Democrats & Liberals Archives

Republicans and Voter Turnout

The Republicans pound ACORN. But are they justified? No. To put it plainly, ACORN’s helped send those who committed the fraud up the river, but additionally, even if ACORN intentionally falsified voter registrations (which it did not), experts, including one who pursued voting fraud in the Bush Administration have found it to be exceedingly rare for the sins of registration to become offenses of ballot casting. So why does the GOP care?

The short answer, really, is that they want to win close elections. They want to depress turnout on the other side. They want to scare voters.

The tactics are coming up again in Montana, in Michigan, and now in Ohio
In the case of Michigan, they're challenging the registrations of foreclosed upon voters. In Montana, they challenged the several counties that turned out most reliably for Democrats.

Now, John McCain’s Southwest Ohio campaign chairman, Hamilton County Prosecutor Joe Deters, is filing subpeonas trying to get to the personal information of a particular set of voter registration records.

Vote Caging. Intimidation and investigation that former officials of the justice see as ethically questionable While experts have found that voting fraud is fairly rare, reports find the deprivation of voter's rights through voter purges to be quite common, not to mention illegal.

Overall, we look at this picture and find that the greatest danger to voting rights is not spelled ACORN, but instead GOP. They have decided that their efforts to persuade voters are insufficient by themselves to win, and have decide instead, to simply remove their influence on the process. The trouble is, of course, that the voter's influence is mandated by law, and the GOP's influence is only supposed to be mandated by the voters.

The worst part about this is the use of official government resources, supposed to work for all Americans, to favor the party's power. The government cannot and should not be able to give birth to itself through its exercise of power. The parents should be the voters, each and every time.

It is true that voting fraud cancels out votes. But it is rare, and this breach of voting rights, being much more common, does worse: it not only cancels out a vote, but prevents the person from ever making the choice.

Posted by Stephen Daugherty at October 19, 2008 8:25 AM
Comments
Comment #267430

Listening to McCain/Palin this morning rant on about Taxes and Acorn, socialism, and Joe sixpack demonstrates the evil intent of the GOP. These issues are completely false and more than that presumes their audience is stupid. It’s a feel good, blame switching stance that Joe Geobbels would be proud of. Let’s hope they’re not.

Posted by: googlumpugus at October 19, 2008 9:38 AM
Comment #267444

In Georgia, the Secretary of State has been challenged in court for enforcing voter registration identification too well. She happens to be a Republican in a state that is forever Republican. But because Obama set up a handful of offices there, and because he started signing up new voters, the Secretary went into panic mode…how did folks find out the she was going overboard in her ministrations? The Social Security Administration caught a flag on the number of hits on their site asking for verification of the last four digits of SSNs. Georgia had requested TWO MILLION verifications at one time. If you don’t know what that means, look in an atlas for the population of Georgia. If Obama has signed on two million new voters in the state of Georgia…whew!!! But, it looks like that may be what she was worried about.

SSA said the Georgia demand was about ten times that of other states per capita.

Are Republicans reaching???

Posted by: Marysdude at October 19, 2008 1:06 PM
Comment #267447

Yep they’re reaching…but it’s for towels and talc, because they are sweating, big time.
We must remain alert at the maximum level because the more fearful they become, the more nastiness will fall into line. We know that absolutely nothing is beneath them in their determination to continue their control.

Posted by: janedoe at October 19, 2008 1:31 PM
Comment #267448

Now you dems got to admit that you would do the same if acorn had ties to the republicans.

Posted by: KAP at October 19, 2008 1:32 PM
Comment #267451

KAP, what makes you so sure that the Republicans don’t use their services too??

Posted by: janedoe at October 19, 2008 1:44 PM
Comment #267452

jane
I don’t know. But when the Democratic candidate for president of the U.S. was their attorney at one time and some kind of trainer it leads me to believe that they had more ties to the Democrats.

Posted by: KAP at October 19, 2008 2:07 PM
Comment #267454

The subject of the post was ACORN signing up voters and of course BHO wants to stay away from ACORN as much as possible, but I think there is truth in Marysdude statement: “If Obama has signed on two million new voters in the state of Georgia…whew!!! But, it looks like that may be what she was worried about.”

Now, who signed these 2 million voters up, was it non-partisan ACORN or BHO’s people?

Judging from some of the things going on around the country, I think voter registration should be challenged.

Posted by: Oldguy at October 19, 2008 2:26 PM
Comment #267459

KAP

if acorn had ties to the republicans.

There is no “if” about it. If ACORN is such a terrible organization, then why did John McCain appear at their 2006 rally?

Answer: Because they’re not a terrible organization, and because the McCain Campaign is ranting on about this in desperation due to the fact that he seems sure to lose this election.

Stephen:

Overall, we look at this picture and find that the greatest danger to voting rights is not spelled ACORN, but instead GOP.

Well said. And we know that this has been true since the 2000 election.

goog:

Listening to McCain/Palin this morning rant on about Taxes and Acorn, socialism, and Joe sixpack demonstrates the evil intent of the GOP. These issues are completely false and more than that presumes their audience is stupid.

Well, with the large number of intelligent Republicans who have endorsed Obama, most recently Colin Powell, doesn’t it seem fair to begin seriously questioning the IQ of the audience who keep cheering on McCain and Palin’s lying rants?

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at October 19, 2008 3:01 PM
Comment #267462

VV
People can have ties with groups until they find out unsavory things about those groups. BHO severed ties with Wright, Ayers and a few others. We just have to wait and see what happens.

Posted by: KAP at October 19, 2008 3:14 PM
Comment #267471

stephen


“even if ACORN intentionally falsified voter registrations (which it did not), experts, including one who pursued voting fraud in the Bush Administration have found it to be exceedingly rare for the sins of registration to become offenses of ballot casting. So why does the GOP care?”

i don’t know about texas, but here in ohio registration fraud is a felony. it’s interesting that your positive that acorn was not complicit in the fraud being commited by thier employees. the secretary of state here has lost two court cases, and has been ordered by a judge in her appeal to verify the legitimacy of those restrations through BMV records. she agreed to do just that after losing on appeal. a day later she changes her mind ( under pressure from the DNC i’ll bet ) and appeals to the US supreme court. if there is nothing to hide, why not allow the registations to be verified ? my guess would be the DNC hopes by appealing to the supreme court there will not be time before the election to complete the process, and they can claim voters would be disenfranchised. i never did hear whether the supreme court decided to hear, or decline the case. does anyone hear know ?

Posted by: dbs at October 19, 2008 4:05 PM
Comment #267473

VV
I’m not affraid of him I just don’t like his liberal views and I think his tax plan is BULLS__T and his health plan, personally I don’t like McCain’s either.

Posted by: KAP at October 19, 2008 4:16 PM
Comment #267474

vv

this is cute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdDnKh1PgjU

do you condone this type of garbage ?

Posted by: dbs at October 19, 2008 4:17 PM
Comment #267479

dbs
The supreme court went in favor of the Secretary. But the Ohio RNC is persuing other legal ways.

Posted by: KAP at October 19, 2008 4:46 PM
Comment #267480

dbs:

do you condone this type of garbage ?

Why would you assume that? After all, I didn’t post a link to that, you did. So, are you the one who condones that “cute garbage”?
Here’s a couple more questions for you: Do you condone this kind of garbage?
Or how about this garbage in defense of it?

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at October 19, 2008 4:54 PM
Comment #267481

Oldguy-
It doesn’t matter who signed them up. They could be signed up by the Church of Satan, but if the information is right, and the person is a living breathing United States Citizen entitled to vote, it should not matter. A valid registration is a valid registration.

I don’t care whether the registrations are for Republicans or Democrats, because I see no good in cheating the system. I would oppose Democrats vote caging, because however much of an advantage it might give us, it both puts us at a disadvantage when objecting to your party’s excesses, and it’s just plain wrong. I want us to win because we are better and more persuasive candidates.

KAP-
First of all ACORN lost bang for their buck, so to speak, when fewer valid registrations came in. I have no doubt that it is in their own interests, politically speaking, to sign up more people, and sign them up for real. Fake registration are going to get caught, and folks won’t be able to vote with them. The folks at ACORN also have been doing something that somebody engaged in fraud usually tries not to do: flag the deceptions for the authorities to follow up on. They have to submit all these registrations, are required to by law.

The Bush White House went after Voter Fraud with a vengeance, made it a priority for their prosecutors. And what did they find? Little, if anything. If the fanatics with a political interest in the outcome can’t find the bogus votes, then it should be obvious: The voter fraud investigations are fishing expeditions, charges made before any crime has truly been determined to have occured.

In this country, we don’t simply go looking places for crimes to turn up. This is not a police state where it is the authorities business to constantly be looking in ours to root out criminal behavior. The government must be kept at arm’s length until such point as it’s proved an actual crime has been committed.

And what is it doing here? Selectively going after people’s registrations, targeting the opposition party’s demographics, even the county’s they’re living in. This trickery doesn’t merely cancel out people’s votes as all these absent fraudulent votes would do if they actually existed, they take that person’s right to participate at all away from them. It tramples on a fundamental right.

