Democrats & Liberals Archives

Undocumented workers and the war effort

Remember the March 2007 raid of Michael Bianco Inc. in New Bedford, Massachusetts. Over 300 Immigration and Customs agents raided the factory and detained 361 undocumented workers. The workers were detained and separated from their families - some from young children and infants.

While the scale of the raid itself is stunning, even more stunning is that Michael Bianco Inc. has over $100 million in contracts with the U.S. military. The undocumented workers (some under 16 years of age) were working on military contracts making everything from specialized equipment backpack to body armor for U.S. forces. The workers reported their working conditions as "horrible." However, it was not underage workers, or poor working conditions that brought out enforcement.

One might ask why a major military contractor is recruiting and employing undocumented workers (most of the detained from Guatemala).

One might ask why it took as many agents to round up these workers as there were workers.

One might ask what is supposed to happen to children left behind.

One might ask why this story isn't headline news, and what kind of punishment Michael Bianco Inc. has received.

One might ask who is now making the body armor for the troops.

One might ask what is going on with other contractors.

One might ask why the corporate news isn't all over this story.

Posted by Rowan Wolf at March 24, 2007 9:58 PM
Comments
Comment #213570

Rowan, One might also ask why the Company’s brass would get less of a fine than the guy making the fake ID.
As to the other questions
1. Money
2. Serious about detaining the illegals.
3. They should be allowed to go home with the parents.
4.Anna Nicole Smith need I say more?
5.Hopefully Americans
6.Ill bet a few are thinking they may want to change their ways.
7.Anna Nicole Smith
Its well past time to get the illegals rounded up and deported. More raids of this type are needed and much higher fines for those hiring the illegals.

Posted by: j2t2 at March 24, 2007 10:56 PM
Comment #213585

One might ask is there anything that is not screwy with this government? If it’s happening in New Bedford it’s happening elsewhere. No telling what else is happening with our taxes.

We are ripe for the pickin’ because of the incompetency of our leaders, a bunch of people who know how to win elections, but understand nothing else. Their job description has become wrangling for position to win re-election. Meanwhile the problems keep increasing from a lack of intelligent governing. Everyone should be outraged. Blame lies on both sides of the aisle. Did anyone read the Patriot Act?

Shame on us for letting these people ruin this country. We closed our eyes while we were fed new cars, computers, mammoth size homes, Desperate Housewifes, Anna Nicole, Brit, gay marriage, flag burning and the American Dream. Menwhile, these crooked politicians and all their friends got rich. We let a war happen based on the fear that is bombarded at us daily and now the world is proven right, we are a country of idiots.

New Bedford is a drop in the ocean, the tip of the iceberg, that’s why it ain’t item one on the news. That can a worms has been open for awhile. Yes it is very important news and deserves more attention, but the news is only 30 minutes. We will have to be happy knowing that we’re fighting them over there, so we don’t have to fight them here. What? National Security should start here at home, not the Middle East.

Posted by: chuck at March 25, 2007 12:07 AM
Comment #213586

Considering that you link to two articles about this in both the Boston Globe and Houston Chronicle and it was on CNN, it’s not as if the story isn’t being covered.

What I wonder is if this is an effect of US attorneys recently losing their jobs for not enforcing immigration law.

After all, this action was ordered by US Attorney Michael J. Sullivan on behalf of the Bush Justice Department and Homeland Security.

Posted by: Loyal Opposition at March 25, 2007 12:08 AM
Comment #213594

LO-
The poor performance stuff is just a canard. Hell, they were going to make one of them an Immigration Judge.

The real question is why we’re allowing undocumented workers at a plant where sensitive military technology might be manufactured. That should scare the living crap out of you if you really think about it.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at March 25, 2007 12:32 AM
Comment #213595

I somehow doubt that leather goods for backpacks and safety vests falls under the label of “sensitive military technology,” but your larger point makes sense. We shouldn’t have undocumented foreigners working in ANY industries.

Posted by: Loyal Opposition at March 25, 2007 12:37 AM
Comment #213597

LO-
I’d say I support regular, unannounced immigration enforcements for all Defense contractors and subcontractors. We should keep a tighter ship on national security than what the above indicates.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at March 25, 2007 12:48 AM
Comment #213600
LO- I’d say I support regular, unannounced immigration enforcements for all Defense contractors and subcontractors. We should keep a tighter ship on national security than what the above indicates.

