Democrats & Liberals Archives

Republicans Should Hide Their Heads In Shame

Are You Republicans Kidding Me? You don’t want to spend $15,000,000,000 to save 3,000,000 jobs. Have you did the math? Can you subtract 6 zeros from 9 zeros and divide by 3. Are you that stupid or are you just playing dumb because you want to break the unions?

Tell the truth now... I know that you are smart... So, you just want to stab 3 million people in the back so that you can grind your political axe against unions.

Three million jobs, each of which pay at least $10,000 per year in federal income tax. Can you do that math? Can you add 4 zeros to 6 zeros and write a 3 in front of it. Losing 3 million jobs will cost us at least $30 billion dollars in lost federal tax revenue in just one year, then subtract the unemployment, then subtract the lost state revenue, then subtract the lost city revenue, then subtract the lost sale tax revenue, then subtract at least another $24 billion in lost Social Security payroll tax revenue... The lost revenue will almost certainly add up to $100 billion in the first year, but you are too fiscally responsible to spend $15 billion (in loans) to save it.

Since I know that you will continue to play dumb, I will do the math for you. Fifteen billion divided by3 million is only $5000 per job. I know some smart Republican will point out that the total bill will be double that. You are correct. It will be $10,000 per job but the lost revenues in just 1 year will be triple that - and that does not count the additional foreclosures that will result in having to give the fat cat Wall Street Republican constituents hundreds of billions of additional no strings attached bailouts over and above the $700 billion already committed... These figures are all extremely conservative because they only count lost jobs, but pensions will be lost as well, the tax payers will have to assume liability for paying part of the pensions, the other "lost" part of the pensions will result in additional lost revenues, additional foreclosures, additional declines in home values, additional declines in the stock market, additional failed pension plans, additional bailouts for Wall Street... And it was only a loan - not a bail out.

Forget the fact that foreign auto makers have an unfair competitive advantage because of America's health care system. See my article: Market Principals and Healthcare.

See:

Senate Republicans such as Corker, Richard Shelby of Alabama, Mitch McConnell of Kentucky and Jim Demint of South Carolina represent states where Asian and European automakers operate nonunion factories.

Of course, these Republican scumbags conveniently forget to tell you that they gave $250,000 dollars per job to non union Mercedes Benz to build a factory in Alabama - that is just one example of many...

I hate to sing the praises of George Bush - You know how I love him - unconditionally - it is the only way - but he seems to have this one right...

Posted by Ray Guest at December 14, 2008 12:56 PM
Comments
Comment #271999

They shouldn’t be bailed out unless the workers, management and unions all concede to benefit, pay, and pension cuts across the board, and have a plan to get their companies running and making money again.

The government should also look back to the financial bailout and impose cuts across the board for pay and benefits of all the employees of the banks and financial houses that were saved.

Posted by: Jon at December 14, 2008 2:23 PM
Comment #272001

Jon,

And every one connected to the banking industry that receives benefits from the Wall Street bailout should also take an across the board pay cut and lose all benefits and bonuses. Every last swinging d*ck…

Posted by: Marysdude at December 14, 2008 2:31 PM
Comment #272007

When are the bailouts going to end? Who is next in line for a bailout? I agree with Jon all who will benefit from these bailouts should concede to cuts from the CEO’s on down. That should be mandated to all who ask for a bailout.

Posted by: KAP at December 14, 2008 2:57 PM
Comment #272008

Jon,

There’s less to cut than you think. A factory employee makes about $20 an hour. If you cut healthcare or retiree pensions, there will be costs associated with that as well. It’s a hundred times more expensive to treat someone who walks into the emergency room with no plan than with one…

What I don’t get about Republicans who are against the bailout is… what’s the alternative? 3 million people out of work? Wouldn’t we need to build some sort of work program or even have those ex-workers go on the dole? Wouldn’t that be about a million times more socialistic than bailing them out? As this post points out - wouldn’t it be criminally fiscally irresponsible not to bail out these companies? Not saying cuts and changes don’t need to be made, but it seems a lot more expensive to not bail them out.

Something we certainly should return to is taxing executive pay above a certain amount. These sorts of taxes were in place before executive pay skyrocketed beyond reason.

Posted by: Max at December 14, 2008 3:02 PM
Comment #272010

What is the matter with chapter 11 reorganization? Jobs will be lost no matter what.
It is just a matter of how many.

Posted by: KAP at December 14, 2008 3:23 PM
Comment #272015

Ray,

You do a lot of ranting and name calling for someone who has no clue what money is, where it comes from, or where it gets it’s value. Right now the government has about $-10,000,000,000,000. That’s right: negative ten trillion.
If you want to hand out nonexistent money to failed business which will in all likelihood will keep on failing, just keep in mind that it’s only a pretend quick fix and that your doing it at the expense of the rest of the economy.

Posted by: TheTraveler at December 14, 2008 3:50 PM
Comment #272020

what’s the alternative? 3 million people out of work?

Yes. I want these these companies to go out of business and their employees out of work.

