Democrats & Liberals Archives

"Stay The Course"

Recently retired military officers who served in Iraq(What would they know?) have spoken out against Rumsfeld and his numerous failures in the “War on Terror.”
I know that being a real Patriot means “staying the course”, but some of us have disliked the course from day one.
I know that the “real” Americans should ignore the National Intelligence Estimate and it’s conclusions that the Iraq war has worsened the threat of global terrorism, but once again it’s hard for us “cut and runners” to wrap our minds around something we were not for from day one.

Catchy phrases like "Iraqi Freedom", "Islamofascists", "Cut and Run" have all made for interesting rallying cries for the Bush administration to keep the sheep "on course."
What will they do now that the military and intelligence agencies are telling the truth?
There is the six month old National Intelligence Estimate that concludes the debacle in Iraq is doing exactly what those who were ignored have been saying all along. This war is creating more terrorists than it is eliminating.
Rumsfeld has once again been called out for his numerous failures and poor planning and implementation of the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
Retired Army Maj. Gen. Paul D. Eaton said Rumsfeld "continues to fight the war on the cheap." and denounced him as "incompetent."
Are you sure you want to "stay the course?"
Retired Army Maj. Gen. John Batiste called the United States, "arguably less safe now than it was on Sept. 11, 2001."
Retired Marine Col. Thomas X. Hammes compared the shifting of insufficient U.S. troops from one hot spot to another to a game of "Whack-A-Mole."
Those of us who have been against this war from the start, never wanted this course. Why would this group of incompetent, Draft-Dodging elitists think we'd want to "stay the course" now that they've made a bad course even worse?
Our troops are in harms way. There was no threat from Saddam. There were no ties between Iraq and 9/11. They lied! Our soldiers are dying for an idea hatched by men who have no qualms about sending our young poor and middle class kids to die for the military industrial complex profiteers and for imaginary oil revenue.
"The course" is built on lies and paved with mistakes. We need to change course in 06 and 08.

Posted by Andre M. Hernandez at September 26, 2006 9:06 AM
Comments
Comment #183930
There is the six month old National Intelligence Estimate that concludes the debacle in Iraq is doing exactly what those who were ignored have been saying all along. This war is creating more terrorists than it is eliminating.

To all supporters of the Iraq War out there: I TOLD YOU SO!

Posted by: bobo at September 26, 2006 10:14 AM
Comment #183934

Well, I guess it must be election season againg if the New York Times and Washington Post are cooking up fake news stories in order to carry the Democrats’ water.

Let’s see, a few individuals—wanna guess what party they belong to?—leak from a classified reporter to reporter of the New York Times (Get Fitgzerald on that right away!). And what do they say? Something that everybody else who has seen the report say is an oversimplifed, cherry-picked version of what it actually contains. Others who have seen it say that it precisely does NOT say what these Democratic hacks illegally leaking to the most liberal lying newspaper in the world say it does.

Three retired Army officers criticize the adminstration? What about the hundreds upon hundereds who support the administration? Will we ever hear about that, or does the media simply fall all over themselves in glee to find a couple people who feel like they do?

Yes, it must be election season again. Stand out of the way because the Dan Rather/Jayson Blair media is about to start throwing BS in every direction on the orders of their Democratic Party bosses.

Posted by: Pilsner at September 26, 2006 10:36 AM
Comment #183940

Pilsner,

Wow - you think the entire intelligence community, all of the Defense department’s analysts, are doing Democrat’s bidding?

You guys are more paranoid than I thought.

Posted by: Max at September 26, 2006 10:41 AM
Comment #183941

Max, you don’t get it, do you?

We have no idea what the entire intelligence community says. We don’t even know what is in that report.

All we know is what a few anonymous leakers have reportedly told to a far left Democratic-party news organ. Material which is in direct conflict with how others who have actually seen the report characterize it.

In other words, this is a pre-election hit job that cannot be refuted or confirmed because it’s based on a classified intelligence report.

Posted by: Pilsner at September 26, 2006 10:49 AM
Comment #183944

I love reading Conservatives accuse Democrats of “cherry picking” intelligence!

Posted by: bobo at September 26, 2006 11:04 AM
Comment #183946

calling Maj. Gen. John Batiste simply a retired officer is kind of like calling George Bush a civil servant. It’s accurate but just doesn’t quite cut to the chase.

But half-truths seem to be standard for both the far right and far left.

Posted by: Tom L at September 26, 2006 11:13 AM
Comment #183947

pilsner,

No, I think it’s you who don’t get it. Reading your post all I see is regurgitated talking points. No fact, no supportable representation of reality, just a rehash of what you want the reality to be.
“There are none so blind as those who will not see.” But, the right needs this cognitive dissaonance. Because otherwise the guilt, for those with a conscience, would be overwhelming.

Posted by: Dave1-20-09 at September 26, 2006 11:14 AM
Comment #183949

Dave1
Andre’s whole post is nothing but “regurgitated talking points.”
Bush lied! NIE! NIE! Told you so! They ignored us! etc…

ALL our generals concerns should be addressed. Only acknowledging the pro or con viewpoint does nothing but hurt the troops who serve.

And “stay the course?” What is the course? How are you privy to it and how do you know we are not adapting new strategies each day?

Andre is right about one thing though, our troops are in harms way and we must allow them more options.

Posted by: kctim at September 26, 2006 11:26 AM
Comment #183950

Tom L.,

Your argument about MG Batiste isn’t quite accurate depending on which point you’re trying to make. For example, MG Batiste was a division commander, which ranks him far far above me, but still means he was concerned with affairs at the tactical level, in his case his division’s area of Iraq, not with strategic decisions. While his rank and experience give him a far firmer basis to criticize Rumsfeld than does mine as a junior officer or a civilian, at his level he would not be dealing directly with Rumsfeld or the other higher civilian leadership on a frequent basis. Based on what happened to his division, he may or may not be right, but he was not in a position to have oversight over the conduct of the entire war. I did like your analogy, though.

Posted by: 1LT B at September 26, 2006 11:28 AM
Comment #183953

So - the support for our current leadership boils down to “nuh huh!”

Swell.

Posted by: tony at September 26, 2006 11:44 AM
Comment #183955

The biggest problem I see here is the administration’s complete denial that there is even a problem in Iraq. KCTim, your notion that by questioning the way the war is run you are endangering the troops is not only laughable, but actually the exact opposite of what is true. It is pretty obvious that, whatever the strategy was, it was bad. And I’m no military expert, but my thinking would be that bad strategy is probably not a good thing for the people doing the fighting. I know, sounds crazy.

Posted by: David S at September 26, 2006 11:47 AM
Comment #183956

Pilsner,

Lay off the bad beer man, it’s clouding your perception!


You simultaneously accuse the democrats of “Cherry-Picking” and then point out that the reposrt may come to a completely different conclusion. YOU DON’T KNOW THAT ANY MORE THAN ANYBODY ELSE NOT PRIVY TO IT!!!

I sincerely hope it gets declassified, but I know the senior spin doctor (Rove) is already working on how to handle it when it goes public…or in the alternative, how to block it from going public before the elections.

What we DO, most assuredly, KNOW, is that many of those whose input is an integral part of the report, are talking about how accurate it is and how true the assessment of the situation is. I am talking about the senior military leaders who have already come forward to talk about the situation in Iraq. They are corroborating the story so far, as it has been released to date. That, all by itself is enough to put the lie to the “Cherry-picking” accusation.

Pilsner, you are faced with yet more well founded and reputable information that makes the foolishness and stupidity of our current course VERY clear. You have two choices:

1)Consider the possibility that the report is true and accurate and then seek to do something about the situation so as to put us back on the right path -
OR
2) AUTOMATICALLY and without consideration at all to the report or to whether or not the right thing is being done, become a blind apologist for this administration and run the risk that you, and the administration are wrong with all the horrific consequences that go with that error in judgement.

We’ve seen what your knee-jerk initial reaction is. After giving it careful thought, is it the same?

Posted by: RGf at September 26, 2006 11:47 AM
Comment #183960

Look unless the ENTIRE report gets declassified then we may never know the true picture. My personal oppinions agree with what was leaked. However, being open-minded, I would love to see the entire report declassified. My fear is that the administration will declassify “portions” of the report that support their politics (much like the left is currently doing).

