Democrats & Liberals Archives

One Bite at a Time

Many moons ago, I faced a competency exam on World History. Talk about broad. I ordered a history book as thick as my head on Amazon to study for the exam. When it came, I must have looked overwhelmed. My mom asked me what was wrong. I asked her, “How am I going to get through all this?” She answered, “How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.” Her analogy still cracks me up considering she’s a Religious Conservative and the GOP mammal/mascot is an elephant. Yes, I’m easily amused.

When I opened up my Yahoo! mailbox this afternoon, I saw this subject line: BREAKING: Wisconsin Republican Recalled! It looks like I'm not the only one following my mom's advice. Today, Wisconsin activists filed recall petitions for Luther Olsen, one of the six GOP senators targeted. Petitions have already been filed for Dan Kapanke and Randy Hopper. Olsen's recall will be #3. The petitions for Sheila Harsdorf's recall are about to be filed.

Taking on the recall of six GOP Senators is no small feat. Activists are literally pounding the pavement to get the signatures they need. Volunteers are making phone calls to get others involved. Supporters from all over the country are donating to keep a television ad for the recall going.

I haven't seen so much fervor since the Obama '08 campaign. Why? Scott Walker and his GOP senators declared war on the working class. The people they want to silence by taking away their ability to collectively bargain are the ones who do jobs many of us aren't willing to do. Prison guards and teachers are the first on the chopping block. Police officers, State Troopers, and Firefighters were spared, for now. What's going to stop them from going after them too? Nothing. That is why many of them joined in the demonstrations.

Ten years ago on 9/11, when the towers fell, firefighters were the first responders. They were lauded as heroes. Now, people are branding them as entitled parasites. Firefighters, police officers, teachers, prison guards, and other government workers are necessary. We need them as much as they need us. They're far from parasitic. Our relationship with them is symbiotic.

Activists in Wisconsin and supporters across the country understand this. Wisconsin Democrats are letting their state government know exactly how they feel by turning in recall petitions, slowly but surely. They're eating the elephant, one bite at a time.

Posted by Spinny Liberal at April 19, 2011 1:00 AM
Comments
Comment #321827

Spinny Liberal, thank you for your post.

When one (or many) gets the ball rolling, it can certainly make a difference. You don’t know how many times people have said to me that they weren’t going to bother fighting for what is right because no one will listen to them anyhow. I have learned over the years that one person can certainly make a difference, let alone a group of people.

I recently sent a letter to Senator Claire McCaskill citing my concerns about age discrimination as it relates to entitlement “reforms” currently on the table. About a week later I actually got a call from a person in her Washington DC office wanting to know my opinion about what should be done. If I hadn’t written that letter, this issue may have been overlooked. Your mother is right and that is an excellent analogy.

Further, the corporate takeover of this country has everyone brainwashed that the bottom-line is the answer to everything and wealth is the only gauge of success. Everyone else is a failure and humanitarian issues are not relevant.

People are standing up to that now, and I think it is about time!

Great post!

Posted by: CC at April 19, 2011 11:43 AM
Comment #321828

Thanks for reading! I’ve definitely heard that I shouldn’t bother fighting. Sadly, I believed it too. Then, something huge happens like in Wisconsin, and I see all the effort. Their success at even getting signatures is inspiring.

It’s cool that you got a response to your letter! And you’re right about the brainwashing. On one of the forums I used to frequent, someone said the top 2% should be taxed more. One response was interesting, “No we shouldn’t. We shouldn’t have to pay for you losers.” Um, first, I doubt she was in the top 2%. Most at that level wouldn’t have time and won’t bother discussing issues in a political forum. Why would they? More than likely, they have connections to politicians that they can talk to and influence. Second, losers? Really? People who work everyday, raise families, but are not as wealthy are losers? Real nice.

I’m glad people are standing up, and you’re right, it’s about damn time.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at April 19, 2011 12:06 PM
Comment #321835

SL wrote; “Ten years ago on 9/11, when the towers fell, firefighters were the first responders. They were lauded as heroes. Now, people are branding them as entitled parasites.

Really…firefighters are being called parasites? Who are those “people”? Anyone can conjure up all kinds of imaginary insults and then write about it as though it were true.

The “One bite at a time” analogy is hardly new. It’s been around longer than me and is still good advice.

My grandmother had a favorite saying when one of her grand-kids was rushing, and doing a poor job, to finish a chore. “If you don’t have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over”?

I believe it would be correct and helpful to remind our congress and prez of that wise advice.

Posted by: Royal Flush at April 19, 2011 2:10 PM
Comment #321837

I heard it on a local news talk radio station.
Did I say it was new?
Grandma sounds like a sage.

Thanks for reading!

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at April 19, 2011 2:22 PM
Comment #321839

R.F Congress should have followed your grandmothers advice when they passed the HCR bill. I still remember Pelosi’s famous “WE HAVE TO PASS IT TO SEE WHAT’s IN IT” remark. As far as the firefighter remark I’ve never heard it unless it came from Daily Kos, Huffpost or the MSNBC trolls like Madow, Shultz or Matthews.

Posted by: KAP at April 19, 2011 2:25 PM
Comment #321840

There are dozens of links proclaiming JoAnne Kloppenburg as the winner in the Wisconsin SC Justice vote. But, the problem was, they declared victory too early. Incumbent David Prosser won after the votes were counted.

