Democrats & Liberals Archives

Bush is Tenacious

Do Republicans still think that Iraq is going well and that we just need to stay the course?

As recently as October 15, 2006 Jack wrote:Success in Iraq. As recently as October 9, 2006 I wrote:The Fog of War. Go back and read those two articles, then come back here and tell me which one is closer to the: Iraq Study Group Report. On September 7, 2006 I also wrote: Iran has won the war. It is time to sue for peace which is also partly in alignment with part of the Iraq Study Group Report.

It seems to me that before the elections anybody that said Iraq was a mess was roundly attacked by Republicans. What is proper etiquette? Is it now considered polite to criticize the Bush Regime's failed policies? Or will I still be called:

I Salute these brave tail waggers and say they are very trancperant.

OR:
Ray…YOUR AN IDIOT!!
Oh, I forgot..your an intelligent patriotic American.

I have come to respect Bush's tenacity. He continues to fight for a failed policy.

I also agree with the person above who called me an idiot. The longer Bush is President, the more IQ points that I / We lose. He has lowered the quality of political discourse so low that we have been conditioned to expect no more. Watching Bush give a press conference should be classified as a Class A Narcotic. For a good laugh and sad cry over the pathetic state of political discourse see: YouTube - Bush.


Posted by Ray Guest at December 16, 2006 1:30 PM
Comments
Comment #199544

Ray

The problem with tenacity is that it can be admirable and foolish at the same time. I to admire his tenacity. However at the same time I consider him a fool for being so.

It is obvious that his administration has been supplying us with half truths where much of the Iraq debaucle is concerned. In many cases they just have not supplied information at all. Not a truth or a lie. Just ignore the issue and hope it will go away or that nobody will notice. I can not remember when the last time I saw a press conference offer a clear and consice anserw to any question imposed upon them. Their accounting principles and number manipulations are laughable. The more they try to hide the worse they look. They are banking on the idea that the american public do not have the mettle to sustain an interest in any one area of concern. Unfortunately for them, times have changed and the citizens of this country are probably more aware and concerned than they have been in decades.

Class A narcotic is an understatement. Hell, a good snail race would be more thought provoking. And pathetic sums up thier state of political discourse nicely. However I might throw the word dismal in there as an added kicker.

Posted by: Ildem at December 16, 2006 6:44 PM
Comment #199545

Republican answer to most things is MORE. Iraq, MORE troops. International squabbles, MORE military. Debt - print MORE money. Debt - borrow MORE! Not enough qualified workers - MORE immigration! Failing policies - MORE salesmanship for them. Economy sluggish - MORE tax cuts. Trade imbalances - More Free Trade Agreements to export jobs and increase consumer wealth overseas.

More of everything except oversight, accountability, responsibility, and Democrat and Independent voters. Democrat and Independent voters are of course the pox upon America and cause of all ills.

In January, it will be time for Democrats to play the MORE game, which they played so well the last time they were in control of Congress. Will they fare better? There is reason to doubt.

Posted by: David R. Remer at December 16, 2006 7:10 PM
Comment #199562

I’ll respect Bush’s tenacity when HIS daughters are over there! Being tenacious is one thing. Being too stubborn or stupid to own up to a failed policy that is costing the lives of our soldiers and bankrupting the treasury is criminal.

Posted by: BillS at December 16, 2006 11:32 PM
Comment #199568

Tenacity is an admirable trait when preconceived beliefs prove right. But when those philosophies and beliefs and faith prove wrong, when they prove to be out of sync with reality, it is a recipe for disaster.

The Terry Shiavo debacle and the stem cell issue have proven the disastrous for the religious fundamentalist Bush supporters.

Perhaps the worst disaster of all is the right wing ideological/religious denial of Global Warming.

Iraq takes the cake. Once again, ideological preconceptions have been belied by reality.

Corporatist right-wing economics has brought us outsourcing of jobs, deficits and debts on a scale hard to comprehend, and an economic recovery which has left only corporations and the very wealthiest among us as beneficiaries.

