Democrats & Liberals Archives

Disruptive Lenses

People are asking: Why don’t the Republicans get it? The SCHIPS veto couldn’t have been worse for the Republicans if they planned it that way. They continue to blockade the Senate, amassing a considerable backlog of blocked bills that are going to get them killed in the next elections. Their candidates for President seem bent, for the most part, on vindicating the Bush record, a difficult task to juggle with justifying their own election. Why are the Republicans being this foolish?

The Republicans are addicted to maintaining and pleasing a base of voters who will believe what they say, who won't question things too much, and even if they think things are a bad idea, they'll support them, afraid to lose.

And afraid to lose, the Republicans often are. They act like victories on the Democratic side are shoves that will push America over the edge towards ruin. The fight against our side is cast in terms of moral necessity. Don't vote for us and you'll find your dog shot, your women violated and forced into abortions, your children taught to be gay, and your newly homosexual kid will marry the kid of the same gender next door (or maybe the German Shepherd).

Vote for Democrats, they say, and you'll be taxed to death, and the government regulations will commit necrophilia upon the body. Vote for the Democrats, and you'll be lead out of your church at gun point and signed up at the local mosque. They'll force all our soldiers to become florists, and they'll go out and look for new opportunities to give in to tyrants.

Vote for the Democrats, they say, and you'll be grazing on grass and granola besides your new poorhouse, which you can all blame on Kyoto. They'll take that delicious hamburger out of your mouth, deny you the trans-fats you need to survive, set your Hummer on fire, and dance a kooky dance on top of your last pack of cigarettes.

The funny thing is, some of the Republicans actually might believe these things. I guarantee at least one foolhardy soul will actually try to justify some of these views, if not more.

The picture Republicans have of Democrats is pretty far gone from reality, and it's not the only thing. Reality seems to be a pretty distant thing to many Republican policies. These are people who insist, with skyrocketing deficits, that we need more tax cuts. I know sometimes the dynamics of the economy are pretty complex, but sometimes the arithmetic of a plan still matters more than the calculus .

Why do they continue to defy the American people on this war, on healthcare, on all the different fronts where it counts? Put simply, the Republican party is the guy who, having been caught an explosion, doesn't want to feel the wetness on the back of his head, afraid that it might be more than blood coming out. The Republicans are in absolute shock. That's why they don't want to admit anything. They want to click their heels three times, say "There's no place like home!", and get back Kansas.

The Republicans are in shock because for years, they were told they were winning, that the country was making a permanent shift their way. Theirs was the conventional wisdom. Theirs was the party which really knew what to do on defense. Theirs was the party that could be trusted not to overspend. Theirs was the party that wouldn't intrude into people's lives unnecessarily, that was for freedom and apple pie.

Their solution is to be more Republican than ever before, but what does that mean when being Republican in modern times is so self-contradictory? Everybody was getting what they wanted in the party after 2004, and nobody. Republicans, for the first time were considering the contradictions and corruption of their own party.

So what happened?

Republicans are in a vicious feedback loop of their own bias. The charges of media bias served to allow Republicans to play the referees when first used, allowing them to question those who question their political positions in the media, putting those who wanted to keep up a reputation of fairmindedness on the spot. But where the charges of bias have always been most effective, have been among the Republicans themselves. It became the perfect excuse for not believing bad things said about Republicans. If the Liberal Media is out to get you, the fact's are almost always still debateable, even when they haven't changed one bit.

Things went further than that, and the Republicans should consider the day they did black in their memory. FOXNews and other Right-Wing media institutions might have seemed a potent antidote for the perceived media bias, but it was something far worse: it was the same poison, but given to them by a friend, rather than an enemy, and no less toxic for that.

The thing about bias is that everybody has an opinion. Everybody has a bias, and the Republicans are quick to say that they at least openly practice theirs. The notion, though, that the only reason not to openly practice one's bias is the wish to deceive others about it is just so much self-serving rhetoric. The real question is whether you let your bias sit in the driver's seat, or whether you justify things by more than just what is in your head.

Holding a deliberate bias to counter somebody else's perceived biases is to self-inflict the kind of closed-mindedness that you criticize in the other person. Biases are something to get past, or to justify on external grounds. It's not bad to have an opinion, to have a preference. Experience and knowledge are part of what lead us to lean one way or another on issues. It's when you don't allow further experience and further knowledge that you learn to affect what you believe that you get into trouble.

The Republicans have excelled at this. Convinced from the beginning that the way to keep the liberals from winning is to refuse to credit the general consensus they believe to be tainted by liberal bias, they have succeeded in surrounding themselves in what they deem to be a properly conservative worldview, one they insisted was within their power to impose on the world. And try they have. Whether it's trying their absolute best to sideline the United Nations, using their political power to push the Iraq war, pushing endless tax cuts, intruding on the Terri Schiavo case, Defending their politicians at every turn, their officials against ever complaint, the Republicans have expended huge amounts of effort seeing their will done.

It's practically killed them. The world doesn't always fit our biases. That's why it's important to get past them- they can be misleading. When you act according to misguided principles, there's always waste, since your efforts are not so much in line with what they are intended to change. The better you know what you're doing, the less effort you waste. For years, political opposition protected the Republicans from self destruction, both stopping them from overplaying their hands, and also providing liberal opposition to blame for their failures. When they finally won everything, though, nobody was powerful enough to blame for the problems they cause, and not enough people could be convinced that it was all the liberal's fault for them to believe that they weren't the ones who screwed things up.

It's the extremity of the screw-ups that produced the sudden, catastrophic collapse of power, and none of these screw-ups would have been possible if the GOP hadn't maintained a system that perpetually reassured the average Republican that everything was alright, that they were right on the issues, that their philosophy was consistent and merciful when it was not. Because of the embrace of the Conservative bias, another thing happened: the point of view of the Republican base has considerably diverged from that of the average American. And that is the base the Republicans are now afraid to cross, even as it looks to get them killed on election day. Those concerned about incumbency last time will have plenty to celebrate this time. Any number of Republicans are set to retire or lose their elections. Their congressional committee is virtually broke.

The Republicans are faced with a choice: let the old party die and rethink everything from the ground up, with all the fearful possibilities that presents, or withdraw into a partisan bubble so well-armored that nothing can get through, intensifying their zeal on all fronts until nothing gets through. This will only ensure that their party and the rest of the country are hurt worst, but that is the awful sort of fate that comes of a political movement that fights realities to defend perceptions.

Posted by Stephen Daugherty at October 9, 2007 6:13 AM
Comment #235670

First, thanks for my first good laugh of the day. “A kooky dance on you last pack of cigarettes,” HA! Love it!

One must wonder if all the Libertarians are doing a little “I told you so” dance. Makes you wonder if they are up for a resurgence. Worth looking into.


