Democrats & Liberals Archives

Republicans Won't Spin Away A Default

We’re just a little over a week away from a default on our debt if the ceiling isn’t raised. It won’t be a pretty sight. If the GOP thinks it can spin the failure back on the Democrats they’re sadly mistaken. The public isn’t that dumb. The GOP is wrong and we the people are clear on that.

I've argued before on this site that leadership is not just about watching the polls. Leadership means doing what you believe is right even when sometimes that differs from public opinion. The GOP has entered that zone over the debt ceiling debate. Sure, their base may love this standoff but the general public isn't appreciating it. The price of this kind of leadership could cost them big time.

Let me count the ways the Republican vision of leadership differs from the public and how it lines up with what Obama and the Democrats are working for:

  1. The GOP wants spending cuts only and no increased taxes. The Democrats want spending cuts and tax increases. The public agrees with the Democrats: 64% want spending cuts and tax increases.
  2. The GOP blames Obama for failed negotiations. The Democrats blame Republicans. The public agrees with the Democrats: 71% blame Republicans, 48% blame Obama.
  3. The GOP thinks it's more important to cut the deficit at the expense of social programs. The Democrats think social programs are more important than deficits. The public agrees with the Democrats: 60% say keep benefits, 37% say reduce the deficit.
  4. The GOP thinks debt is the biggest problem we face. The Democrats think it's the economy and jobs. The public agrees with the Democrats: 53% say economy and jobs, 7% say deficit and debt.

So when it all goes south (and it certainly will without a debt limit increase), do conservatives actually think the GOP will come out on top as boldly standing firm and drawing a line in the sand? Do they think their failed hostage situation will somehow give them credibility in the 2012 election? Frankly I hope we don't have to find out.

The Republicans are standing firm but ignore the reality that they cannot accomplish their goals only running the House. The Democrats run the Senate and the White House and have been perfectly willing to give ground in the talks. The GOP is going to have to either stop standing firm or simply face going down in flames and holding most of the blame for the mess it helped create.

Posted by Adam Ducker at July 24, 2011 8:48 AM
Comments
Comment #326324

adam

“4.The GOP thinks debt is the biggest problem we face. The Democrats think it’s the economy and jobs.”


that’s funny, because they didn’t feel that way before the midterms. instead they rammed through obamacare despite the majority of americans opposing it. thats where thier tax increases are. a sales tax on home sales, and a tanning tax which is already effective. i’m sure if i open that collosal piece of S#!t up, there’s plenty more. how is having the current head of the EPA (who was a recess appiontment by the way) helping the economy by go after the coal industry. it’s funny that the democrats now want to claim the high ground, when most of thier policies inhibit economic growth as opposed to encouraging it. how is the LRB go after boeing for setting up in right to work state encourage business to come back to the US?


“The Democrats run the Senate and the White House and have been perfectly willing to give ground in the talks.”


yes, but are unwilling to put it in writing and then vote on it for fear of having to own it when they realize public opinion is against them. let’s be honest we need a budget in writing that has time to be rated by the CBO, as well as the american people. we don’t have that time. a temporary fix that gives congress time to actually pass something, and send it to the president is the most prudent option at this point. otherwise it’s just nods and handshakes. why is obama so dead set against having to deal with this again during an election year? that is if he truely believes it is the republicans that will be blamed? why did democrats not pass a budget when they had the chance?

Posted by: dbs at July 24, 2011 11:55 AM
Comment #326326

Adam,
What was Obama’s primary goal at the start? Raising the debt ceiling with no strings attached. He will achieve precisely that.

Remember, the GOP chose to make the debt ceiling an issue. It has been a manufactured political crisis, NOT an economic crisis. The GOP chose to make the debt an issue in order to advance their agenda, their primary goal, which is most certainly not the agenda of the Obama administration. It was a bad strategic choice by the GOP right from the beginning, since the outcome was assured from the beginning: the debt ceiling would be raised, and that was Obama’s primary goal.

