Democrats & Liberals Archives

Debate Over Jobs Brings Up Key Questions

It’s been said many times on this site and around the web that the problem with hiring in America is lack of confidence due to tax policies and other concerns. This has even been reiterated today by Obama himself. But is there something else at work here to stop hiring?

Stephen Daugherty commented today that companies are not hiring because they know people aren't spending. Calculated Risk noted too that the problem is "lack of customers" and not "confidence and deficits." Those two statements really got me looking deeper into this issue to see if there was something to it.

Sure enough, the National Federation of Independent Business put out a report last month suggesting the problem is indeed weak sales:

The Administration has offered tax breaks for hiring and equipment investment with few results. Failing to understand the reasons small business owners are not hiring or investing has resulted in a set of policies that have not been very effective. ... It is simple: when sales pick up, owners will have a reason to hire more workers to take care of customers, to produce more output and will have a reason to invest in new equipment and expansion.

We know that small businesses make up 99.7% of all employers and employ 52% of the private workforce. * If a survey of small businesses suggests a lack of customers is their biggest single problem then I think that lends quite a bit of credibility to the argument.

So is the GOP sounding alarms about spending and shifting the narrative to debt and deficits actually an example of them being disconnected from reality? It wouldn't be the first time for their agenda. Unfortunately it has the Democrats and Obama scrambling to appear fiscally sane at a time when that apparently should be the least of our worries.

* Correction: As pointed out in the comments, I had stated 99.7% of jobs in America are created by small businesses instead of simply that 99.7% of employers are small businesses. There's a pretty big difference there but I don't feel the error changes the nature of the post to a large degree.

Posted by Adam Ducker at July 8, 2011 5:39 PM
Comments
Comment #325412

Obama is trying to get re-elected. Saying Taxes puts the blame on government which is better than saying the salaries of the average American Worker hasn’t risen in the last 30 YEARS. Saying THAT will put Obama against every major Campaign Donor out there.

FYI… The US Family has been maintaining their standard of living despite low wages by working 4-5 jobs per family. Husband tends to have 3 jobs plus wife with 2 jobs.

That’s unsustainable and its showing on our children.

Posted by: Aldous at July 8, 2011 7:23 PM
Comment #325425

Wouldnt it have been easier to wear a wrapper on your winkie so you wouldnt have so many kids?

Secondly, your employer will ONLY pay you enough to keep you there. The NEXT employer is the one that will pay you more to work for them. At best you can work somewhere for 5 yrs before you maxed out at your employer. In 6 years I went from 9.50 an hr to 23 an hr…. and only had 3 jobs. Sadly, after recession, I lost that job. Next job was 20 an hr…. TEMP….. next job was 19 with FULL BENEFITS and FREE INSURANCE and PERM!!

I have NEVER had more then 2 jobs and depending on the time in my life…. gf or wife NEVER had more then one job.

Sounds like you have more of a spending problem then an earning problem, because if you are working that hard and long, and you are still broke???? HONESTLY!!! You might want to find a job that actaully pays OT, rather then work 4 jobs. Do the math.

The jobs are there, you just have to look and work for them.

Posted by: Michael at July 8, 2011 9:14 PM
Comment #325430

Michael,

Let me guess… college education? It’s a lot different with the minimum wage people which are the majority of the population.

Posted by: Aldous at July 8, 2011 10:04 PM
Comment #325449

Jobs will not return to the US until we STOP IMPORTING EVERYTHING FROM CHINA!!! “Made in USA” hardly exists any more. Go into any store and look at what they are selling….junk made in China, Mexico, Indonesia, India, etc…All our money and jobs are going over there. The Chinese and Indians are using American money to buy oil, pushing the prices up. We need to tell US companies that they must stop outsourcing, and slap huge tariffs on imports of any product that could be made here. Having “Free Trade” agreements with nations whose labor costs are a fraction of ours DOESN’T WORK.
Also, American workers need to realize that having 2 late-model cars and 4 Huge-screen TV’s is NOT “normal”, nor is $40 an hour a justifiable wage.

Posted by: capnmike at July 9, 2011 10:26 AM
Comment #325456

Capnmike: “Jobs will not return to the US until we STOP IMPORTING EVERYTHING FROM CHINA!!!”

I’m not sure that’s possible as much as Americans love Wal-mart and other cheap shopping centers. We’re willing to buy complete garbage as long as it’s so cheap we can replace it quickly as soon as it’s ruined.

Will Americans ever be willing to buy US products at higher prices? Could they even afford it? Would American industry ever evolve enough to even handle such demand? Or would we just end up right back where we’re at now with little demand and no job growth because of it?