Tenaciously staying the course on these issues has cost Republicans the House & the Senate. It has resulted in our responsibility for invading Iraq based on pretexts and misinformation, on wrong preconceptions. 600,000 Iraqis have died in the subsequent violence, along with 25,000 American casualties. Incredibly, it looks like it will get even worse.

Warrantless wiretapping of Americans continues to this day. How tenacious.

Bush supporters must take responsibility for supporting this disastrous course.

Worst. President. Ever.

Posted by: phx8 at December 17, 2006 12:44 AM
Comment #199569

To the first three commentators

I guess from your ivory towers it is easy to criticize Pres. Bush. I find it difficult to have an honest dialogue with people who live in a fantasy world. I have lived in America all my life, I assume you have also. I have access to all the information that you have. I assume I have at least a modicum of common sense and would agree that you do. But somewhere along the way, you changed the conditions of the argument. I understand this: When Bush said “Stay the course” I believed him to say “Win the war on terror.” I didn’t believe that he was talking strategies or tactics about how to achieve it. So when you ridicule or belittle the term “Stay the course”, to me, that sounds a lot like saying “Lose the war on terror” I can understand you being against some tactics, but I cannot understand the latter. You say Pres. Bush lied about WMD to get us into Iraq. I heard several reasons for our resumption of hostilities. These included several broken U.N. resolutions. WMD’s were just one of many reasons. Don’t think I am so stupid as to forget the rest because you harp on one. Stop your Sunday morning quarterbacking, drop your hate, and support solutions to the big problem. There are people in the world that hate us, they hate our lives, they hate our freedoms. They are not rational in any sense that we could agree on. They are the problem, not President Bush.

Posted by: wkw at December 17, 2006 12:57 AM
Comment #199573

wkw, they are one of a host of problems we face as a nation, and Bush has demonstrated time and again that he is not able to address those problems, only exacerbate them.

Posted by: David R. Remer at December 17, 2006 2:44 AM
Comment #199575

wkw…This is the reason left and right see things so different. You say we changed the argument I say you don’t understand the argument. You say we criticze from ivory towers I say it’s our duty as americans to criticze our elected officals when the make bad decisions that get us in a war of choice. Iraq is Not the war own terror it is part of the problem that will bring more terror to us. And the reason they hate us because of the cowboy policys of this president and the people that support those policys.

Posted by: Jeff at December 17, 2006 7:51 AM
Comment #199578

wkw,

“But somewhere along the way, you changed the conditions of the argument. I understand this: When Bush said “Stay the course” I believed him to say “Win the war on terror.” I didn’t believe that he was talking strategies or tactics about how to achieve it.”

When Bush said “stay the course”, we all assumed there was a course to “stay”.

It has been painfully obvious that there wasn’t.

Much has been made about how mistakes are made in wars.
It is he who recovers rapidly, and rectifies those mistakes the quickest, that wins the war.

Tenacity becomes stupidity, when the same mistakes are made, over and over, and not corrected.

“I guess from your ivory towers it is easy to criticize Pres. Bush.”

I would guess that those of us in the “cheap seats”, find it easy to criticize, because it is obvious the advice of those that should know better isn’t being followed.

Posted by: Rocky at December 17, 2006 8:55 AM
Comment #199579

wkw

I believe it is yourself and people who hold the same views who are living in a fantasy world. You refuse to recognize what is right in front of you for what it is. The realities are there everywhere in the media hour after hour day after day for all to see. We can all draw our own conclusions as to the severity of those realities, but the facts are that the conflict in Iraq is not going well at all. It has evolved into whichever mission currently best serves the needs of the administration at the moment. This president with the help of his staff has made a multitude of irresponsible, and some irrecoverable, mistakes during his term. Our very presence in Iraq is what fuels the hatred directed at us in that region. Our president stood in front of the cameras and announced that it was paramount that we invade Iraq and topple Suddam Hussein because his regime was harboring WMD and the threat from the same was as good as imminent. It has been reported that this administration was preparing for this invasion long before the so called WMD threat. It does not require a lot of creativity to put two and two together.