In the meantime, a great deal of political theater has ensued. Obama has trounced the GOP in the public eye. He comes across as reasonable and willing to compromise. Is the deficit a problem? Let’s raise revenue and cut spending. Let’s reach a compromise on our fundamental goals. It was a no-lose situation for Obama. Meanwhile, the GOP comes across as intolerant and inflexible. No compromise. They have looked especially foolish when they insist the debt ceiling should not be raised at all, and that nothing bad will happen if that takes place.

So this is turning into a huge win for Obama. At the same time, the biggest constituency of the GOP, big corporations, must be aghast at the prospect of a political party ever gaining power which threatens the country with enormous economic losses, and then pretends not to even understand the nature of the problem. Virtually any entity, human or corporate, who pays substantial amounts of interest understands just how ridiculous the GOP really is, how detached from reality, and they’re not about to support that kind of idiocy when fundraising time comes.

Posted by: phx8 at July 24, 2011 12:53 PM
Comment #326327

Phx8

“Obama has trounced the GOP in the public eye. He comes across as reasonable and willing to compromise.”

You are right that the media has been very kind to Obama on this one and given him a pass.

I am not following this as closely because I am out of the country. Can you tell me what Obama’s counter proposal has been? I mean one he has written down in some detail?

Adam

re Jobs - that is a big issue. When the debt ceiling crisis passes, as it will, we will be asking why Obama’s big plan worked so poorly. IMO, Obama is not eager to compromise on the debt because he likes to keep attention there, rather than on his record of job creation - or not.

Posted by: C&J at July 24, 2011 1:29 PM
Comment #326329

phx8

“Let’s raise revenue and cut spending. Let’s reach a compromise on our fundamental goals.”

there are two ways to raise revenue. grow the economy, or raise taxes. and cutting spending? what realistic cuts have the democrats, or obama for that matter put in writing?

Posted by: dbs at July 24, 2011 1:54 PM
Comment #326330


The reactionary right wing views compromise as capitulation and if anyone is going to capitulate, it is going to be everyone to the left of them, including many Republicans. They are politically well organized and able to primarily threaten any Republican politician that crosses them.

Posted by: jlw at July 24, 2011 2:02 PM
Comment #326331

C&J,
It’s the dog days of summer, and any real news of note is scarce. The debt negotiations are basically political theater. Since these are negotiations, nothing is in writing at this point. After Biden and the GOP did initial negotiations and finally met an impasse, the GOP insisted Obama get involved, stop staying above the fray, and take front and center.

Big mistake. The Republicans basically demanded Obama take the bully pulpit, and he did. For once, the Democrats seem unified, and somewhat content to let Obama be the focus, and that has resulted in a unified front and a concentrated message. The Dems will compromise. Let’s do the people’s business, and govern. So nothing has been put in writing, various proposals have been leaked by both sides, and it has all amounted to… not much, at least nothing tangible.

As for the leaks, Obama has offered to cave, but the Republicans won’t take ‘yes’ for an answer. Obama has supposedly offered three dollars in cuts for every one dollar in raised revenue (not raised tax rates, but revenues generated by closing loopholes, and cuts through changing the method used to calculate Social Security cost of living adjustments, changes to MediCare and Medicaid, and so on). It’s amazing, because Obama has, in essence, offered to throw progressive Democrats under the bus in exchange for a Big Deal to address the debt and deficits, to the tune of three or four trillion over ten years. The GOP keeps refusing.

Boehner is in trouble. He is having an extremely difficult time with the GOP Tea Party faction. That bunch insists on not raising the debt ceiling under any circumstances, and there are perhaps 80 or 90 of them, enough to make Boehner’s life miserable. The Tea Partiers insist nothing bad will happen if the debt ceiling is not raised. Well, it’s just one of those head-slapping moments in American politics.

McConnell has done pretty well. Not that anyone much cares. He proposed a kind of emergency back-up plan for this whole situation, and I think that’s where it will end. With the McConnell plan, the Senate will take an existing bill from the House that’s been pigeon holed in committee, bring it to the floor, amend it by erasing the entire contents(!) and substituting a raise in the debt ceiling, then passing the amended bill. Sheesh. The House will not like that at all.

The one really interesting development this summer is going unnoticed. Economic indicators are starting to flip north. Last week another indicator flipped when Housing Starts jumped. Although housing prices remain in decline, new building will be huge for employment. However, everyone is so deeply mired in pessimism, especially pessimism over unemployment, that the developments that result in employment are being ignored by everyone except Wall Street.

