Democrats & Liberals Archives

Hookers and Blow, That's All You need to Know...

…about the Republican’s approach to being sober and reserved in the face of disaster. Nickel Summary, in case the video goes away for some reason: despite promises to the contrary, the Republican nonetheless partied away with lobbyists in the wake of their supposedly reserved convention. Some raised money, but the fundraising activities of others were most decidedly not directed at disaster relief. Unless, of course, you’re referring to the loss of Republican Power in America.

Posted by Stephen Daugherty at September 1, 2008 10:57 PM
Comments
Comment #260881

And this is worse than Biden campaigning against McCain today after promising not to?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/09/biden-talks-pol.html

I’m not sure what you are getting at here, Stephen, was life in MN suppossed to stop completely? Was this Sunday night or Monday night? Since the hurricane hit during the morning and noon-ish hours, it looks like they were either partying before anything was known or after it was clear that everything was well under control…

Biden, on the other hand, was blasting McCain while Gustav was raging on…

Posted by: Rhinehold at September 1, 2008 11:45 PM
Comment #260885

Basically, after cancelling his appearance in Pittsburgh’s Labor Day parade Monday morning because “today shouldn’t be a day for national politics” Biden talked about politics for an hour with local supporters at a cook out at his home.

Big deal. This shouldn’t be reported. It’s petty.

Posted by: Max at September 1, 2008 11:52 PM
Comment #260886

Damn, I’ve got to get my sound card fixed.

Posted by: googlumpuugus at September 1, 2008 11:54 PM
Comment #260887

If this was ‘a few local supporters at a cook out at his home’, why was the press there? Didn’t he *KNOW* the press would be there? Of course he knew. He couldn’t stop flapping his gums for one day?

It’s a big deal much more than the few parties at the convention in MN was because this was one of the candidates, not a few committee members.

Posted by: Rhinehold at September 1, 2008 11:58 PM
Comment #260896

Yes, I have to admit that this is terribly embarrassing for Republicans.

Especially since Barack Obama, Joe Biden, and the entire Democratic establishment spent the entire day wearing sack-cloth and ashes and praying for our deliverance from the hurricane… that is, when they weren’t filling sand-bags, healing lepers, turning water into wine, and rescuing hurricane victims in their row-boats.

I have no doubt that the only reason Gustav didn’t turn out to be the big deal that many feared is that Barack Obama, along with the Father and the Holy Ghost, commanded the winds and the waters, “Be Still!”

Praise be to Obama! Hope! Change we can believe in! Redemption!

And did I mention that Governor Palin’s daughter is pregnant? Don’t forget that, people!

Obama in 08! Obama 4-eva!

Posted by: Loyal Opposition at September 2, 2008 12:43 AM
Comment #260902

Rhinehold, I don’t know why any of us continue trying to make you see beyond your own opinions, but here goes again… scroll down to either the second or third article. Guess nobody told Sarah and Mitt that they should lay low because of Gustav.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/

Posted by: janedoe at September 2, 2008 12:56 AM
Comment #260903

Yes, talking politics and making brief speeches (what Barack Obama did), is equivalent to holding hedonist parties with fundraisers and lobbyists, with pink boas and mixed drinks. I mean, give me a break. They showed up for their conventions in that Sackcloth and Ashes approach, cancelling speeches, making out like they were a telethon. And why? to make it look like politics was the furthest thing from their minds.

And when people’s backs were turned? Let’s go rock out to the musical stylings of Hookers and Blow! Have elaborate, expensive parties!

Stop projecting, LO. Your people know what they’re doing, and who they’re doing it to.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 2, 2008 12:57 AM
Comment #260904

LO-
When Obama mentioned Bristol Palin, it was to tell reporters to leave her the hell alone. He even invoked his late mother to that end.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 2, 2008 12:58 AM
Comment #260907

The video of repubs partying it up with lobbyist was pretty disguisting, and hearing them say, “yea, he’s been a ‘friend’ of mine for 20 years” was even worse. *cough *nepotism* *cough *bribery* *cough

Whose d* do I have to suck (metaphor) to promote the advancement for ambidextrous kleptomaniacs with freemanic paracusia??? I have my own special interest too!

Posted by: angrymob at September 2, 2008 1:04 AM
Comment #260910

janedoe,

I don’t know why any of us continue trying to make you see beyond your own opinions, but here goes again…

Because you aren’t making a valid point usually. Or not using facts to back up your points. For example:

Neither Palin nor McCain attacked Obama or Biden as they said they wouldn’t. Obama and Biden also promised not to attack McCain and Palin. Except Biden did.

As for Romney, last time I checked he wasn’t a part of the campaign. There were all kinds of people on the Obama side of things attacking McCain, and that was fine, they didn’t say they wouldn’t.

The issue is that Biden couldn’t keep his mouth shut, first saying he was running for President and then attacking McCain, just hours after he said that he wouldn’t.

Posted by: Rhinehold at September 2, 2008 1:10 AM
Comment #260912

Yeah, drink and lobbyiest and congressmen and committeemen peddling influence, it’s disgusting.

Waxman, Lehey, Levin…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UauvX76lxeE

Oh, wait a sec, that was posted a week ago, how is that?

Lobby free my arse.

Posted by: Rhinehold at September 2, 2008 1:15 AM
Comment #260915

Stephen, when a natural disaster threatens—whether near where we live or in some far-flung part of the globe—I’m sure that you and I agree that all of us should spend our days in chastity, abstinence and holy meditation.