I doubt we can ever stop importing cheap goods from other countries but we can still specialize in high-end technology like green energy products. We’re way behind in solar cell manufacturing but on the other hand we’re leaping ahead in the area of batteries for hybrid and electric cars.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at July 9, 2011 11:19 AM
Comment #325466


China is now the leading manufacturer of solar panels. It has plans to be the largest producer of electric cars and battery’s.

Our automobile manufacturing industry is living on borrowed time. It will require high tariffs to keep them in business.

How about this!

A company owned by the Chinese government is seeking to build a 50 square mile, state of the art, self-contained city south of Boise Idaho.

The city will contain manufacturing facilities, warehouses, retail centers and housing for Chinese workers.

www.latenightinthemidlands.com/china…

Posted by: jlw at July 9, 2011 1:19 PM
Comment #325473
I’m not sure that’s possible as much as Americans love Wal-mart and other cheap shopping centers. We’re willing to buy complete garbage as long as it’s so cheap we can replace it quickly as soon as it’s ruined

Thank you!!!

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at July 9, 2011 2:30 PM
Comment #325475

JLW: “A company owned by the Chinese government is seeking to build a 50 square mile, state of the art, self-contained city south of Boise Idaho.”

As far as I know this is simply a right wing conspiracy theory with little basis in reality. The original source is apparently the Idaho Statesman but quickly spread to Infowars and other right wing sources spreading fear about “foreign trade zones” and other spooky ideas. The Idaho government recently denied this is happening and even the Idaho Statesman has denied all of the rumors that have spawned from the original article.

Of course that’s not enough to stop a good conspiracy from continuing.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at July 9, 2011 2:37 PM
Comment #325479

adam

“I doubt we can ever stop importing cheap goods from other countries”

stop…probably not. i think if we could find away to make products made in the US more competitive by placing more import taxes on the mass cheaply made goods we import, and being more agressive about requiring china to purchase more of our exported goods. i don’t think we can ever produce as cheaply simply because of the much lower cost of labor, but we can produce a superior US made product that would cost only 10% or 15% more. i would, and believe most americans would be willing to buy american if those products were of superior quality and not prohibitively more expensive.

“but we can still specialize in high-end technology like green energy products. We’re way behind in solar cell manufacturing but on the other hand we’re leaping ahead in the area of batteries for hybrid and electric cars.”


green technologies are not and will not IMO be a major source of economic growth until they become competitive with cheaply available fossil fuels like coal oil, and natural gas. if we try to make that happen by subsidizing them and artificially forcing up the price of hydro carbons, all we will accomplish is to put ourselves at competitive disadvantage with other producers that choose not to.

i would imagine at some point in the future they will become competitive, but only when they can compete on there own merrit, and by that i mean someone finds a way to make a profit because the technology has evolved and made them a better value than coal or oil. we currently have the worlds largest supply of cheap coal, and the technology to burn it cleanly. to ignore that in order to chase after alternatives that have not come of age yet is foolish.


Posted by: dbs at July 9, 2011 3:12 PM
Comment #325480

I am just curious about these cheap, “throw-away” goods being manufactured in China and sold by Walmart. Could anyone identify them for me? I shop regularly at Walmart and Sam’s Club. What “good” in particular that is being produced in the US is so much superior to that being produced in other countries?

When I was a kid in the late 40’s and 50’s, Japan was importing cheap junk to our shores. “Made in Japan” was just a joke. Today, Japan sells many quality items here and around the world. How many Watchblog readers own Japanese electronic products? How many drive Japanese automobiles?

I don’t believe that placing tariffs on imports will grow US jobs. Making the US the preferred place to cite business will grow our jobs. How does one become the preferred place to do business? Is it just wages? Is it just regulations (or the lack of them), is it corporate taxes, or some combination of these factors? Did Japan come to prominence in many markets employing high tariffs?

Wages are rapidly rising in China and they are now losing business to India and other nations with lower wages. Will the new mantra be…”junk from India”?

There will always be places in the world with lower wages than in the US and there always has been. If we want jobs back in the US we can’t compete on wages and must use other strategies. The US is a great inventive and entrepreneurial society. We have many advantages over any other country in the world. We used to exploit those advantages and no longer do. The reason is simply that government gets in the way of success too often and in too many ways.

Posted by: Royal Flush at July 9, 2011 3:20 PM
Comment #325485

I’ve seen some pretty crappy particle board “furniture” at Wal-Mart.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at July 9, 2011 4:02 PM
Comment #325490

Royal Flush: “I am just curious about these cheap, ‘throw-away’ goods being manufactured in China and sold by Walmart.”