Posted by: phx8 at July 24, 2011 2:11 PM
Comment #326334

This post is a complete joke; you accuse the Republicans of spin and yet your whole post is liberal spin. You make this statement, “I’ve argued before on this site that leadership is not just about watching the polls. Leadership means doing what you believe is right even when sometimes that differs from public opinion”, and then you proceed to slam Republicans and justify Democrats by quoting the very polls you reject. So what is it; are politicians not to use polls, to know how their constituents believe, or in the case of the Democrats, you are to use the polls? You can’t have it both ways. From what I gather, you are admitting that the public wants conservative debt ideals; but that the Republicans should not pay any attention to these polls; then you proceed to use the polls that should not be listened too:


1. “The GOP wants spending cuts only and no increased taxes. The Democrats want spending cuts and tax increases. The public agrees with the Democrats: 64% want spending cuts and tax increases.”

The question in this poll was, “If you had to choose, would you rather see Congress and the President agree to a budget plan that only includes cuts in the government spending, or a budget plan that includes a combination of spending cuts and tax increases on higher-income Americans and some business?”

What would the poll be if middle and lower income families would see a rise in their own taxes? Which is what will happen.

Let me give you another poll:

“The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 58% of Likely U.S. Voters at least somewhat disapprove of the way President Obama and congressional Democrats are handling the debate over the debt ceiling, with 38% who Strongly Disapprove. But 53% also disapprove of how congressional Republicans are handling the debate, including 32% who Strongly Disapprove.

Just 36% approve of how Obama and Democrats are doing, with 10% who Strongly Approve. Forty percent (40%) approve of the GOP’s performance, including 13% who Strongly Approve.”

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/july_2011/most_voters_are_unhappy_with_both_sides_in_the_debt_ceiling_debate

2. “The GOP blames Obama for failed negotiations. The Democrats blame Republicans. The public agrees with the Democrats: 71% blame Republicans, 48% blame Obama.”

Again, a trick answer to a trick poll; it also says that 58% of those polled believe the Democrats are to blame.

Perhaps if Obama and the Democrats had actually put a plan in writing, the blame would be different. The only plan put forth was by House Republicans and nothing from the dems or Obama. Secondly, depending on how the question was asked, perhaps it is Conservatives who are disappointed with the Republicans for not holding the line and seeming to be weak.

3. “The GOP thinks it’s more important to cut the deficit at the expense of social programs. The Democrats think social programs are more important than deficits. The public agrees with the Democrats: 60% say keep benefits, 37% say reduce the deficit.”

The question was asked by Pew Research, “What is more important: taking steps to reduce the budget deficit, or keeping Social Security and Medicare benefits as they are?”

The poll says nothing about Republicans or Democrats, so you are misleading when you make your conclusion.

4. The GOP thinks debt is the biggest problem we face. The Democrats think it’s the economy and jobs. The public agrees with the Democrats: 53% say economy and jobs, 7% say deficit and debt.

And lastly, CBS/NYT polls asks, “What do you think is the most facing this country today?”

The poll answers say nothing about Republicans or Democrats, again a false answer because you are presuming the Republicans are only concerned about the debt and deficit and that the Democrats are only concerned about the economy and jobs, or that only Democrats are concerned about protecting social programs and Republicans only want to cut them, as in the previous question #3. On what do you base these conclusions? It is Obamacare that will cut $500 billion from Medicare. I know the left loves to spin the Republicans as shoving grandma off the cliff, but don’t insult our intelligence with this spin on WB. Your logic is based upon flawed premises.

“So when it all goes south (and it certainly will without a debt limit increase), do conservatives actually think the GOP will come out on top as boldly standing firm and drawing a line in the sand? Do they think their failed hostage situation will somehow give them credibility in the 2012 election? Frankly I hope we don’t have to find out.
The Republicans are standing firm but ignore the reality that they cannot accomplish their goals only running the House. The Democrats run the Senate and the White House and have been perfectly willing to give ground in the talks. The GOP is going to have to either stop standing firm or simply face going down in flames and holding most of the blame for the mess it helped create.”