I do not hate George Bush. I also do not admire or respect him. I believe he has been the most incompetent, partisan president in my lifetime. I also believe that in time if the matters are pursued that he and others in his immeadiate staff may be accused of criminal activity with regards to the conflict in Iraq. I do believe he should be held accountable for any such misgivings. The latter is not said out of hatred, envy, jealousy, party affiliation or hopes of vindication. I simply feel that he is not above the law and should be treated as such.

The last I heard was that almost seventy five percent of this nation has finally come to grips with the ugly realities of this administration. I do not understand why it is so hard for the rest to see the light.

Posted by: Ildem at December 17, 2006 9:22 AM
Comment #199590

Wkw,
You write: “There are people in the world that hate us, they hate our lives, they hate our freedoms.”

How many?

Posted by: phx8 at December 17, 2006 12:38 PM
Comment #199631

“Watching Bush give a press conference should be classified as a Class A Narcotic.”

Ray,

It’s not just Bush or even the Republican party.

Harry Reid say’s, “sure you can deploy more troops”!

I didn’t hear him supporting Rangel’s call for the draft!

Lieberman’s a DINO. That’s one vote to the right.

Reid’s obviously a dumbass, that makes two.

Ben Nelson from Nebraska makes three!

Hell, with these three dummies we could easily see a repeal of the 22nd amendment and be staring at another four years of GWB in control.

Yikes!!!!!!!

Posted by: KansasDem at December 18, 2006 12:37 AM
Comment #199648

The person you must fear is one who has nothing to lose. Dubya has nothing to lose. He has already achieved the “worst president” title… so,

How many more America soldiers will have to die while Dubya diddles and dallies and flails about like the delusional idiot even his own party members now recognize?

The answer: Too many.

Posted by: Dr. Poshek at December 18, 2006 9:29 AM
Comment #199650

Let’s assume for a minute that there is a large body of people that hate the West, is hell-bent on world domination, and believes that violence is the best way to accomplish their goals. And let’s assume that bringing peace to the Middle East and changing the perspectives of the people there is the best way to counteract this movement.

How long would it take to bring this about? 10 years? 20 years? A generation? And how much would it cost, in terms of dollars and lives? Does anybody really know? Isn’t this new territory here? So when you say that the war in Iraq isn’t going well, isn’t it all in your perspective? Isn’t that really just your opinion?

My biggest beef with many of the posts on this site is that people state an opinion and declare it as fact. But it is NOT a fact that the war in Iraq is not going well. “Well” is a subjective term. Yes, there is violence and bloodshed, and yes, we see it on the news everyday. And sure, some mistakes have been made. But that is not the big picture. What war has been waged perfectly, or not had setbacks? Isn’t sacrificing lives sometimes necessary?

The scenario in my first paragraph is a real possibility, but you don’t want to acknowledge it. You just want to blame Bush for everything, conveniently forgetting that radical Islam was committing terrorist acts before the Iraq war, that regime change in Iraq was policy even before Bush took office, many other nations believed that Saddam had WMD, and that even some democrats authorized the invasion of Iraq and believed that Saddam was an imminent threat.

My point is that I constantly see facts being replaced by opinions on this site. If liberals really are the more intelligent sect, and more open minded, then please let’s discuss real issues and not have this continual mud-slinging.

Posted by: nchoosier at December 18, 2006 10:32 AM
Comment #199661

people in the world that hate us, they hate our lives, they hate our freedoms

Or hate the arrogance and greed of those who control our government, or maybe they just hate the Bushes and bushite neocons. If you slow down a Bush speech just a little bit, like Craig Ferguson, you will realize that he does not have all his faculties. Just search Bush Drunk on youtube. He is not even a good drunk, like Boris Yeltzin, the international hero who ended the cold war.

Posted by: ohrealy at December 18, 2006 12:16 PM
Comment #199664

Nchoosier,
If you question any of my statements, feel free to ask, & I would be happy to provide links.

As for mud slinging- an administration cannot start a war on pretexts & misinformation, assume legal & moral responsibility for an occupation which as resulted in 600,000 dead Iraqis & 25,000 American casualties, and still be immune from mud slinging. To put it subjectively, the Bush administration dragged America into the mud, and not vice versa.

Finally, “Radical Islam” is not a large, monolithic movement. If you will recall, in only one instance have we ever been attacked on American soil, and that was the Al Qaida of Osama bin Laden.