Posted by: leatherankh at October 9, 2007 10:52 AM
Comment #235671

Stephen, your blurb is really confusing to me. You speak of bias and yet display the most obvious bias as though only what you believe is truth. You appear to bewail the demise of the Republican Party which is actually your goal. You ascribe motives and attitudes to conservative voters which don’t exist. You portray a black and white world where liberal is white and conservative is black. What are you trying to say? I read this twice and gave up trying to understand your point.

Posted by: Jim at October 9, 2007 11:06 AM
Comment #235672

Why don’t the Republicans get it? For the same reasons liberals didn’t get it in 96 and 2000: They govern for the party, not the people. They ignore the beliefs and concerns of those who did not vote for them, get greedy in pushing their own personal agenda and the people get fed up with it all and decide to give the “otherside” another chance.

Someone on the right could have written the same piece about liberals back then and soon, they will have that chance again.

Posted by: kctim at October 9, 2007 11:12 AM
Comment #235676

Ah yes, the grand old party of the bush crime family, Larry Craig and the Christian Taliban!!!!!

Their vision for the world is the golden arches and an Exxon oil rig for every city in the world!!!!!! At gun point if necessary!!!!!!!!

The republican lineup for presidential candidates have all vowed to stay the course of the bush crime family!!!!! They know what is best for us all!!!!!

Remember they are tapped into our phones and e-mails just to make sure that we all get their message!!!!!! Big brother is going to protect us from the boogie man!!!!!

Posted by: Outraged at October 9, 2007 11:56 AM
Comment #235677

Stephen, but, Democrats TOO “seem bent, for the most part, on vindicating the Bush record,” as the NY Times reports this morning that Democrats are poised to rubber stamp Bush’s expansion of unconstitutional wiretapping out of fear they might be criticized as weak on terrorism.

New politicians, same as old politicians. There are a slew of Democrats that need to be removed from Congress in 2008, if this country is to effectively restore America to her previous stature of prosperity, liberty, and national security.

Posted by: David R. Remer at October 9, 2007 12:05 PM
Comment #235687

David R. Remer: I saw the news, disgusting isn’t it. What the government has done is set a precedent. The government reserves the right to spy on anyone, including it’s own citizens, whom it deems an enemy, without due process of law and oversite. IMO, this will morph into a full blown fait accompli between the two party system and the corporate capitalists.

I am guickly coming to the conclusion that Democrats and Republicans depending on their parties to prevent wholesale abuse won’t stop it. Boycotting elections won’t stop it. VOID won’t stop it. Nor will a third party stop it.

Spy technology has become the Keystone in the New Knighted States of America. Long live the New Empire!

Stephen: I think our party members face many of the same problems and choices.

Posted by: jlw at October 9, 2007 2:14 PM
Comment #235702

I never said I was free from bias. I said everybody has their biases, but some people let themselves be lead and blinded by them, rather than taking a step back and seeing whether the world really confirms their prejudgments.

The Republicans, in an effort to create an umbreakable foundation of support for their party have created a massive collection of media companies and sites for that very purpose, and they steer folks towards them by saying that they won’t get unbiased, “fair and balanced” reporting elsewhere. Or, at the very least, they won’t get a friendly bias.

Republicans make something of the fact that their bias is open and honest, but the erroneous implication here, besides the notion that a bias is redeemed by being openly and consciously applied, is that people don’t openly act out their biases because they’re dishonest at heart.

In truth, some of these people are being honest, and part of that honesty being that their personal biases can be wrong, and must be proved correct before they are followed. Even others not being honest follow the generally mainstream notion that those who openly display political biases in information distributing roles are untrustworthy.

Yes, my piece was biased. You’re on a political opinion site, though, and I’m not trying to present myself as a reporter, so as you read, I’m not deceiving you about what my aim is.

As for presenting things in black and white? There is the potential for liberals to fall into the same trap. And that’s part of why I write essays like this, and have explored the political collapse of the Republicans on multiple occasions. What’s happened to your party is a cautionary tale to me, in no small part because I’m one of the millions who were so offput by the political nastiness that this closed-in attitude created, that I switched my allegiance.

David R. Remer, jlw-
Well, I can tell you they got holy hell from Daily Kos, Talking Points Memo, Atrios, Crooks and Liars, and Matthew Yglesias. Check out the sites. You might have to look back a little, but their dismay is pretty apparent, as is their anger. I’d point that out to you to make a significant point about the differences in which Democrats operate: We’re not at all complacent or compliant about what our parties do. In fact, I was seriously considering writing up another post telling my people to keep up the pressure, making sure that our people do stuff consistent with their constituent’s wishes.

Still, There’s evidence that the bill might not be the big cave-in that some Democrats think it is. I wouldn’t complain if the outrage among Democrats made it even tighter on protecting civil liberties. Still, I would emphasis the fact that Democrats have been very quick and very concerted in their responses to the politicians in Washington. We’re not taking anything lying down.

The Republicans rank and file, though, and their pundits seem perfectly willing to not only justify some of the truly inconsistent things their people are doing, but also to justify some pretty heinous stuff. Such as deciding to harrass Graeme Frost, a twelve year old, and his family, just because the kid gave the Democrats weekly radio address responding to the President’s veto of the SCHIPS program.

If nothing else, the harrassment of that kid should tell you something. They take the home’s current value, rather that what the parents paid for it. They talk about the fact that the kids are in private schools, rather than acknowledging that they’re there on charity scholarships. They completely neglect the Frost family’s real-world incom, which is only about 45,000 dollars a year, all in their quest to deny the Democrats a political advantage from their own President’s boneheaded veto. That’s how out of touch the Republican party has become, along with their pundits. Everybody you think they would have the decency not to slime, they slime anyways. It’s not that all Republicans are like this, but it seems there are far too many not confronting this very real pathological approach to politics, not realizing that this isn’t exactly making them any more popular than they are already are.

The worse thing is how these rationalizations spread, like a bad infection. The assumption is, any of the sympathetic people Democrats or the media present saying the GOP policies are wrong are just fakers. If it’s a soldier, they’re phony. If it’s a mother mourning her soldier son, protesting at the President’s ranch, she’s betraying her boy. If it’s a government official, they’re either liars or part of the far left. They’ll say just about anything about anybody to protect the party. Meanwhile, the Democrats at the sites I frequent seem like they’re about to reach for the paddle to give their people a spanking when they screw things up.

This notion that the Republicans and Democrats treat their people the same is just ludicrous. Democrats are far more cynical and skeptical about their people than the Republicans are at this point.

Reversing the political trends of the last thirty years will not happen overnight. We have to want change bad, and not simply count on some broad-brush means of getting what we want. Keeping informed and keeping active in dealing with these things is paramount to changing the political climate. We have to show these people who’s boss.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 9, 2007 5:27 PM
Comment #235703

Politicians are politicians I don’t care what party you claim, they are all for one thing SELF. Not you not me. They give you a line of bs so good that you think they are the greatest thing since peanut butter. Term limits in congress is what is needed to get rid of the career politicans. We need new blood in congress.

