit problem is to adequately addressed. However, from the policy attention is gets, you would think that it is virtually irrelevant.

The final and most important long term deficit driver is health cost inflation. Again, the debate simply ignores or accepts the problem as a given and demands cuts in health care to accommodate the problem. Some solution. We won’t have health care in the future because it costs too much. Crazy, when all other industrialized nations have demonstrated fiscally viable alternatives.

Posted by: Rich at July 26, 2011 9:14 AM
Comment #326478

So all you brilliant Democrats haven’t come up with anything in the last 2 years except how to spend other peoples money. Failed policies and your answer is blame the republicans. Granted republicans helped get us in this mess but democrats didn’t have to add to it. Stephen, 2 wars that have continued, a HCR package that nobody wanted a failed stimulous, 9.2% unemployment and unemployment 9% or above for 18 months. What is the democrats fix? Raise taxes and continue with the reckless spending. That is the democrats answer.

Posted by: KAP at July 26, 2011 9:56 AM
Comment #326481

SD
Has it occured to you that you have created that corner in order to avoid a truth you cannot refute? You know darn well that people such as myself are not advocating No government regulations or laws. That what we are saying is that you cannot legislate by emotion. That we must respect individual rights or all that this country is, is lost. So spare the everybody can kill everybody if we don’t have a huge intrusive government dictating how we live our personal lives.

How are we not languishing in slavery if we are dependent on government to provide for us? When government provides for individual lives, government can dictate how those lives are lived. Govt pays for healthcare, then govt dictates how you eat, if you choose to smoke or if you can even afford it. If govt pays your rent, it dictates where you can live. On and on.
How is that not a form of slavery?

We are supposed to have a Republican form of government where individual rights are not trumped by the desires of others. Our slow transition to a majority rules democracy has led us to the divided nation we currently live in.

Of course we cannot do without government, but we sure as hell can do without a huge government. Our problems lie with the fact that we have allowed the rules to be perverted in order to push individual agendas, so people are willing to bend the rules in order to get what they desire. Taking things too far from our interests has changed from what we ourselves know is in our own best interests, to what other people thru government think is in our best interest.

“The problem for conservatives and Republicans is that not everybody agrees with their choices in terms of the form of government.”

The same is true for liberals and Democrats, Stephen. They just refuse to accept it because they think they alone know what is best for everybody else.

Posted by: kctim at July 26, 2011 11:32 AM
Comment #326493

KAP-
We’ve got actual reporting that refutes your notion that the stimulus failed. It did it’s job, to the extent it had the wherewithal to do it.

What’s made it difficult to keep the recovery going is that after the Stimulus money ran out, the Republicans insisted on tax cuts from already deficit-running state budgets, and then decided to lay people off. While the President has been adding millions of jobs with his programs, Republicans have been killing hundreds of thousands of jobs.

You’ll have to explain to me why that’s good policy.

We’re not going to have a choice about running deficits. We do have a choice about how we run it, and whether we invest in a way that helps the economy get out of trouble.

Or, we can languish, with lower than necessary revenues, thanks to high unemployment and lower economic activity.

Folks on the right these days seem to have a fantasy about how all these things work, and it’s contributed to their chronic habit of running deficit. They are confident in measures that defy the math, that rely on theorized behavioral responses. As time has gone on, the math has dominated those expected responses. Therefore, deficits.

If we want jobs, we have to do the things that actually directly create them.

kctim-
I see freedom as the consequence of well-thought out policy. Government is necessary to create the space of that freedom, even as it works as a potential threat to it.

The absence of government doesn’t mean you’re free. You need some government to help you push back against those who would use violence, wealth, or power to take away your freedom.

You’ve painted yourself into a corner by seeking out an ideal that doesn’t really exist in a pure, reductive form. True freedom emerges from a functional government that is properly constrained and properly empowered. You can’t do everything you want, but then, others can’t do everything they want to you, either. And neither can the government.

Basically, your philosophy is about straining against any authority but the ones that give you what you want to maintain your autonomy from constraint. My philosophy is about making sure that the forces that might take your freedom are balanced out by others.

It’s also, though, about submitting yourself to the rule of law, because without that fair standard on everybody’s part, the system is unjust.

The same is true for liberals and Democrats, Stephen. They just refuse to accept it because they think they alone know what is best for everybody else.

Look, the reason I take the philosophy that I do, is that I acknowledge that. In fact, I believe the constitutional system we have was constructed in recognition of that fact. Unfortunately, folks like you seem to think it’s everybody else’s obligation to stay totally out of your business.