Again, your conclusions are based upon flawed logic. But, thanks for your concern about what the Republicans are doing in order to destroy their own party. I’m sure you have our best interest at heart. The results of the 2010 election prove to me that we are on the right path and as long as our Republicans hold the line, they will be safe in the 2012 elections.

Posted by: Mike at July 24, 2011 3:06 PM
Comment #326335

The GOP did tax cuts 10 years ago which created zero jobs (actually during the eight years of Cheney/Bush there was a net loss of jobs), and added $2 trillion to a three & a half trillion debt. Threw away one and a half trillion on unnecessary and unwinnable wars (so far). Then add the no-down-easy payment mortgage boondoggle, on a house you can’t afford. That costs anywhere between six and nine trillion (seventy trillion world-wide). They bailed out Wall Street and the banks for about one trillion or so. So add up all that money, you’ll get the cost the GOP laid on us. Now, after their horrible mistakes, the GOP wants to convince the American people that we can’t afford SS or Medicare anymore. Of course we can’t. The GOP pretty much bankrupted the country by 2009. We’ve been running on empty ever since. Now they want us to believe they, and only they, can get us back on track…fool us once, shame on them, but fool us twice, and it’s shame on US.

Posted by: Marysdude at July 24, 2011 3:09 PM
Comment #326339

Marysdude

The Obama record doesn’t look so good. Maybe we proved that some of what Bush did didn’t work, but we have also proved that what Obama did didn’t work either. We don’t want to double down on the Obama failure.

We probably both agree that Bush made a big mistake in growing government. We may not agree that Obama compounded the mistake, but let’s go back to the last time that things were generally okay.

Let’s get the government to the same size (as % of GDP) that it was in 1999. I think we should be willing to put taxes back up to that level. You will recall that the Democratically controlled congress and President Obama chose NOT to let the cuts expire, but maybe that can change. But we need to trim the fat that Bush-Obama have added to the Federal government.

Posted by: C&J at July 24, 2011 3:36 PM
Comment #326343

Mike: “So what is it; are politicians not to use polls, to know how their constituents believe, or in the case of the Democrats, you are to use the polls? You can’t have it both ways.”

You clearly misunderstand me now as much as you did before. I don’t expect the GOP to change position because of a poll. I’m just suggesting the GOP will suffer consequences for their style of leadership on the issue because the public is not with them on the direction they’re taking. That somehow seems like a contradiction to you but it’s really not in the least.

“What would the poll be if middle and lower income families would see a rise in their own taxes? Which is what will happen.”

What do you base that claim on?

“Secondly, depending on how the question was asked, perhaps it is Conservatives who are disappointed with the Republicans for not holding the line and seeming to be weak.”

I fail to see how that changes the result. It doesn’t matter what the demographics of the 71% are made up of. It still matters that a majority of the public blame the GOP more than they blame Obama or the Democrats.

“The poll says nothing about Republicans or Democrats, so you are misleading when you make your conclusion.”

The GOP feels one way and the Democrats feel another way. My conclusion is the public agrees more with how the Democratic leadership feels.

“I know the left loves to spin the Republicans as shoving grandma off the cliff, but don’t insult our intelligence with this spin on WB. Your logic is based upon flawed premises.”

The Republican agenda is one that protects the rich and big corporations at the expense of middle class Americans, the poor, and the elderly. If you think otherwise you’re not paying attention to the actions of your party leadership.

You call my logic and my premises flawed? I would argue more if I felt you had read my post for comprehension instead of skipping straight to the comment thread to tell me how wrong I am.

“But, thanks for your concern about what the Republicans are doing in order to destroy their own party.”

If they were only destroying their party instead of risking a US depression for all of us I would say go for it.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at July 24, 2011 5:09 PM
Comment #326345

Adam

You take issue with the statement, “What would the poll be if middle and lower income families would see a rise in their own taxes? Which is what will happen.”

If Obama raises taxes, it is hard to believe that only the rich will be affected. Think of the case with the AMT. It was aimed at the rich, but now lands mostly on the middle class. It depends also what you mean by “middle”. Obama talks about millionaires paying their share, but his policies tend to go down a lot lower than that. There is not enough money that can be taxed out of the super rich. And if he goes after firms, they will pass those costs on to the customers, who would often be lower or middle income.