Personally, I refrained from drinking, looking at pornography, chewing and smoking tobacco, playing video games and posting on blogs. To do otherwise would be to disrespect the victims. So I certainly did my part (did you?) and I not only EXPECT but DEMAND the same from my political leaders.

It’s not even a question as far as I’m concerned. It’s simply how the world works. Where’s the disagreement here?

Did I mention that Governor Palin has a pregnant daughter? My guess is that the hurricane was sent by God to punish Bristol! In fact, I think they’re confirming as much on the Daily Kos (but I’m sure that you already know that since you practically live over there).

Posted by: Loyal Opposition at September 2, 2008 1:23 AM
Comment #260930

Lobby free my arse.

That was Larry Craig in Idaho. and he charged. That’s why he’s from I-da-Ho.

Sorry couldn’t resist.

Posted by: googlumpuugus at September 2, 2008 2:11 AM
Comment #260935

Stephen Daugherty,

Watch the Bill Maher show. He has a segment this week on the behind closed doors parties between Democrats and K Street. Very damning! Especially for the Democrats who want to throw stones from their glass house.

Both parties are corrupt as hell. That’s why Independent voters now outnumber Democrats, or Republicans, for that matter. With a party as corrupt as Democrats in bed with K-Street millions, it is hard to see whether Obama will have to yield to his Party or fight it every inch of his presidency.

If he has to fight it, then his presidency won’t be much more productive than McCain’s would have been with a Democratically controlled Congress. It is up to you Democrat voters to whip your representatives into line behind Obama’s promises for compromise, bi-partisanship effort, and rejecting the corruption of K-Street.

Seems the Dem. Party is not climbing aboard Obama’s path to negate the K-Street influence, given the private parties with them in Denver. Seems to me, it is the average workers in America that should have privileged access to Democrats during the Convention, not K-Street. And if the Democratic Party is to be the People’s Party, why can’t the DNC raise money the way Obama has, from the average people in America?

Your party has the right candidate, but, your party doesn’t seem to want to follow his lead.

Posted by: David R. Remer at September 2, 2008 3:15 AM
Comment #260936

Loyal Opposition, your remark “(but I’m sure that you already know that since you practically live over there).” is not critiquing the message, but the messenger. Please comply with our Rules for Participation in order to retain your privilege to participate here.

Posted by: WatchBlog Manager at September 2, 2008 3:20 AM
Comment #260945

I’ve heard the right wing media and not a few prominate Republicans mention that Obama might have made a mistake in selecting Biden as a running mate, if only because Biden sometimes gets diarrhea of the mouth. Why are you complaining when he proves that to be true. Joe Biden has opinioins and he voices them at will. Nothing new about that. Relax…if he’d it all in, it would have been out of character, and he’d have exploded. We dems understand his human-ness.

Posted by: Marysdude at September 2, 2008 9:40 AM
Comment #260951

It’s ironic that McCain wants everyone to take their partisan hats off and put their American hats on. What has he really done to help NOLA and the surrounding area since Katrina? Not much other than support an administration that squandered our tax dollars on fat contracts for GOP supporters and not really doing much to help the displaced and poor who lost everything in that storm. I know why he said it - to take attention away from pictures of himself and W on an airport runway having a birthday party while levees were failing in NOLA. It also helped to distract from the fact that no one other than partisan Republicans are excited about the convention or him as the candidate. It also distracted from having the worst president ever endorse his candidacy on live TV (though it looks like this might still happen). Blame the initial failings Katrina on whoever you wish. Gov. Blanco lost her job in part due to her failings that lead a lot of people dying. W has kept his and ran the federal relief effort that was more of the same cronyism that has stained his presidency and though his support, John McCain’s credibility.

It is phony of him to once again trot out his flag and wave it when it all really comes down to bad luck that a storm hit during his convention and he would look really bad if things had gone as scheduled. It also looks like more bad luck for McCain/Palin as Hannah bears down on the East Coast Thursday night as a possible major hurricane.

Posted by: tcsned at September 2, 2008 10:48 AM
Comment #260953

LO-
Look, under most circumstances, I wouldn’t expect Ash and sackcloth. Nor would I realistically expect it from my own party at this point. The trick is, though, your people made a Big Freaking Deal out of how somber and reserved the convention atmosphere would be. Your people made a big deal out of how virtuous and charitable you would be.

So you folks put yourselves on the spot regarding this.

These parties weren’t merely dumb on a level of undermining your message of selflessness, they were dumb on the strategic level of giving an opening to people in my party. What if the storm had gone that much more to the east, and there put stress on the levees to the breaking point. Imagine this report split-screened with a flooded city.

You folks come out with all these counter-accusations and derisive comments on how we’re just expecting too much of you, but in the end, what you’re missing is the all too important question of how the average person will react to this combination of different communications.

You put too much confidence in your rhetoric and talking points to resolve problems created by your own foolish behavior, and that has been the downfall of your party. No message of speech and photo-ops can ultimately compete with a spreading awareness of events in the real world.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 2, 2008 11:02 AM
Comment #260954

David R. Remer-
My intent was not to say that Democrats did not party, or mingle with lobbyists or others. My intent was to point out that the Republicans were merely putting on a show, that their actions once again contradicted their words, their message.

As for how the DNC raises money, Obama banned lobbyist or PAC money from being donated further to the main party organization. Democratic Netroots organizations, if you follow the folks at Daily Kos, are helping fill the coffers of certain candidates, giving the average person a greater voice in our party’s politics. It’s not perfect, but its a great start.

