Democrats & Liberals Archives

Healthcare Reform: A Video Explanation.

For those who will see death panels lurking around the corner no matter what I say, this video will not help you. For all others, for more reasonable people, this is a good explanation of the benefits, costs, and ultimate budgetary impact of Healthcare Reform.

Posted by Stephen Daugherty at September 23, 2010 11:00 AM
Comments
Comment #309102

Stephen,

Thanks, it sure takes some of the edge off the hyperbole going around doesn’t it? But I’m afraid without the ‘public option’ the cost may increase a little. If we are lucky, it will merely be ‘break even’, or not add too much to the deficit.

My wife says we’d better learn the benefits of vinegar and herbs, because corruption will use up most of the good things about health care reform, drugs will become more and more inferior (foreign and untrustworthy), and we’ll be pretty much on our own. Of course, she’s the Republican Tea Baggie, so I mostly ignore her about important issues.

The ‘public option’ might have saved a lot into the future. In another twenty years, I’ll be ninety and won’t even care…er…remember…er…well, you know what I mean.

Posted by: Marysdude at September 23, 2010 12:18 PM
Comment #309104

What disturbs me is that people have become resigned to the corrupt way things run. What makes that disturbing to me is that this is exactly how the burden become so overwhelming.

The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.

That’s not the kind of self-fulfilling prophecy we should be encouraging. Realism is nice in dealing with real world conditions, with elements that don’t change with your point of view, like Global Warming.

What seems to me to be the case is that there is an organized presence in America looking to **** up the old New Deal order, but not an organized political presence that strongly, unequivocally defends liberalism the same way.

Folks are committed to defending Conservatism whether it works or not, while Liberals, unfortunately, both up on Capitol Hill and at home, complacently expect somebody to come along and save them.

Nobody’s going to save you, I’d tell them. You have to save yourself. You have to decide to organize to push your political point of view. Nobody else is going to do it for you. Nobody else is going to look out for your interests for you, just because you feel its the right thing to do.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 23, 2010 1:41 PM
Comment #309110

Stephen, I could not agree more. Why will we not stand up for ourselves? The conservatives and tea pary just bang it none stop, and we just sit back and let them do it. We need to all start standing up for beliefs. I am tired of them running roughshod over us with all their talking points.

Posted by: Belinda at September 23, 2010 2:51 PM
Comment #309114

There have been several polls taken over the past year and showing only 20% of the voting bloc declaring their selves to be liberal, close to 40% moderate, and another 40% conservative. With a lot of the moderates now connecting with conservatives, people are less interested in hearing the liberal agenda. I’m sorry to say that, but it’s true. Obama and the congressional democrats can be blamed for this, because the democrats completely shut republicans out of the debate. There have been a steady 57-65% of voters who want the HC Bill repealed and at the same time many conservatives wanted healthcare reform, only they didn’t want the radical Obamacare. The liberals have been getting their message out loud and clear through the MSM; Obama has been on the TV almost every day for the past 20 months, proclaiming what he wants to do and saying what the Republicans have done; and of course the congressional Democrats have pushed their agenda, so it’s not true to say the liberal message has not gotten out. Because it has. The problem is the voters are not receptive to the message.

I know there are debates about the use of polls, but all the polls I have looked at show the democrats are going to take a pounding in governorships, congressional reps, and senators. Whether the republicans can take control, remains to be seen, but to say that 60-65% of voters are ignorant of the facts and are simply falling for the republican misinformation is crazy. I believe it is the democrats who have failed to listen to the voters and have placed their heads in the sand.

There are no democrats who are running on the successes of Obama. In fact, many democrat candidates are touting how they voted against HC and the Stimulus, and are separating themselves from the democratic leadership and the president. Evidently these democratic candidates know something that the liberal writers on WB do not know.

Posted by: TomT at September 23, 2010 3:32 PM
Comment #309115

TT,

Nope…not…neither. Just some more ridiculous right wing patter.

Posted by: Marysdude at September 23, 2010 3:54 PM
Comment #309131

TT, there a lot of false statements there that need to corrected:


There have been several polls taken over the past year and showing only 20% of the voting bloc declaring their selves to be liberal, close to 40% moderate, and another 40% conservative. With a lot of the moderates now connecting with conservatives, people are less interested in hearing the liberal agenda. I’m sorry to say that, but it’s true.