If you expand government, somebody has to pay for it. I have not heard the Obama administration say that they intend to confiscate the wealth of the richest Americans, so that means that all Americans will be paying more.

The problem I have is not so much with the debt as with the growth. When we decide that government will grow, we are deciding that other things will shrink. Choices made by individuals or by voluntary groups will now be made by politicians and bureaucrats. And more decisions will be made politically.

H.L. Mencken said that the New Deal divided America into “those who work for a living and those who vote for a living. Voting for a living can be very profitable, but it doesn’t add to the nation’s wealth.

Posted by: C&J at July 24, 2011 5:32 PM
Comment #326347

C&J: “It depends also what you mean by “middle”. Obama talks about millionaires paying their share, but his policies tend to go down a lot lower than that.”

I have a hard time believing anyone lower than the 250,000 mark in income will see an increase in taxes. If you make over 250,000 a year you are rich in America. You just are.

No plan has been put forth with significant increases on those below that level. Costs being passed on is a different story but the concern that Obama’s taxes will target the middle class or small businesses is not backed up by any facts I’ve seen presented.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at July 24, 2011 5:49 PM
Comment #326348

Mike: “It is Obamacare that will cut $500 billion from Medicare.”

I forgot to question that comment but for the record it’s not true.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at July 24, 2011 5:52 PM
Comment #326350

adam

from your link

“Nearly $220 billion comes from reducing annual increases in payments that health care providers would otherwise receive from Medicare.”

what do you suppose the net effect will be on the number of providers who are willing to take medicare?

also

“Romney said, “Obamacare takes $500 billion out of Medicare and funds Obamacare.” The law doesn’t literally take money out of Medicare, but Romney isn’t entirely wrong in his point, either.”


sounds to me like it will eliminate medicare through attrition.

Posted by: dbs at July 24, 2011 6:08 PM
Comment #326351

Adam

There is not enough money among those “rich”. How high would you have to make the marginal rates on those incomes?

The interesting thing is that as we change the rates, the amount of money we take in remains fairly constant after a period of adjustment. Rich people figure out ways to avoid taxes and they do it legally.

There is also the forgone income. Chrissy and I are not quite in that highest group, but I already find myself less enthusiastic about working harder to earn more money if much of it will be taken away.

Government cannot tax money that people elect not to earn. I guess economists would say they substitute leisure.

Personally, I would be happy to put the hooks into all those super overpaid entertainers and athletes. But I am not sure the collateral damage is worth it.

Posted by: C&J at July 24, 2011 6:13 PM
Comment #326353

“If Obama raises taxes,..”

C&J,

If income taxes were to increase in 2013, it wouldn’t be Obama raising taxes, it would be the Republicans. Have we forgotten that? It is their own legislation that provided for an expiration of the Bush tax cuts of 2001-2003 in 2010. It has been extended for two years due to the recession.

Why do you think that they put that sunset provision into the legislation in the first place? It was because they were fully aware that the tax cuts were fiscally unsustainable in the long term (CBO scoring). That was before two wars, general increases in defense spending, a Medicare giveaway to Big Pharma and a recession that exploded deficit spending.

We would have to be fools and suckers to buy this bait and switch. If Republicans thought it fiscally irresponsible in 2001-2003 to extend the tax cuts beyond 2010, why on earth would they think it fiscally responsible today? The answer can be found in what they want cut. It is principally the social programs.

At some point, the American public will wake up to this scam. The first inkling of an awakening was the Ryan budget. It was DOA. Nobody is prepared to reduce the deficit on the backs of US seniors.


Posted by: Rich at July 24, 2011 7:31 PM
Comment #326354

rich

“It is their own legislation that provided for an expiration of the Bush tax cuts of 2001-2003 in 2010.”


the sunset provision was the only way to get it through the senate. with out that they couldn’t get the 60 votes needed to end debate. remember the majority was no where near what the democrats had a couple years ago. i believe it was 51 to 49, and that was before jeffords defected. bush tried several times to make the rates permanent but couldn’t get the democrats on board.