When all the out of state protestors and union thugs go back to the the rocks they crawled out from under, when the George Sorros money has stopped flowing, and when it comes down to the voters of Wisconsin who go into the voting booths, the left will rule the day they ever called for recall. When the democrats end up loosing more Senate seats.

Recall efforts are very difficult to accomplish and in the state of WI, the recent vote for SC justice proves the conservatives are still strong in the state.

I believe you are premature in your victory dance, BJMHO.

Posted by: 1776 at April 19, 2011 2:26 PM
Comment #321843

I do no victory dances unless (hopefully, until) victorious. Thanks for reading!

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at April 19, 2011 2:39 PM
Comment #321845

Oops forgot to add to my last post.

@KAP - You may not like the source, but here. Thanks for reading!

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at April 19, 2011 2:41 PM
Comment #321846

Royal and KAP, what we are experiencing on WB are liberal socialist writers who use hear-say and talking points as facts. It would be nice if they could actually provide documented proof with their talking points. But when you ask them for the proof, their answer is “I’m not gonna spend my time looking up proof for you”. Either that, or they do as one liberal did in the red column and accuse your rebuttal as being confusing and not worthy of an answer..

Posted by: 1776 at April 19, 2011 2:42 PM
Comment #321847

Sorry that was a broken link. I must use preview button first.

Firefighters

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at April 19, 2011 2:44 PM
Comment #321848

Your link don’t work. Just tell us if it is from kos or huffpost.

Posted by: 1776 at April 19, 2011 2:44 PM
Comment #321849

I’m sorry for the broken link.

As I said, you guys might not like the source, but the poster on Democratic Underground (gasp) did all the heavy lifting for me. ;-) Read or ignore. Up to you.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at April 19, 2011 2:48 PM
Comment #321850

This is halarious, you get your facts from a liberal blog site? I didn’t know finding facts was that easy. I’ll just go to conservative blog sites for my proof. I’m sure liberals will accept that.

Posted by: 1776 at April 19, 2011 2:51 PM
Comment #321851

Oh Lord 1776. If you bothered to look, the poster posted outside sources.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at April 19, 2011 2:56 PM
Comment #321852

1776, knock it off. Provoking people into fighting you is NOT DEBATE. You are welcome to share your opinions and engage in civil debate with others here, but I ask you to tone down the vitriol.

I am positive you know what you are doing. That kind of behavior is not going to fly here and will not be tolerated.

Posted by: WatchBlog Publisher at April 19, 2011 2:58 PM
Comment #321854

S.L. I read part of the link, granted Firefighters have a dangerous job but some of the statements made in that link are somewhat true. I live a block from a fire station. A lot of ambulances go out from that station but rarely a firetruck. O and by the way, you forgot to note that some of the Democrat Senators in Wi. are also being petitioned for recall. YEP one bite at a time.

Posted by: KAP at April 19, 2011 3:00 PM
Comment #321861

Spinny Liberal,

Are you a regular here or are you new?

Posted by: CC at April 19, 2011 3:39 PM
Comment #321862

Spinny Liberal-
Welcome to the Watchblog Family! Don’t let the Red Column get you down. Take it one bite at a time, and do what I do whenever a Republican makes a claim: google it.

1776-
As I recall, those results have not been certified, so there is no real winner yet, even in a provisional sense. There might be a recount, so who knows? If your advice is not to count chickens until they’re hatched, don’t start making a tally yourself.

Oh, on the subject of this:

Royal and KAP, what we are experiencing on WB are liberal socialist writers who use hear-say and talking points as facts. It would be nice if they could actually provide documented proof with their talking points. But when you ask them for the proof, their answer is “I’m not gonna spend my time looking up proof for you”. Either that, or they do as one liberal did in the red column and accuse your rebuttal as being confusing and not worthy of an answer..

A what we have he’yah, is a failure to communicate!

But seriously, what’s the point of this trash-talk? We provide plenty of evidence, plenty of information…

…which then gets labelled as talking points, and dismissed by your folks. And really, how many times have I asked tom humes to back up a point, only to get told that he believes there’s no point to doing it, because it would get dismissed by the left?

The problem with relying on this kind of liberal bias theory is that you put your confirmation bias on steroids. You close yourself off from the ability to get information from the real world that indicates you’re wrong.

That a fact might be a political talking point changes its merits not a whit. It is either true, false, or unproveable, and that can be demonstrated by other facts, as well as critical examination of the statements and arguments made.

KAP-
We’ve already got three Republicans up for recall. How many Democrats have you put in danger of a recall?

Royal Flush-
As I recall it, protections in Ohio for Firefighters are on the chopping block, too.

The Republicans have a long history, as of late, of demonizing people who they find themselves in political opposition to

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at April 19, 2011 3:44 PM
Comment #321864

S.D. 8

Posted by: KAP at April 19, 2011 3:50 PM
Comment #321866

S.D. It’s not the firefighters that are on the chopping block it’s the UNIONS they belong to that are on the block.

Posted by: KAP at April 19, 2011 3:52 PM
Comment #321867

S.D The score is tied in WI. 1 Dem. and 1 Rep.

Posted by: KAP at April 19, 2011 3:55 PM
Comment #321868

Spinny Liberal,

We have some red winged lurkers here who lay in wait for any liberal posting. What I do is I ignore the ones who are just angry and hate anything liberal at all, regardless of the soundness of the posts. They will try to engage you in their battles to try and turn the discussion to why liberals are Marxists, socialists, Leninists….and when that doesn’t work, they take things you say out of context and try to criticize that.

