Democrats & Liberals Archives

Scare Tactics and Rhetoric, Just What the Doctor Ordered

You could oppose a public health care option for any number of reasons, some valid, most not. But when your argument against health care reform is that it will lead to government mandated euthanasia its time to get your head out from its moist hiding place.

As if the birthers weren’t bad enough, now we have another ludicrous fringe position given credence on network and cable news programs by mindless partisan zombie pitchmen; the euthanasia-mania movement. A provision in the proposed health care legislation would require doctors to be paid for their services when their patients approach them to discuss end of life options. This has generated a firestorm of morally based opposition that has become the newest trick to defeat health care progress.

Anyone with half a brain realizes that this opposition has nothing to do with government mandated euthanasia if for the simple reason that there is no mention of euthanasia anywhere in the bill. This is as blatant and transparent an attempt to sway public opinion based on lies and misinformation as is the birther movement. As usual this position is nothing more than a moral judgment on society made by the far right and their sympathizers lusting to regain power.

Euthanasia is an exceedingly difficult topic because it forces us, at least for a few seconds, to contemplate our own mortality. In America discussions of death are kept to a bare minimum, except for talk of heaven, and the topic of suicide is a particularly difficult subject to engage in healthy discourse. Instead of dealing with death, there are those who prefer to believe that a person has no right to control how their life will end because it is up to “the One who gave us life [because he] has, or ought to have, sole discretion as to when it ends.” It is possible to oppose suicide for non religious reasons, but the most absurd objections come from self-professed conservative folk who can’t imagine taking their own life, no matter how horrible it has become, because it is not theirs to take. Call me crazy, but someone who has been suffering from bone cancer for years and has no hope of recovery—except maybe for clasping their hands together and hoping really hard—has every right to end their own suffering. Apparently women don't have the right to their own bodies and nobody has a right to their own life. What kind of freedom is that?

Why is it that the most ardent opposition to the most difficult health care topics, such as sex education, abortion, and assisted suicide, come from morally arrogant people? Their cries of opposition usually take on the guise of reasonable, compassionate, conscientious religious objections, but all that is really just an attempt to force personal belief onto others. I can at least accept some of the arguments against abortion, but opposing adults having the right to be able to end their life when impending horrible death becomes inevitable is just cruel and inhuman. Pandering to the arrogant morality of others for political gain is nothing new in American politics, and an especially revered tactic of the GOP, but even this is pretty low. If you Republicans who oppose health care reform can’t stop Obama’s plan with policy of your own, your only recourse is to charge the morality police with the task of fear mongering and bible thumping? If I said “typical” would that be an overgeneralization?

I really am trying to cut down on my GOP bashing because it’s getting a bit dreary. At this point if you don’t realize the Republican Party is a desolate wasteland inhabited by racism, xenophobia, hatred, and paranoia then you haven’t been paying close enough attention. But how devoid of intellect is the GOP that even after a countrywide rejection of their policies and tactics they embrace their loonies more staunchly than ever and give them a louder bullhorn to preach through? As someone completely against political parties it is exceedingly fascinating to watch the most virulent and menacing political party in American history implode under the weight of its own crapulence.

Posted by Michael Falino at August 5, 2009 4:48 PM
Comments
Comment #285673

Some folks need to get informed. The CBO puts the latest version of the bill at 237 billion over 10 years in deficit spending. The total estimate is now between 850 and 900 billion, where all but the 237 billion is paid for by reprioritizing the budget and cost savings at the end of that 10 years, from what I am hearing from the analysts.

It’s nothing to smile about, unless you happen to be one of the millions who WANT health care insurance but can’t afford it.

That 237 billion deficit spending breaks out to 4,937.50 per newly insured person over 10 years, or, $493.75 per year per new insured person.

If you can find health insurance that cheap, you truly have something to smile about. Medicare/Medicaid will dwarf that some at the end of 10 years, without health care reform. This recession has cut years off the Medicaid/Medicare anticipated revenue surplus, resulting in new estimates showing Medicare deficits in as little as 2 years from now.

