Democrats & Liberals Archives

ACORN Republican Voter Registration Fraud

ACORN is a liberal leaning community organizing company whose employees are implicated in voter registration fraud. Bad news for us Dems. Can’t trust a Dem as far as you can throw em. Voter fraud undermines the Constitution and the very foundations of democracy…

Looks bad for the Dems... Really??? Well??? Sort of...

First, lets set the record straight, Obama has no connection to ACORN. He got hired as a lawyer to represent them in a lawsuit and did a good job.

I am becoming a real estate agent. If I get hired as a buyer's agent and help some jerk buy a house next door to you, don't blame me because he is a jerk. I don't like him either. I am just obeying the law and doing my job. The jerk should live out in the country away from people, but it is against the law for me to "steer" him. He has a right to live anywhere he wants. I am sorry the jerk chose a house next door to you, but it is not my fault - but I agree he is a jerk...

ACORN is a jerk too.

The operative words above are: company and employees. Remember now, it is the Repubs who are pro-business... Remember now, it is the Repubs who are pro-private enterprise... Remember now, it is the Repubs who are pro-deregulation... Remember now, it is the Repubs who want to let the free market fix everything... There is no market more free than a black market in voter registration - completely lawless - observing no regulations - buying voter registrations for profit... Repubs should love this. According to their world view, this should fix all problems in the American political process. ACORN is a profit making company. Its employees work for money. None of these fraudulently registered folks are actually going to vote. It is not about getting them to vote. It is about making money. Just get someone to fraudulently fill out a voter registration application in a poor neighborhood, and make your paycheck. It is a great job, especially since about the only other jobs available in these neighborhoods are joining the military and dying for your country, or selling drugs and killing yourself and others that way, or selling your body and killing yourself and others that way. Filling out fraudulent applications is a great job in this "brave new" "free market" that the Repubs have created - nobody has to die. Of course, ACORN does get some legitimate registrations. Voter registration should only be done by non-profit volunteers but that would not be a free market.

See ACORN is: not tax exempt. Organizations that are not non-profit are profit making companies.

This is just one more small example of the failure of Republican ideology. Markets should be regulated for the benefit of the people. There should be no free markets in voter registration. Contrary to McCain's past positions, markets in sub-prime mortgage securities should be regulated and strictly controlled. There should be no free markets in human rights, (like health care).

See: Barack Obama Never Organized with ACORN

See: Market Principals and Healthcare.

See: Desperate Measures by Desperate Republicans

See: Barack Obama does not take advice from Fannie Mae executives

See: See: Know your rights: campaign gear and the polls

See: The Truth about Barack Obama and his Bracelet Honoring a Fallen Soldier

See:The NRA uses deceptive claims to attack Barack Obama

See: Reckless accusations of infanticide

See: Scamming the faithful

See: Next Generation Swift Boaters

See: The Truth About Barack’s Visits to Overseas Troops

See: The Truth About Barack’s Faith

See: The Truth About a Non-Existent Michelle Tape

See: The Truth About Barack Obama and Taxes

See: The Truth About Michelle Obama’s American Pride

See: The Truth About Barack’s Love for Flag and Country

See: The Truth About the Obama Campaign Plane

See: The Truth About Barack’s Birth Certificate


Posted by Ray Guest at October 9, 2008 4:15 PM
Comments
Comment #266328

Ray Guest writes; “There is no market more free than a black market in voter registration - completely lawless - observing no regulations - buying voter registrations for profit… Repubs should love this.”

Ray, accusing Republicans of being lawless is shameful. This could have been a good informational article of value to all readers had he not inserted his screed demonizing all Republicans.

Ray also writes; “Its employees work for money. None of these fraudulently registered folks are actually going to vote. It is not about getting them to vote. It is about making money. Just get someone to fraudulently fill out a voter registration application in a poor neighborhood, and make your paycheck. It is a great job, especially since about the only other jobs available in these neighborhoods are joining the military and dying for your country, or selling drugs and killing yourself and others that way, or selling your body and killing yourself and others that way.”

Excuse me, I don’t buy your choices here and if I lived in one of those neighborhoods I would resent your implications. It reminds me of the old Elliot Ness TV show the “Untouchables”. In one episode Elliot arrested a man in a wheel-chair. The crippled man asked Ness, “What else could I do”? Ness replied, “You could have become President of the United States.

Liberals are great at telling the poor and disadvantaged that only thru government can they survive and prosper. Liberals excel in keeping these unfortunate folks from achieving by excusing and promoting anti-social behavior. Liberals don’t believe in personal responsibility and personal achievement. Liberals refuse to allow children in these areas to have school choice using vouchers, and liberals must keep them dependent all their lives to obtain allegiance to their failed and flawed political philosophy.

Posted by: Jim M at October 9, 2008 4:35 PM
Comment #266340
Obama has no connection to ACORN. He got hired as a lawyer to represent them in a lawsuit and did a good job.

That is not the only interaction between Obama and Acorn, Ray.

According to ACORN, Obama trained its Chicago members in leadership seminars; in turn, ACORN volunteers worked on his campaigns. Obama also sat on the boards of the Woods Fund and Joyce Foundation, both of which poured money into ACORN’s coffers. ACORN head Maude Hurd gushes that Obama is the candidate who “best understands and can affect change on the issues ACORN cares about” — like ensuring their massive pipeline to your hard-earned money.

In fact, the documents that Obama tried to block from being made public recently show a fair amount of interaction between the two I believe. In fact, I think that his is the ‘October Surprise’ that those on the left have been fearing.

As for being a ‘for profit’ company, considering that 40% of its funding comes from the government, I think it sounds EXACTLY like a smashed together Progressive dream of what a company should look like.

Thanks very much for helping point out the left’s ideology and how it will interact with businesses in the future.

Posted by: Rhinehold at October 9, 2008 5:17 PM
Comment #266342

Jim M,

You said:
The crippled man asked Ness, “What else could I do”? Ness replied, “You could have become President of the United States.”

Gee, that’s really useful advice. I’ll remember to tell the next cripple I see that bit of wisdom. Republicans may not be entirely lawless, but you’d be hard pressed to prove that with the last Congress or this administration. But you just demonstrated a heartless arrogance in the face of a plea for help that I’m certain warms the black twisted hearts of the Jack Abramhoff’s of this world, everywhere.

Good Luck with that image.

Posted by: googlumpugus at October 9, 2008 5:29 PM
Comment #266345

Rhinehold,

I work for engineering companies. guess where 40% of their funding comes from? How about defense contractors? How about law firms?

In fact, in Texas, these kinds of companies fund Republican political campaigns. I think some guy named Tom Delay is still fighting legal battles over something about that.

Posted by: googlumpugus at October 9, 2008 5:34 PM
Comment #266346

Ohrealy
Do you have any local information on ACORN that would be beneficial?

Posted by: kctim at October 9, 2008 5:37 PM
Comment #266350

googlumpugus,

Apparently you think that I think that makes it right.

I think the idea of personal responsibility died its last this fall… And with it goes what made this country great. What will take its place will be a lesser shade of Europe, I’m afraid.

Almost like if the American Revolution didn’t happen. :/

But you just demonstrated a heartless arrogance in the face of a plea for help that I’m certain warms the black twisted hearts of the Jack Abramhoff’s of this world, everywhere.

Ah, the old standby. Any time anyone questions a progressive, just throw this handy false rhetoric out. As if using a gun to take money from someone and give it to someone else is the only kind of ‘help’ people can give or receive.

Well, it is in a Progressive world anyway. How much do the Democratic candidates give each year in charity again?

Posted by: Rhinehold at October 9, 2008 6:04 PM
Comment #266352

“Gee, that’s really useful advice. I’ll remember to tell the next cripple I see that bit of wisdom.”

Sorry goog, you missed the point entirely and I will take the time to explain the nuance to you. Elliott Ness arrested the man for criminal acts. The man defended himself by saying, “what choice, as a cripple, did I have”. This Elliott Ness episode of the “Untouchables” occurred concurrently with the election of FDR, a cripple.

Being a cripple, or being born and raised in poverty is not necessarily an excuse for not rising above your disability or conditions of poverty and certainly not an excuse for lawlessness.

The difference between a helping hand, which I encourage, and selling someone on the idea that they must resign themselves to life on the government dole and excusing their unlawful actions is quite another philosophy.

Conservatives believe in individual responsibility and a temporary helping hand for those truly in need. What do liberals believe?

Posted by: Jim M at October 9, 2008 6:13 PM
Comment #266355

STEALING THE VOTES OF AMERICANS IS OUTRAGEOUS !!!
Acorn’s voter fraud registration must be investigated. Also, Obama’s involvement must be investigated. With the increasing number of anti-American racists and crooks surrounding Obama, we must insure that he does not steal this election. We must also investigate the legitimacy of Obama’s foreign and domestic campaign contributions.

Posted by: Howard at October 9, 2008 6:30 PM
Comment #266357

>Conservatives believe in individual responsibility and a temporary helping hand for those truly in need. What do liberals believe?
Posted by: Jim M at October 9, 2008 06:13 PM

Jim M,

The same thing…however, we also understand there are situations and circumstances that interferes with that concept, and we don’t think abandoning folks who can’t keep up is all that great an idea.

