Democrats & Liberals Archives

What's an American Company?

The big Republican argument for reducing taxes on American companies is that this would allow them to grow and hire more workers. Sounds wonderful. But what is an American company?

Is Boeing an American company? It's located in the Chicago area and has big plants in a Seattle suburb. For a long time it has supplied good jobs. But these are dwindling because Boeing is outsourcing more and more. As today's L.A. Times tells us:

The aerospace company over the last few years had turned commercial aircraft manufacturing on its head by farming out much of the super-efficient 787. The Dreamliner's wings are built by Mitsubishi Corp. in Japan, its doors by Latecoere in France. Fuselage sections are manufactured by a U.S.-Italian team in South Carolina. Little but the plane's final assembly takes place in Everett, a suburb of Seattle -- long known as Jet City. Now, Boeing wants to outsource some of the union jobs still left here, hiring contractors to handle more warehousing, forklift operations, materials processing and hazardous waste disposal.

So the unionized workers have been on strike for 7 weeks and the strike may continue for several weeks more. Wouldn't you go on strike if your job was threatened? And these jobs definitely are - they are being outsourced to lower-paid workers in other countries.

What are we supposed to do? People like Tom Friedman say this situation is part of the great globilization trend that will bring prosperity to all. This is why we must invest in innovation and reduce the tax load on American companies. Maybe this will help American corporations, but helping companies that do outsourcing is already wrecking the livelihood of many workers in the U.S.

Boeing is a microcosm of our problem. It pays good wages to thousands of workers and sells jets and other aircraft all over the world. Its competitor is the European Auirbus. Boeing insists that outsourcing is necessary to compete.

Little by little, more and more Boeing jobs are sent overseas. At what point do we no longer consider Boeing to be an American company? At what point do we stop giving Boeing tax breaks to "help it compete?"

The argument is usually framed in terms of foreign trade and protectionism. This takes us off the track. The question must be: What should we do to achieve full employment in the U.S.?

Instead of tax breaks, companies that send jobs overseas should get tax increases. Tax breaks should go to companies who supply American jobs. These are the true American companies.

Posted by Paul Siegel at October 27, 2008 7:02 PM
Comments
Comment #268505

Paul couldn’t agree with you more. Boeing has full personhood rights as a result of a twisted version of the intent of the 14th amendment. Boeing has lobbyist in DC that allows the company more access to alter the laws and regulations to favor themselves to the detriment of the people of this country. To not pay taxes, even the partial business taxes the big multinationals do pay causes the rest of us to pay more. To give tax breaks to send jobs overseas is as pathetic as it is illogical. To think in this day and age that what is good for the global corporations is good for America is to deny reality.
Any company that offshores jobs should be subject to penalties and fines as any other criminal should be. They enjoy the protection of the American military amongst many other benefits yet some of us think they should not be required to pay taxes so that we all can enjoy the economic benefits to be gained by Boeing from offshoring jobs. But the fact is we as individuals do not gain from Boeing offshoring jobs unless we happen to own stock but then foreign investors enjoy the same advantages of owning Boeing stock without paying taxes in this Country. We as Americans pay in environmental issues and in lowered quality of life issues. Why should we favor Boeing or any other company that deserts this country.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 27, 2008 7:56 PM
Comment #268506

Paul Siegel advises; “Instead of tax breaks, companies that send jobs overseas should get tax increases. Tax breaks should go to companies who supply American jobs. These are the true American companies.”

Paul’s solution reminds me of Mayor Bloomberg in NYC addressing the decline of cigarette tax revenue being collected. His answer was also “increase taxes”. The mayor failed to understand why cigarette sales were falling and his solution was to employ more of the same action which caused the decline to begin with.

Paul writes; “So the unionized workers have been on strike for 7 weeks and the strike may continue for several weeks more. Wouldn’t you go on strike if your job was threatened? And these jobs definitely are - they are being outsourced to lower-paid workers in other countries.”

Union strikes of the past were employed for many reasons; to increase wages, increase benefits, improve the workplace, etc. but have strikes ever worked to keep jobs from flowing overseas?

Question for Paul; 1) If the strike is successful in keeping those jobs in the U.S., will Boeing remain competitive with Airbus? 2) If Boeing can’t compete with Airbus by keeping those jobs in the U.S. will it move its entire operation overseas? 3) If Boeing moves out of the U.S. will the strike be considered successful. 4) If Boeing paid no federal income tax, as proposed under the “FairTax”, could it compete successfully with AirBus and not only keep, but add to its workforce here in the U.S.?

Paul, if it makes sense to give tax breaks to American companies who employ only American workers, why not eliminate the corporate tax entirely and help all American companies? Wouldn’t it be logical that capital, business, and jobs would flow to the U.S. with such favorable tax incentives?

Posted by: Jim M at October 27, 2008 7:58 PM
Comment #268507

So says Barack Obama…you and he are both right. Every company I can think of owes its original successes to being American with American customers, and at the first sign of world-wide competition, they forgot who their customers were, and forgot to bring the date they came with. Every company that out-sources work or relocates major facilities should be relabeled ‘unAmerican company’, and pay additional taxes.

Posted by: Marysdude at October 27, 2008 8:02 PM
Comment #268510

“if it makes sense to give tax breaks to American companies who employ only American workers, why not eliminate the corporate tax entirely and help all American companies? Wouldn’t it be logical that capital, business, and jobs would flow to the U.S. with such favorable tax incentives?”

Jim M that has been the rhetoric for decades yet despite incentives jobs continue to flow out of the country not in. Myself I would be willing to agree to no taxing of corporations as long as they gave up the personhood that has allowed them to strangle our democracy and screw up the politics of this nation and its people the past 30 years. Trade agreements that don’t include environmental and labor standards do all of us a disservice in the long run.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 27, 2008 8:18 PM
Comment #268511

Paul,

Let’s say Boeing has a net revenue even after its cost savings of about $500 million. $176.5 million of that will go to taxes.