Posted by: KAP at October 9, 2007 5:30 PM
Comment #235707

KAP, term limits is the dumbest idea ever thought up. Current incumbent politicians would have to vote for it. Not in this universe would that happen!

Posted by: David R. Remer at October 9, 2007 6:05 PM
Comment #235708

Stephen said: “This notion that the Republicans and Democrats treat their people the same is just ludicrous. Democrats are far more cynical and skeptical about their people than the Republicans are at this point.”

There are millions in the Libertarian and religious wings of the Republican Party who would legitimately and defensibly prove your statement wrong, Stephen.

Your idea that Democratic supporters are superior to Republican supporters is not based in evidence, fact, or logic. People with all their flaws and ignorance and biases are pretty much the same in both parties, they make a choice of party like they make a choice of amputation to save their life. The lesser of two evils choice is all that divides them, and its a largely artificial choice at that.

The Dem and Rep. political parties do this country far more harm than the people left to their own vote without the parties could possibly create. This party created divisiveness has paralyzed our government in the face of the greatest economic and sovereignty issues ever to face our nation since the Civil War.

Posted by: David R. Remer at October 9, 2007 6:08 PM
Comment #235712

David R. Remer-
Did you even bother to read those sites? Our people keep an active eye on our candidates, and actively critique of the candidates and their positions. Visit Daily Kos and move around a bit.

But what about those Libertarians? What about the Religious Right? They may have sent their warning signals, from time to time, but for the most part, most of what I’ve seen coming from these people has been blind support for the Republicans, and blind rejection of the Democrats.

Democratic supporters aren’t superior, they’ve just had a shitload of painful experience in recent times. We’ve learned that we have little to gain from blind support of our party. What we got for that was years in the wilderness. You’ve seen my postings, my consistent warnings about what can happen when we let politics overwhelm practicality. I have not backed off a single inch in that.

I don’t want my party to be the lesser of two evils, but a definitive good. I want Democrats to take what is happening to the Republican party as a warning, that even as our power grows (and trust me, in this election it will) we can end up just like them, if our focus strays from reality.

When I switched from the Republican party, I did so for a number of reasons. One, I had no love for the way they were treating Clinton. My attitude was that the man was President, and respect was due, regardless of what we though of him. I didn’t like that he was elected when he was, but I felt that such politics was beneath us. I still do.

They had attitudes about taxes that were unrealistic then as now. I forgave Bush 41, for example, pretty quickly for breaking his pledge. If there was nothing for it, there was nothing for it.

They had an attitude towards government that I felt was overly hostile. I wasn’t for government waste or overspending, but these people just seem radical about it. The results are pretty much what we’re seeing right now.

Their attitude towards science and the environment, perhaps, was one of the things that most revolted me, a science geek from an early age. Their anti-intellectualism wasn’t much better.

I don’t like bullies. I really don’t. I departed from the party in part because it turned inwards on itself.

The Democrats are taking the positions Americans generally want. Their worst problem right now, politically speaking, is the degree to which they’re failing to live up to that.

Now you can talk all you want to about what damage the parties are doing, but parties are made of people, and people’s minds can be changed.

Many critics of the parties try and take on the organizations. That’s bound to fail. You have to change people’s minds and get them to move with you. The parties will move with the people, or the people will leave them behind.

I keep on telling people on the green column to start organizing towards geting more of their people into office at local levels. You need to build up political clout locally before statewide, statewide before nationwide. What’s more, people will not have to cooperate with you. You’ve got to earn that, and the best way to earn this is to depart from the generalized complaints, and get to the nitty-gritty, the every day issues.

I don’t suffer from the same misapprehension some do that politicians can be expected to do the right thing at all times. I don’t expect these people to be angels, I expect them to be scared of not getting re-elected.

Some might approach a less than naive approach to politicans by getting cynical the way Republicans did, by believing that big government can do no good, or that politicians are corrupt, and there’s no help for it.

Well, here’s my perspective. I would like our politicians to love us enough to do the right thing for us, but sometimes, they just aren’t that sentimental. So in those cases, I’d take the Machiavellian position that sometimes it’s better to be feared than loved. Some Republicans pointed out that we didn’t give hugs and kisses to Joe Lieberman in the last election, but that guy was doing his absolute best to side with Bush all the time on the war, and it didn’t sit well with most Democrats. So folks like me made sure he lost the primary. He had to go to extraordinary lengths to get elected, and there’s a good question as to whether he wins his next term.

We modern Dems are not the Dems of yesteryear. Like some wiseacre said, we write letters. If you want a party in Washington that does what the voters want, you pay attention to what they do, and you make damn sure other people find out about it when they’re screwing up. You can’t leave government alone. In this Democracy, you aren’t meant to. The tragedy of the Republicans is that they let themselves get kept docile by years worth of propaganda.

They only woke up to the terrible problems just recently, and even now, there’s this devoted third who are basically still supporting Party and its pundits at all costs. These people need to realize that they’re just making things worse for themselves.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 9, 2007 8:07 PM
Comment #235713

More News on the FISA legislation.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 9, 2007 8:10 PM
Comment #235714


“I know sometimes the dynamics of the economy are pretty complex, but sometimes the arithmetic of a plan still matters more than the calculus.”

That was just fantastic phrasing. If it is yours originally, you should copyright it.

“For years, political opposition protected the Republicans from self destruction, both stopping them from overplaying their hands, and also providing liberal opposition to blame for their failures. When they finally won everything, though, nobody was powerful enough to blame for the problems they cause, and not enough people could be convinced that it was all the liberal’s fault for them to believe that they weren’t the ones who screwed things up.”

Isn’t this an argument by extension for a Republican president in ‘08? Who are you supporting?

In general, I agree with much of what you have said about the Republican party as it has manifested itself over the past few years.

“What’s happened to your party is a cautionary tale to me, in no small part because I’m one of the millions who were so offput by the political nastiness that this closed-in attitude created, that I switched my allegiance.”

I’m well aware of these feelings. I found myself making a similar switch from the Democratic Party in the late 80’s/ early 90’s when I found myself in college surrounded by speech codes and a complete unwillingness to engage on the debate surrounding the public education system on the left.

It was also bolstered by what I considered to be run amok political correctness that is very similar to what you define as bias in your article. Democrats leveled charges against Republican platforms and priorities not with facts but with accusations of all sorts of ism’s (sex, race, etc.) It took Clinton and the DLC’s challenging of the Democratic status quo to move past much of that, and I’m ashamed how little I recognized his leadership in that regard at the time.

I’m finding myself in that same position now with the Republicans as I have been surrounded by the abodonment of libertarian positions and a piss-poor execution of the war. I voted libertarian in the last govenor’s election in Ohio because I couldn’t stomach the Republican candidate’s strong right-wing Christian positions, particularly his stance on gay marriage. I may make similar choices in the ‘08 presidential election.

If I find myself in that situation again, my registration will be to an I not back to a D. I have had my fill there just as you did with the R’s.