With the exception of Al Qaida- which has not had a functional organization or ability to threaten us in quite some time- the only attacks against Americans have come when we,/em> have invaded their countries.

It has all been about oil, and that is what needs to change.

Posted by: phx8 at December 18, 2006 12:41 PM
Comment #199672

Phx8 - I don’t see your point. A lot the things you say are your opinions, and are not proven by facts. You haven’t said anything to change this.

From your posts above:

Terry Schiavo - you call it a debacle, I call it erring on the side of life. This one really gets me, because I thought liberals were supposed to be for those who couldn’t help themselves.

Stem Cells - I don’t know what you call it, but I call it stopping before we head down a slippery slope. Again, you can’t support your side with facts.

Outsourcing - you blame the Republicans, I say you can’t stop it. If you try, you either bring our economy to a screeching halt or start seeing mass outsourcing of entire companies.

Economic recovery - you say only the wealthy and corporations have benefited, but my middle class family, far from wealthy, has benefited tremendously.

Radical Islam - the West, which I was referring to in my post, has been attacked by a lot more than just Al Qaida.

Worst president ever - your opinion.

You have every right to be critical, but you’re not being constructive.

Posted by: nchoosier at December 18, 2006 1:54 PM
Comment #199683

Tenacious? Or left with no other choices that would save his sorry useless political butt?
Political Capital? Can you say “zero”?

Can I ask more that five questions in a row? Yup, but not this time…

nc:
Schiavo: She was brain dead, her CTs showed only 1/3 of her brain not yet resorbed. No “error” on Frist et. al., just politiking to the base
Stem cells: No slippery slope, just slippery logic, again in support of a political base
Outsourcing: “Sreaming halt”? What does taht tell you about the strength and stability of our economy if it is driven by $1 Trillion of trade deficit every year (at surrent rates) and the export of jobs?
Recovery: Congratulations. Now include the reductions in your benefits and what’s left? Most middle class people are screwed, they just don’t really know yet, how, or wny.
Islam: Yeah, like McVeigh?
Worst president: My opinion as well…

Posted by: Dave1-20-2009 at December 18, 2006 3:09 PM
Comment #199684

nchoosier,

You rail against others for citing their opinion, yet don’t supply links to your own “facts”.

Typical.

Posted by: Rocky at December 18, 2006 3:42 PM
Comment #199685

nchoosier and wkw,

Did Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rummy push WMD for the reason we invaded?

Fact: Yes

Did many Americans believe this war would become a mess?

Fact: Yes

Is the President, Cheney, Rummy and Rice now saying the war is going badly?

Fact: Yes

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at December 18, 2006 3:51 PM
Comment #199690

nchoosier

What are you a deaf dumb and blind shut in? Just do a simple google search with the words iraq war. You will come up with hundreds if not thousands of links on the matter. You will find little to support any kind of a positive spin on the matter.

You can not honestly deny what Bush told the world for our reasons leading to invasion. He very clearly and explicitly displayed in the open, to the world, for everyone to hear, while ignoring advise against invading from much of the rest of the world. But then maybe you were not listening.

Bush, his generals, the Baker commission, and now Gates have all admitted in person to the world that this conflict is not going well. I have not seen anything on Cheneys current outlook. But then who really cares what he thinks. These admissions have been in every form of media available to us in todays world.

The debate over opinion or fact has been over for a few weeks now at least where Bush and his administration is concerned. For most of the rest of us it has been over for a long time.

Posted by: ILdem at December 18, 2006 4:52 PM
Comment #199696

“Worst. President. Ever.”

Certainly in my lifetime. Unfortunately, I missed Nixon. And the comparisons to people like Andrew Johnson are basically impossible. And I’m sure if Teddy Roosevelt had presided over a great depression, he’d live in infamy. But instead, he successfully weilded a big stick, and is remembered via soft and cuddly stuffed bears. Wierd how things work.