Tell me, is this how you wish to win? Do you want the undercurrent beneath every Republican victory to be that you cut out some critical portion of the opponent’s constituents, rather than truly, actually convincing more people to vote for your people? Winning at any cost, is ultimately, winning at the highest cost.

There are only two ends to such aggressive manipulation of the system. People are either motivated to pile on their votes until your vote-caging no longer can guarantee the numbers necessary to win, or, people take matters into their own hands.

Ultimately, you can’t win, taking this kind of approach. If voting fraud becomes a real problem that affects large numbers of voters, then dealing with it will be necessary. But right now, the real problem, the greater problem, are the Republican Party’s attempts to win by depriving people of their right to vote.

dbs-
First, let me say that I think that’s stuff is immature, and unnecessary. But second, let me congratulate you on the speed with which you’ve changed the subject. I think vicious attacks on a person’s character meant seriously rise much further to the level of serious consideration than the typical internet immaturity.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 19, 2008 4:55 PM
Comment #267483

S.D.
All I said was that the Dems would do the same thing the Reps would do. Like dbs said in Ohio registration fraud is a felony and the persons doing such should be prosecuted no matter what party they are from and if a party wins that way there should be an automatic recall.

Posted by: KAP at October 19, 2008 5:06 PM
Comment #267486

vv

Why would you assume that?

i assumed nothing. i asked a simple question.

“After all, I didn’t post a link to that, you did.”

actually if you check under the youtube video you linked to, you’ll find that link. thats where i found it.

i don’t condone the spreading of lies, regardless of who spreads them.

Posted by: dbs at October 19, 2008 5:15 PM
Comment #267487

KAP

thank you.

Posted by: dbs at October 19, 2008 5:16 PM
Comment #267489

Stephen

i have to admit i’m puzzled by your response. i think your refereing to my response to vv, but i’m not sure.

as far as my response to you, i only responded to your post. i don’t see where i’ve changed the subject. i guess you didn’t have an answer to my question.

Posted by: dbs at October 19, 2008 5:23 PM
Comment #267490

The “Church of Satan” doesn’t need to register voters, since we have motor voter here. I thought that was a national law. When I changed my address on my driver’s license, it changed my registration, although the DL is from the state, and the registration is through the county. This actually works much better than the older system. Lines at the polling places are going to be the bigger problem, and “celebrations” on election night may be the biggest problem. We already had jackasses carrying folding chairs, from some church in Bronzeville, getting into people’s faces and hollering BARACK WON repeatedly, trying to provoke fights, and that was just after the Ole Miss debate.

Posted by: ohrealy at October 19, 2008 5:31 PM
Comment #267491

dbs:

actually if you check under the youtube video you linked to, you’ll find that link. thats where i found it.

So now whenever anyone links to anything on YouTube, they’re automatically responsible for every other video link that happens to appear on the page? That’s absolutely ridiculous. Totally illogical, too. But, it does sort of highlight my earlier comment about whether folks need to start questioning the average IQ of the typical McCain-Palin supporter…


i don’t condone the spreading of lies, regardless of who spreads them.

No, neither do I.
Btw, if this how you truly feel, then I suspect you must also feel absolutely crushed in disappointment over the direction that McCain’s campaign has taken overall.

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at October 19, 2008 5:34 PM
Comment #267493

This might be interesting to part of us, anyway…


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-fraud20-2008oct20,0,3842357.story

Posted by: janedoe at October 19, 2008 6:30 PM
Comment #267494

vv

“So now whenever anyone links to anything on YouTube, they’re automatically responsible for every other video link that happens to appear on the page? That’s absolutely ridiculous. Totally illogical, too.”

i found the link under your video, and clicked on it. didn’t claim you were personally responsible for it, only that it was there, and in my opinion showed what i considered childish BS. i don’t condone cheap shots, like i said. the thing is i realize both sides use them, and all you seem to do is tell us how dirty the right is. take off the partisan blinders. you’re more likely to find the truth.

“Btw, if this how you truly feel, then I suspect you must also feel absolutely crushed in disappointment over the direction that McCain’s campaign has taken overall.”

i don’t waste energy getting upset over things i have no control over. mc cain wasn’t my pick, but i’m stuck with him. to vote for anyone else in a third party would only help obama, and he’s to far left for me. if he wins thats just the way it is, and being upset over it is just a waste of time.

Posted by: dbs at October 19, 2008 6:54 PM
Comment #267498

dbs-
The case you referred to, concerning the Ohio Secretary of State, was lost by your side, more or less on the grounds that they couldn’t force her to take action based on their privately compiled lists

What Veritas understands about YouTube is that the process is more or less automatic, essentially suggestions made by the servers based on a calculation of probability and group behavior.

ohrealy-
If some voters feel like an Obama victory is an excuse for such behavior, I’ll join you in sentiment in waving at them as they go. I think it’s rather racist to presuppose that there are going to be riots or anything like that. I know that’s kind of blunt, but that’s the assumption you’re making of inner city Obama voters right there.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 19, 2008 7:18 PM
Comment #267499

No voter fraud has been alleged as of right now - registration fraud, yes; voter fraud, no.

There is a big difference.

If the same person registers 73 times with valid information or if anyone registers with invalid information such as a false name, address or SSN, that is registration fraud. Registration fraud is easily detected.

Who thinks the guy who registered 73 times is going to be able to vote more than once? Who thinks the guy who registered as Mickey Mouse is going to be able to vote at all? If you do, you’re really very gullible.

Some of the people who worked for Acorn are suspected of registration fraud, but (repeating) Acorn is not suspected of registration fraud for submitting possibly fraudulent registration forms the the election authorities.

In order for voter fraud to occur, an invalid registration would have to be accepted, a valid voter ID would have to be issued and the fraudulent voter would have to attempt to vote using the fraudulent credentials. If anyone posting on here has any information showing that actual voter fraud, not registration fraud, has occurred or has been attempted, they have yet to provide it.

I think the Repubs are about to experience a drubbing on the national level of unprecedented proportions and they are merely raising these false allegations of voter fraud as a way of de-legitimizing their incipient Waterloo.

Posted by: EJN at October 19, 2008 7:21 PM
Comment #267502

dbs:

didn’t claim you were personally responsible for it, only that it was there, and in my opinion showed what i considered childish BS. i don’t condone cheap shots, like i said.
i don’t waste energy getting upset over things i have no control over. mc cain wasn’t my pick, but i’m stuck with him. to vote for anyone else in a third party would only help obama, and he’s to far left for me. if he wins thats just the way it is, and being upset over it is just a waste of time.

Fair enough — and no need to question your IQ. But do know what would not be a waste of your energy or time? Speaking out as a morally-upright, intelligent Republican about outrageous and disturbing stuff like:

An Obama Effigy being hung by a Racist McCain-Palin supporter in Ohio.

Or Limbaugh and George Will, and other Republicans insisting that Colin Powell’s endorsement has to be due to the fact that he and Obama happen to be black.

It’s people like yourself dbs, who really do have the power bring your party back all of the respect it once commanded and fully deserved — despite the fact that Democrats and Republicans have always disagreed over all kinds of policies and issues — and even though our elections have always had at least some sort of dart-throwing back and forth. It’s just that the kind of racist stuff we’ve been seeing lately, or the Obama is “an anti-American” who “pals around with terrorists”, or is an “Arab/Muslim Extremist” are the kind of things which go far beyond the pale of decent behavior during our elections.

Finally, let me just add that I know that a lot of this despicable crap doesn’t represent what the vast majority of Republicans really think, and that I’m actually very sorry that it’s falling to the rest of you folks to need to confront it. But the fact is, if my party started being shamed on daily basis in a similar way, the same responsibility would naturally fall on me and others like me, too.

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at October 19, 2008 7:40 PM
Comment #267506

As a rather tired canvasser for Obama, I can unfortunately and very directly relate to a story such as this one. And I just keep waiting for all you decent Republicans out there to push back hard against what has been going on all over America. In fact, as an American First and a Democratic Party Member second, I admit that I am totally counting on those who are American First and Republican Party Members second to come out and strongly denounce these brain-dead idiots who are currently embarrassing, and therefore craping all over, your party.
Honestly, can’t you see that the reputation of the GOP really does depend on your doing so? You can’t just keep acting like these kinds of things aren’t doing deep damage to your party, when clearly they are.

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at October 19, 2008 8:50 PM
Comment #267507

Vandalism, Hate Calls, Threats Hit ACORN Following McCain/Palin Attacks

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at October 19, 2008 9:19 PM
Comment #267509

If Democrats want to maintain that there is no problem here—even while evidence of fraud on the part of ACORN mounts by the day, and more and more investigations are started against them in dozens of states—-they do so at their own peril.

Should the election turn out to be at all close and Obama manages to win by carrying any of these states where ACORN operates, believe you me, a strong narrative is going to emerge about how Obama stole the election. Something that will cast a giant shadow over his election and knee-cap him politically.