Posted by: Tom L at September 26, 2006 11:57 AM
Comment #183961

kctim,

Perhaps we have different definitions of “talking point”. I hardly any in Andre’s posting, certainly not the ones you refer to. He listed public statements and recounted the Bush administrations catch phrases; with a few pieces of chum (admitedly) thrown in.
Pilsner, OTOH, simply repeated the catch phrases, i.e. ‘talking points’. I also take exception that open discussion hurts the troops. Only hiding the truth and failing to provide competent leadership hurts them.

Posted by: Dave1-20-09 at September 26, 2006 11:58 AM
Comment #183963

Dave
“your notion that by questioning the way the war is run you are endangering the troops is not only laughable, but actually the exact opposite of what is true”

Where did I say that?

—-ALL our generals concerns should be addressed. Only acknowledging the pro or con viewpoint does nothing but hurt the troops who serve—-

If we choose to ignore those with concerns, such as the generals Andre mentions, then we do our troops no good.
If we choose to ignore those with a differing opinion, then we do our troops no good.

Where did I say questioning was bad?

“It is pretty obvious that, whatever the strategy was, it was bad.”

Whatever the strategy? So you don’t know what the “strategy” was then.

“And I’m no military expert, but my thinking would be that bad strategy is probably not a good thing for the people doing the fighting.”

If you do not know what the strategy is or was, then how do you know it has not changed?

“I know, sounds crazy.”

Not at all. Now, believing SOP’s don’t change every day with every threat, well, that is crazy.

Posted by: kctim at September 26, 2006 12:06 PM
Comment #183965

Dave1
We do not have different definitions.

“Pilsner, OTOH, simply repeated the catch phrases, i.e. ‘talking points’.”

Bush lied is a catch phrase.

“I also take exception that open discussion hurts the troops.”

I never said it did, see my post to the other Dave.

“Only hiding the truth and failing to provide competent leadership hurts them”

Hiding the truth goes both ways though.
Denying any success and choosing to not acknowledge that success, hurts as well.

Posted by: kctim at September 26, 2006 12:11 PM
Comment #183966

Bush just said he’s declassifying the report.

Posted by: David S at September 26, 2006 12:15 PM
Comment #183968

Beautiful!

This is going to be interesting.

Posted by: RGF at September 26, 2006 12:26 PM
Comment #183970
Bush just said he is declassifying the report.

No, he is only declassifying parts of the report. More cherry picking

Posted by: bobo at September 26, 2006 12:30 PM
Comment #183971

And right after declassifying the report, he needs to order the arrest and trial of the leakers and NY Times reporter on charges of treason and espionage.

This stuff is ridiculous and has been going on for far too long—the publication of outright lies and half truths and national secrets for no other reason than to undermine a war that we are currently fighting.

Honestly, it’s time we start seeing long prison terms and some death-penalty trials for some of these leakers and reporters who have made themselves the allies of Al Qaida during a time of war.

Posted by: Pilsner at September 26, 2006 12:34 PM
Comment #183973
it is time we start seeing long prison terms and some death-penalty trials for some of these leakers and reporters who have made themselves the allies of Al Qaida during a time of war.

I’d agree with you, if we were actually fighting Al Qaeda. But in Iraq, we’re not.

Posted by: bobo at September 26, 2006 12:37 PM
Comment #183974

Why? He was about to declassify the report anyway, right? Doesn’t that work?

Posted by: RGF at September 26, 2006 12:37 PM
Comment #183975

I just think it’s amusing that dems and libs are listening to certain military personnel. I remember so many comments from liberals in the past that us military folk “are all the same”, “just a bunch of robots”, and “have no mind for themselves”.

But when they have some folks in uniform helping their side of the argument it’s suddenly “Can I pour you a cup of coffee?” and “How about we put you up at the Hilton?”. That’s rich.

And as far as only having a few military personnel stating this one viewpoint … TALK ABOUT CHERRY PICKING!!!

Posted by: Ken Strong at September 26, 2006 12:40 PM
Comment #183976

kctim,

I’m only quoting folks who voiced their concerns and I happen to share these concerns.
Was there any ties between Al Queda and Saddam?
This administration said that was true.
Was there WMD (Mushroom cloud) in Iraq?
This administration said it was true.
Dis Saddam have anything to do with 9/11(Prague meeting)?
This administration said it was true
Were we greeted as liberators?
Did we accomplish “the mission?”
I don’t think so.
Did we torture and have secret prisons?
This administration said that these”liberal media”,troop hurting, naysayer stories were untrue.
Turns out that they were.
You keep believing Cheney,Rumsfeld,Bush and Rice.
I never did so why would I after all the lies they’ve told.


Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at September 26, 2006 12:43 PM
Comment #183977
I just think it’s amusing that dems and libs are listening to certain military personnel. I remember so many comments from liberals in the past that us military folk ‘are all the same’, ‘just a bunch of robots’, and ‘have no mind for themselves’.

Who said that? Cite some evidence pal! and NO: Michael Moore does NOT count! Pick a NATIONALLY KNOWN ELECTED OFFICIAL!

Posted by: bobo at September 26, 2006 12:43 PM
Comment #183980

Just as I thought….

PARTS of the report….hmmmm

Posted by: Tom L at September 26, 2006 12:52 PM
Comment #183981

Ken Strong,

when one uses quotation marks they are usually followed up by the source of the remark or the phrase within the remark is usually well known and needs no source. I don’t think you meet the latter. examples of phrases that need no source…”cut and run”, “Amnesty”, “stay the course”.

I happen to respect our military and have very high regard for military service men and women. Some would consider me left-leaning….I never thought, nor said, nor heard anything like you quoted.

Posted by: Tom L at September 26, 2006 12:56 PM
Comment #183983

Andre,
“Our troops are in harms way. There was no threat from Saddam. There were no ties between Iraq and 9/11.”


Come on, Andre! We’ve been over this a thousands times within the past 3 years. Saddam was (definitely) a threat to everyone for decades. The case was not made that Saddam was (directly) responsible for 9/11. Even the 9/11 commission report said that Saddam wasn’t responsible in an “operative” way; they just agreed he had ties to terrorism. So, let’s move on from that.

Also, you have to realize that if we pull out of any conflict (especially Iraq) then that will be a victory for the terrorists. Now, anybody on America’s side has to understand that and let’s move on and win this (damn) war!!!

Posted by: rahdigly at September 26, 2006 1:01 PM
Comment #183984
Come on, Andre! We’ve been over this a thousands times within the past 3 years. … So, let’s move on from that. …if we pull out of any conflict … then that will be a victory for the terrorists.

As the NIE report states, the terrorists are winning because we are in Iraq. This is not your typical military conflict, rahdigly.

Posted by: bobo at September 26, 2006 1:07 PM
Comment #183987

rahdigly,

“Win this damn war” …you say?

The whole point is that we are not doing anything of the sort. In fact, we are making it worse!

Why is that so hard to get? It shouldn’t be. WE are providing the catalys for the exponantial increase in terrorism. WE are providing the battle-hardending ground for our enemies to attack us to rally their recruitment efforts. WE are not only put our own in harm’s way, but doing so in a way that makes ALL Americans exponentially LESS safe both here and abroad.

Posted by: RGF at September 26, 2006 1:09 PM
Comment #183989

Rahdigly,

I think Andre’s point was this administration has sold things as fact that aren’t necessarily so. Now, I realize most administrations do this but when other recent administrations have done so it has not cost nearly 1 trillion dollars and nearly 3000 lives.

That said, I agree Sadaam was a threat. He was a threat to the Kurds, to many Shites, and to Iran. I can name leaders that meet the same definition in general. The point is….was he a real and present danger to the United States of America? If you think so, I’ve got some ocean front property in Arizona you may be interested in….at a dirt cheap price.

GW while being interviews stated that (I summarize and don’t have the direct quote): … When you hear of eavesdropping on American citizens there is a court order…a warrant….

yeah, right! Lie to me once shame on you….how does that go again (LOL)…..anyway, you get my drift.