As an aside, it is worth repeating how bad the Democrats failed in the gay marriage ballot initiatives in 2004. I think that Kerry’s refusal to take a stance was a major piece of that failure. Had he stood up to them, they may not have garnered the votes from Democratic voters that ulitimately swept the initiatives into being. So as you extoll the virues of the Democratic base, it is worth a look back at those election results to see the vast differential in the margin of victory for Bush and the margin of victory for those initiatives. It was not 1 or 2 points. In nearly every case, it was more than a 10 point differential.

With that illustration, I seriously caution you to paint in such broad strokes. The deadly biases that you point to include failure to acknowledge the successes of your opposition. Your article sounds familiar to so many Republican bashings of the Clinton administration throughout the 2000 the election cycle.

Finally, “there’s this devoted third who are basically still supporting Party and its pundits at all costs.” Did you ever here of the blue dog Democrats? They are out there and have a big voice. They are the guys that elected William Jefferson again. I’d be careful on extrapolating on what’s happening right now in the Democratic base to what will happen in the future. Democratic voters are absolutely as capable of being sheep as the Republican voters. They are just pissed off and organized right now. Give the Democratic Party 15 years of success, it will be a lot easier for their faithful to ignore them.

Posted by: Rob at October 9, 2007 8:15 PM
Comment #235715

Stephen asked: “Did you even bother to read those sites? Our people keep an active eye on our candidates, and actively critique of the candidates and their positions.”

Have you even bothered to visit Religious Right blogs or Cato to see how they are critiquing Republican candidates? Thought not. Like I said, the only difference is in your comments, not reality. Republican supporters are critical of their candidates as well, more so today, than in many years. But, you don’t want to hear that, right? Would it destroy your view of your party’s supporter’s superiority.

You should listen with an open mind to what Rob says above. He is quite correct when he says: “Democratic voters are absolutely as capable of being sheep as the Republican voters. ” Their sheepish following is how Republicans began taking Congress in the first place 1994. The following wasn’t critiquing their own rep’s performance, and those that were inclined to, were ignored and pushed out to become Independent and Republican voters, seeking smaller less expensive government.

Posted by: David R. Remer at October 9, 2007 8:25 PM
Comment #235721

Actually, just about all the Republican candidates are basically pushing the Bush and Republican status quo. It’s going to take quite a while for Republicans to wake up from this, if they choose to do so.

I think you should go back and see what was actually done by the Republican Party. Some people do themselves little credit in the way they employ facts. Perhaps like Republicans today, they’ve grown so use to being right, that they’ve forgotten how they got that way.

That’s the big problem of bubbling folks inside a world of self-perpetuating party mythology. When you don’t think for yourself, you don’t argue for yourself.

Everybody’s got a point of view, and an immediate response to what they see around them. This is not entirely a bad thing, as not everything can or should be decided on the basis of conscious deliberation. However, one must balance moments when one goes with one’s subconscious gut instinct with times when you hit the brakes on what you’re doing or what you’re thinking and reorganize your thoughts.

The current crop of Republicans, and quite a few Democrats represent a crop of folks who stopped doing a lot of their thinking back in the sixties, and who spent the longest time trying to figure out how to freeze their advantages and their politics into permanent victories. The results are plain: both parties are now minefield full of unpleasant memories.

Democrats are capable of being sheep, no doubt. That’s why I keep on telling them not to be, not to simply lie down in the fields and chew the cud talking about how crappy politics has gotten. Disappointments are inevitable in politics, practically guaranteed after a long period of corruption and political cowardice as we’ve seen. The key is to understand this one truth about Democracy: you can’t get what you don’t ask for.

Regarding the third? I see it practically every poll. There’s this twenty or thirty percent who agree with Bush practically without fail. One gets the sense the pollsters could say “Bush unveiled his modest proposal to solve the poverty problem in inner cities by selling babies as meat” and you’d get these people agreeing. The things these people are agreeing with are bad by any stretch of the term, yet these people agree.

But I agree that fifteen years of success may change the current activism. I can only hope our complacency at that point is still quite alert in comparison with that which overwhelmed the GOP during the last decade.

David R. Remer-
Do me a favor and visit Democratic Blogs first, because my point was not what the Republicans were doing now, but what they were doing as the corruption stories unfolded, and as the corporate corruption was going on over the years. These people were re-electing Bush and pushing his cronies like there was no tomorrow. Only after the fact have many of these people recognized what a bad investment they had made. The subject of my entry is the Republican party over its recent history, say back to the early eighties, when they really started to get into the media separatism.

I think it’s fair to say that there are ways in which the Republicans isolated themselves that the Democrats never really availed themselves of.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 9, 2007 10:21 PM
Comment #235731

Stephen said: “Only after the fact have many of these people recognized what a bad investment they had made.”

Ahh, you mean like Democrats who switched their vote to Republican in 1994. Gotcha. And you are arguing the human nature of Democrats has evolved since 2001? I don’t think so.

Posted by: David R. Remer at October 10, 2007 12:17 AM
Comment #235744

David R. Remer-
I think a lot has changed, politically speaking.

But let’s make a distinction here. I’m talking voters, you’re talking politicians. As of now, I think it would be fair to say that there is not a one-to-one correspondence between the politicians and the people of the party.

I wanted you to see the sites I talked about not because it would show you how perfect the Democrats are, but to show you the friction and the thinking of the newer generation. It would also show you the differences of opinion between the politicians in Washington and the average Democrat, and most importantly, the activism present seeking to affect the decisions made by these people.

The important part, the crucial part, is the culture of information. Democrats, to put it plainly, rely ultimately on sources of information beyond their political sphere. Run through one or two links, and you can find a neutral source.

Democrats may be capable of being sheep, but they’re less likely to follow the shepherds. The question is whether it lasts.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 10, 2007 8:13 AM
Comment #235750

So, basically you want Republicans to blindly follow Democrats?????


First off we just don’t feel that “25” is a child and definately do not feel that “$83,000” a year is poverty.

This is just a step to push universal health care and they know that….well news to ya…not everyone thinks universal healthcare and waiting in line for 4mos to get your brain tumor looked at is a wonderful prospect.

I like this line as well:

“They completely neglect the Frost family’s real-world incom, which is only about $45,000 dollars a year”

By what stretch of the imagination is $45,000 a year something to sneeze at????? IT’S NOT!!!! They may have overspent their means….but that is not our fault.
I have NEVER ever came close to making that and I don’t feel anyone else is responsible for my families healthcare.


I won’t even touch on the argument that Democrats are more critical of their electorates than Republicans……….that is just a silly statement meant for flame baiting.