But no government that can govern can satisfy what you want, and in the meantime, there are consequences for doing things your way that are not in the general interest.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 26, 2011 1:55 PM
Comment #326497

SD

Absolutely amazing, astounding, terrific, manner in which you convoluted, construed, converted, confounded, and corrupted the writing of kctim.

You say one thing then you speak as tho you did not say that. You believe one thing and you contradict that with the opposite view.

Stephen you are a confused 31 year old who needs to find a philosophy that does not restrain you so much.

We are going south because of big government, which is what you want.

Case in point. The debt ceiling that the president wants to raise would give him a blank check to further spend even more than he already has and in a few short months the ceiling will have to be raised again. That is absolutely irresponsible.

And those millions of jobs he created were government jobs and not needed. On private sector jobs he is still holding the shovel and scooping the road apples and calling that a solution. Well the road apples would make good fertilizer, but he would not even know how to use the fertilizer.

If you really believe that the stimulus created millions of jobs, even that is not a good solution. Hundreds of millions of dollars producing how many jobs? And how much does it cost to produce those jobs you talk about? Millions of dollars to produce a single position and that is with the government. That is calling growing government. Making government bigger. And telling the people they are not wise enough to make a lot of those decisions on their own. SOP.

Government produces nothing but grief.
Government produces nothing but constraints upon everybody. And they take your money to do it.

And that is what you keep claiming is good for us. It is good for nothing.

Posted by: tom humes at July 26, 2011 2:28 PM
Comment #326499

tom humes-
Case in point, the raising of the debt ceiling was going to be necessary regardless of what happened, simply because the government would continue to operate, and the deficit has no end in sight. Even if you elected John McCain last year, hell, Ron bloody Paul, you would still be knocking your head against that ceiling.

Probably quicker, because when your crappy fiscal measures hit the economy, they would have likely cause things to get far worse, starving the government of revenue.

The only spending problems that got us into this mess are the ones the Republicans gave us. The rest of the deficit directly follows from the fact the economy is ****ed. When the Economy is ****ed, the budget is ****ed, too. That’s always been the pattern of things. Trying to un**** the economy by attempting austerity in the midst of a downturn just gets you a deeper downturn and little progress, if any, on the deficit.

As for the rest? If you want to cling to generalized feelings about government that will never need a factual test, be my guest, but don’t expect anybody else to really believe you.

I haven’t surrendered my personal, American privilege of asking my government to see to the interests of its people. I’m really so sorry I can’t accomodate your stereotyical views on the matter, but I’ve seen too much evidence that the lack of good government is worse for people’s freedoms and fortunes than what you call big government.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 26, 2011 2:42 PM
Comment #326500

Stephen, you fail to say how much of that stimulus money it took to creat one job. Why is it that states like Ohio are starting to show black ink instead of red. It’s because the governor took the stand against the unions and actually started to cut spending. He also in the future stated that he may even cut states taxes completely.

Posted by: KAP at July 26, 2011 2:44 PM
Comment #326507

SD
The old “those who want LESS government want NO government” line is nothing but a leftist talking point and I am actually quite surprised to see you sticking with it. Especially since myself and Rhinehold have explained that to you many, many times.

“True freedom emerges from a functional government that is properly constrained and properly empowered”

Are these limits not what the crux of our disagreement is all about? I want government “properly constrained” from running my life, you want government “properly empowered” to run it for me.
You see no problem with this as long as it is constrained and empowered as you personally believe it to be, with total disregard to the beliefs of others, as long as it ‘benefits’ society as you think it should.
True freedom can only survive when the function of government is to run government. True freedom is lost when government is allowed to run lives.

“Unfortunately, folks like you seem to think it’s everybody else’s obligation to stay totally out of your business.”

No, folks like me believe it is governments ‘obligation’ to stay totally out of our business. That is why we drive the leftists so crazy. Example: Leftists are fond of screaming that government has no business telling people who they can care for and marry. But yet, they are the first ones who dictate who I must care for and give money to.
An effective government does not pick and choose.

“there are consequences for doing things your way that are not in the general interest.”

Don’t you mean the ‘general interest’ according to your beliefs? Many people believe the ‘general interest’ lies in our rights and freedoms, not our pocketbooks.

Posted by: kctim at July 26, 2011 4:32 PM
Comment #326529

SD

”..the raising of the debt ceiling was going to be necessary regardless of what happened”..

