Democrats & Liberals Archives

Fire Gonzales, Jail Cheney, Impeach Bush!

Nay, do it not ye Dems of the new majorities!

However little doubt you may have that those criminal miscreants deserve such fates, the agenda of the 110th Congress must not and will not be consumed with recriminations, but rather with doing the necessary business of this nation which has been so woefully neglected over the last six years.

At this time, expedience must trump justice. The not-so-perilous Nancy Pelosi realizes it well, and in spite of the hue and cry from the right over her misperceived extremism, all indications are she gets it, and will successfully negotiate the balance between overplaying the Democrats' hand and governing too timidly.

Investigations will occur, and rightly so! But the emphasis will be (or should be) on uncovering corruption that has remained hidden, not on targeted witch hunts of particular individuals.

Front and center instead will be popular measures like raising the minimum wage, retracting the ban on negotiating prices with big pharmaceuticals, breaking the link between lobbyists and legislation, and finally enacting all the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission. "Drain the GOP swamp", Ms Pelosi, America won't find it so controversial.

As for the title actions of this post? Well, my earlier version of this article, Fire Rumsfeld, Jail Cheney, Impeach Bush! was rendered obsolete when Bush announced that Rumsfeld had already done as I predicted. Alberto Gonzales' culpability for designing a policy which brought us shame was (or should have been) already fully understood when Bush brazenly nominated him as Attorney General at the beginning of 2005, so I don't see what new investigations will reveal that would compel his firing. Bringing our Vice President to justice for his lies and reckless policies may never happen. He will be shamed by history, however, when all is said and done, as will his boss who delegated his responsibilities in foreign policy to a naive band of fools whose hubris led to a destabilization of the Middle East we will have to live with for years to come. I'm afraid the Dems don't have the magic glue for fixing that pot, much less the authority to do much if they did.

Still I will savor this moment, knowing that the repudiation of the power corrupt Republican leadership was shared by liberals, moderates, and conservatives alike. This is still, on average, a conservative nation, but we learned last night that shutting out voices of reason from the other side can only last so long. I don't think Democrats will make the same mistake, at least not now. And perhaps conservatives will learn that the principled cravings of progressive Democrats are not as out of touch with mainstream American values as they have been led to believe.

Posted by Walker Willingham at November 8, 2006 9:36 PM
Comments
Comment #194079

I completely agree. Democrats have always been at their best when expressing the voice of reason, rather than rage. Anger and fear are tools best used by conservatives and radicals, whereas the mainstream of the democratic party has generally been more moderate than the republicans would have you believe. Hate inspired revenge is not the venue of resonable men, even when it might be justified. The time to impeach Bush, if ever, is when one is reasonably sure of succeeding. Otherwise, it’s just a waste of valuable time and money.

Posted by: Extravagent Gryphon at November 8, 2006 4:53 PM
Comment #194081

Exactly. If we were anything like Bush we would first announce that we have a huge amount of political capital and a mandate from the people to put Bush on the chopping block, and then re-draw all the districts so Republicans can never win again. Republicans always use the “oh you’d do it too excuse.” I don’t see that (yet). I see Democrats acting like adults and talking about working with Republicans.

Posted by: Max at November 8, 2006 5:11 PM
Comment #194082

Walker,
Please add illegal immigration brought to your list of issues needing immediate attention.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 8, 2006 5:14 PM
Comment #194084

it is not for revenge that these people must face justice. it is for the sake of justice itself.

we are a nation of laws, and when those laws are broken, the penalties must be enforced - or the laws themselves lack meaning and purpose.

these criminals are responsible for the deaths of thousands. they illegally spied on american citizens. they have tortured people for christ’s sake. they have outright lied to the american people many, many times. they have gutted our constitution… their crimes are innumerable.

if we do not hold these, our most trusted representatives, to at least the same standard we hold ourselves, then there is absolutely no reason for them (or anyone else in their position) to follow and enforce the letter of the law in the future.

the democrats should not be seeking justice (or failing to do so) in order to satisfy their own petty partisan agenda, but to restore faith in our country, to uphold the law, and to satisfy the demands of justice for all peoples, the world over.

Posted by: Diogenes at November 8, 2006 5:17 PM
Comment #194086

Diogenes,

If there are laws that have incontravertably HAVE been broken by Bush, and it becomes a well known fact, I’m actually fairly certain that the repubs will join us in impeaching him.

The way it stands: Although Bush has done much that is unquestionably immoral, as far as the law is concerned, he hasn’t stepped through that grey area where one could say that he has unquestionably broken any. A court could go either way, in other words.

The decisive question is whether such action would succeed. If an impeachment can succeed, due to unquestionable wrongdoing, I’m all for it. There may come a time after extensive investigation where that may be possible, but that time is not now. It would take more than a Democrat only vote to impeach Bush.