You know what else I want? I want the Democrats to give these billions (the whole $700b) not to the corporations and banks, but to the unemployed of this country so they can get more education and stay afloat while they find new jobs and open new businesses. And while we’re at it, how about helping people out with their home loans?

But the Democrats never did support the little guy. Investing in the people is the last thing they would ever consider. Corporate welfare is more their line. They like it best when the money just happens to find its way (via the form of usury known as “dues”) into the pockets of union fatcats and eventually into party coffers.

The Republicans, as usual, have no plan whatsoever. At least they are trying to block this union giveaway, but given their current uselessness, I hold out little hope.

Posted by: One-Eyed Jack at December 14, 2008 4:42 PM
Comment #272021

But the Democrats never did support the little guy. Investing in the people is the last thing they would ever consider. Corporate welfare is more their line.

The democrats ruined capitalism by being too socialistic. Now that times have changed, they are ruining socialism by being too capitalistic.
How ironic.

Posted by: WellWellWell at December 14, 2008 4:53 PM
Comment #272024

Thanks all for your comments.

Kap,

You wrote: “What is the matter with chapter 11 reorganization? Jobs will be lost no matter what.
It is just a matter of how many.”

First, no one will buy a car from a company that will not be there to honor the warranty.

Second, the pensions will be dumped on the tax payers and the banks will loot the pension funds which the workers have earned and the company has set aside to pay the the pensions. The net effect will be to cost tax payers even more than a bail out would (this is a loan - not a bailout, and the jobs will be gone besides.

These companies are viable. It was the banking collapse that took the down. As of the last concession contract UAW workers work for less than Foreign transplant workers. The problem is a health care system that benefits start up companies with young workers. See my health care article linked to above.

Consider:

GM makes more car models that get over 30 mpg than any other car company in the world, but our news media labels Toyota as the “green” company.

GM put their hi bred technology in buses where it saved far more fuel than all Priuses on the road, but Toyota gets the credit for being “green.”

GM and Ford have matched and beaten Japanese quality for over a decade. They were close before that.

Japan, China, and (Mexico as regards industrial jobs) still do not practice fair trade with us. Japanese subsidise and protect their industry. The Chinese do not allow their currency to float at market value, provide virtual slave labor, and do not enforce environmental standards. Mexico suppresses workers rights and allows pollution.

Transplant auto makers have received hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollar subsidies per job to build plants here, taxpayer dollars that came largely from rust belt American auto producing states in the mid west like Michigan that carried this country on their back for decades - thanks for being willing to help us when we are down…

Posted by: Ray Guest at December 14, 2008 5:51 PM
Comment #272026

Ray
Consider the big three all going under and nobody gets nothing but unemployment compensation

Posted by: KAP at December 14, 2008 5:54 PM
Comment #272027

Excess federal income taxes collected in Michigan since at least the early 1900s through the 1980s were transferred directly to Tennessee, Kentucky, and Alabama. They broke our back, now they want to stab us in it.

Posted by: Ray Guest at December 14, 2008 6:05 PM
Comment #272029

Ray,

Bankruptcy does not send 3,000,000 job down the toilet. It allows for the real value of labor, parts, pensions, etc to be reflected in the real world so the cars these manufacturers make can become really competitive with their (ostensibly) foreign rivals.

There will be job losses. Some contracts will change dramatically and some car lines, and perhaps one major corporation, (most likely Chrysler) will become a bad memory. Even so the vast majority of those three million will stay employed.

Resisting reality does not make reality go away. So long as the government is throwing our money at the problem we’re only resisting reality.

Posted by: Lee Jamison at December 14, 2008 7:33 PM
Comment #272036

KAP, Lee Jamison-
The problem, as I understand it, is that Chapter 11 bankruptcy requires some lines of credit for the businesses involved.

There’s been some minor difficulties in that area as of late. Without it, you have Chapter 7, which essentially means that they’re gone forever. As far as I can tell, Republicans have shown a poor track record as of yet with their economic decisions. You folks underestimate the amount of oversight you need and misjudge the quality and strength of intervention necessary.

I think the Republicans really haven’t let the reality of the situation sink in. Government needs to intervene, but do so with precises, strong, and subtle use of government force.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at December 14, 2008 9:04 PM
Comment #272038

S.D.
When three CEO’s fly into D.C. on three seperate fancy corporate jets to ask for money, I’d be skeptical to. Didn’t that strike you Democrats as being somewhat dumb? They are asking for bailouts, yet they waste corporate money to fly intom D.C on corporate jets.

Posted by: KAP at December 14, 2008 9:25 PM
Comment #272044

KAP, you’re a little late on the uptake with the jets. That pretty much pissed everyone off, across the board, and many were most vocal about it. Which is why, we are to understand that if the jets haven’t been sold off, they are “parked” for a long time, and is also why, the last trip was made by car !!!!!

Posted by: janedoe at December 14, 2008 11:08 PM
Comment #272045

Consider the big three all going under and nobody gets nothing but unemployment compensation.