You can get almost anything you want at Wal-mart at any price level. You can get a plastic and aluminum screwdriver for a couple of bucks that will break apart and stab you in the leg as soon as use any force. You can get yourself a nice pair of pants that don’t fit very well because the pattern is cheap and random but that won’t matter because it won’t even stop the screwdriver from stabbing through the cheap denim. Tie the leg wound off with a T-shirt you bought at Wal-mart. It will just fade in the washer anyway after a couple of washes. That is if you haven’t already torn a hole in it while you put it on the first time. Put all this broken stuff in a cheap thin plastic wal-mart trash bag but don’t poke a hole while you’re at it and let the junk spill out while you’re trying to throw it in the dumpster.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at July 9, 2011 4:29 PM
Comment #325491

I’ve seen some pretty crappy particle board “furniture” at Wal-Mart.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal

Yup…so have I. And, I’ve seen some crappy particle board stuff produced here in the US at higher prices. I guess if one can only afford crappy particle board furniture it only makes sense that they would look for the least expensive crappy product.

Posted by: Royal Flush at July 9, 2011 4:29 PM
Comment #325493

Adam certainly has had bad luck with Walmart items. I wonder why he shops there. I have purchased clothing and such from Walmart that serve my needs just fine.

The meat and other items I purchase at Sam’s Club are better and less expensive than most other stores in my area. But, what the hell, let’s just legislate them out of existance along with any other business that doesn’t meet our “high” standards. What bullshit!

Posted by: Royal Flush at July 9, 2011 4:36 PM
Comment #325500

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many on WB are typing on computers made in America; or how many have cell phones made in America. I have no problem shopping at WalMart. My dad always said, “you get what you pay for”.

As far as buying American; I will never buy another American made car unless it is a Ford. Ford was the only company who did not take bailout money and I appreciate them for that, but I am totally upset with the shinanigans the unions have pulled. So My next car will be made by a foreign company. It may be made in America, but I WILL NOT spend my money to support union thugs in America.

Posted by: Mike at July 9, 2011 6:05 PM
Comment #325508

Royal Flush: “Adam certainly has had bad luck with Walmart items.”

I stopped shopping at Wal-mart about 7 years ago but I’m living in Wal-mart country where every person you meet is either working at Wal-mart or on their way to shop there, or both.

Mike: “Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many on WB are typing on computers made in America; or how many have cell phones made in America.”

I for one don’t object to buying imported products even from China. I just know that cheap Chinese goods are one reason Americans won’t stand for producing more at home. We’ve lost the battle over cheap every day products and if we’re going to compete it will need to be in other work sectors.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at July 9, 2011 6:58 PM
Comment #325514

We’ve lost the battle over cheap every day products and if we’re going to compete it will need to be in other work sectors.

Posted by: Adam Ducker at July 9, 2011 06:58 PM

You are correct. And, this nation wasn’t built, nor did it prosper on cheap every day products. Get government off our backs and we will be the world’s productive leader and economic powerhouse once again.

Posted by: Royal Flush at July 9, 2011 7:35 PM
Comment #325515

Royal Flush,

“Get government off our backs and we will be the world’s productive leader and economic powerhouse once again.”

This is a joke, right? The corporations already own Congress and the Presidency. Nearly all major corporations PAY NO TAXES AT ALL.

Posted by: Aldous at July 9, 2011 8:45 PM
Comment #325517

“Royal Flush,

“Get government off our backs and we will be the world’s productive leader and economic powerhouse once again.”

This is a joke, right? The corporations already own Congress and the Presidency. Nearly all major corporations PAY NO TAXES AT ALL.”

Posted by: Aldous at July 9, 2011 08:45 PM

Aldous, I’m not quite sure what you are saying; corporations create jobs and you are saying there is no difference between government and corporations. Obama is begging corporations to turn loose of their hordes of cash and hire people, and if they don’t obama will surely loose the next election. So, since obama and the democrats have done their best to bail out corporations, why wouldn’t corporations want to do what obama wants them to do?

Second, corporations don’t pay taxes; consumers do.