There are some that can periodically put up a good debate based on facts and good arguements, not anger. Those I will debate if they are civil.

Overall, I am with Stephen D. Use it as a way to hone your own political understanding and you will be able to get better when debating with the other side (and I don’t mean in this forum, necessarily). At least you will know how to meet their objections. :-)

Posted by: CC at April 19, 2011 3:59 PM
Comment #321869

Always glad to see another author on here, so welcome to the site.

As for your piece, I appreciate your optimism, but I would tempers it with the advice that filing the petitions is not only not that large of feat, but fairly common. Getting signatures is the easiest part of the process, and many people will sign those petitions whether they agree with it or not. In other words, using the filing of papers as a measure of success is even less reliable than political polls which use a sample of the entire population rather than a sample of likely voters. People will sign, but will they show up and vote?

Moving on, the only true point of contention I have with your piece is the line:

Why? Scott Walker and his GOP senators declared war on the working class.

I, along with many people throughout the nation and more specifically in Wisconsin, see it differently. I am part of the middle class. Thus while I still wouldn’t agree with the statement, it would be considerably more accurate to characterize their move as a declaration of war against unions, or even more specifically public sector unions. Either way, the middle class is currently the ones funding the exacerbated union pay scale and benefits package. Seems fairly obvious that a move to save the middle class money would be considered a net positive for the entirety of the middle class.

As for your link (down in the comments section), that is pretty rediculous. I don’t know the site well enough to deride it specifically, but a collection of quotes from comments posted throughout the internet is not a representation of the republican or conservative ideology. Without the means to find the individuals who made those statements, determine their identity and beliefs, they can not be attributed to any political party. Next time, use material (whether collected by a site such as that you linked to or by yourself) where the author can be both identified and researched.

Posted by: adam at April 19, 2011 4:02 PM
Comment #321870

SD said, “The Republicans have a long history, as of late, of demonizing people who they find themselves in political opposition to”

If we do, we learned from the best.

Stephen, I expect you to lay aside your liberal hat and give me a straight up answer on this.

Except for the post you have made (and you always supply links), I picked the last four posts in the blue column: “One Bite at a Time”, “The Obesity and Gluttony of Corporations”, “Tax Cuts for the Rich? Huh?”, and “Who Is Your God? An interactive question with telling answers”, and not one of these posts offers a single link to back up the numbers and facts stated. Would you do this?

To the Watchblog Manager, I am not picking a fight or trying to cause problems, but in the many years I have been here, I have never seen anyone post on WB without providing a link to their proof. This is why I say their posts are based upon talking points. Stephen would never allow conservatives to just post what we think as proof. Right Stephen?


Posted by: 1776 at April 19, 2011 4:06 PM
Comment #321871

Stephen:
I usually try to just ignore you. I’ve explained that position in detail before…but this is too funny:

The Republicans have a long history, as of late, of demonizing people who they find themselves in political opposition to

From the mouth of the party which has a full scale attack against ‘millionaires and billionaires’ who, for some reason, owe society for their success. They should be willing to pay more, do more, etc. because their success just can’t be a result of their own merit, work ethic, creativity, or any other personal attribute; it is the result of what society has provided them, and given them the opportunity to achieve, or maybe a result of what they have already taken from others…and we’re the one’s ‘demonizing’ people?

Posted by: adam at April 19, 2011 4:10 PM
Comment #321873

1776,

Sourcing your facts is very important. Most people follow that protocol very well, but that is not the concern here.

The concern is your behavior, using language designed to provoke anger instead of civilized debate. I’m asking you politely to stop.

Posted by: WatchBlog Publisher at April 19, 2011 4:19 PM
Comment #321875

Okie Dokie, will do.

Posted by: 1776 at April 19, 2011 4:22 PM
Comment #321880

SD wrote; “Royal Flush-
As I recall it, protections in Ohio for Firefighters are on the chopping block, too.

OK…but are they being called “parasites”? The “protections” you refer to are paid for by taxpayers. Is it wrong for taxpayers to be consulted about those protections they are asked to fund?

Posted by: Royal Flush at April 19, 2011 4:44 PM
Comment #321881

Thank you Stephen and CC for the nice welcome and tips. “Laying in wait” cracked me up. I am fresh meat then. Haha

@KAP - I think they have enough signatures for Dems Hansen and Wirch. They haven’t been turned in yet. The deadline is approaching.

Thanks for the welcome adam. I am well aware that the signatures is the easy part. As I said, I don’t do victory dances unless victorious. ;-)

As far as the link goes, someone asked, and I provided it. The fact that comments on the article substantiate my claim vs. the author’s words, I believe, is irrelevant. I’m merely pointing out that the “parasite” perception is out there. That said, I will keep your suggestion in mind.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at April 19, 2011 4:45 PM
Comment #321885

S.L. To me those recalls in Wi. are nothing more then radicals trying to get their way. If it were me in Wi. I’d have a petition out to recall all the Dem. Senators that ran off to Ill. It’s sad when grown men and women have to resorte to childish manuvers and not face up to their responsibilities. What kind of example is that to their constituents and to the next generation of law makers? Personnely I think we need to fire all the politicians and start fresh. Including Obama.

Posted by: KAP at April 19, 2011 5:27 PM
Comment #321887

KAP - there are 2 Democrats who fled that people want to recall - Hansen and Wirch. I think they have enough signatures.

I don’t know what example it makes because it’s not a new tactic.