The problem is that the retiree benefits and healthcare would have to be paid for as well. When you add this all up, it’s more than the bailout. Not to mention that I believe America needs the ability to manufacture - it’s critical to our defense, energy independence, and economic health for diversification reasons. Not to mention there’s a good chance of their being a domino effect, where the big 3 carry the rest of this country into a 30’s style depression. It’s not just Democrats saying this. Cheney is saying it too…

Posted by: Max at December 14, 2008 11:35 PM
Comment #272046

It’s probably not a good time to let the big three go bankrupt. we can wait a bit longer.

I read an article that said that the higher labor costs amount to about $800/car total including pension costs etc.

The problem is that the big three have to sell the cars for $2000 less than the non union built cars because of poorer quality.

If there is shame it should be on the management of these companies. If I were a union worker I would want to know why our plants produce inferior cars.

Posted by: Craig Holmes at December 15, 2008 12:35 AM
Comment #272049

Craig,

I’m sure the big three has put out par quality cars for ten or so years, some even over par. The problem is not quality, but rather perception. America, once burnt, just don’t trust them boogers to keep it up. Most Americans believe that if Detroit ever gets on top again they’ll start making bad cars again.

Perception rules the day…

Posted by: Marysdude at December 15, 2008 6:54 AM
Comment #272050

At least 6 of the Rep senators that voted against the short term aid package will be joining the ranks of the unemployed here shortly. They blame the UAW and other organizations that stick up for working people for their demise. They voted against the best interest of the nation because they are mean-spirted, anti-worker,selfish ,un-American and vindictive SOBs.Lets get to work and get rid of the rest of the Rep scum thats managed to trash the country for 8 years.
Now the long night is over and we have a real president in office again. Some long overdue healthcare reform should work wonders for American businesses and workers ,including the Big 3. Its also time to take the handcuffs off unions in the historically treason prone regions of the country by dumping the fascist Taft-Hartly Amendments. Want wage parity? No problem.

Posted by: bills at December 15, 2008 7:39 AM
Comment #272052

Craig, like I said We make the best Trucks and Great touring cars and good small cars, check out this Link, http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS80686+13-Jan-2008+PRN20080113

Posted by: Rodney Brown at December 15, 2008 9:07 AM
Comment #272053

janedoe said “the last trip was made by car !!!!!”

Posted by: janedoe at December 14, 2008 11:08 PM
” Yep they kind of looked like big shots the first time, the second time they brought there best cars that they should have brought the first Time DALT! Check it out! http://www.wtop.com/?nid=111&sid=1532129

Posted by: Rodney Brown at December 15, 2008 9:21 AM
Comment #272059

Stephen writes one of the most bizarrely funny lines in recent memory-

Government needs to intervene, but do so with precises, strong, and subtle use of government force.
Government will be precise, strong, and subtle? :|

Government should also clean up Fallujah, but do it quietly and be home in time for supper.

Posted by: Lee Jamison at December 15, 2008 10:28 AM
Comment #272066

Marysdude:

I don’t disagree with you that the market discounts American cars because of a history of poor quality.

The article I read really helped me understand why the big three are loosing market share and probably will continue.

Wow, $800/car in additional labor costs, and having to sell each car on average for $2000/car less because of poor quality, (perception or actual). That is nearly $3,000/car less profit.

In an admitedly simplistic whay of looking at the issue, most of the problem is poor management.

It looks like the big three are going to continue their decades long decline. Now is not a good time to have them go under. Let them limp along and go under at a later time, assuming Management doesn’t fix the issue.

Posted by: Craig Holmes at December 15, 2008 12:35 PM
Comment #272076

That’s my opinion…salvage what we can, in order to keep things going, even temporarily, then let them eat themselves if that be the case. But right now, with all the other market mumbo-jumbo going on, we need those jobs.

Posted by: Marysdude at December 15, 2008 2:20 PM
Comment #272080

Marysdude:

We do need to take a long look at this big three issue. Basic question is “Why do non union shops build better cars for a better price than UAW shops.”

It is obviously not the workers themselves as US non union workers seem to do just fine. It must be UAW and Corporate management not “figuring it out”.

Posted by: Craig Holmes at December 15, 2008 3:11 PM
Comment #272087

Stephen wrote; “Government needs to intervene, but do so with precises, strong, and subtle use of government force.”

And just where have we seen this great government you describe anywhere in the past? Examples please!

Craig writes; “Now is not a good time to have them go under. Let them limp along and go under at a later time, assuming Management doesn’t fix the issue.”

Craig, I sure am glad you’re not managing one of my companies. Limping along on their own resources is one thing, limping along on untold billions of taxpayer dollars is simply ignorant.

I have read all the gloom and doom scenarios, none of which are substantiated, with many inflated job loss calculations being used. How about a reasonable scenario? GM and Chrysler file for bankruptcy protection, under the guidance of the federal bankruptcy court all the concerned parties make concessions and a new business plan, the companies emerge from bankruptcy with fresh private financing, some new owners, lean and mean and able to compete with any foreign producer, jobs are stabilized, jobs increase, government owns no part of this private enterprise, the taxpayers lost nothing.