Posted by: Tom L at September 26, 2006 1:13 PM
Comment #183994

kc,

“Bush lied is a catch phrase.”
Andre identified the lies. Recounting the lies while defining their implications in context is not “repeating talking points”. It is forming the basis for an argument.

“I also take exception that open discussion hurts the troops.” I never said it did
You said: “acknowledging the pro or con viewpoint does nothing but hurt the troops who serve.”
Hiding the truth goes both ways though. Denying any success and choosing to not acknowledge that success, hurts as well.
I’d be happy to listen to real successes. But I think what you call “denying any success” I call “facing reality”. Posted by: Dave1-20-09 at September 26, 2006 1:32 PM
Comment #183996

“Andre identified the lies. Recounting the lies while defining their implications in context is not “repeating talking points”. It is forming the basis for an argument.”

Then shouldn’t he be sharing his proof of these lies with the Dem leadership and the media?
If not, then he is only forming a biased argument based on his opinions.

“You said: “acknowledging the pro or con viewpoint does nothing but hurt the troops who serve.””

Yes, PRO or con. Seems I may have left out the word ONLY, my apologies.

“I’d be happy to listen to real successes. But I think what you call “denying any success” I call “facing reality””

Well, thats a start I guess.

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/

You could also talk to troops who have actually been there if you would like to “face reality.”

Posted by: kctim at September 26, 2006 1:41 PM
Comment #183997

The troops who have been there, from the rank and file to those with the greatest view of the broader picture, HAVE been talking openly and loudly to us all.

Have you not been listening?

Posted by: RGF at September 26, 2006 1:48 PM
Comment #184002

IMPEACH BUSH!

Posted by: MH at September 26, 2006 2:06 PM
Comment #184003

Yes RGF, I have been. But I have been listening to ALL of them, not just to the ones who say how bad things are.

Posted by: kctim at September 26, 2006 2:07 PM
Comment #184019

Andre,

Good article. It’s good to remember that there never was a “post-invasion” plan:

“In fact, said Brig. Gen. Mark Scheid, Rumsfeld said “he would fire the next person” who talked about the need for a postwar plan.”


“Rumsfeld did replace Gen. Eric Shinseki, the Army chief of staff in 2003, after Shinseki told Congress that hundreds of thousands of troops would be needed to secure postwar Iraq.”

http://www.theolympian.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060909/NEWS/609090335

Sadly, I do agree with Rahdigly that we must win this damn war.

A good place to start would be restoring some true congressional oversight and also firing Rummy!

KansasDem

Posted by: KansasDem at September 26, 2006 2:39 PM
Comment #184030

You know, kctim,

I don’t like ANYBODY’S spin. I don’t like spin at all. I don’t care about reports of “how bad things are” so long as we are moving in the right direction. That’s the real problem. It’s not about pessimism or optimism or spin or who’s negative and who’s positive…

It’s about whether what we are doing WORKS!
…and we now know it does not. Many of us knew that before, but you and yours ignored us and insisted WE were the ones with ‘spin’.
We don’t want to crow or make political hay with this so much as we want to fix the problem and finally do what works!

Now…the political part of this comes when you have to recognize that Bush’s and to a lessor degree the republican’s version of “staying the course” is actually a pig-headedly stubborn policy of not recognizing and learning from mistakes. We won’t ever take a step a step back and figure out what works until we get this bunch out of office. That is political, I recognize that; but it is the practicality of it that makes all the sense. This bunch has too much false pride to ever see or recognize what they should do differently. Therefore we are stuck and getting worse until we remove them.

VOTE DEMOCRAT

Posted by: RGF at September 26, 2006 3:01 PM
Comment #184033

A more accurate rendition of “stay the course” would be: “Now that we are in a hole, let’s continue to dig.”

Posted by: Dragon at September 26, 2006 3:05 PM
Comment #184037

Tom,
“The point is…was he a real and present danger to the United States of America? If you think so, I’ve got some ocean front property in Arizona you may be interested in….at a dirt cheap price.”


Oh, ok George Straight, you going to “throw in the Golden Gate Bridge for free”? After 9/11, we looked at our threats differently; we weren’t going to wait for our threats to fully materialize. We weren’t going to sit around and wait for Saddam to make WMD’s and give it to the terrorists; or use it on Israel. It just wasn’t going to happen, so get over it and let’s move on.

The fact is that recruiting for terrorism was at its’ highest point in the 90’s; when we pulled out of Mogadishu and didn’t respond to the bombings. Bin Laden and his gang used that as a recruiting tool. In Iraq, we have a country for them to actually fight and die (!!), rather than hiding in different countries. If we pull out of Iraq, it will be just like pulling out of Mogadishu. Period! The recruitment will be bigger than ever, b/c they know that all they have to do to beat the “infidels” is to provide suicide bombers and show chaos using the media. They’ll definitely win and who will be responsible for not backing their country when we (and the troops) needed it the most?! Let me guess, Bush and the republicans…

Posted by: rahdigly at September 26, 2006 3:09 PM
Comment #184041

RGF
“but you and yours ignored us and insisted WE were the ones with ‘spin’.”

Mine? I was against going into Iraq. And how could anybody ignore the left and insist they were the ones with spin, when most of the Dems in power voted for the war?

“We don’t want to crow or make political hay with this so much as we want to fix the problem and finally do what works!”

Really now? So what part of the Dem plan, other than turning it over to the UN, would be different than the plan now in place? How do you know what the plan in place is?

“Now…the political part of this comes when you have to recognize that Bush’s and to a lessor degree the republican’s version of “staying the course” is actually a pig-headedly stubborn policy of not recognizing and learning from mistakes.”

What is this “course” then? If you know they are not learning from their mistakes, you must surely know what the plan is.

“Therefore we are stuck and getting worse until we remove them.”

Hey, your entitled to your opinion. My opinion says you are naive to believe things will change that drastically though.

“VOTE DEMOCRAT”

I would consider it if a Democrat ever runs for President again.

Posted by: kctim at September 26, 2006 3:21 PM
Comment #184042
After 9/11, we looked at our threats differently

I have one simply question for you, rahdigly:

In January of 2003, in your opinion, which group was a more serious threat to the Security of the United States:

1. Osama Bin Laden and his Al Qaeda followers, or

2. Saddam Hussein’s Iraq

Posted by: bobo at September 26, 2006 3:21 PM
Comment #184044

rahdigly,

…and now we know what comes after, or instead of, the careful and considered thought.

So much for taking a step back.

Posted by: RGF at September 26, 2006 3:24 PM
Comment #184045

“The troops who have been there, from the rank and file to those with the greatest view of the broader picture, HAVE been talking openly and loudly to us all. Have you not been listening?”


Yes we have. And, we certainly listened to them, in November 2004, when they voted to reelect Bush by a vote margin of nearly 4 to 1.

That was to reelect; not impeach or smear. So, now, are you listening to them?!!! Do you guys (truly) want them to win?!!


RGF,
“The whole point is that we are not doing anything of the sort. In fact, we are making it worse!”

We will make it worse if we pullout and retreat. Period!!! It can’t be anymore clearer than that. Sorry dude, that’s just a fact.

Posted by: rahdigly at September 26, 2006 3:25 PM
Comment #184051

kctim,

You are talking a lot of trash.

You say: “Really now? So what part of the Dem plan, other than turning it over to the UN, would be different than the plan now in place? How do you know what the plan in place is?”

Are you aware that the U.N. offered to send in peace keepers AFTER the war began? As far back as a couple of years ago? …and Bush turned them DOWN FLAT! Think of the saved lives! Think of the preserved moral authority and moral strength we would still have in the eyes of the WORLD! in fact, JUST THINK, PERIOD

As for the crack about the dems voting for the war. I have gone over and gone and gone over this. ONE MORE TIME:
Bush lied to both Congress and the U.N. when he said would abide by the newly obtained agreement - article 1441. The Senate, Kerry included, voted for support the war so long as we abided by the agreemets within 1441! We did not, and when it became clear that 1441 was only a ruse, many, including Kerry STUCK TO THEIR GUNS and made it clear that was not acceptable. It was Bush who waffled, NOT KERRY!!!
But it got spun. It got soudbited. It got manipulated.