Agreed, and part of keeping a tighter ship on national security needs also to be indicting and prosecuting everybody involved in all of the sensitive national security secrets that are routinely leaked and published in American newspapers like the New York Times and Washington Post.

It’s fine to crack down on illegal immigrants, but poor Guatemalan laborers do not rank very highly as national security threats in comparison to a lot of our partisan journalists.

Posted by: Loyal Opposition at March 25, 2007 12:55 AM
Comment #213604

This is good. The illegals are getter exactly what they deserve. If they want to commit fraud coming into this country, then they should expect to be deported if caught. What is wrong about enforcing our laws like a sovereign nation?

Posted by: Andrew at March 25, 2007 1:31 AM
Comment #213617

Kudos to ICE

Posted by: tomd at March 25, 2007 4:24 AM
Comment #213621

LO-
The SWIFT program, cited as one example, was not secret. Efforts like that were publicized in October of 2002 in a UN document discussing methods of financial counterterrorism.

The case of the NSA program was confounded by it’s illegal nature. There was a FISA court cleared for such material set up to handle that kind of information. They bypassed it.

There is a balance to be had here, between the public’s right to know, and the preservation of public safety. The Bush Administration has to follow the law, even in a time of war. There was no provision to avoid unwarranted surveillance of Americans. This wasn’t a momentary, emergency breach of civil liberties, as one would expect and even ask for in a time of war, this was an ongoing persistent program with little oversight which was given up by NSA officials who had moral quandaries about it.

When reading about both programs, I didn’t read about any operational details that could give away the specific manner in which this was done. Nothing about the nature of the computer programs, technical details, or financial surveillance is really spoken of.

What was revealed was the existence of wiretap and financial surveillance. But would that surprise these people? It’s not a secret if just about everybody would suspect it anyways. What made the NSA program news, and controversial to boot, was not that we were doing electronic surveillance on these people, but that it was being done on Americans without warrants.

Additionally, there’s two more questions: One, whether they’ve already caught on. With SWIFT, they long ago caught on. As the article linked above indicates, they caught on to the financial surveillance and went off the grid with the Hawala system. SWIFT, as effective as it was, had its day pass, since the terrorists put two and two together on what happened when they used electronic transfers.

On the subject of the NSA surveillance, it might not have even been all that good. According to The One Percent Doctrine, the problem with this program was what I call the artificial stupidity problem. Put simply, the programs could not distinguish context to figure out what information was good intelligence, and what what wasn’t. The program couldn’t tell the difference between somebody using “wedding”, “big meal” or some other codeword to indicate an attack, and somebody just using it to indicate those things literally. The Data mining has its limits, and they are fundamentally human limits.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at March 25, 2007 11:06 AM
Comment #213622

The government is not serious about stopping illegal immigration.
A few raids here or there is just to pacify voters who are eager to hear what they want so they can put it out of their mind.
The sad fact is that while most Americans are opposed to illegal immigration, porous borders, amnesty, and guest worker programs, most politicians have other plans.

Democrats want votes.
Republicans want cheap labor.
Voters want it stopped.

National security is one of the primary duties of the federal government, but Homeland Security is a bit of a joke when illegal aliens are flooding across the borders by the millions.
Congress voted on a fence, but no money for it.

Raising the minimum wage is a bit of a joke when cheap labor is flooding across the borders, and the laws against employing illegal aliens are ignored.

Too many politicians are despicably pitting American citizens and illegal aliens against each other.

Yet voters keep rewarding irresponsible incumbent politicians by repeatedly re-electing them.