Posted by: Jim M at December 15, 2008 5:03 PM
Comment #272097

Craig, you don’t understand the assembly line process of making cars. Union workers do their jobs just as well as non-union workers, but their jobs consist of screwing bolts or welding joints, or putting parts together all day. The union workers DO NOT design the cars, or their quality standards, or the market share strategies, or the consumer appeal strategies. That is management responsible for those aspects of building cars. And that means it is NOT UAW workers largely at fault, but management of the Big 3.

I worked for Ford, as a union worker, and I was offered a job in management as a Foreman trainee which I turned down. The workers are, for the most part, not responsible for the malaise of the Big 3. Though in the past, their bargaining for ridiculous compensation played a part. They aren’t bargaining for ridiculous compensation today, and have made major concessions over the last several years, according to media reports of late.

Posted by: David R. Remer at December 15, 2008 6:46 PM
Comment #272105

>We do need to take a long look at this big three issue. Basic question is “Why do non union shops build better cars for a better price than UAW shops.”
Posted by: Craig Holmes at December 15, 2008 03:11 PM

Craig,

I reiterate, American cars are now superior to foreign cars. The problem is perception…Americans doubt that our cars are superior because they’ve been burnt, and others doubt Detroit will continue to build them better because the big three have not proven to be reliable. THE UNIONS DON”T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH EITHER…

Posted by: Marysdude at December 15, 2008 7:40 PM
Comment #272108

Craig
Volkswagon is nearly a 100% union shop and they are doing just fine,thank you. The idea that wprkers that get paid more and have better benefits some how do poorer quality or less work is absurd. You have been swallowing rightist propaganda for too long.

Posted by: bills at December 15, 2008 9:52 PM
Comment #272110

Craig, try to buy a toyota or honda for invoice LOL they always get MSRP for them I know, Look at the 2009 chevy malibu hybrid, it’s rated better than a toyota camry hybrid and a few thousand less too ! http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/2009-Chevrolet-Malibu-Hybrid/

Posted by: Rodney Brown at December 15, 2008 9:59 PM
Comment #272111

Thanks all for your comments.

Lee Jamison,

You wrote:”Bankruptcy does not send 3,000,000 job down the toilet. It allows for the real value of labor, parts, pensions, etc to be reflected in the real world so the cars these manufacturers make can become really competitive with their (ostensibly) foreign rivals.”

For want of time to make a more articulate response… Balogna, which part of: the union workers already work for less money than the non-union scabs, as of the last concession contract - don’t you understand.

You also wrote: “Resisting reality does not make reality go away. So long as the government is throwing our money at the problem we’re only resisting reality.”

Agreed. My way of saying that is: Reality has the property of being real. The reality is that GM and Ford have done what is needed to become competitive with the non-union foreign transplant scab companies. And. The domestic companies have more North American content, and do, and have done, orders of magnitude more to support our country. Trash talking the American companies and the unions has become an endemic addiction in this country.

That is OK. “What goes around, comes around” and “be careful what you pray for.” You want to break the union, you may well succeed. Countless millions of people in this country, (including especially the non-union scabs in foreign transplant factories), are well paid, and well treated, because their companies do not want a union… Go ahead break us, bury us, stomp us into the ground, stab us in the back… Good luck when we are not on the front lines fighting to set a standard of decent pay and treatment for you.

Posted by: Ray Guest at December 15, 2008 10:09 PM
Comment #272112

>How about a reasonable scenario? GM and Chrysler file for bankruptcy protection, under the guidance of the federal bankruptcy court all the concerned parties make concessions and a new business plan, the companies emerge from bankruptcy with fresh private financing, some new owners, lean and mean and able to compete with any foreign producer, jobs are stabilized, jobs increase, government owns no part of this private enterprise, the taxpayers lost nothing.
Posted by: Jim M at December 15, 2008 05:03 PM

Jim M,

About a thousand years ago some wise person told me that to make the most convincing case, I should argue the opposition argument first, then arrange my argument around that. It was effective. I’m an old man now and my mind is not quite as agile…perhaps if you would sit down and draw up reasons why your idea won’t work…then arrange your argument around that finding??? But, as it is, I find what you say to be somewhat green and not well thought out.

Posted by: Marysdude at December 15, 2008 10:11 PM
Comment #272115

Another aspect of this problem is the dealer network. GM has far too many dealers, but they cannot get rid of them, the dealers have contracts and also have a lot more political clout than the companies. Maintaining its bloated dealer network costs GM an extra $1200 per car. That is equal to the cost of health care. Bankruptcy is not the solution to this because of the secondary effects it will have. But this a major challenge for GM, Ford, and Chrysler. There is a car dealer in practically every little town in this country. The owner is usually the richest person in town, and usually they employ the most people, with the best jobs… Every Congressman, every Senator, every Governor, every state representative, and most mayors have to kowtow to the dealer association.