While it’s true that when people self-identify their ideologies they tend to pan out 20% Liberal, 40% Moderate and 40%; the “moderates” tend to lean left on most specific policy questions. For example these people generally support abortion rights, support repealing DADT and oppose repealing the tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans.


Obama and the congressional democrats can be blamed for this, because the democrats completely shut republicans out of the debate.

Were you living under a rock in Spring/Summer 2009? Obama+Congressional Democrats invited the GOP along at every step along the way. Each invitation was rebuffed with nearly unanimous opposition.

There have been a steady 57-65% of voters who want the HC Bill repealed and at the same time many conservatives wanted healthcare reform, only they didn’t want the radical Obamacare.
I have seen polls showing up to 60% of Americans disapproving of the Health Care reform law; I have never seen a poll with that many supporting repeal of that law. In fact, I’ve seen polls showing a majority of people opposed to repeal.

Also, the Health care bill wasn’t radical. It didn’t make the government the primary provider (or even the payer) of care for example. Nor did it attempt to make changes to the doctor-patient relationship. It was a pretty right-of-center bill that came out of Romney’s reform in Massachusetts and the Heritage Foundation’s alternatives to the Clinton Health Care plan in the 1990s. The problem is when the Democrats came to the right in order to reconcile their differences with the Republicans, the GOP only shifted further to the right instead of embracing the Democratic Party’s open arms.

I know there are debates about the use of polls, but all the polls I have looked at show the democrats are going to take a pounding in governorships, congressional reps, and senators. Whether the republicans can take control, remains to be seen
No arguments from me here. I think it’s nearly certain that Boehner will be the next speaker. Control of the Senate will be close to even though. Chances are Joe Biden will get a workout exercising his powers under Article I Section III Clause IV of the Constitution.


There are no democrats who are running on the successes of Obama. In fact, many democrat candidates are touting how they voted against HC and the Stimulus, and are separating themselves from the democratic leadership and the president. Evidently these democratic candidates know something that the liberal writers on WB do not know.

I have seen Democrats in left-leaning districts that are basing their campaigns on what they think are Obama’s successes, but Democrats in swing districts are avoiding such topics because they know that this November’s election will feature a much more conservative electorate than the electorate in 2008. This is because many on the left aren’t very enthusiastic right now. Many of things that were promised by Obama haven’t come to fruition and there has been a lot of mudslinging from the right that has simply dampened morale.

My attitude is simply to sit tight and wait for the dust to settle. The GOP will control Congress in the spring and they will have quite a conundrum on their hands. Do they follow through on their radical right wing agenda? Or do they placate the moderates that voted for them and swing back to the center?

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 23, 2010 7:15 PM
Comment #309135

WR, I think you are confusing anti-incumbent voter sentiment with their leaning toward conservative ideology. On policy issues, the majority of American’s moderate positions haven’t changed much since 1998. Most Americans want peace through a strong defense. They want fiscal responsibility and safety nets. They want regulations in place that will provide financial and career predictability to their lives so they can rest assured their plans have a high chance of working out with due effort and diligence. And they want government to be as big as is required to accomplish these and are willing to pay for it if it works.

Posted by: David R. Remer at September 23, 2010 7:21 PM
Comment #309139

TomT,

While it is true that more voters declare themselves conservative or moderate than liberal, when it comes to actual issues, there is not such a clear cut distinction.

A good example is the subject of this article (health care reform). The conservative position has been consistently against single payer or even inclusion of a “public option” in the health care bill as “socialism.” However, public opinion, in reality, is exactly the opposite. Medicare is, after all, a single payer socialized health insurance system. It covers a significant segment of our population. It receives very strong public support. The “public option” in the proposed health care reform bill consistently polled at 60+% support. Perhaps, the public dissatisfaction with the eventual health bill has less to do with agreement with conservative philosophy and more to do with the absence of liberal philosophy in the form of a strong “public option.”


Posted by: Rich at September 23, 2010 7:51 PM
Comment #309143

TomT-
The beautiful part about arguing about polls is that you don’t have to address the mechanics of policy. Everything becomes about the influencing of public opinion, and that is malleable in all directions with the techniques of propaganda.

But while were on the subject of popularity, most of those policies that the video discusses are popular. It’s the package Republicans have made toxic.

Same thing with Liberalism. Most Americans support Gays serving openly in the military. That’s also the liberal position. Most Americans support Reform on Wall Street. So do the liberals. Most Americans support the disclosure of corporate donors on ads.