This is not about liberals or conservatives, though many of each try to make it so. It is about humanity toward our fellow Americans and saving the taxpayers and our economy from the ravages of double digit annual health care inflation coming soon to a paycheck near you, if you get one, in the form of higher premiums and higher taxes if we DON’T pass health care reform which lowers health care costs going forward.

Sorry about the complex sentence. It’s a complex issue.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 5, 2009 7:10 PM
Comment #285676

David R. Remer-
That’s alright. Like Einstein said, make things as simple as you can and no simpler.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 5, 2009 8:19 PM
Comment #285678

Absolutely fantastic quote!

Posted by: Mike Falino at August 5, 2009 8:34 PM
Comment #285691

If anyone really wants to know why a health care reform bill will continue to get stalled just try clicking on the link below which I hope works. We have been sold out long ago by the 41st congress of this country back in 1871. We are not a free people as we might think we are. We are no longer soveriegn people. Treason was committed against us long ago for the sake of profit and power.

http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/us_corporation.htm

Posted by: Victor R Romano at August 6, 2009 9:01 AM
Comment #285700

I’m going to guess that the hypocrisy of this post is the reason for such a low response.

Morality police? Forcing personal beliefs onto others?
Um, whats the reasoning behind the bill that gives govt control over our healthcare which started this government mandated euthanasia talk?

Scare tactics and rhetoric?
“At this point if you don’t realize the Republican Party is a desolate wasteland inhabited by racism, xenophobia, hatred, and paranoia then you haven’t been paying close enough attention”

Ah, yeah, those damn evil Republicans and all their scare tactics and rhetoric.

Posted by: kctim at August 6, 2009 12:41 PM
Comment #285701

kctim, ummm, yep. Sorry bubba, but it is Republicans behind this nonsense. Perhaps you should have a discussion with your party’s leaders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct—N3hJfxs

Posted by: gergle at August 6, 2009 1:04 PM
Comment #285703

The Republicans are the ones behind trying to instill govt run and controlled healthcare?
Wow, that’s news to me gergle.

Posted by: kctim at August 6, 2009 1:39 PM
Comment #285705


Gergle, you beat me to it.

The Republicans have turned out the attack dogs to attack a Republican ammendment to the healthcare bill.

Posted by: jlw at August 6, 2009 1:52 PM
Comment #285707

kctim,

No, the scare tactics, mr.’s literal and obvious. I was replying to your statement.

Ah, yeah, those damn evil Republicans and all their scare tactics and rhetoric.

I guess actually looking at links is stressful to you.

Reading comprehension is an important skill. Perhaps that explains a few things.

Or is sarcastic quips all you can muster in response?

Posted by: gergle at August 6, 2009 2:16 PM
Comment #285709

So, what, Democrats are motivating their base to promote anti-healthcare reform? I don’t see Democrats telling people that the government wants to kill old folks.

Posted by: Mike Falino at August 6, 2009 2:33 PM
Comment #285711

Mike,

No, that was 1985 when they were doing that.

You seriously don’t remember the ‘Republicans want to kill old people’ ads that were sent out by the Democrats in the 80s?

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 6, 2009 2:38 PM
Comment #285715

Heck, don’t have to go back to 85, how about 95 when we saw an ad of a ‘republican’ throwing a old lady down some stairs, in response to an attempt to fix medicare?

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 6, 2009 2:56 PM
Comment #285718

Rhinehold,

So if individual savings accounts were used as substitutes for medicare and social security, where would those old people be today?

Guess those IRA’s are quite what Republicans cracked them up to be.

Maybe there WAS something wrong with that idea?

Posted by: gergle at August 6, 2009 3:43 PM
Comment #285719

ack!!! aren’t quite cracked up to be.

I make that typo consistently. arrggghh!

