Democrats & Liberals Archives

Ding dong the Arichtect is Dead: Rove Resigns

According to news reports (link), Karl Rove, the architect of the uber-conservative Republican guard, is resigning at the end of August.


According to White House officials, Rove is expected to write a book. i wonder if the working title is: "Dr. Rove or How i destroyed democracy and sold a dictatorship as the new black." i guess we'll find out when he does his book tour on the Daily Show.

The reports are sketchy about Rove's motives for leaving now. He's the premier teflon don, dodging every impending indictment and scandal. He's survived some of the most horrid allegations of political tampering and manipulation. So why is he resigning now?

Most of all, i think Bush will miss him the most; after all, what's a person to do without his 'brain'?

Let's see some of Rove's best options:


  • Could it be that he will be named the new head of the RNC for the upcoming 2008 elections?
  • Maybe he'll open up a string of dance schools (link).
  • Or maybe he'll just go on the lecture circuit talking about ethics (link)

Whatever he does, he'll be missed. You only get one Rove in a lifetime.

Posted by john trevisani at August 13, 2007 8:05 AM
Comments
Comment #229184

Wow, what a story!

I’m not that surprised that he is leaving the sinking USS George Bush. What surprises me is that he is apparently leaving politics altogether!

And he wants to… wait for it… spend more time with his family. Yeah, right. We all know that 90% of the time when someone says this it is just a cover story.

I don’t want to jumped to conclusions here, but this is very intriguing.

Posted by: Woody Mena at August 13, 2007 8:17 AM
Comment #229186

One of darkest chapters in America’s political history is coming to a close. I hope we find out what and how much damage has been done. If these men aren’t held accountable for some of their nefarious and ill-advised actions - the public and the nation will have been done a great disservice. Good-bye Karl, and please don’t ever darken our doorway again.

Posted by: Scott at August 13, 2007 8:52 AM
Comment #229187

MMMhhh, maybe he is lining up another job with whoever the next Republican running for president.

I wonder if all those indictments can be served once he leaves, and make his next living arrangements in the bar Hilton

Posted by: KT at August 13, 2007 8:56 AM
Comment #229192

The Republicans face major obstacles in the 2008 elections…does anyone think Rove will not be pulling strings and dishing dirt yet once again? He’s “quitting” so he has time to figure out more dirty tricks before the 2008 elections…or maybe he could finally go back to school and actually earn his bachelor’s degree, since he’s failed to that. A C-student as president and a drop-out as mastermind of elections…and we wonder why the country is in such bad shape…

Wouldn’t it be wonderful to find someone both educated and with loads of commonsense to be president (or even a congressman!!)…

Posted by: Rachel at August 13, 2007 10:20 AM
Comment #229193

John,

My first thought was who’s presidential campaign is he going to work for?

Fred Thompson’s?

Is Newt going to throw his hat in the ring?

Maybe Hillary’s? ;^)

Posted by: KansasDem at August 13, 2007 10:25 AM
Comment #229198

Awhhh!!! Are the BDS’ers upset that Rove didn’t resign b/c of an indictment?! Boo hoo! Now, we will see that Bush has his own “brain” and prove all the BDS crowd wrong (yet again)! Yet, keep up the attacks on conservatives; it is not like we have “other” enemies (Al qaeda,Iran, N.Korea, etc.) to deal with or anything.***

Posted by: rahdigly at August 13, 2007 10:47 AM
Comment #229201

Hate to say it, but has anyone thought Rove might try running for president himself next? I’d think he still has more than enough time to throw his hat in the ring.

Posted by: Jarandhel at August 13, 2007 11:05 AM
Comment #229204

As the sun begins to set on America’s formerly prosperous economy, we see just another rat leaving the sinking ship of Curious George’s shipwrecked presidency. And with the timeworn “time with the family” as the excuse, too! Ah, but remember kids, as with Hariet Miers, the Turd Blossom still gets to cling like a lifesaver to the “unitary-executive privilege” claim as he washes up on the Texas shore from whence so many of these (unapprehended) criminals sprang.
Turd Blossom, such an apt name, no? For after all the treasonous sh*t he’s pulled, he still came up smelling like a rose, when he should be rotting in jail.