If the company would just move to Germany the same $500 million would get it another $51.5 million with which to compete with Airbus. That’s about half what it would need to do the design for a military upgrade of a commercial plane, or enough to pay for the cost of moving the headquarters to Germany. Next year it gets the same advantage, and the next year, etc., etc.

What, Paul, is an American company? A company that leaves millions of dollars on the table year after year.

Posted by: Lee Jamison at October 27, 2008 8:36 PM
Comment #268524

The problem has more to do with trade policy than tax policy.

Airbus is a highly subsidized company. Subsidizing Boeing to continue outsourcing makes zero economic sense.

Posted by: googlumpugus at October 27, 2008 11:58 PM
Comment #268525

I am not an economist. I’m just an old retired guy, but I think your discussions make things too complicated.

First of all, companies don’t pay taxes, consumers do. A company is going to make a certain amount of profit and it doesn’t matter how much they pay in taxes. The democrats want to divide the American people from big business and to do this they constantly say companies don’t pay their share in taxes. Kind of like they want to divide the American people into classes.

As for companies outsourcing or leaving the country: as I said, companies are in business to make a profit. If you look at business on a smaller scale, perhaps it would be easier to understand. The major cities and states that are controlled by democrats are loosing businesses. The northern rust belt states of MI, NY, PA, IN, IL and cities like Detroit, Gary, Toledo, Cleveland, Buffalo, and on and on are all loosing companies. The question is, why? Could the answer be the same as why there is white flight out of these same cities? Could it be that democrats don’t have the slightest idea how to run a city or state? Could it be that democrats only look at business as a “piggy bank”? The problems with American companies on a national level are the same as on a state or city level.

I know, you will say, “you don’t have the slightest idea what you are talking about”, and I will say, “show me a democratically controlled state or city that is successful and not in need of federal funds?” The newest “stimulation package” the democrats want to pass this fall is a package to help bail out states in financial crisis. It just so happens these states are democratically controlled. Why are republican controlled southern sates attracting new American as well as foreign companies? Could it be the republicans look at business, not as an enemy, but rather as an asset?

The reason the market is reacting so irratic is because business is scared to death of a democratic veto proof congress and a democratic president. BHO scares the crap out of everyone.

Posted by: Oldguy at October 28, 2008 12:01 AM
Comment #268531

The fallacy of the Republican stance on this issue at this time is that companies are NOT laying off workers due to lack of capital to expand their business, but, lack of middle class consumers to buy their products. Yet, Republicans can’t tell the difference between a boom and bust economic cycle when it comes to taxes. They want to cut taxes in both scenarios, as McCain is does at this time.

These Republicans like McCain are completely, and totally illogical, uneducated, and for all intents and purposes, illiterate, given the volumes of rational economics knowledge and texts available which they refuse to avail themselves to.

Controlling national debt is as much about raising taxes on business and consumers during high demand economic growth periods, and cutting taxes on consumers during low demand economic contractions, and cutting taxes on business when capital formation is strangled by liquidity or credit issues during high consumer demand economic cycles, as it is about controlling spending by the federal government. But, knuckleheads like McCain flaunt their ignorance comparable to the general public while thumping their chest about how they are just a regular guy like the voter, (equally uneducated and ignorant of economics as the common voter, as it that were a badge of courage or something.)

Posted by: David R. Remer at October 28, 2008 12:58 AM
Comment #268557

old guy,

I guess I wonder why you don’t ask why corporations don’t pay taxes. I have a friend who has a corporation owned by him and his wife. While I disagree that he pays no tax, he does pay very low tax. The corporation is a tax shelter for him and his wife. They are able to write off many of their everyday expenses, purchase cars through the corporation and then pay themselves relatively low salaries to reduce their personal taxes. They live on an income level above $250,000 per year. His wife is also a contract programmer.

The prices they charge are not determined by their tax status. They charge what they are able to charge and be competitive.

I just don’t get why people think this rather common tax dodge is just hunky. I don’t blame them for taking it. It’s legal, they hire an accountant to keep their taxes as low as legally possible. But is it right? Is it a part of what is wrong with our economy?

Posted by: googlumpugus at October 28, 2008 1:23 PM
Comment #268568

Oldguy, you said:

I know, you will say, “you don’t have the slightest idea what you are talking about”, and I will say, “show me a democratically controlled state or city that is successful and not in need of federal funds?”

I’ll do you one better. I’ll show you the tax burdens of all fifty states compared to federal spending.

Let’s look at the top ten recipients of federal funds, compared to the amount of federal taxes they are paying, from that list:

1. New Mexico - $2.03 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
2. Mississippi - $2.02 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
3. Alaska - $1.84 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
4. Louisiana - $1.78 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
5. West Virginia - $1.76 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
6. North Dakota - $1.68 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
7. Alabama - 1.66 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
8. South Dakota - $1.53 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
9. Kentucky - $1.51 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
10. Virginia - $1.51 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.

Does that look like a lot of democratically controlled states on that list?

And hey, just for fun, let’s compare that to the ten states that are paying the most in federal taxes and getting the least federal money back:

41. Colorado - $0.81 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
42. New York - $0.79 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
43. California $0.78 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
44. Delaware $0.77 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
45. Illinois $0.75 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
46. Minnesota $0.72 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
47. New Hampshire $0.71 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
48. Connecticut $0.69 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
49. Nevada $0.65 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.
50. New Jersey $0.61 of federal dollars spent for every dollar in federal taxes paid.

Which seems to dominate that list, democratically controlled states or republican controlled states?

Care to rethink your premise that states the democrats control are the ones that need federal money to get by?