Posted by: Marysdude at October 9, 2008 6:37 PM
Comment #266358

>With the increasing number of anti-American racists and crooks surrounding Obama, we must insure that he does not steal this election. We must also investigate the legitimacy of Obama’s foreign and domestic campaign contributions.
Posted by: Howard at October 9, 2008 06:30 PM

Howard,

Those numbers will never equal the numbers of crooks and lobbiests who are in mccain’s stable…you might as well give that one up.

Posted by: Marysdude at October 9, 2008 6:42 PM
Comment #266363

ACORN is actually more respectable than BHO here. They are involved with more “conservative” churches, in Chicago terminology, to help people get jobs, pay bills, and stay in their homes. The headline of the Chicago Tribune this morning was “Sheriff: I will stop enforcing evictions”.

Dredging the streets, prisons, and cemetaries for voters, is all part of our history here. I don’t know why they bother at this point. BHO’s plurality in Illinois is very large, which may cause greater disparity between the popular and electoral vote than in 2000. I met someone from McHenry county at a dinner party last Friday who will vote for BHO. It’s the triumph of Smug.

If BHO had anything to do with ACORN, they were just another group that he was using to advance himself in his great quest for universal acceptance. You’re overestimating his abilities beyond anything of which he is capable.

Posted by: ohrealy at October 9, 2008 7:25 PM
Comment #266366


The Obama campaign is paying ACORN $800,000 to register voters.

Posted by: jlw at October 9, 2008 7:35 PM
Comment #266368

Liberals are great at telling the poor and disadvantaged that only thru government can they survive and prosper

In truth Jim liberals are great at listening to and addressing the needs of the poor and disadvantaged who are dumped by the wayside, given lip service only and then ignored by conservatives. On the other hand conservatives jump through hoops to bailout their wealthy friends at the expense of the poor and disadvantaged. Conservatives really aren’t any better than liberals. They just use that analogy to cover for the fact that they are by and large cheap and self serving.

Posted by: RickIL at October 9, 2008 7:45 PM
Comment #266369

“The same thing…however, we also understand there are situations and circumstances that interferes with that concept, and we don’t think abandoning folks who can’t keep up is all that great an idea.”
Posted by: Marysdude at October 9, 2008 06:37 PM

Thank you for the clarification and I am very pleased we both have the same philosophy on this. I would like to understand the “situations and circumstances” you refer to. Perhaps we would agree there as well. By the way, conservatives don’t believe in abandoning anyone who truly needs a helping hand either.

Posted by: Jim M at October 9, 2008 7:48 PM
Comment #266372

RickIL is confusing conservatives with some Republicans and many Democrats.

As a conservative I believe if help is truly needed it should be given directly by government at all levels, federal, state and local. Help, if that is the intention, and not pandering for votes…should not be hidden in our tax codes.

A conservative has no problem distinguishing the difference between “help” and a “hand-out” for political purposes.

I find the liberal attempt to not allow a full investigation and discussion of Obama’s connection to Ayers and Acorn troubling. Is it not better to have all the laundry aired out in public now, rather than after the election.

Most of us remember how much the Clinton administration was hampered by having to address issues that were not fully disclosed and discussed during the election cycle. Should Obama be elected, he deserves to have a chance to lead rather than be hamstrung by ongoing investigations. I fail to see how diverting attention on these issues now will help him govern as president.

It is in the interest of every American to have a president unencumbered by the failure now to fully vet his history.

I was away when many were chiding McCain for his supposed inability to use a computer and would like to add my two cents worth. Could Obama ever fly a fighter plane off the deck of an aircraft carrier? Which skill is the more impressive?

Posted by: Jim M at October 9, 2008 8:07 PM
Comment #266374

>Could Obama ever fly a fighter plane off the deck of an aircraft carrier? Which skill is the more impressive?
Posted by: Jim M at October 9, 2008 08:07 PM

Ji M,

Don’t forget that mccain could also fly a jet airplane INTO the flight deck of a carrier as well…I expect Obama can crash a hard drive…oh, well…

Posted by: Marysdude at October 9, 2008 8:41 PM
Comment #266381

Rhinehold:

Thanks for that bit of false logic.

No, but it doesn’t make it wrong either. Many legit businesses have the US government as a large client.

Perhaps one should find something other than bad Hollywood scripts for satisfying their need to step on people when they are down. Just a thought.

I don’t know much about Acorn. It doesn’t appear that Obama has much involvement. But somehow getting a job in the hood becomes holding someone up, and justifies being cynical toward wayward cripples?

Yeah. Nothing tried and true about that rot, or wrong with that logic.

Enjoyed your demented thinking there.

Jim M.,

Then Mr. Ness could have said you could have gotten a job at Acorn. But it’s much more fun to grind someone in the dirt with false rhetoric, eh?

I got the point. It’s you that don’t get it. I guess in Hollywoodisms that makes you the Tin Man or is it the Lion? I guess I’ve got to start watching more movies. Maybe Ralph Reed can be my moral compass.

Posted by: googlumpugus at October 9, 2008 9:24 PM
Comment #266382

> Maybe Ralph Reed can be my moral compass.
Posted by: googlumpugus at October 9, 2008 09:24 PM

goog,

Oooohhh! That’s gotta hurt…

Posted by: Marysdude at October 9, 2008 9:28 PM
Comment #266386

Weak minds will believe anything…do you really believe what they’re feeding you…Obama’s anti-american? People act like he’ll just open the doors and invite all terroist in the world into the country. Wakeup they going to steal this election and your eyes are going to be wide shut.

Posted by: Thomas D Merritt at October 9, 2008 9:47 PM
Comment #266387
Looks bad for the Dems… Really??? Well??? Sort of…

First, lets set the record straight, Obama has no connection to ACORN.

No connection? As jlw points out, Obama’s past associations with ACORN are just the tip of the iceberg.

What about his CURRENT associations with them? Associations he’s maintained as a presidential candidate, for crying out loud?

He paid them $800,000. He even ADMITS it.

It’s ridiculous to maintain that this is “no association.” By Obama’s own admission, his campaign is DIRECTLY associated with and has written fat checks to an organization that’s being actively investigated for voter fraud in more than a dozen states. There’s absolutely no other way to spin it.

Obama and Voter Fraud—get used to it.

Posted by: Loyal Oppostion at October 9, 2008 9:47 PM
Comment #266388

Jim M

RickIL is confusing conservatives with some Republicans and many Democrats

I am confusing nothing Jim. The last eight years have been testament to the all things wealthy era, at the expense of everyone else policies of GW and Co. and their lockstep republican congress. Lockstep until election time anyway. Now that their careers are in jeopardy they have suddenly found a conscience and are outraged at the injustices bestowed upon the people. There is nothing like the threat of losing ones job to bring a republican legislator down to earth and be found suddenly expressing concern rather than arrogant and indifferent opinion.

You folks are showing extreme desperation in trying to make the Ayers and Acorn thing some sort of serious issue. I really don’t believe any of us over here on the left are shaking in our boots over such trivial bull. Fact is mccain can not win on issues. So as usual republicans must resort to the right wing propogandic sleaze of Fox, Limbgaugh etc that seems to so freely ooze from their pores. We have eight years of republican policy to thank for what will most likely be the worst economic period of our lifetimes. Only a fool would think that to continue down that same path is the way out. mccain offers no direction away from the failed policies that have put us where we are. And no, none of us expect republicans to fess up and claim any accountability. It simply is not in their nature.

Could Obama ever fly a fighter plane off the deck of an aircraft carrier? Which skill is the more impressive?

Modern day aircraft have evolved into highly technical machines reliant on the use of computer technology. I can’t see any reason why Obama with the proper training couldn’t fly a plane off the deck of an aircraft carrier. In order for mccain to fly today he would first have to learn how to use a computer.

Posted by: RickIL at October 9, 2008 9:53 PM
Comment #266389

Here’s a issue Sen McCain should talk about that would interest me: in the second debate he said “I know how to get Bin Laden,” is it just me or is this guy withholding information vital to national security? Why has he kept this knowledge to himself, unless he believed it could be a trump card in the race for the White House? Senile, patriotic, or a lobbist for his own interest (becoming the president). You make the call.

Posted by: Thomas Merritt at October 9, 2008 10:00 PM
Comment #266390

Here is an interesting read:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/10/10/palin_chryson/

Posted by: janedoe at October 9, 2008 10:07 PM
Comment #266391

LO

From your link: FEC spokeswoman Mary Brandenberger said it is not unusual for campaigns to amend reports, even regarding large sums of money.

But, said Blair Latoff, spokeswoman for the Republican National Committee: “Barack Obama’s failure to accurately report his campaign’s financial records is an incredibly suspicious situation that appears to be an attempt to hide his campaign’s interaction with a left-wing organization previously convicted of voter fraud. For a candidate who claims to be practicing ‘new’ politics, his FEC reports look an awful lot like the ‘old-style’ Chicago politics of yesterday.”

Imagine that. A RNC spokeswoman building claims of suspicion out of an amended report. No proof of wrongdoing, just suspicions. Who would have thought?

Posted by: RickIL at October 9, 2008 10:11 PM
Comment #266393

RickIL

Seriously? Someone on the left is attacking someone making accusations out of suspicions without proof?

It’s like Bizzaro world.

Posted by: Rhinehold at October 9, 2008 10:19 PM
Comment #266394

janedoe

Good read! I found this especially interesting.