As for what he’ll be doing now…
Perhaps moving from swing state to swing state before the ‘08 election? You know, “working” with elections officials (a la Ken Blackwell) to “affect” the next vote? Wouldn’t that fall right in line with his work to install all those “Loyal Bushie” state attorneys that replaced the former highly competent ones who were fired for “performance reasons”?
I mean, without his continued “hard work” there might not be another Neocon president to put the final touches on the next Gilded Age for these Robber Barons.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 13, 2007 11:32 AM
Comment #229207

He’s probably going to work for RMScaife on a new VRW conspiracy project.

Posted by: ohrealy at August 13, 2007 12:02 PM
Comment #229210


When these people took over the country, it was decided that Rove would run the domestic policy and the political war against the Democratic and the Republican parties, Dickie would run foreign policy and the two of them decided that George would be the decider.

Rove leaving now could be very significant. There could be a miraculous event in the near future.

Since election day 2004, Carl has had another candidate. The problem is that his candidate can’t even show his face in public until there is a miraculous victory in Iraq and our troops are coming home. If the miracle is going to happen, look for it around Christmas time.

Posted by: jlw at August 13, 2007 12:21 PM
Comment #229222
we see just another rat leaving the sinking ship of Curious George’s shipwrecked presidency…Perhaps moving from swing state to swing state before the ‘08 election? You know, “working” with elections officials (a la Ken Blackwell) to “affect” the next vote?
does anyone think Rove will not be pulling strings and dishing dirt yet once again? He’s “quitting” so he has time to figure out more dirty tricks before the 2008 elections
One of darkest chapters in America’s political history is coming to a close. I hope we find out what and how much damage has been done.


My goodness, listening to some of these comments, you should be thanking Rove and Bush. Huh…what?! Think about it, without those two, many of you wouldn’t have anything to gripe about and “protect” Americans from. I mean, it is not like we have real enemies to fear; it is just Rove & Bush.*****

Posted by: rahdigly at August 13, 2007 1:07 PM
Comment #229228

rahdigly, Rove is responsible, via his divisive tactics and strategy, for dividing the Republican Party and creating the Republican flight to Independent voter status. Is it safe to assume you are one of the only 29% who believe these two have actually governed well? You do realize a higher percentage believe earth has been visited by aliens, right?

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 13, 2007 1:57 PM
Comment #229230

Rove is not going to retire, not when he is this close to reaching his goal. He and his kind will not rest until the take over of the government by the republican crime family is complete. Some one that has done what he has to destroy this country and eliminate the middle class is not going away. You only have to look at the path of lies, theft, death and destruction to see they will stop at nothing to get what they want. He can do little more for the bush crime family, so he must move on to the next mafia don!!!!!!! This evil piece of garbage is preparing for the next phase of their sick demented plan, and they will destroy any one who gets in their way. He has dedicated his life to the cause. Now is not the time for us to let our guard down. These people are traitors, they hate us and they hate this country for what it once stood for. We must never fall asleep and let this happen again!!!!!!!!!!!!! They have the deck stacked against us and it will take a tremendous effort to over come the obstacles they have placed before us.

On election day we must get out and do the right thing!!!!!!! They have a book full of dirty tricks to use on us!!!!!! They have a tasted the power and greed and they want more!!! No amount of power and cash will ever satisfy them. The blood of our children means nothing to these people. I hope we can all survive until 2009. It will take years to undo the damage that has been done to this country and the world. We cannot afford to let them continue with their plan. It saddens me to think of all the lives that have been lost or destroyed by these animals. Carl Rove and the people of his cult are truly evil, ruthless and will stop at nothing for their sick cause.

Posted by: Outraged at August 13, 2007 2:10 PM
Comment #229233

Outraged, sorry, but you are just plain wrong. You are failing to see the root cause of what has transpired. These are not evil men and women. Rove was a specialist who got access to control in areas not within his area of expertise. This is a common tale in our highly specialized world.

Rove was a brilliant political election strategist. Bush was not bright or educated enough to recognize that the divisive tactics and strategy useful in elections is absolutely the worst possible tactic and strategy for governance in a democratic multi-party government where consensus is required to forge progress and effective solutions.

It is why the Immigration Bill went down in flames, it divided the Republican Congress from the Republican President making them foes to each other. See my article in the Center Column for details, Rove Signals End of Bush Presidency .

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 13, 2007 2:27 PM
Comment #229235

John,

I had to chuckle. When I first read the news Rove was resigning and I logged onto Watchblog my first thought was someone was going to start an entry with “ding dong the ( ) is dead”.