Posted by: Jarandhel at October 28, 2008 2:16 PM
Comment #268576

oldguy - indiana has a democratic gov. he has sold federally funded roads to private companies, and not american companies either. so, our gov. sold our roads to foreigners. those who agree with this practice will find themselves in the minority.

indiana is bleeding jobs. the bush tax plan (and mccain’s) has created a sword that stabs deep in the mid-west. all midwestern states are in a deep recession. trickle down is not working. tax breaks to the wealthy and corporations are not working. nothing in the last 8 years has worked.

an american company takes care of their workers both by wage, and healthcare. if you do not provide both of them, no tax cut. we can buy only american, but it still is up to the ceo’s to ensure american jobs. resist the temptation of cheap labor - because you are an american. resist outsourcing - because you are an american. resist not paying your part because you are american. pain, fear, and economic uncertainty should strengthen americans. the resolve to do the right thing for working americans is to pull all outsourcing now. the right thing to do is to give up the big bonus and profits and provide healthcare to your employees.

now, is not the time for same old same old. change and hope is needed. change in the tax code that has only served the top 2%. it’s time for the other 98% to have their turn. hope that american companies will stop outsourcing prime midwest building jobs. change, and hope - yes a perfect tie in for sen. obama. follow the headlines. follow your instinct. everyone knows it is time for a change. and hope for better days.

Posted by: bluebuss at October 28, 2008 3:09 PM
Comment #268578

“change and hope is needed”

Yes, change is definetly needed, but all we will get with The Obama is hope.
On Nov. 5th, you will hope for the day The Obama is President.
When he is sworn in, you will hope he will give you all those freebies he promised you.
By the middle of his term, you will hope he doesn’t raise your taxes even more.
By the end of his term, you will hope you can keep what few rights you have left.

Yes, “better days” are right around the corner. I can’t wait.

Posted by: kctim at October 28, 2008 3:45 PM
Comment #268579

The first sentence of the original post was, “The big Republican argument for reducing taxes on American companies is that this would allow them to grow and hire more workers.”

The subject of the post is, how taxes affect American companies and I responded by saying:

1. Companies don’t pay taxes, ultimatly consumers pay them.

2. Next, democratic controlled cities and states have a problem with loosing business and ultimatly loosing jobs.

3. Lastly, I said republican controlled states are attracting companies and because democratic controlled states are loosing companies and I might add, continuing to increase spending, they are in need of Federal aid.

http://symbionews.com/thetakeaway/state-deficits-2009.html

California $16 billion deficit: and Schwarzenegger is seeking Federal help and the dems are willing to give it under the new stimulous package.

New York $4.9 billion deficit:

New Jersey $3.5 billion deficit:

The numbers you listed don’t have anything to do with what I was talking about. I know states with less income get more money. But three of the top ten states that pay the most in taxes are also the three states with the most deficit. Perhaps you can explain why their incomes are down, but their spending is still up.

Posted by: Oldguy at October 28, 2008 3:58 PM
Comment #268580

Reflect on This. Wilson, who served as governor from 1991 to 1999, recalled giving that bit of advice to his successor, Gray Davis, whom he left with a $12-billion surplus. “I said, ‘Gray, the only thing standing between financial ruin for the state and the utterly irresponsible conduct of the Legislature is you.’

“ ‘You, as the governor of California, and you alone, have the power to prevent them from doing what they’ll otherwise do. You can say to them, “I’m not signing that. Back to the drawing board, and don’t bring it back until it’s balanced.” If you don’t do that, Gray, I guarantee you they’ll spend their way right through the surplus, all $12 billion.’ ”

Posted by: Rodney Brown at October 28, 2008 4:07 PM
Comment #268581

bluebuss

I don’t have the slightest idea what you are talking about. You say the mid-west is in “deep recession” and you say, “indiana has a democratic gov. he has sold federally funded roads to private companies, and not american companies either. so, our gov. sold our roads to foreigners.”

Since when does a state governor have the power to sell property belonging to the Federal government?

You make my point, the states controlled by democrats are loosing jobs and running deficits. The governors have to take responsibility for their states, that is not the Presidents responsibility.

Posted by: Oldguy at October 28, 2008 4:11 PM
Comment #268582

bluebuss wrote; “an american company takes care of their workers both by wage, and healthcare. if you do not provide both of them, no tax cut. we can buy only american, but it still is up to the ceo’s to ensure american jobs. resist the temptation of cheap labor - because you are an american. resist outsourcing - because you are an american. resist not paying your part because you are american.”

I would like to ask bluebuss and others if they own a car or truck not made in the U.S. If not, why not? How about your television set…made in the USA? It seems that many of us love the low prices of imports but blame our own companies for outsourcing jobs to say in business. We love the freedom to choose among products and freely shop for lower prices but disdain the same freedom in our businesses for shopping for the most friendly labor and tax environments.

Not to worry thought, should the socialist Obama become president with a socialist leaning congress the taxes they place on American business, and those who invest in them, will ensure their either leaving our shores or going out of business.

Spreading the wealth around in this new socialist environment will be a battle for the foreign aid given to us by others.

The solution to keeping and attracting jobs in America can be found in our tax code. Every company in the free world seeks profits and will locate to the country offering the best opportunity for making profit. If you don’t like that, then change how the world operates and install some other “ism” besides capitalism.

Posted by: Jim M at October 28, 2008 4:20 PM
Comment #268586

Oldguy:

You really don’t seem to understand the source you’re citing. Symbion has not provided a list of states taking federal money, nor a list of states in debt and being bailed out by the federal government. It has provided a list of states whose current revenues have come up short against their projected revenues, and are having to adjust their budgets accordingly. According to the very link you posted seven of these states, including California, have already issued revised state budgets addressing this shortfall. Nor is California seeking federal loans for this reason:

Bill Lockyer, the state treasurer, warned Wednesday that with Congress debating a national recovery plan, the state had been locked out of credit markets for the previous 10 days.

“The credit market is frozen because financial institutions are afraid to commit capital amid enormous uncertainty,” he said then.

In an interview on Friday, Lockyer cast the emergency loan as a measure of last resort in the event the recovery plan is defeated or does not compel credit financiers to begin lending money again.

“We want to make sure we exhaust every avenue,” he said.

Typically, he said, the state gets routine short-term loans in the fall to cover its bases until state coffers refill in the spring from tax revenue and other sources. But the shuttered credit market has upended the budgeting. And Lockyer said that even if the credit markets loosen, it could cost more to borrow.