Posted by: gergle at August 6, 2009 3:45 PM
Comment #285720

rick scott - opposition leader to healthcare - stated since he had defrauded the gov’t of billions of dollars thru his hospitals it was “proof” that health care wouldn’t work. this is the man people are listening to. this is crazy!! he blamed the gov’t program for his crime. spin, spin, spin.

really right - this is who you are rallying for? such an upstanding citizen? by the way, he goes in and buys up all hospitals in specific areas, closes them so he controls the prices in the hospitals left open. better find out who is really behind your rallies. please OPEN your eyes.

Posted by: bluebuss at August 6, 2009 3:58 PM
Comment #285727

“You could oppose a public health care option for any number of reasons, some valid, most not.”

First who are you to decide that what others oppose are not valid period? If they think the reason are valid and oppose them, and they differ from you, doesn’t make then not valid.

As far as the end of life requirement. Actually it should be between you and those closes to you. Those that have to sign the DNR, and take off the life support(yes I have had to do it). Having to pay a doctor to dicuss this is wrong. He needs to be made aware of your wishes.

There is a lot in this bill that is just CRAP, and Congress should listen to the voters, but then again when have they..

KT

Posted by: KT at August 6, 2009 4:42 PM
Comment #285733
So if individual savings accounts were used as substitutes for medicare and social security, where would those old people be today?

Guess those IRA’s are quite what Republicans cracked them up to be.

Maybe there WAS something wrong with that idea?

Actually, they would be much better off. You do realize there is a difference between Mutual Funds and stocks, right? And that only one Mutual Fund has ever lost money (and that was due to some fraud) right?

Meanwhile, Medicare and medicaid are almost bankrupt and at best SS returns %1 increase on investment for the lifetime of the participant…

Or… were you looking for an ‘emotional’ argument and not a fact based one?

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 6, 2009 5:12 PM
Comment #285735

gergle
You were replying to my statement which was in reference to Falino, who criticized scare tactics and rhetoric and then provided his own scare tactics and extreme rhetoric. Most would figure “this business” to mean the topic being discussed, rather than just a childish little tit for tat.
Guess I was wrong about that, my bad.

“Or is sarcastic quips all you can muster in response?”

Mike’s post went from what, 5? to 16, I believe my sarcastic, but very truthful, quips worked just fine.
Care to address the hypocrisy in this post? Such as how the left wanting to have the right to end life how one wants, but not live ones life how one wants? How the left blames it all on the evil right-wing morality police and condemns them for forcing their personal beliefs onto others in one breath, and then turn around and say they believe govt run healthcare is the moral and humane thing to do in the next breath?

Or should we just be quiet and praise the hypocrisy like good little Obamanauts?

Posted by: kctim at August 6, 2009 5:19 PM
Comment #285739

Rhinehold,

And that only one Mutual Fund has ever lost money (and that was due to some fraud) right?

You seriously believe that?

http://www.businessweek.com/investing/insights/blog/archives/2008/11/every_stock_mut.htmlBlock

Posted by: gergle at August 6, 2009 5:55 PM
Comment #285740

kctim, Want to explain the Rachel Maddow link I gave you and you avoided with a smart assed comment?

I explain the hypocrisy this way:

Do you wish to explain how you have not lived life the way you want because of the left wing?

By the way, isn’t dying by your own choices and wishes…ummm…doing what you want?

Which vague left wing thingy is proposing government run health care? Have you read the bill? Do you even have one clue as to what you are talking about?

What is being proposed is a way to insure the currently uninsured, increase efficiency, and reduce costs long term. It does involve using taxpayer money to help enact these reforms. It doesn’t involve Government run health care.

Perhaps you should read the contents of these posts rather than winding up for wisecracks, you might learn something.

Spewing some corporate developed rants and slogans makes one look more like a Zombie than a thinking debater.