If only Rove would come out with a statement saying he isn’t really retiring but is going to get Hillary and her little dog too…

Posted by: chris2x at August 13, 2007 2:28 PM
Comment #229238

Folks, your envy of Karl Rove is just too obvious. Had he been a Democrat liberal you would be crowning him with saint-hood. I don’t believe I have heard such hatred of another human being since listening to some old KKK speeches. Shame on all of you. You are an embarrassment to humanity. Do you use the same mouth when speaking to your family or in church?

Posted by: Jim at August 13, 2007 2:36 PM
Comment #229240

And had he been a Democrat liberal YOU Jim would have denounced him for the trasher of our Constitution and political system which he has been.

Funny how the right shoe fits on the right foot regardless of which political party owns the foot, isn’t it?

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 13, 2007 2:40 PM
Comment #229244

Jim,

Your penchant for exaggeration and outrage is amazing. A few libs here called Rove “evil” (Outraged) and a few call him “brilliant” (David Remer). Now you compare us to the “KKK” and an “embarrassment to humanity”? Please.

Rove was a master of politics and dirty tricks. He won two notable elections when by traditional measurements his candidate should have lost. Even the last election took a near perfect storm to oust entrenched incumbents in congress and hand Rove a huge defeat. He was our nemesis and in my opinion, one who helped divide the country even further. I think Americans are naturally tiring of his kind of politics. Unfortunately, that doesn’t necessarily mean it doesn’t still work as much as turns off a certain segment of the electorate.

I don’t think his resignation means much except Bush becomes an even lamer duck.

Posted by: chris2x at August 13, 2007 3:02 PM
Comment #229249

David R. Remer

I thank you for your input and the link. I understand what you are saying, you have some good points. I just cannot see any good in these people given their track record. I do not see any good in what they have done. There are way too many failures to blame it on just on stupidity. I don’t think lack of education on bush’s part can account for all that has happened. This looks like a consistent plan, if you add it all up. You would have to be stupid and have lived in a bubble your entire life not to see the damage that has been done!!!!!!! If I make a mistake I try and turn things around and get back on track, I see no sign of that here. It looks like a blatant disregard for the well being of the people in this country. Every time there is a problem, their answer was to throw money at Halliburton. They never seem to be able to do anything in a commonsense manner. If you do put your collage buddies in charge of all the branches of government you would think that some of them would hire competent advisors to guide the in their task. I’m sorry David this looks like the plan all along to me.

Posted by: Outraged at August 13, 2007 3:26 PM
Comment #229256

Rahdigly-
You talk about Bush Derangement Syndrome as if all those years of intentionally divisive and abrasive leadership should somehow have resulted in a well-loved and well-respected president.

To put it in the words of the comic who once did impressions of Bush’s father: Not gonna happen.

What do you think you were gleefully cheering on all those years? Such tactics are a large part of what made the Republican party so unsympathetic for the longest time.

But the worst thing by far that folks like you let them do was cross the wires on politics and policy. It’s like that one guy complained: with Rove in charge, there was just a political arm, no policy arm.

Politics without policy is like a cancer cell; it just doesn’t know when to quit. Rove’s philosophy, and that of his party were carcinogenic to their reputations, their images, such that despite their best efforts, their actions defeated their own intentions. Look no further than DeLay’s indictment, to see how that works out.

Jim-
Envy? Had he been a Democratic Liberal, our gooses would have been cooked. His kind of politics is a curse on whoever practices it.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 13, 2007 3:45 PM
Comment #229259

HMMM…I heard he was going into exile on Elba.

Posted by: BillS at August 13, 2007 4:09 PM
Comment #229262

Outraged, I would refer you to a seminal work in sociology and psychology of organizations called “The Peter Principle”.

We have just witnessed the Peter Principle in full blown operation. Elevating folks to positions of incompetence on merit other than competence (i.e. loyalty). Granted, some actions have been wrong, some would say evil, but, the Peter Principle would attribute such actions and designs as those of people poor in relevant education and information or, to acts of defensiveness at the sight of opposition to their incompetence, which causes them to dig in their heels even after realizing they were wrong.

I don’t see it as sinister by design. It ended up sinister by egos unable to face failure even when it is hitting them over the head as a result of lack of general education of history and the application of expertise in areas outside that expertise.