Sure, Dems supported the war…just not the war that actually happened. The Dems supported the LEGAL use of military power to enforce article 1441 as it was agreed to in the U.N. security council.
…BY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, NO LESS!!!!

It appears that republicans are of the opinion that lies about oral sex in the White House are treason, while lies that cost countless lives of Americans and innocent civilians as well as a *few* combatants (relatively) are PATRIOTIC.


Posted by: RGF at September 26, 2006 3:43 PM
Comment #184053

rahdigly,

Let’s just take a look at the report shall we?
…dude?

Posted by: RGF at September 26, 2006 3:44 PM
Comment #184065

“You are talking a lot of trash.”

Which part is trash?

“Are you aware that the U.N. offered to send in peace keepers AFTER the war began?”

Yes I am.

“As far back as a couple of years ago? …and Bush turned them DOWN FLAT!”

Good.

“Think of the saved lives!”

You mean save American lives. While thats all fine and dandy with me, I thought you all were about “the world.”

“Think of the preserved moral authority and moral strength we would still have in the eyes of the WORLD! in fact,”

I prefer to worry about the morals of my own country.

“JUST THINK, PERIOD”

I will when you will.
Hmmm? Nope. Still as boring a game as it was in the third grade.

You still didn’t tell how the new Dem plan will differ from the current plan though.

“Sure, Dems supported the war…just not the war that actually happened.”

Of course not. If the aftermath would have been all peaches and cream, you then would be saying how it was all the Dems idea.

Posted by: kctim at September 26, 2006 4:15 PM
Comment #184077

Damn straight, Andre. Excellent article!

To the rest of the lefties and liberals, I just want to say three things:
1. We are never going convince the people who are somehow still supporting this administration. You know this, right?
2. If they were going to ever change their minds, then surely they would have done so by now — what with all the obvious failure.
3. Never feed a troll.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 26, 2006 5:03 PM
Comment #184082

Adrienne -

Absolutely… never feed a troll.

I have no issue debating issues, but when I get the sense that a person actually still supports our “terrorist-and-chief”, I can help but immediately discount their comments. IMO - this has nothing with being DEM or REP or IND… it has to do with blindly accepting lies and a pair of rose tinted glasses. If anyone is still attached to the present Administration, then their connection to the real world is so frail as to make an honest discussion futile.

Posted by: tony at September 26, 2006 5:12 PM
Comment #184092

Okay folks….this has just been released.. Now to see just how much of the declassified material has been kept in Dubya’s desk drawer….

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/060926_Declassified_NIE_Key_Judgments.pdf

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at September 26, 2006 5:33 PM
Comment #184107

Well Adrienne then why are you on this blog. I think your here to feed you own self loathing at being Neo-Con.

Posted by: Jeff at September 26, 2006 6:18 PM
Comment #184114

Jeff, I’m the opposite of a Neocon, I’m a liberal — thus, no self loathing.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 26, 2006 6:43 PM
Comment #184115
In other words, this is a pre-election hit job that cannot be refuted or confirmed because its based on a classified intelligence report.

Posted by: Pilsner at September 26, 2006 10:49 AM

Wow Pilsner those Republicans have you guys working overtime on this blog.

The only pre-election hit job is the ABC 6 hour non-interupted propaganda movie aired this month about 9/11 being all the Clinton Administrations Fault.

When Chavez called Bush the devil in his U.N. speech the Republicans were up in arms. Now you have a host of Republicans calling Hillary Clinton the Devil

Everything the Republicans are doing now is merely smearing every Democrat and every idol of the Democratic Party.

Bush is the Devil and there is no amount of propaganda or spin that is going to help the Republicans in November ‘06 or ‘08.

Posted by: Pat at September 26, 2006 6:47 PM
Comment #184119

Adrienne I AM SO SORRY I misread a post.

Posted by: Jeff at September 26, 2006 6:52 PM
Comment #184123

Leaking the NIE reminds me of the Pentagon Papers when they were first leaked(no internet at that time though), and the powers to be were quickly to dispell them as not accurate, yet they were. I have a feeling that the NIE is probably very accurate.

Now as being anti-Iraq and not agreeing with the handling or backing the President, one of freedoms that we American’s have is to disagree with what is happening. Now that Officers that have served in Iraq are saying that it is being handled wrong, who would you believe, someone that has spent more then a couple days there, or someone doing a PR trip to the safe areas. When one officer says something is wrong, maybe it is a personality conflict, but when more then one speaks out, you have to wonder maybe they are right.

Posted by: KT at September 26, 2006 7:06 PM
Comment #184194

Pilsner,

“What about the hundreds upon hundereds who support the administration?”
What about them? Where are they? No one is preventing them from speaking out. But, those military against what has been happing over there, have sure been threatened to “keep their mouths shut”.

*******
“All we know is what a few anonymous leakers have reportedly told to a far left Democratic-party news organ.” Leakers? For political gain? Naaaa, You mean like Valerie Plame? What is this country comming to?
*******

“Material which is in direct conflict with how others who have actually seen the report characterize it.” Well its all out now, so follow Sandras link:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/060926_Declassified_NIE_Key_Judgments.pdf

This report was compiled by 16 U.S. Intellegence agencies. (Not one, under Democratic Control). I especially like page 2 “The 4 Underlying Factors of the Spread of the Jihadist movement.”

1) Entrenched grievances, such as corruption, injustice, and fear of Western domanation leading to anger, humiliation, and a sense of powerlessness
(Our great wealth and how we use it to to create a great since of injustice - both at home and abroad)

2) The Iraq “jihad”
(For you ditto-heads out there, thats … us.)

3) The slow pace of real sustained economic, social, and political reforms in many Muslim majority nations
(Just like at home, where we are spending billions in the wrong direction and abandoning our own peoples needs, so too are we not supporting the needs of the peoples in the rest of the world in a fair and just mannor)

4) Anti-US sentiment among most Muslims — all of which jihadists exploit.
(Derived from an awareness of how we deal with the muslim world, and how we let their leaders exploit them - again, just like at home).

(Its like these 16 International Security agencies have been listening to “Air America”, imagine that! Maybe they now longer get Rush in DC?)

**********

“In other words, this is a pre-election hit job that cannot be refuted or confirmed because it’s based on a classified intelligence report.”

No, the “Pre-election hit job was that piece of lying garbage, on the Disney Channel. And, just maybe there is someone in the Government that actually cares more about the concerns of the “people” and doing the “right thing”, than in trying to protect their own job? In other words, maybe there is still someone up there on the “hill” with a conscience after all.

And, whats the matter with this report anyway? Dont you like a “free press”?

Posted by: PlayNice at September 26, 2006 10:37 PM
Comment #184213

Rahdigly,

“Also, you have to realize that if we pull out of any conflict (especially Iraq) then that will be a victory for the terrorists. “
No, if we pull out of Iraq, instead of using it as our own business opputrunity, to hold hostage to U.S. private contractors, then we can allow Iraq to rule herself, which was the basis for our pre-emptive attack in the first place, wasnt it???

*****
“let’s move on and win this (damn) war!!!”
Now how do you want to win? And, what exactly do you expect to “win” in Iraq anyway? The war on terror? You are hundreds of miles off course for that, my friend!

*****
“After 9/11, we looked at our threats differently; we weren’t going to wait for our threats to fully materialize. We weren’t going to sit around and wait for Saddam to make WMD’s and give it to the terrorists; or use it on Israel. It just wasn’t going to happen:”

You are so right. after 9/11 George Bush got us to see the “boogie man” everywhere and he needed someone to use as a scapegoat. He missed Osama at Tora Bora, and he gave up and went to do what his daddy should have done but didnt. Problem is, no terrorists were ever in Iraq. (Not until we arrived and opened the gate for them).
*****

“The fact is that recruiting for terrorism was at its’ highest point in the 90’s”

Republician Rule #1: Blame Clinton
*****

” we pulled out of Mogadishu and didn’t respond to the bombings. Bin Laden and his gang used that as a recruiting tool.”

And, now his recuiting tool is Bush. My gosh, look at who far we have come in what? 5 years-10 years?
*****

” If we pull out of Iraq, it will be just like pulling out of Mogadishu.”