“If Republicans thought it fiscally irresponsible in 2001-2003 to extend the tax cuts beyond 2010, why on earth would they think it fiscally responsible today?”


once again it wasn’t republicans.


“At some point, the American public will wake up to this scam. The first inkling of an awakening was the Ryan budget. It was DOA. Nobody is prepared to reduce the deficit on the backs of US seniors.”


this is nothing but fear mongering. to believe republicans want to starve seniors, or put them out in the street is complete trash.

Posted by: dbs at July 24, 2011 7:53 PM
Comment #326356

I just have to ask: what has American done to deserve the Republican Party?

These people run up horrific levels of debt fighting two wars to inconclusive and prestige-destructive outcomes. They grant tax cuts to the rich that only succeed in making the richest people richer, not creating jobs or anything like that, and that, too becomes part of the debt, which they’re now holding to our heads.

They create a new drug benefit for Medicare, but neglect in the simplest and easiest of ways to make it cheaper or pay for it with revenues.

Even now, with the full faith and credit of this country at risk, they’re still going to bat for the people who don’t need the help.

And there are even some, who in ignorance, stupidity, or just extreme partisan hatred, are willing to let the default actually occur.

It makes me sick. Already, in their efforts to appear more conservative, the Republicans helped amplify the financial problems that hit us in 2008 into an even worse panic. They have opposed every job creation bill which actually created jobs, and instead have decided to improve the economy by laying people off, and granting more tax cuts to those who don’t need the money.

What’s America going to be left with, if the Republicans get their way? Who’s going to pay the price?

I am a patriot at heart, and it just seems like everything that could do some good in this country is getting smothered in the crib by those who want their ideology to triumph. Country first my ass. These people seem willing to give up everything that we did right in the Twentieth Century, and continue everything we did wrong, just so some can give their agenda, the failures of decades another try.

What else am I sick of? I’m sick of people claiming their capitalists who seem more devoted to the development of an aristocracy than the sensible, productive private use of capital to generate value and profit. I’m sick of people who take advantage of a crisis like this, just to push policies that keep our economy stagnant, and America trailing it’s competitors.

It’s almost as if Republicans these days think that Americans have it too easy, and that what we really need to do is make America struggle on every front to even remain relevant. They attack the UN, which long functioned as America’s way to extend it’s foreign policy abroad. They attack the full faith and credit of this country. They attack the taxes that allow us to fund our goverment without going into debt, and then the spending, even if, and especially if, it helps people get jobs. Their solution to our lack of jobs out there seems to be push programs of deficit reduction, which at this point only serve to throw people out of their jobs, with no realy opportunities in the private markets to actually take up the slack.

The era of Republican dominance in America has seen a downward trend on many fronts.

I say it’s time to remember the real example of the greatest generation, the example of a nation that took care of its own, that served productive economic goals in a creative, not a destructive fashion. I say it’s time to go back to an era where making things work and keeping things working was more important than proving some theory.

I say if you even flirted with secession, you need to get on your hands and knees and ask every American for forgiveness. We are the UNITED States, and those who claim to be loyal to it should be loyal to the union itself.

I say if you quite halfway through your first term, then you should absolutely be disqualified in sane people’s eyes from running for President. I say if you supported this nation defaulting on it debt, as Michele Bachmann does, you should count yourself out of contention. No person who claims that this would be a positive outcome could be trusted to carry out their Presidential Oath.

I could go on, but the point is this: It’s time we go back to what works, and what worked. It’s time to let the Conservative movement of the 1970s die it’s natural death of senility. It’s done nothing but further endebt and further endanger this country the more power it’s gotten. I’m sure many people within that movement had good intentions, but good intentions and bad economic and fiscal theory have had their day, and that day should be over.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 24, 2011 8:16 PM
Comment #326359

dbs,

Come on, it was the projected deficits that would occur beyond 2010 that dictated the sunset provision. In your analysis, Democrats were unwilling to make them permanent with the projected deficits beyond 2010. They were correct.