Palin backed Chryson as he successfully advanced a host of anti-tax, pro-gun initiatives, including one that altered the state Constitution’s language to better facilitate the formation of anti-government militias. She joined in their vendetta against several local officials they disliked, and listened to their advice about hiring. She attempted to name Stoll, a John Birch Society activist known in the Mat-Su Valley as “Black Helicopter Steve,” to an empty Wasilla City Council seat. “Every time I showed up her door was open,” said Chryson. “And that policy continued when she became governor.”

Posted by: RickIL at October 9, 2008 10:20 PM
Comment #266396

RickIl, if that doesn’t make the hair on the back of your neck stand up, I’m not sure what would.
This woman has got bigger balls than McCain….and that scares the living s**t out of me, knowing that at any second, she could be the big duck in the puddle.

Posted by: janedoe at October 9, 2008 10:27 PM
Comment #266397

Rhinehold

No Rhinehold, no counterattack or an agreement from the left would qualify as bizzaro world by today’s standards. After all counterattack, no matter it’s validity is the norm now days.

Posted by: RickIL at October 9, 2008 10:35 PM
Comment #266398
LO

From your link: FEC spokeswoman Mary Brandenberger said it is not unusual for campaigns to amend reports, even regarding large sums of money.

RickIL, I never made an issue over Obama’s initial failure to report his payments of large sums of money to ACORN. That’s a completely different subject.

The article under discussion here by Ray Guest categorically states that “Obama has no connection to ACORN” except for having once been hired by them as a lawyer.

The article I linked to, however, demonstrates conclusively that Obama’s connection to ACORN goes WAY beyond his legal work for them—to the tune of an $800,000 payout. And that his campaign even ADMITS it.

So are we still denying Obama’s connection to an organization linked with voter fraud? Or just trying to change the subject?

Posted by: Loyal Oppostion at October 9, 2008 10:48 PM
Comment #266399

RickIl, if that doesn’t make the hair on the back of your neck stand up, I’m not sure what would.
This woman has got bigger balls than McCain….and that scares the living s**t out of me, knowing that at any second, she could be the big duck in the puddle.

It is very scary stuff. However I think her mindset fits right in with that of the GOP. They spent the better part of their six unfettered years of control in efforts to insure a party of dominance for decades to come. Had it not been for dumb ass GW, Iraq and scandal after scandal they may very well have gotten away with it. Now look at the mess this country is in at the hands of all that incompetence and greed. Give mccain and palin the keys to the country and we might as well bend over and kiss life as we know it goodbye. It really is hard to believe that there are people out there who actually think that they could possibly be good for this country. I guess you just have to hit some people in the head with the baseball bat before they will believe you actually have one.

Posted by: RickIL at October 9, 2008 10:49 PM
Comment #266400

LO

CSI is a subsidiary of Acorn. It was CSI who was being paid for work, not Acorn.

Posted by: RickIL at October 9, 2008 10:54 PM
Comment #266401

Well there are a couple of things that aren’t shaking out so well in their direction. Initial results are supposed to be released tomorrow from the “Troopergate” investigation. Some things coming out indicate that “First Dude” didn’t do her any favors with the way he testified.
That cop who was browbeating the McCain/Palin crowd yesterday has been under Federal investigation, and that is supposed to come out tomorrow as well. Not really smart to be inciting the crowd in a political way while wearing your full uniform.

Posted by: janedoe at October 9, 2008 11:02 PM
Comment #266402
LO

CSI is a subsidiary of Acorn. It was CSI who was being paid for work, not Acorn.

Now that is just hilarious.

It’s just like none of the campaigns are putting commercials on TV. It’s all the work of advertising agencies. And George Bush didn’t invade Iraq. It was the US military.

Laughable spin.

Posted by: Loyal Oppostion at October 9, 2008 11:16 PM
Comment #266404

LO-
We can tell two different stories here, fella. In one story, we have Obama paying a corporation, one of whose employees committed voter fraud. In the other, somehow Obama initiated, ordered, suggested the fraud himself. Right?

You would like to say that the second is fact, and are implying it. But you don’t even have a shred of proof.

All you have is a generalized suspicion of liberal groups and a more specific suspicion of ACORN, neither of which extends factually to behaviors ordered by the management, much less Obama. It’s an embarrassing thing to have happen, But the notion that this reflect on the candidate is several steps short of evidence.

Seems like the usual pattern.

Have you considered what a difficult job it must be to convince liberals that they’re actually evil, or at least corrupt?

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 10, 2008 12:14 AM
Comment #266405

I’m somewhat confused. Has Reagan sprung back to life spouting caca like “truly needy”? God help us.

For the edification of all present, corporate America runs this country, and since corporate America is highly conservative (in a manner of speaking…….they DO love THEIR welfare, after all), then we can safely say our government has been conservative for freaking ages. The only way a liberal ANYTHING is going to make it in this country is to lie, cheat, steal (and if Reagan has indeed sprung back to life, I will happily commit murder.)

When our dear people are standing in soup lines, maybe the Revolution will begin.

Posted by: Maggiespoke at October 10, 2008 12:17 AM
Comment #266408

Nothing like despicably pitting American citizens and illegal aliens against each other for votes , profits , and (supposedly) compassion (yeah, right).

But, SSHHHhhhhhhhh … we’re not supposed to talk about an estimated 3% of all votes being cast by illegal aliens , no voter identification, etc., etc., etc.

With close elections, that’s a problem.

All voter fraud is a problem, but Congress refuses to ever do anything about it.

At any rate, the voters have the government that the voters elect (and re-elect, and re-elect, and re-elect , … , at least until that finally becomes too painful).

Posted by: d.a.n at October 10, 2008 12:25 AM
Comment #266409

mccain and PALIN have just as many if not more disturbing people they have associated with. Everyone on the right can keep bringing up Ayers and Wright if you want ‘cause the only people who care are already voting for the grump and the idiot. I think Obama did a great job of calling mccain out for being too much of a wimp to say this stuff to his face. Just because no one asked the question to mccain shouldn’t be a deterrent as we just watched the sidekick’s sidekick totally ignore the moderator in her debate and issue her pre-written answers from a note card. Keep up the stupid attacks and you might get beat by a the Green Party in the general election.

The ACORN thing is disturbing because people who legitimately registered to vote with one of their workers might be disenfranchised because of their sloppy practices. It doesn’t seem to me to be about trying to get a bunch of votes for Obama as it is to get a paycheck for some poor schlep. While I have shown how the GOP has tried to suppress the vote on several occasions and both parties have engaged in some sort of election fraud in pretty much every election this country has ever held. I think that everyone on this blog would say that having everyone who is legally eligible to vote is a good thing for America and that anyone who should be allowed to vote and is denied that right is among the worst abuses of their rights possible. Risking legal voters right to cast their ballots is the worst crime that ACORN has committed. I don’t think that having paid persons registering voters is a good thing - if Obama did give these guys $800,000 he shouldn’t have. I don’t think this was money to get illegal votes and don’t think there is any proof of that.

As far as this being the “October Surprise” I doubt it. The stock market fell over 600 points today, just like the Ayers thing, no one is listening to this noise other than people who already hate Obama. The rest of us are worried about a global economic collapse and the possibility of having a guy who admittedly knows little about the economy and a VP candidate who knows little about anything screwing this country even further into the ground. The “October Surprise” is probably going to go in the other direction as Mike Barnicle said, as GM might be about to go bankrupt. Their stock is below $5 a share they are in serious trouble. If this happens, it will take a miracle for mccain to win. When the Obama folks use the line erratic to describe how mccain has acted in this crisis they’re right. Even though this word has become a lame talking point (which the fact that the Dems actually have a talking point and more than a couple of people are repeating it is an amazing thing) it is accurate. First mccain puts on his cape and flies is to save the day (and wreck negotiations), then he ignores the problem as it is hurting his election chances and goes for hardcore character assassination.
Then, he proposes a totally new and expensive plan that when he first introduced it sounded like a way to help homeowners but has quickly evolved into something that sounds a lot different. Finally he is back to character assassination. In other words erratic.

Posted by: tcsned at October 10, 2008 12:30 AM
Comment #266425

I wouldn’t be surprised if there was evidence that Ayers and Obama were pals.

But the October surprise will be when this comes out and the polls don’t budge one bit. The country is in crisis and nobody gives a flip what Ayers did 40 years ago.

Posted by: Schwamp at October 10, 2008 7:56 AM
Comment #266426

d.a.n.

Isn’t the justice department supposed to go after voter fraud? Why are you blaming Congress?

Posted by: googlumpugus at October 10, 2008 8:03 AM
Comment #266427

Purging the election process of fraudulent practices benefits the nation, if, of course, it is done in a non-discriminatory manner without anyone’s rights abused.
But, then again, that’s wishful thinking!

Posted by: Steve Johnson at October 10, 2008 8:07 AM
Comment #266431

a judge in ohio has ordered the voter registrations by acorn be checked and crossed referenced with bmv records. the dems are going to appeal the ruling. if there is no fraud, why not just allow the verification ?