Posted by: Traci at October 10, 2007 10:10 AM
Comment #235762

Hillary promotes “Baby Bonds” and just yesterday introduced her latest vote-buying scheme…free retirement money. Well thanks Hillary, when you put a Lexus in my garage to keep my Lincoln and Cadillac company I will reconsider voting for you. But please remember, I want it all for free. No more taxes on us poor demented smokers, and leave my income taxes alone too. And, don’t tax the corporations more as my retirement funds depend upon them doing well. U.S. Corps already pay more in taxes than European Corps and this would just lead to an increased flow of American jobs across the Atlantic. I urge Hillary to promote a tax on internet blogs, that could raise trillions.

Posted by: Jim at October 10, 2007 1:22 PM
Comment #235767

I must be getting old (62) because I can remember Republicans being just against labor, social prorams, entitlement programs and: oh—-they have not changed that much, have they. The GOP has been taken over by the ultra-right, now called neocons and the so called Christian right(which they are niether). There is a big faction in the GOP that want all social programs enacted since FDR, which would harm a great majority of citzens. Some of the Insurance owners want Social Security, Medicare, SCIP etc to be trashed so their companies and their salaries will be even bigger. Ah greed, ain’t it great.

We can change this by just voting on November 04, 2008. Vote for the candidates who believe in you not just big business, big religious blowhards nor anyone else from the ultra-right. My humble advise, VOTE DEMOCRATIC.

Posted by: C.T. Rich at October 10, 2007 2:19 PM
Comment #235768

ps: The Repubican National Committee (RNC) is showing its true colors. If someone has the nerve to question Bush or the Bushies they just attact-attact-attact and lie-lie-lie. Or they get their water carring talking heads to do it. Our Country is tired of the Karl Rove’s method of anwering people who have the unpatriotic ideas of questioning the Administration. A lot of us are tired of the “do as I say not as I do” comming from this Administration and the RNC.

Posted by: C.T. Rich at October 10, 2007 2:29 PM
Comment #235769

I’m sure that you don’t hate children, but hate is not required to produce harm.

45,000 may be nothing to sneeze at where you come from, but in other parts of the country, particularly New york, the cost of living can make that sum eminently besnottable. It also doesn’t help if you have to support a disabled person as Graeme’s family must.

Speaking of New York, that’s where you get the 83,000. It’s a high number, but you have to keep in mind how expensive living in New York can be. What also makes this high is the fact that this figure relates to expenses for a family of four in that state. What makes the use of this number ironic is the fact that New York has been denied permission by the Bush administration for the waiver to set this as the limit for SCHIPS. In other words, it’s not even an operative number for those standards.

As for Universal Healthcare?

I think you neglect that Bush has done little to stop this program altogether. He also pushed emphatically for the Medicare Drug Benefit. Additionally, the current system is itself the result of legislation, and it is by all accounts inefficient as hell.

Additionally, if you have health insurance, you are making others responsible for the healthcare of your family. That’s what insurance is, spread risk. Unfortunately, it’s become basically a medical protection racket, where the insurance companies do their absolute best to keep the money paid into the system, rather than cover people’s healthcare.

If you want to avoid socialized medicine, come up with a plan now that restores healthcare to a functioning state.

As for who is more critical?

You’re just passing on GOP talking points, talking points that have no real basis in fact. The whole point of what has been put out is to discredit the Democratic Party Spokesperson on this matter, even if it’s just a 12 year old kid.

This is precisely the kind of behavior that validates my point. No matter who speaks up against the GOP, this is the treatment they get, be they soldiers, a dead soldier’s mother, widows of the victims of 9/11, or a twelve year old kid who’s family has suffered financial troubles because of an accident.

Is there nothing or nobody the GOP won’t lash out against, to gain political advantage?

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 10, 2007 2:32 PM
Comment #235770

And the Dems have been taken over by extreme-left liberals who wish to use govt to force their beliefs onto everyone.

Put up a real Democrat and many would.
Until then, you keep voting for a liberal nanny-state democracy and I’ll keep voting to be a free, Constitutional Republic again.

Posted by: kctim at October 10, 2007 2:40 PM
Comment #235773

If we legislate universal heath care in the U.S. where will the Canadian’s go for their care?

Stephen in New York. Do folks living in NY get more social security than the folks living in Mississippi because their living expenses are higher in the Big Apple? And please, defend the 25 year old qualifying for this charity.

Posted by: Jim at October 10, 2007 2:53 PM
Comment #235775

“And please, defend the 25 year old qualifying for this charity”

He qualifies because he can vote Jim. Keep giving to him and he will keep voting for you.

Posted by: kctim at October 10, 2007 3:00 PM
Comment #235777

And the Dems have been taken over by extreme-left liberals who wish to use govt to force their beliefs onto everyone.

Posted by: kctim at October 10, 2007 02:40 PM

And the Reps have been taken over by extreme-right Christian Taliban who wish to use govt to force their beliefs onto everyone.

Posted by: Outraged at October 10, 2007 3:24 PM
Comment #235781


Excellent point and my point exactly.

Let me tell a story here…

I was born and raised in Northern Michigan, when the company my father worked for went out of business, we had to make the difficult choice of moving to Missouri in order to keep our family fed. None of us liked the prospect of having to do so seeing as all of our extended family and such lived there(Michigan) as well, BUT we also enjoyed eating so it had to be done.

My point is this:

Although, we have difficult choices to make, they are in fact OUR choices. We chose to move and be successful rather than go down with the ship. It was hard and I didn’t particularly care for Missouri but my dad felt a little to old to go back to school and get another craft under his belt.
I lived there for 15 years and decided to come back to Michigan (I think most people have an affliction to where they were raised). Michigan is now (well has been) in a pretty sad state right now and if I am going to prosper, I am going to have to go back to school if I wish to remain here. End of story….that is what I HAVE to do. Either that, or try to live in a society with few jobs and try to compete against people who have more skills than I!!
I now have an appointment with MichiganWorks to find out the scoop on job availability and try to get skills in those areas.
My sister and her husband (who is in the building industry) recently (a month ago) left Michigan for Colorado in order for their family to prosper.

Cost of living, Job availabitity, skills you have, all of these things must play a role in deciding what is the best for your family (or yourself if you are single). You may personally not like the idea of leaving your comfort zone, but that does not give you the right to inflict your costs on others. It is a big country and different regions can make all the difference in survival.

Here is one more story:

Living in Missouri I knew a girl that went to school on the tax payers dime……SHE GOT A DEGREE IN MARINE BIOLOGY!!!!!!!!
WITH…….get this…..NO plans to leave Missouri!!!!! Not exactly a marine mecca!!!!lololol As expected she now works minimum wage jobs and collects welfare assistance with a masters degree.

It repulses me….she can easily leave mammas tit and move to the coast and do well with a masters degree, but nope, now she’s our problem (doubly because we also paid for her school)…this is one of many stories like this that I have first hand knowledge of.

Don’t get me wrong…..I am all for people getting assistance to go to school….hell, I’m going to as well. BUT, if the tax payers pay for it…shouldn’t you have to get a sensible degree???? One that you can use???