Posted by: gergle at August 6, 2009 6:12 PM
Comment #285745

KT,

A living will is not the same as your relatives signing a DNR. A living will ensures that YOUR wishes are carried out, and usually requires a lawyer, not a doctor, to be paid.

Some folks may have relatives that are not too fond of them, and may happily sign a DNR.

My own mother did not want to sign a do not resusitate order. She feared being killed in hospital. It was an irrational fear. My sister obtained an enduring power of attorney and signed a DNR for her. She was in the late stages of Colon cancer. Dragging it out would have been more cruel, in my opinion. It did require us to pay an attorney.

We also had the choice to stop the feeding tubes when she slipped into unconsciousness, my sister was hesitant, I asked her to call an old family physician and country doctor whose wife had also died of cancer. He said he couldn’t tell her what to do, but stated that he had stopped the feeding tubes for his wife. I explained to my sister that he was telling her what his opinion was. She elected to continue water but stop the food. My mother died within the week.

I would have stopped both, but understood my sisters fears. She wanted our mother to live and if dying, not to be uncomfortable. My answer to her was a question, ” Are you doing this for her or to make it easier for yourself?”

Posted by: gergle at August 6, 2009 6:32 PM
Comment #285747

scare(OED), v.
[ME. skerre, a. ON. skirra ..]
1. a. trans. To frighten, terrify.
a1639 W. WHATELY Prototypes I. xi. (1640) 107 Let not every shew of danger skare you.
1686 tr. Chardin’s Trav. Persia 165 Such dreadful Precipices, that scar’d me to look down.
1700 T. BROWN Amusem. Ser. & Com. 37, I that am always more scared at the sight of a Sergeant, or Bayliff, than at the Devil and all his Works.
1810 SCOTT Lady of L. II. xxx, A thousand villages in flames Shall scare the slumbers of King James!
1875 JOWETT Plato (ed. 2) V. 505 Such practices..scare the multitude out of their wits.

Posted by: ohrealy at August 6, 2009 6:38 PM
Comment #285771

I think what differentiates this from usual pokes and prods of fearmongering that is normal in politics, is the extensive, pervasive, and deliberate widespread campaign of all out political mobilization which rather than take advantage of a natural political state works to deliberately create a shift of opinion by bombarding people with fear tactics in such a way that they don’t even realize sometimes (as is the case with the Hecklers being brought into different townhalls) that they’re being played.

I mean, I left behind a predilection for conspiracy theories long ago, but this stuff is sinister in the layers of complexity and dishonesty with which these campaigns are carried out. These aren’t people who want to convince you of things by showing you evidence. These are people who want to essentially transport you into a parallel universe of rhetoric, specially formed and delivered to bamboozle you. And the worst thing is, the people who do most of the dirty work probably don’t realize just how much they’re being used.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 6, 2009 10:38 PM
Comment #285796

gergle
“Do you wish to explain how you have not lived life the way you want because of the left wing?”

Can I use the money I earn how I want in order to live the life I want for myself? No. Left wingers use govt to create programs so that they can take money to support their morals and personal beliefs.

“By the way, isn’t dying by your own choices and wishes…ummm…doing what you want?”

Uh, yeah. That is why I have no problems with people doing themselves in whenever they think they need to.
You see gergle, unlike left wingers who “say” they believe in it, I actually believe in free choice and it doesn’t have to fit my morals or personal beliefs.

“Which vague left wing thingy is proposing government run health care?”

Sigh, yes I am going through it, but that doesn’t matter one bit. If govt is paying for it, they are controlling it. If they are controlling it, they are running it. If govt is running it, they are controlling the people. Why? Because they are paying for it.

“What is being proposed is a way to insure the currently uninsured, increase efficiency, and reduce costs long term.

And this is all good because other huge govt programs like socialist security, medicare and others are so efficient and low cost? Thats laughable. The enormous cost and complete disregard for the people and their rights should be enough for every hard working American to shy away from adding even more feel good nanny state programs.