Posted by: dbs at October 10, 2008 10:23 AM
Comment #266432

LO

Once again you folks are reaching for the guilt by association thing. What Acorn has done with respect to voter registration fraud is wrong. They should without a doubt be penalized for that wrong doing. None of this indicates any wrongdoing by Obama’s campaign. There is no indication that Obama’s campaign hired Acorn to enlist false registrations for them. CSI claims to be a separate entity from Acorn. They say Acorn is their client. Acorn is the company being looked at for voter registration fraud. I think it is apparent that what has happened here is that some employees got lazy and greedy and decided to make some easy money. I would hope those employees have long since been fired. At any rate allegations by the right are an extreme stretch, once again.

To be honest I really don’t think anyone really cares all that much at this point in time. Claims of voter fraud have become part of the norm with each election cycle. I am sure that if we looked really hard we would find an equal amount of fraud from either side of the table. And we would find it equally hard to place any direct blame on the individual candidates. To put it mildly our economy is in the tank. Unless specific blatant wrongdoing and blame can be proven these issues will take a back seat to the economy. People are worried about day to day survival, not voter registration concerns.

Posted by: RickIL at October 10, 2008 10:51 AM
Comment #266433

Sounds like voter registration needs some govt regulation.

Posted by: kctim at October 10, 2008 11:11 AM
Comment #266434

When one vote is cast that does not belong to a real person, that is a problem. When one real person is denied the vote who is entitled to it, and has registered so they can cast it, that is an injustice.

Indeed, Tens of thousands of eligible voters have been illegally purged from the voting roles

Even folks in Montana are not safe. A decorated WWII veteran was one of those they planned to disenfranchise for simply moving across town. But if you think that’s bad, there’s another approach that Republicans in Michigan attempted: disenfranchising those people who lost their houses to foreclosure.

I’m not going to defend those who padded registration rolls for their own benefit, as is the case here for these employees. They richly deserve whatever penalty they incur for their fraud. But the great likelihood, by comparison, is that these purges, quite intentional on the part of the Republican, will do more damage than all of the people voting falsely across the country.

Some Republicans might scoff at this point. Some will buy the line given, justifying the removal of those names. Others will say, “You only care because many of these people are Democrats”. First, the whole point of voting rights is that the party in power cannot take away your ability to oppose or come to oppose it.

Whatever power you give the government to do that to others will turn around and enable others to do the same to you. To the first point, though, I say this: in this country, we must have clear, legitimate reason to deny somebody a right before we take it from them.

We legislate and regulate against voter fraud in order to preserve the strength of the vote for qualified voters, to give them the proper weight, the public it’s voice unencumbered by the deceptive dead weight of false votes. But the bias must be towards the preservation of the right to vote. Every vote must be counted, not just those convenient to one political party or another.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 10, 2008 11:17 AM
Comment #266435

When one vote is cast that does not belong to a real person, it negates the vote of somebody who is entitled to have their vote count. That person has been “disenfranchised” and it too, is an injustice.

This voter fraud is quite intentional on the part of Democrats, always has been, and does just as much damage as anything else.

Posted by: kctim at October 10, 2008 11:37 AM
Comment #266436

stephen

these registrations should be verified, and the ones that cant be verified should be tossed. if you didn’t fill it out correctly, too bad. if there was intentional fraud, those responsible should be prosecuted. i don’t care which party they belong to. the fact this is turning up at all these acorn sites is troubling, but i will wait to see the outcome.

Posted by: dbs at October 10, 2008 11:58 AM
Comment #266437

kctim-
Voting is a right, and it’s a right denied far more than counterfeited nowadays. The irony of all this, in the end, is that this whole push against voting fraud was prompted by the 2000 election, but the trouble with that wasn’t false votes clogging the system, but real votes that were never properly counted, for various mechanical and political reasons.

There never was a full hand recount.

So what did the Republicans do? Their absolute best to clear people off the rolls who weren’t dependable Republican voters.

You can argue a false vote negates a real one, but to take a rightfully registered voter off the rolls is to deny them the chance to cast any kind of vote, negated or not.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 10, 2008 12:01 PM
Comment #266439

“Imagine that. A RNC spokeswoman building claims of suspicion out of an amended report. No proof of wrongdoing, just suspicions. Who would have thought?”
Posted by: RickIL at October 9, 2008 10:11 PM

I would like to remind the writer of the demo position taken many times on many issues…It’s not the believability of the evidence that counts, it’s the seriousness of the charge.

Maggiespoke wrote; “The only way a liberal ANYTHING is going to make it in this country is to lie, cheat, steal”

Thank you very much for your honesty. There’s hope you will someday understand the difference between “truly needy” and pandering for votes.

RickIL writes; “People are worried about day to day survival, not voter registration concerns.”

Unfortunately, he is probably correct. Many in our nation put their pocketbook above the principles upon which our nation was founded. Our founders faced much worse than we are today with resolve and fortitude. The electorate today crumbles in crisis and if RickIL is correct, cares little about having a legitimately elected government. Votes for sale, legislators for sale, judges for sale, reminds me of ancient Rome.

Posted by: Jim M at October 10, 2008 12:04 PM
Comment #266440

dbs-
Would you feel the same way if you or somebody you know were disenfranchised over a clerical error or a mistake on your paperwork?

The emphasis needs to be on preserving the voter’s rights. You can always take the person who voted illegally, or whose eligibility was questionable off the count. You can never add the person who couldn’t vote back on.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 10, 2008 12:05 PM
Comment #266443
googlumpugus wrote: d.a.n., Isn’t the justice department supposed to go after voter fraud? Why are you blaming Congress?

Because:

  • (1) the Justice Department fails miserably to enforce the laws or the Constitution.

  • (2) Congress refuses to require voter identification.

  • (3) John Conyers (who also had the next to worst attendance record in Congress) accomplished little (if anything) from the investigations of voter fraud after year 2000 (www.velvetrevolution.us/electionstrikeforce/2008/01/john_conyers_introduces_bill_t.html).

  • (4) Congress chooses to despicably pit American citizens and illegal aliens against each other for votes , profits , and (supposedly) compassion for illegal aliens.

Anything else?

Posted by: d.a.n at October 10, 2008 12:28 PM
Comment #266444

Stephen
I don’t have to argue how a false vote negates a real one, its a fact and there is no way around that. Counterfeit votes take away the voting rights of “rightfully registered voters.”

I’m glad you think ACORN should be held accountable if they did something wrong, but this “ignore the Dems and look at the Republicans” thing is starting to become a habit for you guys.

Posted by: kctim at October 10, 2008 12:32 PM
Comment #266446

stephen

“Would you feel the same way if you or somebody you know were disenfranchised over a clerical error or a mistake on your paperwork?”

yes i would. YOU are responsible for filling out YOUR registration, and or ballot correctly. it comes down to personal responsibility. if you screw it up, sorry it doesn’t count.

“but the trouble with that wasn’t false votes clogging the system, but real votes that were never properly counted, for various mechanical and political reasons.”

the machines didn’t count the ballots, because they were not properly filled out, and by that i mean the chad had to be COMPLETELY removed. several machine recounts did not change the results. even after the hand recounts taking in to consideration, hanging chads, dimpled chads, (which should not have been counted period) the result was still bush winnig, even though by a razor thin margin. sorry, but you can’t change the rules after the game has been played, because you didn’t like the outcome. all recounts had to be conducted according to rules that were in place before the election.

this registration fraud issue needs to be resolved BEFORE the ballots cast by those in question are counted. once the envelope is sepprated from the ballot there is no way to go back and invalidate that vote because those ballots are anonymous.

Posted by: dbs at October 10, 2008 12:41 PM
Comment #266449

>“ignore the Dems and look at the Republicans” thing is starting to become a habit for you guys.

Posted by: kctim at October 10, 2008 12:32 PM

kctim,

>This “ignore the Repubs and look at the Democrats” thing is starting to become a habit for you guys.

And, before you say it…I know you are not a Repub…but it really doesn’t matter who is pointing the finger.

Finger pointing is the problem. All of us are guilty of that. How long before we achieve third world status wherein we select our leaders at the point of a gun? Pointing fingers is not such a stretch from pointing a gun.

Do we know for sure how much fraud has occurred? Are we positive that any more fraud has occurred than is normal? Are we sure who did it? By the time we find out the answers, perhaps someone will have come up with a solution. We are pretty well assured that ‘one man, one vote’ is the law of the land, so if a man is denied the vote, someone in a leadership position has broken the law. If someone cheats and votes twice or votes under an assumed name, only he has broken the law. Since the former would normally be someone working for the government, it would make it a Constitutional issue, in the latter it would become a local felony.

Posted by: Marysdude at October 10, 2008 1:52 PM
Comment #266452

Marysdude


“Do we know for sure how much fraud has occurred? Are we positive that any more fraud has occurred than is normal? Are we sure who did it?”

we will if the the registrations are compared to official records. the second question is irrelavent any fraud should be investigated. we will most likely know who’s responsible if the investigation is completed, if not at least we made the effort.

“so if a man is denied the vote, someone in a leadership position has broken the law. If someone cheats and votes twice or votes under an assumed name, only he has broken the law.”

which is more serious in your mind ? one man not getting to vote, or many fraudulent votes that cancel out the votes of many, and steal thier right for thier votes to count in the election. if it were a organization that was responsible for organizing, and getting out the republican vote, my guess is you would be screaming bloody murder.

i say match the paperwork to the records, and count the ones that are matching. the rest that cant be verified should be tossed.

hopefully for you the obama campaign will not be tied to this, if it is he’s in big trouble.