Posted by: Extravagent Gryphon at November 8, 2006 5:40 PM
Comment #194088

Let’s see:

The Democrats have 2 years before the next election. This time it will be Presidential as well. wiht Congress tkaing time off for The Holidays, Summer Break, Spring Break, etc. They new Congress will need to work efficiently and fast to push it’s agenda through.

If Congress gets bogged down on investigations then the agenda wont get done before the next election and the pendulum could swing the other way.

If the Democrats play their cards right with this opportunity, they could pave the way for a Democratic President.

The Dems won in many races by very slim margins (Montana, Virginia, etc). Don’t assume you have a mandate like the Republicans did and blow the opportunity for real change.

Minimum Wage
Comprehensive Energy Reform
Fix Social Security

Use this election wisely and the Dems could solidify their position for the next election. Then there could be a Dem House, Senate, and Presidency.

Example: Putting Alcee Hastings (a former impeached Judge) in as head of a committee could damage the goodwill the Dems have just garnered.

Pick and choose your battles carefully or the voters will do the same to the Dems as they just did to the Repubs.

Posted by: RedStapler at November 8, 2006 5:49 PM
Comment #194092

Being that there is only 2 years left in this administration, I think some investigations that have been stalled should move forward, on the back burner.

The two things I want the Dems to deal with immediately are campaign reform and ethics oversite of congress and the administration (to me these are closely linked)and the war in Iraq. It’s time to tell the Shia it’s time to share power, sue for peace with the Sunni’s or we get out. If they want to devolve into Lebanon or Palestine, we should simply redeploy elsewhere, lick our wounds and go after Al qaeda, independantly. Massive aid to Pakistan, tied to reform would be a good place to start.

Posted by: gergle at November 8, 2006 5:57 PM
Comment #194093

I agree with Diogenes:
“it is not for revenge that these people must face justice. it is for the sake of justice itself.”

Yes. We can’t simply ignore what they’ve done. I’d like to see some investigations. Impeachment if warranted. And I’m willing to bet there is plenty to impeach him on, it’s just that with the GOP drunk on their former power, they were shuting us out and wouldn’t answer a single one of our many important questions.
America needs some answers, for the sake of justice itself.

Posted by: Adrienne at November 8, 2006 6:01 PM
Comment #194094

Not out of the woods yet

After Rumsfeld resignation Bush appoints
Robert Gates. Before joining the CIA full-time as an intelligence analyst, he spent two years in the Air Force. During one posting, at Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri, he delivered intelligence briefings to ICBM missile crews.

go to video.google.com search “911”

Posted by: Bob at November 8, 2006 6:02 PM
Comment #194095

we have had these arguments on watchblog many times before. obviously, investigations are the first step. this is my point - these investigations must proceed immediately. they should not take a back seat to pursuing the democratic agenda, but the reverse.

“as far as the law is concerned, he hasn’t stepped through that grey area where one could say that he has unquestionably broken any. “

neither has a man standing with a smoking gun over a dead body. that is what the trial is for.

these people have clearly broken some (likely a great many) laws. hiding behind the mythical unlimited powers of a president in times of war or emergency is no excuse for shortcutting fiza. and torture is illegal, both here and internationally. the evidence for many of these criminal activities is right in front of us.

letting these criminals off in the name of bipartisanship is what i fear. that is not in america’s best interest. that merely makes the democrats coconspirators. the main motivation for doing so would be to pursue policies which this administration opposes; i.e. political blackmail.

it is certainly not my wish to skip the trial and proceed straight to the punishment (and impeachment is not the correct punishment for such heinous crimes). that is not justice. but let’s begin the investigations immediately so that the trial may begin as soon as is reasonably possible.

Posted by: Diogenes at November 8, 2006 6:03 PM
Comment #194099

One very important fact to think about in regards to the 06 elections:

Unfortuntately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view), the 08 presidential campaigns will be getting seriously under way in a matter of months now, about the time the new Congress gets sworn in, and much of the behavior of both parties will be determined by that.

For this reason, I see zero chance of any major legislative intitiatives during the less than two years before the swearing of the new Congress and the November 08 elections, and a 100% chance of all kinds of empty posturing, triangulating, and meaningless symbolic actions.

Social Security reform? Forget it. The party that tries it will lose the Senior vote.

Real immigration reform? Forget it. The party that tries it will lose the Hispanic vote. Say hello to stalemate.

Posted by: Neo-Con Pilsner at November 8, 2006 6:15 PM
Comment #194101

Walker

You are a smart guy, as I know from talking to you on many occasions.

You will face people like Adrienne and Diogenes, who actually believe most of what they say although they say things that are unbelievable.

Adrienne & Diogense

To the radical Dems, you might want to do the math. You now hold the same sort of advantage in the House that the Republicans held a few days ago. You think you represent “the people” because of that, yet when Republicans had what you have and you had what they had, your opinion was different.

Logical consistency indicates that the Republicans represented the people last week and you represent them next week. It shows how fluid this representing the people thing can be in a democracy.

Re power in general - Adrienne, I am sure you recongize the reference.