Most Americans support a path to citizenship.

The list goes on. Americans don’t support everything we do, but they support an awful lot of it.

But back to the practical stuff here, do you have any objections to the individual policy, or are you just putting out the standard Republican line on this matter?

The point of Healthcare coverage, the reason why people pay all these premiums, is to be covered when they are faced with the huge expenses of crisises, and the care needed to keep them healthy.

But instead of that being what happens, Insurers take an approach that seeks the healthiest customers and only keeps them covered until they get sick. That’s not a business, that’s a racket. You think governemnt shouldn’t step in. But why? Simply because of a theory? Let’s talk about a reality here: people pay the money they do in a good faith effort to cover themselves and others in the event of an emergency. If a business is cheating its customers by not doing what it’s supposed to do.

Why would you let businesses cheat customers out of their money? How is that good for the economy?

You tell me what policies your people would put in place, and what evidence exists that it would work. Your party’s had its chance to make the private system work. It’s not done a bang-up job since.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 23, 2010 8:31 PM
Comment #309144

Warped Reality:

You are correct, there are a lot of moderates who support abortion rights, repealing DADT, and not raising taxes on the rich. Although the Democratic Party has always tried to drive a wedge between rich and poor (class warfare), but that is another subject. The main issue is spending and the deficit and it is upon these issues that the November election will rest. The republicans have been wise to not make abortion or homosexuality an issue in this election.

“Were you living under a rock in Spring/Summer 2009? Obama+Congressional Democrats invited the GOP along at every step along the way. Each invitation was rebuffed with nearly unanimous opposition.”

Warped, you are a smart person and you know this statement is nothing more than liberal talking points. The Republicans were not included in the process and if you can wait a couple months I will be able to prove it. Even if the Republicans don’t take control of Congress, the Democrats will be more than eager to really invite Republicans into the process. I will attempt to prove it now; there are many Democrats who are now campaigning and telling their constituents, the HC Bill has a lot wrong with it. They are saying this because they know the voters don’t like the bill. Why weren’t the Republicans allowed to introduce amendments which would have agreed with the voters? Because the Democrats had complete control. Scott Brown ran on a ticket that he would vote against the HC Bill and won in a blue state and I might add won a senate seat that had been held by Kennedy for decades. This should have shown the Democrats, there was a problem with the current bill.
These are September polls on repealing:
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/health_care_law

http://www.resurgentrepublic.com/Resurgent%20Republic%20Blog/2010/09/13/latest-rasumssen-poll-aligns-with-resurgent-republic-on-votor-favor-for-health-care-repeal

I believe the HC Bill to be very radical; it opens the door for all kinds of shenanigans by government.

I’m glad to see we agree on the rest of your post, except for one thing, the republicans will have to live up to their promises to the TP. Remember the TP is made up of conservatives, not right wingers.

David, I agree with your statements to Warped.

Rich, don’t mix the sentiments of Medicare with a national HC system. The left makes a mistake to say if you support Medicare, you must also support HC. Voters don’t look at Medicare and HC the same way. This is seen in the polls and upcoming elections.

Posted by: TomT at September 23, 2010 8:33 PM
Comment #309146

There are parts of a HC Bill that I would support and there are things the government could have done to protect Americans. But Obama’s HC bill did none of these things. In fact, we are still learning of things we did not know was in the bill. I certainly do not support it as it is.

Posted by: TomT at September 23, 2010 8:48 PM
Comment #309147

TT,

“I believe the HC Bill to be very radical; it opens the door for all kinds of shenanigans by government.”

So is it more, or less “radical” than the “Health Equity and Access Reform Today Act of 1993” introduced by the Republicans in 1993?
By all accounts the bills are virtually the same, with the exception of which party authored the bill.

“Although the Democratic Party has always tried to drive a wedge between rich and poor (class warfare), but that is another subject.”

Since Spiro Agnew first used the word “Liberal” as a pejorative, the Republican Party has attempted, with no little success, to drive a wedge between the Democrats and the American people with their “my way or the highway” method of government.

The right can talk all they want about how the Democrats were included during the Bush years, except they fail to account for how Bush failed to find his veto pen until the Democrats took Congress in 2006.