Here’s my best take on it: He was a simplistic and overly manipulative president who took his own image more seriously than he took the important issues of the day. Yet, ironically, the time he was living in was one which valued information, and despite his best efforts at moral justification and the institutional lack of transparency of his administration, he is generally known as dirty AND conniving at the same time. In other words, he was a PR president whose eventual lack of good PR doomed his fate. In the end, he failed on every front in his PR war except of course to his ever loyal base. But there is no surprise there.

History will remember his unsuccessful war in Iraq and his unsuccessful domestic agenda. All in all, it has been a shameful 6 years for the oval office. Clinton is not remembered as the fornicating president outside domestic republican circles. He is instead attached to a spirit of empowerment that came with globalization and the resurgence of the US economy. He was highly respected when he spoke…still is. His policies were debatable. In the end, other presidents have demanded respect, and been able to get it. This president seems to have muffled and miffed so many for so long, there is no holding back the flood. He certainly demands zero respect outside of 32% of Americans. NOT good for a legacy.

Posted by: Kevin23 at December 18, 2006 5:30 PM
Comment #199697

Rocky, I never said I was stating facts. I’m giving you my opinions, or in some cases the other side of the story to play devil’s advocate, trying to help you see that there are often 2 sides to a story.

Sure everybody is saying the war in Iraq is going badly - you would be labeled an idiot if you didn’t. And maybe it is going badly. But none of you have answered my question: how do we know that what’s going on in Iraq isn’t just part of the process, that a generation from now we will all be safer because we brought democracy to the Middle East? Shouldn’t we admit that that’s at least a possibility? Or aren’t we open-minded?

Posted by: nchoosier at December 18, 2006 5:41 PM
Comment #199701

nchoosier, Britain’s channel 4 TV station aired a documentary last night. It was a report on the infiltration of the police in Iraq by the partisan militias and the sectarian slaughter they are carrying out. Not alone are they savagely kidnapping, torturing and killing sunnis indiscriminately, they are killing professionals like doctors, surgeons, educators etc. These are madhi army who are given the security detail for hospitals. The police won’t intervene. People who show up at hospital for treatment or to visit relatives, are murdered en mass.

A senior British police officer who was seconded to Iraq to train up the new forces, saw whole divisions of sectarian militias being recruited as single units. He protested to senior US military officers and got nowhere. He protested to Rumsfeld when he met him. Nothing changed. The Iraqi interior minister is deeply tied to Iran, and presided over deaths squads among his own interior ministry security people. In his own office buliding, where they were holding, torturing and killing detainees. All under the noses of the US. A US army sniper told of watching from a rooftop position where he was stationed, and seeing police entering their compound in vehicles, taking detainees from them, and savagely beating them in the grounds. He called on fellow US soldiers who intervened to stop it. But while still there, they were ordered to back off and not interfere. This was in Baghdad, what is supposed to be the most secure part of Iraq, the green zone. The fact is, the Bush administration knows that these things are happening, and is turning a blind eye. The Iranians are taking over under their noses, and they are pretending that things are going to be ok, as long as you stay the course.

This reminds me of some of the most satirical movies i’ve ever seen about Vietnam, displaying a complete cynicism as regards what is actually happening, as long as they can pretend things are not as bad as some portray them. From a US perspective, there is nothing positive happening in Iraq. You do not control it, and have little prospect of controlling it in the forseeable future. But Bush will not pull out and be seen for what he is, if fact what the rest of the world sees him as, a failure.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at December 18, 2006 6:23 PM
Comment #199702

nchoosier,
Constructive comments:
1) Make a living will. Make sure no one “errs,” and brings in the full force of the federal government in an attempt to intervene, & impose their views into the most intimate & awful of your personal family moments.

2) Stem cell research needs support. E-mail or contact your congressman.

3) Corporations which outsource should not receive tax breaks. In addition, companies which outsource need to be forced outside the country, especially their CEOs. Avoiding US labor laws, payment of competitive wages, & environmental regulations are the choices of some corporations. The consequence is that they should not be entitled to the use of US labor, nor access to US markets, nor citizenship & homes in this country. It is their choice. We just have to make sure the choice has consequences.
Oh! And most importantly, repeal the 14th amendment misinterpretation of corporatate entities as “persons.” That will solve a lot of problems right there.