“My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”

Posted by: Jack at November 8, 2006 6:19 PM
Comment #194102

“You will face people like Adrienne and Diogenes, who actually believe most of what they say although they say things that are unbelievable.”

What is unbelievable is a Unitary Executive making up laws for himself. Destroying our Constitution. Starting a war based on lies. American’s Torturing People. Spying on our citizens.
What is even more unbelievable is the idea that nothing whatsoever should be done about the fact that all this has happened to our country under the Bush Regime.

Posted by: Adrienne at November 8, 2006 6:26 PM
Comment #194104

Diogenes, we just had an election whose main storyline was that of moderate to conservative Democrats unseating moderate to liberal Republicans, and now you’re demanding that the Democrats deliver to the far left. I predicted that many would take this line, and it will be interesting to see just how many.

Believe me. There’s nothing the Republicans would LOVE to see more than the Democrats using their new-found majorities for nothing more than to drag the country through a round of divisive recriminations that are doomed to fail: to basically put the Republicans on trial for too zealously (in the far left’s view) prosecuting a war on terror.

If that happens, the Republicans’ 06 defeat will come to be seen as the impetus for the Democratic party committing suicide. I suspect, though, that even Nancy Pelosi is too clever to go down that road.

Posted by: Neo-Con Pilsner at November 8, 2006 6:30 PM
Comment #194106


jack

as you well know, i am no democrat. why you persist in referring to me as one, i can’t quite ascertain. insult? i’d rather be called a conservative democrat than a neocon bush crony.

“You now hold the same sort of advantage in the House that the Republicans held a few days ago. You think you represent “the people” because of that, yet when Republicans had what you have and you had what they had, your opinion was different. “

so, as none of this pertains to me, i shant waste my breath responding to it.

to the radical right. your days are numbered.

“Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”

i have. and i do.

Posted by: Diogenes at November 8, 2006 6:35 PM
Comment #194108

I simply have one more take on this, and I’ll stop, and it’s actually a question.

Should the Democrats spend their time looking to the future, or hashing out the crimes of the past, likely to no avail?

Last I knew, it was a PROGRESSIVE party.

Posted by: Extravagent Gryphon at November 8, 2006 6:36 PM
Comment #194112

neocon,

you must be confusing me for someone who cares.
my agenda is for justice to be served.

“Believe me.” (not likely) “There’s nothing the Republicans would LOVE to see more than the Democrats using their new-found majorities for nothing more than to drag the country through a round of divisive recriminations that are doomed to fail: to basically put the Republicans on trial for too zealously (in the far left’s view) prosecuting a war on terror.”

in the far left’s view, in the moderate’s view, in the true right’s view… not for too zealously prosecuting a war on terror, but for too gleefully prosecuting a war on freedom, americans, and the american way.

extravagant,

begin securing the future by addressing the iniquities of the past. you can’t build anything on a frail and faulty foundation.

Posted by: Diogenes at November 8, 2006 6:45 PM
Comment #194116

I agree with the notion that its not of much use to do a bunch of impeachments and whatnot, but I would recommend one thing: If Bush tries to use one of those signing statements to evade a law, we stomp it flat, stake it out in the sunshine for everybody to see.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at November 8, 2006 6:49 PM
Comment #194117

Well, fine, Diogenes. Since I’ve obviously “confused you for someone who cares,” let me just say that your warped sense of “justice” is a pipe dream that is not shared by anybody who DOES care.

Posted by: Neo-Con Pilsner at November 8, 2006 6:51 PM
Comment #194120

Diogenes-
I think Bush has had the worst possible punishment inflicted on him. Better a lame duck who lost everything for his party, than a martyr who gave everything for it.

We should investigate where we need to investigate, expose what we need to expose, but not to the point that we’re halting all government business on its account. Americans need a functioning government.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at November 8, 2006 6:54 PM
Comment #194121

neocon

break the law, pay the price. i think most the rest of the world (excluding yourself, apparently) can agree on that.

Posted by: Diogenes at November 8, 2006 6:55 PM
Comment #194123

stephen,

agreed. it was not my intention to suggest that investigations should be the sole purpose of this congress, just an extremely important one. ensuring that the government functions must come first.

Posted by: Diogenes at November 8, 2006 7:00 PM
Comment #194124

“Should the Democrats spend their time looking to the future, or hashing out the crimes of the past, likely to no avail?”

We should do both. What Bushco has done is no mere blow job by an intern. Our troops have died, and are still dying. They have attacked everything America is supposed to stand for. They have besmirched our good name, and lowered our standing in the world. No one ever learns a lesson by ignoring their worst mistakes.

“Last I knew, it was a PROGRESSIVE party.”

Oh, it is. But don’t worry, we just won so many seats, surely we can multi-task. ;^)

Posted by: Adrienne at November 8, 2006 7:00 PM
Comment #194126

Yo Bob,

“After Rumsfeld resignation Bush appoints
Robert Gates. Before joining the CIA full-time as an intelligence analyst, he spent two years in the Air Force.”