One thing is for certain: not only are Republicans not getting the message, they’re not wanting to get it. The moment they get it, this house of ideological and rhetorical cards they’ve built collapses, and they have to start from the ground up. That has them scared.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 2, 2008 11:11 AM
Comment #260957
It’s ironic that McCain wants everyone to take their partisan hats off and put their American hats on

It’s such BS. The Republican Party no longer knows anything about our Constitution, or what this country is supposed to stand for, or it means to be American.
Look at this video:

Amy Goodman Being Arrested at the RNC Convention.

Clearly wearing her press pass around her neck, you’ll note. Her crime? Trying to go to the aid of her two fellow journalists who were being roughed up by the St. Paul cops as they were being arrested for attempting to document the protesters outside of the convention. Amy’s colleagues were also wearing press passes around their necks while their noses were getting bloodied.

In McBush America, no freedom of the press is allowed. Indeed, the Constitution and everything it stands for is “just a goddamn piece of paper.” Remember folks, while the GOP is busy directing our attention to switching their “hats,” they’re hoping like hell we don’t look down and notice that they’re all wearing jackboots.

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at September 2, 2008 11:27 AM
Comment #260971

Cheap talk, Stephen. You have no evidence whatsoever that the partying occurred before or during the storm’s hit.

However, if you had checked the McCain website anytime yesterday (through which the vast majority of donations are undoubtedly funneled), you would have noticed that the index page was changed to a nonpolitical contribution page for the duration of the day.

What have the Democrats been doing to help?

Posted by: Gandhi at September 2, 2008 1:04 PM
Comment #260973

Stephen D. I accept your point. But, this will be news to me that the DNC and DSCC are declining special interest donations by K-Street lobbyists. I know the Obama campaign has declined, but, I have not seen any evidence that the DNC and DSCC have followed suit.

Posted by: David R. Remer at September 2, 2008 1:10 PM
Comment #260974

Gandhi, funny you should ask. Obama’s camp sent emails out to supporters with a link to donate NOT to the Obama campaign, but, to Gustav victims.

Sorry, no trump card for McCain. Just politics as usual.

Posted by: David R. Remer at September 2, 2008 1:18 PM
Comment #260975

I’d say that’s truly putting your money where your mouth is. Good for him (them) !

Posted by: janedoe at September 2, 2008 1:22 PM
Comment #260976

Gandhi - have even bothered to go to Obama’s official website at the very top there is a link to give aid to storm victims. It goes directly to sites with charities helping with relief. On McCain site there is a speech by Cindy McCain and a link that looks like it will take you to a place to donate but it takes you to a transcript of Mrs. McCain’s speech then a link.

So, to answer your question, they both did about the same thing. What did McCain do during Katrina? Eat cake?

Posted by: tcsned at September 2, 2008 1:29 PM
Comment #260980


I was going to recomend that everyone read the link posted by John but, it disappeared while I was reading the link.

“Your party has the right candidate, but, your party doesn’t seem to want to follow his lead.”

I sadly feel that this opinion is based on the campaign retoric of a profession politician and a great desire to believe that finally, we have someone that want’s to do things right.

Irreguardless of Obama’s refusal to accept corporate lobby money, he is receiving substancial amounts from the corporations. An example, McCain’s campaign has received $1.4 million from oil companies. Obama has only gotten $450,000. I am sure that other corporations have contributed more to Obama that McCain.

Even if we were to take Obama at his word, we must remember that should he become president, Reid and Pelosi will be the two most powerful politicians in Washington. Obama will not try to hold their feet to the fire. If he did, he would probably become another Jimmy Carter.

Electing Obama will not change the way business is conducted in Washington.

Posted by: jlw at September 2, 2008 1:41 PM
Comment #260981

tcsned, Obama’s front page on the website has been altered to show the storm issues, not his political ones. Some may think that is “hokie”, but to me at least, it shows that his interests are in the right place…with the people.
And you’re right about McCain’s site….mostly about Cindy and Laura, with the storm victims as pretty much an afterthought.
You know, I really hate anyone to jump that I’m bashing Laura, because I feel she is the best of the Bush bunch..! Well, papa has kind of distanced himself, at least publicly, from shrub…

Posted by: janedoe at September 2, 2008 1:43 PM
Comment #260983

jlw,

Good catch, using the same information that Obama wants to use about the 95% support for Bush by McCain, the fact is that Obama voted 98-99% with the Democratic leadership.

I don’t see any evidence that he has any intention of breaking with his own party if he feels he needs to, other than accepting money from big oil and then saying he isn’t.

Posted by: Rhinehold at September 2, 2008 1:59 PM
Comment #260985

I am shocked, shocked I tell you at the video you linked. People enjoying themselves after hours…how dare they. If only they would have placed a fish-bowl on the bar for out of pocket donations all would have been forgiven. I FEEL betrayed, I FEEL outrage, I FEEL therefore I must become a liberal.

Posted by: Jim M at September 2, 2008 2:11 PM
Comment #260986

janedoe - you can be “hokie” any time - as I have been a Hokie (VA Tech) for 24 years. I agree about L. Bush - she was a teacher though her adult literacy project (W) hasn’t quite worked out ;)

Posted by: tcsned at September 2, 2008 2:13 PM
Comment #260988

Jim M. - glad to have you on board - you can make your check out to Obama for Presi …

;)

Posted by: tcsned at September 2, 2008 2:20 PM
Comment #260990


VV: The city of St. Paul received a $50 million federal grant for security and other purposes. The St. Paul police chief announced that $34 million would paid to 3,500 police officers for providing security during the convention. If that is true, it amounts to nearly $10,000 per officer.

The police dept. announced that 284 protesters had been arrested so far, most of them for staging a sit down protest. Some self-proclaimed anarchists were also arrested for damaging or destroying property. The dept. announced that all of those arrested would be charged with one or more offences and that 130 would be charged with felonies.