NASA had to learn this lesson the hard way. For so long they tried to put experts in a specific field at the head of management over many fields of expertise which they knew little about. Catastrophic risk taking and ignorance resulted. Today, NASA has learned to put generalists in charge of management, people with some knowledge in many areas of expertise, who can rely upon and communicate with the myriad of specialists across fields of specialty and recognize when efforts and designs are at odds with each other.

Government is no less complex than space travel and habitat. It requires a host of specialists in a myriad of fields, and generalists with broad but necessarily more limited knowledge of a number of areas of expertise as the people in charge.

Regretfully, only the military and NASA are organized around this model of generalists at the top, and specialists in many fields below, communicating with and through the generalists whose knowledge and experience cover a large number of the specialists fields, and who can coordinate specialists trying to run the show from their narrow view of their specialized field.

We use to have this model throughout our medical care system, where a GP, or general practitioner, was trained and versed somewhat in all the areas of medical specialty and could diagnose medical maladies correctly and refer the patient to a doctor of the required specialization. A GP would no be trained in brain surgery, but, they would know enough to diagnose whether the patient’s headaches were caused by dehydration from 3 pots of coffee a day or a brain tumor and send the patient to either brain surgeon or a nutritionist.

Our medical system has departed a good deal from that system, which is part of why our medical health care costs and insurance rates on rapid elevator to bankruptcy. Over specialization can lead to enormous systematic malfunctions and inefficiencies, if someone is not managing and coordinating those specialists.

Rove was a political specialist and had no business advising Cheney/Bush on good governance. But, Bush, a management failure in his non-political ventures, could not recognize the difference. GW Bush was a good ole’ boy, congenial, stubborn, and determined, but an effective manager? Not even remotely.

Cheney suffered a similar malady, but with a different background. His experience was in corporate life, where facts and direction were determined by executive edict, regardless of reality or feedback. It is because I say it is. That can work in a corporation with a clearly defined mission statement known to all. But, that same person placed in a position of reliance and dependence upon facts and reality from others like Colin Powell, well, that Powell puppy has to go. Like Ashcroft and Plame, and so many others cut loose in, and at the end, of the first term, and beginning of the 2nd of the GW Bush administration.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 13, 2007 4:23 PM
Comment #229263
You talk about Bush Derangement Syndrome as if all those years of intentionally divisive and abrasive leadership should somehow have resulted in a well-loved and well-respected president.


It should have resulted in dissent, rather than hatred. The BDS crowd is full of blind hatred for Bush and they’ll do (and tried) anything they can to take this man down; even go through our soldiers to do it. Disgusting!


But the worst thing by far that folks like you let them do was cross the wires on politics and policy.

You must have ignored my posts; b/c I’ve disagreed with this President on a number of issues (Immigration, judges). When I agreed, I agreed, when I disagreed, I disagreed. I never hated! That is a fact! And, a big (big) difference!!

Posted by: rahdigly at August 13, 2007 4:24 PM
Comment #229276

rahdigly,

I was unaware of the term BD until you mentioned it in your first post of today. I assume you mean Bush Derangement by the letters “BD”.

That’s part of the problem we all have when we get our feathers stirred up - we tend to carry on about new terms, or ideas we don’t even agree with. From you I have learned what a neo-con, a Bushco, and now a BD is. There are several others you have taught me, but these seem to be the most frequent. Just think, had you not used the terms, they would have no meaning for me.

With help like yours, its no wonder that the Republican party is falling apart. Just remember the gossip game, or name calling works both ways.
I must however, thank you for the education you bring to me almost every time I read one of your posts.

As for Rove - While I am delighted, I find myself worrying a bit, after all - the enemy one knows is often easier to fight than the one you don’t know.

Posted by: Linda H. at August 13, 2007 8:06 PM
Comment #229282

Yeah, Linda, that is what I am here for; to “help” you & give you “meaning”.*** :-)

And, I am not the one that throws around the “neo-con” term; that would be the “blue column” bloggers that do that on a daily basis, I was just using their terms. Now, I did (however) use the Bush Derangement Syndrome (BDS) term, so I’ll definitely take credit for that.

I do have one more bit of advice or “help” (if you will) for you. Instead of learning the phrases, you ought to learn the difference between dissent and hatred; I have been saying that now for years on this blog. In fact, I reiterated that point just a few Comments ago.

Posted by: rahdigly at August 13, 2007 8:53 PM
Comment #229309

Jim:
“Folks, your envy of Karl Rove is just too obvious.”