Google Iran-Contra.

Posted by: Rocky at November 8, 2006 7:08 PM
Comment #194140

jack wrote:

You will face people like Adrienne and Diogenes, who actually believe most of what they say although they say things that are unbelievable.

Actually I don’t find them unbelievable in the least. Adrienne and Diogenes are simply taking principled stands based on their earnest assessment of the wrongdoings of this administration. It pains me to advocate the more pragmatic approach, because diogenes argument that
we are a nation of laws, and when those laws are broken, the penalties must be enforced - or the laws themselves lack meaning and purpose.
holds considerable sway for me. But we operate within a context of political reality, and if it is the Democratic Party operatives who lead the charge for recriminations, then the polarization of the current era which has so upset so many Americans will be notched up even further and the common good demands that that not happen. The Democrats need to be all about the common good.

Start the investigations and let the chips fall where they may. If and when moderate Republican leaders call for impeachment, then it will be time to impeach. I still believe this administration is far worse than Nixon’s ever was, and even though I was openly liberal in Nixon’s day I disagreed with those who condemned Ford for the pardon. Healing sometimes requires swallowing one’s outrage. Not always, it depends on the timing. Now is the time Democrats have an opportunity. I stand by my assessment, but honor those who disagree - they have a strong argument.

Posted by: Walker Willingham at November 8, 2006 7:50 PM
Comment #194145

Walker, I think that if we allow the Republicans to be the ones to call for impeachment, we only strengthen them, and again allow them to build themselves up as the “patriotic morality party”.
We have swallowed our outrage long enough haven’t we? They who have been calling us traitors and terrorist sympathizers have systematically been destroying our Constitution, and have turned the presidency into little more than a dictatorship. Let America finally understand that is Democrats who know what kind of government this country was founded upon, and how badly the GOP has deviated from the rule of law as well as the true spirit of this nation.
Just my opinion.

Posted by: Adrienne at November 8, 2006 8:16 PM
Comment #194148

i would be very happy for the call to be made by republicans. this would redeem them a great deal in my eyes…

…but then, that would be playing politics with the situation… which is exactly what i fear might happen.

perform the investigations. if laws have been broken (and they have), then prosecute to the full extent of the law. do not wait for the republicans - don’t wait for the democrats either. indeed, the process should be conducted by independents - so as to forestall the inevitable claims of political maneuvering.

no one is above the law. if this congress is decent enough to share their findings, i’ll be shouting it from the rooftops, myself.

investigate. impeach. imprison.

Posted by: Diogenes at November 8, 2006 8:36 PM
Comment #194150

Adrienne:

They who have been calling us traitors and terrorist sympathizers have systematically been destroying our Constitution, and have turned the presidency into little more than a dictatorship.
Perfectly legitimate issues for the new Democratic majority to address. But that’s just it - make it about the issues - don’t make it personal - otherwise millions of Americans are unnecessarily alienated.

Remember it was Barry Goldwater who sounded the death knell for Nixon’s Presidency. Not that it wouldn’t have happened anyway - but we have to give principled conservatives a chance to play an important role in flushing out the corruption. Now that the Dems have Congressional control it actually makes it easier for them to do that.

Checks and balances are being given a chance. Let’s not ruin the opportunity with impatience.

Posted by: Walker Willingham at November 8, 2006 8:44 PM
Comment #194153

much as it pains me, you make a good point.

in anticipation of the work of your party (investigating these crimes), i shall be contacting my republican senators on the subject. while i strongly doubt they will listen, when the evidence from legitimate investigations emerges and accumulates, they will have little choice (i hope).

cross your fingers. don’t hold your breath.

(let’s not waste the opportunity with inaction, either)

Posted by: Diogenes at November 8, 2006 9:10 PM
Comment #194157

Well We took a beating,
Certainly did however if you look at the races most of the new incoming dems ran on republican issues less taxes ,support of our troops and WINNING the war on terror.This election may have been the best thing to happen to the republican party since 1994.Why you ask ?…well voters are busy living thier own life and every 2 years look at thier surrondings and then make a choice .for any to say youve got a mandate now is simply silly.However as many of these comments show ,and i firmly believe the dems will soon demonstrate they do not care about us all they want is revenge on george bush ,i say go for it Impeach him ,and when its all said and done and the new majority has raised our taxes ,unsuccesfully attempted to impeach a wartime president,recinded the ability of our intelligence service to protect us (resulting in another major horrific attack on our citizens and when we get to 2008 and the next election the dems will be not only thrown out it will be in such large numbers the the party will be finished.I started out as a dem and then as more and more radical groups joined the dems switched to republican ,primarily because of your fringes who supply the money theyve now become the hate america first group ,aand always blame america party.2 years is not that far away meanwhile this country has real problems in energy,immigration ,taxes,and MOST importantly around 100 million radical muslims ready and willing to die to advance thier goals,and destroy our nation.In addition we have Iran ,North Korea ,as major problems i personally think itll be amusing to watch the dems do nothing but whine and critize all the Bush adminastration has done to defend this country.weve gone 5 years with out an attack now ,Ill bet you prior to the next election no one will ba able to say that and we will have countless thousands who pay for thier mistakes and inabilty to defend america.as the saying goes if you pick it up and break it you own it.2 years will be long enough so that after the huge tax increases coming and multiple succesful attacks on america 2008 will make 94 look like a party.only hope im not where they hit us because of the dems refusal to defend us.So go for it dems investigate ,to your hearts desire ,attempt to impeach ,and revoke the rights of our government to protect us the price the party pays will be very severe in 2008.