One might ask who is now making the body armor for the troops.
Hmmmmm …
  • Where is the compassion for U.S. citizens that go without healthcare and access to ERs because ERs and hospitals are over-flowing with illegal aliens (of which many don’t pay)? Is this fair to U.S. tax payers?
  • Where is the compassion for the truly needy U.S. citizens that can not get help because of limited resources, and the 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare ?
  • Where is your compasssion for the 2.3 million displaced American workers?
  • Where is the compassion for the U.S. tax payers net losses of over $70 billion per year due to all the numerous problems stemming from illegal aliens?
  • Where is the outrage of the greedy employers of illegal aliens ?
  • Where is the compassion for the U.S. victims and survivors of perpetrated by illegal aliens (29% of all incarcerated in U.S. federal prisons are illegal aliens), and the crime rates are rising in many cities (especially Los Angeles and other border cities).
  • Where is the compassion for U.S. Americans who’s lives have been changed forever by illegal aliens that spread disease ? One illegal alien in Santa Barbara, California infected 56 other people with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak”. Because illegal alien migration into the USA continues unabated for the past 20 years, we now have 16,000 new cases of incurable MDR tuberculosis in the past five years. We suffer 7,000 new cases of leprosy. We tolerate 100,000 new cases of hepatitis “A” in our society. Chagas Disease, which affects 14 million South Americans and kills 50,000 annually, streams across our borders as unchecked thousands of them enter our society. If your child goes to public school, they could be exposed, as thousands already have been.
  • Where is the compassion for the 3.6 people murdered each day by an illegal alien (Source: GAO-05-646R based on study group of 55,322 illegal aliens over a 57 year period)
  • Where is the compassion for all of the U.S. policemen murdered by illegal aliens? On 13-Nov-2005, Brian Jackson, a Dallas policeman was shot and killed by an illegal alien, Juan Lizcano. Lizcano had become drunk and went to the home of his ex-girfriend to threaten her. As the police pursued Lizcano after he fled the woman’s home, he shot Officer Jackson, who died later in the hospital. Officer Jackson was remembered by his fellow police as someone who loved his job and always went the extra mile. In Denver, Colorado, an illegal deliberately ran over a Denver polceman in a school cross walk “breaking his legs along with severe internal injuries. This is not anectdotal. This tragedy has occurred over and over in many cities across the U.S. Those are crimes that should have never happened.

Congress won’t become responsible until the voters doo too, and that ain’t gonna happen by rewarding politicians for being irresponsible and continually selling out their fellow Americans.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2007 11:18 AM
Comment #213623

So back to the main premise of this article; it seems that the Federal Government is failing the American people again…what a surprise…

As for illegal immigration, which is a oxymoron, every two generations or so, there is a fade of xenophobia and such. The illegal alien scare will pass sooner or later when we all come back to our god given senses…hopefully…

Posted by: greenstuff at March 25, 2007 11:51 AM
Comment #213625

greenstuff

as to your first comment i whole heartedly agree.as for this next one.

“As for illegal immigration, which is a oxymoron, every two generations or so, there is a fade of xenophobia and such. The illegal alien scare will pass sooner or later when we all come back to our god given senses…hopefully…”

this has nothing to do with xenophobia. many of us have lived with mexican immigrants, and those of mexican dissent for generations. this is not the problem. the problem is the financial and social burdens placed on our society by the the illegal imigrants.

they tend to low skilled and uneducated. they displace american workers in many areas, such as construction trades, and so on. these are not jobs americans won’t do. they displace younger workers in restaurant and fast food type jobs, ie entry level stuff you and i used to do as kids to make extra money. they are willing to work for lower wages thus depressing wages that normally would have been paid to american workers.

they tend to start families whos children are now causing overcrowding in our schools, and the taxes they pay if any, as many work under the table, don’t even come close to covering the cost of educating them. they tend to use our emergency rooms as primary care facilities for themselves and thier children. they can’t be turned away even if they can’t pay,thus raising the cost of health care for the rest of us who must make up the difference. not to mention the fact that since thier children are considered citizens they are eligable for many social services such as free school lunches etc.

i don’t blame anyone for wanting a better life but this is out of control.we have to be able to regulate who comes into this country. we cannot afford to absorb all the worlds poor.

Posted by: dbs at March 25, 2007 12:39 PM
Comment #213641

dbs,

I think he has a valid point that xenophobia is used by those with agendas other than reducing the use of illegals to lower wages.

If you blame the illegals, then you don’t have to examine why capitalistic butchery of our economy is okey dokey.

That would explain why the coprorate CEO’s aren’t serving time in jail for using these illegals. Who’s the worse criminal, the guy trying to feed his family or the pig enriching himself on the underclsses?

Posted by: gergle at March 25, 2007 2:01 PM
Comment #213646

Good article Rowan. The truth is, I hadn’t even heard about this, so thanks for drawing it to my attention.

Gergle, well said. My thoughts exactly.

StephenD:
“I’d say I support regular, unannounced immigration enforcements for all Defense contractors and subcontractors. We should keep a tighter ship on national security than what the above indicates.”

Absolutely agree. Once again we learn that Bushco is doing a “heckuva job” focusing on national security.