“once again it wasn’t republicans” who voted for the extension of the cuts beyond 2010. The Democratic proposal was for some of the cuts to expire for high incomes with cuts for middle income remaining in place. That proposal was blocked by Republicans demanding permanent cuts or temporary extension for two years. The compromise was all cuts for two years.

“this is nothing but fear mongering. to believe republicans want to starve seniors, or put them out in the street is complete trash.”

Well, tell me what the Ryan plan does to seniors’ Medicare after 10 years?

Posted by: Rich at July 24, 2011 9:35 PM
Comment #326360


Here is one of your answers Stephen, $2.7 trillion in spending cuts with no revenue enhancements, please oh please, can we make a bipartisan compromise now? Nothing has emboldened the right wing more than their many victories at the hands of corporate enhanced liberals who now call themselves centrists.

Here is another one, liberal propaganda is boring. Conservative propagandists never let facts get in the way of a good rant. Even some of my blue collar Democratic friends know that if nothing else, Obama is a socialist.

Posted by: jlw at July 24, 2011 9:48 PM
Comment #326361


“complete trash”? even the defenders of the Ryan budget don’t know what is in it.

Two thirds of the cuts in the Ryan budget come from programs that help the poor. Cuts to Medicare, Medicaid, the food stamp program, the housing assistance program, Pell Grants, Head Start, planned parenthood, educational and lunch programs for poor kids, etc.

In addition, the Ryan budget includes many tax breaks and other incentives for the most wealthy among us.

A budget that reflects the moral and ethical values of conservatives.

Posted by: jlw at July 24, 2011 10:05 PM
Comment #326363

Adam says:

“The Republican agenda is one that protects the rich and big corporations at the expense of middle class Americans, the poor, and the elderly. If you think otherwise you’re not paying attention to the actions of your party leadership.”

Talk about proof, do you have any facts other than liberal talking points to back up this claim?

Posted by: Mike at July 24, 2011 10:25 PM
Comment #326364

Mike: “It is Obamacare that will cut $500 billion from Medicare.”

“I forgot to question that comment but for the record it’s not true.”

Posted by: Adam Ducker at July 24, 2011 05:52 PM

Only a liberal socialist could take his own link of a “Half Truth” and call it “not true”. Mr. Ducker needs to proof read his links before attaching them.

Posted by: Mike at July 24, 2011 10:33 PM
Comment #326365

SD said,

“I just have to ask: what has American done to deserve the Republican Party?”

Once again SD attacks the source of the problem with his superior intelligence. Then SD continues with his rant about Republicans by quoting the latest liberal talking points from the Dem talking heads and the MSM. Way to go Stephen, you never fail to disappoint us with your logic.

Posted by: Conservativethinker at July 24, 2011 10:41 PM
Comment #326371

Mike,
Deregulation and privatization are hallmarks of conservative Republican philosophy, and these usually benefit big corporations and the rich, often at the expense of everyone else. Are you unsure about this? Do you deny it? Do you need a detailed explanation, with examples?

Posted by: phx8 at July 25, 2011 12:53 AM
Comment #326375

“Here is one of your answers Stephen, $2.7 trillion in spending cuts with no revenue enhancements, please oh please, can we make a bipartisan compromise now?”

Pathetic, isn’t it.

Posted by: Rich at July 25, 2011 7:48 AM
Comment #326376

Mike: “Mr. Ducker needs to proof read his links before attaching them.”

Really? There is an element of truth there wrapped up in a lie, making it half true. But that’s good enough for you, I guess?

Mike: “Talk about proof, do you have any facts other than liberal talking points to back up this claim?”

Let me see. On one hand the GOP:

1. Defended wealthy Americans against tax increases
2. Protected private jet tax breaks.
3. Defeated attempts to remove subsidies for the oil industry.

On the other hand the GOP:

1. Rallied behind the Ryan plan that would increase the costs of medicare by $6000 on average.
2. Held the debt ceiling hostage risking a 2nd recession.
3. Pushed their plan through Congress that would force large cuts to social programs.

That’s just at the federal level and just in the last few weeks. We could go on for days at the state level where we have the GOP attacking workers rights, voting rights, environmental protection, consumer protections and no telling what else that I can’t recall right now.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at July 25, 2011 8:03 AM
Comment #326377

C&J: “There is not enough money among those ‘rich’. How high would you have to make the marginal rates on those incomes?”