Posted by: dragon_editor at November 8, 2006 9:46 PM
Comment #194159

It would certainly be interesting to watch Democrats prosecute/persecute Republicans for “crimes” that they themselves voted for, and which a great many among them still support.

And Adrienne, if Bush has destroyed the Consitution and turned the presidency into a dictatorship, it’s the first dictatorship of its kind in the history of the world: one in which the dictator’s party has been voted out and an opposition party voted in. Dammit!! Bush couldn’t even get his dictatorship right!

Posted by: Neo-Con Pilsner at November 8, 2006 9:56 PM
Comment #194162

Diogenese

YOu may not be a Dem, but you have revealed yoursellf. I do not think Republicans really need to worry about that hate and vitriol. Have fun with it, such as you can. Since you belong to no major party, you have the freedom to say what you want and the Kris Kristofferson philosophy applies.

Adrienne

Have fun with your hatred too. It will have to be its own reward. Most of the mob that stormed the Bastille ended poorly, and they really had a valid compliant.

You are about to be “betrayed” by your party. They are not as crazy as you think (hope) and they never actually promised anything. I am sure they will stand by your side just like they stood by Ned Lamont.

This election is a victory for the Dems, but if you look closely it is not an affirmation of liberalism.


Posted by: Jack at November 8, 2006 10:20 PM
Comment #194229

i agree that we could lose much of what we have won by pursuing the impeachment of bush at this point. he has effectively been stripped of power and credibility at this point, and as soon as the sore-loser republicans cede virginia (which i hope will be today) we can get on with the business of digging the country out of the hole that bush built. there’s a citizen’s impeachment petition set to go out on january 15th (more about that at my blog, and i’m glad that we’ve got some time to think about it before setting that wheel in motion. a completely ineffectual (albeit insane) president may serve us better than having all our new senators and reps focused on taking him out of office at the expense of everything else that needs to be done. we just have to hold the worst of him and his lawless administration in check for the next two yearsm and with a majority in the house, the senate and in governerships, that shouldn’t be impossible to do.

Posted by: Jackie Sheeler at November 9, 2006 9:01 AM
Comment #194233

It will interesting to see what we find now that the lid has been pried off this festering stew…Cheney fired the first shot across the bow by hinting that he will ignore any subpenoa…history will not be kind to this administration

www.minor-ripper.blogspot.com

Posted by: MinorRipper at November 9, 2006 9:33 AM
Comment #194240

So Bush gets impeached, we get Cheney,
Cheney goes to jail we get Pelosi,
All that has happened is we now have all 3 branches controlled by one party, and didnt we just learn that thats not good?
Move on, be positive and start fixing things.

Posted by: j2t2 at November 9, 2006 10:23 AM
Comment #194251

Walker:
“make it about the issues - don’t make it personal - otherwise millions of Americans are unnecessarily alienated.”

Walker, I believe it is both. It is about the issues and it is personal — because our soldiers have died or have been maimed or permanently disabled unnecessarily as a result. Our citizens have been spied upon unnecessarily. People have been tortured and held without charge unnecessarily. Our Constitution and the writ of Habeous Corpus have been scrapped unnecessarily.

“Remember it was Barry Goldwater who sounded the death knell for Nixon’s Presidency. Not that it wouldn’t have happened anyway - but we have to give principled conservatives a chance to play an important role in flushing out the corruption.”

I’m not for a moment saying we should shut Republicans out of the investigatory process, but after the fact that their rubberstamping lead to so much of it, I don’t really think we should now continue to make ourselves look as weak and compliant as we have looked for years, and simultaneously cede the position of real strength to the very same people who helped make all these investigations necessary.
I believe America is crying out for want of real, effective, honest and trustworthy leadership, Democrats should not meet that need by being fearful, overly polite and compliant in the face of all the serious lawbreaking and overstepping of authority that has been committed by this administration (and their former rubberstamping Congressional majority).
But then, what do I know, I was also the kind of Democrat who was disgusted that so many of the Dems couldn’t even scrape together enough nerve to step up beside an honest and fearless guy like Feingold, and sign on to censuring the president.

“Now that the Dems have Congressional control it actually makes it easier for them to do that.”

True. But let’s not forget that many of these people are the exact same folks who supported the Neocon dictatorship by not exercising any Congressional oversight, not asking any questions, and always voting in lockstep however the president wished.