Firing “all” politicians. At least your slash and burn isn’t selective. ;-)

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at April 19, 2011 5:37 PM
Comment #321888

adam-
The thing I would say, is that I constantly get my hair blown back with rhetoric from the right about how civil servants are leaches, government is parasitic, etc.

Government can’t do this right, government can’t do that right. It’s become an article of faith, and its become the discussion for them, rather than the discussion of what might be done, or should be done. It’s not typically a conclusion reached after study, but an assumption made before any study of the situation has been made.

And that what both troubles me and annoys me. It annoys me because there’s not much budge even in situation where some government seems to be called for. It troubles me because it leaves this country in a state of having to consider its options with one arm tied behind its back, because so many refuse to consider what were once believed to be sensible options.

A generation ago, events like the massive oil spill and the economic collapse generated responses from Congress that actually went some distance towards preventing their repeat. Now, it seems, many want us to simply blunder our way through, continuing the same policies, despite demonstrated risks.

Meanwhile, a resistance to aid to the states is leaving this country in a position where many states and municipalities are making cuts so severe, they’re actually pulling back our economy, and leaving many of these cities and states in degraded positions, concerning services and infrastructure. The cutbacks aren’t solving the problem, even, but instead are compounding the overall economic crisis, weakening the fiscal picture by inhibiting growth.

And even now, some of the diehards in the party are willing to let this country run right into sovereign default, in order to make a political point. Others are willing to hold this country’s ability to pay its obligations off hostage for political gain, despite warnings from Wall Street of the foolishness of this response.

It just occurs to me that while the concentration of opinion on the right on these matters has granted them greater political strength and unity in many places, it’s also put the rest of the country in a place where it has to watch the policy of this country and its interests wildly diverge from one another. People ask, what kind of irresponsible nuts and madmen are running this country?

When does the policy finally begin to sync up with the sentiments of the American people? When do we finally stop arguing about a deficit which isn’t folk’s first concern, and turn our attentions towards re-energizing this economy so we don’t have to absorb the fiscal consequences of long term unemployment and tepid growth?

There’s an appropriate order to solving these problems, and that order depends on whether we have the means to resolve the problems in question. The deficit will need to be resolved from both sides, and only then after we’ve brought this nation back on a timely course to full employment and full productivity. America doesn’t need its economy to be just slouching around like a stoner on their neighbor’s couch.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at April 19, 2011 5:50 PM
Comment #321889

S.L. I tend to be a conservative to moderate person. Right now I have no faith in either party. The way things are going with the debt and economy neither party impress me with their fix it policy.

Posted by: KAP at April 19, 2011 5:51 PM
Comment #321890

KAP - Your view of both parties is shared by many.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at April 19, 2011 6:21 PM
Comment #321894

“To me those recalls in Wi. are nothing more then radicals trying to get their way. If it were me in Wi. I’d have a petition out to recall all the Dem. Senators that ran off to Ill. It’s sad when grown men and women have to resorte to childish manuvers and not face up to their responsibilities. What kind of example is that to their constituents and to the next generation of law makers?”

The example is that these lawmakers knew the Republicans were going to try and pull off something that was completely unethical. They also knew they were outnumbered on the vote and took a chance to forestall any vote until an agreement could be reached.

The example is: Stand up for what is right. I think this is a better example than being led like lambs to the slaughter. At least their constituency know for a fact their Democratic elected leaders will stand up for them.

Posted by: CC at April 19, 2011 7:33 PM
Comment #321898

CC
“The example is that these lawmakers knew the Republicans were going to try and pull off something that was completely unethical.”

“At least their constituency know for a fact their Democratic elected leaders will stand up for them.”

I will try to keep it simple. What unethical behavior are you talking about?

And how can you represent your followers when you are in another state?

The unions only have to present a demand and in the past the government has met that demand. The ones paying for the demand have not had a vote. That is what is being sought to change in WI.

Posted by: tom humes at April 19, 2011 8:05 PM
Comment #321899

CC, What pray tell is unethical about having a vote? Yes they were outnumbered, so were republicans when HRC was put to a vote but I didn’t see them running to Canada to stall a vote. What was unethical is the way Democrats ran away. By the way I would say the same if it were republicans who pulled that childish manuver.

Posted by: KAP at April 19, 2011 8:07 PM
Comment #321901

tom humes, KAP-
What I think is unethical is telling people you should be elected so you can do one thing, and doing something else, something in fact that’s opposite to what people wanted you to do.

Across the country, people were expecting Republicans to get focused on a jobs agenda, and instead, they focused on their party’s anti-union, anti-tax, anti-Obama agenda. Of course, they can claim that this is what they meant by jobs, but then if people had liked that agenda before out of Republicans, they wouldn’t have voted them out.

No, people wanted something different out of government, Republican advertised that their people would be something different, and instead they acted exactly like how Newt Gingrich and his bunch acted. In fact, they made very similar promises, didn’t they?

Republicans took advantage of Wisconsin voters at their time of weakness to promote an agenda that was arbitrary to the wishes of the people.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at April 19, 2011 10:01 PM
Comment #321902

S.D. So you condone the childish game that the Wi. Senate Democrats played. BOO HOO we’ll run away because we not going to get our way. Like I said Stephen, Republicans didn’t run away to Canada when the HRC bill was up for a vote. Also like I stated to CC, I would say the same if they were Republicans. The state of Wi. like other states are going broke because of Cadilac benefits courtesy of the tax payers that had no say in what public workers unions bargained for. You want to talk about corruption and union pay offs to elected officials. Now your crying foul because Republican governors and their state reps have the BALLS to fight the unions. IMO unions have no business in the public sector. Private sector fine then it’s between the workers and company.