“Spewing some corporate developed rants and slogans makes one look more like a Zombie than a thinking debater”

Wow, you were really on a personal tear in this post man. Now, don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind it and enjoy the laughs, but, speaking from experience here, be careful about going after the messenger. WatchBlog needs all it can get nowadays.

Posted by: kctim at August 7, 2009 10:14 AM
Comment #285813

socialist security? nice. you don’t want gov’t programs - period right? am i getting this right?
how is it that the right is now so against spending? we just endured 8 years of out of control spending. largest increase of the gov’t. what were all of you doing? you were defending it. now it is wrong.

the question now is WHY now is it wrong. because it is going to benefit those that are poor. those that need help, who don’t have access to microphones. it just may work, and the poor white voters who will benefit from this may actually understand what this is about, and not be a pawn for large corporations. i think repubs are scared to death that the populace just may figure out that the dems are not evil, and they have improved their lives. quite scary isn’t it?

the truth is being distorted. it is time for some of the repubs to come clean. your talking heads to tell the truth. or at least stop telling the elderly that obama wants them dead. it is time for civility. since when in america do townhall meetings resemble a wwf event. it is unacceptable, and the republicans know it. we as americans are educated. since when do people come in and just shout over everyone? that is insane behavior. beating on doors, walls, and windows, why? it’s like a prison riot. behave civilized, and you will be heard.

personally, i think it is a sad, and scary trend.

Posted by: bluebuss at August 7, 2009 1:28 PM
Comment #285815

Ahhh, I see. This is Rhinehold’s old argument. Paying taxes is restricting your freedoms.

Sorry, the slogan taxation without representation was the revolutionary slogan. We won that war. We elect representatives now. Deal with it. Being an anarchists doesn’t convince me, or other reasonable people, that your freedoms are crushed.
By the way you are now paying for the uninsured through property taxes and other fees. The difference is you will save money with these reforms. Paying for rational healthcare rather than emergency room visits for untreated conditions, which of course ends up being more profitable for the for profit hospitals which avoid poor areas, and insurance which doesn’t carry this burden, and dumps you on the first sign you are seriously sick. See the links in my other posts here.

Since you are paying for “it” whatever “it” is, aren’t you controlling it by electing representatives. At least that’s the same logic you are using. What’s the matter? Did your guy lose because his BS helped create the fiasco over the last 10 years?

Laughable as it may be to you. Look at the numbers. Compared to private insurance they are geniuses. The facts don’t lie. Some Republicans are known to, however.

If it doesn’t apply to you, then it isn’t meant to be directed at you. Zombies exist. I see them on the late show all the time. Are you a Zombie denier?

C’mon kctim, rather than simply throwing insults, getting defensive, and throwing stones, how about some facts to counter what I’m saying? Psst. The secret is you don’t have any, because the only basis for keeping things as they are, is to line the pockets of the insurance companies and hospitals that are stealing from you now.

The sad part, kctim, you are arguing the case for people who are in essense stealing from you, by mouthing the slogans they are putting out.

Ask yourself why healthcare has risen well above the national inflation rate, and who has profited from that? Why do we pay more for healthcare than any other industrialized country?

Posted by: gergle at August 7, 2009 1:34 PM
Comment #285821

gergle, that is an excellent point. we are paying for the uninsured. i think it needs to be said again. WE ARE PAYING FOR THE UNINSURED!! when a person files bankruptcy due to hospital bills do they think it just disappears? no - it trickles down to everyone. you see, bills, and increases trickle down - prosperity doesn’t. and those that are prosperous are fighting tooth and nail for status quo. i am just having trouble understanding how they get people who are not getting rich on the system to fight so hard and soon deadly (if things don’t calm down) for them. i mean, we had riots for equal rights. well, to be fair, it was marches that turned into riots after small groups of people attacked the marchers.

i think commentators, talking heads, and fox news entertainers need to check themselves. their actions and choice of words are enciting near riot conditions. this is not funny, or productive. but, like i said they want status quo. they profit too much off americans. they will divide this country due to profits. they will pit us up against one another.

now that you know we are already paying for the uninsured, are you going to still continue to fight for the wealthy elite? will you still wage their battle?