That is exactly why those in the Congress that want to slash spending are doing it that way. It the ceiling is raised, Congress will spend to the limit and we do that all over again. Spending is the first and primary thing congress must do. Jobs will follow. Raising the debt limit will produce not one job. Raising taxes will not produce a single job. So why do you keep beating a dead horse. Is it because you are from Texas and you are an expert on horses dead or alive?

Posted by: tom humes at July 26, 2011 7:44 PM
Comment #326552

KAP-
And the polls are 35-50 against him.

Also, you should ask yourself a question:

What shape would Ohio and the rest of the Midwest have been in, if not for the Stimulus and the auto bailouts?

The auto gains have been widespread, with the Midwest the biggest beneficiary. In Ohio alone, auto manufacturing jobs have risen 31 percent the past two years, while parts makers in Michigan have added nearly 20,000 jobs.

kctim-
If the government is supposed to stay totally out of people’s business, how is it to govern? I mean, you say it’s a stereotype that you want no government, but then you say you want the government totally out of your business.

The two are mutually exclusive. A government that can’t intrude on your business can’t govern a thing.

In my sensibility, the Government has to prove good cause to intrude in on your business, whether that’s a warrant, or good study that says the necessity and good of the law outweighs it’s costs and the burdens of its intrusions.

It will never be simple or easy to govern a country our size. We should stop fantasizing that we can restore frontier-style government, and not because people depend on government, but because they depend on each other more than ever, thanks to industrial advances and telecommunications, and the sheer increase in the population, it’s density, and the consequences of all those needs together.

Hell, look at the way our economy’s gone, it’s complexity and globalized nature. Governing this country like it’s the late 1800s is a mistake. America has changed, and it needs new problems and new disputes resolved.

tom humes-
It’s mathematics. Even under the most stringent budget, the deficits will continue. So will the interest on the debt, so even if you don’t spend one dime more in debt, you’ll still be forced to raise the debt ceiling to take care of what we’ve already borrowed.

There are a myriad of documents and financial instruments whose baseline definition for security is the creditworthiness of a US Bond, it’s likelihood to pay it back.

As far as dead horse go, this should be beaten as often and as strongly as it can be. This is nothing less than our economy’s security and primacy in the world. This is nothing less than the security of world markets.

We have to face that we have a great big debt, and it’s not going away fast or easy. But if we get the debt ceiling raised, we have the opportunity to tackle the problem in a more efficient, better studied, more humane way, instead of ramming our economy and our fiscal outlook into a brick wall.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 26, 2011 11:05 PM
Comment #326562

The polls may be 35-50 against him but he is still getting the job done Stephen. Yes there have been gains in the auto industry but who is going to buy cars with 9.2% unemployment rising food prices and fuel costs? Most people I know are just keeping their heads above water. So a 31% increase today could end up a 50% decrease tommorrow.

Posted by: KAP at July 27, 2011 10:24 AM
Comment #326571

SD

That is why it is so important to reduce spending. That will assist in getting the debt lowered. I really don’t understand why the left has so much trouble understanding that reducing the spending will allow more to be put on the debt and if done correctly additional spending curtailed. Here is a good start. Stop spending money on foreign governments. That would be a token start. Pakistan receives billions of dollars. They are an enemy. Why is our government financing a sworn enemy?

The president in his latest lie to the nation said nothing he has not already said.

For instance his corporate jet thing he is so concerned about. It was renewed in his stimulus bill. That is his baby. Now remove it. It will save $300 million a year. That would be a token start.

He said for Americans to give up those things they don’t need and did not ask for. Like what?

The president said: “Understand—raising the debt ceiling does not allow Congress to spe3nd more money. It simply gives our country the ability to pay the bills that Congress has already racked up.”

I understand what he said. The problem is that Congress will continue to spend to the limit again. So raising the ceiling just lets Congress reach a little higher. Cutting the spending reduces the debt and allows for more money to be paid on the debt, instead of borrowing so much. Raising the ceiling $2 trillion is more than what is required just for this year. Does the president really believe that people looked at him and expected him to make that statement with a straight face?

The democrats still have no plan. Oops they do have a plan. That is to vote down every republican proposal put forth or as Sen. Reid did, and that was to table it.

Who is doing the action to bring the country down? The president and his cronies as well as the congressional left. They can accuse the republican side of whatever they choose, but it does not meet the smell test.

It would be great for both sides of the aisle to sit down with Sen. Coburn’s list of $9 trillion in cuts and come up with a list that is acceptable to both sides and that amounts to at the very minimum $4 trillion. As soon as possible they should revisit and cut more. Continue doing that until the government spending is under control. That will certainly take a long time. But it must be done.

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