[California considering request for federal aid - International Herald Tribune]

The proper measure for your contention that Democratically controlled states are poorly run and need to borrow federal money is whether or not they are actually receiving more than the average amount of federal aid for the amount of federal taxes they are paying in. The math shows that they are not; Republican controlled districts are receiving the most federal dollars for the least input. Democratically controlled states are, for the most part, generating the money that is being spent by the federal government on mostly Republican controlled states. That means they are also generating the jobs that are producing that money, since they are essentially operating at a surplus while Republican controlled states are operating at a deficit and kept afloat only by disproportionate federal aid. Therefor, your entire contention that Democrats are bad for business in the states they control is fundamentally flawed.

Posted by: Jarandhel at October 28, 2008 4:40 PM
Comment #268593

Jim M:

“Question for Paul; 1) If the strike is successful in keeping those jobs in the U.S., will Boeing remain competitive with Airbus? 2) If Boeing can’t compete with Airbus by keeping those jobs in the U.S. will it move its entire operation overseas? 3) If Boeing moves out of the U.S. will the strike be considered successful. 4) If Boeing paid no federal income tax, as proposed under the “FairTax”, could it compete successfully with AirBus and not only keep, but add to its workforce here in the U.S.?”

1 - Yes. It will be competitive. Remember I said that those who give employment to Americans should get a tax decrease

2 - Boeing will be able to compete. If it moves its jobs overseas I don’t care what happens to it since it is not an American company providing jobs to Americans

3 - If Boeing moves overseas the strike would not be successful

4 - You have a point. Those who employ Americans should have their taxes reduced - and in important situations, eliminated.

Posted by: Paul Siegel at October 28, 2008 5:19 PM
Comment #268595

Job Creation from the Obama and McCain Tax Plans: A State-by-State Analysis
by Shanea Watkins, Ph.D.

“The analysis finds that job growth under Senator John McCain’s (R–AZ) plan at the national level is more than two times faster than job growth under Senator Barack Obama’s (D–IL) plan. Table 1 shows the average yearly employment gain that can be expected in each state as a result of McCain’s and Obama’s tax plans.[2]

Job creation grows faster in McCain’s plan because of the plan’s pro-growth provisions. The McCain proposal includes lower tax rates for businesses and allows businesses to deduct the cost of new purchases of equipment and technology in the first year. Both of these proposals lower business expenses, leaving more money for business owners to use for employment and operation purposes. Owners will use this money to hire new staff, purchase more materials, and invest more in research and development activities.”

Link; http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/wm2105.cfm#_ftn1

Posted by: Jim M at October 28, 2008 5:30 PM
Comment #268596

Paul Siegel said:

“You have a point. Those who employ Americans should have their taxes reduced - and in important situations, eliminated.”

This is not just true with Boeing, it is true with all American companies.

Jarandhel:

Then I guess we have no problems with industry in NY, PA, MI, IN, IL, OH, NJ, or any other state. These states are doing great and everyone is working. So what’s the problem?

Posted by: Oldguy at October 28, 2008 5:33 PM
Comment #268597

Paul, thank you for your answers to the questions I posed. I would go one step further with your answer to question #4. I believe the “Fair Tax”, which would eliminate all corporate taxes, personal income taxes and payroll taxes, among other important changes, would benefit everyone in the US from workers to businesses. With its enactment the US would once again be the envy of the world and once again become the world’s leading economic powerhouse attracting capital and jobs to our shores.

I know that the socialist would disagree as they must have a tax code to manipulate the wealth of the country to favor those who keep them in office and to “spread the wealth around” which amounts to confiscation and not taxation.

Posted by: Jim M at October 28, 2008 5:39 PM
Comment #268598

Jim M

Let me be the first to say, before the left attacks, Shanea Watkins, Ph.D must be a conservative supporter of McCain and her husband must be an advisor to the McCain campaign.

She must be a totally unreliable source of information, because she dares to speak negative of The Merciful Barak Hussein Obama, otherwise known as “THE ONE”.

But your right Jim.

Posted by: Oldguy at October 28, 2008 5:41 PM
Comment #268602

See what Gov Paterson has to say. http://wcbstv.com/local/david.paterson.economy.2.850415.html

Posted by: Rodney Brown at October 28, 2008 6:17 PM
Comment #268607



Good day everyone;

I said it before and nobody believed, …the ‘captains’ in congress ( those democrats:Pelosi, Reid,Frank and others) are giving bonuses and misusing the moneys form our savings to PERPETUATE THIER UNSCRUPULOUS PRACTICES!.

Do not you see it now happening?

Others things are going around too, SO GET ALERT!, GET CORRETLY INFORMED !.
Would be real good to watch another news sources beside the TV TABLOIDS ,:CNN and MSNBC.

If you do not remember, or do not know what I said before? , here is the text:


Now I am really curious. It seems that freedom of speech is going to be down to the ground, should Obama gets the presidency.

Oh!, well, so then really we are going to become a socialist ( should I say communist ) nation. Interesting, just like in the old days in old Russia,… only the news soviet agency TASS with the two branches fussed in as doubble one:- ISVESTIA,PRAVDA, and whoever does not agree with them, is pray for the KGB!

So, no more O’reilly, Hannity, Limbaugh, the entire FOX NEWS structure for that matter!, Oh! yeah! because the TV TABLOIDS ( CNN and MSNBC) are deep in the can with the democrats not to mention number of newspapers and magazines (YELLOW PRESS JUST AS WELL )

Oh!, swell!, those clowns will definitelly survive under ‘THE NEW ORDER’!

And there is more,… we are about to deep once more into our taxpayers savings to aliviate the wounds that those crooks at WallStreet did to us.
BINGO! - THE BERNANKE SECOND INJECTION!,…correct!, wih the ‘MORE OF THE SAME CROOKS AND THIEVES FROM SHORT TIME BACK’

THIS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL OUR SAVINGS GET TOTALLY DRAINED AND THEN!,… GOOD BYE STRONG COUNTRY!,… EASY PREY FOR DESTRUCTION!

Pathetic.

Want to add an extra explanation to the scenario?