Posted by: Ray Guest at December 15, 2008 10:30 PM
Comment #272118

Marysdude:

That is good news. What is the sourse?

Posted by: Craig Holmes at December 16, 2008 1:14 AM
Comment #272120

One big trouble with bankruptcy is companies can get out of their pension obligations under current law. With the big3 that would mean many thousands is pensioners forced into destitution. There is the federal pension garentee corp that would pay pennies on the dollar. It is funded by a levy on other pension funds,similar to the FDIC. It is under stress,if it runs out of funds its us good old tax payers that will pick up the tab like the S&L bailout. How is that a good idea?

Posted by: bills at December 16, 2008 5:32 AM
Comment #272123

Ray -

Save jobs? Who are you kidding? Chrysler and GM lose more than $15 billion every year… even if they do get the money, it’ll just delay the inevitable for another year.

If we want to avoid a prolonged recession, we need to let entrepreneurs with successful business models get loans and hire workers. These bailouts are double whammy: they take loans off the market (the government has to borrow the money from investors) and they keep good, well-trained workers in failed companies.

Bailouts are not the cure, they’re the disease.

And for the record, I put the blame for Detroit’s failure equally on the management and the unions.

Posted by: Chops at December 16, 2008 9:46 AM
Comment #272127

Craig, my apology. My last comment to you responded to only one of your comments, without reading your others for greater context. Upon reading your other comments, it appears clear we agree the quality issue is on management, not the union workers. That old canard that management can’t afford quality due to union compensation was applied as recently as 3 months ago, but, it still does not compute.

People will pay for quality. That is why people buy Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans. That dog don’t hunt, that management can’t compete on quality because of union compensation.

I owned Volvo’s for years because of quality. Then of course, Volvo went from being the everyone’s car to tacking on a luxury car price for a luxury market share, and guess what? Their quality went down, safety stayed high, and market share shrank. Dumb from my perspective as a once Volvo loyalist and megaphone.

I owned a 1981 Ford F100 which ran great and was easy to repair in my backyard until just last Fall, when two pistons shattered after nearly 300,000 miles on the vehicle and 180,000 miles on the rebuilt engine. That was quality geared to the working consumer. And that made Ford the number 1 truck dealer in the U.S. for decades.

I wouldn’t buy a Ford Pickup truck today, since its maintenance and repair costs have shot through the roof. This whole international auto industry, all players, have one common business plan today, and that is to reap the profits on the repair and maintenance end, ergo, providing incentive to compete with each other for the least quality cost while vying for still for the best quality industry standard. It has been a race to the bottom on quality, including foreign manufacturers becoming players except a few luxury import makers.

Back in the 1960’s and 1970’s there was a term for this race to the bottom on quality in the industrialized world. It was: “Planned Obsolescence”.

One day, perhaps, a manufacturer will produce a commuter vehicle that is entirely serviceable by any owner capable of reading a pictured repair manual, and they will make their back end returns on parts, not the labor to repair them, which they will discount, thus giving them incredible market share over all other commuter vehicle manufacturers.

Of course that day depends entirely on whether oligopoly practices are outlawed or not. As long as oligopolies can operate within the law, they will buy out any competitor or lobby against such a competitor on other legal technical grounds, to prevent such competition.

There is a market for the two seater commuter, barebones, built around an efficient 4 cycle two or three cylinder motorcycle engine hybrid electric vehicle. The perfect vehicle for students, suburban shopper’s second vehicles, the low wage workers whose employment depends upon reliable cost effective transportation, and many public and private sector fleets, (think postal carrier routes). That potential market has been there for decades. Why hasn’t it been developed in the U.S., because of oligopoly mechanisms that permit domestic and foreign manufacturers to mutually benefit through monopolistic practices of unwritten agreements to not enter that market. The niche market is too small to support all manufacturers from profitably entering it, therefore, they all agree none will enter it, to avoid the costs of having to compete for this smaller market share at rock bottom returns on investment and profits.

This is an area in which government has a regulatory role in protecting start-ups who would enter that market niche from predatory practices by the oligopoly players. Couldn’t and wouldn’t happen under Republicans, but, maybe, just maybe, it could become an issue for the Obama administration and many Democrats whose constituents will increasingly be PO’d over their declining real wage purchasing power going forward from here.

Posted by: David R. Remer at December 16, 2008 10:54 AM
Comment #272128

“And for the record, I put the blame for Detroit’s failure equally on the management and the unions” Management? no such thing these day’s they seem to have been either paid off or cut off. :(

Posted by: Rodney Brown at December 16, 2008 11:00 AM
Comment #272137

Rodney, excellent point!

Posted by: David R. Remer at December 16, 2008 11:58 AM
Comment #272143

I had The Privilege of being in management for a huge industry for about 15 years After My working day’s were cut short by two back surgeries I had a degree in optics Also, I did both when the conditions were best suited for one or the other, we “me and the workers” turned a few companies around from the brink, My perspective was that it was the top 70 percent of The time That failed at the end.