Posted by: Traci at October 10, 2007 3:46 PM
Comment #235783

Thanks Outraged. C.T.’s simple overgeneralization, then mine and then yours, shows why BOTH, left and right, are so blinded by partisanship that nothing will get done.
I’ll keep fighting for my rights and you will keep fighting for more govt probably until it all finally boils over.

Is it more wrong to namecall or call somebody out when they have a different opinion, such as the right does, or to namecall or totally ignore them, as the left does?

Posted by: kctim at October 10, 2007 4:09 PM
Comment #235788

Thanks Outraged. C.T.’s simple overgeneralization, then mine and then yours, shows why BOTH, left and right, are so blinded by partisanship that nothing will get done.
I’ll keep fighting for my rights and you will keep fighting for more govt probably until it all finally boils over.
Posted by: kctim at October 10, 2007 04:09 PM

You are welcome kctim!!!!!!!!!

You keep working on that less government thing, I am with you on that!!!!!!!

I am being taxed to death could you see if you could work on that also!!!!!

Maybe we could get some accountability with our tax dollars that are going for those no bid contracts, all my taxes are going to the merchants of death!!!!!!!

I would like to get some of that back so I can rebuild my bridge that fell down from neglect; we need that bridge to move our goods across the Mississippi River!!!!!

Posted by: Outraged at October 10, 2007 4:37 PM
Comment #235792

Outraged, I work on those things every time I vote, with every letter I write to the govt and at every council meeting I go too.

Small govt? lower taxes? accountability? Dang man, you brought a tear to my eye.

Posted by: kctim at October 10, 2007 4:59 PM
Comment #235806

Stephen, I receive and read mail regularly from the Progressive Majority, Common Cause, MoveOn, and People for the American Way, all left or left leaning organizations. I am familiar with the intellectual sparring going on in the left camps. I also receive mail from Hillsdale College, Texas Public Policy Network, and the National Center for Public Policy Research, all right wing organizations. They are sparring too.

I was talking about the voters, not the politicians. The Party voters use the party as a crutch to do their thinking, research, and homework for them. True on both sides. But, of course, that leads to the Parties playing fast and loose with the truth, information, and data knowing full well the base won’t independent research what they say, and that they will discount what the opposition says.

This is the poorest excuse for the enlightened self-interest vote that our founding fathers contemplated when they granted the vote to white, male, landowners, the most likely persons to commit to an enlightened self-interested assessment of what politicians do. The fact is, political parties are now proving to be no substitute at all for voter’s educating themselves and voting for the person, not the party, who is most closely aligned with their self-interests and their children’s, and their parent’s. Which is why the independent voter rolls are growing and the Democratic and Republican Party rolls have been shrinking.

Posted by: David R. Remer at October 10, 2007 7:26 PM
Comment #235810

I think most folks on the right have little real experience of the truly far left. I think it bears repeating that what mainstream America wants, according to polls, is the same thing that most liberals are pushing. Moreover, if you look at any truly far-left socialism in the world, it’s leaps and bounds beyond what the right have labelled such. The Right simply calls anything far left that it disagrees with the Democrats about. It’s a propaganda tool.

Meanwhile, we see the Republicans pushing endless tax cuts, absolutist opposition to Roe v. Wade, police state levels of unwarranted surveillance, a unitary executive, deliberate defiance of Subpeonas issued by Congress. They used Federal government resources to back their candidates, in defiance of the law, and… well, I think it’s fairly plain at this point that the GOP’s gone pretty far to the authoritarian right.

As for namecalling? I really don’t like to do that. However, if I believe a label fits on factual grounds, I’m not shy about applying it, either. I think levelling political attacks on soldier’s credentials when they protest the war is sickening. I think going after Cindy Sheehan for her pacificism in the wake of her son’s death is sickening. They probably made her more of a radical and more of an icon by attacking her than by simply letting her have her 15 Minutes of fame and fade out.

And this whole Graeme Frost thing? I have been amazed at the people these folks are willing to attack, but this absolutely takes the cake. I’m jaded as hell as to who the GOP attacks, but this had my jaw on the floor. The GOP has set things up as Us vs. Them, with few people in their ranks willing to break out of this self-destructive pattern.

I’m not saying this to gloat. I’m saying this so that Republicans don’t have the alternative of saying that this because I’m tired of the GOP justifying or rationalizing it’s radicalism on some straw-man version of my party.

I don’t live in New York, rather in the Houston area. However, residence isn’t required to point out the fact that living expenses are higher in NY. As for the 25 year old getting funds from it? I’ll have to admit I don’t know the basis for that, but I do know that it’s the use of funds by the states, not the program itself, since an age limit of 19 is set.

That’s one person. Why do you think that proves that all who go to school on the taxpayer dime are cheats? You can’t prove a universal conclusion with just one anecdote.

Question, though: does she have no plans because she want to have no plans, or are financial circumstances and low opportunties possible factors.

As for the Frosts?

This is one guy’s view on it. He’s a Republican who just decided to become an Independent over this episode. He made the point that these people essentially did everything they were supposed to do, according to Republicans. These people are getting the crap beaten out of them because they’re not selling their house to pay for healthcare. People are struggling to do things right, to feed and shelter their children.

Did you know one of the leading qualties of women who file for Bankruptcy is not buying too many things, but having kids? It seems taking care of kids is very expensive in today’s society, and the cost of guaranteeing the children their needs is what’s sending many over the edge.

But hey, lets be compassionate conservatives and deprive these people of the help they need because it’s for their own good. That seems to be the definition, nowadays.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 10, 2007 7:56 PM
Comment #235818

David R. Remer-
I think you should look at the Blogs. It’s more real-time, more spur of the moment. By going for interest groups, you essentially get a very filtered version of Democratic thought.

I never really was that kind of Democrat, though some are. The special interests groups are not really the place to be looking. If you look at them, of course you’ll see nothing else than partisanship.

Look at Talking Points Memo, with it’s in depth expose on the Attorneys Firing, among other things. Look at Daily Kos, where the Liberals run the gamut. Look at Washington Monthly and Kevin Drum’s blog. Matthew Yglesias, Steven Clemons’ The Washington Note. There is an emphasis on real news there, and emphasis on facts.

Fact of the matter is, people have to start from somewhere. The question is whether their attitudes lead them to always end in the same place, in agreement with their party elite, or just biting their tongue for the benefit of electability for the party.

The real problem is that it’s very difficult to pour through the world of information out there. It can be helpful to have those who have an interest in what you do bring more information to your attention. I don’t blame people for this; I do it myself. However, I also like to keep one eye open for other things, for other views. I’ve provided multiple points of view, for example, on the issue of the FISA revision.

As for Democratic Voter rolls shrinking, what’s you’re source on that? I think you’re mistaken on that count. What’s the data for that?

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 10, 2007 9:35 PM
Comment #235821

An in depth look at the facts of the Graeme Frost case

This is what bugs me: folks acting like journalists who can’t be bothered to actually verify the facts before they publish their theories as gospel truths.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 10, 2007 9:54 PM
Comment #235824

Stephen….you truly are a hoot…as a matter of fact, I am a single mother who as of last week lost her job (it was a small business that just could no longer withstand the burden of higher taxes put out there for major corporations that inconveniently affects small businesses)!!