No, it will be just like pulling out of Iraq. Like we promised to do. We will support Iraq from afar, and really allow them their independance. We will treat Iraq just like we treat Isreal. We dont sit inside Isreal and steal their natural resources, so what should we treat Iraq any differently? Do they have less rights, than Isreal, as a country? No. Do they need us to baby-sit them forever? No. Can they use their own oil to rebuild their own country like WE were promised, that they would? Yes.
*****

“We will make it worse if we pullout and retreat.”

My gosh man, HOW? How much bloody worse can it get? It is a screw job for us and for them. It is aiding and supporting our enemys, it is breaking our back financially, it is distroying our economy, it is dividing our people into waring camps that verbally boarders on the physical Iraqui civil war that is going on over there. It is allowing our President to write his own version of the Genieva Convention and operate world wide secret torture camps. We are on the virge of WWIII. And, you say our prudent retreat, to allow the Iraquis to rule over themselves democratically, would be WORSE!!!!!

My God, wake the heck up, and smell the stuff your shoveling.

Posted by: PlayNice at September 26, 2006 11:11 PM
Comment #184366

PlayNice,

The sheep have been told for so long we must “stay the course” and that pulling out of Iraq would be “bad” that they can’t see any other options.
They don’t see that staying the course is a tragic policy that should be debated. Other folks outside the Bush bubble should have input as to what course we should take. If the GOP will not do it then we must vote for folks who will.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at September 27, 2006 9:47 AM
Comment #184402

kctim,

You have me wrong.I’m not a blind supporter of the Democrats. I most assuredly AM a total opponent of EVERYTHING the republicons have done in recent years. They haven’t put a foot right since before Bush sr’s term.

you say:

“I prefer to worry about the morals of my own country.”

You’re joking, right?

You say: “Of course not. If the aftermath would have been all peaches and cream, you then would be saying how it was all the Dems idea.”

…and you said that in response to the explanation of how it was that the Dems supported action, but not THIS action.

You clearly still think that is partisan bickering. That is unfortuneate. My evolution from republican to democrat became complete when I realized how few republicans even tired to understand law much less appreciate or respect it. How you claim to be ‘conservative’ of this nation or anything it stands for and so disregard it very core and foundations?
No. I am a proud Democrat with the zeal of a CONVERT. The republicans are DANGEROUSLY deluded and misled. Your posts are illutrating that quite clearly.

I explained with detail how Congress was lied to by Bush. I illustrated for you the reality of the “waffler” attacks on Kerry in ‘04.

..and you have the complete inability to see or understand the real horror of the lies the republicans have spread and to assume partisan bickering on the part of THE DOMECRATS???!!!??? You have got to be kidding! Your messeges are thse of a blind republican apologist. A political shill. If that is true, why are even trying to have a dialogue? Is there any part of you willing to entertain the notion that what we are doing in Iraq is actually making things worse?

Posted by: RGF at September 27, 2006 11:45 AM
Comment #184421

RGF
Disagreeing with the left does not make somebody a Bush supporter or “republican apologist” by default.

“…and you said that in response to the explanation of how it was that the Dems supported action, but not THIS action”

Yes I did. If “THIS” action would have gone smoothly, which war never does, the left would be right on board proclaiming it was their ideas that did it.

“You clearly still think that is partisan bickering. That is unfortuneate.”

Yep. Much the same way I see Republicans trying to blame 9/11 on clinton as being nothing but partisan bickering.

“My evolution from republican to democrat became complete when I realized how few republicans even tired to understand law much less appreciate or respect it.”

Thats funny. My evolution from Democrat to free thinking American became complete when I realized those very same things of the Dem/liberal party.
Not understanding, appreciating or respecting law isn’t what pisses the extremes off, its when people do those things contrary to ones beliefs that pisses them off.
IF Dems really understood, appreciated and respected law, as you say they do, then they would not have been kicked to the curb by the people.

“How you claim to be ‘conservative’ of this nation or anything it stands for and so disregard it very core and foundations?”

Thats just it, I believe in ALL of our rights and the Constitution which created that core and which its foundations were built upon.
I do not pick and choose which ones I support based on my personal opinions. That is how I can be pissed off at Bush for the wiretaps AND be pissed off at clinton for his anti-gun crap. Thats how I can be pissed off at Bush for fighting a country which did not threaten the US and going into Iraq AND be pissed off at clinton for fighting an enemy which did not threaten the US and going into Bosnia.

“No. I am a proud Democrat with the zeal of a CONVERT.”

And I’m a proud American with the zeal of an American.

“The republicans are DANGEROUSLY deluded and misled. Your posts are illutrating that quite clearly.”

If I’m not a Republican, then how am I illustrating that?

“I explained with detail how Congress was lied to by Bush. I illustrated for you the reality of the “waffler” attacks on Kerry in ‘04.”

Yes, I’ve heard them all before and I have the same opinion of them. The Reps and Dems spin things to make their own side look good.

”..and you have the complete inability to see or understand the real horror of the lies the republicans have spread and to assume partisan bickering on the part of THE DOMECRATS???!!!???”

Not really. I see the lies by the Republicans, I just choose to also see the Dem lies too. But, since the liberals now control the Dem party, I believe the current Dem party is more of a threat to our country, our Constitution, our freedoms and our way of life.

“You have got to be kidding! Your messeges are thse of a blind republican apologist.”

Ok, then you should have no problem pointing out where I have apologized for this administration, right?
Requiring facts, not opinions and looking at the WHOLE picture, does not mean I support either side.

“A political shill.”

Yeah, an saying the Dems are the only hope to fix Iraq and our country, isn’t being a “political shill” is it. ROTFLMAO

“If that is true, why are even trying to have a dialogue?”

Because I enjoy ALL opinions and learning new things? If I wanted to listen to cheerleaders, I would go to DU or turn on my TV.

“Is there any part of you willing to entertain the notion that what we are doing in Iraq is actually making things worse?”

When did I say I thought differently? When have I stated one way or another?

I asked how can the left say “stay the course” is wrong when you all don’t even know what the course is.
Is that what makes me a Republican apologist huh? or is it because I won’t take the lefts “word” on everything and blindly follow and agree with everything you say?

Posted by: kctim at September 27, 2006 12:52 PM
Comment #184433

You know if everyone of you would stop your partisan poltical fighting and think things out you’d see and understand what the plan is in regards to this war. It is the same plan that is used in every war that can be clearly seen as won or lost. You can formulate it from Castro’s winning of Cuba. You can formulate it from the loss in Viet Nam. You can formulate it when we won WWII over Germany and Japan. The same formula was used in the communist takeover in China. All you need to do is think.

As for the leaking of the NIE some questions need to be answered in regards to it and this columnist put those questions very well if one actually seeks to know the facts. Robert Kagen of the Washington Post wrote a very provacative column.

Posted by: The Griper at September 27, 2006 1:46 PM
Comment #184434

kctim,

You say: “Yeah, an saying the Dems are the only hope to fix Iraq and our country, isn’t being a “political shill” is it. ROTFLMAO”

That is the *messege* of sick heart. This is no laughing matter.

I NEVER said the Democrats were the only hope to fix the problem. However, let us not stray from the thread: The republicans are trying to sell us on “staying the course” …which apparently means not recognizing and learning from mistakes. We are to blindly blunder on following a course that is actually making things exponentially worse than before we began. Does that make sense to you at all? If it does, you have perhaps been rolling around on the floor too long laughing about our tragic loss of life in Iraq.

You say: “I asked how can the left say “stay the course” is wrong when you all don’t even know what the course is.
Is that what makes me a Republican apologist huh? or is it because I won’t take the lefts “word” on everything and blindly follow and agree with everything you say?”

I gave you examples and explanations. You claim to have shifted away from the Democrats because you see the Democrats as failing to respect and understand American Law, yet, unlike me, you offer no examples.