“Checks and balances are being given a chance.”

Let’s hope. Personally, I won’t be forgetting that some of these Democrats also voted in support of a few of these outrages.

“Let’s not ruin the opportunity with impatience.”

I agree. I’m not at all suggesting that our leadership do anything willy-nilly or impatiently. Instead, they should carefully and calmly and methodically begin taking care of the business of government. And at the same time, they shouldn’t neglect to begin conducting investigations — after years of virtually no oversight and much lawbreaking on the part of this administration — in that exact same manner.

Posted by: Adrienne at November 9, 2006 11:02 AM
Comment #194269


Do any of you actually, really know what is going on in Iraq outside of what the media is reporting?

What are the Iraqi’s saying?

Under Saddam, there was only 1 newspaper, and 1 tv station. Now there are over 150. There is a bipartisan group called the institue for War and Peace Reporting. They go into these troubled areas and trainedthe natives how to be objective journalists to report the facts and not propaganda.

They have a website iwpr.net and you can sign up for free emails from each region. There is Afghanistan, Iraq, Africa, Balkans, and other areas.

I’ve been reading these reports for years and to be honest, the situation is not as bad as the liberals paint it. But it is not as rosy as the COnservative spin it either.

Below is the latest report directly from Iraq as reported by Iraqi’s themselves.

As you can see, it is a mixed bag. There is positive and negatives. The fact that the Iraqi military is capturing insurgents on their own is a great sign. That means our troops are training them, and our troops are not in harms way on these missions.

Ont he otherhand, there is a mas migration to the Kurdish held provinces. Read below and educate yourself.

IRAQI PRESS MONITOR, 8 November 06

ARAB DOCTORS HEAD FOR KURDISTAN
(Hawlati) Sulaimaniyah Director General of Health Dr Sherko Abdullah
said that 150 doctors from central and southern parts of Iraq have come
to Suleimaniyah province since the fall of the former regime. Abdullah
told Hawlati that the authorities assist the newcomers by covering their
rents, helping them set up clinical practices and finding them jobs in
public hospitals. The doctors have been coming to Sulaimaniyah because
of the bad security in the rest of the country. According to officials,
50,000 people from central and southern Iraq have fled to the Iraqi
Kurdistan to escape the conflict.
(Hawlati is and independent newspaper issued weekly in Sulaimaniyah)

SUSPECTED INSURGENTS ARRESTED IN KIRKUK AND SULEIMANIYAH
(Kuridstani Nwe) Brigadier General Sarhad Qadir, Kirkuk municipality’s
chief of police, said 21 suspected terrorists had been arrested in
Yarimja village in southern Kirkuk. In the operation, police seized four
vehicles, 17 AK47s and explosives. In a separate development, security
forces in the town Kalar south east of Suleimaniyah arrested five people
suspected of having links with the al-Qaeda and theThawrat al-Ishreen
extremist groups.
(Kurdistani Nwe is a political daily issued by the Patriotic Union of
Kurdistan.)

Posted by: RedStapler at November 9, 2006 12:19 PM
Comment #194281

Jack,

I think Adrienne and Diogenes have valid points. An investigation by a bipartisan committee(keeping the public informed as to progress and or difficulty) and adressing key issues is not hatred, impatience or foolish. We need to show the world that Americans are willing to hold our leaders accountable for their crimes as we would protest other world leaders for theirs. If we allow the president to get away with what he did, we are saying that it wasn’t a very big deal. It was!
Now let’s not mistake my call for justice a sign of hatred for the President. It’s a call for an investigation into what alot of us see as abuses of power.
Your logic:
Blow-job + lie = impeach

War for nonexistent WMD + spying + torture + lies + corruption + waste +polarizing citizens + Katrina response + energy meeting w/ CEO’s of energy companies + Haliburton contracts + corporate welfare for oil companies + medicare( pharmaceutical Co’s windfall) = No problem, let’s move on.
We’ll move on but the most secretive administration of all time needs to answer questions. I have alot of them. It sounds like Diogenes and Adrienne have some too.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at November 9, 2006 1:21 PM
Comment #194288

Andre:

I saw go ahead and bring on the investigations, to expose liberal ignorance. I say bring all the evidence forward.

Here’s what you are going to find:

No WMD? Let’s start with 17 UN Resolutions. Those Resolutions took 12 years by the way. So let’s go through 12 years of documentation intelligence, etc.

Then let’s bring in the survivors of Hallabjah and the Anfal campaign.

Then we can bring in the Israeli’s and ask them why they bombed an Iraqi nuclear facility when there was no WMD. How did Iraq have a nuclear facility when there was no WMD?

Point is, there was WMD - but somehow it disappeared. Why not investigate what happened to it. It might lead you to Syria or Iran. But no, let’s focus our venom on Bush instead of the real enemy.

I saw bring it on. Saddam Hussein is on trial right now for the Anfal Campaign, but the press is ignoring it. Over 5,000 people died when a chemical bomb was dropped on the town of Hallabjah. Chemical bombs are WMD.