Posted by: dbs at October 10, 2008 2:15 PM
Comment #266455

Here’s a sweet video, but only Democrats should watch it:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/10/obama-predicted-gops-nast_n_133562.html

Posted by: Marysdude at October 10, 2008 2:42 PM
Comment #266456

dbs,

You asked me which I found to be more serious…I think that answer is clear in 266449. One would be a local crime and one would be a Constitutional issue.

If we get to choose which is more serious, I vote for someone in power who steps on the Constitution…but, that’s just me…

Posted by: Marysdude at October 10, 2008 2:45 PM
Comment #266457

Marysdude

why not investigate the fraud, and throw out the ballots that don’t meet the requirements. there is an inherent problem with allowing someone to register, and vote at the same time, and not put the means in place to verify that voters eligibility before thier vote is counted. it is an invitation to fraud, and yes a gov’t official violating someones right to vote is serious, but that is not the issue here. if your right to vote is important to you,it should be important enough to register as early as possible so there is no question as to eligibilty. if you move better think ahead. it’s really not that complicated.

Posted by: dbs at October 10, 2008 3:03 PM
Comment #266458

kctim-
They don’t take away anybody’s rights until they become a big enough problem to sway the election. You know what most of the people hauled up on voting fraud did? Misrepresent their own status. When Bush tried to get the US Attorneys of different offices to try and prosecute these crimes, they found few cases in which this kind of fraud actually took place.

But you only have to look, and you’ll find plenty of people being unfairly, illegally denied the right to vote.

You can complain about the fact that we’re not spreading the blame equally, but I have yet to see Democrats engaging in the same kind of voter disenfranchisement. Until I see similar strategies on the Democrat’s part, I won’t draw that conclusion.

And what if they do such things? Well, then, I’d oppose it, and question it. I’d get on Daily Kos and say we must stop this kind of behavior. The Difference between me and many Republicans is that I believe that winning at all costs is winning at too high a cost. Trust me, I want to win these elections badly, but I know if we win in a bad way, it will undermine our victories over the long term.

dbs-
A voter should be considered innocent until proven guilty. There have been people who have been denied the right to vote for, say, putting Bill as their first name instead of William. Voting is perhaps the most important right we have. If voter fraud were a grave and substantial problem, then I might see the point of this zealous approach, but with such numbers so low, what it seems more like is an excuse to take voters from their political opponent’s columns.

The irony is, that the push for this came from an election where the clarity of the voter’s intent, rather than a question of potential fraud, was the issue in controversy. And what have they done? Pushed undependable voting machines out with no paper trail to reassure voters of their selection or in case of a recount. There are better proven, better performing systems out there. And then they’ve attacked the fundamental right of some people to vote, seemingly in an opportunistic fashion.

Republicans seem to have a hard time staying on subject. Asked to pursue the terrorists, they go to Iraq. Asked to make the economy more stable, introduce more honesty into the government, they continue to deregulate to favor the hotshots on Wall Street.

And asked to solve the problem of figuring out the voter’s intent…?

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 10, 2008 4:13 PM
Comment #266462

Daugherty writes; “And what have they done? Pushed undependable voting machines out with no paper trail to reassure voters of their selection or in case of a recount. There are better proven, better performing systems out there. And then they’ve attacked the fundamental right of some people to vote, seemingly in an opportunistic fashion.”

Who are the “they” you refer to here? Just as many democrat election officials set up election procedures as republicans, perhaps even more.

The only reasonable rationale for allowing registering to vote and voting on the same day is to allow voter fraud. Voter fraud is not a fundamental right.

Posted by: Jim M at October 10, 2008 4:30 PM
Comment #266463

>it should be important enough to register as early as possible so there is no question as to eligibilty. if you move better think ahead. it’s really not that complicated.
Posted by: dbs at October 10, 2008 03:03 PM

dbs,

I think the law provides for all you mention, and especially this latter. In my state voter registration has to be completed thirty days prior to any election. How much earlier would you suggest?

Posted by: Marysdude at October 10, 2008 4:35 PM
Comment #266464
They don’t take away anybody’s rights until they become a big enough problem to sway the election.

The mantra of the Progressive Party of America. Ignore the rights of others if they aren’t really being hurt TOO much as long as the ends justify the means…

You know what most of the people hauled up on voting fraud did? Misrepresent their own status.

Not in the case of Acorn, Stephen. Who’s trying to deflect now?

But you only have to look, and you’ll find plenty of people being unfairly, illegally denied the right to vote.

Where? I don’t support it either but saying things and those things having factual weight behind them are two different things. Like me saying that ‘Democrats are trying to register illegal immigrants’ is something I could say, but does it hold up to the facts? Does a few isolated incidents point to a systemic issue?

And what if they do such things? Well, then, I’d oppose it, and question it. I’d get on Daily Kos and say we must stop this kind of behavior.

Are you doing so now, Stephen? Acorn is being found to have done this in several states, it becomes a pattern, not isolated incidents at that point. Are you on there now saying that Democrats should be distancing themselves from Acorn or are you defending them because you know that Obama is tied to them enough that it could cause a problem this election?

Which is it?

the clarity of the voter’s intent, rather than a question of potential fraud, was the issue in controversy.

No, it was the issue of controversy for the Progressives who believe that rules and personal responsibility are bothersome to the endgame.

People are given clear rules to vote by and they must follow them. If they are told that you have to do X for a vote to be considered a legal vote, and they don’t do that, it doesn’t MATTER what their intent was, Stephen. They still have to follow the rules. That was what the Democrats wanted to ignore in 2000 and why the Supreme Court stopped the violation of the fourteenth amendment that the Democrats wanted to ignore in order to ‘infer the voter’s intent’ because they thought it would get more votes for their guy.

I dislike the voting machines and systems we have now but many of the old systems never had a paper trail either. We need to fix it, but until we do we still need to hold elections and we need to ensure that those who are voting are legally allowed to vote, there, once. Not people pretending to be other people, etc. And we need to encourage people to vote, not fear them into not voting. As long as their vote is legal is should count.

But we can’t ‘divine’ voter’s intent, Stephen, nor should we try. If the rules are clear and known, they should be followed. If not followed, then it doesn’t count. That’s the only fair, constitutional way, to handle it.

Posted by: Rhinehold at October 10, 2008 4:44 PM
Comment #266465

stephen

“And asked to solve the problem of figuring out the voter’s intent…?”

intent of the voter is not the issue. there are rules in place for a reason. that reason is so we all are playing by the same set of rules. rules for the game are essential for making the contest fair to all involved.

the acorn incident does not appear to be a minor thing. nobodys right to vote is compromised when we ensure that everyone who votes is eligible.

while you rail at republicans for vote caging, you seem to think it’s fine when democrats try to stack the deck in thier favor registering people twice, registering dead people, and doing other things to stack the deck. if a small percentage people ineligible to vote, do so in a tight election, that small amount of fraud can be decisive in determining victory. IMO that is every bit as serious as vote caging.

“Republicans seem to have a hard time staying on subject. Asked to pursue the terrorists, they go to Iraq. Asked to make the economy more stable, introduce more honesty into the government, they continue to deregulate to favor the hotshots on Wall Street.”

c’mon stephen, this cheap shot is tackey. i’ve always considered you above this type of trash talk.

Posted by: dbs at October 10, 2008 4:47 PM
Comment #266466

Something to consider:
ACORN turned in forms they had flagged as problematic to authorities.

Polling place fraud is rare, and simply forging bad registrations, duplicating, only gets you to the polling place, where you have to convince somebody to commit a felony, which due to the secret ballot you can’t even be certain will do the job.

The real victim here is ACORN. They paid good money to these people to get good voter registrations. They turned in people who were connected with those frauds themselves.

I know some Republicans and Right-Leaning Independents will take this opportunity to inject some sort of convoluted explanation for that, but don’t bother. Consider that the number of investigations of ACORN might be more the product of the kind of political pressure that lead to the US Attorneys Firing in 2006. One of the key similarites between the several cases is that otherwise qualified people, after being asked to ramp up these kinds of investigation, told the Justice Department they didn’t have the evidence to make prosecutions.

Let’s consider then: ACORN turned in those who committed fraud. Investigations may have been numerous, but we have good evidence of excessive political pressure from the top for these investigations. Though the false registrations could be used to create counterfeit votes, you would have to somehow encourage a huge number of people to show up and commit felonies, and you would not know if you had wasted your money until after everything was said and done.

Now, when we have real disenfranchisement being attempted and succeeding, truly illegal stuff being committed by state governments upon their citizens, why are we worrying about these more unlikely individual crimes more? The Priorities are screwed up if we care more about the unlikely fake threats and less about real, ongoing malicious practices by our own government.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 10, 2008 4:47 PM
Comment #266467


As long as we consider voting a right rather than a duty, we will always have those who will use regulations to deny people the right, we will always have fraud, we will always have an institutionalized two party system that claims to represent all the people and we will never have government of the people.

“A pox on both your houses.”

Posted by: jlw at October 10, 2008 5:01 PM
Comment #266468

Stephen
“They don’t take away anybody’s rights until they become a big enough problem to sway the election”

Sorry, but I believe it is every voters right to have their vote count and every illegal vote makes one legal vote not count.

