Democrats & Liberals Archives

I'm For It and Against It

Remember how the Republicans attacked Kerry during the last presidential campaign after he said, “I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it”? They called him a flip-flopper. Well, John McCain beats him when he in essence says, “I am for it and against it at the same time.” What would you call him?

The issue is equal pay for women as well as men. After the Supreme Court ruled that a female employee can not sue for equal pay after 180 days, Democrats decided to change the law. Briefly, this is what happened:

Lilly Ledbetter sued Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. in Gadsden, Ala., six months before retiring in 1998, after she had found documents showing that she earned as much as 40% less per month than male managers of her same position..... Senate Democrats failed Wednesday to overcome a threatened Republican filibuster... of a bill that would loosen the restrictions on the length of time in which workers could file pay discrimination claims against their employers.

The 56-42 vote was split largely along party lines. John McCain of Arizona, did not vote.

McCain made this statement:

I am all in favor of pay equity for women, but this kind of legislation, as is typical of what's being proposed by my friends on the other side of the aisle, opens us up to lawsuits for all kinds of problems. This is government playing a much, much greater role in the business of a private enterprise system.

Yes, I believe in equal pay for women, but not in interference with any company that is not disposed to do it. I'm for it but not for legislation that will accomplish it.

I am for it and I'm against it at the same time.

Posted by Paul Siegel at April 24, 2008 5:11 PM
Comment #251362

wtf im with mcCain im with stuff but also against it at the same time like with euthinasia it should be legal but doctors shouldn’t do i mean why should some men in washington deside if you can live or die so im with it but i think that blue juice is horrible horrible sin so no one should do it so go McCain you like some parts of life right and hate others so it the same thing

Posted by: bob at April 24, 2008 8:00 PM
Comment #251370

The reason we have limitations on such things is because over time memories fade (or are altered); evidence is lost; context is confused and people with important information retire, move on or even die.

It would be very difficult to defend yourself against an old accusaton, especially since these sorts of cases often involve intent and state of mind. I hire lots of people. If you ask me today why I hired Mr. X and not Mr. Y last week, I can give you a good explanation. If you ask next year, my memory will not be as good.

This idea that the Dems want to be able to sue at any time is silly.

McCain is right on both counts. Equal pay for equal work is an imporant part of justice. Being reasonably free from being dragging into court for something someone thinks he may remember you did a long time ago is also an important part of justice.

The Dems want to make the courts like casinos. Justice is too imporant a thing for that.

Posted by: Jack at April 24, 2008 9:48 PM
Comment #251390

As is evident here we again have corporations who won’t play fair. If private enterprise would step up to the plate and do the right thing-govt intervention would not be required. It is only because private enterprise is only in it for the almighty dollar and can’t do the right and moral thing if their lives depended on it-that we continue to have to have govt intervention forcing corporations to play by fair rules.

If the shoe was on the other foot and it was men getting the shaft, there would be a different tune being sung. I am not infavor of unnecessary lawsuits but sometimes the only way to impact corporations is to hit their pocketbook.

As for McCain, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. His party was the one that set up the either you are for it or you are against it criteria and now he doesn’t want to be judged by the standards they set. Too BAD!!!!

Democrats are long past putting up with this crap and taking it without saying a word. Its time we hold all republicans to the same standard that they have been trying to place on liberals and democrats for years now. McCain is not womans best friend and lets don’t forget that in November.

Posted by: Carolina at April 25, 2008 7:50 AM
Comment #251397


A couple of years ago, where I worked in the government, the median woman got the the top working rank in 11 years. The median for men was 16 years. When I mentioned that, the person at HR said, “we value our pale males too.” It was supposed to be a joke.

When I got my MBA, some firms interviewed ALL the women before the first man. General Mills offered one of my female collegues a job the day before I had my first interview for the same position. Sh*t happens on both sides.

You know that a majority of college students today are women. Maybe we need an affirmative action program to get more men into top universities.

You know that if as many men as women were affected by prostate cancer, it would have a lot more money thrown at it. Wait…

As Mccain said, equal pay is an important. But you cannot make the courts into casinos.

Maybe I could sue over that ten year old slight.

Posted by: Jack at April 25, 2008 9:32 AM
Comment #251403

What’s new?