The first ‘bail-out’ served only to PERPETUATE THE UNSCRUPULOUS PRACTICES BY corps and individuals ( mostly democrats!) Fannie, Freddie, Raines, Johnson, O’Neal, ETC. and backed by Barney Frank, Pelosi and others,…well you know the story.

And also everybody knows how dilligents those crooks and thieves were, going in mini-vacation-kind-of-cellebration spending over 145 THOUSAND $$ in expensive hotels and maasages, ETC,…all that type of things.

Now they are shooting for more money !! , with new so called,…’directives’ and /or ‘concepts to furnish programs and ways to help the people,…even further’,…so they say.

Ah! mighty galaxies!, like we should believe them!. Indeed , they all are objects of art, actually they are: - CON-ARTISTS!,…that is the concept.

Well, with the first bail-out they open the doors to the SOCIALISM that Obama want to INJECT to our economic system and will definitely constitude the fall of the american power.

Picture this if you will,

1. Economic crissis is created ( let to be happened ) to help Obama, to be attractive to the masses, for ECONOMY is a big factor in our life-style, and in fact is a pillar for our national security.

NOTICE THAT ECONOMIC SANCTIONS ARE PUT INTO EFFECT TO THOSE STATES WE NEED TO BACK DOWN THEIR EMPHASIS TO DESTROY FREEDOM. It is an effective technique.

So, this was allowed to happened here in our very grounds.

2. Now, Obama comes with a plan to even further nationalization of the private assets :- ‘SPREAD THE WEALTH AROUND’- actually a SOCIALIST PRACTICE. Just get educated on this: and read THE COMMUNIST MANIFESTO and other writtings by Carl Max and Fredderick Engels.
THEN, compare this kind of literature with our CONSTITUTION and wrttings by John Locke and Thomas Hobbs and you VERY CLEAR, WILL SEE THE DIFFERENCE!

My fellows american , this sounds to me like a MASTER PLAN to bring down the power of our great country.
OBAMA IS A ‘TROJAN HORSE FACTOR’ BRINGING WEAKNES TO OUR COUNTRY, OK?

A MASTER PLAN OF DESTRUCTION. VERY ELUSIVE, VERY EFFECTIVE!

Does it sound science-fiction to you?,…too speculative? Well, I have news for you : WE ARE LIVING IT! and our children will pay HIGH PRICE if we do not put the RIGHT PEOPLE in the LEADERSHIP!

We are in need,… OUR COUNTRY NEEDS NOW SOMEONES WHO ELIMINATE CORRUPTION , OVERSPENDING, AND MANTAIN NATIONAL SECURITY IN PLACE.

We need leaders that take on corruption in government and in the financial sector, WE DO NEED REAL REFORM NOT A MOCKERY AND FALSE TALKING PROMISES.

A question:

Can Obama fight and eliminate the CORRUPTION , and eliminate the absurd OVERSPENDING in Washington and in the finanacial spectrum without POLITICAL SUICIDE?

YES? or NO?

The reason I ask is because he is all the way to his eye-balls connected to corps and individuals of questionable integrity , responsible with all this economic mess,…you know ,…CONFLICT OF INTERESTS HERE!

He IS very successful in sounding CONVINCING to the masses for most out there are not informed, NO EDUCATED IN THINGS IMPORTANT TO KNOW. OBAMA DOES NEED INGNORANCE AMONG THE MASSES, SO HE CAN CONTROL AND DRIVE THEM.

This is common sense: if taxes ( all types, SPECIALLY THE CORPORATE GAIN CAPITAL TAXES are elevated) the jobs that they are OUT THERE, WILL REMAIN OUT THERE AND EVEN MORE WILL GO OUT THERE.

If actual taxes are untouched and croporate gain taxes get elilminated or reduced, JOBS FROM OUT THERE, WILL RETURN HERE TO AMERICANS AND MORE JOBS WILL BE EMERGE AS RESULT.

Is simple fouth grade arithmetic, we do not need to be a theoretical scientist in quantum physiscs to understand this one. Is very simple 1+1=2, and 2x2=4.

WE HAVE TO STOP THIS MADNES!

A ‘TROJAN HORSE FACTOR’ IS AMONG US AND NEEDS TO BE REVEALED! TOTALLY EXPOSED!

Just give some thoughts to his, will you ?,…it is worthy,OUR CHILDREN ARE IN THE LINE HERE , DO NOT FORGET THEM!

I do hope that Sen McCain or Gov Palin ( or both of them ) ask Obama openly, during one of those rallies something like this:

“SEN OBAMA, CAN YOU FIGHT THE CORRUPTION AND GREEDY IDIVIDUALS IN WAHINGTON AND IN THE FINANCIAL SPECTRUM STARTING FROM DAY ONE IN OFFICE WITHOUT GO INTO POLITICAL SUCIDE?,…WOULD YOU DO THAT FOR THIS COUNTRY?”
I would like to hear his answer!

I wander how the electorate will react.(???)

Sincerely, Daniel Cabrera
Merrillville, Indiana
PS; With Obama as president we REALLY GET MORE OF THE SAME!

Don’t you get it? MORE SAME CORRUPTION AND DEFICIENCY IN ECONOMY
JUST REMEMBER THE DEMOCRAT WERE THE ONES THAT SCREWED-UP
MEANING , FANNNIE, FREDDIE, RAINES,JOHNSON,O’NEAL,BARNEY FRANK,
PELOSI,BERANKE AND OTHERS CLOWNS THERE.
OBAMA=MORE OF THE SAME - REAL AND PRESENT DANGER!

Hey!, WAKE-UP! OBAMA IS WEAK,WEAK,WEAK,…HE IS ONLY AND ONLY,
JUST FLASHY!

If he gets elected, all those on his favour now, will be extremely sorry, wishing to
have a TIME MACHINE to go back in time and undo the voting.

But you see, TIME travels only in one direction for us humans, and once we do
ANYTHING , THERE IS POINT OF NO RETURN!