Veritas, after numerous recent break-ins, fire-bombings, and physical attacks directed against Republicans during this campaign—and eight years of vicious hatred and vile rhetoric against the administration, the left suddenly wants to talk about “craping (sic)” over a party. And they’re digging pretty deep to do so—when they have to base it on things like debunked lies about people at rallies shouting “Kill him” or some goof-ball racist’s yard display.

As for the claim that Powell endorsed Obama because he’s black, that is simply an opinion which based on some pretty solid evidence—such as the fact that Powell has often emoted about how much he’d like to see a black president.

Personally, I don’t care what Powell’s reasons are. If he wants a Black president and will give his support on that basis, that makes him no different from 95% of the rest of Black Americans. The quote in your link from the Notre Dame professor is pretty telling in that he points out that the only thing Obama and Powell have in common is their race.

We’ve reached a point where any criticism of Obama, or even speculation about he may be getting advantages on the basis of his race, is labeled “racist.” This kind of racial McCarthyism used as a way to protect Obama may work in the short term, but it stokes the fires of racial resentment. Win or lose, we’re already past the point where this kind of race-based politics is going to come back and hurt Obama politically down the road.

Posted by: Loyal Oppostion at October 19, 2008 10:26 PM
Comment #267511

SD

Sorry, I forgot ACORN is non-partisan and is registering both democrats and republicans. How stupid of me to believe BHO was in bed with ACORN to steal an election. I guess looks can be deceiving.

LO

I don’t think there will be as much trouble with BHO winning as there will be if he looses. Some on the left have already promised riots and burning. This is because the, in the tank for BHO, media has already pronounced the winner.

It’s going to be interesting!

Posted by: Oldguy at October 19, 2008 11:10 PM
Comment #267512

Powell himself debunked that by saying if he had supported Obama simply because he was black, he would have done so long ago. He laid out pretty clearly his reasons.

Posted by: womanmarine at October 19, 2008 11:18 PM
Comment #267514

VV,

Must be those Weather Underground terrorists.

Posted by: googlumpugus at October 20, 2008 12:47 AM
Comment #267515

Funny how the “liberal” media has made ACORN into a household name, but almost completely ignored YPM. McCain and the GOP have made a big deal out of ACORN, yet the only one who has been charged with voter registration fraud is from a company hired by the GOP.

Also, if you are given the choice between touch screen computer voting and optical scan ballots, please choose optical scan ballots. Talk about destroying the fabric of our democracy! The GOP is a shredding machine.

Posted by: JayJay at October 20, 2008 12:48 AM
Comment #267516

LO:

If Democrats want to maintain that there is no problem here—even while evidence of fraud on the part of ACORN mounts by the day,

Nonsense. Acorn, in accordance with the law, first reported the problem. The reason they registered their concern that some of the people they had hired were filling out forms with fictional names was because they knew it could damage their organization’s reputation — since they are required by law to turn in every single one of their applications, whether fraudulent or valid.

and more and more investigations are started against them in dozens of states

You mean transparently politically-motivated investigations that we all know are highly questionable due to the fact that the DOJ has been politicized from top to bottom during the Bush administration.
As Ex DOJ Voting Rights Chief Gerry Hebert just had to say about that fact: “It’s Going to Take a Long Time to Cleanse” Department

A former top Department of Justice voting rights official — who once worked with John McCain in defense of the senator’s campaign-finance reform bill — has added his name to the growing chorus that is denouncing the department’s investigation of ACORN as a shameful and inappropriate politicization of Justice along the lines of the US attorney firings.

Speaking to TPMmuckraker, Gerry Hebert described the investigation, word of which was leaked off the record to the Associated Press less than three weeks before the election, as “a continuation of injecting DOJ into what has clearly become a political issue.”

He continued: “That’s really not the proper role for the DOJ, and why their policies counsel otherwise.”

Former US District Attorney David Iglesias who is a Republican that was appointed by Bush in 2001, agrees with Hebert:

“I’m astounded that this issue is being trotted out again,” Iglesias told TPMmuckraker. “Based on what I saw in 2004 and 2006, it’s a scare tactic.” In 2006, Iglesias was fired as U.S. attorney thanks partly to his reluctance to pursue voter-fraud cases as aggressively as DOJ wanted — one of several U.S. attorneys fired for inappropriate political reasons, according to a recently released report by DOJ’s Office of the Inspector General.

Iglesias, who has been the most outspoken of the fired U.S. attorneys, went on to say that the FBI’s investigation seemed designed to inappropriately create a “boogeyman” out of voter fraud.

LO:

Should the election turn out to be at all close

This is what the Neocons are hanging all their hopes on so that their voter caging, and voter purging, and electronic voting machine rigging can bring them another win. Which is exactly why people like myself have been working our asses off for Obama registering voters and canvassing neighborhoods. No matter how much of a drag it can be. Or how frequently we end up dealing with hostile, racist, brain-dead culture warriors for the far-right wing of the GOP.
We volunteers are doing our damnedest to try to overwhelm the type of cheating and disenfranchisement methods your party used in 2000 and 2004.

believe you me, a strong narrative is going to emerge about how Obama stole the election.

That narrative has already begun. As usual, whenever the Neocons accuse Democrats of something, the complete opposite is actually true, and the charge actually applies to themselves.

Something that will cast a giant shadow over his election

I think you should be more worried about the giant shadow that 100,000 people were casting the other day in St. Louis Missouri when they showed up to hear Obama speak at a rally. Seriously, you must think the American people are so damn stupid and gullible if you’re trying to convince anyone that this election is all that close in reality.

and knee-cap him politically.

The only kind of knee-capping most Democrats are worried about is the clear and present potential for violence which your party’s ignorant ‘n’ racist nutter fringe has been parading around of late.

Veritas, after numerous recent break-ins, fire-bombings, and physical attacks directed against Republicans during this campaign

Which actually amount to very few incidents, but which most Democrats were deeply angered by when they heard about.

—and eight years of vicious hatred and vile rhetoric against the administration,

Sorry, but you should never expect an apology for that. Bush/Cheney and their entire Administration had, and still have every bit of that coming to them. Hatred and vile rhetoric is exactly what pathological liars who started an unnecessary illegal war that has killed so many people deserve. Same goes for them cutting birthday cakes with John McCain, and playing guitar, and attending GOP fundraisers, or shoe shopping and taking in Broadway shows, or hiding in ones undisclosed underground bunker, while allowing Americans to simply drop dead in New Orleans and in various parts of the Gulf Coast after Katrina.

the left suddenly wants to talk about “craping (sic)” over a party. And they’re digging pretty deep to do so—when they have to base it on things like debunked lies about people at rallies shouting “Kill him” or some goof-ball racist’s yard display.

As I’m sure I’ve indicated, I’m trying to appeal to the kind of Republicans who are decent intelligent people. The kind of conservative who is naturally concerned about what this parade of ignorance and hatred coming from the nutter fringe of their party might be doing to the reputation of the GOP overall. Sadly, I’ve had no one step forward who is willing to even discuss that topic with me. Well, not yet anyway.

As for the claim that Powell endorsed Obama because he’s black, that is simply an opinion which based on some pretty solid evidence

Since you keep revealing your complete disrespect for Powell, and an overall display of unabashed and shameless racism, I’m just going to assume you’ll be fine with my informing you that I was never trying to open a dialog with Republicans such as yourself.

McCarthyism

Ah yes. Republican-led Communist Witchhunt. Also known as the ‘Red Scare.’ Circa 1942, to approximately 1959. As All-American as Baseball, Hot dogs, Apple Pie, Small Pox-Infected Blankets, and Lynch Mobs.
McCarthyism circa 2008. As All-American as Illegal Pre-emptive War, Wire Tapping of American citizens, Waterboarding and Torture, Haaakey Maaam’s and the Alaskan Secessionist Party. Also See: Rep. Michele Bachmann (R) Minnesota.

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at October 20, 2008 12:54 AM
Comment #267518

Before I head off to sleep, I just thought I’d share a link I received in an e-mail from a friend today: MC Yogi’s A Vote For Hope

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at October 20, 2008 2:21 AM
Comment #267519

LO-
You know, the funny thing is, guidelines are made to where investigations aren’t made this close to the election. But even when they aren’t, even the folks in your highly politicized Justice Department failed to find widespread voter fraud.

I know you’re trying to build up a strong narrative of having this election stolen. But virtually all of the votes are going to be legitimate. That’s what you refuse to face. That’s what you’re trying to refuse to face. Conservatism can’t fail the country, the country can only fail conservatism.

I think you do Powell a disservice, and prove his points in the process. He talked about McCain’s campaign, and his party’s campaign just going beyond the pale, and now you’re going to say that Powell is just doing it because Barack Obama is Black. It’s kind of funny in a non humorous way that you get your dander up about being called prejudiced on race, only to accuse Powell of harboring that prejudices, simply because he chose to support a candidate with similar skin color.

You have supporters displaying monkeys with Obama stickers on them, putting Obama’s face on ten dollar food stamps along with ribs, watermelon, and fried chicken.

And you have the prejudice against Muslims which your side has stoked, and which Powell responded to in such a heartfelt way, with the picture of the Muslim, Arab-American soldier’s grave.