Thirdly, GE is one of the worst at finding tax loopholes, of which the democrats love to accuse corporations and yet obama rewarded GE:

“Obama Picks Jeffrey Immelt, GE CEO, To Run New Jobs-Focused Panel As GE Sends Jobs Overseas, Pays Little In Taxes”

“Immelt’s firm stands as Exhibit A of a successful and profitable corporate America standing at the forefront of the recovery. It also represents the archetypal company that’s hoarding cash, sending jobs overseas, relying on taxpayer bailouts and paying less taxes than envisioned.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/21/obama-picks-jeffrey-immel-ge-jobs-overseas_n_812502.html

In fact the huffpost goes on to blast obama for being in bed with big corporations, and you would think liberals would would be furious. But no, the left continues to support obama 100% even though he stabs them in the back. Go figure…

Posted by: Conservativethinker at July 9, 2011 9:31 PM
Comment #325520

RF

when i say made in america i mean the the type of products i remember as a kid back in the 60s. when you bought something it was built to last. i myself shop at walmart. where i live you shop at walmart or kroger, or you don’t shop. i realize protectionism as a policy is unrealistic in a global economy, but i don’t think we’re getting the best deal we can when dealing with our trading partners, and having china holding so much of our debt definitely doesn’t strengthen our hand. the point i was making is IMO we need to start producing things here again. things we want and people in other countries want, and will buy because american made means what it once did.

i myself buy things at walmart that are made in china. i’ve got to be honest they usually don’t last long. hell, ive bought bottle openers that bend the first time you pop the cap on a cold one. this is what i mean by cheap. so maybe import taxes aren’t the answer, but there has to be a way to produce a quality product here at price that reflects a better value even if it is a little more.

i own a nail clipper set i’ve had since the mid 70s. on the back of every piece is stamped made in the USA, and you know it still works as good now as the day i got it. the new ones look the same but they but they don’t work well for very long. i guess i’m just sad that my country isn’t what it once was, and what it can again if we abandon these asinine anti business policies that we have been persuing, as well as the fiscal train wreck we’re headed for because to many have expected gov’t to be all things to all people, and have given up the concept of self reliance.

Posted by: dbs at July 9, 2011 10:00 PM
Comment #325522

Talk about a dingbat; this is the kind of leadership the left has. No wonder she is the most disliked woman in America, and a former Speaker of the House:

“At Thursday’s White House meeting between President Obama and congressional leaders, Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner laid out in stark terms the awful economic repercussions of allowing the debt ceiling to lapse… At that point, Nancy Pelosi asked: Why couldn’t the debt ceiling be decoupled from deficit reduction… visibly surprised some leaders in the room, several Republican and Democratic sources say. Obama politely informed the House Minority Leader, those same sources say, that that train had left the station weeks ago.”


http://swampland.time.com/2011/07/08/has-nancy-pelosi-been-marginalized-in-the-debt-debate/

Posted by: Conservativethinker at July 9, 2011 10:10 PM
Comment #325527
i own a nail clipper set i’ve had since the mid 70s. on the back of every piece is stamped made in the USA, and you know it still works as good now as the day i got it. the new ones look the same but they but they don’t work well for very long. i guess i’m just sad that my country isn’t what it once was, and what it can again if we abandon these asinine anti business policies that we have been persuing,…

What specific asinine anti business policy is it dbs that directs corporations to make products that look the same but don’t work as well? It seems to me the type of illogical thinking in this comment has caused more problems to our country than “anti business policies” . What you have just said IMHO is before the deregulation frenzy that started in the 70’s and continues to this day things were made better but since the deregulation frenzy these same products are not made as well. Yet if we continue to deregulate it would solve the problems of this country. Is it just me or does anyone else see the irony in dbs’s comment?

Posted by: j2t2 at July 9, 2011 11:53 PM
Comment #325528
corporations create jobs and you are saying there is no difference between government and corporations. Obama is begging corporations to turn loose of their hordes of cash and hire people, and if they don’t obama will surely loose the next election. So, since obama and the democrats have done their best to bail out corporations, why wouldn’t corporations want to do what obama wants them to do?

Jeez, Con you just made Aldous’s point for him, which was “The corporations already own Congress and the Presidency”. Were it the other way around Obama would demand that corporations spend money to create jobs not beg for job creation. This clearly shows who owns who.

The difference between government and corporations is the difference between representative democracy and a dictatorship. The difference between Obama and the repub/conservatives is Obama knows his corporate ties are ruining the country while the repubs/conservatives openly exploit these ties to ruin the country. It is just a small difference but a difference none the less.

Posted by: j2t2 at July 10, 2011 12:06 AM
Comment #325541

How does the “separation of church and state” left feel about Congressman Rangel, D in NY, invoking WWJD (what would Jesus do)about the economy. I for one am furious that a politician would invoke the name of Jesus when talking about jobs, debt, and the economy in general.

I wonder if Rangel asked the same question, WWJD, when evading taxes by not claiming income from his Caribbean mansion. What we are seeing is another case of liberal double standards. How can this man even talk about what Americans should pay in taxes, when he is a tax cheat?