All of us on the left on this blog, and in politics, have been adamant about the course we would like to see. We would end unilateral American military presence in Iraq. We should involve the U.N. …as they offered to do and this administration turned down. That is not exactly ‘cut-and-run’ but then neither is Kerry a waffler! Spin. The cost in American lives, in moral authority in the eyes of the world and in its effects on our own domestic economic health would be dramatically improved, by sharing the burden with the U.N. We would be able to show the World, including the Islamic World, that this is a conflict between the civilized world at large and a few religious extremists with a warped view things. That would be a great undermining image to offset the one of American Empire being used today to such success in recruitment among the The Taliban and others. The left has been screaming this strategy from the beginning, but I guess you too much of a ‘free American’ to have even noticed. That is why it was possible to mis-construe Kerry’s comments into “waffling” in ‘04. Any effort to point this out to those on the right resulted in mindless chanting of: “flip-flop-flip-flop” over and over again until anyone of intelligence left the vecinity of the chanters!

Kerry only wanted to support the war if it was going to be pursued in a way that abided by American and international law as we agreed to do in Article 1441 and as Bush had sold the Sentate on thereafter.

I would never ask anybody to blindly agree with ANYTHING I say. If you do not know it to be true, search it out. Google, read, investigate. It’s out there in manny forms and formats. I have not posted anything here that wasn’t either backed up by myself or readily verifiable by anyone reading it. If you believe I have gotten something wrong, find the evidence to call me on it. I’ll save you some effort - you never will! …but I hope you’ll try.


Posted by: RGF at September 27, 2006 1:50 PM
Comment #184439

I screwed up the link, sorry about that. it is Robert Kagen

Posted by: The Griper at September 27, 2006 2:00 PM
Comment #184447

Thanks for the link.
I hope we get these questions answered and SOON.

Posted by: RGF at September 27, 2006 2:21 PM
Comment #184499

RG
“I gave you examples and explanations. You claim to have shifted away from the Democrats because you see the Democrats as failing to respect and understand American Law, yet, unlike me, you offer no examples”

And you claim to have shifted away from the Republicans for the same reasons.
What kind of examples are you looking for? Gun laws? Personal rights? Property rights? corruption etc… or do you wish to stay on topic?

In keeping with the topic, I have no problem in pointing out what Bush has done. I am against the wiretaps and I believe going into Iraq was a mistake.
Examples of how the Dems also have no respect for our law and Constitution?
Illegal wars are a good start. Both got the US involved in a war with an enemy that did not threaten us.
Renditioning? Guess what, it did not begin under Bush II.
Not following through to get the terrorists who attacked us. Both parties are to blame for that.
Ignoring the military. Neither party really fights for us, its just that the Reps sometimes try. I got out of the military in 96 for some of the very same reasons the left says begun under Bush.

As far as kerry is concerned, I really don’t care.
I know the story and from I have read, neither of them really knew what the hell they were talking about when talking about their view on support for the war.
IMO, voting for the war and then saying it didn’t go the way they wanted, is silly. You have a different view which matches your political leanings.

“I would never ask anybody to blindly agree with ANYTHING I say”

You are correct, I should not have used the word “you” when I was refering to the hard lefts mindset. Nothing personal was meant.

Posted by: kctim at September 27, 2006 4:30 PM
Comment #184524

Posted by: kctim at September 27, 2006 12:52 PM
Posted to RGF:

Kctim,

1) “Yes I did. If THIS action would have gone smoothly, which war never does, the left would be right on board proclaiming it was their ideas that did it.”

NO, the “left” would not. See, we were, in a “war” in Afganistan, and we “cut and run” to go into Iraq. We left Afganistan, which WAS the real war on “terror” or, i.e. Osama Ben Lauden, and went to a different country, (one that never attacked us, one that was no threat, one that was not ingaged in “terrorism”, or had any terrorist ties), and we started a war there. I do not know any “leftie” in their right mind, that would have approved THAT, no matter how Iraq goes, win or loose. And, to be LIED to, to get the ball rolling, to get the invasion started in Iraq? I do not know of any “leftie” that would approve a war, based on LIES, either —- no matter how that war goes, win or loose!!!

2) “IF Dems really understood, appreciated and respected law, as you say they do, then they would not have been kicked to the curb by the people.”

Dems were kicked to the curb because of partisian rettoric coming from a vicious Republician lead outing of the President of the United States. They showed no respected for the person or the office. But now, let one liberal say one thing about this administrations policies, and we are “Bush Bashers” that need not be listened to, or we are “Anti-Americans”; or we are “Supporting the Terrorists”; or we are “Communists”.

Well, lets get the record straight, right now. We are Americans too. We have the right to engage in free speech too. We deserve a voice in this governemnt too. And, we also have a right to vote, AND WE RETAIN OUR RIGHT THAT OUR VOTE SHOULD COUNT, TOOO!

3) “Not really. I see the lies by the Republicans, I just choose to also see the Dem lies too. But, since the liberals now control the Dem party, I believe the current Dem party is more of a threat to our country, our Constitution, our freedoms and our way of life.”

Then you are just plain wrong.

The Executive Branch - Controled by Repbulicians

The Legislative Branch - Controled by Republicians

The Judicial Branch - Controled by Republicians

If you are afraid of Democrats, with all branches of governemnt controlled and managed by Republician hands? Then you need a brain transplant. And,… What in the world could any Democrat, that would get power in this government, in the future, do to you personally, that would upset this perfect system, that you now enjoy????? How is this going to make things worse? How is this going to mess up things even MORE. For you, for your family, and for other Americans?

4) “Yeah, an saying the Dems are the only hope to fix Iraq and our country, isn’t being a “political shill” is it. ROTFLMAO”

NO. No, its not. Saying that Dems are the only hope to fix Iraq is a reality, not a partisian statement at all. The reason is that the Republicians have had 4 years to watch Iraq go down hill. They have had 4 years to speak up. They have had 4 years to put together a positive plan of 1) occupation, 2) reconstruction, and develope an 3) exit stragety. They have done none of these things. They have followed GW off a peverbial cliff like the lemmings that they are. Now, they are scurrying like rats trying to get out of GWs light. Just notice the ads in the next month.

VOTE FOR —-JOE BLOW (DEMOCRAT)

or

VOTE FOR — JOE BLOW (we arent saying what he is)……(Republician, obviously)

“… how can the left say “stay the course” is wrong when you all don’t even know what the course is?”

A. Because “stay the course” hasnt worked in 4 years.

B. Because “stay the course” is not working now, and is unlikely to work in the future.

C. Because “stay the course” is creating more terroriest than it is preventing.

D. Because “staying the course” means at least 2-3 more disasterous years in Iraq at best; and, an even more escculated, more disasterous future in Iraq, whos result may mean dier world wide consequences, at worse.

Posted by: PlayNice at September 27, 2006 5:27 PM
Comment #184591

Playnice
“NO, the “left” would not. See, we were, in a “war” in Afganistan, and we “cut and run” to go into Iraq.”

IMO, we did not “cut and run” from Afghanistan. Sure I would love OBL to be dead, but he is a hard man to catch. He proved that throughout the 90’s and current.

“I do not know any “leftie” in their right mind, that would have approved THAT, no matter how Iraq goes, win or loose.”

Then I’m afraid you don’t know politics that well. Partisans and politicians will always take the road that makes them look best and blame the other side for all failures.

“Dems were kicked to the curb because of partisian rettoric coming from a vicious Republician lead outing of the President of the United States.”

They were kicked to the curb by the voters who did not agree with their view of the world or the leftist agenda.
But don’t worry, I feel that it cyclical and the lefts turn is coming soon.

“But now, let one liberal say one thing about this administrations policies, and we are “Bush Bashers” that need not be listened to, or we are “Anti-Americans”; or we are “Supporting the Terrorists”; or we are “Communists”.”

And those who support Bush, are called nazi’s, wingnuts and brainwashed. Whats your point?

“We have the right to engage in free speech too.”

And nobody is stopping you from doing so.

“We deserve a voice in this governemnt too.”

The left has a voice, just turn on the TV sometime.

“If you are afraid of Democrats, with all branches of governemnt controlled and managed by Republician hands? Then you need a brain transplant.”

What? I said I believe the Democrats would be worse than the Republicans, not much, but still worse. When they get back in power.

“And,… What in the world could any Democrat, that would get power in this government, in the future, do to you personally, that would upset this perfect system, that you now enjoy?????”

They same thing they did when they were in power. They have already shown what they will do. The people voted them out for it.

“How is this going to make things worse? How is this going to mess up things even MORE. For you, for your family, and for other Americans?”