You can talk about racial McCarthyism, but last I checked, yours were the people going after people for their race, for their religion. There’s a difference between sensitivity to an issue and prejudices about it.

And what about real McCarthyism? It’s interesting that yours is the party that had that Congresswoman calling for a media investigation of unamerican activities in Congress. It’s interesting that your topic du jour is socialism, and that such implication has been made by you and other people about the other side.

And what about the nastiness you people have predictably focused Powell’s way? I knew you people would be attacking him and sliming him the moment he made that announcement.

But just so you’re clear, here’s your argument, having ignored all his eloquent, well laid out reasons for his endorsement: Colin Powell endorsed Barack Obama because black people are racists who like to stick together.

But why did Powell wait so long, if that was all that mattered?

Oldguy-
It’s not the looks that are doing most of the deception. Part of the deception is self-deception. You always think you have the explanation for why the media isn’t talking about McCain being ahead. Never mind that they willingly reported the polls when they were in McCain’s favor. You just notice when people aren’t supporting your party’s positive self-image.

Your candidate has, in the polls, lost momentum in many critical states. He could regain them, or the polls might not tell the whole story, but still, there it is. What is the media going to do, sugarcoat it, tell the public it’s meaningless? That’s advocacy. That’s why few people really respect FOXNews as a outlet for journalism.

FOXNews demonstrates what you folks want in a “non-biased” network; Tons of bias in support of you! But that kind of advocacy is what has killed your party. You need to listen to people who will tell you when you’re wrong. You need people who are not more concerned about keeping Republicans in office than making sure that you have good, capable people in those offices. You need people who don’t spin their way out of a crisis, trying to talk people into not seeing your party’s failures, but who instead prevent or face those failures.

The media bias myth has become a crutch, as have the Rovian/Nixonian tactics of vilification and attack politics. You no longer sharpen your knowledge of the facts, your rhetorical excellence, or root yourself in the ground of common consensus. Instead, you center your entire approach around justifying and promoting your central agenda.

Inevitably the real world intrudes on our agendas. Those deal with the real world and change their agendas to do what’s best for the country in fact and not just one’s own people are the ones who will lead best, and look best. Those who refuse to deal with the truth will reap the consequences of their emphasis on unreal philosophy over real problem solving.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 20, 2008 8:01 AM
Comment #267525

SD

“FOXNews demonstrates what you folks want in a “non-biased” network;”

Can you explain why the subscriptions to national newspapers are falling and they are cutting jobs? Can you explain why Fox News has the highest ratings of cable news, and can even compete with the big 3 TV national news? Can you explain why conservative radio talk shows attract 20’s of millions nationwide and liberals can only reach local groups and most of liberal talk show host’s fail.

The reason these things are happening is simply because the American people know the liberal news (which includes most), is in the tank for liberals. Why would the Times write an article attacking Cindy McCain and yet never write an article about BHO’s wife? Why would they try to find dirt on Cindy, through friends of her daughters on Facebook?

This is why the Dems, given the opportunity, will raise again the “Fairness Doctrine” to try to shut down conservative talk. Isn’t this a violation of “freedom of speech”?

Now, these are the facts of the real world.

Posted by: Oldguy at October 20, 2008 9:18 AM
Comment #267527

TV News is now entertainment news.

Prior to the eighties TV News was a loss item.

Fox News does not compete with broadcast entertainment.

Fox and CNN are comparable in ratings.

Papers are losing revenue because their content is available online for free.

Joe sixpack gets his news primarily from TV news. That is hardly a sound standard.

Posted by: googlumpugus at October 20, 2008 9:57 AM
Comment #267529

Oldguy-
I’m sure your explanation, even with sinking political fortunes and Bill-O being defeated by Keith-O, is that Conservative news is attracting people in droves.

Here’s the trick: TV and the Internet. That’s why Newspapers are seeing declining readership, at least in print. But even before that, TV was doing a number on them.

As far as Conservative talk shows go, the highest ratings only have them speaking to a million people or so at a time. It’s another legacy communication device. As for the Fairness Doctrine, all that would do would be to require broadcasters, who use public airwaves, to offer up, at the very least, the opportunity to respond. It might also, horrors of horrors, keep conservative station owners from simply programming wall to wall right-wingers.

Good heavens, you folks might actually have to compete!

As for the media being in the tank, keep telling yourself that. The media loved McCain at the start, neglected all kinds of associations and problems with his record. He did a very good job of being open with the press, giving them barbecues and everything. It’s not for nothing that Obama got his name mispronounced when talking to an AP reporter pool, and McCain got a box of donuts.

The liberal media myth is your excuse for failure, your excuse for failing to appeal to a broader audience. It’s your excuse for people’s lack of appreciation for your radicalism. You have a lot of nerve trying to tell me about the real world, when your party seems sunk in its own blindness to its collapse.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 20, 2008 10:11 AM
Comment #267533

Hi everyone, it is nearly election time in the US. So it’s time for you to send your message to American voters by posting a photo message in the hope of a better world.


Time is running out, and it might be the last chance for you to raise your voice.

Please do not hesitate to post your message or if you did so already, just send a message to your friends to view our page or site.

Take part in making OUR world better, take action now,

Give US a hope

GIVE USA HOPE!

Posted by: giveusahope at October 20, 2008 10:33 AM
Comment #267548

When you have nothing to run on you run against something. mccain/PALIN are relegated to trying to slime their opponent because the American people have concluded that they aren’t buying what they’re selling so their only hope is to try to make what their opponent is selling less palatable than themselves. Part of this strategy is to go after the media because it gives them grounds to discount anything negative that is said about lies and distortions that they are putting out there.

While Obama has run negative ads and said negative things about mccain they are based on his past actions as senator and other things related to policies instead of being personal. He hasn’t even gone after the Keating 5 story, cheating on his first wife, or any crap not related to policy.

The shifting sands of attacks have almost been humorous to watch. As one thing flops they desperately try to cling to another then it flops too and they’re off to the next attack. Obama was called inexperienced and not up to the job then mccain nominated someone so obviously unqualified to any objective observer that it took the air out of that attack. Then they tried to hit Obama on “the surge” and not wanting to “win” in Iraq. When it turns out that not only is “the surge” not the real reason that violence is down and things are on the verge of serious trouble in the near future, but the people on the ground have said that we can’t think of this in the terms of “victory” or “winning.” Then on to pallin’ around with terrorists. They tried to invent a close relationship between Obama and Ayers that wasn’t there and when their false accusations didn’t work they moved on to “he’s a socialist.” After our government headed by his party took a leading role in nationalizing banks and huge corporate bailouts makes that claim stick to the GOP more than the Dems. Oh yeah, I forgot ACORN - another non-story they are trying to trump up into an issue. What’s next? They had better come up with something good in the next 3 or 4 days while mccain is getting upstaged by Colin Powell ‘cause there ain’t much time left to slime their opponent with false, sleazy attacks.

mccain’s campaign has pretty much conceded the popular vote and are hoping for some narrow victory in the electoral college. While this is a fair tactic it is telling that they are conceding that most of the country favors the other guy but they want to win anyway. For a party that had become really good at running general elections with a candidate much worse than their current pick, they have seriously misjudged this one. Now, after mccain’s lifelong commitment to public service, he will be remembered for this dishonorable, failed campaign.

Posted by: tcsned at October 20, 2008 11:34 AM
Comment #267561

I like the line from this report:

“It is more likely that an individual will be struck by lightning than he will impersonate another voter at the polls,” the report said.

Do we need to confront the threats that are rarer than a bolt from the blue, or do we need to end wrongful practices that are disenfranchising tens of thousands of voters?

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 20, 2008 1:38 PM
Comment #267566

This Factcheck article kind of indicates where the problem really lies. Can one make the claim that ACORN is being negligent in overseeing the people it’s paying to get registrations? Yes, but such negligence does not have the full flavor of stealing the election that accusing them of election fraud does.

However, as Factcheck will tell you, just about nobody is showing up on election day to cast votes on these registrations.

The sad thing about this is that the McCain Campaigns charges are as dangerous as they are pathetic. They are dangerous in that they encourage Republican voters, for no factual reason, to dispute the results, to not treat them as legitimate. They are pathetic in that this is all McCain seems to have left to win.

The danger in the McCain Campaign’s approach is that it is ultimately leading towards a rejection of the valid results of our electoral system, and a further retreat of his party from reality.

Will it take 2012 or 2016 for these people to realize just how problematic the Republican’s situation has become, or will it be just one more rationalization after another, with no coming to terms with their predicament?

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 20, 2008 1:55 PM
Comment #267574

Stephen, have you read the Rolling Stone article written by Robert Kennedy Jr. and Greg Palast yet?:
Here’s the link:
Block the Vote
Will the GOP’s campaign to deter new voters and discard Democratic ballots determine the next president?

What we’re facing now appears to be so much worse than what happened to our votes in 2000 and 2004. This is why so many Democratic volunteers feel we have to work harder and reach out to a greater number of people than we’ve ever had to before, in order to win this election.
Personally, I find it has helped to have friends and acquaintances e-mailing me song links like the one I shared above. Kinda keeps me going — despite all the odds that have been systematically engineered against us by our opponents.