If Goodman happened to touch or grab the arm of an officer, I believe that could be construed as felony assult on a police officer.

I wonder if Fox News managed to get good footage of those nasty liberal anarchists rioting. Throw in some right wing propaganda and this could be turned into a Haymarket event.

Posted by: jlw at September 2, 2008 2:28 PM
Comment #260993

“that their actions once again contradicted their words, their message”

Like being filthy stinking rich and complaining how nobody cares about the poor?
Like living in a mansion and being carted around in limo’s and jets, while complaining about global warming?
Like having armed security to protect yourself, while writing and voting to deny the average American the same?
Like being for women to have the choice to end a life, but being against all Americans having the choice on how to spend the money they earn?

Yeah, those damn Republicans sure are hypocrites.

Posted by: kctim at September 2, 2008 2:44 PM
Comment #260997

kctim -

like being for freedom and being for torture, illegal wiretapping, and dumping habeas corpus?

‘nuff said

Posted by: tcsned at September 2, 2008 2:53 PM
Comment #260998


The hardest thing for any politician to do these day’s is to not plagiarize anothers political speech. It has all been said before.

If you truely believe that the American train is on the wrong track, headed to the wrong destination, and if you truely believe that significant changes are need to get us headed toward the right destination, then the worst thing you can possibly do is continue to enable the duopoly.

Posted by: jlw at September 2, 2008 2:54 PM
Comment #261002

My list affects Americans and yours terrorists, Tom. Forgive me for not caring about non-Americans or who is having a good time during a hurricane when determining whom to vote for.

Posted by: kctim at September 2, 2008 3:19 PM
Comment #261005

kctim - it affected a lot of innocent people. Innocent people are innocent people - their nationality has nothing to do with how un-American abusing them is.

If all you care about is Americans how bout this:
they claim to be for the troops yet they cut their benefits, deny them care, and put them in harms way for a stupid reason?

Posted by: tcsned at September 2, 2008 3:26 PM
Comment #261012

Tom
I base who I vote for on their respect of our Constitution and how they will affect American citizens.
Choosing between the guy who doesn’t want us listening to non-American terrorist phone calls and the guy who doesn’t respect the 2nd Amendment rights of all Americans, isn’t really that hard for me.

From the earliest I can remember, I wanted to serve my country and I joined the USAF in hopes of completing that dream. I excelled in every aspect of my career and still, after almost 10 years, threw it all away in 1996. Why? Because my benefits were cut, my fellow soldiers were denied care and we were put in harms way for stupid reasons.
Both sides “claim” to be for the troops, one side is just more for us, that is why they normally get most of our votes.

A better example of Republican hypocrisy would be social programs, guns and lower taxes. They rail against social programs and gun control, but don’t really do anything significant to change. They complain about high taxes, but only give modest tax cuts, sometimes.
Some showing a lack of worry because of a hurricane? Please.

Posted by: kctim at September 2, 2008 3:53 PM
Comment #261017

kctim -
It’s tough to say that the GOP is more for the troops when they have done so much to weaken the military for the reasons outlined above and the fact that it really looks like they are trying to totally privatize the Army with mercenaries like Blackwater and farming out supply to KBR. How is a soldier to feel when he or she enlists out of patriotism and duty to their country and then they see these guys running rampant, above the law, undermining their credibility, and getting paid several times what the soldier makes. How is that supporting the troops?

Posted by: tcsned at September 2, 2008 4:25 PM
Comment #261019

Stephen
“Logically speaking, your defense for Sarah Palin’s inexperience is that Obama is inexperienced, too.”

I have not defended Palin’s inexperience, only stated that Obama is to inexperienced to be President. Logically speaking, the only fallacy is in you comparing your Presidential candidates experience with the experience of the oppositions pick for Vice President.
Why? Because you are trying to discount the fact that Obama isn’t really the most qualified to be President. But since he shares your views, his inexperience doesn’t matter.

Let’s see, being part of a Secessionist Alaskan party or being part of an America is bad and white people are evil group? I don’t know Stephen, being a typical white person who clings to things and is ignorant, I may wait until I know more about this secessionist party and compare it to the rantings I’ve heard from the other group.

You know what the worst thing about all this is Stephen? If Palin isn’t qualified, I’ll admit it. Something you would never do because of ideology.

Posted by: kctim at September 2, 2008 4:36 PM
Comment #261023

“Jim M. - glad to have you on board - you can make your check out to Obama for Presi …” Posted by: tcsned at September 2, 2008 02:20 PM

tcsned…don’t get to anxious, to finish my remark, “I FEEL betrayed, I FEEL outrage, I FEEL therefore I must become a liberal”, I must add, I THINK, therefore I must remain a conservative. Sorry, Jim

Posted by: Jim M at September 2, 2008 4:43 PM
Comment #261027

Jim,
I would rather talk to a thinking conservative than a non-thinking liberal any day (not that there aren’t a plethora of non-thinkers on all sides of the spectrum).

I must also add, I think therefore I am liberal.

Posted by: tcsned at September 2, 2008 5:15 PM
Comment #261029

Not sure of ABC’s proof on the hookers and blow but was Bill Clinton in MN last night?
Seriously tho, are the Dems getting holier than though? Are they claiming that they would have just gone back tot heir hotel rooms and prayed had they been in the same situation with Gustav. B.S.