Perhaps future technology will provide otherwise ( it just might be,…not sure yet

_______________________________________________

ECONOMY;

It seems that the ‘trump-card’ is economy nowadays.
Ahh!!…. ECONOMY! ,…the confetti of the month!

Ok, to make it short , even the high-stars business men and experts say over and over this:…”….nobody knows what to do really ……we all trying shoots in the dark,…for is an unprescedental plateau…”


In other words, do not, …did you read well?,..DO NOT ! pretend that McCain or Obama( any of them) will shake this one, and fix it just like by magic.

ON THE OTHER HAND:- also, the top bussiness men and experts have a consensus of:- …”if higher taxes, at the present economy status are applied the economy will definitelly plumet lower very dangerously…”

History shows that the last time encreasing of taxes were made in a similar situation, that generated THE BIG DEPRESSION in the early 30’s.
SO WOULD BE GOOD THAT EVERYONE, READ, INVESTIGATE AND GET FAMILIARIZE WITH THIS.

So, it will be INCORRECT to elevate taxes OF ANY KIND at present times. This should gives an idea wich one from the candidates is/are the let so say :,…THE LESS OR LEAST DESTRUCTIVE for our economy structure.

But that is on just on ECONOMY. Make your own story, the best you can.

The next topic perhaps , could be NATIONAL SECURITY, but this is for another segment.

Oh! yes!,because if our beloved country is not secured wisely/get attacked and destroyed , we will not have any ECONOMY to worry about.

So you see?,…we need a POWERFUL AND WELL SEASONED PRESIDENT for that task, CORRECT?…and lately,things around the world are not precisely the most promising ones for to be happy about!, RIGHT?


SO, THINK ABOUT THIS ONE FOR NEXT TIME!


NATIONAL SECURITY;
TEST FOR OBAMA-WORLD CRISSIS

Let so make the enunciation short:

1. Powell endorses Obama .

2. Biden gave us a ‘PROPHECY’,.. a TEST for Obama (ONLY OBAMA)).

If wisdom, experience, courage, tacticals and estrategics, along with vision for global dynamics could be infused or transfused or absorbed , or CREATED BY WHATEVER UKNOWN STRANGE PROCESS , as result of POWELL’S ENDORSEMENT,…then we can be definitely sure that our NATIONAL SECURUTY, domestic and abroad, would be well set.

The scenario is however far form reality and even the fictional, does not fit the wishful thinking.

Those ‘OUTSIDER OBSERVERS’, understand, sense, and know for sure that IF the president elected is of STRONG RECORD OF STRENGH, this our great country is going to be PROTECTED AT LARGE NO MATTER WHAT for the PACKAGE will be there.

IF , ON THE OTHER HAND, WEAKNESS IS SENSED ( as our enemies are wishing for), a continuation of asaults ( 9-11 type ) is for to be experienced over and over here in main land USA grounds,…not too good scenario.

Obama said number of times, that Iran, and Venezuela are not threats for they are: ‘small countries’,…well, for the records?,…THERE IS NO SUCH A THING AS ‘SMALL ENEMY’ ,…GET THIS VERY, VERY CLEAR.

A picture in a ‘byrd-eye-view’:

Russia, is in the offense, does not stay in their word, even further is right here in our backyard in association with Venezuela ( Hugo Chavez to be exact) .

Iran continues nuclear progam and weapon enterprises, ignoring over FIVE YEARS OF ATTEMPTING DIPLOMACY from USA and Security Council at United Nations, including The European Consortium,…well my friends,… ( NOTHING WORKS WITH THOSE GUYS), and in addition , just in case is not enough?,… North Korea is in similar predicament.

Now, get it straight, OUR COUNTRY NEEDS A STRONG LEADERSHIP THAT TRANSLATE INTO : ‘DO NOT! MESS WITH USA, PERIOD!

ONLY A STRONG LEADER CAN MAKE THAT REFLECTION OUT THERE TO THE WORLD.

Omama DOES NOT HAVE THE RANKS.

Perhaps now you can think about this, or not,…and cast a logical and educated vote.

You choice.

Ultimately I woud say that a fundamental part of our success will depend greatly also in to PRESERVE OUR WAY OF LIFE WTH THE SYSTEM WHICH SHOULD FIT OUR GREAT COUNTRY :- A DEMOCRACY-CAPITALIST.

In addition to accomplish and perpetuate this, is paramount to prevent future CORRUPTION AND DESTRUCTIVE GREED IN GOVERNMENT AND BUSINESS.

We do know Obama is unfited for the protection of our country, nor inclined to clean-up nor stabilize government and the financial spectrum for reasons already known.

In addition is also known that his root of afiliations and associations are not at the latitud for someone who seek the presidential rank. On that we can point out : corps and individuals of questionabel integrity such as ; Freddie, Fannie, Raines, Johnson, O’Neal, Frank, Reid, Pelosi ;- along with another anti-american characters such asACORN goup, Ayers, Wright, Alinsky.

Not to mention outsiders anti-american sympathizers like The Hamas and other terrorist gorups who they would see with good eyes, Obama as president of our country.

In conclusion, Obama’s complete alure is not the bestt one.

The picture IS NOT POSITIVELY PROMISING.

In view of this scenario Obama could be branded as: ENEMY OF THE ESTATE.

Should not , and MUST NOT be elected as president of our great beloved nation.

THINK OF THIS VERY SERIOUSLY!

Sincerely,
Daniel Cabrera
Merrillvillle, Indiana


Posted by: Daniel Cabrera at October 28, 2008 6:34 PM
Comment #268615

I found this quote in Mr. Siegel’s article very enlightening.

Is Boeing an American company? It’s located in the Chicago area and has big plants in a Seattle suburb. For a long time it has supplied good jobs.

Are you aware that Boeing’s headquarters were in Seattle for nearly 85 years until they moved to Chicago?

And why did they move their headquarters to Chicago? Well, taxes were bad in Seattle and Chicago gave them 63 million dollars in tax breaks to come. They even paid half of Boeing’s moving expenses!

If even Chicago’s liberal politicians can understand this, then why can’t we? They estimated that Boeing would eventually bring in billions of dollars to their economy, not to mention provide jobs.