Posted by: bluebuss at August 7, 2009 1:56 PM
Comment #285831

bluebuss
Sorry, but your assumptions are incorrect. I was against the Bush spending frenzy and worried about all the debt.

Spare me the racists rants and how giving up choice, freedom and liberty will somehow “improve” things.

gergle
I love how you guys associate belief in the Constitution with that of anarchists. It pretty much explains why you refuse any type of counter argument.
You see, leftists figure “well, we are paying for it now, so why not force others to pay for it for us,” so its no big deal to them. Others, however, are saying we should not be paying for it in the first place, we are a country founded on the principles of individual rights and freedoms.

The majority of us are satisfied with our healthcare plans and yes, we consider it pretty rational. Using extremes to justify your desire to take away our free choice is weak. If the extreme cases were so important to leftists, they would actually do something about it rather than sit around complaining about it and wanting govt to do it for them.

I didn’t mean to seem defensive gergle. I really do enjoy you guys and our blogging. I believe though, that my sticking to facts, rather than emotion, may come out wrong sometimes.

Facts to counter your arguments?
Being forced to pay for something does not give one an option or choice.
You cannot prove this so called reform will save any money in the future. You can only use numbers you agree with and guess. I however, can take a look at socialist security, medicare and other huge govt programs and see that taxes always rise in order to pay for them. They never go down and govt never gives us a break, not even in good times. Instead, they think of new reasons to spend more money.
Our nation is in debt up to its ears and adding more debt is a bad idea which will require future generations to pay for. Hated that under Bush, hate it now.
Govt policy created the situation we are now in.

“By the way you are now paying for the uninsured through property taxes and other fees.”

Because of govt policy. But, you know, I still have some say in just how much, how? By still having the choice in where I live.

I can counter your arguments all day gergle. Individual rights and freedoms are easy to defend, especially when one is consistent.

Posted by: kctim at August 7, 2009 2:57 PM
Comment #285865

Sorry, kctim,

The Constitution does allow for taxes and the general welfare. It’s also allows for aiding the commerce of the US.

I love your logic, or lack there of. I’m paying more for it now, therefore, despite projections that cost CAN be brought down over time, I will ignore these facts, and continue to oppose this idea. I will then complain that the Constitution says I don’t have to pay taxes. Well, sorry, no it doesn’t.

If you want to make the argument that the Federalist papers (as Rhinehold does) argues for small government, I will remind you, as I do him, this is not the late 1700’s frontier.

I’m guessing you were pro Clinton since he eliminated deficits and hated Reagan?


Sorry, you haven’t made a sensible counter yet. You have simply shouted, “I’m free from taxes.”
No, you aren’t. No matter how much you hate the people Americans voted in who legislated them. You are free to run to some distant land or island where you can feel “freer”. Good luck finding that in the real world.

Please note: crying that I am attacking you is completely inaccurate. What I am attacking is your silly notions of “freedom” without any concession to responsibility.

I shouldn’t have to be taking both sides of this.

Perhaps some more thought on this subject is in order.

Posted by: gergle at August 7, 2009 8:40 PM
Comment #285866

Lol. I meant you hated Reagan, not Clinton hated Reagan. Commas are so small and yet important.

Posted by: gergle at August 7, 2009 8:42 PM
Comment #285876

kctim,

Just so I’m clear, other than the catch-all, tax avoiding rant that you call consistency, do you have any facts to dispute that health care reform is needed and that the plan Obama proposes is a reasoned and rational approach? If the answer is no, then I rest my case.

Posted by: gergle at August 7, 2009 10:53 PM
Comment #285981

gergle
I agree that it probably requires a little more thought, so I will try and be clearer for you this time.