Posted by: smokey at September 2, 2008 5:18 PM
Comment #261043

>Not sure of ABC’s proof on the hookers and blow but was Bill Clinton in MN last night?
Seriously tho, are the Dems getting holier than though? Are they claiming that they would have just gone back tot heir hotel rooms and prayed had they been in the same situation with Gustav. B.S.

Posted by: smokey at September 2, 2008 05:18 PM

smokey,

Not the point. Repugs SAID they were going to pray instead of continue with the convention in conventional ways…partying is conventioning in a conventional way…hence the uproar over the partying. Either in or out but not in and out…

Posted by: Marysdude at September 2, 2008 6:27 PM
Comment #261050

When JMcC was on with Chris Wallace on Sunday, he said that appearing on his show on Fux should be Palin’s first appearance, so I guess they will still be the favored forum if JMcC is elected.

On the band with the unfortunate name, I thought Rpblcns all prefererred country music and square dancing. Someone actually said to me on Sunday that the reason that hurricanes come to New Orleans, is becuase of gay decadence, which god doesn’t like, and god makes hurricanes to punish sinners. She had just come from church, which makes me wonder what goes on in these churches. I guess they must have been pretty sinful in Myanmar too.

Posted by: ohrealy at September 2, 2008 7:03 PM
Comment #261053

BTW,

It appears that the McCain camp is not going to let the charge that Palin wasn’t ‘vetted’ stand.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=N2EyM2Q2NjYxZmUxMzgxNTYwMjAwZDk3MmE2NGNmNjY=

Does the left seriously think that a nationally run campaign (I think that McCain has been in one or two) didn’t do any vetting of a VP candidate?

You would think that they would have learned by now to attack on substance, not slime, but learning from their mistakes is not something that political hacks, from any party, seem to be able to do.

Posted by: Rhinehold at September 2, 2008 7:40 PM
Comment #261054

Rats, wrong article, nevermind me as I go post in the appropriate one.

Posted by: Rhinehold at September 2, 2008 7:41 PM
Comment #261056

Obama is going to win the election. It’s ok for you republicans on this thread. You had your turn running the government and it’s time to admit that the results of the last eight years have been less than average. We democrats have experienced this losing feeling for the last two elections so we know what you must be going through. However, don’t go away mad, just go away. Go Obama!

Posted by: tom at September 2, 2008 7:53 PM
Comment #261057
My intent was not to say that Democrats did not party, or mingle with lobbyists or others. My intent was to point out that the Republicans were merely putting on a show, that their actions once again contradicted their words, their message.

As for how the DNC raises money, Obama banned lobbyist or PAC money from being donated further to the main party organization. Democratic Netroots organizations, if you follow the folks at Daily Kos, are helping fill the coffers of certain candidates, giving the average person a greater voice in our party’s politics. It’s not perfect, but its a great start.

One thing is for certain: not only are Republicans not getting the message, they’re not wanting to get it. The moment they get it, this house of ideological and rhetorical cards they’ve built collapses, and they have to start from the ground up. That has them scared.

Stephen, I am sure that in the spirit of being fair and balanced you had every intention of posting the money trail video from the Democratic convention. Guess it just slipped your mind.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UauvX76lxeE

Posted by: Kirk at September 2, 2008 7:54 PM
Comment #261058

Convention has begun, in a venue that is very small. Commentators remarking on that, but adding that even small, “if” it will fill up, would have the appearance of more attendees.

XcelEnergyCenter

The arena contains four spectator levels: one suite level, and three general seating levels named the 100 level, the club level, and the 200 level. Its official capacity is 18,064.

from Wikipedia

Posted by: janedoe at September 2, 2008 7:57 PM
Comment #261060

VV,

It’s such BS. The Democratic Party no longer knows anything about our Constitution, or what this country is supposed to stand for, or it means to be American.
Look at this video:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=v3JE5WUBWZQ

and this

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Conventions/story?id=5668622&page=1

Clearly wearing his press pass around his neck, you’ll note. His crime? Trying to take photos of Democratic Senators and Fat Cat Donors leaving a meeting in an exclusive Denver hotel Asa is shoved into oncoming traffic and told that the sidewalk belongs to the hotel.

In Obama America, no freedom of the press is allowed. Indeed, the Constitution and everything it stands for is just “goddamn America.” Remember folks, while the DNC is busy directing our attention to switching their sheeps clothing, they’re hoping like hell we don’t look down and notice that they’re all wearing jackboots.

Posted by: Kirk at September 2, 2008 8:06 PM
Comment #261064

kctim posted:
My list affects Americans and yours terrorists, Tom. Forgive me for not caring about non-Americans or who is having a good time during a hurricane when determining whom to vote for.

BS kctim
the Emperor Bush’s jack boots have hit AMERICAN CITIZENS. We had an innocent (actually several) AMERICAN CITIZENs here in Portland, arrested and sent to Gitmo — one of them was eventually released due to the efforts of his lawyer, but in SPITE of all the obstacles put up by the Govt.
the other ones are working for his release
They all had their hapeous corpus rights violated (among other constitutional guarantees) — NOT those violations are NOT for terrorists, they have been visited on INNOCENT AMERICAN Citizens!!

Posted by: Russ at September 2, 2008 8:26 PM
Comment #261073
We had an innocent (actually several) AMERICAN CITIZENs here in Portland, arrested and sent to Gitmo

Details and links please? When is the lawsuit going to being?

Posted by: Rhinehold at September 2, 2008 8:59 PM
Comment #261095

Kirk,
If you think for some bizarre reason that a progressive like myself would be for jack-booted thuggery of ANY sort, then you’d be DEAD WRONG.
I stand angrily against this kind of treatment being directed toward ANY American journalist — because Freedom Of The Press is a First Amendment Right. And, because of the First Amendment, I also stand against such treatment toward ANY American citizen who wants to non-violently protest.
I honestly don’t give a rats ass whether the journalists or protesters are investigating into, or demonstrating against, Democrats or Republicans. Indeed, such details are beside the point.