Posted by: Rodney Brown at December 16, 2008 1:18 PM
Comment #272146

bills - you understand. all contracts (warranties, pensions) are voided under bankruptcy. who will buy a car w/o a warranty? who will protect retirees?

there are no better cars in the world than american cars. period. all americans should drive and support other americans. period. the gm’s i have bought were all running perfectly well when i have bought a new one (were talking 10 years or longer each car). foreign is not better its just funding another country or a foreign company. don’t buy into advertising - we have the best product.

i bet the same people who are saying foreign is better are the same ones who are against foreigners in america. how can you live w/your hypocritical lives?

this is a loan, not a bailout. when our country needed gm and ford - they didn’t ask for stipulations, they went into action, and helped us win the world wars. that was loyalty to a nation, our nation. where is the loyalty? what have you done for your country today? what are you doing to help your country? if each person stopped buying foreign, you may be shocked how quickly we could turn it around.

but, most you will go to walmart and buy from china, and drive your jap car. happy freakin’ holidays, if americans do not change it will be the last “normal” one we ever have.

ps - watch for december jobless claims. we are all screwed.

Posted by: bluebuss at December 16, 2008 1:51 PM
Comment #272152

marysdude wrote of my suggestion; “I should argue the opposition argument first, then arrange my argument around that.”

Well marysdude, why don’t you follow your own advice? My suggestion of taking a rosy scenario (vs) a gloom and doom scenario has just as much merit with just as little evidence.

Posted by: Jim M at December 16, 2008 3:01 PM
Comment #272155

David:

Thank you. I read some of Demings works sometime ago. Basically quality starts at the very very top of an organization. The very top brass has to insist on quality standards.

I worked with Unions for years as a school board member. I actually enjoyed the process. We agreed, disagreed, fought, got mad at each other, and shook hands. Over all I didn’t see much wrong with the process.

Count me nuetral on Unions. Like companies it comes down to leadership. I enjoy unions with good leadership, but sometimes I have witnessed the corporation having more concern for the worker and union bosses more out for themselves. For my own taste it comes down to quality of leadership issues.

I do think a case can be made that right now UAW are faced with an issue of non union shops putting out some pretty nice products. I think for the future of Unions in this country UAW needs to work with management to put out better products than the competition.

I drive a Jeep Cheroke Larado. (2004) I love it. I am hoping to do at least as well on the mileage front as you did with your Ford. It is the last year with the 4.0 straight six. I really like that engine. We travel between my home in Spokane, WA and NE Oregon. It is sooo good in the snow.

Posted by: Craig Holmes at December 16, 2008 5:05 PM
Comment #272157

Craig, To the Point about your 4.0 Litre six Keep it! I know a person here with a 97 jeep wrangler it has 205,000 miles on it and never opened up.

Posted by: Rodney Brown at December 16, 2008 5:35 PM
Comment #272158

Rodney:

That is why I bought it. 2004 was the last year for that engine.

I understand that I should buy a small car and all. I looked at myself in a picture with others around me. I’m a big guy! 6’2”. It is so nice to have a car that I fit well into.

I am planning for 300,000 miles.

Also, the tranny is spose to be fantastic.

Posted by: Craig Holmes at December 16, 2008 5:38 PM
Comment #272159

I know that I haven’t posted for a while, but here is my take on this bail out. While I didn’t agree with the first one, I semi-understood why it was done. This one is a little more believable, but what I am finding most ironic is the fact that the republicans in congress wanted to add the stipulation of a pay cut by the auto industry.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I didn’t see any such stipulations on the Wall Street bail out. As a matter of fact didn’t I see it on the news recently where one of the companies that was bailed out wanted to give the management of that company raises. Forgive me if I don’t see where there should be stipulations put on Wall Street, in fact those CEO’s should also been told to give up some of their huge incomes.

As a matter of fact if it wasn’t for the gross incompetance of those on Wall Street that we are in the position we are in. I have said it before and seen it here many times that if we performed at our jobs the way these CEO’s do we would be on our butts in the street looking for new jobs, let alone with huge settlement packages handed over and some other incompetant fool brought in in their place, with an even bigger salary.

My husband and I have always supported the American auto industry. We currently have a 91 Chevy Cheyanne and I currently have a 96 Caddy. Those vehicles were made when GM made quality cars. It is really hard to resist buying from Toyota, Honda, Hundai, etc. when you can buy those vehicles for less than American cars of the same size and they retain their value for longer than American cars. I see this bail out (loan)hopefully helping to get them back on track and they can start producing better quality vehicles. Until then we along with most others whose credit has taken a hit will hold on to our older cars and hope for the best.

By the way my husbands truck has almost 200,000 on the body and over 100,000 on the engine and are now looking for a new body for the engine. LOL, and my car has over 160,000 miles on it and still going strong.

Posted by: Sherri at December 16, 2008 5:39 PM
Comment #272160

“Defeat in Iraq may now be a lost cause.”

“Power not only corrupts, it can educate. It can turn an attractive young politician given to empty slogans (Hope! Change! Audacity!) into a responsible leader wary of rash action.”