“But you only have to look, and you’ll find plenty of people being unfairly, illegally denied the right to vote”

Enough to sway the election? Probably not.

But to tell the truth, in todays US, people who take their vote serious can and should make sure they can vote before they even get to the polls. And if they are too lazy to check their info, too dumb to know where to vote or too stupid to fill out the ballot correctly, they shouldn’t let a certain political party entice them into believing they have been “disenfranchised.”

You know, not all “purging” is done with bad intentions and people claiming they are is nothing but fear mongering to scare up votes. That doesn’t mean we don’t punish the incidents where somebody does something illegal either.
We just need to use some common sense and do our best to make sure that those who can vote, do and those who can’t, don’t.

Posted by: kctim at October 10, 2008 5:06 PM
Comment #266470

dbs-

while you rail at republicans for vote caging, you seem to think it’s fine when democrats try to stack the deck in thier favor registering people twice, registering dead people, and doing other things to stack the deck. if a small percentage people ineligible to vote, do so in a tight election, that small amount of fraud can be decisive in determining victory. IMO that is every bit as serious as vote caging.

If you register people twice, they catch that, and only one person can vote. If you put a dead or non-existent person on the ballot, that person has to show up with the ID to back that up, committing a felony simply by doing that. Cases of this are rarely found.

Meanwhile, there are tens of thousands of actual, documented cases of vote-caging and other exclusionary tactics. You tell me which demands more attention: tens of thousands of people unfairly, even illegally denied their vote, or the scarce handfuls of voters who commit fraud to sway elections.

As for whether I think it’s fine to commit such fraud, I think I answered that unequivocally: No, I don’t think so. I made a point of saying I didn’t think so, and you ignored that or simply didn’t take me at my word if you’re saying otherwise.

As for the “trash talk”? I’m sorry, I’m not kidding. I wish I was kidding. I wish the Bush administration put its efforts into encouraging the appropriate use of technology. I wish they had kept their eye on the ball in Afghanistan. One of the reasons the Bush administration is so unpopular is this sort of Bait and Switch. Asked to confront a certain problem, they instead use that problem as a means to further a predetermined agenda. Whether that’s war in Iraq, undermining regulation and people’s faith in government, or handing over massive giveaways to favored corporations and lobbyists, this is what they’ve done in the place of what Americans have wanted.

And that’s what McCain is being punished for.

As for the intent of the voter, what’s the point of opening the polls if you don’t want to know who they intend to be elected to all those offices? We hold votes to measure the intent of the voters.

Rhinehold-
There are ways to measure the intent of a voter. In the case of that Butterfly Ballot, we run into the problem of which hole corresponds to which candidate. That ballot might end up intractably muddled. But with punch-card ballots, we can see where somebody punched the hole, even if it was imperfectly done. There, most anybody could agree on what that ballot meant, and should.

Maybe in a perfect little world we could follow perfect little rules and get a perfect little result. But real world systems need some margin for error, because it will show up. Real world punch cards can punch incompletely, and people might not notice that the hole didn’t get completely or sufficiently punched. But if there’s a significant enough punching of that hole to show you what somebody intended, the fact that it didn’t go through shouldn’t stop a hand recount from going through and determining which votes were which.

Maybe you don’t think that it’s important to honor the voter’s intent. But it is important, at least to them, and if you don’t want big questions hanging over your candidate’s heads, you agree to such conditions. Just as I would say that those who fraudulently register people should go to jail, I would say that the government should bend over backwards to determine the true intent of the voter. Those who express contempt for that, only hollow out their own legitimacy.

Maybe you think it’s so important to defeat liberals that you must say black everytime we say white, that we must be the enemy while you fellows play the heroes. But in reality, we’re all in the same boat together, and the mutual legitimacy of our system depends on the will and the franchise of the voter being respected. If it is not, then those cut out by the bureacrats and the partisans will not respect the results of the election.

You can put words in our mouths and motives to our actions however you like, but the truth is, most Democrats just want what most people want: a voice that counts the same as everybody else’s. We don’t apologize for voting fraud, or justify cutting other folks out. We’re honest people, most of us, and we haven’t yet proved otherwise, like the Republican officials I’ve referred to, those who have their own documented paper trail of trying to disenfranchise Americans.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 10, 2008 5:18 PM
Comment #266471

Dude
When an illegal voter cancels out a legal voter, the legal voter has been denied his right. So to me, both are Constitutional issues.

I absolutely agree with you guys that we must ensure everybody has the right to vote if they so choose, but we must also make sure that vote counts.

Posted by: kctim at October 10, 2008 5:35 PM
Comment #266472

kctim,

I hope you think the rabid crowds at mccain rallies are a worry to you as well, or do you think folks should stay away from polls because of fear? Doesn’t that mean they’ve had their vote taken away?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/10/mccain-defends-his-rabid_n_133710.html

Posted by: Marysdude at October 10, 2008 5:57 PM
Comment #266489

stephen

“If you put a dead or non-existent person on the ballot, that person has to show up with the ID to back that up, committing a felony simply by doing that. Cases of this are rarely found.”

sorry stephen, but that isn’t true. i recently moved from california to ohio. while ohio requires ID california doesn’t. in fact you can vote absentee in california by simply filling out a form and signing. i know stephen because i started voting absentee, and it was never once checked. california democrats stop the ID thing every time it’s pushed. if you don’t think people are voting illegally there, think again. illegal aliens are voting there, i guarentee it.

“As for the intent of the voter, what’s the point of opening the polls if you don’t want to know who they intend to be elected to all those offices? We hold votes to measure the intent of the voters.”

you’re splitting hairs stephen, or making a play on words. obviously an election determins the intent of voters, but trying to determine the intent of voters who fail to fill out thier ballots correctly is not the same thing.


Posted by: dbs at October 10, 2008 7:19 PM
Comment #266490

stephen

“Maybe in a perfect little world we could follow perfect little rules and get a perfect little result. But real world systems need some margin for error, because it will show up. Real world punch cards can punch incompletely, and people might not notice that the hole didn’t get completely or sufficiently punched. But if there’s a significant enough punching of that hole to show you what somebody intended,”

if i send in my tax bill on time , but it doesn’t get because i didn’t use sufficient postage, i still have to pay the late penalty. thats the rule, my intentions are irrelevant. the same holds true for casting a ballot. if we don’t inforce those rules then they mean nothing. when i vote stephen check my ballot over carefully so that it is not excluded. it’s called personal responsibility.

Posted by: dbs at October 10, 2008 7:29 PM
Comment #266496

This is a newly released response:

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/he_lied_about_bill_ayers.html

Posted by: janedoe at October 10, 2008 8:11 PM
Comment #266504

Just in from FactCheck.org regarding McCain’s Ayer’s attack ads:

In a TV ad, McCain says Obama “lied” about his association with William Ayers, a former bomb-setting, anti-war radical from the 1960s and ’70s. We find McCain’s claim to be groundless. New details have recently come to light, but nothing Obama said previously has been shown to be false.
Posted by: David R. Remer at October 10, 2008 9:09 PM
Comment #266505

janedoe,

Great link…lays it all out in all mccain’s degradation…

DR, Thanks, but janedoe said it better…lol

Posted by: Marysdude at October 10, 2008 9:24 PM
Comment #266509

dude…..I think that just gives me the “copy&paste award of the day”…. ;)
All of this along with Stephen’s new post makes it look really bleak for McCain right now. The nastiness of the strategists seems to have backfired, and watching McC a while ago, he looks very old, very tired, and very discouraged. Too bad that some don’t find out until way too late, that things you throw out do sometimes come back and bite you square in the ass.

Posted by: janedoe at October 10, 2008 9:42 PM
Comment #266511

I just want to give kudos to John McCain. I just heard this on Larry King on the radio so I don’t know what rally it was. But at this rally some nutjob threw out the Barack Obama was an Arab and another says that an Obama presidency scares the hell out of him and McCain told both that Obama was a good family man, his is not an Arab, and you shouldn’t be scared of an Obama presidency. The crowd started booing but he stood firm. McCain said that they had differences and important ones and though he thought he was the best choice for the job but you don’t have to be afraid of Obama. Good job Senator McCain - you get your capital letters back :) That’s the McCain I liked, but didn’t agree with in 2000. I’m sure there is some pragmatism there too since it appears that the negative stuff wasn’t working but it was a human moment for a campaign that had been turning consistently more nasty. I hope we get a real policy debate next week.

So hats off to John McCain.

Posted by: tcsned at October 10, 2008 9:43 PM
Comment #266515

dbs-
Whether you have to show ID, or claim to be somebody, the Republicans have looked, pushed their people to look, created a whole think-tank to look for it, and the best they can find are these few people who are supposed to register real folks defrauding their companies by getting bogus registrations.

Which ACORN is sending along and helping prosecute.

But do we have massive fraud with unreal voters showing up to cast ballots? No. Most people, by an extraordinary margin, belong there. We have laws for provisional ballots in cases where information is in dispute, and those get thrown away if they’re not legitimate.

They also don’t count if they’re not properly filled out. That’s reasonable. The information has to be clear. The trick here, with those punchcard ballots, was that there was information that a human could pick up on, an obviously punched out hole, with the little tag only coming into play when the card was fed through the scanner. Should we disregard a person’s vote, unambiguously made, for the sake of machine error? That’s the point of a hand recount.