Posted by: Adrienne at March 25, 2007 2:19 PM
Comment #213648

gergle

couldn’t agree more. we need to make these employers pay the price for hiring illegals. this would reduce the incentive to come here. you would then deport those caught as you encounter them. there is no way to deport 12 million people all at once, but over time they would leave because they could not find work, or they would be caught and deported. the next step would be to caculate how many we could allow in on an annual basis, and make the process more reasonable. obviously this will only work if we start by controling our boarders.

Posted by: dbs at March 25, 2007 2:25 PM
Comment #213652

gergle

one other point. the majority of the democratic party is not helping either. they see future voters. the repubs are paying off big business. so the rest of us are SOL. there are agendas on both sides.

Posted by: dbs at March 25, 2007 2:31 PM
Comment #213663

gergle,

You’re right.
Whose worse?

  • (a) The illegal alien merely looking for a job?

  • (b) Or most of our own irresponsible incumbent politicians that ignore the laws which are essentially pitting American citizens and illegal aliens against each other?

greenstuff wrote: … there is a fade of Xenophobia and such. The illegal alien scare will pass sooner or later …
Xenophobia?

That’s a common excuse, along with racism, irredentism, cornucopianism, globalism, practicality, humanitarianism, etc.

Wide open borders not only invites illegal aliens, but a myriad of other problems and burdens.
There’s no mystery about why it occurs.
Many Republican politicians want cheap labor (good for profits).
Many Democrat politicians want cheap labor and votes too (Democrats know, if illegal aliens are given amnesty, most will vote Democrat).

What is a mystery is why voters, most of which want it stopped, keep rewarding by repeatedly re-electing irresponsible incubment politicans for pitting American citizens and illegal aliens against each other by refusing to enforce existing laws. Already, illegal immigration is costing U.S. tax payers over $70 billion per year in net losses.

President Bush wants amnesty for illegal aliens. Do you agree with the President?
A Polling Station poll of 9,174 people shows:
________ Yes ______ No _______ Undecided
Dem ____ 27.6% ____ 60.1% ____ 12.3%
Ind ____ 16.5% ____ 72.5% ____ 11.0%
Rep ____ 10.9% ____ 81.3% ____ 7.8%
18.4% believe amnesty is a good idea.
71.2% do not believe amnesty is a good idea.
10.4% were undecided.

And check out this list of Congress persons that voted YES to allow illegal aliens to participate in Social Security. Never mind that Social Security is already $12.8 trillion in debt, and Medicare is facing large shortfalls. How is importing the less educated and impoverished going to help the majority of Americans? It won’t and most Americans know it and understand the burdens on our schools, ERs, hospitals, healthcare, prisons, law enforcement, and voting systems (costing American citizens over $70 billion per year in net losses; over $10 billion per year for California alone). Yet, those same voters keep re-electing the same politicians that keep ignoring them and pitting them against illegal aliens.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2007 2:56 PM
Comment #213667
dbs wrote: … the majority of the democratic party is not helping either. they see future voters. the repubs are paying off big business. so the rest of us are SOL. there are agendas on both sides.

dbs,
You’re right.
Congress is ignoring the majority of voters.
How do they get away with it?
Because too many voters keep re-electing them; rewarding them for it.

Congress won’t be responsible until the voters are too.
That most likely won’t happen until the painful consequences of it all finally comes to bear on the average (most) American, and that may not be too far away.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2007 3:05 PM
Comment #213668

Sorry, this is off-topic, but if Stephen Daughtery is reading, I just wanted to give him a heads up: I just tried to post under his “What’s The Big Secret” article below, but something wouldn’t allow my comment to appear.

Posted by: Adrienne at March 25, 2007 3:09 PM
Comment #213670

You’re on there now Adrienne….. I’ve wondered why there have been no responses….maybe a techincal glich, that appears to be ok now…

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at March 25, 2007 3:13 PM
Comment #213671

Nevermind Stephen - scratch that last comment. My comment just appeared under your article.

Posted by: Adrienne at March 25, 2007 3:14 PM
Comment #213678

I always hesitate to post on immigration and immigrants because it seems to bring out the rhetoric about security and what a drain immigrants are on the U.S.

Immigrants, particularly undocumented immigrants are an easily exploitable labor force. Immigrants (not all, but many) are a CHEAP labor force. That “cheapness” goes two place - profit for employers, and lower costs (much lower costs) for US consumers and tax payers.