That’s what most (if not all) politicians do - they try to be on all sides of an issue.

McCain has flip-flopped on MLK, the economy, illegal immigration (says he now “gets it”), term-limits, Petraus driving in unarmed vehicles, etc.). It is interesting how so many revelations can suddenly occur when one is running for office, eh?

And what about the majority of voters who give Congress dismally low approval ratings, but then repeatedly reward irresponsible incumbent politicians for all of this with 93%-to-99%93%-to-99% re-election rates?

So, who is really “for” and “against” a LOT of things?

Posted by: d.a.n at April 25, 2008 10:52 AM
Comment #251415

This is a laughable post…
Trying to compare McCain to John Kerry?
Not even close…

McCain is saying that the idea is good but the law the the Dems want to pass is just plain stupid. I wish he would have just said it that way.

BTW - The Dems do it all the time…stupid legislation like MLK, the economy, illegal immigration, term limits, etc. The big idea is beyond reproach, but no one is allowed to look under the covers.

Posted by: cliff at April 25, 2008 12:00 PM
Comment #251466


I don’t even know how to begin to respond to your post. I am just amazed that you are suggesting that men and women get crapped on equally. Women get crapped on a lot more frequently. Yes many colleges and universities are beginning to try to find ways to practice a form of affirmative action just to keep up the numbers of young men getting into colleges but that isn’t because women and asians are being given a preference that is because they are working harder to get into college. No one realized that when colleges and Universities dropped affirmative action and started only allowing in students that truly qualified it would mean fewer young men. Now colleges and universities are worried because their enrollment of young men is down-who’s fault is that-the young men-who aren’t trying hard enough to get into college.

One last thought-when I was applying to colleges (1970s) girls had to have a higher score on SATs to get in because we already knew then that if we had a level playing field that there would be more girls than boys in college and lord knows we all knew that boys deserved a college education more than girls. Yes things have improved but to suggest that sh** happens to both some how excuses the mistreatment and demeaning of women is in itself inexcusable.

Posted by: Carolina at April 25, 2008 10:04 PM
Comment #251473


Affirmative action has meant that men also get crapped upon (your term). I don’t have a problem with merely using SAT scores and grades to choose college applicants. It is the affirmative action programs that destroyed this. I wish it would return.

Women with similar experience make about the same as men. Women with engineering degrees make more than men with similar engineering degrees.

Women are more likey to take courses in history, sociology etc. These fields pay less. They are more likely to take time off from work, so they have less experience. These are choices women make. It might make their quality of life higher, but it impacts earning potential.

I have an MA in history and an MBA. My MA in history was very rewarding, but I think it has negative value in a job search. More women have liberal arts degrees. My MBA was worth a lot. The person with an MA in history “suffers unfairly” in comparison to the person with an MBA. So what?

I wrote a whole post on why women, on average, earn less than men. Discrimination is not the primary reason, BTW.

Posted by: Jack at April 26, 2008 1:36 AM
Comment #251474

enough said: I think it is time to agree to disagree. Obviously we see this whole issue differently.

Posted by: Carolina at April 26, 2008 7:29 AM
Comment #251475

sorry my last post was for Jack

Posted by: Carolina at April 26, 2008 7:31 AM
Comment #251478


Thanks. You seem a reasonable person.

Posted by: Jack at April 26, 2008 8:44 AM
Comment #251489

Affirmative action for women and minorities has been very annoying to many people for more than 30 years.

In Florida, I took all the exams for all the state jobs, to get a friend to take those exams. His father was retired Air Force, then retired USPS, and working for the State of FL in Winter Park. I took the post office exam because my step-daughter wanted to take it, and she never wanted to go anywhere unfamiliar if I didn’t go with her.

On the state jobs, the people that were actually hired for the available positions were all minority women. My friend an I borrowed some money and bought a business together. The person we bought the business from died, and further payments were disputed in court.

The post offices here in IL are virtually all minority, mostly Asian. My step daughter married and moved to Las Vegas, where she has a real estate license, works for a bank, and also at a casino part time.

Posted by: ohrealy at April 26, 2008 12:09 PM
Comment #251647


Posted by: b0mbay at April 29, 2008 3:33 AM
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