Posted by: KAP at April 19, 2011 10:28 PM
Comment #321907

Walker didn’t campaign on gutting the union, so I think his actions shocked a lot of people. Maybe their fleeing was partly a reaction to the bait and switch. I don’t know.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at April 19, 2011 11:32 PM
Comment #321909

KAP-
No, Republicans didn’t run away to Canada. But if I were looking to be particularly pernicious with my presentation of their politics, I could just as well say that they clung together like a mass of frightened children trying to prevent the Affordable Care Act from becoming law, and that John Boehner lost it fighting the bill in a lost cause.

Ah, but that would be cheap, now wouldn’t it be?

The states are going broke because the economies are crap. Making the economy crappier for some, and compensating for that by making the already recovered, already prosperous more so doesn’t change much for the better.

You are accepting the standard Republican scapegoats for the fiscal problems in those states. Could the fact that we just had a major economic collapse be a better explanation, especially given the role states play in distributing and providing assistance to the poor and the unemployed?

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at April 19, 2011 11:53 PM
Comment #321913

Stephen, Could it also be that people were tired of the Democrats BS? The fact is Stephen a majority of the people didn’t want Obama care and it was unethical that the Democrats passed it especially the way they went about getting the votes needed.
Your right Stephen the economy is crap. Is it fair to give union public employees better benefits and pay while private sector employees are taking cuts? Sure Wi. state employees accepted to pay more towards their retirement and health care but the percentages are still far below what private sector pays for far less coverage. As I said unions in the public sector should NOT be allowed. Private sector fine, the fight between themselves and the company they work for.

Posted by: KAP at April 20, 2011 12:28 AM
Comment #321915
There are dozens of links proclaiming JoAnne Kloppenburg as the winner in the Wisconsin SC Justice vote. But, the problem was, they declared victory too early. Incumbent David Prosser won after the votes were counted.
They haven’t actually been counted AT ALL in Waukesha County — but they definitely need to be! With a HAND recount — not by a computer or through an optical-scanner. Because Prosser’s former employee Ms. Nickolaus, the elections clerk, is a GOP activist with a long history of questionable integrity and honesty, who decided to privately keep all the votes for that county on an unsafe, totally out of date personal computer. Then claimed she forgot to hit “save” on Micro-Soft Access — a blatant lie because Access was designed to always save automatically. With this lie, she says she managed to “correct an error” that magically pulled a big bunch of all-Prosser votes out of her butt, two days after the election had taken place. Now she’s being investigated going back five years because it seems Waukesha ended up with a 97.63% Turnout in 2004? And 20,000 More Votes Than ‘Ballots Cast’ in 2006?”

Uh-oh. Looks like Ms. Nickolaus has a history that stinks of rotten fish and the decomposed remains of Joseph Stalin, who once said:

The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.

Which is of course true — when those counting are completely dishonest, untrustworthy, and highly secretive. So, clearly someone OTHER than this Republican Activist Nickolaus who stinks like fish and keeps the votes of a public election private on her unsafe personal computer needs to hand count every vote in Waukesha County.

And Kloppenburg must demand that recount go forward by tomorrow (Wednesday). And she should — most especially since Prosser is now vowing through his lawyers to block one from going forward. He too, smells like dead fish with his latest public statements.

If anyone here is interested in persuading Ms. Kloppenburg to do the right thing by demanding a full recount in Waukesha County, here’s where they can write to her:

campaign@kloppenburgforjustice.com

Posted by: Adrienne at April 20, 2011 1:38 AM
Comment #321916

BTW, Spinny Liberal, nice first post. I wish you best of luck @ WatchBlog!

Regarding your blogtag, love it. Reminds me of this hilarious Monty Python bit!

Posted by: Adrienne at April 20, 2011 2:03 AM
Comment #321928

Thanks for reading Miss Adrienne!!

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at April 20, 2011 11:17 AM
Comment #321934

KAP-
The stuff I read about artificial intelligence theorizes that our brains make sets of connections between different agents of thought and perception. Rather than imagine a consistent self, we can imagine different states of mind that emerge from combinations of these thoughts and perceptions.

I think good evidence for the reality of these theories can be found in political polling.

Ask people about things from one direction, and you might get one answer- from another, yet another answer. It’s almost as if people are not of one mind on certain subjects, but of two, three, perhapse even several perspectives on it, and they don’t have to be consistent with one another.

Point is, real world thought is more complicated than polled thought. Polls ask particular questions that might get particular responses. But they might leave out the details about how people might turnover, in a critical threshold-crossing kind of way, towards another opinion.

People’s opinions are a funny thing. If you ask them about Healthcare, they feel negatively.

If you ask them about banning recissions, trimming waste and unnecessary subsidies from Medicare, banning the refusal of insurance over pre-existing conditions, supporting the expansion of coverage among small business, even the Public Option and Medicare Buy-In Plan, people are positive about it.

Ask people about Obama’s performance on fiscal matters, and they disapprove in the majority. But what about his actual policies?