Let’s go ahead and focus on Katrina. There is a ton of blame to go around. If you want jail time be prepared, because it wont just be Republicans. Let’s start with the State and local officials who sat back and did nothing at all. Let’s start with Ray Nagin leaving all those school buses under water. Then we’ll move up to the Governor from there. Oops, those are Democrats.

Then let’s move on to Corporate America. I say let’s punish the oil companies, and Pharma, and severely fine them so they wont have any money to hire people or any money for alternative energy and Stem Cell research. Let’s have them spend all their money on lawyers to try to defend themselves and waste money. In the end it will be inconclusive.

To date, there have been close to 40 investigations of the oil industry regarding prices. They have all concluded it was supply and demand. Let’s prevent new oil refineries from being built and lets restrict the industry as much as we can, then investigate them as to why the prices went up.

There hasn’t been a new oil refinery built in the US in the last 30 years. Let’s bring Jimmy Carter up there and ask him why.

I say let’s punish big Pharma so they’ll have to raise their prices even higher.

Then all those old people who have their 401k’s with stocks in the big Pharma companies will go bankrupt because their stocks will be useless.


I say bring it on.

Posted by: RedStapler at November 9, 2006 2:55 PM
Comment #194305

bring it on?

Isn’t the definition of insanity “repeating the same action yet expecting different results”?

Posted by: Dave1-20-09 at November 9, 2006 4:26 PM
Comment #194316

Andre

Ask all you want.

The investigations will turn up nothing much and waste a lot of time.

Merry Fitzmas, remember that?

Posted by: Jack at November 9, 2006 5:29 PM
Comment #194328

—Adrienne an -Andre— Both very respectable
posts. I enjoy some rhyme an reason with good
critical thinking, showing good works like you
an some of the other contributors here. Strange
thing, given a chance shows how well Democracy, given a chance will always prevail. Thanks both
an others for standing up for your beliefs.

Posted by: DAVID at November 9, 2006 7:06 PM
Comment #194329

RedStapler: Saddams horrible crimes should not go unpunished. Niether should those accomplises that supplied and trained him in the use of WMDS to commit those crimes.Lets see now.That would be Donald Rumsfeld and the Reagan -Bush administration. Useing that a a pretense to our invasion is like the police planting dope on someone and then bragging when they arrest them.

Neo-Con: Your assertion that SS and immigration will not be dealt with because of the negative political ramifications is only true if the problems are approached from the direction of the right wing congress that has just been repudiated and removed from office.For example,reform of SS to the Reps is another way of saying cut benfits and work at getting rid of the program all together.Reform to the Dems is more like,raise or eliminate the cap on the amount of salery that is taxable,repeal many of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy and pay back the SS trust fund. On immigration,enforce employers santions,close the border,establish a guest worker program that is fair to workers on both sides of the border,allow current undocumented immigrants already here to join the progrm and give those that choose to ,after a background check,a path to citizenship that is not so punitive that they will just stay underground,apply pressure on Mexico and US companies in Mexico for economic reforms,including the right to join independant trade unions,to make possible for Mexicans to support their families without emmigating. Increase family planning and education funding for Mexico to ease poverty and overpopulation in the future. None of these real solutions to the problems you mentioned would even be considered under the close minded and failed leadership of your perty. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Posted by: BillS at November 9, 2006 7:09 PM
Comment #194335

“Merry Fitzmas”

Jack,

If memory serves right I believe Fitzmas starts in January and ol’ Saint Fitz may well open a few wounds.

Not likely though. The Pres will block n’ stall.

Posted by: KansasDem at November 9, 2006 7:46 PM
Comment #194337

-RedStapler- I think yo neglected to say that the
oil companies closed down 25 Refineries an refused
to sell them. Most are still sitting idle. This
all in the past 12 years.

Posted by: DAVID at November 9, 2006 8:06 PM
Comment #194340

Thanks Andre and DAVID, I appreciate the support. It’s very tiring being treated like an overly emotional crazy leftwingnut in this blog (even though I’m not), so your comments mean a lot to me.

Posted by: Adrienne at November 9, 2006 8:33 PM
Comment #194342

BillS:

If there was no WMD according liberals, how can you then go back and charge former administration officials?

But I also think our allegiance to Saddam goes all the way back to the Carter days. Iran was holding US citizens hostage at the time.

DAVID:

Federal regulations made it extremely difficult to sell these assets, and extremely difficult to build new ones.

Posted by: RedStapler at November 9, 2006 8:46 PM
Comment #194347

RedStapler

What is wrong is your time line. The chemical weapons systems we provided Iraq were,by the time of our invasion,degraded or dismantled. To use them for a justification for invasion is disigenious. Beyond that, as to wether or not our invasion and the wars contiued prosecution were or are justified is a moot point.The expedition has been a failure and it is time to get out as best as possible. This is the conclusion of the American people or were you asleep last tuesday.