Or how about John Kerry Dem Senator in MA; who purchased and registered a yacht out of state, in order to get out of paying MA property taxes, and he is one that is calling for higher taxes on rich American’s yachts and aircraft?

Posted by: Mike at July 10, 2011 1:45 PM
Comment #325544

Let me go out on a limb here and make a prediction. I predict we are going to have some liberal on WB post an article giving the right to raise the debt ceiling to the president under the 14th Amendment.

The reason I say this is because the huffpost and the new republic have already picked up on the latest democrat talking points, as picked up from dem senators Chris Coons and Patty Murray:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/28/14th-amendment-debt-ceiling-unconstitutional-democrats_n_886442.html

http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-chait/91211/congress-really-could-not-stop-obama-ignoring-the-debt-ceiling

How long before the libs of WB are parroting the same talking points.

Posted by: Conservativethinker at July 10, 2011 2:03 PM
Comment #325549

i guess i’m just sad that my country isn’t what it once was, and what it can again if we abandon these asinine anti business policies that we have been persuing, as well as the fiscal train wreck we’re headed for because to many have expected gov’t to be all things to all people, and have given up the concept of self reliance.

Posted by: dbs at July 9, 2011 10

Thank you dbs, I too am sad for the very same reasons. You are absolutely correct that self reliance and individual freedom built this wonderful country.

Sometimes, when I bemoan our current fiscal and social environment, I am reminded that we haven’t lost anything that really matters. We have simply failed to properly employ the wonderful gifts that God bestowed upon our nation.

Think about our land size and the quality of our soils that enable us to feed not only ourselves, but many other nations as well. We are blessed with many navigable rivers, nature’s highways.

Our nation enjoys a diverse population from many cultures who have blended together for a common purpose: build a future filled with opportunity and freedom for anyone willing to work to that end.

We have a judicial system that is strong and based upon constitutional rights.

Our nation has built an education system that is, and hopefully will continue to be, the envy of the world.

Our nation is dotted with magnificent cities that hum with economic activity and commerce.

We have clean air and clean water. We have majestic forests and woodlots and provide all the wood products we desire.

Every citizen of the proper age is eligible to vote for those who represent them in government.

We have private charitable institutions in every city of any size that rush in to help when its citizens face diversity.

We have religious freedom and a population of over 80% that believe in God.

dbs, I remain an optimistic conservative who believes, like Ronald Reagan, that America’s best days are still ahead of us. We have much work to do. We will lead this country back to its glory.

Posted by: Royal Flush at July 10, 2011 3:28 PM
Comment #325555

j2t2

“What specific asinine anti business policy is it dbs that directs corporations to make products that look the same but don’t work as well?”

apparently you’ve combined two different thoughts here. a lot of the day to day products we buy aren’t of the quality they once were, hence the nail clipper story. now about the asinine regulations forced on business. it is regulations like these that cause businesses to relocate, or choose to locate elsewhere. here’s a prime example.

http://news.yahoo.com/connecticut-becomes-first-state-mandate-paid-sick-time-190949179.html

Posted by: dbs at July 10, 2011 4:53 PM
Comment #325556

You are correct dbs; and Obama’s NLRB case against Boeing, simply for the case of protecting union thugs, is why large American corporations move their industry overseas.

Posted by: Mike at July 10, 2011 5:03 PM
Comment #325558

mike

excellent point. boeing being harassed by the NLRB is another prime example of putting a union agenda ahead of the economy and creating jobs. it definitely qualifies as asinine anti business policy.

Posted by: dbs at July 10, 2011 5:14 PM
Comment #325560

dbs, great points on the link. I was a union worker for almost 40 years (IAM, the union representing Boeing Machinists) and my dad worked for GM and a member of the AFL-CIO for almost another 30 years. And I can say without reservation that unions have come a long way since the days they represented my wife’s grandfather in the coal mines of Eastern Kentucky. They no longer represent the worker; they represent the leadership and what’s in it for them. There was a time when union made was equated with America and patriotism, but their policies and actions are now anti-American. I place union thug leaders at the bottom of the food chain, just below ambulance chasing lawyers. “Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly” and in the case of the unions, “Follow the money”; both of these sayings will fit well.

Posted by: Mike at July 10, 2011 5:40 PM
Comment #325569


CT, I could see how one could think that if one were dependent on the bi-weekly for news. That ploy has already been rejected.

Pelosi and the House Democrats are upset because they have become irrelevant in the discussion.

Obama called the Republicans bluff by laying it all on the table, $4 trillion deficit reduction. It is the Republicans that are blinking. Obama has proven that subsidies for oil companies and others, and more tax cuts, are more important to the Republicans than debt reduction.