Well, I enjoy the personal freedoms I have left. Higher taxes will hurt my family and other Americans. I don’t agree with treating terrorism as a crime. Higher taxes concern me. More unnecessary taxes concern me. My Rights.
Oh, and did I mention taxes?

“NO. No, its not. Saying that Dems are the only hope to fix Iraq is a reality, not a partisian statement at all.”

Then please tell us all how the Dem plan will differ from the plan now. Other than giving up to the UN, I really don’t think there will be all that much of a difference.

“The reason is that the Republicians have had 4 years to watch Iraq go down hill.”

Valid point.

“They have had 4 years to speak up.”

I have heard their briefings.

“They have had 4 years to put together a positive plan of 1) occupation, 2) reconstruction, and develope an 3) exit stragety. They have done none of these things.”

Actually, post war went differntly than they had hoped and they messed up some on that didnt they. But to think that there is no working plan for reconstruction and exit is plain silly and totally ignoring current events.

“They have followed GW off a peverbial cliff like the lemmings that they are. Now, they are scurrying like rats trying to get out of GWs light. Just notice the ads in the next month.”

It will be an interesting election year won’t it.

“VOTE FOR —-JOE BLOW (DEMOCRAT)”
(We have no idea where he stands on an issue but at least he’s not Bush) (Democrat obviously)

or

“VOTE FOR — JOE BLOW (we arent saying what he is)……(Republician, obviously)”

Good one.

“A. Because “stay the course” hasnt worked in 4 years.”
B. Because “stay the course” is not working now, and is unlikely to work in the future.”

Well, if it hasn’t worked and is unlikely to ever work, shouldn’t you at least know what the course is so that you don’t make the same mistakes?
What is the course?

“C. Because “stay the course” is creating more terroriest than it is preventing.”

That is because we are fighting back and not letting them walk all over us anymore. Rather than just sitting back and letting them hurt us anytime they wanted, we pushed back and that has brought the terrorists to the forefront.

“D. Because “staying the course” means at least 2-3 more disasterous years in Iraq at best; and, an even more escculated, more disasterous future in Iraq, whos result may mean dier world wide consequences, at worse.”

We are in Iraq, probably for more than 2 or 3 years, no matter who the President is. If it esculates, it won’t matter who the President is and the only way is could be more disasterous would be if we gave up.

We both have our own opinions Playnice. You believe all will be fine if Dems get back in power.
I believe past experiences have shown that I don’t want the liberal Dems controlling our country again. Its not good for her.
But, I also believe the Republicans haven’t faired to much better, so I can only wait and see what happens.
1- The liberal Dems win, we either turn our troops over to the UN again or they will keep on the same “course” that the left complains about now but will agree with then, I get a pay cut, I loose more of my rights and the militia’s increase 100% again.
OR
2- The Republicans win, we stay the course, I loose some more of my rights and the liberals get to scream “facism,” “nazi” and blame the weather on the Republicans for 4 more years.

Yes, it will be a very interesting election cycle.

Posted by: kctim at September 27, 2006 10:05 PM
Comment #184641

PlayNice,
Never change, just keep telling it.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 28, 2006 12:32 AM
Comment #184700

Kctim:

“IMO, we did not “cut and run” form Afghanistan.”

In my book we did. We stopped one war to start another. Another with less crediability than the one we were in. One that instead of making terrorism better, made it worse. In my opinion that is what happened. And, at least 60% of America seams to agree with me, according to the poles.

“Then I’m afraid you don’t know politics that well. Partisans and politicians will always take the road that makes them look best and blame the other side for all failures.”

Im afraid that you do not know politics very well. Politicians dont run this country we do. “We the people in order to form a more perfect union, do establish…” etc etc. The people of this country run this country. And, when more of us wake up to that fact, the old dog politician like the ones of great supply, in the current Republician Party, will be quietly - put out to pasture!

“Dems were kicked to the curb by the voters who did not agree with their view of the world or the leftist agenda.”

No, again you are completely wrong. The voters were sold a bill of goods about a stain on a dress. Since then they have had time to re-think their position. And, they realise that 40 million and 6 years of the dirtiest most nasty rancor by the Republician party against a President of the United States just to obtain power, could never be balanced by this administration which will go down as the most failed Administration in history. Clinton lied, and no one died. What is Bushs death toll, TODAY?

“The left has a voice, just turn on the TV sometime.”

That old dead crow is getting tired. You need to put it out to roost. Just as Bush said that, “Oceans do not protect us from terrorism”, so too do Oceans not protect us from enlightenment. With a real free press in England, they are getting rid of their resident lier. When our press decides to tell the truth and not what they have to say in order to have an “in” with this Administration, Bushs rateings will go from 37% approval to 22% like it should be. England has told the truth about Bush and Tonys lies in their press, and Tony is leaving at the end of the year. If our countrys press was as untainted as the BBC, our resident lier would be out of work too. (see Downing Street . org)

When asked why you were so afraid of Dems, what they would do to your life that would make it so terriable if they go back into power, you said:

“Well, I enjoy the personal freedoms I have left. Higher taxes will hurt my family and other Americans. I don’t agree with treating terrorism as a crime. Higher taxes concern me. More unnecessary taxes concern me. My Rights.
Oh, and did I mention taxes?”

Oh, so lying to Americans, thats ok. Starting wars with countries that never attacked you, is ok. Outing CIA agents who want to expose your lies about going to war, is ok. Gutting FEMA, thats ok, and leaving New Oleans to drown thats ok, too. And, failing to get OBL thats ok, even though you got great world wide support when you promised to. And cutting and running in Afganistan, thats ok too. Making private deals with oil companies for them to make record profits, thats ok, with you. Condi shopping for shoes while people in New Orleans die, thats ok, too. Killing thousands of Americans in Iraq and hundreds of thousands of Iraquis, thats just fine. Making everything secret so that this Administration doesnt have to report accurate facts of deaths or anything of public interest is ok, because you agree all thing should be kept from the public in a time of war, reguardless that it is of the presidents making. This being the most secretive Administration in history is ok, with you. Lies and cover ups are ok, too. Violating the Genieva convention and then trying to create 11th hour laws to cover your azz is ok, too. Illegal wire taps, spying, a trail of lies and cover ups….hey,,,,ITS ALL GOOD, WITH YOU!

JUST SO LONG AS KCTIM, DOESNT GET HIS TAXES RAISED LORD,,,,,ITS ALL GOOD !!!

(And, of course we all know the old red herring…..”Dems will raise YOUR taxes”. Well, yes, IF YOU MAKE OVER 200,000.00 PER YEAR!)

(Pressed for time…..Continued, later).

Posted by: PlayNice at September 28, 2006 10:04 AM
Comment #184759

I love this Play!
“In my book we did. We stopped one war to start another.”

Yes, in YOUR book. Our troops are still in Afghanistan my friend and they are not just sitting around picking their noses.

“Another with less crediability than the one we were in.”

I can agree with that part.

“One that instead of making terrorism better, made it worse.”

Or, its just drawn the others out. Hidden terrorist or visible terrorist, which would you prefer to be at war with?

“In my opinion that is what happened.”

Yes, your opinion.

“And, at least 60% of America seams to agree with me, according to the poles.”

Thats fine. Maybe the left will win in the next election then and since I think its cyclical, you probably will.

“Im afraid that you do not know politics very well.”

Never claimed too. But I do know that if things are going your way, you love it and embrace it and if they arent going your way, you distance yourself from it.

“And, when more of us wake up to that fact, the old dog politician like the ones of great supply, in the current Republician Party, will be quietly - put out to pasture!”

You mean, when more of the people see things how YOU think they are, then the people will wake up. Millions of others believe it is YOU who needs to wake up.

“No, again you are completely wrong.”

I am? Who controls the three levels of govt?

“The voters were sold a bill of goods about a stain on a dress.”

clinton did not run in 2000 or 2004.

“Since then they have had time to re-think their position.”

Thats fine. And if they agree with the Dems agenda this time, they will vote for them.

“And, they realise that 40 million and 6 years of the dirtiest most nasty rancor by the Republician party against a President of the United States just to obtain power, could never be balanced by this administration which will go down as the most failed Administration in history.”

Big deal. The people realized all of that in 2000 and voted the left out.