Trouble is, it is the Republican Party that has brought us this kind of ever increasing and wide-spread abuse of power in America. And I know that this needs to CHANGE, because it is completely and totally UN-AMERICAN. And, I also know that we’re never, ever, going get the kind of change that is needed to protect our Constitutional Rights with four more years of McSame.

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at September 2, 2008 10:11 PM
Comment #261103

Jim M-
The whole point of the subdued nature of the convention after that was to appear not to be celebrating while people suffered the ravages of the storm. The PR was constructed, for your own political benefit, to make the party look more caring, more charitable.

But when the cameras aren’t on you, were you helping to arrange help and supplies, running donation centers? No. It was window dressing. When America’s cameras didn’t seem to be on you, you folks partied like it was 1999.

If you’re going to play the role of Good Samaritans, be method about it. Immerse yourself in the reality of what you’re doing, instead of throwing some PR over your typical behavior.

kctim-
People like you bring up these principles not to support them, but to knock them down, to cloud the debate for reasonable measures to improve things. That’s the real hypocrisy.

I want my filthy rich to do things for the poor. I want those who live in mansions retrofitted with energy conserving devices and hooked up to renewable power generation to go out there and try to zero out their carbon emissions, which today’s technology imposes on nearly all travellers.

I want those with armed security to sign laws that keep guns out of the hands of criminals, but let sportsmen and homeowners have weapons for defnese.

And if you want to keep all the money you earn, there’s not a nation on earth that can help you. It’s a reality we run from too much.

Rather than be torn into peaces by useless divisions, what about compromises, what about helping each other, instead of constantly punching and clawing for advantage and doing nothing else? What about being concerned, rather than stubbornly obdurant about the welfare of our environment?

I’m tired of Americans feeling muddled, burdened and obsolete. We need that old spirit we had once, where we knew we could achieve great things apart, but also great things together, where Americans could share ambitions, as well as nurse their own.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 2, 2008 10:37 PM
Comment #261106

SD,

I’m sure you missed the part of the report where it said that many of the parties were collecting money for hurricane relief and admittedly narrowed in on one singular party that they attended, right?

Otherwise it would make most of your points seem rather foolish.

Rather than be torn into peaces by useless divisions, what about compromises

You’re expecting this fromt he man who voted with his party in the Senate 97% of the time?

Posted by: Rhinehold at September 2, 2008 10:41 PM
Comment #261109

Rhinehold-
Look man, stop trying to pick a fight with me. I’m not so much the idealist that I think I’m starting from perfection here with my party. But like I said to David, at least some people in this party get it. The Republicans simply don’t want to.

As for Lobbyists? I understand that. Realistically, why wouldn’t they be there. They’re in Washington. They’d follow the party out West, naturally. And it does make me sad. It’s a compromise of the ideals. But really, this is the most improvement I’ve seen in decades. And I don’t see that kind of improvement coming from the other side at all. The Worst of the Democrats at least have to pretend that they’re not tools of the lobbyists. And at the very least, these people ask questions, rather than simply turning over their law-writing to lobbyists.

Now folks can talk about duopolies, but do know what I would think would happen if the party was just replaced with another? Same, damn, thing. Why? Because power has always attracted those seeking favors from the powerful.

The Republicans swept in promising change, and just changed things for the worse. In my opinion, it is not purely a change of party that will purify our government of corruption, but a concerted, involved attitude towards government, and what we call on our government to do.

Something philosophically about the Republicans and others on the right makes them more passive about how they deal with government. If you think, by necessity, that big government will fail, then what’s the point of trying to improve things? And so somebody walks up to you, and tells you that they’ll shrink government, that they’ll get it out of your lives. And so, many Republicans and others on the right left them alone, and defended them willingly against the demands of accountability from the press and the Right.

Noninvolvement, though, means, you’re not placing pressure on these people to do things your way. No matter how many lobbyists they talk to, they can lose their job if you and people like you get pissed off. When people just walk away, curse them under their breath and say “that’s government” that’s when these gilded age style politicians do their worst.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 2, 2008 10:56 PM
Comment #261112

More Jack-booted Thuggery in McBush’s America:

I ask you fellow citizens, in your considered opinion, did this protester really need to be tasered?

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at September 2, 2008 11:20 PM
Comment #261124

VV,

I agree, let’s work to get rid of the St. Paul mayor…

You know, Chris Coleman, Democrat, campaigned with John Kerry in 2004?

I’m not sure where Bush fits in though… was they mayor not wearing his tinfoil hat today?

“Our thoughts and prayers are with those on the Gulf Coast, and we hope for the best for all those affected by Hurricane Gustav. In the coming days, we are also prepared to show the world the results of more than two years of planning for the Republican National Convention. Today’s announcement does not change our intent to host a safe and successful convention. Our role is to provide security for visitors, delegates, and those who have come to Saint Paul to peacefully express their first amendment rights. We anticipate any changes to the program of the convention to have a minimal effect on our operations.
Posted by: Rhinehold at September 2, 2008 11:51 PM
Comment #261128

Rhinehold:

I’m not sure where Bush fits in though

Yes, you do. But the endless contrarian games you enjoy playing with everyone in this blog is certain to get in the way of seeing any points I might make in rebutal, so I won’t bother.
I’m long past feeding that particular brand of trollery.