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at October 20, 2008 2:49 PM
Comment #267577

This whole ACORN thing is a red herring and a distraction. I think you have to look at motivations/payoffs/opportunities to do the kinds of things that the GOP is accusing the Dems of and visa versa.

Vote fraud - we are dealing with individual people who can at most cast one illegal vote (more if you vote early and often). But what is the possible motivation to do so and who is likely to be the individual casting the fraudulent vote? Obviously, someone who is in favor of one of the candidates and is ineligible to vote because of citizenship or felony record. Not only would someone from one of these groups be more motivated to cast a single vote than to be caught in a parole violation (or whatever the crime is for a felon trying to vote) or deportation, but they would also have to be in targeted areas to make that vote mean something. A bunch of illegal immigrants in California voting for Obama isn’t going to help his election chances at all. So we are looking at illegal immigrants and felons in OH, PA, IN, and other swing states. While there are always a few people who get in to vote when they shouldn’t I don’t think that there are enough of these fraudulent voter registration forms that will get past the registrars that are actual people trying to cast an illegal vote that will make a difference. Nor is there any evidence that people actually trying to commit voter fraud are predominantly Democratic or Republican so there is really no way to know what this small handful of votes will do to the outcome even in a very close race. In addition, this ALCORN thing isn’t about people trying to let illegal voters into the booth to vote it was people gaming the ALCORN for $8/hr by filling out a “kitchen table petition.” The payoff for the individual is limited as is the opportunity for success.

Election fraud - like what the GOP has been accused of in 2000 and 2004. This is about the strategic purging of thousands of legally registered voters to sway the outcome of the election in individually targeted states. This has the more than obvious motive of gaining and maintaining power. What is more motivating than that? This isn’t just a single individual, it is a political party in control of state run elections disenfranchising thousands of voters. The motivation to do this is many times stronger than for an individual to cast an illegal vote. The payoff is huge and the opportunity for success is much higher.

On top of this, the ACORN thing is not about an organized effort to defraud the election as has been claimed. I’m glad that Obama laughed at mccain from trying to say that this has the potential to destroy our democracy because it was laughable to insinuate that. It is simply people gaming their employer by making false registrations with no one to actually show up and vote with that name. I know people are trying to make more of it but there seems to be no evidence of anything more sinister than that.

Posted by: tcsned at October 20, 2008 3:00 PM
Comment #267579

“Election fraud - like what the GOP has been accused of in 2000 and 2004”

Accused? I thought it was a proven fact and that people were sent to jail for it?

Posted by: kctim at October 20, 2008 3:40 PM
Comment #267580

Its been a long hard day so I just skimmed the posts here so someone might have posted this already but here is one thing I noticed ACORN is paying their operatives for each vote — no matter which party YPM “was paid $7 to $12 for every Californian it registered as a member of the GOP.”
This would encourage the operatives to cheat to make money in such a way that would just benefit one side.
Of course you could claim [but not prove] that all acorn operative are Democrats,but the truth is — they are just people trying to put food on their tables so most likely come from both sides of the isle.
— Savage

Posted by: A Savage at October 20, 2008 3:46 PM
Comment #267585

as a side note — after posting that I went to check my email and found this
New Election Day Procedures

Historically, Election Day in the U.S. is always the first Tuesday, following the first Monday, of November. That date would be Tuesday, November 4 in the year 2008. But with the voter turnout expected to be historically high, given the nature of this Presidential election, apparently there is a change taking place in this year’s procedure.

Voting will take place over two days instead of just one. Everyone that appears at the polls Tuesday, November 4, 2008, will only be allowed to vote for Republican Party candidates. If you want to vote for a Democratic Party candidate, or a split party ticket, you are to appear at the polls on Wednesday, November 5, 2008. This is to eliminate long lines and delays in voting.

For some reason this procedural change has not been covered very well so far by the media. But I’m sure it will get more coverage as we get closer to Election Day(s). So that all of our votes can count, please pass this along to everyone that you think may want to vote for any Democratic Party candidates, including Barack Obama.

See you at the polls!
Now I know its false — you know its false — but think of the low info people that might believe it.
just more normal [for them] trash from the right.
— Savage

Posted by: A Savage at October 20, 2008 4:05 PM
Comment #267586

Palast, while sometimes stringing together disparate things to make one + one = three, has been on top of this issue since 1999.

He’s a journalist I listen to, even if with a grain of salt.

Posted by: googlumpugus at October 20, 2008 4:17 PM
Comment #267610

S.D., “I think it’s rather racist to presuppose that there are going to be riots or anything like that. I know that’s kind of blunt, but that’s the assumption you’re making of inner city Obama voters right there.”

There is a level of confusion that I see so often in this blog that goes beyond commenting, because so few people here seem to have very much contact with the variety of persons that would fit under this label of “inner city” or even black. The local high school (7-12th grade) which BHO’s children would be attending based on where they live, is called Kenwood Academy. This was built in the 60s for the specific purpose of creating a newer more integrated school in an historic neighborhood. Any substantial integration did not last for very long, because of gang activity, with “brotherhoods”, black nationalistic groups, fake muslims, involved in street crime and drugs, and controlled by someone in prison, who was in contact with Qaddafi years ago to promote terrorism here long before anyone ever heard of OBL:

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/pub/gangs/chicago.html

Are you still bragging about voter registrations? Changed the talking points? Not defending Ayres anymore?

Soros and MoveOn are supposed to be distributing “walking around” money to the tune of $38 million for the election. Colleagues at the U of C considered BHO to be a socialist, and Ayres goes well beyond that.

Jackie Mason on Ayres, Acorn, etc:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZWuvYhNklY

Colin Powell lost all standing after playing Adlai at the UN. Fool him once, shame on him.

Posted by: ohrealy at October 20, 2008 7:16 PM
Comment #267614

>Now, who signed these 2 million voters up, was it non-partisan ACORN or BHO’s people?

Judging from some of the things going on around the country, I think voter registration should be challenged.
Posted by: Oldguy at October 19, 2008 02:26 PM

Old,

There were not two million new registered voters. Those the REPUBLICAN Secretary of State asked SSA for verification of were new AND old voters, and over ninety percent registered as Democrat…ACORN does not operate in Georgia.

Posted by: Marysdude at October 20, 2008 7:27 PM
Comment #267620

Judging from some of the things going on around the country, I think voter registration should be challenged.
Posted by: Oldguy at October 19, 2008 02:26 PM

Be careful what you ask for — you do understand that if 1 thing on your own registration is wrong you can be booted from the voter roles just as your wishing on others? It happened to a election official in one state though I can not recall where I read it.

By the way Jim - I read awhile ago that “ACORN has produced election officials to confirm that the “fraudulent” voters cited by the GOP were in fact valid. “
but since the source is a blog/opinion unlike some I will not claim it as “true fact”
When you post something that’s false as fact — its similar to a rape accusation, the claim sticks around forever, even if the young lady retracts every word of it.
__ Savage

Posted by: A Savage at October 20, 2008 8:16 PM
Comment #267641


McCain Employing GOP Operative Accused Of Voter Registration Fraud

Posted by: womanmarine at October 20, 2008 11:00 PM
Comment #267646

A Savage & Marysdude

This may be hard to believe, but my wife and I did not have trouble registering to vote, many years ago and have NEVER been turned away. And even though we have moved from punch cards to electronic voting, we have been able to vote with no problems.

I guess it is the low-income minorities who are having all the trouble. I have found that people who have no interest in registering to vote, will still have no interest in voting even if someone else registers for them.

By the way, are we still watching the polls? When BHO is ahead, the polls count and when he is trailing, the polls don’t mean anything. The polls are showing McCain catching up with BHO and with only two weeks to go.

Incumbent congressman Mahoney is down by 27 points in FL and his wife sued for divorce. Murtha is in trouble in PA, he is loosing in the polls and that is not including his latest gaff of calling western PA citizens “rednecks”.

Biden is helping McCain by telling Americans they will be way down in the polls by next year if BHO wins. What is Biden talking about? Latest releases show Sarah Palin has been more accessable to the News Media than any of the other 3 candidates, in the past month.

Posted by: Oldguy at October 20, 2008 11:38 PM
Comment #267649

Not all problems in the voter registration systems are serious…I live in Georgia, and recently relocated within the same county. I went on-line to the county web site to change my address on my voter registration. One of the requirements to make that happen was that I had to officially change my address with the USPS.

I haven’t done that with the USPS for several moves now, because I found out the Postal Service sells your move information to business bidders and you begin immediately to receive more junk mail than your mail box will hold.

I went down to the registration office and made the change on my form without having to give notice to USPS…it’s a crazy world we live in…and if I had been a little less interested, or could not have driven down town, I might have lost my vote…hmmm…I wonder how many folks won’t vote in this election just because of funny stuff like that…

Posted by: Marysdude at October 20, 2008 11:52 PM
Comment #267658

Olbermann Special Comment on the GOP’s “Real America” and the disgusting Racism and McCarthyism we’ve seen of late.