Look at what is happening in agriculture - Colorado for example - where because they aren’t getting undocumented farm labor they are petitioning to use prisoners in the fields.

How much does the exploitation of these works SAVE the US consumer/tax payer? I have no idea, but I imagine it is huge.

Most of these workers also pay taxes and social security; however, they don’t collect it. I read somewhere last year that there are billions of dollars in social security from immigrant worker wages (documented and undocumented).

We rarely discuss the fact that we are subsidizing corporate labor costs for their low wage and lack of benefits for all workers earning below living wages.

You don’t get over 300 undocumented workers in one factory without the knowledge and approval of the factory owner. This military contractor subverted the laws of the United States, but I have not heard one word about canceling the contracts Michael Bianco Inc has. Why not?

I get sick of hearing “round up all them illegals” when they are being recruited by US businesses who get off with virtually no consequences. I am positive this company is not the only one doing this. Why aren’t they being banned as US contractors? Why should all the pain fall on the workers?

Posted by: Rowan Wolf at March 25, 2007 4:16 PM
Comment #213689

Rowan-
I’d say this: of course we should penalize the people doing this. I think fines or penalties on contracts for the first few incidents and then cancellation of contracts if it persists.

And of course enforce fines and punishments as would be normal for such an offense.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at March 25, 2007 5:17 PM
Comment #213691
Rowan Wolf wrote: I always hesitate to post on immigration and immigrants because it seems to bring out the rhetoric about security and what a drain immigrants are on the U.S.
It is an issue of security.

  • Where is the compassion for the U.S. tax payers net losses of over $70 billion per year due to all the numerous problems stemming from illegal aliens?
    • 3.6 people are murdered each day by an illegal alien (Source: GAO-05-646R based on study group of 55,322 illegal aliens over a 57 year period).
    • 29% of all incarcerated in U.S. federal prisons are illegal aliens, and the crime rates are rising in many cities (especially Los Angeles and other border cities). In Los Angeles alone (in 2004), 95% of 1200 homicide arrest warrants are for illegal aliens, and 66% of 17,000 fugitive felony arrest warrants are for illegal aliens.
    • One illegal alien in Santa Barbara, California infected 56 other people with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak”. Because illegal alien migration into the USA continues unabated for the past 20 years, we now have 16,000 new cases of incurable MDR tuberculosis in the past five years. We suffer 7,000 new cases of leprosy. We tolerate 100,000 new cases of hepatitis “A” in our society. Chagas Disease, which affects 14 million South Americans and kills 50,000 annually, streams across our borders as unchecked thousands of them enter our society. If your child goes to public school, they could be exposed, as thousands already have been.
    Rowan Wolf wrote: Immigrants, particularly undocumented immigrants are an easily exploitable labor force. Immigrants (not all, but many) are a CHEAP labor force. That “cheapness” goes two place - profit for employers, and lower costs (much lower costs) for US consumers and tax payers.
    The net losses (over $70 billion per year) to U.S. tax payers exceed any benefits. It is a myth that the nation would crumble without illegal aliens and cheap labor, since the overall cost is a net loss of over $70 billion annually.
    Rowan Wolf wrote: Look at what is happening in agriculture - Colorado for example - where because they aren’t getting undocumented farm labor they are petitioning to use prisoners in the fields.
    That still doesn’t justify illegal immigration. You can pick a lot of lettuce for $70 billion per year.
    Rowan Wolf wrote: How much does the exploitation of these works SAVE the US consumer/tax payer? I have no idea, but I imagine it is huge.
    It doesn’t save us anything.

    There is a net loss to American tax payers of over $70 billion per year.

    Rowan Wolf wrote: Most of these workers also pay taxes and social security; however, they don’t collect it.
    About half only. Who cares if they don’t collect it. Besides, 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare.
    Rowan Wolf wrote: I read somewhere last year that there are billions of dollars in social security from immigrant worker wages (documented and undocumented).
    It still is far exceeded by the net losses to U.S. tax payers of over $70 billion per year.
    Rowan Wolf wrote: You don’t get over 300 undocumented workers in one factory without the knowledge and approval of the factory owner. This military contractor subverted the laws of the United States, but I have not heard one word about canceling the contracts Michael Bianco Inc has. Why not?
    Anyone knowingly employing illegal aliens should be arrested.
    Rowan Wolf wrote: I get sick of hearing “round up all them illegals” when they are being recruited by US businesses who get off with virtually no consequences. I am positive this company is not the only one doing this. Why aren’t they being banned as US contractors? Why should all the pain fall on the workers?
    No need to round ‘em all up. Just stop hiring them and secure the borders.