Since our Constitution limits the powers of govt over the people, can you show where in the Constitution it gives govt the power to tax us for healthcare and the like? No, you cannot. Seeing how that is the case, all the leftists have to do is pass an amendment which gives the govt the right to use force and take from and give it to another.
Leftists believe all Americans want the govt to have control, so that should not be a problem. It would also quiet many people who believe in individual rights and freedoms.
Nobody is arguing against paying taxes to run govt.

Yes, I have made counters, the left just refuses to see them because they are fixated on using govt to force everybody to believe as they do and support their ideas.
FACT: The majority of Americans are satisfied with their present healthcare plan.
FACT: The majority of Americans do not wish to pay more taxes for a govt run and controlled plan.
FACT: Such a plan limits a persons right to choose the plan they feel is best for them.
FACT: Such a plan will add massive amounts to our debt, which we are already up to our eyeballs in.
FACT: Socialist security and medicare taxes always increase in order to pay for them. They do not go down. This plan will be the same way and will only continue to add to the peoples burden.
FACT: Yes, we already pay for it now, but what happens when we are paying for two, three or even four times as many people? The costs go up.

I wasn’t “crying” to you for attacking the messenger. As I said, it does not bother me the least. I was only speaking from experience and simply mentioning it. I will not make the mistake again. My bad.

I was not political at the time, so I did not hate or like Reagan or the early part of clintons reign. I only came to dispise clinton when he disgraced the office of President, began gutting the military and assaulting the 2nd Amendment.

The consistency I spoke of is that I apply the same respect to ALL of our rights in ALL cases, instead of just the rights that fit into a personal agenda.

Nobody is arguing that healthcare reform is not needed. They are arguing that giving govt control and running it, is not the answer. I welcome sensible reform that does not do that.

Thee Obama’s plan is not reasoned or rational and I gave you some facts that show so. You can dismiss those facts because they go against what the holy one says, but you cannot dismiss the FACT that millions and millions of people want no part of his plan.

Posted by: kctim at August 10, 2009 12:52 PM
Comment #285987

Sensible reform certainly will not come in the form of some glorious and as yet unknown private corporation that will suddenly carry the cross of health care so people can live life with any quality at all. Cost is an issue, but you cannot think that a sensible option will come from anything else than the government. I know sensible is a bit absurd to use here, but what I mean is that so long as it isn’t a corrupt bureaucracy, a public health care option is the only way to go to provide guaranteed coverage for everyone. I’m sorry, but socialism is required in this regard. Health care should be treated like firefighters or Police; there for everyone to benefit when needed!

Posted by: Mike Falino at August 10, 2009 6:13 PM
Comment #286029

kctim,

Thanks for a more reasoned response.

FACT: The majority of Americans are satisfied with their present healthcare plan.

Well, sort of, kind of, close to a fact. Perhaps factoid.

Key survey findings included that 84 percent of those who are currently insured are satisfied with their health care. For those without insurance, only 46 percent had some level of satisfaction with their health care. Almost 80 percent agreed that rising healthcare costs are hurting American businesses. An expanded role for government in health care is opposed by 48 percent of Americans, while 44 percent support it. Forty-six percent of respondents agreed that a public plan is needed to “keep insurance companies honest.”

Half of the insured population uses virtually no health care at all. The 80th percentile uses only $3,000 (2002 dollars, adjust a bit up for today). You have to hit the 95th percentile to get anywhere interesting, and even there you have only $11,487 in costs. It’s the 99th percentile, the people with over $35,000 of medical costs, who represent fully 22% of the entire nation’s medical costs. These people have chronic, expensive conditions. They are, to use a technical term, sick.

Actual polling of all Americans:

In total, 71 percent of Americans would advise their representatives to pass “legislation now being considered in Congress.” More than half of those who want reform — 41 percent of all Americans — want it done sometime before the year’s end. Only 24 percent would advise their representatives to oppose reform outright.