Rocky

Posted by: Rocky Marks at September 23, 2010 9:19 PM
Comment #309149

TomT-

Although the Democratic Party has always tried to drive a wedge between rich and poor (class warfare)

I’m sure that when Republicans speak about Hollywood Elites, East Coast Elites, when they criticize the bailouts, when they make fun of Barack Obama for knowing what arugala is, or for not being able to bowl, when they criticize him as aloof or whatever, that they are not even thinking of using class distinctions and the resentments associated with them for their own advantage.

Right?

I’d say the rich do a good job of driving the wedge themselves. When you lay people off by the thousands, then carp about them still having benefits, when you call people on Welfare or government assistance lucky-duckies, when you exploit people’s tensions with you to get elected, of course you’re going to be hated by some.

The best way to reduce class warfare is to let people have their fair shake without forcing them to fight you tooth and nail for it. The more helpful you are to their fulfilling their needs, the easier things will get. Otherwise, expect hatred. You’ve earned it.

The Republicans were not included in the process and if you can wait a couple months I will be able to prove it.

Why can’t you prove it now?

Well, let me get ahead of you and tell you why:

It’s utter BS.

Your conservative talking points are failing you.

See, we can trade talking points back and forth. But if our intent is to get at an actual truth here, you’re at a disadvantage. Your party is giving you some lemons, in terms of arguments to defend.

believe the HC Bill to be very radical; it opens the door for all kinds of shenanigans by government.

What kind? This is the problem. You can make all kinds of arguments along these lines, all kinds of claims, but if we pull back the skin, is there any muscle on these bones?

A Democrat like me, through his research can tell you what exactly is wrong with a policy. And we don’t have to wait for an election to intercede to find out the facts, or what our next argument is.

Folks, we have a choice in this election, and not always an easy one: do we vote sentiments, or interests? Do we vote reflexively, or with a memory of what those with the kind of policies being put forward have actually done. Do we forget how we got in this mess, because we’re so beaten up by this mess? Does America just sit down and wallow in its own filth, no longer caring to do anything more but fulfill animal impulses towards pleasure?

Think, folks. It’s time for real change, not backsliding prompted by exhaustion.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 23, 2010 9:28 PM
Comment #309152

That was a great video explaining the Health Care Reform Law. Here is the link again http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1875349721?bctid=608833805001. The Kaiser Foundation produced the video and has a web site explaining the detail. But who will look at it? Surveys have shown that the majority of people support nearly all aspects of the HC law if asked about them individually. But if asked if they support the law they answer no. That’s because they don’t really know what is in it - and what’s not. What can you expect when most people get all their information from Fox news and never read a newspaper (or at least don’t read the news sectios)? The only person who can get enough air time to explain the way the truth about the HC law as well as the other accomplishments of this administration is the President. And somebody needs to tell him how to explain things clearly and succinctly

Posted by: DrTom at September 23, 2010 10:19 PM
Comment #309154

TOmT said: “The main issue is spending and the deficit and it is upon these issues that the November election will rest.”

Not according to the polls. The polls have the economy and jobs as the issues the election will rest upon. Not debt and deficits, though, those are a high priority for some, most notably the Tea Partyers. What is ironic is that the GOP was responsible for over 5 trillion dollars increase in deficits and debt over 8 years, and for some of the recession recovery deficits incurred since Democrats took control, by creating the Recession in the first place. The GOP has not abandoned its politics, and won’t, just because a handful of Tea Party candidates got elected to Congress. The GOP’s politics are to use tax dollars to reward their special interest lobbyists and wealthy campaign donors like the military industrialists, fossil fuel and pharmaceutical corporations, and big agriculture as first order business.

John Boehner outlined today the Pledge with America which provides for the VERY SAME agenda as promoted under the Bush administration which led to the Great Recession are now trying to recover from. If the Tea Partyers think a dozen or so of their candidates are going to control the GOP agenda as a majority, they are deluded.

And if Republicans think they will win voter points by turning the old and new poor back to the old health care system that left 10’s of millions bankrupt, they are sadly mistaken. Health care is the most prominent concern for Americans going forward, as the baby boom generation ages and requires increasing access to health care. Republicans are headed against that mainstream of middle class voter’s wishes for more affordable and accessible health care with a safety net.

Posted by: David R. Remer at September 23, 2010 11:14 PM
Comment #309155

TomT & David, thank you for your comments.

I think you are confusing anti-incumbent voter sentiment with their leaning toward conservative ideology.