Posted by: Veritas Vincit at September 3, 2008 12:08 AM
Comment #261140

VV,

Yes, you do.

No, no I don’t or I wouldn’t have stated I did. I mean what I say.

But the endless contrarian games you enjoy playing with everyone in this blog is certain to get in the way of seeing any points I might make in rebutal, so I won’t bother.

You can’t defend your statement so you are going to pretend there is nothing to defend.

I’m long past feeding that particular brand of trollery.

Good on ya. I hate it when people pick apart everything I say too when I’m being mean-spirited in attacking someone I know nothing about and don’t care about while calling on everyone else to be reasonable people (ie, my opponents).

So much easier to just say what I want without backing it up.

BTW, if you had made a point, it would have been easier to actually attack it. As it was, you just complained that someone got tazered and I agreed that it was uncalled for. But I still don’t know what it has to do with Bush …

Posted by: Rhinehold at September 3, 2008 12:38 AM
Comment #261178

Tom
Sorry about that, work called yesterday and had to bolt.

“It’s tough to say that the GOP is more for the troops”

But judging by the elections, they are viewed as such, right?
Civilians work side by side military on most bases and for better pay. Sure it sucks to have a guy making more than you for doing the same thing, but it is nothing new. Smart people know better than to join the military if they are looking to make tons of money anyways.
Thats a losing tactic to use to try for more of their votes, just like acting as if the Republicans are the only hypocrites is.

Posted by: kctim at September 3, 2008 9:31 AM
Comment #261185

Stephen
“People like me” bring up these principles because they are perfect examples of ones actions not matching their message. Much as you claim is the reason for this post. Why is my pointing this out, “clouding the debate,” but yours justified?

You say you want your “filthy rich to do things for the poor,” but if they share your politics, you do not hold them accountable for not doing so.
You want “those who live in mansions retrofitted with energy conserving devices,” but you give them a pass if they share your politics and give it lip service.
You want “those with armed security to sign laws that keep guns out of the hands of criminals, but let sportsmen and homeowners have weapons for defnese,” but support a party that favors rewritting the 2nd Amendment to say what they want it to say and make it harder for us to own such arms.

Nobody with any common sense believes they can keep all the money they earn and have a functioning govt. But, there used to be a country whose people only paid taxes to keep their representitive govt running govt instead of paying govt to run their lives, and it worked pretty well.

You talk about compromise but you support a candidate whose beliefs and votes do not show it. You support compromise only as long as the outcome favors your beliefs, not anothers rights.

That “old spirit” we once had, was based on respect, Stephen, and respect is never a one-way street.
You can’t expect me to respect your rights when you do not respect mine, that creates the division you mention.
I respect your right to choose to help, you respect my right to choose not to help. That is respect and that is how we achieve great things together.

You talk a good game Stephen, but like Obama, your actions do not support your message.

Posted by: kctim at September 3, 2008 10:14 AM
Comment #261235

kctim-
I’m not going to call you naive, but do you know the people who bring up these talking points first? Often enough, it’s politicians and thinktank members whose sole purpose is to rationalize the behavior.

When they try to portray rich people worrying about the poor as hypocrites, why do they do that? So their rich people don’t have to. Class warfare against the poor is legitimized as everybody being in their proper places.

When they do their numbers on Gore and people like him, their goal is to portray the fossil fuel use as a fact of life that they are too foolish to get use to. They aren’t talking about the carbon footprint with a mind to treating it as a problem to be solved. They’re simply trying to sap people’s motivation to move to new energy sources.

As for this whole gun thing? That NRA has you people so scared its unbelieveable. It used to be that those people just represented the interests of gun owners. All it really does now is make sure that gun companies can sell just as much of what they manufacture as possible, regardless of how much of a danger it poses to the average person, or how little use it actually has for home defense or hunting. If you folks would compromise for the sake of public safety, you’d have a much better bargaining position. Unfortunately, like so many Right-Wing Organizations, it’s all or nothing.

The respect your folks seem to ask is not so much respect as blind agreement. Even one jot away from orthodoxy, and we’re bashed as evil liberals for it. Just about every issue is argued with liberals ending the world if they get their way.

It’s tiring. It’s insulting. You folks have to realize that we’re not as hostile as you think, and we are hostile, hostility in return doesn’t do much good. The net effect of the culture war is that nobody has won except the irresponsible politicians who advocate it.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 3, 2008 1:54 PM
Comment #261252

Stephen
Yes, I understand where talking points come from and their intended purpose. But, do you understand why they are so effective? Because people are already thinking along those lines. We don’t need talking points to already be questioning why the hell michael moore wants govt to force us to help feed and shelter the poor when his fat ass has millions of dollars he could be using to support his own beliefs. We don’t need talking points to tell us to question why gore preaches about the evils of carbon but yet owns an estate, rides in jets and limo’s and owns part of a carbon company.
They may be trying to sap motivation, but that doesn’t negate the points.

“As for this whole gun thing? That NRA has you people so scared its unbelieveable”

Just another example of how little you understand and refuse to respect the other side Stephen.
If it was “all or nothing,” as you say, the 2nd Amendment would still be intact. But lets look at the “compromise” liberals offer and force onto everybody.
Large urban areas have a gang problem, how do they handle it? They want laws restricting the 2nd Amendment rights of every American citizen. They get that, but are they happy? Nope. Next, they want every American citizen to prove they are innocent first and register with the govt in order to exercise their 2nd Amendment right. They get that, but are they happy? Nope. So now they want to dictate what firearms are ok for hunting and ban all the others. Are they happy? Nope.