The way I see it, this is just like saying we envy Tom Delay for having such amazing audacity that he believed he could do any damn crooked thing he wanted to do, yet not have the American people ever notice or catch on, and also somehow miraculously keep voting for Republicans no matter how low they continued to stoop.

“Had he been a Democrat liberal you would be crowning him with saint-hood.”

Wrong. THERE ARE NO LIBERALS IN EXISTENCE WHO COULD EVER ACT OR BE LIKE KARL ROVE. Indeed, most often this is what makes us intrinsically liberal. We value decency, honesty, and good character. People like Rove possess none of these things.
But you don’t want to cross liberals, and wrong liberals too many times, because then you’re put on the sh*t list, and you will fully deserve everything we are willing to say about you. Such is the case with a worm like Karl Rove.

“I don’t believe I have heard such hatred of another human being since listening to some old KKK speeches. Shame on all of you. You are an embarrassment to humanity. Do you use the same mouth when speaking to your family or in church?”

REALLY? SHAME ON US? WE are an EMBARRASSMENT to HUMANITY? BULLSH*T!!! This is what your “kind” Uncle Karl had to say about liberals:

“Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers. In the wake of 9/11, conservatives believed it was time to unleash the might and power of the United States military against the Taliban; in the wake of 9/11, liberals believed it was time to submit a petition. … Conservatives saw what happened to us on 9/11 and said: We will defeat our enemies. Liberals saw what happened to us and said: We must understand our enemies.”

Karl Rove can eat sh*t and die as far as I’m concerned. Hate him? Yeah, damn right I do. I hate his lying, bile filled, bottom-feeding guts. Because he has done nothing but lie about, and wrong liberals far too many times.


David Remer,
I think you’re being WAY, WAY too kind here. I agree with Outraged — I think that of among all of the Bushies, Karl Rove and Dick Cheney are the truly EVIL ones. Almost all of the rest of the administration we can, as you say, attribute to the Peter Principle, but NOT these two. They definitely fall into the Mafia Don category.

Rah:
“It should have resulted in dissent, rather than hatred.”

With this administration, we were put into free speech zones for our dissent — in complete defiance of our Constitution. Indeed, they don’t believe in the Constitution, and we know this. According to them, we can be labeled traitors. Sorry, but all of that calls for, no it demands, HATE. And they fully deserve every single shred of the hate we give them.

“The BDS crowd is full of blind hatred for Bush”

Correction: the entire Bush Administration. We know Lil’ George has been an immature, mentally deranged puppet on Dick and Karl’s string.

“and they’ll do (and tried) anything they can to take this man down;”

Wrong. If that were true, that pathethic motherf***er and every last one of his evil henchmen including Dick, the real president, would have been impeached by now. Sadly, too many in our “Democratic” majority were too timid to stand up and protect the Constitution.
BTW, don’t think many of us won’t remember the fact that they didn’t stand up and do the right thing.

“even go through our soldiers to do it.”

Newsflash: You no longer have the support of a great many of the soldiers. They’re not stupid. They know damn well these Neocons used them, abused them, maimed them, and killed them for no damn good reason.

“Disgusting!”

Yes, what they’ve done to them, what they’ve subjected them to IS extremely disgusting. Now with the economy melting down the way it is, I truly fear for these people in the years just ahead. And no matter what happens on that front, I hope that liberals will fight hardest on their behalf.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 13, 2007 11:09 PM
Comment #229315

Adrienne, the economy is NOT melting down. It is correcting for unregulated greed. Central Banks have flushed 350 billion dollars of liquidity into national banking, as has our Fed Reserve (which justifies why the Fed is necessary), and though there is psychological uncertainty dominating the equity markets, the short term fundamentals are still in decent shape. It is 5 years and further out that our economic fundamentals begin to shred, with the advent of a 10 Trillion Dollar national debt and the entitlement crisis facing us square in the face without resources or borrowing capacity to responsibly deal with it.

China’s lower officials are already threatening Bush’s bluster over imports with the 1 trillion dollars in treasuries they hold. But, for the moment, the economic fundamentals will support the middle class and wealthier, and the poorest 1/3 will not fare worse than in the past. The sub-prime bubble burst will affect a small percentage of middle class homeowners for a few years to come, as they struggle to hold onto their mortgages awaiting home prices to bounce back above what their notes of debt are for. They may be in for a long wait.