Because liberals aren’t very enthusiastic, they will be returning to the polls in smaller numbers this November than in previous elections. Thus, the electorate will be more conservative even though very few individuals have changed their ideologies. Both anti-incumbent sentiment and apathy on the left will explain the Democratic Party’s poor performance in November. Heck, I’m pretty liberal myself, but I’m not planning on voting for my incumbent (Rep. Nicola Tsongas of Massachusetts’ 5th Congressional district). I see her as nothing more than the beneficiary of nepotism and a rubber stamp for Nancy Pelosi.

I think SD addressed your other points adequately.

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 23, 2010 11:20 PM
Comment #309156

TomT said: “But Obama’s HC bill did none of these things.”

Patently false. Children’s insurance can’t be canceled for preexisting conditions. About 40 million Americans who won’t be able to afford private health insurance premiums will have access to a more affordable government insurance program. Taking the uninsured out of the Emergency Rooms is going to reduce health care costs for everyone else through those savings of the highest cost health care out there. These and more benefits will be realized.

True enough, the Democrat’s reform utterly failed to deliver on driving down overall health care inflation, and that means our government is still on the road to bankruptcy under the growing debt burden of maintaining Medicare. But, their reform is going to provide relief from suffering for 10’s of millions of Americans going forward in the shorter term.

The business of passing universal single payer health insurance will have to wait for another day, since, Republicans insist on denying the majority of Americans what they wanted. And that is, after all, why Democrats didn’t dig their heels in on the Public Option, because they knew they couldn’t pass it giving Republican and a handful of conservative Democrat’s opposition. They took what they could get, and passed it, despite a year of pundits saying it couldn’t be done.

Those are the objective facts of the history of health care reform, to date. As long as the GOP continues to stand on the opposite side of issues from the majority of American voters, they cannot and will not remain a majority in government. They are the historical minority party, not due to fluke, but, due to their allegiance to minority wealthy interests on policy issues. I see no change in that position in the Pledge to America of more of the same from the Bush Jr. era - health care only for those who can afford it, tax breaks for the wealthiest, deregulation giving Wall St. its own reins, overturning Roe V. Wade, legalized prejudice against gays and lesbians, minimizing government services for Americans in need through no fault of their own, and yet another war in the Middle East with Iran as payback to the military industrialist supporters of the GOP.

That’s not the road the majority of Americans want to take to our future. The anti-incumbent movement may permit the Republicans a majority in one or the other of the Congress’ houses, but, it will be short lived, given the lack of ANY change in the GOP’s policy answers from the Bush years, to the challenges facing the American people.

Posted by: David R. Remer at September 23, 2010 11:35 PM
Comment #309157

Warped Reality said: “Because liberals aren’t very enthusiastic, they will be returning to the polls in smaller numbers this November than in previous elections.”

That is an assumption and prediction that may not prove to be as true as you make it sound. There is a lot of flux in the coming election. There are some moderate Republicans who won’t be voting for Tea Party candidates like Angle and O’Donnel, either, and that may very well leave the Democrats in the majority in the Senate.

As for the House, many former moderate Republicans have joined the anti-incumbent movement which could make otherwise predictable Republican district wins a toss up. We shall see. I truly do not think, with as many variables in play as there are, that November’s elections can be predicted at all. This may prove to be one of the most unpredictable mid-term elections our nation has seen in decades.

Which, by the way, has been one of VOID’s primary objectives from its inception. When incumbents can’t predict their own reelection with any certainty, they will be forced away from the agenda of their wealthy contributors and special interest lobbyists, and TOWARD addressing the common agenda of the anti-incumbent voters.

Posted by: David R. Remer at September 23, 2010 11:43 PM
Comment #309158

Warped Reality, Bravo on the nepotism thing. I can understand a carpenter teaching his/her trade to their children. But, a government representative is kind of like being a doctor. Its not a profession one can pass down as a skill. There is far more to it than that, including some unique personal characteristics and values that can’t usually be passed down from one generation to the next in a family. Temperament (and diplomacy and social skills) play an enormous role in effective leadership, and temperament varies widely from parents to children, being as it is, shaped by unique individual biochemistry as well as child rearing experiences.

This is going to become a major issue in America’s future, as doctor and nursing shortages combined with high compensation result in people who should never have been allowed to become doctors or nurses, getting their licenses.

Posted by: David R. Remer at September 23, 2010 11:52 PM
Comment #309164

Stephen,

Thanks for the video link.