The poll finds that 72 percent overall, and 68 percent of independents, support hiking taxes on those over $250,000. Even 54 percent of Republicans support this. Meanwhile, 65 percent say Medicare should remain as it is today and should not be transformed into a voucher program. Only 34 percent favor changing the program. A solid majority, 59 percent, also supports a mix of tax hikes and spending cuts to reduce the deficit — the Dem approach — versus only 36 percent who support only cuts. But only 39 percent approve of Obama’s handling of the deficit, versus 58 percent who disapprove. That’s better, but only marginally so, than the GOP’s 33-64 spread on the same question. And more say the GOP is taking a stronger leadership role than Obama, 45-40. This matches yesterday’s McClatchy poll, which found the same disconnect.

I believe Republicans have succeeded in poisoning generalized opinions on different things, more than they’ve succeeded at changing people’s minds in their direction.

The Republicans are simply assuming people flipped entirely. But that isn’t always the case. Folks don’t necessarily fit a model of how things are supposed to work.

I think the Republicans have misread the direction of the 2010 elections. They can no more fail to create jobs and win the next election anymore than the Democrats can.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at April 20, 2011 12:00 PM
Comment #321938

Stephen, Sure we can hike taxes on those making over $250,000. But it isn’t going to bring the debt down any appreciable amount and IMO it just gives Harry and Barry more money to spend on frivilous BS. We need to revamp the tax codes and take away all the loopholes. Also those people making over $250,000. are usually going to find a loophole that will return any tax hike you give them or just pass it on to the consumer in higher prices. One way or another the rich will get their money back. You raise their rates 5% they raise their goods 10%, so who ends up loseing, the consumer. As I said we need to rwevamp the tax codes.
On republicans creating Jobs, they only control the house and you know as well as I do that Harry is not going to let republicans out do him and make him look bad so he will block anything the house sends to him.

Posted by: KAP at April 20, 2011 12:38 PM
Comment #321943

SL: Recall elections are a good safety valve. That’s why we have politics, so we don’t have to use guns.

Concerning public unions, I believe in simple solutions. Outsource as much as you can to the private sector. (Can’t do the police though.) There is no reason that a firefighter or garbageman or paramedic can’t be a private employee. They can then have their union, but it will be a fairer negotiation on benefits with an owner that is looking at the overall bottom line, unlike our politicans.

Posted by: Mike in Tampa at April 20, 2011 1:19 PM
Comment #321948

Mike in Tampa, Good points.

Posted by: KAP at April 20, 2011 1:42 PM
Comment #321949

Republicans took advantage of Wisconsin voters at their time of weakness to promote an agenda that was arbitrary to the wishes of the people.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at April 19, 2011 10:01 PM

Rarely have I read a more convoluted, nonsensical comment.

1) Promote an agenda that the voters accept.

2) Receive a majority of votes and be elected.

3) The voters decide that the agenda being promoted wasn’t what they wanted.

4) Blame the voters for desiring an agenda out of weakness.

Posted by: Royal Flush at April 20, 2011 1:46 PM
Comment #321952

Here is a prime example of “Dear Leaders” demented thinking as quoted in the NY Times.

“In the closed meeting, Mr. Obama argued that the overhaul would bring immigrant entrepreneurs to the United States and was a crucial piece of the economic recovery, according to several people who attended.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/20/us/politics/20immig.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha24

Really? “Immigrant entrepreneurs”? “Crucial piece of the economic recovery”?

Would any of my liberal friends care to defend these statements?

Posted by: Royal Flush at April 20, 2011 2:55 PM
Comment #321956
There is no reason that a firefighter or garbageman or paramedic can’t be a private employee.

Oh yeah, no reason at all. Forget all about why those workers ever became government employees in the first place. We can all turn back to the nostalgia of the past! Oh what fun it will be! For example, we can go back to a time when people would have to pay ALL of the competing fire brigades — just in case they’d all race over with their trucks and then stand around fighting over what company had gotten there first — and while the chiefs engaged in battle over that, the companies hired thugs and other local thieves could run inside and loot the place for valuables, and then everyone could stand around and watch while the house burned to the ground. See the film Gangs of New York for a perfect reference of what those quaint “good old days” used to be like.

It truly amazes me the way conservative ideas somehow always come straight out of the horrid, inefficient, totally corrupt wretchedness of this nation’s past.

Posted by: Adrienne at April 20, 2011 3:39 PM
Comment #321960

We already have private garbage collection services and private paramedic services. Why not have each city contract out to a private Fire service. Then you wouldn’t have all the fire brigades converging on one location, Right Adrienne? Then there would be competition.

Posted by: KAP at April 20, 2011 4:14 PM
Comment #321962

Oh I see KAP, so you’re thinking it should be more of a contractor sort of an issue? No competition once the contract has been signed and they can ask a town’s citizens, oops! I mean the customers, to either pay whatever their asking price is, or just have nothing at all?
Kind of like the few cable TV companies and internet service providers who have cornered the market for themselves? Or like the military contractors — who can ask any price and then simply provide shoddy services if they choose. Kind of like how it worked when those showers and sinks were built where our men and women in uniform ended up getting electrocuted on a daily basis — and yet the contractor somehow still gets to keep the contract.

Yeah, I’m sure that’s just the ticket! These towns and cities can just sign some contracts with a Corporate Firefighting Praetorian Guard — hey maybe even Blackwater XE, or KBR or Dyncorp will be interested in a piece of this action…

Posted by: Adrienne at April 20, 2011 4:57 PM
Comment #321964

So because a Firefighter is employed by a city, that makes them better, Adrienne? I’ve seen cities with some crappy services. Namely Cleveland 2-4hr wait time for police to show, I had a car fire and had to wait a half hour for the fire dept to show and the station was 6 blocks down the road. Granted some cities have good city services but some should privatize.