That recount never really happened. Instead, the original results, the original certification was backed by a Supreme court decision so thin that in its decision, the majority said they would not allow that decision to be set as precedent. And that stopped the count.

The appeal to authority leaves me rather cold. It seems a vote for sterile, mechanical bureaucracy rather an engaged, positively functioning part of our society. It’s the same logic that sees people added to a terrorist Watchlist that includes hundreds of thousands of names and millions of entries, names that never come off, regardless of what evidence one has that one’s not a terrorist.

You folks seem set on making people prove they aren’t fakes so they can vote. Instead of defaulting towards believing that people who are showing up are voting in good faith as registerd voters, you’re defaulting towards believing that anybody must be a fraud until they prove otherwise. Same attitude show up in the bankruptcy bill: If you’re under a certain income, the system assumes you’re trying to game it, and you’re sent to credit counselling.

Your system doesn’t trust people to be law abiding. It sets them out to be potential cheats and lawbreakers from the beginning, just waiting for the opportunity.

That’s a system custom-built to weaken people’s rights, disempower them, disenfranchise. How many hoops are you willing to put people through in order to prove their right to vote?

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 10, 2008 10:11 PM
Comment #266519

FactCheck says Ayers only intended to do property damage. This statement is false. According to the story in the New York Times-

He went underground in 1970, after his girlfriend, Diana Oughton, and two other people were killed when bombs they were making exploded in a Greenwich Village town house.

Bombs so pwerful were not merely intended to do “property damage” no matter how upright the organization saying they were appears to be. FactCheck also admits to being supported by the Annenberg foundation.

According to witnesses (and my own memory of the newfilms) the bomb at the capitol was easily powerful enough to kill.

Obama’s association with Ayers was a close enough one for the two to leave a substantial paper trail of cooperation from the Annenberg Project, which calls a couple of things into question. Obama’s judgement should be called into question for his associations if he did know Ayer’s past- this is a man who will be choosing the leaders of our Executive branch if he wins, after all. If he didn’t he is just incompetent for not finding out who his major supporters are.

Secondly, the work he did on the Annenberg Project didn’t, according to any information I have seen or heard, even after throwing MILLIONS OF DOLLARS at education in Chicago, improve any educational metric. But he wants us to trust his judgement with TRILLIONS of dollars of OUR money.

What part of this story makes him look good?

Posted by: Lee Jamison at October 10, 2008 10:29 PM
Comment #266521

Lee Jamison-
Do you regularly go researching into the pasts of fellow employees? Bill Ayers was literally living a different life from that one, one where he had built up a reputation as a respected academic. Can you blame Obama for not being psychic, paranoid, or both?

By the way, the association is all the people who went through the paper trail could find, apparently. No inflammatory quotes, sordid projects. Maybe in Republican circles, the fact that he didn’t have a precognitive flash of this controversy and run screaming from Ayers is sufficient to accuse him of bad judgment, but in the real world, everybody’s working on partial information.

As for the foundation itself, It’s founder was a rather civic minded conservative friend of Ronald Reagan, whose widow recently endorsed McCain. FactCheck itself is as hard on Democrats as on Republicans. But as Republicans define it, apparently, anybody who speaks ill of Republicans, associates with the wrong people, or takes the wrong views must be a far left Liberal.

You might then include The opinion of the prosecutor who went after Ayers

The reality is, your approach is finding reasons to discredit unfavorable facts, to make sure that the opinion you start out with, or find most convenient at the time is the one which is reinforced.

Makes for nice, cohesive stories, as long as you forcefully ignore contradictory facts

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 10, 2008 11:02 PM
Comment #266525

This whole Ayers thing is bordering on the ridiculous. Obama is supposed to know who this guy was when I don’t think that anyone can tell me with a straight face that Sarah Palin who has been leveling most of these attacks had heard of him or what he had done before the line was fed to her by campaign operatives. She is about the same age as Obama. I’m just a little younger and if I hadn’t taken a graduate history course that covered the subject I wouldn’t have known who he was. I probably wouldn’t have made the connection in the context they had met. I doubt if McCain had heard of him before either. Let it go - McCain supporters are the only ones who care about this.

Posted by: tcsned at October 11, 2008 12:43 AM
Comment #266527

i have no idea what’s going on with ACORN.

I do know, first hand, that if you’re legally homeless you can’t vote! Now I’d moved in the past and had to vote where I’d been registered rather than where I’d moved to after the registration date passed, but ……………..

In late 2001 I nearly died, in early 2002 I got divorced, Then I was homeless for several months - not living out of trash cans homeless, but I bounced around friends and children’s homes until I felt I was wearing out my welcome and then I moved on!

Now, I’ll grant you that there was no Presidential election in 2002 but I do know what it’s like to be shut out of the election process!

Due to illness?

Divorce?

Poverty?

Just when does a citizen become a non-citizen?

Posted by: kansasdem at October 11, 2008 2:32 AM
Comment #266535

kansasdem,

When does a citizen become a non-citizen…when he/she becomes a Democrat…haven’t you been paying attention? Just like we who disagree about the stupidity in Iraq have become ‘traitors’, and are guilty of ‘treason’, and ‘hate our troops’, etc.

I expect you can name a few pariahs as well i.e., people who believe in a woman’s right to choose, equals baby killer, etc.

Posted by: Marysdude at October 11, 2008 5:02 AM
Comment #266536

kansasdem,

Oh, and by the way, if you happened, during your world travels, to bump elbows with someone who wore the peace sign during the sixties, you automatically are a hippy necrophiliac, who’s feet stink and don’t love Jesus…it’s called ‘guilt by association’, even if there was no ‘association’, and perhaps no ‘guilt’.

Posted by: Marysdude at October 11, 2008 5:08 AM
Comment #266537

ACORN, hires hourly wage folks to recruit citizens to register to vote…their leanings are to the more liberal voter. When hired these hourly wage folks are given a minimum number of recruits per day to deliver to the polling lists. Some of these workers were lazy, some incompetent, some confused and perhaps some corrupt and lists were turned in with fake names, names from telephone pages, etc. No one who is a thinking person really believes any of the fake names are trying to vote, that would be silly. It was just some workers who wanted to keep getting a paycheck falsifying their books.

FAKE PEOPLE CANNOT VOTE. FALSIFIED FORMS DO NOT MAKE REAL VOTERS…there have been no recorded instance where this book cooking has created a voter out of thin air…please drop this mess before it embarrasses you.

Posted by: Marysdude at October 11, 2008 6:25 AM
Comment #266544

Maybe Ayers should have had a large red “T” for terrorist branded in his forehead. That way anyone who is concerned would instantly get the alarm bell indicating avoidance at all costs. Perhaps Bush should be branded with a big red “PL” for presidential failure when he leaves office. Cheney could be branded with a whole host of things. “D” for dangerous, “A” for as-hole, “BD” for big Dick, “HH” for human hunter etc. If we were to institute this Scarlet Letter method of branding for all controversial VIP’s, folks like Obama would then be unable to provide an excuse for associating with them forty years later. In this matter republicans would not have to contrive far reaching hypotheticals in efforts at character assassination. ;-)

Posted by: RickIL at October 11, 2008 10:27 AM
Comment #266553

tcsned

I’m sure there is some pragmatism there too since it appears that the negative stuff wasn’t working but it was a human moment for a campaign that had been turning consistently more nasty.

I doubt there was as much human reasoning as there was practicality. I think the entire scenario from start to finish was preplanned. You let the demons out and encourage them long enough to plant the seed. Then you back away and denounce them to paint yourself as a compassionate, understanding person above the hatreds you promulgated. If he were sincere he would have stopped it immediately instead of letting it grow.

Posted by: RickIL at October 11, 2008 12:15 PM
Comment #266554
Oh, and by the way, if you happened, during your world travels, to bump elbows with someone who wore the peace sign during the sixties, you automatically are a hippy necrophiliac, who’s feet stink and don’t love Jesus…it’s called ‘guilt by association’, even if there was no ‘association’, and perhaps no ‘guilt’.

Have we met? When were you in California? ;)
I’ve shared my feelings about old/gray/long-haired/vets/Harley-riding/pot-smokers, and these feeling won’t change. There’s something about honor, and respect, and commitment, and yes, PEACE that comes from us left-leaners (although we have some bad apples, too). We’re not stupid, hateful, or bitter. Does anyone remember how many times “we” got thrown into jail for “inciting” crowds? Or for challenging the establishment (usually meaning the cops), or even for shouting obscenities at a rally???
Take a look at the recent McCain gatherings. That is HATE, in the greatest sense of the word, and it’s fear. My fear, that these people are too stupid to take time and to learn things. All they want to do is close their eyes and their minds to anything but the spewing ugliness coming from the mouths of the candidates themselves. Palin is one vicious, nasty, mean, hateful & ignorant woman. She is very dangerous, to us all.
I grew up through some of the worst racial strife in this country, but today, I have no problem embracing a black man and his desires, hopes and plans to try to make this a better place for us all.
I just hope that all of you with the nasty, venomous, ugly comments have no problems sleeping at night after seeing and listening to your choices.
Okay, I have a stong urge to go find a tie-dyed t-shirt now…….