You can talk about how terrible it to give breaks to corporations all you want, but corporations are the cash cow for any liberal social spending you might feel like doing, and if you don’t give them preferential treatment they’ll just go elsewhere. Including other countries.

Posted by: Liam at October 28, 2008 7:23 PM
Comment #268628

Jim M,

There is nothing fair about the Fair Tax (23% national sales tax to replace current income, corporate and payroll taxes). Particularly, for the middle class which would bear the brunt of the tax. Lower income earners would be exempted from the tax by a rebate. High income earners would only be taxed only their consumption not on the amount of their income. Investment income would be tax free! Guess what, a middle income family consumes the great majority of its income in meeting its daily needs. High income families do not comsume all their income on daily necessities. They would receive a tax break bonanza under the Fair Tax proposal. What’s fair about that?

Posted by: Rich at October 28, 2008 8:46 PM
Comment #268642

Rich I have heard that 23% is actually 30% if it is a sales tax? I mean for every dollar you pay 30 cents in tax. The 23% figure is misleading.

Seems not only is it not fair its also not truthful.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 28, 2008 10:47 PM
Comment #268645

Oldguy says “First of all, companies don’t pay taxes, consumers do.”

Then why do they get representation in Congress? Where in the constitution is the word corporation? Or Consumer for that matter. I do see we the people though.

“The democrats want to divide the American people from big business and to do this they constantly say companies don’t pay their share in taxes. Kind of like they want to divide the American people into classes.”

Oldguy judging from your comments its ok for the corporate class to not pay taxes, to bribe our elected representatives and not share any responsibilities of this nation yet you deride the dems for making this known to the public? This after they use the 14th amendment to falsely claim personhood which gives them the rights of a natural born American.

“As for companies outsourcing or leaving the country: as I said, companies are in business to make a profit.”

If the only reason corporations exist is to profit and these corporations bare no social responsibility nor patriotic duties why do they control our government with their campaign contributions and lobbyist?


“The reason the market is reacting so irratic is because business is scared to death of a democratic veto proof congress and a democratic president. BHO scares the crap out of everyone.”

Such a ridiculous and illogical statement Oldguy, It shows just how behind the times you are. The corporate lobbyist are buying their way into the democrats during this election cycle just like they did the republicans. The difference between the 2 parties is the democrats also take funds from unions and other special interest groups but by far and away its corporate money that is destroying our form of government.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 28, 2008 11:33 PM
Comment #268648

J2t2, it’s just a fact that corporations don’t pay taxes and consumers do. Corporations collect taxes, add the taxes to what they charge consumers, and then hand that money on to the government. It’s pretty simple.

If you don’t believe me, go to Burger King and order a hamburger. When you get your bill, part of it will be sales tax which you and not they will be paying and part of the money you’re charged will be for whatever taxes they pay for income. If any of those taxes come down you’ll pay less and may have enough change left in your pocket for onion rings. Hurray! If those taxes come down and Burger King doesn’t lower their price, then McDonald’s will because they’d like to seduce you into clogging your arteries with their greasy food instead. It’s called supply and demand. It’s called the market in action.

All together now. Corporations don’t pay taxes. They collect them.

Posted by: Liam at October 29, 2008 12:13 AM
Comment #268650

Liam you have to read what I said my friend. If you look you will see I did not disagree with that statement I simply queried those on the right as to why corporations get a free ride and special privileges in this country yet do don’t have responsibilities that come with rights.

So altogether now corporations don’t pay taxes but get special treatment in this country.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 29, 2008 12:38 AM
Comment #268670

The 23% and the 30% are both misleading, as current sales taxes would continue apace (those imposed by state and local governments). Those rebates would almost have to occur AFTER the fact, so how many of the working poor would fall through the cracks while paying 35-40% sales (FAIR) taxes?

Yes, since the wealthy tend to save or reinvest their hard earned monies, the tax burden on the middle class, who have to spend most of their earnings on little things like food and clothing would catch the brunt of the FAIR tax burden…so, what’s new? Only that the middle class is shrinking, since the ‘trickle down’ hasn’t panned out, and there are less and less middle class to carry that burden. The fix? Raise the FAIR tax to higher and higher rates…please don’t tax the wealthy…they will get mad and quit giving those jobs out to us saps, probably by moving to Costa Rico.

Posted by: Marysdude at October 29, 2008 9:26 AM
Comment #268677

Off Thread:

Does anyone else wonder who mccain has actually chosen as his running mate…Sarah or Joe?

Posted by: Marysdude at October 29, 2008 10:30 AM
Comment #268690

Daniel
Are you kidding ???
Your post gave me a brain meltdown.

Posted by: S. Hollahan at October 29, 2008 12:36 PM
Comment #268692

OFF THREAD:


http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/29/mccain-slams-la-times-double-standard-withholding-obama-khalidi-tape/

whats up with this ?

Posted by: dbs at October 29, 2008 1:11 PM
Comment #268698

Paul: Boeing insists that outsourcing is necessary to compete.

Yes, it is, and here’s why: due to the excessive cost of living in the US compared to other countries, the wage and benefit structure needed to attract and keep workers adds so much cost to the product that Boeing, and many other US companies that have outsourced, finds it difficult to be competitive with companies in countries that don’t have such a high cost structure.

It really has little if anything to do with the tax structure. As is the case with Joe the not-too-dang-smart plumber, the “excessive” business tax rates have little real effect on business because that tax rate is charged on the net profit less the many tax breaks including re-investment, depreciation, etc.

Most US-based businesses actually pay a much lower effective tax percentage and many pay no business tax at all, even in a profitable year. The fact that a business pays any tax in a given year is more reflective of their unwillingness to hire and retain top legal and accounting talent than it is of either the success of the company or the raw corporate tax rate.

So why does it cost so much to hire and retain workers in this country? Many, especially on the right side, blame it on unions and government regulation, which I’m sure are each partly to blame.