Posted by: gergle at September 24, 2010 6:24 AM
Comment #309165

“… don’t mix the sentiments of Medicare with a national HC system. The left makes a mistake to say if you support Medicare, you must also support HC.”

The simple point was that overwhelming public support of Medicare puts a lie to the premise that Americans are philisophically opposed to socialized national health insurance. They are not.

Posted by: Rich at September 24, 2010 7:51 AM
Comment #309168

David,

In regards to the ideological composition of November’s electorate, we’ll have to wait and see. I bet both of our crystal balls are particularly cloudy; some elections have a way of defying all expectations. Hopefully someone commision a helpful exit poll so we can know more. However, my opinion remains the same; a lot of folks on the left who voted for Obama and Democratic candidates in 2008 will be staying home this year. Even I have succumbed to this attitude a little. Although I am registered to vote at my parent’s house in Massachusetts, I attend school on Long Island, so I must vote absentee. In 2008, I arranged all the paperwork back in August to make sure my ballot would come in the mail. This year, I still haven’t done that yet. I’m just not as enthusiastic about voting this year. In my congressional race, there’s the incumbent that I mentioned (she’s actually the widow of Paul Tsongas, not his daughter), but the GOP candidate is nothing more than a rubber stamp for John Boehner. There are two independent candidates, but they are either rightist or libertarian candidates (not quite my cup of tea). I’m probably just going to write-in the name of my States Senator, but I’m not excited to do that.

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 24, 2010 10:25 AM
Comment #309169

Dr. Tom-
It’s the same video as I posted the link to in the original entry.

David R. Remer-
My experience is, that in times of uncertainty, people cling to their most basic assumptions.

Unfortunately, most people’s most basic assumptions about politics, going into the last few years have been devastatingly wrong.

We need something else than just free-floating anger against Washington. I’ll tell you why I think that.

Put simply, throughout the course of my life, I’ve seen the politics get more cynical, more anti-establishment, more anti-government, and the net result, as far as I can see is the exhaustion and degradation of our society, and the debasement of our politics. I don’t see more cynicism as the answer, because it just seems to have defocused people from the issues that matter to them. People have gotten caught up in this meta level discussion to the exception of the issues.

I don’t mind meta. I wrote a Kos diary in defense of it. But you have to start from basic elements of policy advocation as part of it. Otherwise it become manipulateable by outside political forces as a means for a minority, a deserved minority in this case, to get back in power.

More importantly that just mere accountability, we need a sense of what people are supposed to be accountable for.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 24, 2010 10:37 AM
Comment #309170

Warped Reality, its MID-TERM elections for pete’s sake. Of Course, there will be fewer Democrats voting in Nov. than in 2008, a Presidential election year. But, the same MUST be said of Republicans. The historical fact is, fewer voters across the political spectrum show up for mid-terms than in presidential elections. So, your statement is meaningless except to state the gratuitously obvious.

Half the electorate is less enthusiastic about voting in mid-term elections than in presidential year elections, so you are not alone, but, it is a bi-partisan phenomenon. Polls still show the public favors Democrats on the majority of issues over Republicans by 7 to 9 percent. But, that too is a statistic which is meaningless for these elections. The reason is simple. Elections are won district by district, and region by region. Patty Murry and Barbara Boxer have come back up in the polls this last week, making for competitive races again. Its a regional thing. Republicans are polling considerably better in the Mid-West, but, again, that covers a lot of rural area, which is Republican in any race.

The district and regional polling are still very much in flux, reflecting the fact that there are a lot more variables to this election cycle than just party affiliation or lean. Wall St analysts are starting to buzz about a grid locked Congress for two years, helpless to do anything to stimulate the economy and jobs if Republicans take over the majority with a vetoing Democratic president. That has to be souring a few independent voters invested in the markets on voting Republican. Simple self-interest, there. There are just too many dynamic fluctuating variables from week to week, and district by district.

The enthusiasm factor is high for conservative Republicans. But is it that high for moderate and centrist Republicans? How about in districts and states with Tea Party contenders wanting to cut spending across the board and get rid of the SS and Medicare programs. Ooops! 10 to 1 the enthusiasm factor drops a lot for middle aged and elderly moderate Republicans in those Tea Party race districts.