I would increase it 3% back to late 90’s levels. That ends up amounting to about $700 billion over a 10 year span. That’s why any deficit reduction plan needs to come with about a 3 to 1 ratio of cuts to tax increases. No one actually believes tax cuts alone would be useful and spending cuts alone risk our social programs that Americans rely on.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at July 25, 2011 8:39 AM
Comment #326424

Adam

The government has grown. We need to cut back on many of the things that got bigger since 1999.

I would certainly accept taxes returning to the 1999 level. But they will no longer be enough to balance the budget in face of the radical expansion of government.

Posted by: C&J at July 25, 2011 7:19 PM
Comment #326430

“We need to cut back on many of the things that got bigger since 1999.”

Which are?

Posted by: Rich at July 25, 2011 8:13 PM
Comment #326454

Mike: “Mr. Ducker needs to proof read his links before attaching them.”

Really? There is an element of truth there wrapped up in a lie, making it half true. But that’s good enough for you, I guess?

Mike: “Talk about proof, do you have any facts other than liberal talking points to back up this claim?”

Let me see. On one hand the GOP:

1. Defended wealthy Americans against tax increases
2. Protected private jet tax breaks.
3. Defeated attempts to remove subsidies for the oil industry.

On the other hand the GOP:

1. Rallied behind the Ryan plan that would increase the costs of medicare by $6000 on average.
2. Held the debt ceiling hostage risking a 2nd recession.
3. Pushed their plan through Congress that would force large cuts to social programs.

That’s just at the federal level and just in the last few weeks. We could go on for days at the state level where we have the GOP attacking workers rights, voting rights, environmental protection, consumer protections and no telling what else that I can’t recall right now.
Posted by: Adam Ducker at July 25, 2011 08:03 AM

Adam, none of these are facts, they are simply your opinions of events.

Posted by: Mike at July 25, 2011 10:36 PM
Comment #326457

“The U.S. government can avoid a default for at least a month after the Aug. 2 deadline to lift the debt ceiling set by the Treasury Department, said John Silvia, chief economist at Wells Fargo Securities LLC.

“The Federal Reserve and the Treasury can work together to generate enough cash probably for the next two or three months to avoid any kind of automatic default on the Treasury debt,”Silvia, who is based in Charlotte, North Carolina, said in an interview on Bloomberg Television’s “In the Loop” with Betty Liu. “There’s a way of getting around this issue for at least another month or two.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-25/u-s-can-avoid-default-at-least-until-september-silvia-says.html

And so it begins; I guess President Obama and the Democrats didn’t get this memo.

Posted by: Mike at July 25, 2011 10:43 PM
Comment #326471

Mike,
I heard greater than expected revenues could extend the date until Aug 10.

Beyond that, it gets quite tricky. From your link:

The Federal Reserve may have the legal authority to extend a line of credit to the Treasury, said Sung Won Sohn, an economics professor at California State University-Channel Islands. He said any such credit line would range from $10 billion to $30 billion — enough to tide the government over for a few days…a Fed contingency plan could allow banks and other financial institutions to temporarily lend their Treasury securities to the Fed in exchange for cash. Such a move would be aimed at easing any credit strains caused by a default, he said.
“In general, I think they’d want to temporarily substitute the Fed’s credit in place of the Treasury’s credit,” Feroli said.
Silvia cautioned that there is still a risk that the U.S. will lose its AAA debt rating.

This is risky and has never been done before. Will the markets accept these accounting gimmicks as legitimate or will we simply lose our AAA rating?

Posted by: Warped Reality at July 26, 2011 7:39 AM
Comment #326474

Mike: “Adam, none of these are facts, they are simply your opinions of events.”

I didn’t realize the reality of a situation was simply opinion. If you have a counter argument about what was going on while the GOP was acting in those instances then please let us know.

Warped Reality: “This is risky and has never been done before. Will the markets accept these accounting gimmicks as legitimate or will we simply lose our AAA rating?”

I think we know that answer is no. Not in the state things are in already.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at July 26, 2011 8:49 AM
Comment #330889

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