Posted by: KAP at April 20, 2011 5:15 PM
Comment #321967

Most of the firefighters in America are volunteer and are financed by local taxes, but I have no problem privatizing the rest.

Posted by: Bill at April 20, 2011 5:35 PM
Comment #321968

Hmmm. Outsourcing. I don’t know. If the government calls for bids, will there be criteria that has to be met? Or, will the contract go to the lowest bid?

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at April 20, 2011 5:36 PM
Comment #321969

S.L. There would have to be some kind of criteria to be met for the outsourcing. Going to the lowest bidder, that don’t always prove to be a good choice. Say if a city does outsource the company taking over has a pick of those that are already trained and the city could make a deal for those to be hired in the private company. Just an idea.

Posted by: KAP at April 20, 2011 6:10 PM
Comment #321970

KAP - That could work. I just don’t want to see it turn into the hot mess like prison privatization.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at April 20, 2011 6:17 PM
Comment #321971

KAP-
You give me a lot of reasons why it’s alright to do nothing. I think Harry Reid is a lot more accommodating than your give him credit for. But if your leader’s policy is to avoid deals at all costs, then there’s not much he can do to make deals with your side.

What about letting the tax rates rise on those making more than 250,000?

Look, it won’t solve everything, but it will certainly solve more, with much less ill effect on the average person’s pocketbook than what the Republicans are proposing. Since two thirds of this economy runs off of the average person’s consumption, I think it’s a much better idea.

Bring Mike in Tampa over here.

Privatization isn’t a panacea, especially when you’re still sending the tax dollars out to pay for it. Republicans tried something of this kind with Medicare Advantage. Years later, Obama would claw back some of the superfluous subsidies from that to help fund healthcare reform.

When we privatized part of the services in the army, we got to knock some parts of the army off our budget, but the result during Iraq was that we ended up having these civilian contractors in harm’s way who we then had to hire Blackwater to guard.

And that’s how you got Fallujah, because the Blackwater employees went off on their own in a way that real army fighters wouldn’t have, being part of the command structure.

It’s not always a bad idea, but it often becomes an opportunity for some public official to feed corporate welfare and tax dollars their crony’s way.

We must always keep in mind that the results we imagine from our favorite ideas, and the results we get from them, can and will often be two different things.

As far as Cleveland goes… Well have considered that cutbacks might be what gets you that kind of problem, and that paying somebody else cut rate to do the same job might not make things any better?

Royal Flush-
Is it really insane to keep all the big brains from around the world who come to learn here in this country? It certainly sounds better than allowing a brain drain in the other direction. Like somebody said, we should staple a work visa to every diploma we hand out. Get them doing good stuff for us, here. Preserve America’s advantage, instead of giving it away.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at April 20, 2011 6:21 PM
Comment #321972

Stephen, those examples for Cleveland were over 10 years ago, they haven’t gotten any better. IMO you give Reid more credit then he deserves but that’s just my opinion. I gave you my opinion on the tax raises for the 1/4 mill & up.

Posted by: KAP at April 20, 2011 6:48 PM
Comment #321974

S.L. That would pose a problem. I think with city monitoring and spot inspections, it might work.

Posted by: KAP at April 20, 2011 6:52 PM
Comment #321979

KAP:

So because a Firefighter is employed by a city, that makes them better, Adrienne?

Yes, I do think it makes them better — because professional firefighters can be held accountable to the people — and can be held to account by an entire city government. If they are privatized, they will only be held to account by the rich. Because if some people are ignored, or poorly treated, or even die because of they way they did their job, it means the court system is the only avenue of accountability when they perform badly. And vast numbers of people won’t be able to press charges due to lack of funds — so once again, it will turn into an issue of class warfare. Just like it once was, back in the old days of the competing fire brigades. The wealthy get afforded better treatment, and the poor get screwed.

Granted some cities have good city services but some should privatize.

I happen to live in one of the most liberal cities in the entire USA, and we’ve got an absolutely fantastic fire department. I’d hate to trade their professionalism and accountability to this community in for the unknown quantity of handing it over to some privatized firefighting corporation.

Bill:

Most of the firefighters in America are volunteer and are financed by local taxes,

Volunteer-only fire departments only work in smaller communities, they don’t work in large metropolitan areas. Such areas must have professional, extremely well trained, full time firefighters.

Spinny Liberal:

I just don’t want to see it turn into the hot mess like prison privatization.

It will. Those who hate government always seem to think that privatization is the only answer. But it never proved to be so in the past, and it still isn’t. The sad fact is, when city services don’t run properly, it’s very often because the people in charge of them are the same ones who claim to hate government. A self-fulfilling prophesy you might say.

Posted by: Adrienne at April 20, 2011 7:45 PM
Comment #321981

Adrienne, I got great services to, I can call the police and they’re here before I hang up, but the city next to me Cleveland has crappy services as I told you. Maybe we should try privatizing in cities that have crappy public service, couldn’t be any worse.