Womanmarine, glad you already put up that link since I was planning to post that info myself.
Oh, how revolting the McCain-Palin campaign has become. We’re talking zero integrity, wisdom and judgment here. Utterly lacking in honor and decency. And all delivered without a trace of shame or remorse.
Never before have we seen a GOP presidential campaign sink so far down over their heads into the slime bucket.
I suspect McCain must be paying Rove and Company an assload of overtime hours.

As the last days of this election approach, the heavy irony of McCain-Palin using the slogan “Country First” becomes more and more unbelievable. The plain truth is, The United States of America deserves so much better than this from people who want to preside over our nation!

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at October 21, 2008 1:26 AM
Comment #267661

I’m sure we all know that Obama is suspending his appearances as he goes to Hawaii to be with his gravely ill grandmother.
How many of us are wondering whether this will open the door to a barage of more intense BS to start flying, or could we possibly see the McCain camp show some human emotion??
Okay……never mind…..I’m better now.

Posted by: janedoe at October 21, 2008 2:35 AM
Comment #267668

janedoe,

A powerful link…Puts a lot in perspective.

Posted by: Marysdude at October 21, 2008 6:40 AM
Comment #267681

Marysdude:

“Not all problems in the voter registration systems are serious…I live in Georgia, and recently relocated within the same county. “

Thank God you live in a state where the Republican Party is in control of voting. Just think how bad it would be if you lived in Ohio, where the democratic secretary of state, works with those from ACORN to encourage voter fraud.

I have been listening to those on the left defend the BHO campaign, the Democratic Party, and ACORN for weeks now. Are these groups working together to defraud America? I made the statement, a couple weeks ago, that eventually the truth would come out. Well, it turns out that ACORN is not only committing voter fraud, but was also responsible for the Freddie and Fannie fiasco, that actually brought about our current financial crisis.

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/06/20/blowing-the-whistle-on-acorn/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywdRw20JlKA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AloeLTgO88w

http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2008/10/11/maxine-waters-caught-lying-about-fannie-mae-ties-real-time


It seems that the left bloggers on this site are again the last to learn. Or are they still in complete denial of the situation?

Posted by: Oldguy at October 21, 2008 9:25 AM
Comment #267684

This one is pretty good…dated yesterday afternoon…oh, well…

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/rnc_on_new_mexico_voter_fraud.php

Posted by: Marysdude at October 21, 2008 10:03 AM
Comment #267688

I think there is a difference in voting in a dem primary and a presidential election. You send us to a left wing blog and it gives no other information, other than a number of fraud votes in a primary. Under Rush Limbaugh’s “Operation Chaos” there were republicans all over the country voting in the dem primaries. Is this post talking about fraud because people crossed party lines to vote in a primary?

As I posted above, whatever you say, cannot compare to what ACORN and the BHO campaign has tried to do.

Posted by: Oldguy at October 21, 2008 10:23 AM
Comment #267701

Horrible and Despicable News of the Day:
The carcass of a black bear that had been shot in the head was found wrapped in Barack Obama campaign signs on a North Carolina campus on Monday.

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at October 21, 2008 11:21 AM
Comment #267707

VV,

As ugly as this scene seems on the surface, my wife (the Republican) saw the story, turned to me and asked if it was a slam on our mighty hunter veep candidate…I, of course denied it, but from a Republican point of view, I can see why they might think the other way.

My first flash was…what a bunch of redneck, bigoted, a**holes…

Her first reaction was…will they never quit picking on Palin…

And it might just turn out to be a bunch of idiot college kids on a vandal run…for pledging or sumpin’

Posted by: Marysdude at October 21, 2008 11:39 AM
Comment #267714

Marysdude:

My first flash was…what a bunch of redneck, bigoted, a**holes…

Mine was… What a redneck, bigoted assh*le domestic terrorist callously killing an animal in order to make a death threat on Obama.

Her first reaction was…will they never quit picking on Palin…

That’s illogical. If this was intended to discredit and/or terrorize Palin, they wouldn’t have covered the animal that was shot with Obama-Biden signs. They’d have covered it with McCain-Palin signs, or an Alaskan flag, or something that had to do with her.

And it might just turn out to be a bunch of idiot college kids on a vandal run…for pledging or sumpin’

But so what if it does? It’s still totally despicable and clearly implies a threat, don’t you think? Btw, all an assassin needs is a gun and a desire to kill someone. They don’t have to be fully adult in order to go out and perpetrate a heinous crime. Take the Columbine teen killers, or that nutbag college-aged kid who killed all those people at Virginia Tech, for example.

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at October 21, 2008 12:07 PM
Comment #267718

ohrealy-
I’ve had my share, actually. The real question is what happens when folks like you polarize these racial debates. You think that position ever really achieves its objective? Has thirty or forty years of reaction against inner city blacks led to a better situation or a worse one?

Compare then to now, then tell me. Folks like you insist on punishing the poor for their bad attitudes and laziness, put those damn welfare queens in their place. And what has that done? Nothing! An unforgiving attitude towards the poor is a naive approach, given human nature. Nobody likes to be laid under suspicion on a 24/7 basis, treated like a screw-up. Not everybody who is poor is poor because of their own mistakes, or even the sins of their fathers.

There will be many who see a black man in the White House, and seeing this will drive them to further excel. They will test barriers that they may have been reluctant to face before, and they will compete with those who long held sway over things. In competing, they will make both themselves and their competitors better. No more resting on your laurels.

I know you identify Barack Obama with black radicalism, but my impression, after reading Dreams From My Father, is that he found the situation frustrating and troublesome.

I don’t think the situation was made better by the reactionary White Flight. The biggest barrier to integration was the failure on both sides to lay down grievances.

I still will brag about voter registration, because for every bogus one, there a thousand, ten thousand real ones. The primaries weren’t a mirage, mister. ACORN’s being given a raw deal for its registrations when it should be given criticism for its sloppy supervision. They wouldn’t be getting in this kind of trouble if they just kept a closer eye on these people.

As for Ayers? What Ayers did decades ago is terrible, reprehensible. Nothing justifies it. But his life moved a considerable distance from those days when Obama first met him, and I doubt it was a subject people just spontaneously brought up, or would know to bring up so that Obama could know to back away from him with his fingers held together as a cross.

As for Jackie Mason, Yeah, right. On the authority of a borscht-belt comedian, I’m supposed to believe all this crap I don’t buy from serious people.

As for Socialism? Correct me if I’m wrong, but you support Cynthia McKinney, The Green Party candidate. If you’re going to use that socialist line, aren’t you playing to prejudices that would work against her? Or do you care about nothing besides seeing Barack Obama defeated?

Oldguy-
I’ll believe the stuff about Murtha when I see it. Mahoney is getting thrown under the bus by Democrats in general, even on DKos. We’re not like the Republicans, who think they can out-talk a real scandal. The Polls show McCain inching up, but they also show Obama retaining his high numbers, so it’s not that Obama’s really losing supporters to him.

Uh, should I also mention that the national tracking polls are fairly irrelevant? What is relevant is Obama gaining commanding leads in most of the swing states, such that McCain, to get close to winning, must win every marginal state, plus some of the ones that Obama’s got big leads in. It’s the leads in the states that matters, as Reagan’s 1980 victory should demonstrate: He had a landslide electoral college victory, with only a fifty percent popular vote. Just matters where that fifty percent is.

On the subject of ACORN?

Voter Fraud, that is, the walking into a voting booth having counterfeited everything and then voting, has nothing to do with what happened at ACORN. Mickey Mouse could not show up and vote. Duplicate registrations would be thrown out. And for anything to really come of it, you’d have to get an army of people to risk felonies over registrations which ACORN already flagged as suspicious!

Should I beat you over the head with more facts as to why this whole “voter fraud” accusation is groundless? I know you’re smart enough to distinguish between a false registration and a false vote. I know you’re smart enough to appreciate the fact that even the zealous prosecutors of the Bush Administration couldn’t find a lot of people to convict for casting fraudulent votes.

But maybe this isn’t about your intelligence. Maybe this is about a nice, convenient just-so story that tells you that you didn’t lose, you were cheated. Maybe it’s easier to insist on these spurious charges than confronting a world that has moved on in dissatisfaction from your politics.

Maybe it’s just easier to buy into every new straw man that the GOP provides you to tear into, than to admit that the party you’ve followed has become as useless as teats on a boar to most Americans.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 21, 2008 12:26 PM
Comment #267746

Stephen, nicely done. As usual.

Maybe it’s just easier to buy into every new straw man that the GOP provides you to tear into, than to admit that the party you’ve followed has become as useless as teats on a boar to most Americans.

Ha! I love this. Or teats on a bore as the case may be…

Here’s a great video link:
Blood on the Floor at Morning Joe
Watch Zbigniew Brzezinski succinctly sum up why the nation needs to elect Obama, and why electing McCain would be an absolute disaster.

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at October 21, 2008 1:59 PM
Comment #267753

> Her first reaction was…will they never quit picking on Palin…

That’s illogical. If this was intended to discredit and/or terrorize Palin, they wouldn’t have covered the animal that was shot with Obama-Biden signs. They’d have covered it with McCain-Palin signs, or an Alaskan flag, or something that had to do with her.