Off subject but one that hasn’t been discussed for quite awhile. The following link is, for the most part, rather complimentary to Mr. Obama.

Link; http://townhall.com/columnists/PaulGreenberg/2008/12/16/a_changed_man?page=1

Posted by: Jim M at December 16, 2008 5:40 PM
Comment #272161

Craig, yes, the straight in line 6 was what my Ford F100 had. I would rebuild the engine but the body and interior look like they belong in a rural Mexican village to the local mayor.

The UAW is now in a fight to keep their jobs at all. But, their leadership has an obligation to insure that the sacrifices members make do not concede every and all advantages over non-union shops. Else there would be no purpose to the Union and collective bargaining in Michigan would be rendered as useless as it is in Alabama. That said, they need to concede everything they can to insure their employers continue to be able to employ.

On the other foot, the shareholders and executive management have to understand that this is NOT their opportunity to neuter and declaw the UAW. That too would be suicide for shareholders and put the execs out on the job hunting market with failure on their Resume as their last held position. I think both sides now realize their delicate condition and are very likely now, willing and able to work together for their mutual benefit and short term goal of keeping their corporations alive.

I currently drive a 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee which still looks and drives like new, except for a faulty heater attributed to a really LOUSY and cheap plastic door air direction design. Chrysler. I may never buy another one in this lifetime. A $10 part requires emptying the AC, removal of the entire dash assembly and costs $1400 to replace. Here is the kicker, these fail every 5 years or so. Oh, yeah, and the electric windows fail every 3 to 4 years. Fortunately, these are a piece of cake for the owner to repair at a parts cost of less than $100 per window. I have repaired both front windows this year, both failed within months of each other. That takes planning. Many other GC owners complain of the same exact problem.

Posted by: David R. Remer at December 16, 2008 5:52 PM
Comment #272162

Sherri, you lucked out on your Caddie, or, your memory fails as to just how much you have put into maintaining it. Our 86 DeVille has been a money pit with 3 air conditioners, window failures at $500 per repair, and an engine replacement at 114,000 miles due to broken pistons - And yes, oil and filter were changed religiously. A host of other repairs were also required over the years to the front end, both sides. Its a piece of junk now with only 155,000 miles on it. Can’t wait for our hybrid to replace its V8 20 mpg. I also will never by a front transverse mounted transmission again either. A nightmare to work on.

Good observations btw, on wall st. vs. auto bailouts. Funny how that happens, isn’t it? NOT!

Posted by: David R. Remer at December 16, 2008 6:01 PM
Comment #272165

Who’s Losing the U.S. Car Business?

Following are excerpts from Mr. Kudlow that I find fascinating. Makes one wonder doesn’t it?

“You have to ask this question: If the Detroit carmakers are in dire straits, going broke in two weeks, right now in late 2008, how can the UAW wait until 2011 to make its concessions? The financial problem is today, not two years from today. The threat of liquidation, with perhaps a few million autoworker, supplier, and car-dealer jobs lost, is today’s threat, not a 2011 threat. So what’s the UAW waiting for?”

“So while Sen. Corker was negotiating in good faith (even with the support of Democratic big-wig Chris Dodd), Gettelfinger doomed the deal, knowing full well that the Democratic Senate conference would never walk away from the UAW.”

“If Sen. Corker’s plan had prevailed, with UAW support, many believe it would have had 90 votes in the Senate. GM could have gone forward with a clean-as-a-whistle balance sheet under a three-part restructuring plan that included a $60 billion bond-refinancing cram-down, a renegotiation of the $30 billion VEBA health-care trust, and a pay-restructuring plan that would put Detroit compensation levels in line with those of foreign transplants Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and BMW.”

Full Story; http://townhall.com/columnists/LawrenceKudlow/2008/12/15/whos_losing_the_us_car_business?page=1

Posted by: Jim M at December 16, 2008 6:14 PM
Comment #272167

David:

When I sat across the table from a union president and his staff, I never took offense. They had received union dues for a specific purpose. Their job was to negotiate what their membership had told them to negotiate, even if they disagreed with their members. Actually if they did not they should have been fired by their members.

I understand that UAW workers have paid money to have the UAW leadership work for them at this time. They also need to educate their members of the risks to certain positions. (job loss etc).

I grew up in a union home. In the end of the day I have medial care and my parents are retired comfortably thanks to unions. It would be a great plus to our country if the UAW could work with management to pull this thing out.

Posted by: Craig Holmes at December 16, 2008 6:28 PM
Comment #272193

Here’s an interesting opinion piece from today’s NY Times that highlights the increasing similarities between the US and China. Good or Bad…you decide.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/17/opinion/17friedman.html?th&emc=th

Posted by: Jim M at December 17, 2008 11:20 AM
Comment #272210

I see GMAC Could Bring GM down. also the plant making to motors for the new chevy volt has been suspended and i also see that the workers at that plant will make $14 a hour is that for real wow they have taken a bath.