But, the impact on the short term economy (next 2 to 3 years) is small. The equity markets are seriously oversold below what fundamentals can support. This is a buying opportunity for investors who are willing and able to withstand the volatility.

It is the long term 401K and pension investors who will not be cashing in for another 10 years or longer that I am concerned about. Failure to meet the entitlement crisis responsibly and timely, and failure to halt the rise in national debt, are a one two punch our economic fundamentals cannot withstand that far out.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 13, 2007 11:44 PM
Comment #229324

“But, for the moment, the economic fundamentals will support the middle class and wealthier, and the poorest 1/3 will not fare worse than in the past.”

David, a large segment of our soldiers are now beginning to descend into the poorer segment of our society (they’re families have been borrowing an awful lot to get by), and I’m not entirely sure that they won’t fare worse in the years ahead than they already have been these past few years. The loss of their income due to having gone to war (in various ways) is going to affect these people, and their families. They’re going to need our help.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 14, 2007 12:16 AM
Comment #229351

Adrienne, a lot of people are going to need help. The abject poverty of the aged in the Mississippi Delta is an American shame (which is why it is getting little to no media attention). But, it doesn’t change the short term economic fundamentals which are measures of large aggregate groups of producing, consuming, saving behaviors, not small groups like veterans or aging in the Mississippi Delta. Relative to a population of 300 million, it is easy to lose track of the plight of small groups of 100’s of thousands in unique circumstances in the field of economics.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 14, 2007 9:52 AM
Comment #229356
a large segment of our soldiers are now beginning to descend into the poorer segment of our society (they’re families have been borrowing an awful lot to get by), and I’m not entirely sure that they won’t fare worse in the years ahead than they already have been these past few years. The loss of their income due to having gone to war (in various ways) is going to affect these people, and their families. They’re going to need our help.


You must not have (ever) served in the military, b/c most of the enlisted are (and have been) in the poorer section of society. It certainly was when I served (in the 90’s); it was that way when my Dad served (in the 60’s; as it was when my (Great) Uncle served in WWII. And, the military makes alot more in wartime (warzone pay, overseas pay, hazard pay, etc.), so you whining about people being broke in the military is (definitely) nothing new.

So, enough with this gripe at the war; they volunteered that is their choice, as it was mine, my Dad’s and my Great Uncle’s. We are grown ups, we do not need you whining about our choices and lifestyles. Worry about yourself.

Posted by: rahdigly at August 14, 2007 10:24 AM
Comment #229406

rahdigly, I actually agree with your reasoning on this. I have had a very uncomfortable position regarding the reenlistment and recruiting bonuses now amounting to large sums to retain active duty troops. I think this is absolutely the wrong way to fill military ranks.

If we want a volunteer military, we have an obligation to insure that our military campaigns are sufficiently supported by the public so that the military ranks will be adequately filled by patriots.

If we want to engage in unpopular military campaigns which the people will not support, then, the draft must be reinstated and the political fallout from it accepted.

But to dramatically indebt the national government to bribe ‘voluntary’ soldiers into an unpopular military campaign is, in my eyes, absolutely the wrong and most harmful way to handle military manpower and the worst basis for foreign policy for the nation and her people.

Foreign policy objectives must be supported by popular consent of the people to the extent that volunteers for military service are easily obtained. If volunteer military service cannot be easily or cheaply obtained, the foreign policy objectives have to be questioned.

In my view, the draft should only be instated in defense of attack or apparently coming attack directly upon the nation. All other military scenarios should be sufficiently backed by the public as to make volunteer recruits and reenlistments a cost effective proposition.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 14, 2007 6:09 PM
Comment #229431
But to dramatically indebt the national government to bribe ‘voluntary’ soldiers into an unpopular military campaign is, in my eyes, absolutely the wrong and most harmful way to handle military manpower and the worst basis for foreign policy for the nation and her people.


I strongly disagree with that statement; soldiers getting bonuses is no different (whatsoever) than civilians getting signing bonuses or getting more money to stay with a company. Do you call the civilians taking “bribes”? Also, there have always been signing bonus and (choice) redeployment assigments (i.e. getting Duty station of your choice) to keep experienced veterans. It is business 101; it is cheaper to keep experienced personnel, rather then recruiting new people b/c it cost more money to train.