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at October 21, 2008 12:07 PM

VV,

It’s not illogical to her…she thinks maybe the signs over the body indicate someone’s desire to show Obama’s superiority.

Just saying there are at least two fields of thought. I’m sure we are right, but otherwise reasonable people (at least one) might see it the other way. At least it may not be a cut and dried political statement.

As horrendous as killing a bear and wasting the meat is, it may just be a random act of stupid violence. Bark shooters do these types of things all the time…I use the term ‘barkshooters’ to describe those who go to the woods to protest the government or taxation, spout religious drivel, and shoot the bark off trees as a pastime. The folks at Ruby Ridge, Waco, Jim Jones Kool-ade drinkers, etc. They are mostly harmless unless you trip into one of their marijuana plantations.

Posted by: Marysdude at October 21, 2008 2:30 PM
Comment #267766

Dude:

It’s not illogical to her…she thinks maybe the signs over the body indicate someone’s desire to show Obama’s superiority.

Sorry, but that still doesn’t make any sense. To claim Obama’s superiority in the form of a dead animal? There is no message of superiority in death. No, as the article says:

When the officers found the bear carcass, they said it was covered with two campaign signs that had been taped together. A campus police officer also said that some signs had had also been used to fabricate a “hat” that was left with the bear.

This freak actually took the trouble, after killing that bear and then dragging it to a place they knew that everyone would see it, to basically clothe it as Obama. That’s a pretty damn unambiguous message, in my view.

As horrendous as killing a bear and wasting the meat is, it may just be a random act of stupid violence.

Yeah, it may be — or it may not. To me it all seems rather elaborate — enough to make me worry. And of course, that was the whole point, wasn’t it? Death threats, whether serious or not, are always terrorist by design.

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at October 21, 2008 3:04 PM
Comment #267772

> It’s not illogical to her…she thinks maybe the signs over the body indicate someone’s desire to show Obama’s superiority.

Sorry, but that still doesn’t make any sense. To claim Obama’s superiority in the form of a dead animal? There is no message of superiority in death. No, as the article says:

VV,

She thinks they couldn’t find a moose, so they shot a bear. That’s North Carolina for you…

Posted by: Marysdude at October 21, 2008 3:43 PM
Comment #267776

VV, dude, while I would agree more strongly with VV’s interpretation of the bear incident, I can also understand how “Momma” arrives at hers. Either way, it is still very scary, and shouldn’t just be poo-pooed off as just kids looking for some attention. It that were even the reality, than those kids are sick and need help!
I also have a true fear for Obama, even if he shouldn’t succeed in his election. He has been seen as a threat to the way of life many have come to revere and want to perpetuate. It both sickens and saddens me that human beings can be so callous, vicious and hateful, and still be ignorant of the fact that they are all those things.
And VV….that was a great clip from “Morning Joe” !

Posted by: janedoe at October 21, 2008 3:54 PM
Comment #267787

>The Republican Party is atomizing, and each faction must participate in Project BLAME. The neocons may want to blame the theocons. The economic conservatives will likely blame the big spenders. The conflagration will be so multi-dimensional we’ll need a program to sort out the players. They will need to answer fundamental questions: What does it mean to be a Republican? Do Republicans support laissez-faire or nationalized banking? Do Republicans support a balanced budget or half-trillion-dollar deficits? Do Republicans want a “humble foreign policy” like George W. Bush, or preventive war against countries that pose no threat, like, umm, George W. Bush? Are Republicans the party of limited government or a vast Medicare prescription drug benefit? Are they wary of Big Brother or eager to expand warrantless wiretaps? Do they support Christian values or torture? Are they the party that believes that cutting-edge technology can shoot a missile out of the sky or the party that believes humans and dinosaurs walked the earth simultaneously?

I copied this from the link here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-carville-and-paul-begala/let-the-blame-game-begin_b_136223.html

And liked it so much I couldn’t resist copying it to here…

Yeah, You two are right, I was weak as usual where the Dude’s Boss is concerned…

Posted by: Marysdude at October 21, 2008 4:20 PM
Comment #267789

naaaa dude…not weak, just fair.
Good link, and I love Carville. Talk about complete opposites being compatible…..I don’t think I could live with Mary Maitlan (sp?) for 10 minutes….

Posted by: janedoe at October 21, 2008 4:33 PM
Comment #267791

>I don’t think I could live with Mary Maitlan (sp?) for 10 minutes….
Posted by: janedoe at October 21, 2008 04:33 PM

janedoe,

It’s okay…you likely couldn’t live with Carville either…I sure as hell couldn’t…;)

Posted by: Marysdude at October 21, 2008 4:48 PM
Comment #267812

Dude:

She thinks they couldn’t find a moose, so they shot a bear.

Okay, I get it now. Well, sort of. So your wife immediately assumed that Palin was being represented by the dead bear (because they couldn’t kill a moose), and that the Obama “clothes” and “hat” that nut dressed it up in afterward was supposed to be a symbolic representation of his superiority over her?
Hmmm…
Sorry, but I’m afraid I still think that’s some really convoluted logic there, Dude. I don’t think this message was meant to be so cryptically symbolic, nor do I think it was left by someone in possession of the kind of complex thought process that would take. I think leaving a black bear that was shot in the head and dressed up in Obama “clothes” was meant to be a totally straightforward death threat from a violent and clearly disturbed redneck idiot.

That’s North Carolina for you…

My sister and her family moved to NC about six years ago. They’re just outside of Hickory. It’s a very pretty area, but chock full of hardcore Christian conservatives. With the steady closures of all the furniture factories there (now made in China), it has become increasingly economically depressed. (Not that it was ever all that prosperous to begin with.)
It’s just the kind of place where people aren’t at all likely to want to give their vote to Obama, but where they are sure to do far better under his leadership than they have been doing under the Republicans.

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at October 21, 2008 6:59 PM
Comment #267813

VV,

My wife was born on a tobacco cart, going across a field in Franklin County, North Carolina. She’s pretty much aware of the political temperature there, and I was in the Marine Corps there for a total of five and a half years (minus some float time), and can attest to that political temperature. Many things could have caused that bear to end up the way it did…you are probably right…I was just pointing out that there were some reasonable people who might interpret it otherwise. Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, I’ll back off…

Posted by: Marysdude at October 21, 2008 7:33 PM
Comment #267994

Stephen,

You said,

In this country, we don’t simply go looking places for crimes to turn up. This is not a police state where it is the authorities business to constantly be looking in ours to root out criminal behavior. The government must be kept at arm’s length until such point as it’s proved an actual crime has been committed.

Well said and hear, hear. I also couldn’t agree more with this,

The sad thing about this is that the McCain Campaigns charges are as dangerous as they are pathetic. They are dangerous in that they encourage Republican voters, for no factual reason, to dispute the results, to not treat them as legitimate. They are pathetic in that this is all McCain seems to have left to win.

However, I don’t recall you rising to defend the Bush election in Ohio in 2004 from the crackpots that at that time were charging voter fraud either. I did do a search though and you were mum on the issue based on my small search of four articles written in the blue column on the subject.

The problem with elections is that they are inherently statistical events and when they are close like the last two have been, they live inside the margin of error, and the crackpots get to rule the debate. Thankfully, the electoral college protects us from this happening more often.

The Republican Party is atomizing, and each faction must participate in Project BLAME. The neocons may want to blame the theocons. The economic conservatives will likely blame the big spenders. The conflagration will be so multi-dimensional we’ll need a program to sort out the players. They will need to answer fundamental questions: What does it mean to be a Republican? Do Republicans support laissez-faire or nationalized banking? Do Republicans support a balanced budget or half-trillion-dollar deficits? Do Republicans want a “humble foreign policy” like George W. Bush, or preventive war against countries that pose no threat, like, umm, George W. Bush? Are Republicans the party of limited government or a vast Medicare prescription drug benefit? Are they wary of Big Brother or eager to expand warrantless wiretaps? Do they support Christian values or torture? Are they the party that believes that cutting-edge technology can shoot a missile out of the sky or the party that believes humans and dinosaurs walked the earth simultaneously?

Mary’s,

I agree with this. I think that the election of Obama will be a landslide, and I think that it will be healthy for the Republicans in the same way that the ‘94 and ‘00 elections were ultimately healthy for Democrats. It allowed them to refresh and reprioritize, something the Republicans need to do.

Stephen,

You said,

Compare then to now, then tell me. Folks like you insist on punishing the poor for their bad attitudes and laziness, put those damn welfare queens in their place. And what has that done? Nothing! An unforgiving attitude towards the poor is a naive approach, given human nature. Nobody likes to be laid under suspicion on a 24/7 basis, treated like a screw-up. Not everybody who is poor is poor because of their own mistakes, or even the sins of their fathers.