Not that Obama had to prove it. The Bush Republican controlled government proved that when they were giving big tax breaks and spending like Democrats, while claiming that deficits don’t matter.

Not a peep from the conservatives on the evils of debt while they were defending the Bush agenda. Perhaps a small one from Jack or Rhinehold, a libertarian.

As others have pointed out, better than I, the results of tax cuts and deregulation have not come close to meeting conservative proclaimations. Perhaps the great results will not come to fruition until every tax and regulation on business is eliminated.

Perhaps you can explain the motive for tax cut and spend? What is it that we should have expected to achieve with that?

Adam D, when I read the article on the Chinese City in Idaho, I thought it was far fetched, I looked for the debunks, but missed them.

However, it is true that conservative Idaho is actively seeking Chinese government owned business investments in the state, which seems to imply a huge conflict of interest in conservative thinking. Perhaps not, may be they wouldn’t turn government owned GM from the door if they came calling.

We have something in common, we live in a Walmart community. The people in the cities have options, the rural citizens often don’t. You don’t bad mouth Walmart in this rural conservative community. They pay 8 bucks an hour.

Mike, was Kerry the only wealthy member of Congress taking advantage of a tax haven or the only wealthy one calling for increasing taxes on luxury items? Because of the heat, well deserved, Kerry paid the tax. What about the others? I guess they deserve the tax break because they didn’t run their mouths.

How effective is a tax break on luxury yachts, when most of the wealthy, Kerry included, have their luxury yachts built in other countries? Sounds more like a perk for the privileged, and what conservative would argue that wealth doesn’t deserve privilege.

Did it infuriate you that Bush asked God, his higher father, what he would do before making all decisions?

We have separation of church and state, not God and state. The state takes it for granted that God is a powerful ally, always has.

It reminds me of an old church hymn, written by Dylan, “With God On Our Side”.

Posted by: jlw at July 10, 2011 7:45 PM
Comment #325573


Mike, You say the union leadership no longer represents the members. Who’s fault is that?

Are you saying that as a Boeing machinist, you would have gotten a better deal, your family would have enjoyed a better standard of living without the union.

Amazing how many conservatives who enjoyed the benefits of union membership for 30, 40 years or more now say unions have outlived their usefulness.

I know, you fellas only enjoyed those union benefits because you were forced too.

I once worked in a non union machine shop (1976), $2.90 an hour, no benefits. I wonder what Boeing machinists were making back then.

IMO, your wife’s grandfather would be disappointed.

Posted by: jlw at July 10, 2011 9:09 PM
Comment #325576

jlw said,

“Mike, was Kerry the only wealthy member of Congress taking advantage of a tax haven or the only wealthy one calling for increasing taxes on luxury items? Because of the heat, well deserved, Kerry paid the tax. What about the others? I guess they deserve the tax break because they didn’t run their mouths.”

Jlw, no I don’t believe Kerry is the only wealthy member of Congress taking advantage of a tax haven; I’m sure there are many others, but the point is a double standard. Kerry tried to beat the property taxes on his own yacht, which is fine if it’s legal, but then calls and supports taxes on yachts and jets for other people. It’s called hypocrisy and I also included Rangel as a double standard hypocrite.

“Did it infuriate you that Bush asked God, his higher father, what he would do before making all decisions?”

No it did not, because the Republican Party has never demanded that religious beliefs be left at the door when entering the halls of congress, but the liberals have, and again I find it hypocritical that a liberal who demands that God be excluded from any decisions made in Congress would be the one telling Republican politicians they should enter into the weekends debt debate asking themselves WWJD. I’m sure you will defend Rangel, but if it were Paul Ryan making the same statement, what would the left say?

“We have separation of church and state, not God and state.” This statement is grasping at straws to justify Rangel.

Jlw goes on to say:

“Mike, You say the union leadership no longer represents the members. Who’s fault is that?”

Well as a union member, I can say it is not the rank and files fault. I know that is what you are trying to imply, but unless you have been a member of a mega union, you have absolutely no idea how they operate. Once leadership gets in control, they are virtually impossible to remove. Votes for officers are held all over the country and who knows if the vote is counted or not. Also, the leadership campaigns in shops where there are large memberships. These large memberships get perks to entice them to vote for the existing leaders and the outlying shops receive nothing, neither do they receive visits. It is impossible for someone to come up through the ranks to take leadership positions unless they are recommended by the existing leadership. To simplify it so the novice can understand, there is nothing democratic about unions and the selection of their leaders.