A lot of moderate Republicans are wondering how the economy and employment gets back on its feet if government spending is cut across the board, stimulus is not continuing, health care reform is overturned creating massively more bankruptcies, over leveraged mortgages continue to dampen home equity values, and the loss of consumer demand continues to make investing in America less profitable than investing overseas? Tax cuts for the wealthy won’t do anything for America if those dollars are invested overseas where return on investment is higher. All important and common sense things to wonder about for moderate 50’s plus Republican voters, a significant number of which are fairly well educated. Could be a real surprise in the results as a consequence.

Posted by: David R. Remer at September 24, 2010 10:55 AM
Comment #309174
its MID-TERM elections for pete’s sake. Of Course, there will be fewer Democrats voting in Nov. than in 2008, a Presidential election year. But, the same MUST be said of Republicans. The historical fact is, fewer voters across the political spectrum show up for mid-terms than in presidential elections. So, your statement is meaningless except to state the gratuitously obvious.

Half the electorate is less enthusiastic about voting in mid-term elections than in presidential year elections, so you are not alone, but, it is a bi-partisan phenomenon.

I still think that Democrats will be hit harder by the drop-off in enthusiasm than the Republicans will. No use to continue arguing about it here when we are both ignorant of what will happen a month and a half from now. We’re better off waiting and seeing what will happen.

Not every GOP candidate is crazy like O’Donnell and Angle, many of them are establishment candidates like Rob Portman and Mark Kirk. I don’t think moderate Republicans will be voting for Democrats in any significant numbers this time around.

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 24, 2010 12:14 PM
Comment #309175

David, It is the single payer, government run healthcare that people don’t want, IMHO. Info is coming out that the Obama HC bill is going to raise prices, not lower them. What scares the voters is that once a national HC is imposed, it would be almost impossible to ever go private again. But this argument is a beating a dead horse. Conservatives don’t like it and liberals do and there is no compromise. So it’s a waste of time talking about it. We will see in 6 weeks, what the voters think.

Posted by: TomT at September 24, 2010 12:27 PM
Comment #309176

WR;

You are correct about the dems not being enthusiastic. There is a lot of spin taking place these days on WB.

Do mid-terms hurt the party in power, yes?
Is the party in power less enthusiastic, yes?
Is the minority more enthusiastic, yes?

But this election is special; the TP, although not a real party, has fired people up. Not just to vote democrats out, but to vote RINO’s out too. Explain it away all you want, but in my opinion, dems are going to take a big hit in Nov. Bigger than even some think.

My neighbor, down the road, is a flaming union liberal. He argued with the conservatives in our neighborhood about what Obama promised. He voted for Obama. He voted for the democrat congressman in our district in 2008. The guy that lives across from him is a TP conservative, who has flown his flag at half mast, ever since Obama was elected. They had several heated discussions. I can’t explain to you how liberal this guy was. On 9/11, we had a get together at the flag pole. There were about 25-30 people from our area who showed up. We said the pledge, sang America the Beautiful, and had a time of prayer for our nation. To make a long story short, the union liberal and his wife were there and he was really upset at Obama for HC and stimulus spending. Today, I noticed he has a campaign sign for the Republican congressman, running in our district, in his front yard.

Is this typical of what is going on across the nation, I don’t know? But I do know there are some strange things happening in blue district and states.

Posted by: Beretta9 at September 24, 2010 12:51 PM
Comment #309180

B9,

dems are going to take a big hit in Nov. Bigger than even some think.

How big do you think the Democratic Party’s losses will be?

Currently, I think they’re probably on the road to lose 40+ maybe 50 seats.

However, as has already been stated, liberal policy positions remain quite popular on an issue by issue basis. It’s only when things become labeled as liberal that they don’t fare as well. As soon as more and more of the HC bill’s provisions come into effect, the more popular it will become. Do I have a few problems with it? Of course I do. However, I think it was a good start and we can patch the holes later. I hope Speaker Boehner is interested in patching these holes rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If the right wants to attach tort reform to the HC law, I don’t think they’ll run into that much opposition from Democrats. The Democrats even offered to attach tort reform the first time around in exchange for Republican support in the House/Senate. Too bad partisan bickering stood in the way. I’m also sure the opposition to the individual mandate could be solved by a simple waiver. If an individual signs the waiver, they are free to go without insurance, but they lose the right not to be discriminated for preexisting conditions.
(caveat: I don’t know if Congressional Democrats would like the waiver idea)

Regarding the anecdote about your neighbor: I was in Massachusetts last January when Scott Brown surged and won, so I know how this sort of thing can happen. The key question will be this: Knowing that they owe a lot of their electoral support from people from the left end of the spectrum, will the GOP moderate itself after the election or will they steam forward without regard to their electoral prospects in 2012? I know some of the new senators in safe GOP districts will owe a lot of support to the Tea Party. In the Senate, Joe Miller of Alaska and Mike Lee of Utah owe a lot to the Tea Party movement. But other possible new senators have weak ties to the movement such as John Boozman, Roy Blunt, Mark Kirk and Rob Portman. How this plays out, no one can predict.