Stephen,

I think that this is as a big a strawman argument as the socialist argument that Republicans are putting forth. Republican’s do not want the situation to remain the same in the inner cities. The inner cities rise can actually pointed to in large degree to the failed policies of LBJ most specifically the housing projects that created disincentives against mixed income development. This in turned created situations where inner cities were essentially isolated from the larger economy. In turn, an enclave economy developed that was driven largely via government assistance checks. Youth had no incentive to get an education because jobs were not to be found. Other problems developed and the cycle magnified with drug use (& more importantly sales becoming an economic cornerstone) and teen pregnancy sky-rocketing. Lawlessness in certain areas was a by-product.

To castigating Republicans for seeing this plight and questioning policies that led to it is so 1980’s. Clinton did away with this in the 90’s by actually buying into the Republican analysis and deciding to “end welfare as you know it.” Improvements were actually made in the next two decades to roll-back many of the problems caused by bad policy in the decade two previous.

You can continue to try to play the morality card on this, but it doesn’t fly. Are there Republicans that pull out the inner city problems as a proxy for race, absolutely. However, there are Democrats that pull out the country club card as a proxy for class. neither is a productive argument. If we want to truly help reinvigorate the inner cities, we need to admit that there are problems there that were actually exacerbated by bad policy with good intentions and look to other methods that include solutions broader than government only. Democratic (and probaly some Republican) mayors across the country recognize this and are working with broad coalitions of industry and non-profits to try to fix them. To try to solve this with government alone or even as the checkbook leader is to repeat our history having not learned from it.

Posted by: Rob at October 23, 2008 12:37 AM
Comment #268019

> Democratic (and probaly some Republican) mayors across the country recognize this and are working with broad coalitions of industry and non-profits to try to fix them. To try to solve this with government alone or even as the checkbook leader is to repeat our history having not learned from it.
Posted by: Rob at October 23, 2008 12:37 AM

If we had had the foresight to see the problems coming, we would still have opted for the way things spun out…it is in our nature to see the color of clouds in the tint we choose. We chose the wrong color and ended up with a requirement for LBJ and others to act. Had we been capable of positive acts beforehand, none of the would have been necessary. We should not have to be force-fed morality…but conservatives make it necessary, and many times our actions to correct that comes too late, as in the case of JBJ’s New Society. Okay mistakes were made, but perhaps the pendulum is about to swing in the right way this time…

Posted by: Marysdude at October 23, 2008 10:04 AM
Comment #268249

S.D., “what happens when folks like you polarize these racial debates.” You’re the one doing that by calling anyone who didn’t vote for your guy racist, or acccusing them of blasphemies against Obamus Augustus, the high one, our accidental senator, the Obamonad of the Obamahabarata. Security for the victory celebration for BHO in Grant Park is a political football here right now. I thought the Pritzker Pavilion in Millenium park should have been used, or even Ravinia, as being more appopriate to his original shareholders.

“inner city blacks” is an obsolete terminology. In the inner city we have redevelopment. There are problematic neighborhoods everywhere, including the suburbs. Two people were just found murdered here in a house belonging to Jennifer Hudson’s mother, closer to BHO’s residence than Trinity UCC, but in a neighborhood where you could probably get a house for free, if you were willing to take it off somebody’s hands, or pay the back taxes before the bulldozers knocked it down to prevent it from becoming a hangout for the local worthless sacks of dope and dog food. If you think that’s “racist”, then you have never had enough contact with enough variety of persons to be able to judge what is “racist”. Like I said a while ago, the only races that interest me have jockeys on horses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2k-LG7otG4

“punishing the poor for their bad attitudes and laziness”, and “Not everybody who is poor is poor because of their own mistakes, or even the sins of their fathers.” I don’t even know WTF you are talking about here. In the real world, poor people work.

“drive them to further excel..blah blah blah,” If your guy becomes POTUS, no more affirmative action, right? Right?

‘held sway”? Where do you get these terminologies from?

“The biggest barrier to integration was the failure on both sides to lay down grievances.”. and they still haven’t been laid down by individuals who have a vested interest in rehearsing old grievances.

“ACORN’s being given a raw deal for its registrations”. ITA, it’s the BHO campaign that’s the problem. My suspicion is that Michelle has more to do with this problem than her husband.

‘Ayers..his life moved a considerable distance from those days when Obama first met him, and I doubt it was a subject people just spontaneously brought up, or would know to bring up so that Obama could know to back away from him with his fingers held together as a cross.” You are entirely wrong here. Ayers isn’t ashamed of his past, and doesn’t hide it any more than he hides the Che Guevara poster in his office, although he seems to be in seclusion currently. FYI, he is, IMO, an even more suspicious person than most people think. His wife is Bernadine Dorn! They all knew eachother through Sidley Austin in the Harold Washington days. You don’t know what you are talking about here. Do yourself a favor, and stop defending the connection to Ayers.

“As for Jackie Mason, “, I included him as an example of how very different people have all come to the same conclusion, that BHO is a liar of Nixonian proportions. Maybe you would prefer Pastor David Mannning: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doChINcDTJU

“Cynthia McKinney, The Green Party candidate.” understands her chances and purposes in this election. Since you have previously shown yourself to be absolutely clueless about her, I don’t know why you would bring her up. I support the Green Party, as being closest to my views, in spite of their position on Israel, and her detours on Sean Bell and 9/11. Green is Good. Green Works. CMcK is an honest person, not an egomaniac liar posing for a portrait on the coins.

I’m glad to see that BHO’s grandmother lives a little better than his Kenyonian relations. They should have come here to run in the marathon 2 weeks ago.

Posted by: ohrealy at October 24, 2008 9:36 PM
Comment #268403

This came from the site linked to below. I read through it and did not notice that his Kenyan roots to be so horrible…what in the world are you talking about?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/26/barackobama-uselections2008

Chicago 1980s: Auma Obama

Obama’s Kenyan half-sister, who first met Barack in the Eighties. Now works in children’s services in Reading, UK.

We used to see photos of Barack as he was growing up in America. My father always talked about him, that Barack would come home to Kenya some day.

He would say to us: ‘You’ve got to write to your brother Barry’ and obviously as a child you think: ‘Oh yeah, OK, all right’, but you’re not really that fussed, so I didn’t make any contact.

It was actually Barack who contacted me first, after the death of our father. I was in Germany, studying in Heidelberg, and he wrote to me. He has the same name and handwriting as our father so when I looked at the back of the letter I had this shiver go up my spine. We corresponded for a while and then I went over to the US to see a friend. It was the mid-Eighties. I had decided to visit Barack as his guest in Chicago.

I was nervous. I was very close to my dad and Barack was a piece of him that I hadn’t known. What if we did not get along? Well, I wasn’t disappointed. We just got into the car, his little car, and started talking and never stopped. It was a very intense 10 days together.

Barack was a community organiser. He was just a small person, a nobody, but he had the same intensity he has today. He was disturbed by the status quo and was working at the grassroots to see what was going wrong. I was very active in political awareness work in Germany and I saw that he had the same energy and passion to make a difference and to change people’s lives.

For me it was: ‘Wow, this is like Christmas’, where you get this huge, big present of somebody who actually understands what you are saying, where you’re coming from.

Later, I moved back home for a year to work as a tutorial fellow at the University in Nairobi. Barack visited Kenya for the first time. I picked him up in my Beetle. He did not have any of these hang-ups, you know: ‘Oh there are mosquitoes.’ He came and just was. It made it so easy. We spent a lot of time discussing and explaining things.

I don’t know if it was strange for Barack to come here. The thing is it wasn’t strange for the family. Nobody but me had met Barry but everybody knew him from our father. We don’t dramatise family in Kenya and people weren’t fazed by him at all, although they did find some things interesting. For my grandmother, it was his accent and the fact that he could not speak Luo.

And all the kids would come and compare their skin colour to Barack’s. People had many questions for him and Barack definitely had many questions for them. There was never a moment of silence or embarrassed awkwardness.

It wasn’t all nice. Sometimes, he wanted to see relatives I didn’t really get along with and he’d be like: ‘It’s my right and I need to see them and I’m not going alone and you’re coming with me’.

To take a break, we went to the coast. Coming back (from Mombasa to Nairobi) we travelled by bus. The driver was going so fast and I was so, so scared. Barack took it all in his stride. I, the Kenyan who should have been used to it, was furious at the driver. But Barack was just like: ‘OK, this is the adventure that it is.’ He came with this big baggage of tolerance and relaxedness and the ability to just absorb.

When I went to his wedding [in the US, in 1992] I could see that people were very impressed with him. People listened to him. I could see that a lot of them were people of prominence and thinkers in the community.

Today, I still see the same Barack I first met. At home, he’s the same, very normal person.

Politically, he’s now a big shot, but there’s an expression that says a big shot is a small shot who never stopped shooting. He was shooting back then - not in the sense the Republicans would use it, with a rifle - but in that he was always working, and people came on board and slowly more and more people understood that what this guy is trying to do is going to make a difference to America and the American people.

Sometimes, I’m awed by what he has achieved. I’m very, very proud of him. I have to keep reminding myself: ‘Oh he’s just my little brother’ just to bring it back to reality and make sure that I don’t get too excited about who I am because of what he’s done.

Posted by: Marysdude at October 26, 2008 3:44 PM
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