Heck, now that there is a war, the ante should certainly be “upped” giving the hazard of the mission; that is part of life. The fact is the military, regardless of whether it is enlisted or commissioned personnel, are paid way lower than civilians. They also have much tougher jobs (in most cases) than civilians; I mean, do you want to go to Iraq and Afghansitan and brave those elements? Most people will not. That is just another reason why (today’s) military personnel is above and beyond the best in the world. They are educated, well-trained and (not to mention) courageous and they volunteered. So, if they receive $50,000 to re-enlist for 6 six years; that comes out to less than $10,000 per year, ontop of the $25,000 (per year), I say good for them. A salute! They are defending liberty and have to be away from their families for long periods of time. They deserve a hell of alot more respect to be refered to as “taking bribes”. Don’t you think?!

Posted by: rahdigly at August 14, 2007 10:33 PM
Comment #229434

…architect

Posted by: eric at August 14, 2007 10:40 PM
Comment #229479

rahdigly said: “I strongly disagree with that statement; soldiers getting bonuses is no different (whatsoever) than civilians getting signing bonuses or getting more money to stay with a company.”

Then let’s stop thanking them for their service since they, according to you, are in it for the money like every janitor or school bus driver in civilian life who may be offered a raise or bonus for their good work. We don’t run around publicly thanking janitors and bus drivers, creating public funded cemetaries for them, or honor them on Bus Drivers Day or Janitors federal holidays, now do we?

When it takes a $20-40 thousand dollar bonus above and beyond excellent free medical care, free room, board, clothing, transportation, life insurance, and a guaranteed regular paycheck to boot, it seems patriotism or the war policy is not what is retaining or recruiting soldiers.

When a nation has to bribe its civilians into enlisting, that nation may as well move to an all mercenary professional force which is in it for the money and dispense with the enormous tax dollar funded charade celebrating self-interest as if it were some kind of noble sacrifice.

These bonuses clearly indicate patriotism and love of nation and desire to sacrifice for one’s fellow countryman are not what motivate sufficient enlistments. There was no need of bonuses to recruit soldiers for WWII. Those were patriot soldiers who believed in the just cause of the war they volunteered to fight.

Same with Viet Nam except for the last few years of it, when reenlistment bonuses became necessary to keep manpower rolls up in what had become a very unpopular war for both a majority of civilians and a sizable portion of our military from general staff down to the lowly draftee ‘grunt’.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 15, 2007 9:40 AM
Comment #229494
Then let’s stop thanking them for their service since they, according to you, are in it for the money like every janitor or school bus driver in civilian life who may be offered a raise or bonus for their good work.


Read what I said (again):
“I strongly disagree with that statement; soldiers getting bonuses is no different (whatsoever) than civilians getting signing bonuses or getting more money to stay with a company.”


So, what you are saying is that you think giving the military raises and bonuses is “bribery” and civilians (janitors, school bus drivers, etc.) is just good business (part of life)?!!!

Come on Dave, actually tell us how you really feel about the military and their place in (US) society…

Posted by: rahdigly at August 15, 2007 12:13 PM
Comment #229511

rahdigly, janitors and bus drivers don’t get 20-40 thousand dollars every 3 years to stay on for another 3 years.

Thanks for the irrational reply. You can’t discount reality to try to salvage the integrity of your argument.

First you tell Adrienne the enlisted military has a proud tradition in your family of enlisting at poor pay. Then you turn right around and defend these exorbident bonuses (bribes) to maintain manpower during an unpopular war (Your grandad I am sure was not drawn to serve by bonuses, was he?)

Then you argue soldier’s re-up bonuses are no different than bus drivers and janitors compensation packages. Man, your comments could not be more irrational, out of touch with reality, and on every side of the issue if they were uttered by an hallucinating schizophrenic.

When your comments are anchored in reality and you decide whether soldiers should be treated like bus drivers and janitors or not, let me know, and we can try to conduct a rational debate on the topic.

Let me also point out that our entire society would come to grinding halt in just 72 hours if janitors did not serve the crucial role they play. But, we don’t offer them 20 to 40 thousand dollars every 3 or 4 years to sign on for another 3 or 4 years.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 15, 2007 3:32 PM
Comment #229553

David, you are avoiding the central issue that you brought up and that is you think the soldiers are being “bribed” (your words) or taking “bribes” to stay on. I am saying that, one, it is not a bribe and that, two, it is no different than civilians getting offered bonus packages to stay with a company (b/c they are valuable to them) or even switching jobs (the same position with a different company) for more money. No difference! Neither (in my opinion) are what you call taking “bribes”.