    SOLUTION.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2007 5:27 PM
    Comment #213694

    Rowan,

    Great article as usual. I know many think I’m “overboard” on the undocumented immigrant issue, but I truly believe we’re approaching the third American genocide. The first two of course being our slaughter of the American Indian and the second being the wholesale enslavement and murder of African slaves.

    With the advent of vigilante groups “guarding” our border it’s only a matter of time until we see the kinds of atrocities that are an undeniable part of our nations past history. Already we’ve seen MSM coverage of incredibly poor living conditions in detention centers for “illegals”.

    Much of this is due to a rise in narcissism that astonishes me. We want what we want when we want it, including being rid of those who provided what we wanted, when we want them gone. We’re sadly becoming a “caste” society. Those in the upper “castes” say, “50% of American’s are doing very well!”

    Yes, they are, but at least 15 to 20% are not doing well at all. Those are sad numbers for the wealthiest nation on the face of the earth. Sadder yet is the fact that we begrudge helping our fellows. At this rate it’s only a matter of time until we rejoin the “third world”.

    Posted by: KansasDem at March 25, 2007 5:37 PM
    Comment #213697

    d.a.n.

    Job #1 better be securing the borders. Contrary to what Bush and Cheney say the terrorists are not waiting until we leave Iraq to set up new operations.

    Given the volatility of many South American governments it’s not at all unlikely that the next attack will come from south of the border.

    I don’t leave my doors unlocked all the time. We’ve done a damn poor job of securing our borders and ports.

    Posted by: KansasDem at March 25, 2007 5:50 PM
    Comment #213699

    KansasDem,
    I agree.
    I don’t think terrorists have WMD yet.
    But when they do, there will be little to stop them from strolling right across our near-wide-open borders.
    Homeland Security is a joke when the borders are so porous.

    KansasDem wrote:With the advent of vigilante groups “guarding” our border it’s only a matter of time until we see the kinds of atrocities …
    Yes, that is truly a sad situation. There’s no need for it. This is one of the ways irresponsible incumbent politicians are despicably pitting American citizens and illegal aliens against each other, rather than secure the borders and enforce the existing laws.

    Greed is the problem.
    The greed of those that employee illegal aliens, and the greed of the politicians that cater to their whims.

    Yet, too many voters keep rewarding those politicians for it.

    When will it end?

    When it becomes too painful, and we are on our way. Many painful consequences are already in the pipeline. They could be mitigated, but I’m fairly certain they will run the usual course, and we will all have to learn the hard way (again).

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2007 6:00 PM
    Comment #213706

    d.a.n.

    Thanks for the link to the GAO report. Two things that should be made very clear is that this was not a “random sample,” but an analysis of immigrants who were already incarcerated - in other words 55,322 “illegal” immigrants. Two the sample covered a 57 year period. In other words from 1946-2003. That is a long time a several different populations of illegal immigrants - including the convicts that Castro released that were immediately reimprisoned on their arrival in the US.

    Posted by: Rowan Wolf at March 25, 2007 6:39 PM
    Comment #213711

    kansasdem


    “With the advent of vigilante groups “guarding” our border it’s only a matter of time until we see the kinds of atrocities that are an undeniable part of our nations past history.”

    this is nonsense these people are doing nothing but observing, and reporting it to the authorities. they have every right to be down there on that border. the only reason there armed is to protect themselves from the violent drug smugglers, and coyotes that don’t want them there, and would kill them if given the opportunity. if they had killed one of these migrants or otherwise it would be all over the news. if the gov’t was doing it’s damn job they wouldn’t even be there.

    you try to paint this as the repubs. fault, but the dems. aren’t doing jack either. thier trying to pass an amnesty bill as we speak, it’s the only thing they can agree on with pres.

    Posted by: dbs at March 25, 2007 7:23 PM
    Comment #213714

    Rowan,
    Yes, I know it was 57 years.
    I disclosed that above.
    Today, it is even worse.
    Some are reporting far worse statistics.
    Still, 3.6 murders per day is unacceptable, since those are murders that should have never occurred.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 25, 2007 7:44 PM
    Comment #213716

    “I don’t think terrorists have WMD yet.”

    d.a.n.