Posted by: BillS at November 9, 2006 9:24 PM
Comment #194356

BillS

0.47% That is Zero, point, four, seven that is the amount of Saddam’s arsenal supplied by the U.S. in all those years he was dictator.

I know you dislike Bush, but you have no need to trash your country to get at him in past time. Politics should at least slow down at the water’s edge.

Posted by: Jack at November 9, 2006 10:31 PM
Comment #194378

Jack: Site source please and definitions. By that Imean do you count chemical precursors for WMDs for example or just hard ordinance. As for trashing my country,I would submit that the people trashing my country are the ones that would supply such a madman or arm and train the Talaban and turn them loose on the world.

Posted by: BillS at November 9, 2006 11:50 PM
Comment #194384

jack,

you make less sense with every post you make.

cheers.

Posted by: Diogenes at November 10, 2006 1:16 AM
Comment #194386

neopubs,

you were wrong about iraq.
you were wrong about the policies.
you were wrong about the midterms.
you are wrong about the impending investigations.

no comments necessary. one question. do you ever tire of being wrong?

Posted by: Diogenes at November 10, 2006 1:30 AM
Comment #194426

Diogenes

You are just showing your inexperience. I gave up on you once, but mistakenly relented. My triumph of hope over experience is finished again. We shall speak no more. There are plenty of other people you can bother and pleny of others with whom I can have a logical conversation.

Posted by: Jack at November 10, 2006 9:35 AM
Comment #194450

BillS:

You were the one who said the WMD was supplied by the US. But how can that be if there was no WMD.

The opposition to the war was based on a soundbite, “No WMD.” So if you believe that, then what happens when evidence to the contrary comes along (such as the Anfal campaign, Hallabjah). By the way, if this was so long ago, why is Saddam being chrged with these crimes that were commtted in the late 1970’s and throughout the 1980’s.

Iraqi’s have charged Saddam with Genocide in his 2nd trial. Disfigured witnesses from his chemical attacks gave testimony.

Let’s get over the “No WMD” slogan andconcentrate on where they went to.

For some reason, the left is more concerned about no WMD and blaming Bush, rather than being concerend about finding the WMD. It is very likely that Saddam shipped the WMD to Syria and Iran. So how could that happen if Bush rushed to war? Saddam had over a year to get rid of them before we invaded.

Isn’t anybody concerned about where they went to?

Posted by: RedStapler at November 10, 2006 12:30 PM
Comment #194465

Repairing international relations should be a major focus in the new Congress. Bolton will be out at the UN. Rummy is gone. How many more heads will roll? Bush is on the run, but it would be a waste of time for congress to attempt an impeachment.

Posted by: ohrealy at November 10, 2006 1:19 PM
Comment #194481

(triumph of hope over experience?) you’re an odd one, to be sure.

take care then.

Posted by: Diogenes at November 10, 2006 2:57 PM
Comment #194689

I believe that since the congress and senate gave they selves raises behind closed doors, I think a cut should go into effect to undo the raises.The rules should be changed, pay cuts for all in the senate and congress. Their slaries be should set by the people they work for. Things have gotten out of hand in Washington.One thing that should go into law is that once they leave office their salary should stop. We do not owe these people for the rest of their lives.
They should earn a good living wage and expenses paid.With a cap on the amount of workers they can had in their offices.
We need now to tighten down on their salaries, and put them back in line , with the job.and they should be made to pay into social security and draw it when they are old enough like all workers in the U.S.That is one way to insure social security.
They should have all expenses paid while they are in office. But when they leave they should have social security like the rest of us plus what they can save.These people are not better than the people they serve.
We as a counrty cannot take care of these people all the rest of their lives. The U.S. can not afford that now , after what Bush has done.When they get us back into the black then they should have raises. They should have raises just like what social security. and have the same insurance as the people and pay the same amount for drugs.then we can hope for change.

Posted by: Sue McAvoy at November 12, 2006 12:05 AM
Comment #194690

I believe that since the congress and senate gave they selves raises behind closed doors, I think a cut should go into effect to undo the raises.The rules should be changed, pay cuts for all in the senate and congress. Their slaries be should set by the people they work for. Things have gotten out of hand in Washington.One thing that should go into law is that once they leave office their salary should stop. We do not owe these people for the rest of their lives.
They should earn a good living wage and expenses paid.With a cap on the amount of workers they can had in their offices.
We need now to tighten down on their salaries, and put them back in line , with the job.and they should be made to pay into social security and draw it when they are old enough like all workers in the U.S.That is one way to insure social security.
They should have all expenses paid while they are in office. But when they leave they should have social security like the rest of us plus what they can save.These people are not better than the people they serve.
We as a counrty cannot take care of these people all the rest of their lives. The U.S. can not afford that now , after what Bush has done.When they get us back into the black then they should have raises. They should have raises just like what social security. and have the same insurance as the people and pay the same amount for drugs.then we can hope for change.

Posted by: Sue McAvoy at November 12, 2006 12:05 AM
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