I personally think it has more to do with the gradual, barely perceptible price inflation that has been happening since 1980. I know many will say that the Fed et al report that inflation is under control and has been under control at least since 1980. But if you look at the way they calculate price inflation, you’ll know that they intentionally discount increases in food, fuel and housing, so the Fed’s measure of inflation is inaccurate.

In fact, on the mere basis of currency inflation, there is no doubt that inflation is occurring though its net effect on prices is mitigated somewhat by other countries accepting the flood of dollar-denominated IOUs cranked out by the Fed.

In other words, though there is a lot more dollars around nowadays, we don’t see prices rising in proportion because the dollars don’t stay here.

By adding roughly $700 billion to the money supply recently with the mere stroke of a pen, the Bush administration has effectively doomed this country forever to be non-competitive in any economic sector that is labor intensive and able to be moved offshore, including airplane manufacturing.

So I don’t know what the answer is. But I do know that raising the corporate tax rate is the wrong thing to do. Best case, the most-valuable and most-profitable economic activities will continue to move offshore, leaving the crup jobs like sweeping, burger-flipping and septic tank-cleaning here in the US.

Posted by: EJN at October 29, 2008 2:03 PM
Comment #268699

Be careful, I think mccain has about as much of a background with Khalidi as Obama…this might bite Little mac in the buttock.

Posted by: Marysdude at October 29, 2008 2:09 PM
Comment #268704

dude, JTP has announced his plans to run for the Congressional seat in his district. I am good friends with the chief aide for the incumbent, and they don’t seem to be taking it too seriously…..at least at this time.
Geeze…doncha just love the brainpower emerging from this campaign?
Well s**t, the R party needed desperately to do some housecleaning….kind of fun that they’re doing it so we all can enjoy it.

Posted by: janedoe at October 29, 2008 2:46 PM
Comment #268706

Here is another indication of just how desperate the Republicans are….and nobody can beat them when it comes to slime:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_10/015426.php

Posted by: janedoe at October 29, 2008 3:01 PM
Comment #268707

A better example of what is going wrong is the US domestic automobile industry, especially GM and Chrysler.

It is not the tax rate that is killing them, it is the labor cost. One might also argue that they have poor management as well, but that’s another topic.

Taxes aren’t even in the top 10 of what’s hurting the US domestic automobile industry.

Posted by: EJN at October 29, 2008 3:10 PM
Comment #268738

janedoe,

I wonder if Bob knew about this before she released it…he always appeared to be an honorable man. Boy, his wife sure got lost in the muck, didn’t she?

Posted by: Marysdude at October 29, 2008 7:19 PM
Comment #268745

You know, I agree with you about him… I still think that it’s the “desperate measures” thing. And it’s possible that the RNC is behind most of these, and scruples are not the order of the day. With those seats they stand to lose, no muck is too mucky.

Posted by: janedoe at October 29, 2008 8:16 PM
Comment #268757

I think we’re seeing a lot of desperate measures out there a few days before an election but I’m not too sure about this one. If you take campaign money from something called the “Godless American PAC” and attend meetings with them it’s not very smart politics if you’re running in a state like North Carolina. Of course your opponent is going to say something about it. Nobody forces you to take that money or hang around those people and if you do you’re asking for trouble.

It’s actually kinda stupid for a group that actually has a political message most people agreee with, the separation of church and state, to call themselves Godless instead of something more innocent sounding.

Posted by: Liam at October 29, 2008 9:55 PM
Comment #268816

Liam,

I don’t think it was a ‘Godless’ group. I think it was a group that one member of the Godless American PAC attended. I’m pretty sure no money exchanged hands.

This is a quote from the link janedoe cited:

>It’s hard to know where to start with an ad this deplorable. First, Hagan is actually a Sunday school teacher and an elder in her church. Second, the fundraiser in question was co-hosted by 40 people, one of whom is on the board of an atheist political action committee. Third, there’s nothing scandalous about non-believers.

And fourth, what the hell is “godless money”?

That is why the whole thing stinks…Republican Politics as Usual

Posted by: Marysdude at October 30, 2008 12:08 PM
Comment #268817

PS:

And, I might add…it wasn’t the most honorable thing to have someone mimic Hagan’s voice at the end of the ad, by shouting “there is no God!”.

Posted by: Marysdude at October 30, 2008 12:10 PM
Comment #268954

Liam: it’s not very smart politics if you’re running in a state like North Carolina.

Of course, what the religious whacko right always seems to forget is that much as they would like to believe otherwise, our senators, congressmen/women and President represent constituents of all religions or lack thereof, OK?

If you want to make it try to look bad that Hagan took the money from the atheistic PAC, that’s one thing; to make it seem as if Hagan herself is not a believer in God, which is obviously what Dole tried to do, is way beyond the pale.

And, yes, it is politics as usual for Republicans.

Posted by: EJN at October 31, 2008 9:03 AM
Comment #268965

oldguy - i meant to say repub gov. “ditch” mitch daniels. yes the same guy who said iraq would cost 11 billion dollars to fight in 2003.

this republican did sell our federally funded roads. and should be indicted. but no one holds a republican accountable for anything.

you’re right EJIN politics as usual for republicans. when are we going to learn repubs=recession. there is no one who can refute that. i’ll say it again repubs=recession.

sorry to respond so late - and BOO!

Posted by: bluebuss at October 31, 2008 11:03 AM
Comment #269026

Boeing is in Chicago because it’s the best place to be in business, not a mess like NY or LA, but that’s because of a business friendly local government. When Harold Washington was mayor, Chicago was heading in the same direction as Detroit and other “rust belt” cities, with a government trying to tell everyone who to hire and how to run their businesses. When Montgomery Ward was going out of business, I couldn’t believe how low their property was valued. Real estate prices were declining. If you wanted to buy up properties for redevelopment, you had to believe that the government was going to change for the better.

Posted by: ohrealy at October 31, 2008 8:55 PM
Comment #269172

Machinists ratify Boeing pact, set to resume work
By RORY MARSHALL, Associated Press Writer .

Posted by: Rodney Brown at November 2, 2008 11:55 AM
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