    What was the second worst terrorist attack in the USA? OKC? They were domestic. Terry Nichols lived 35 miles from me. For crying out loud, my second wife is married to one of his brothers!

    WMD can be produced with ease right here in the USA! When you think about the patience it took to coordinate 9-11 it’s not at all hard to consider that several dozen Spanish speaking members of Al Quaeda could settle in and create WMD’s right here. Especially since so many work in agriculture.

    Does anyone think Arabs are too stupid to learn the Spanish language? And fertilizer and diesel fuel are really hard to get ahold of! If one of these groups could “dirty up” a bomb of the same type as the OKC bomb just think of the devastation.

    It doesn’t need to be “hi-tech”. Jets were turned into missiles for crying out loud. We’ve done virtually nothing to prevent “lo-tech” attacks. We’ve even opened the borders to more unregulated foreign truck traffic.

    Securing our borders and ports should be job #1! That’s true no matter where a person stands on the immigration issue.

    Posted by: KansasDem at March 25, 2007 7:53 PM
    Comment #213717

    dbs,

    How can you be sure that the “minutemen” are treating people with respect and decency? Do they bother to ask for identification? If these people are suffering from thirst or hunger do they offer water or food?

    Who really knows what these vigilantes do? We are talking about PEOPLE, not a pack of wild dogs! Why haven’t we just legally secured our borders? Mexico is “flooded” with “illegal” Central American immigrants, should they set up a “minuteman” guard?

    Should we all just start shooting at everyone that we might think doesn’t belong among us?

    Posted by: KansasDem at March 25, 2007 8:03 PM
    Comment #213725

    kansasdem

    “If these people are suffering from thirst or hunger do they offer water or food?”

    from what i understand they do.

    ” Mexico is “flooded” with “illegal” Central American immigrants, should they set up a “minuteman” guard”

    they treat them much worse. they are extorted, and deprived of the decency that all humans deserve. they use thier military on the border.


    “Should we all just start shooting at everyone that we might think doesn’t belong among us?”

    absolutely not and that isn’t whats happening down there. these for the most part are decent people who are fed up about the situation.

    ” Why haven’t we just legally secured our borders?

    great question. wish i had the answer.

    gotta run have a good evening.



    Posted by: dbs at March 25, 2007 9:09 PM
    Comment #213729

    I agree with dbs.

    In response to Mexican authorities and activists constantly screaming “racism” over our border control efforts, the US should simply announce that we are going to begin treating all Mexican illegals exactly how Mexico treats illegals from Guatamala.

    Posted by: Loyal Opposition at March 25, 2007 10:00 PM
    Comment #213733

    Nazis, racists join Minuteman Project

    http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=13

    ‘Nuff said!

    Posted by: KansasDem at March 25, 2007 10:38 PM
    Comment #213735

    d.a.n.
    I was reiterating the 57 years - You clearly stated the time period.

    I have searched all through the report you reference, and all I can find relating to murder is that “* About 12 percent were for murder, robbery, assault, and sexually related crimes.”

    I can’t find 3.6 murders a day anywhere. In fact, according to the table on page 19 of the report, it shows the actual number of homicides as 13. If it were as you state, that would be 1314 homicides for one year alone. Over the 57 years it would be 78,898 homicides.

    The largest number of offences were immigration (68%).

    According to the current LAPD CompStat Report there were 88 homicides for the entire city for 2006, 112 for 2005. The LA archive report shows 515 homicides for 2004. The CompStat doesn’t give a citizenship breakdown. I believe the statistics you cite come from Rense.com http://www.rense.com/general75/inva.htm
    I have no idea where they got their statistics since I couldn’t find any source citing with that
    article.

    I believe that it is the right and responsibility of any nation to control the movement of people, goods, and commerce across its border. I believe that decreasing immigration starts by working to improve conditions in the home countries, and stopping the enticement of immigrants into the country by employers and industries. I believe in having sane and fair immigration policies (which we do not have).

    I also encourage people to read “Close to Slavery” http://www.splcenter.org/pdf/static/SPLCguestworker.pdf a report on the H-2 guest worker program. Then consider that this is what is happening to workers WITH papers.


    Posted by: Rowan Wolf at March 25, 2007 10:52 PM
    Comment #213779
    Rowan Wolf wrote: I can’t find 3.6 murders a day anywhere.