Posted by: Rodney Brown at December 17, 2008 1:10 PM
Comment #272220

Craig, you should have got a letter from chrysler that was covered under warranty ~~ Body, Interior & Misc.: VISIBILITY:DEFROSTER/DEFOGGER SYSTEM:WINDSHIELD:CONTROLS/WIRING
Service Bulletin Number: 2400104
NHTSA Number: 10005603
Model Years Affected: 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004
Date of Bulletin: 03/2004
Bulletin Summary: NEW HVAC SUB-ASSEMBLY REPLACES BLEND OR RECIRC DOOR COMPONENTS.

Posted by: Rodney Brown at December 17, 2008 3:09 PM
Comment #272222

The dealer will honer it, take it in .

Posted by: Rodney Brown at December 17, 2008 3:20 PM
Comment #272225

Rodney:

I have no problems but should still take it in?

Posted by: Craig Holmes at December 17, 2008 4:10 PM
Comment #272231

it’s a faulty part, I would have it done before it breaks and call a dealer to set an appointment for your convience and they will have the part ready when you come in and they might even supply a loaner car they did for our Honda, it should be a one day job maybe two.

Posted by: Rodney Brown at December 17, 2008 4:58 PM
Comment #272251

Craig,

You’d better hurry, before Chrysler goes under. And, be sure you stay and wait for them to do the work, because if they are in the middle if the fix, bankruptcy will freeze the car on the lot, and you’ll be walking to work.

Posted by: Marysdude at December 17, 2008 8:10 PM
Comment #272379

Marysdude:

They would continue to do business under bankruptcy.

Posted by: Craig Holmes at December 19, 2008 12:07 AM
Comment #272408

Craig,

If it remains in Chapter 11, but with Chrysler’s fouled up history, and the idiot CEO (who nearly drove Home Depot into the ground, before taking a 120m severance), in charge…Chapter 7 ain’t far down the road. Chapter 7 freezes all vehicles in every shop until settlement.

Posted by: Marysdude at December 19, 2008 1:11 PM
Comment #272449

Thanks all for your comments.

David Remer,

You wrote: “People will pay for quality. That is why people buy Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans. That dog don’t hunt, that management can’t compete on quality because of union compensation.” The quality of all cars foreign and domestic has consistently improved until Toyota and Mercedes stumbled recently. GM and Ford closed the quality gap a long time ago and matched the Japanese every since. The only quality gap that still exists is perceived quality in minds the minds of the American people, it is not real.

bluebuss,

Thanks for your comment.

You wrote: “this is a loan, not a bailout. when our country needed gm and ford - they didn’t ask for stipulations, they went into action, and helped us win the world wars. that was loyalty to a nation, our nation. where is the loyalty? what have you done for your country today? what are you doing to help your country? if each person stopped buying foreign, you may be shocked how quickly we could turn it around.”

In your comment, you talked about pensions. GM pays out about 7 billion dollars per year in pensions. If GM goes bankrupt, it will bankrupt the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) which taxpayers will have to bail out. GM retirees will probably lose about 3.5 billion dollars per year in income which will depress economic activity by that amount all over the nation. Do you have a lawn mowing service - chances are you mow the lawn of a GM retiree - good luck with that… ect. ect. Foreclosures… ect. ect. Party stores… Casinos… Prostitutes… Everybody loses. The economic effects will be felt everywhere. Then there is health care for hundreds of thousands of GM retirees… add that to the cost of national health care… or pay for it through non-paying emergency room visits… or pay for it through bankrupt hospitals and reduced doctors salaries. Then foreclose on the doctors 3 million dollar house, then bailout the bank that lent him the money… but what ever you do… don’t buy American…

Posted by: Ray Guest at December 19, 2008 7:21 PM
Comment #272451

Thanks all for your comments.

David Remer,

You wrote: “People will pay for quality. That is why people buy Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans. That dog don’t hunt, that management can’t compete on quality because of union compensation.” The quality of all cars foreign and domestic has consistently improved until Toyota and Mercedes stumbled recently. GM and Ford closed the quality gap a long time ago and matched the Japanese every since. The only quality gap that still exists is perceived quality in minds the minds of the American people, it is not real.

bluebuss,

Thanks for your comment.

You wrote: “this is a loan, not a bailout. when our country needed gm and ford - they didn’t ask for stipulations, they went into action, and helped us win the world wars. that was loyalty to a nation, our nation. where is the loyalty? what have you done for your country today? what are you doing to help your country? if each person stopped buying foreign, you may be shocked how quickly we could turn it around.”

In your comment, you talked about pensions. I have a relevant blog entry at: www.rayguest.com which should post soon.

Posted by: Ray Guest at December 19, 2008 8:28 PM
Comment #272473

The link in my last comment does not go to the correct place. Here it is again: Corrected Link

Posted by: Ray Guest at December 20, 2008 11:06 AM
Comment #272567

To go along with my earlier post, I found this interesting reading. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081221/ap_on_bi_ge/executive_bailouts. But yet no stipulations were put on the other bailout money.

Posted by: Sherri at December 21, 2008 4:40 PM
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