Economic recovery can be achieved by raising the minimum wage, balancing the federal budget by eliminating earmarks & raising taxes back to 2000 levels, cut defense spending by a substantial percentage, and withdrawing from Iraq. That is just for starters.


Posted by: phx8 at December 18, 2006 6:27 PM
Comment #199714

“how do we know that what’s going on in Iraq isn’t just part of the process, that a generation from now we will all be safer because we brought democracy to the Middle East? Shouldn’t we admit that that’s at least a possibility? Or aren’t we open-minded?”

How do we know that declaring war on China right now would assure the US of economic superiority for the next 1000 years, that the next generation will abhor the notion of unprovoked attack, yet will be deeply appreciative of their good fortune that would have been otherwise sigificantly diminished? Its a distinct possibility. Should we be open minded about this too?

The logic is not good. We should act on good, prudent and conclusive information, and not based upon there being some chance of “hitting the big one”.

Posted by: Kevin23 at December 18, 2006 7:12 PM
Comment #199726

nchoosier,

“how do we know that what’s going on in Iraq isn’t just part of the process, that a generation from now we will all be safer because we brought democracy to the Middle East? Shouldn’t we admit that that’s at least a possibility? Or aren’t we open-minded?

I grew up in the fifties and sixties, in other words, I wasn’t born yesterday.
I was a young adult during Vietnam, I know when a war is going badly.
This action in Iraq was successful up until we took Baghdad, since then it has been a cluster f**k.
We attempted to overthrow a repressive regime without thinking about the consequences of letting a long oppressed populace free with no security what so ever.
It has been chaos pretty much ever since then.

Without security you cannot rebuild the infrastructure that Saddam let fall to ruins, not to mention the parts we blew to hell.
Without security you cannot form a government. I truly admire those that braved the lack of security to acquire their purple thumbs, but purple thumbs do not make Iraq a Democracy.
Without security we cannot expect to have Saddam tried and convicted. People involved with that trial are dropping like flies.

The overthrow of Saddam has been on the agenda in this country since the PNAC sent a letter to Clinton.
He wasn’t their guy, George Bush is. As a point of fact he is surrounded by PNAC members.

All it took was the Sept, 11th match to light the fuse, and off we went.

America has spent what, a trillion dollars?
What exactly do the American people have to show for that expenditure, besides the debt our country now owes to China?

Terry Schiavo?
Please.
The Republicans put a brain dead woman on TV for votes. It doesn’t get any lower than that.

Stem cells?
Why wouldn’t we attempt to develop a technology, from something that would probably be destroyed anyway, that may, in the long run, save thousands, maybe even millions of lives?

BTW, I hope someone else sees the irony between those last two subjects.

Oh, and this is a blog where we try to back up our opinions with facts, and you won’t get that on FOX.

Posted by: Rocky at December 18, 2006 9:10 PM
Comment #199727

It looks to me that alot of the continueing support Bush gets for the war,dispite obvious failure,stems from the same reason many supported the war in the first place. We were attacked by Arabs and many people just wanted to kill some Arabs. Never mind the Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Lets just kill a bunch of sand niggers.Iraq is as good a place to start as any.Yes that is a racist position. The US is famous for such things.

Posted by: BillS at December 18, 2006 9:12 PM
Comment #199801

BillS,

Historically, a majority of our recent military actions have been against people of color. I think it’s easier for white Americans to justify blood shed when it is against people of color. I still see financial gain as the major motivating factor for war and not the color of one’s skin. The wealthy profit and the poor and middle class regardless of color do the bulk of the fighting and belt tightening.
There is a reason fear has been used to justify the war in Iraq. It’s half of what defines a bigot
fear + ignorance = prejudice

Military Ind. Complex + war = windfall

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at December 19, 2006 2:28 PM
Comment #200088

saying,

“Rocky the American people put a bunch of brain dead Senators and Congress Reps.in office this past November.”

So…..

What does that say about the last 6 years, hmmm?

Posted by: Rocky at December 21, 2006 3:05 PM
Comment #200214

you know saying, my old man used to say that we get the representatives we deserve. If what you say is true, what does that say about the electorate?

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at December 22, 2006 5:26 PM
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