I know the struggle because I live it….I don’t need to hear about it because it is a part of my daily life!!!!

This is where my point about CHOICES comes into play.

I will be looking into school to further my cause, but I need to speak with someone of greater knowledge than myself with what is needed in my area….enter…MichiganWorks.

I couls throw up my hands and say “forget it, someone take over for me” or I can control my destiny. This may not include living in Michigan any more, but I will have to cross that bridge when I get there….but ultimately I have to do what will advance my family.

It is not an easy road, but my point is that it is NOT impossible.

As for my friend in the story…She simply has no drive to be successful. You are smart enough to know that you can apply for jobs across the country without having to go there personally…and with a masters, I am quite sure she would get a taker….most companies are willing to pay your travel expenses.

When my sister and her husband moved to Colorado, they were seconds away from filing bankruptcy….turns out, Colorado has more jobs than people to fill them…they paid there expenses to bring them out…all it took was responding to an ad they placed in our local newspapers.

My point I was making (and I already stated that it is one of nuemerous that I know first hand) is that, why can’t “freebies” at least guarantee productivity???? If you are paying for your own school…by all means…get a million worthless degrees!!!! BUT….if the tax payers are paying for it, why can’t we at least set the standard that it is in the direction of a sensible career?

Right now Michigan has a program that I will probably utilize…it is the “Displaced worker” program. Basically if you find yourself out of a job because of closing, downsizing, etc. the state will pay for 2yrs. of a TRADE school and it has to be approved according to job availabitity. The point is to make sure you will come out productive and the ONLY good idea Gov. Grandholm has come up with. Too bad it is temporary.

I could go on forever on this, but it boils down to being responsible……and no one…..NOT ONE single person in any political platform that I have met is against helping those that are helping themselves.
I live in a VERY high poverty state and the one life lesson that I have learned is that those that strive to be nothing….ARE NOTHING!!!! YOU CAN’T CHANGE IT……EVER!!!!!!

We live in a very technological era, why can I not even count the # of people I know on disabilty if I took off both my socks??? Most of them are for “back” injuries!!!!! Yet, they sit on the couch all day….so why can they not sit in front of a computer and be productive???? Tax payers would gladly pay for their assistance to be retrained rather than pay for them for the rest of there duration…..and their children that are going to learn this behavior.

Nobody likes the idea of relocation and new starts….but that does not give you the right to become a taxpayers burden.

BESIDES….why is it that poverty levels are entitled to free schooling, yet they do not utilize it in numbers you would expect? While on the other hand of it….so called “middle class” families are putting another mortgage on the house to ensure their childrens standings in working class society???? BECAUSE THE VALUES ARE DIFFERENT!!!!

Posted by: Traci at October 10, 2007 10:32 PM
Comment #235828

Another thing…the problem with newsworthy sob stories are that normally start with the “sob”. I like to trace it back to the root of the problem where the trouble began and empower that person to make some changes and come out victorious!!!

“Newsworthy” blurbs and so-called “investigations” into them….rarely affect me because I realize that the agenda of news is to tug at your heartstrings with emotion rather than intelligence.

Like the person crying foul because their mate is not as interested in their children as they are their drugs…….one question….were they junkies while you were sleeping with them producing children?

I can list a million diferent examples of this type of blatant disregard of sensible choice making. They happen, but don’t be an enabler and validate these actions, work to change the behavior.

I have made my fair share of “mistakes” my obligation is to learn from them and try not to repeat them!

We are creating a society that has severely confuses needs and wants on many levels.

All of this logic from a single mother with only a high school diploma under her belt.

Here’s an answer…

Why do “they” hate us?

Because we are the only society that screams about poverty while our “poor” chat on their cell phones. (Of course there are minor exceptions to this rule as with all things).

Posted by: Traci at October 10, 2007 11:17 PM
Comment #235829

Look, I’m not going to get into a character debate on this. Many who take advantage of government programs aren’t freeloaders. Many are simply people who want less of a hole to climb out of.

We tell people that they’re on their own, and then wonder why we can’t work the same hours we did and earn the same living, how the world’s best healthcare turned into “Don’t get sick”, and why, despite being the wealthiest country in the world that most people are so damn unhappy. We’ve ended up sacrificing more for less proportional gain, and there’s only so long you can do that before you become unmotivated.

It’s not the values that are really different. What’s different is the willingness to toil without reward. There’s a point, though, where people ask themselves whether what they’re doing is worth the time they have to devote to it.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 10, 2007 11:18 PM
Comment #235830


“We’ve ended up sacrificing more for less proportional gain, and there’s only so long you can do that before you become unmotivated.”

Exactly…and all I am saying is that, all the ideas I hear from the left are leading us to a socialistic society. Which will only enhance this problem and has been the downfall of numerous countries…such as Russia….when you create a society where no matter how hard you work, you are only entitled to what your neighbor has whether he works or not…..why in the hell would you work??? I see a bigger problem on the rise with the solutions….Are we “perfect”? HELL NO!!!! Do we have potential? Yes…more than any other nation you can change your stars here more than anywhere else….and for this….

While I am living the life that you “speak” of I am grateful!

Posted by: Traci at October 10, 2007 11:28 PM
Comment #235846

Traci said: “Exactly…and all I am saying is that, all the ideas I hear from the left are leading us to a socialistic society. Which will only enhance this problem and has been the downfall of numerous countries…such as Russia….”

Your comment appears loaded with right wing bias. Yet, many of your other comments ring very true. No child begins life seeking to be nothing and do nothing worth while. That is learned by a myriad of painful and detrimental lessons experienced in their homes, neighborhoods, schools, and so called friendships.

That said, this country is still not effectively addressing the roots of the conditions that prevent our society from working as a team to help all its members get a better, more positively reinforcing, and motivating start in life. Our government divided by political partisans also divides us as a people seeking fellow citizens to blame. This is not the path to securing a better future or for that matter, even keeping the status quo.

People in this country just don’t understand their dependency upon millions of others who contribute to their quality of life and opportunities from Jack Welch down to the school janitor. It would do America a world of good if our leadership would help us understand and appreciate how our lives rest on the efforts and choices of others thousands of times each day. And if our leaders would take that understanding as their model for leadership and problem solving, recognizing that adversarial relationships don’t produce like cooperative one’s do, our future could become far more manageable and salvageable.

Russia didn’t fail because of socialist policy, it failed because of communist politics and the absence of a healthy mix of capitalism. America was not an economic giant before FDR and WWII. America became an economic giant as a result of the mix of both socialist and capitalist policy which together created the largest and strongest consuming middle class any nation has ever seen. But only for 57 years. It is now beginning to decline.