You need to look at the comments I made, starting with the one to adrienne, about the military service; I have nothing but admiration for all that served throughout the different eras. Today’s military is the best, mainly b/c they are (still) getting sh*t pay for a tremendous service; a service, by the way, that they “volunteered” for! And, you think an extra $10K per year, ontop of the $25K, (that is 35K per year for all those mathematicians out there) is bribery to serve this country. Ha! I specifically said they were “courageous” and they “deserved” those bonuses; like actuarians, salespeople, computer techs, and all other civilian jobs that give bonuses and incentives to their employees.

So, if you want to discredit today’s (volunteer) military and denigrate them for the bonuses, b/c you don’t like the war or that they are enlisting and re-enlisting at a high rate (they are making their quotas yet again this year), then have the fortitude to stand up and say it on your own. Don’t try to spin my words to villify me; b/c it is not going to happen! I love my country, my (volunteer) service, and all those who fight and “volunteer” (there is that word again!) in today’s military!! Damn skippy!

Posted by: rahdigly at August 15, 2007 10:27 PM
Comment #229648

rah….you’re about to find yourself in the middle of a major firefight yourself shortly!
First of all, BY OUR USUAL STANDARDS, these aren’t the best. And before you get your knickers in a buch, I’m saying that not because they are volunteering to do an ugly and predominantly unpopular job with this war, but, because more and more of them are druggies, dropouts, and sociopaths of varying types. And those bonuses are most certainly bribes ! Also, if you’d read something that isn’t falling over to the right side, you’d see that we don’t have a high enough troop level to sustain this bullshit fight, and more people are against this war, than for it.
And I’ll post this again:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070816/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/army_suicides_14

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at August 16, 2007 2:58 PM
Comment #229654

More US Soldiers Deeper In Debt

Posted by: Adrienne at August 16, 2007 3:52 PM
Comment #229722

Oh, they are the best; it is a shame (not to mention disgusting) that you cannot see that. And, it is not the war that is the reason they are drunk or in debt; the military has always been that way. Of course, you would know that if any of you actually ever served in the military.

Some of you should read what you are posting; it is as if some are actually happy and “elated” that there is all this hardship in (and for) the military. Some of your drool is noticable to the blogoshpere; not to mention you can hear the panting. BDS sure does make some of you post some odd and hateful sh*t. Yikes.

Posted by: rahdigly at August 17, 2007 8:35 AM
Comment #229760

Rahdigly’s post calls for repeating what David said to him again:

Man, your comments could not be more irrational, out of touch with reality, and on every side of the issue if they were uttered by an hallucinating schizophrenic.
Posted by: Adrienne at August 17, 2007 3:51 PM
Comment #230218

Rove’s Legacy is secure. He ran George Bush into the governor’s office and all the way to president of the US….twice! He masterminded brilliant defeats of the left that stung so badly the left resorted to declaring that both elections were ‘stolen’ rather than admit defeat.

Rove Defeated “war hero” John Kerry & the “creator of the internet” Big Al Gore.

Not much of a line up there on the left. A lying radicalized far left John Kerry and his imaginary Cambodia war experience, lying about tossing his medals away, etc etc…(loved that silly rich man surfing photo shoot, that cost him some votes…and his wacko wife).

And then there was Big Al, the radical environmentalist who is clearly nothing more than side-kick material. Pumping bad science even back then,…as a message from God. Slick Willie’s bad mojo rubbed off on Al more than it did on Slick Willie. The Clintons were so corrupt Gore had to ask them not to help him! So he lost it, all on his own. Big Mistake. LAUGH.

I’d have to say that the left did everything they could to hand it to Rove and Bush, there was no need to steal anything, the left surrendered it before they stated. but Still, Rove was charmed. He went the distance and won the Whitehouse twice.

Posted by: Stephen at August 22, 2007 2:07 AM
Comment #230948

john trevisani- As you may note from some of these
posts john, the rotten apples are not falling far
from the tree. I would not be optimistic that Rove
and Company will be far from Diebold, nor that we
can count on any honest ELECTIONS. These Robber-
Barron’s will be with us for a long time. Put your
hat on tight, because we are in for an unpredictable
tight race against those who wish take away some of
our freedoms, and to alter our Constitution as we
now hold so trustingly true.

Posted by: -DAVID- at August 29, 2007 4:34 AM
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