I won’t get into whether polling is always honest.

FACT: The majority of Americans do not wish to pay more taxes for a govt run and controlled plan.

Gee, I bet that result was hard to get. When is the last time anyone wanted to pay more taxes? What you are missing here is that whether in taxes or other means you are already paying for these costs. This is a plan to reduce costs. It’s kind of sad you don’t realize you are being screwed now, and don’t want to even try to fix it because the evil government is involved. The above poll results shows most people aren’t duped by this canard.

FACT: Such a plan limits a persons right to choose the plan they feel is best for them.

Sorry, this is patently false.

FACT: Such a plan will add massive amounts to our debt, which we are already up to our eyeballs in.

It could add debt and will short term. It could work as planned, and reduce our massive debt longer term. Doing nothing guarantees failure.

FACT: Socialist security and medicare taxes always increase in order to pay for them. They do not go down. This plan will be the same way and will only continue to add to the peoples burden.

Well, this is just a repeat of the factoid above.

FACT: Yes, we already pay for it now, but what happens when we are paying for two, three or even four times as many people? The costs go up.

Ahh, a dim light is shining. You seem to understand that we are paying for the uninsured now, but then fuzzy math sets in and you seem to think by getting these costs out of emergency rooms and prevention of future costs through timely care that somehow creates more people. I don’t know where that confusion comes from, except perhaps some disinformation campaign.


Posted by: gergle at August 11, 2009 9:44 AM
Comment #286060

racist rants? where in my entry do you find a racist rant?

kctim - there was no racist rant in my entry. you are wrong. your policy and your thought process is wrong too. shameful.

Posted by: bluebuss at August 11, 2009 4:04 PM
Comment #286062

gergle - you are right about the dim light. of course i would use it to describe the other side rather than an enlightening.

Posted by: bluebuss at August 11, 2009 4:06 PM
Comment #286132

gergle
I also do not believe polling is always honest and I know they can be fixed to show support for one’s position. I usually don’t pay them much attention, but when the left started praising the poll saying it showed 70% wanted govt controlled healthcare, I read up on the poll.

A main thing the left is ignoring is the fact that very few people are against reform, in fact, they are calling for it. What they are against is this particular plan.

I fully realize that I am paying for the non-insured now. Understand? I am aware of it and I am fully aware that govt policy is why I am paying for it.
And again, nobody is saying not to fix it. The opposition is with govt involvement.

“FACT: Such a plan limits a persons right to choose the plan they feel is best for them.

Sorry, this is patently false”

Can you explain how it is false? Most people are on a strict budget, especially now. Under this plan, I am forced to pay for it, I have no choice about that. If I want a good plan of my choice, I must also pay for that.
I am limited in my choices because I am forced to pay for the govts plan.
Now, if you tell me I really do have an option and can choose to only pay for the one of my choice, then I am wrong and you are correct.
And please don’t expect me to believe that punishing success will be enough to pay for it all. Whether within one, two or ten years, the American people will be paying for this plan.

It does add debt to the short term, there is no “could add” about it.
And again, nobody is saying we should do nothing.

Yes, it was a repeat, sorry about that. I was thinking how the healthcare plan would cause taxes to massively raise like SS and how putting the HC plan into the hands of those who can’t even run SS is a bad idea.

Fuzzy math? Are you saying that the only people who will be on this govt plan are those who are currently uninsured? If you are, then the left is running a huge disinformation campaign. I know quite a few people who currently have insurance of their choice who can’t wait to get on the govt dole so they don’t have to pay for insurance anymore. One couple is already looking at new vehicles.
So, am I wrong for saying that the amount of people on the govt plan will drastically increase and more money will be needed to provide them their freebies, or are they wrong is saying they can join the govt plan and not have to pay for healthcare anymore?

Posted by: kctim at August 12, 2009 9:08 AM
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