    It doesn’t say that directly, but it can easily be calculated.
    The 3.6 homicdes per day is a very conservative estimate and it is easily derived from the GAO REPORT 5646 and other estimates. Some other esitmates place it as high as 12 per day. However, I can’t easily prove that claim of 12 per day.

    First, remember that the study group of 55,322 is not all illegal aliens incarcerated.

    Second, the 5992 homicides for the study group were ONLY for three states (California, Texas, and Arizona) from 1947 to 2004 and it does not account for the much higher numbers crossing our borders since the amnesty of 1986.

    Therefore, the average homicide rate for the study group only is 105.12 homicides per year (i.e. 5992 homicides/57 years), which is 0.288 homicides per day (for the study group only). However, there are currently about 12 million illegal aliens in the U.S. The study group of 55,322 is only a small portion of the total of number of illegal aliens in prison. Several estimates place the total number incarcerated in the U.S. prisons that are illegal aliens at 33%. However, lets use the more conservative figure of 29% of all incarcerated that are illegal aliens. Also, those crimes are not merely for one tresspass of our borders, because that is only a misdemeanor.

    Now, there were 2.2 million (in year 2004) incarcerated in all U.S. prisons and 29% are illegal aliens, and the average stay in prison for each illegal alien is 21 months (so we will deal with one year only). That means there were 638,000 illegal aliens incarcerated in 2004, which is 11.53 times more than the size of the study group of 55,322 illegal aliens (which was ALSO over a 57 year period and only for three states (California, Texas, and Arizona). Still, conservatively, since there were 105.12 homicides per year for the study group (i.e. 0.288 homicides per day), multiply 0.288 homicides per day times 11.53 and you get 3.3 homicides per day.

    Another very conservative estimate to cooroborate that figure is based on total homicides natonwide.
    In the U.S. in year 2004, there were 16,528 homicides.
    12 million illegal aliens are 4% of the total 300 million U.S. population.
    4% of the 16,528 homicides is 661 homicides per year, which is 1.81 homicides per day.
    What ever the exact homicide rate is, those are crimes that should have NEVER occurred.

    At any rate, it should be pointed out that most illegal aliens are merely looking for work and/or welfare (32% of illegal aliens receive welfare).

    The goal should not be to persecute illegal aliens that are merely looking for work.

    The real villians in this are the politicians that are despicably pitting U.S. citizens and illegal aliens against each other, refusing to enforce the laws to stop those that employ illegal aliens, and refusing to secure the porous borders.

    KansasDem wrote: Securing our borders and ports should be job #1! That’s true no matter where a person stands on the immigration issue.
    Agreed. But Congress won’t be responsible until the voters are responsible too.
    KansasDem wrote: Nazis, racists join Minuteman Project
    There are a few bad apples in all organizations.

    I don’t think that’s a fair characterization of the Minuteman Project.
    Also, American citizens shouldn’t have to be doing this.
    The federal government should be securing the borders.
    Homeland security and minimum wage is a joke with such porous borders and no enforcement of the existing laws.

    This is another of many examples of how irresponsible incumbent politicians are pitting American citizens and illegal aliens against each other.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 26, 2007 1:33 PM
    Comment #213787

    Rowan, so, now (all of a sudden) you’re worried about illegals?! Or, excuse me, “undocumented workers”. If people would stop emotionalizing this and (actually) realize that the illegal situation is one of the biggest issues of our time. Secure the Border first and penalize the Coporations, then we can worry about dealing with the illegals we have here.

    Posted by: rahdigly at March 26, 2007 2:13 PM
    Comment #213796

    rahdigly,
    I don’t believe you have any idea what my interest, nor the length of it is, though in context of your statement I have to assume that is a slam.

    I would agree with you that this is one of the biggest issues of our times. However, I likely disagree with you on what the issue actually is, what is driving it, and what should be done about it.

    Posted by: Rowan Wolf at March 26, 2007 3:07 PM
    Comment #213815

    http://www.cis.org/index.cgi

    try this link. there’s quite a bit of different info

    Posted by: dbs at March 26, 2007 5:33 PM
    Comment #214019

    Try this link.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 27, 2007 7:41 PM
    Comment #214235

    d.a.n

    good link. lots of info to digest.

    Posted by: dbs at March 28, 2007 10:42 PM
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