Posted by: janedoe at October 11, 2008 12:42 PM
Comment #266560

Stephen,

It is standard practice, when engaging in fundraising, to find out if the one raising funds for you will be an embarrassment in the future. Obama presumably knows a little something about the concept of “due diligence”. It is somewhere in the job description of all the people he once taught.

And, Marysdude, as an election judge I have had fake voters attempt to vote. Get off your high horse.

Posted by: Lee Jamison at October 11, 2008 1:32 PM
Comment #266567
And, Marysdude, as an election judge I have had fake voters attempt to vote. Get off your high horse.

Wow …

Posted by: janedoe at October 11, 2008 2:12 PM
Comment #266574

Hats Off to Todd Palin

The latest investigation influenced by 31 of Senator Barack Obama’s insiders (31 lawyers sent by Obama to Alaska), led to the results reported yesterday in Alaska to no surprise of anyone. Any man that defends his family like Todd Palin should be praised and not attacked as the Alaskan Democratic Party and Obama insiders with full support of the liberal media including most reporters within Fox News network. It hasn’t been that long since during the post-primaries, that Fox News started following all other news networks and reported mostly positive Pro-Obama news. At that point, Fox News mostly started their covert attacks against Senator John McCain and Governor Sarah Palin.

Any human that defends anyone including a dishonest policeman that tazers a 10 years old child and caught drinking while on the job should not be seen as anything but what that type of person is, a repulsive and in decent human. Gov. Palin now knows what happens to someone that is a true change maker. The liberal media attacks them for defending their family. But then what can any decent American expect from those that attacked a fellow Democrat such as Senator Hillary Clinton solely to support the Change Politician, Barack Obama. Now Obama is using a “fear strategy” to have voters support him. I never knew that my three decades in the military were solely to support one corrupt political Party referred to as the Democratic Party and Sen. Obama.

As for the new type of Washington Politician, the Senator from Illinois, Senator Barack Obama, why isn’t the FCC bringing charges against an unethical politician that broke the law by giving a biased organization ACORN $800,000 to commit voter fraud? But as expected, Both Ways Obama that as a politician that has never kept his long list of promises pertaining to tax cuts deliver his latest promise. Small businesses that make $250,000 will not be taxed. Surprise, Surprise, Surprise as Jim Nabors would say. This election will be the first election won before one vote was entered in a ballet box, by Senator Barack Obama. If the Democratic Party and Obama will go to the level they have gone to attacking the Palin’s, Americans soon will have their lives changed forever but in the worse way possible.

Posted by: Dr Rene, USAF, Retired at October 11, 2008 3:55 PM
Comment #266576

“Dr.” Rene..

I knew you were living in another world somewhere as soon as you said Fox news and liberal in the same breath.
Go have another drink of koolaid, it’ll be over soon.

Posted by: janedoe at October 11, 2008 4:11 PM
Comment #266599

>And, Marysdude, as an election judge I have had fake voters attempt to vote. Get off your high horse.
Posted by: Lee Jamison at October 11, 2008 01:32 PM

Lee,

The pot and the kettle?

My posting was on the subject of ACORN. Try reading 266537…it actually might make sense to you if you read the entry…if you CAN read the entry…if not ask someone to read it to you.

Watchblog Manager,

Sorry, but when I’m attacked tn this way…

Posted by: Marysdude at October 11, 2008 9:13 PM
Comment #267245

Ok, as far as any fraud is concerned, I am always curious as to how, and why, I am curious as to how and why registering to vote is not considered a responsibility, as well as a right if you are a citizen of the United States. I registered my children in a california public school system, and when I did, I had to have birth certificates, social security cards and a utility bill with my name ad address on it, as well as a copy of my husbands military orders so the local public school system could get extra tax money from the federal government to educate my chilren while my husband was in the Marine corps for twenty years. So I never could figure out how any illegal immigrant could circumvent the rules I myself had to adhere to, as far as produceing documentaton to secure my childs enrollment in public school. I was really confused at how in California the public school system ran out of money to bus legal citizens to their neighborhood schools, but found the money and documentation to circumvent the legal system and divert funds and busses to the neighborhods full of illegal immigrants with no documentation, but the schol system could figure out how to get state and federal funding on children without shot records even, they could get state orfederal tax dollars to enroll and bus them. voter regirstration fraud in the state of California is the least of peoples concerns, fraud at the dmv for licances, fraud in the work force, and fraud in the hospitals and public school systems are a question that also begs for a answer. Joe the plumber is a typical angry american who owes taxes, and works without a plumbing licance bonding or insuring, much like the illegals he despises. Its hard to understand exactly what Joe the plumber, aka sam the illegal plumber stands for, other than not paying taxes or benefiting from social security. If Joe, or sam,(is it) had the option to have his social security in the stock market right now, would he be happier? maybe he not only pays avoids paying federal income taxes, but somehow he figured out how not to pay into social security, so he resents the Americans who have paid in,… and if they are lucky will have something comming in their older years? I would love to know that answer. but more than anything, why should it ever be a burden for a American citizen to produce a legal valid social security card ,photo state id, or birth certificate to recive services provided by the American government. Including registering to vote. not only obama but anyone who wants to give driving privlidges to illegal immigrants should explain why. I am for the earned path to citizenship for all illegal immigrants, but I have friends who have family members who have waited over 25 years to become a citizen of the United States, and learned American English, and are wondering what good be hinest and provideing true documentation for the process ever did them anyhow. Why do we reward people for taking short cuts, and penalize people who follow the rules? Identity fraud for everything from voter registration, to immigratrion status whould be dealt with immediately. And cut California off from federal funds for fradulently enrolling Illegal immigrants into the public school system. PLZ

Posted by: Sunday Weiss at October 17, 2008 5:26 PM
Comment #267246

Are we even going to mention incarcerateing illegal immigrants, come one it would be chaper to send them home with a first class ticket, rather than put them into the prison system. talk about fraud. Send home the criminals who are illegal immigrants. Don’t make the tax payers pay to house them in prisons. we need the money to bus our kids to school, and return pe, music and art and sports to our public school systems not pay to incarcerate illegal immigrants who terrorize our legal citizens. come on second to texas oil wealth is their bloated prison system, we could save a ton o taxes if we gave the illegal immigrants in our prison system first class tickets back to their country of origin. If we put five day a week one hour a day pe and sports back into the public school system, then we wouldnt have as many obese children with type 2 diabetes. Or as many legal youth in the juvanile or Gosh forbit adult judicial system.

Posted by: sunday weiss at October 17, 2008 5:30 PM
Comment #267248

Is governmental de regulation, code for no accountability? making it illegal for anyone to ever have to show identification under any circumstances. to vote, drive or educate or take out student loans? Is the United States comming to the place that provideing identification is a violation of any personal,… civil… or human rights.

Posted by: sunday weiss at October 17, 2008 5:34 PM
Comment #267540

Hi everyone, it is nearly election time in the US. So it’s time for you to send your message to American voters by posting a photo message in the hope of a better world.


Time is running out, and it might be the last chance for you to raise your voice.

Please do not hesitate to post your message or if you did so already, just send a message to your friends to view our page or site.

Take part in making OUR world better, take action now,

Give US a hope

GIVE USA HOPE!

www.giveusahope.com

Posted by: giveusahope at October 20, 2008 10:46 AM
Comment #268186

I am not sure where you got the notion that ACORN is a for proft company. As I see it constructed, it is a very large non-profit that is sustained by donations, fees for services, membership dues, and (to a large extent) government grants.

I will look for further documentation to this effect.

Posted by: Mike at October 24, 2008 1:08 PM
Comment #268292

The ” Liberal ” wacked left supporter’s of the
Democratic Party, will resort to any mean’s
necessary to elect a typical far left-wing
” HACK ” for President. Senator ” Obama ” is a
extreme Radical, his voting record is proof in
of it’self. Obama’s ” TAX ” policy, pathetic.
Raise taxe’s even more of the one’s who ” EARN “
it, to give to the one’s who have ” NOT “!

SENATOR, OBAMA spread your ” WEALTH ” not mine.

Posted by: j.i.m. at October 25, 2008 11:02 AM
Comment #268325

Ray Guest,
Can you please define implicated?
What I do with people I’m in contact with is put my 50 dollar bill against their 20 dollar bill and tell them that what they’re hearing is a bald-faced lie. So far; no takers.
There will be no convictions of any ACORN personnel or associates who are on the up and up. There will be no one in the Obama camp who is going to be indicted for anything concerning ACORN. Wanna bet?

Posted by: Stephen Hines at October 25, 2008 3:08 PM
Comment #268752

Stephen Hines and All,

I have been working on the Obama campaign in my free time and have paid no attention to this commentary thread. No one on the Obama campaign had anything to do with ACORN registration fraud and registration fraud has nothing to do with election fraud which is what the Repubs are trying to do with caging legitimate voters and purging them from voter rolls. Registration fraud - registering Daffy Duck which is what ACORN workers were doing for money - does not mean that Daffy will vote - Daffy will not vote - some poor hungry dip will be paid for registering him though…

Posted by: Ray Guest at October 29, 2008 9:41 PM
Comment #271224

i like your article, haven’t seen many people connecting the dots farther than “ACORN HAS FRAUD VOTER REGISTRATION CARDS!”

*thumbs up*

Posted by: emily at December 1, 2008 9:19 AM
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