“Are you saying that as a Boeing machinist, you would have gotten a better deal, your family would have enjoyed a better standard of living without the union.”

I did not say I was a Boeing machinist; I said I belonged to the same union as the Boeing machinists belonged. I was a machinist, but not for Boeing. Did I enjoy a good standard of living? Yes I did, and I never said unions did not help the working man. I did say the unions have changed and no longer represent the working man, they represent their own wallets. It is about power and wealth. Could I have lived the same or better standard of living without a union? I’m sure I could. I was a journeyman machinist, and even though I am retired, I could still find work in a non-union shop today. So I don’t base my success on a union membership, I base it on my own abilities and ambition.

“Amazing how many conservatives who enjoyed the benefits of union membership for 30, 40 years or more now say unions have outlived their usefulness.”

The unions outlived their usefulness when they stooped representing the worker and working with the corporations and became political machines making enemies of the corporations. You see jlw, the union leadership don’t really care about the rank and file, because they got theirs. They make big bucks, good benefits, and great retirement, and it’s all paid for by union dues. And if they are really radical in their beliefs, after they retire, they will be given a job by a liberal politician
“I once worked in a non union machine shop (1976), $2.90 an hour, no benefits. I wonder what Boeing machinists were making back then.”

I was an apprentice machinist in 1976 and I made $2.50 an hour.

“IMO, your wife’s grandfather would be disappointed.”

You’re correct; he would be disappointed at what unions have become. He would not have liked to see his union dues go to support a politician he didn’t believe in, and he certainly would not have appreciated a union that told him who to vote in office. He was a proud American and loved his country and if alive, he would be sad to see political parties today supporting the same socialist ideals he fought against in WWI.

Posted by: Mike at July 10, 2011 10:30 PM
Comment #325580
apparently you’ve combined two different thoughts here. a lot of the day to day products we buy aren’t of the quality they once were, hence the nail clipper story. now about the asinine regulations forced on business. it is regulations like these that cause businesses to relocate, or choose to locate elsewhere. here’s a prime example.

dbs, I combined two different thoughts! Reread your statement.

It now appears you at least agree that it is not asinine anti business policies that has led to lower quality products in the country today. It is in fact business themselves that have led this decline in quality. I hope the punishment for breaking rank with the conservative talking point on this issue is not to severe, you know how they are.


Despite your opinion that requiring sick days is a asinine policy it seems many other developed countries would consider sick days to be a no brainer. Here is an interesting article about how hard American workers work.

Prior to the Big Recession, which has reduced working hours, “the average American worker clocked 1,804 hours of work in 2006,” the highest in the world, notes New York Times reporter Steven Greenhouse in his excellent book on the plight of the U.S. working class, The Big Squeeze. That represents “three full-time weeks more per year than the average British workers, six more weeks than the average French worker, and nine more weeks than the average German worker.”

http://www.inthesetimes.com/working/entry/11570/the_new_bargain_in_the_us_long_hours_for_low_pay


Posted by: j2t2 at July 11, 2011 2:08 AM
Comment #325581

mike

“but their policies and actions are now anti-American.”

they’re not the only ones. the enviornmental movement is another with deep anti american roots.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQf_QfitmKE

Posted by: dbs at July 11, 2011 5:27 AM
Comment #325583

“they’re not the only ones. the enviornmental movement is another with deep anti american roots.”

What BS. People whine about the EPA until their rivers get polluted cause they blew up a mountain… then they whine about why the EPA is so slow cleaning it up.

Posted by: Aldous at July 11, 2011 8:02 AM
Comment #325584

“he would be sad to see political parties today supporting the same socialist ideals he fought against in WWI.”

Mike,

What are you talking about? What “socialist ideals” of Germany or Japan at the time of WWII are current political parties supporting?

Posted by: Rich at July 11, 2011 8:02 AM
Comment #325585

Rich,

Look at the definition of “Fascism” and look at the GOP.

Posted by: Aldous at July 11, 2011 8:07 AM
Comment #325587

Adam let me point out what appears to be an error.

We know that 99.7% of jobs in America are created by small businesses.
is incorrect according to the link.

Small business makes up 99.7% of employers and employs 52% of the workforce.

“the nation’s 17 million small, non-farm businesses constituted 99.7 per cent of all employers, employed 52 percent of private workforce and accounted for 51 percent of the nation’s sales. Small business-dominated industries provided 11.1 million new jobs between 1994 and 1998, virtually all of the new jobs created during that time period. Small businesses are most likely to generate jobs for young workers, older workers and women, provide 67 percent of first jobs and produce 55 percent of innovations.”