How did we get to this point? By preying off peoples feelings and fear. Much as you did here by acting like guns, not their owners, pose the danger and by acting like you know what type of weapon is best for everybody for home defense or hunting.

You are bashed as evil liberals because your “solutions” affect individual rights and freedoms, Stephen. If you were to actually listen to people with differing beliefs, you would know that they do not believe liberals are going to end the world, just our Constitutional Republic which was founded on individual freedoms.

“The net effect of the culture war is that nobody has won except the irresponsible politicians who advocate it.”

Who get away with everything they do because people are only willing to fight for the rights and freedoms they care about.
You don’t give a crap about guns, so infringing on someone else’s right to own one is not worth fighting for. Others don’t give a crap about having their phone calls listened to, so violating someone else’s right to privacy is not worth fighting for if it stops terrorists.

Posted by: kctim at September 3, 2008 2:49 PM
Comment #261264

Stephen says, “Unfortunately, like so many Right-Wing Organizations, it’s all or nothing.”

Stephen speaks of a compromise that sounds more like capitulation to me. For conservatives some values do represent an all or nothing position. Give me liberty or death comes to mind. Individual freedom versus group rights comes to mind. The means to protect my own home, family and person against those who would do me harm comes to mind. The right to keep the fruits of my labor from government plunder comes to mind. And finally, drill here, drill now as a bridge to the new energy technology comes to mind.

Posted by: Jim M at September 3, 2008 3:34 PM
Comment #261339

kctim -

Ah, those precious INDIVIDUAL FREEDOMS! Like Habeus Corpus, perhaps? Or how about freedom from unwarranted search and seizure? And how about freedom from being jailed for years without trial or even access to a lawyer?

These are all freedoms that your Bush took away.

But of course these are only little things compared to the SECOND AMENDMENT that is the holy-of-holies to conservatives.

What you don’t get, kctim, is that most of us Dems do NOT want to get rid of all guns - that’s every bit as impossible as getting rid of all illegal aliens. What we DO want to do is ensure that each owner is properly trained and licensed, and that each firearm is tracked so that we can better track down criminals.

TELL YOU WHAT - can you name even ONE country that has our freedom of gun ownership (or even a freer level) where the rate of gun-related crimes is low? Hint: there ain’t one. Switzerland regulates their firearms to the same standard I described above, and Israel’s much stricter.

If you want complete freedom of gun ownership, then you can move to the Sudan.

Posted by: Glenn Contrarian at September 4, 2008 12:01 AM
Comment #261375
Yes, I understand where talking points come from and their intended purpose. But, do you understand why they are so effective? Because people are already thinking along those lines. We don’t need talking points to already be questioning why the hell michael moore wants govt to force us to help feed and shelter the poor when his fat ass has millions of dollars he could be using to support his own beliefs. We don’t need talking points to tell us to question why gore preaches about the evils of carbon but yet owns an estate, rides in jets and limo’s and owns part of a carbon company. They may be trying to sap motivation, but that doesn’t negate the points.

I understand why they’re effective. I’m a writer who has thought long and hard about words. And my sense of talking points is that persuasiveness and truth are not always united in the same cause. You can play on people’s feelings and their ignorance to seductively convince them of something that isn’t true.

The talking points I mention are ad hominem attacks. Rather than argue with helping people out. conserving energy and reducing carbon emissions, they make character attacks on people. Let me tell you though, the economics of what damage happens to the economy when tons of poor people become unable to sustain themselves will occur whether or not Moore is a charitable man. And climate change will affect our weather with little regard for Gore’s real or (for the most part) imagined hypocrisy. These arguments are red herrings, rhetorical constructs that shouldn’t be given the crediblity they are.

Americans have been very willing to settle for minimum gun control, but you can’t dismiss the need for some regulation, some safeguards for people. Folks might not be happy, but when is anybody ever completely happy. Sometimes you have to make an unhappy compromise to keep a happier situation in life.

If you want to take emotions out of the equation, it helps not to put them in yourself from the outset. It helps to deal with the real issues. Are there kinds of ammunition, perhaps, that do terrible damage to people, or pierce body armor, that aren’t really needed for a person defending their home or hunting in the country? Ban it, then. Let’s say, though, that there’s a regulation that doesn’t make sense. Well, you might get a better response, having compromised from those people, if you publically give a reasonable, thoughtful answer to the question of why the restriction should be lifted.

The trouble with the way the Modern Right approaches politics, is the belief that you have to beat people over the head to get what you want. In the long run, If you can’t argue something reasonably to people, either you aren’t the best advocate, or you’re not advocating something with the right strength of validity and soundness,

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 4, 2008 1:16 AM
Comment #261383
If you think for some bizarre reason that a progressive like myself would be for jack-booted thuggery of ANY sort, then you’d be DEAD WRONG. I stand angrily against this kind of treatment being directed toward ANY American journalist — because Freedom Of The Press is a First Amendment Right. And, because of the First Amendment, I also stand against such treatment toward ANY American citizen who wants to non-violently protest. I honestly don’t give a rats ass whether the journalists or protesters are investigating into, or demonstrating against, Democrats or Republicans. Indeed, such details are beside the point.

Trouble is, it is the Republican Party that has brought us this kind of ever increasing and wide-spread abuse of power in America. And I know that this needs to CHANGE, because it is completely and totally UN-AMERICAN. And, I also know that we’re never, ever, going get the kind of change that is needed to protect our Constitutional Rights with four more years of McSame.

Progressive - Isn’t that code speak for Liberal? Yeah I think it is as proven by your posts.


Posted by: Kirk at September 4, 2008 1:45 AM
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