PS, with Castle out of the DE Senate race, I still think the GOP will fail to capture the Senate, but there is a very good chance Joe Biden’s going to get a workout exercising his powers under Article I Section III Clause IV of the Constitution.

TomT,
You might want to choose your words a bit more carefully. Single-Payer Health Care, Government-run Health Care (AKA socialized medicine) and the Health Care system established by the law passed 6 months ago are all different systems.

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 24, 2010 2:19 PM
Comment #309183

Stephen D… what name do you write under in Kos?
I love to read the Saturday Hate Mail entries.

Posted by: jane doe at September 24, 2010 2:32 PM
Comment #309184

jane doe,

SD doesn’t use a pseudonym on Daily Kos.

Click Here

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 24, 2010 2:38 PM
Comment #309192

If America will just wake up for one second, and see what reversing things means, perhaps the losses won’t be as great as predicted. It will have more to do with late minute communications by Democrats than anything the Republicans do.

Check this out to see why I think that.

Posted by: Marysdude at September 24, 2010 4:50 PM
Comment #309193

MD, your link is broken.

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 24, 2010 4:57 PM
Comment #309196

TomtT said: “David, It is the single payer, government run healthcare that people don’t want, IMHO.”

But, your humble opinion can’t stand up to the research polls. Sorry, guy, but, your opinion is outnumbered in this country by about 6.5 to 3.5, according to polling on the Public Option, which was the down payment on universal single payer health care that could have halted the bankrupting Medicare debt going forward. Which is why the polling was in such favor of it.

Posted by: David R. Remer at September 24, 2010 6:06 PM
Comment #309200

Thank you for the info. WR !

Posted by: jane doe at September 24, 2010 7:52 PM
Comment #309255

jane doe, Warped Reality-
WR’s right. I never posted under a pseudonym at Daily Kos. At the point I joined up, I had been posting here for quite a while, so there just didn’t seem to be a point.

Something the Republicans here should consider is that I actually don’t hold back against my own when I think they’re out of line over on Kos. I can be pretty harsh on people on my side when I think they’re arguments or attitudes are dumb.

The main difference, I would think is the greater use of uncensored four letter words, greater sarcasm, and a bit more willingness to take shots back when it comes to being insulted and berated.

I guess I have my record, here and there. The point of posting by the name, actually, was to get me to moderate things, in part. If I have my name attached to something, I might not be so tempted to be a hit and run troll on matters.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 25, 2010 10:48 PM
Comment #309258

Stephen,

I admire your spirit and honesty, but I have written perhaps a couple thousand ‘Letters to the Editor’ in the last thirty years, all of them under my real name. I’ve also received several life threats, some written in crayon, most of the threats were from ‘barkshooter’ group members. Some of the creeps you argue with, or find fault with are perhaps dangerous…just a thought…it is not difficult in modern days to track someone down.

Posted by: Marysdude at September 26, 2010 6:55 AM
Comment #309263

“You might want to choose your words a bit more carefully. Single-Payer Health Care, Government-run Health Care (AKA socialized medicine) and the Health Care system established by the law passed 6 months ago are all different systems.”

Warped this might explain why many are against the law passed 6 months ago.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_poll

Posted by: j2t2 at September 26, 2010 10:05 AM
Comment #309273

Warped Reality,

Sorry about the link problem. It was just a referral to a Daily Show segment wherein Jon expounds on, “Republicans do some soul-searching and come back with fresh new ideas that sound exactly like their old ones”. But, just knowing what is going on does not stop it. My post was weak, and the link would not have contributed much anyway.

Posted by: Marysdude at September 26, 2010 1:48 PM
Comment #309338

MD,
No problem. I watch almost every episode of Jon Stewart’s show, so I know what you’re referring to.

Posted by: Warped Reality at September 27, 2010 7:49 PM
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