Because this link is old, I found another that suggests the numbers are true today.
http://www.sba.gov/advocacy/7495/8420

Posted by: j2t2 at July 11, 2011 10:55 AM
Comment #325588

It seems Krugman is once again spot on with his analysis of the jobs situation.

“Our failure to create jobs is a choice, not a necessity — a choice rationalized by an ever-shifting set of excuses.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/11/opinion/11krugman.html?_r=2

Posted by: j2t2 at July 11, 2011 11:19 AM
Comment #325592

Conservative Thinker-
I’m not going to defend the idea of debt ceiling being ruled unconstitutional. I’m not going to attack it. If the President has to consider it in order to maintain the full faith and credit of American debt, then he does what he has to.

But really, weren’t we going over the subject of these negotiations before? Didn’t we already carry out the budget negotiations when we were working to prevent a Government shutdown? Were those negotiations just in bad faith?

Did Republicans write up all those spending bills with little to no intention of directing the treasury to pay for what they just obligated us to?

Pelosi’s right. This should have been decoupled. Raising the debt ceiling should have been done cleanly. it’s not like you won’t have next year’s budget negotiations, which I believe start in the fall, to deal with.

No, you just won’t have the nation’s economy to hold us hostage with.

As for Immelt?

Hmm, is that a critique of your own system of corporately compromised governance? See, that little cut doesn’t sting unless you acknowledge that having the captains of industry in charge of such things, with their tax-evasion and resistance to creating jobs in America, is an unwise thing.

So, while you might get people like me stammering about Obama’s choice, you’re also selectively employing a criticism to burn us that absolutely immolates you when it’s applied more generally. I mean, how many of the people that your folks had in charge came out of their respective industries?

It’s not a problem you wish to solve. If not, though, you’re going to have to tell us why doing things your way the last ten years didn’t deliver the promised result. Immelt or no Immelt, the President’s actually created jobs. Your party? Well, your party’s continued to indulge the discredited discipline of creative destruction.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 11, 2011 2:20 PM
Comment #325596


Mike, If your wife’s grandfather fought against company goons, joined with his fellow workers to demand government legislation allowing organizing and collective bargaining, then he was, at that time, labeled a communist or a socialist by the right. It is a common belief among conservatives, still.

I know how unions work, they work on the principle of democracy and union members that believe as you do don’t have the power to take over the unions.

The next time your union has a national election, step up to the bat and nominate Gov. Walker for president of the union.

You can rationalize and scapegoat all you want, but from a right wing conservative point of view, you are a member of a socialist organization.

Aldous, if you want to know what best describes the current right wing philosophy, you need to read Ann Rand. Notable right winger talking heads like Limbaugh and Beck sing her praises. Many Republican politicians, especially the tea party variety, like Ryan, Paul, Johnson, etc., do so as well.

Her ideology is quite simple. The only think that matters in this world is the individual. Her superman individual cares for nothing and nobody but himself. Community doesn’t matter, beliefs don’t matter, society doesn’t matter, only the individual and what he wants matters.

Rand is also an atheist. She teaches that a belief in God and our Judeo-Christian traditions and ethics are for the weak minded who can easily be manipulated.

All Christians who support the right, should read Ann Rand to see where their talking heads and many of their favorite politicians are coming from. Why do they support free market capitalism? Because it is atheistic, amoral and exploitative, everything a superman individualist desires.

Ann Rand’s ideology, in it’s extreme, is all inclusive of the Republican Party, but the party is in serious jeopardy of being taken over by a far right wing faction that true believers. For propaganda purposes, they nit pick Rand, they are not going to talk up Rands anti God, racist ideology to their admiring fans. They only emphasize her anti progressive, anti union, anti socialist views. When the left exposes her philosophy for what it is, well that is just left wing lies.


Posted by: jlw at July 11, 2011 6:10 PM
Comment #325614

jlw:

I do know Ayn Rand. Like I said, read the definition of fascism.

Posted by: Aldous at July 12, 2011 6:23 AM
Comment #325641


Aldous, one of the main precepts of fascism is anti individualism. With fascism, everyone from the wealthy man to the peasant is on the same team, by force if necessary; and the team is usually engaged in perpetual war with enemies, both domestic and foreign, for the greater glory of the fatherland, motherland, etc. A Nazi idiom, only through war does progress come.

To me, Randism is the dominate bulls make their own rules.

The Nazis incorporated business into their regime, it wasn’t all that hard, profits were good. Here, the corporations have incorporated government into their regime, it wasn’t all that hard, money is free speech.

Posted by: jlw at July 12, 2011 6:34 PM
Comment #330897

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