Posted by: KAP at April 20, 2011 8:05 PM
Comment #321984

KAP, why do you automatically assume that public services have to be privatized in order to work? If Cleveland has crappy fire fighting services, you need to let the city government hear about that fact. I just went and did a quick search for you, here’s the city of Cleaveland’s website.
Write, email, or call Mr. Martin Flask, of Public Safety, and/or Mr. Paul Stubbs, Chief of the Fire Division. You have every right to complain, and they really do need to know that it took that fire dept. a half an hour to make it to your burning car when it was only 6 blocks down that road.

And if they do nothing at all, or you get a dismissive or chilly reply, contact the mayor’s office and let him know that members of his cabinet are totally falling down on their jobs.

Posted by: Adrienne at April 20, 2011 8:55 PM
Comment #321986

People have complained Adrienne to no avail. The politicians and that includes the mayor have their heads up their backsides. Saddly they’re all democrats. People have moved out because of it including me. It’s cities like this that get me to thinking that private companies may do a better job, sure can’t do no worse.

Posted by: KAP at April 20, 2011 9:43 PM
Comment #322005

I wonder if it’s partially due to funding. If the city is strapped for cash and cutting money from things like firefighting, would there even be enough money to subcontract?

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at April 21, 2011 12:07 PM
Comment #322008

S.L. It all started when Dennis Khucinich was Mayor, and had his big battles with major companies in the city. Most started their exodus. Then there was the Flats district flop. Most of the retail stores moved out of Downtown for the subburbs because of saftey reasons people were avoiding Downtown Cleveland and other reasons. State taxes for corporations are among the highest in the country. With all the problems that Cleveland had with the revenue giants leaving the city and state the politicians can’t seem to get it through their thick Democratic heads that maybe tax insentives would bring industry and retail back into the city. The population of Cleveland went from close to 1 million when I was a kid to around 400,000 today. Cash straped yes, through political stupidity.

Posted by: KAP at April 21, 2011 12:33 PM
Comment #322011

OK, that explains it.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at April 21, 2011 1:02 PM
Comment #322012

KAP:

People have complained Adrienne to no avail.

That’s so weak KAP — sounds like nothing but a cop out. If others have been complaining, then every person with a complaint needs to add their voices to that chorus — it’s the only way that things ever change for the better in any community.

The politicians and that includes the mayor have their heads up their backsides. Saddly they’re all democrats. People have moved out because of it including me.

Don’t give me that. People in government (right or left) are the same everywhere you go. They never move to act until they actually hear about what’s going on — about how their leadership or lack thereof, is seriously failing their constituents — and hear it loud and clear from many voices. And they especially don’t like to hear about their failure to act on serious problems when they’ve ignored them and things get so bad that the local media starts talking about it. Because they are supposed to be accountable to us, and nothing could be worse for the continuation of their careers in government than the news getting out about their inability to lead and address critical problems. If things truly are as bad as you say, mentioning the possibility that the local media needs to hear about this issue when you write or speak to officials can often be a good way to get them to sit up and listen.

It’s cities like this that get me to thinking that private companies may do a better job, sure can’t do no worse.

I don’t agree at all, KAP. I think we’ve already seen how much worse private companies can do when it comes to addressing the needs and problems of America. Past and present. At home and abroad. This stems from the fact that they don’t have to give a rats ass about any of us, or what we think — they’re only in it for the money. And, we can’t vote them out of office when they fail, unlike politicians (left or right).

Posted by: Adrienne at April 21, 2011 1:21 PM
Comment #322015

Adrienne, You have no Idea what is going on where I’m from no more then I know what problems you face in your area. I know first hand what is going on in Cleveland because I’ve lived there 59 of the 64 years I’ve been around. So don’t give me your liberal BS that I’m wrong. Comment 322008 spells i9t ou8t to you.

Posted by: KAP at April 21, 2011 1:52 PM
Comment #322022

KAP, I’ve lived in several places across America in my time and I’ll be 50 myself in a few years. So I think I know exactly what I’m talking about. Politicians really are the same everywhere: they require a lot of public pressure to act on problems that need fixing, and a lot of public humiliation when they fail to act.

Your comments above spell out nothing to me, other than that you hate liberals, and liberal politicians and want to blame them for whatever you don’t like — even when you yourself refuse to inform them of the things that you don’t like.

Posted by: Adrienne at April 21, 2011 2:41 PM
Comment #322023

Adrienne, I blame politicians for being stupid no matter what party or if they are liberal, moderate, or conservative. It makes no difference to me stupid is stupid. If you have read some past comments of mine I do blame republicans and democrats for the mess we are in.

Posted by: KAP at April 21, 2011 3:08 PM
Comment #322026

What I hate Adrienne is someone who trys to defend stupidity.

Posted by: KAP at April 21, 2011 3:30 PM
Comment #322063

If you hate when someone tries to defend stupidity, then I really can’t understand why you would refuse take a few minutes to send out a couple of emails or make a couple calls to your local officials about that fire dept. problem? Especially after I took the trouble to find you their easily reachable email addresses and phone numbers?
It’d be really stupid not to give those guys a heads up on your experience — when it might actually end up saving someones life as a result.

Posted by: Adrienne at April 21, 2011 7:05 PM
Comment #322066

Adrienne, 1] I don’t live there anymore, 2] I did and 3] To no avail.

Posted by: KAP at April 21, 2011 7:16 PM
Comment #322077

Adrienne, It took 4 months of e mails and phone calls to my councilman to get the city to finish paving a hole they dug for a water line in front of my house for a new house that was built across from me. So you think calling or even e mailing the mayor would be better, think again LOL.

Posted by: KAP at April 21, 2011 7:57 PM
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