The key is the right mix of social policy and capitalist enterprise and well regulated markets. The mix is currently way out of whack. We have the same mix today as in the 1960’s but, the increase of the population by 1/3, maxing out women in the work force, and the rise of global competitive manufacturing demanded that the mix be adjusted for these changing circumstances, and our politicians have utterly failed to make the fiscal adjustments necessary.

China, India, and most European nations have economies which are growing because of their developing mix of capitalism and social policy, and they have the political systems that permit adjustments as that growth and changed circumstances warrant. America is still stuck on SS and Medicare being the third rail of politics by our archaic two party system which is ineffective politically and destroying our economic future.

There is no way we can cut out entitlements and keep the economy together. That would mean cutting 65 million consumers out of participation in our economy, and our economy nor political system can take that kind of hit and survive. On the other hand, we can’t possibly incur the federal debt it would require to fund the 44 Trillion in entitlement mandates currently on the books (4 trillion for Soc. Sec. and 40 trillion for Medicare/Medicaid).

The solution requires a holistic reorganization of our communities, health care delivery systems, insurance infrastructure, labor laws, and an incredible commitment toward education and retraining of seniors so they can remain in the work force longer, and extend their ability to fund a middle class consumer end of life experience.

But, our 2 party political system is paralyzed and can’t even begin to think in those terms. Switching parties every decade or so results in the solutions of the previous party being canceled and the new majority party installing all new ones. The problems we face require sustained long term consistently applied solutions over decades. Politicians are focused on the next election the day after the last one is concluded, and that leaves America’s future and problems unattended.

Posted by: David R. Remer at October 11, 2007 2:40 AM
Comment #235857

David R. Remer-
The problem isn’t necessarily the two party system, but an attitude that puts politics above human values and practical solutions

That’s why I keep on hammering on this Graeme Frost case. It’s a perfect microcosm of what’s happened to politics, especially with the Republicans. They’re attacking a kid because they’ve deemed it politically necessary to defend a lousy decision by a lousy leader. Their facts turn out to be nothing more than poorly researched assumptions, made by people who stopped looking through the evidence when they found things confirming their suspicions. Then when the facts come out, their media huff and puff about how their “journalists” are the real victims. Never mind the people they disparaged and made targets for millions of kneejerk ideologues.

This sort of sensibility is more or less what alienated me from the party. I joined up with the Democrats to get away from this kind of insanity.

I want something else out of politics. I’m all too sick of this kind of hateful partisan warfare. I want things done. I want my government at work for the average person, helping them. Blaming party politics for this ignores decades worth of time when politics was more civil, the politicians more practical. We need to get back to a point where government quietly works, rather than quietly falls apart.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 11, 2007 9:07 AM
Comment #235861


I think the whole welfare problem can be attributed to our present government leader setting an example for the rest of us!!!!!!!

Take a good look at the smirking chimp; he has not had an honest or truly productive day in his life!!!!!

The little chimp has always had some one there to give him a hand out, to bail his @$$ out because he could not make it on his own!!!!!!

Every one sees our leader and wants to get a free ride through life just like he did!!!!!!

I think a few single moms looking for some assistance for their children pails in the face of the one trillion dollar merchants of death welfare program the bush crime family has set up for his rich buddies who don’t want to get an honest job like the rest of us!!!!!!!

One only has to look at our corporate welfare system and learn from it!!!!!!

They do not have to work to compete with other companies in other countries by investing in technology and using forward thinking to gain an edge!!!!!! They get lazy and just adopt a screw my customers, employees and the tax man management style!!!!!! Or just sign up for one of those fat no bid contract from the bush crime family!!!! Every one can see that and wants to do the same. How can I get on one of the bush corporate giveaway programs???????????

One trillion dollars to the merchants of death!!!!!!! How much is left over for a few single mothers????????

Posted by: Outraged at October 11, 2007 9:28 AM
Comment #235887

Stephen said: “The problem isn’t necessarily the two party system, but an attitude that puts politics above human values and practical solutions”

But, that attitude is intrinsic to the two party system, ergo, the problem is necessarily the two party system.

Posted by: David R. Remer at October 11, 2007 2:44 PM
Comment #235905

David R. Remer-
It’s been my experience that there will be people who seek power above all other things in any system of parties, whether it’s one, two, or many. It’s an emergent result of any concentration of power, combined with any competition for that power. Some people will do whatever they can to attain it. Put enough of these kinds of people in charge of a party, and it can get ugly.

The Democrats are no angels, but we haven’t left near the number of treadmarks on people’s back running them over. These people have done their best to ruin the lives and question the reputations of the sort of people who normally people in this society would consider off limits. You have only to look at the list of these people to know that there are things wrong right now with the Republicans that aren’t all that wrong with the Democrats. We don’t go after twelve year olds, accusing them and their families of being fakes. We’re not undermining soldiers left and right when they take political positions opposing the war. No Democrat I know would make a “phony soldiers” remark of the other side’s supporters in the military.

We would never have gone after the grieving mother of a soldier, never have outed a CIA agent for our political benefit. This current administration and the GOP have just gotten psychopathic in the kinds of attacks they feel are justifiable to use. I mean, I can understand playing hardball, and investigating the people who the other side picks as spokespersons, but there are lines to be drawn, and even I’m shocked that these people are crossing them.

The reality of the matter is that politics is somewhat irrelevant to this: nobody, for political party or other cause, should be seeking to destroy people’s lives like this. It’s an affront to common decency. Blaming the two party system is letting off the scumbags who lead people in these directions off easy. The two party system can function and has functioned in the past without people resorting to this kind of behavior.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 11, 2007 10:17 PM
Comment #235909

Just to give you a sense of what one major voice on the right is saying.

Like Hunter on Daily Kos asked, “has anybody ever heard of a FOX News employee being told they crossed the line… ever?

I mean, what does a fellow have to do in order to lose a job there, goosestep with a pointed hat singing hymns to the Aryan Race? Maybe they should hire Basil Fawlty.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 11, 2007 11:23 PM
Comment #235950

Traci: you claim that you lost your job because of high taxation and yet you claim that there are more jobs than there are people to fill them. Would you care to explain that?

Posted by: jlw at October 12, 2007 11:44 AM
Comment #236035

Outraged- I support your statements 100% You forgot

one Item. Once these Corporations have gotten

too the point where they are paying no taxes,

then they want to receive money to stay, after

they discovered they could get no taxes, and

much cheaper labour, in other Countries, Bush

tells them that they can move their Corporations

off shore an pay no taxes at all. Cost of doing

business with the Bush Administration has cost

Three Million Jobs in the American Work Force in

the past six years.

Posted by: -DAVID- at October 13, 2007 1:04 AM
Comment #236092


Yes, it’s really easy to explain.

I lost my job in Michigan (where I live)…

and the comment about “more jobs than people to fill them” was about Colorado…..where my sister moved.

It is pretty clear if you are reading the entirety of my posts..

Posted by: Traci at October 14, 2007 4:12 PM
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