“Clinton lied, and no one died. What is Bushs death toll, TODAY?”

Really? How many Bosnians died?

“That old dead crow is getting tired. You need to put it out to roost.”

Ah, thats right. The ONLY political media is FOX. Weird how you think the media you disagree with are all “neo-con” hacks but yet the media you agree with are all “fair and balanced.”
Add up all the media you like and dislike and let me know the tally.

“England has told the truth about Bush and Tonys lies in their press,”

The truth as YOU see it.

“and Tony is leaving at the end of the year.”

So.

“If our countrys press was as untainted as the BBC, our resident lier would be out of work too”

Yeah, who wants to see any of the hard work our troops do and the progess they make.
Tainted indeed.

“Oh, so lying to Americans, thats ok”

Did I say it was? Um, nope.

“Starting wars with countries that never attacked you, is ok.”

It was in 95, why is it different in 2003?

“Gutting FEMA, thats ok”

Yep.

“and leaving New Oleans to drown thats ok, too.”

Do you have any idea how fema works? New Orleans left New Orleans to drown.

“And, failing to get OBL thats ok, even though you got great world wide support when you promised to.”

Yes it is, he is a tough mother to get, even with world wide support. Just ask clinton.

“And cutting and running in Afganistan, thats ok too”

Our views differ on that. Since our troops are still there fighting terrorists, I don’t consider it as a lost.

“Making private deals with oil companies for them to make record profits, thats ok, with you.”

Provide the proof and lets end it then.

“Condi shopping for shoes while people in New Orleans die, thats ok, too”

Not even worth a reply.

“Killing thousands of Americans in Iraq and hundreds of thousands of Iraquis, thats just fine.”

No worse than killing Americans in America and killing Bosnian civilians.

“This being the most secretive Administration in history is ok, with you.”

Nope.

“Lies and cover ups are ok, too”

Not at all. In fact, its bothered since, oh, about 1994.


“Violating the Genieva convention and then trying to create 11th hour laws to cover your azz is ok, too.”

This again is how YOU view it. My view is different. IF the people agree with your view, maybe they will vote for you.

“Illegal wire taps, spying, a trail of lies and cover ups….hey,,,,ITS ALL GOOD, WITH YOU!”

Finally, a real concern rather than ones based on theory and fear.
YES, they bother me.

“(And, of course we all know the old red herring…..”Dems will raise YOUR taxes”. Well, yes, IF YOU MAKE OVER 200,000.00 PER YEAR!)”

Yes, we differ on taxes too. I’m for equal and fair taxes for all and you are for punishing success and rewarding nothing.
Just another thing we will have to agree to disagree on.

Posted by: kctim at September 28, 2006 1:44 PM
Comment #185109

Far too much of the dialogue in this thread and in watchblog…and every other blog I have seen just runs to FLAME WARS and FLAME BAITING.

kctim, you are a master flame baiter. You have no interest, it seems in dialogue. Your last response to me seems to be rather obvious flame baiting. Claiming the Dems somehow have not supported or equally guilty of undermining various constituional rights? It’s laughable. But it is even more obviously, FLAME BAITING.

I have come to the conclusion that these blogs are pointless. They do not represent dialogue or discussion. They are, at best, just venting. Even the articles that many of the posters choose to post are constructed or picked based on the jibes or venom or contrariness they contain.

This is a waste of time effort and energy. It is utter foolishness. All that matters is this November. These flame wars have no bearing on this November at all.

Posted by: RGF at September 29, 2006 1:41 PM
Comment #185118

RGF
“kctim, you are a master flame baiter. You have no interest, it seems in dialogue.”

No, I don’t agree with your opinion on the matter, so it is easier for you start the name-calling than it is to accept the facts.

“Your last response to me seems to be rather obvious flame baiting. Claiming the Dems somehow have not supported or equally guilty of undermining various constituional rights? It’s laughable. But it is even more obviously, FLAME BAITING.”

Then tell me:
Which party is against the 2nd Amendment?
Which party advocates taking money from one person to support the beliefs of others?
Which party believes telling people where, where not they can smoke?
Which party believes restricting personal rights because they know better than the individuals themselves?
Which party, when their “guy” was President, supported going to war with an enemy that did not pose a threat the US?

On and on we could go RGF and you would not like it. Why? Because it is all the truth and it shows that neither party, in their current state, are good for this country.

So, if the truth is “flame baiting,” then yes, I am guilty. But as long as people wish to act like one side is any better than the other, I will keep on harping about wanting facts and beieving everybody should play by the same set of rules.
If you guys on the left want your opinions to based on nothing but cheerleading drivel, then go to DU. Because, for now anyways, this site still offers something you will never get from any DU site: knowledge!

Posted by: kctim at September 29, 2006 2:31 PM
Comment #185168

RGF,

Except the UN did not approve the action in Bosnia. Aren’t we bound by their rules as well?

And 1441 did give us the legal right to re-engage the 1991 Gulf War, which we did. Iraq was in material breach of 1441 as Blix had to agree during his presentation to the UN, so we took action to finally put that long soap opera to bed. If it was ok for Clinton to make it federal law to push for regieme change in Iraq and his wife and other dems to agree that our inability to determine the final resolution of the WMD we knew Iraq had was a danger to the world, including the US, why can’t you accept that?

Posted by: Rhinehold at September 29, 2006 5:09 PM
Comment #185170

RG
You really don’t understand anything non-partisan do you.
Our rights are not “irrelevent” as you say. ALL of our rights are sacred and should be fought tooth and nail for.
YOU don’t care about the 2nd and others don’t care about the 4th. Sad, really really sad.
Do you honestly not see how they are related? You think its ok to pervert and take away 2nd Amendment rights because you think it will keep people from dying and so that you feel safer.
Others think its ok to pervert and take away 4th Amendment rights because they believe it will keep people from dying and it will make them safer.
How can one be right but the other be wrong? It can’t!

Whats more effective, 50 million people fighting only for the rights they agree with
OR
300 million people fighting for ALL of our rights?

United we stand, divided we fall and we have fallen hard.

And whats with the religious stuff? You seem to think that I disagree with keeping the church out of our schools or that I would care what Jesus thought of people. I don’t.

Bosnia was not a threat to the US and IMO, neither was Iraq. To me, both choices were wrong.
The fact that you attempt to defend Bosnia in much the same way people defend Iraq, speaks volumes though.

So, when will I get it RG? I already have. And the answer does not lie with the Democrats or the Republicans. The answer lies with the American people and whether or not they are willing to respect ALL or our rights and if they are willing to fight together to keep ALL of them.

How about you RGF?
Are YOU willing to fight for ALL of your rights? Or are you content in only fighting for the rights that matter to you and to hell with the rights other people value?

Posted by: kctim at September 29, 2006 5:14 PM
Comment #185689

rhinehold,

In Bosnia, there was no equavalent to article 1441 to be violated. Bosnia was a NATO issue. The difference between Iraq and Bosnia is that on the one hand we acted in violation of both American and Intenational law, while on the other we acted in compliance with our treaty obligations under NATO. In other words, Clinton respected law, while Bush violated it.

kctim,

you say: “Bosnia was not a threat to the US and IMO, neither was Iraq. To me, both choices were wrong.”

…which makes your lack of understanding of the legal issue rather starkly obvious.

Posted by: RGF at October 2, 2006 10:47 AM
Comment #185701

kctim,

you keep saying the issue is about fighting for ALL our rights. That is not an issue with me. But, it occurs to me, What the heck are you talking about?

The reason for checks and balances in this country is so that we may all be our own representatives and advocates for our own interests. That is Democracy. We have a constition that serves to prevent the tyranny of the majority and allows for certain recognized limitations on power and redress of grievences.

The Christian Coalition is never going to advocate for the rights of gay people for any reason to do anything. The klan is not going to advocate for minority rights. The NAACP is not going to advocate for the right of free speach and assembly for the klan. That’s the way it is. We can certainly all agree that free speach and assembly are essential to our deomcracy, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t have our interest groups.

Besides, you haven’t offered any examples of what the heck you are talking about with this “What’s better, 50 million fighting for some rights or 300 million for all our rights” sillyness. It just sounds like forced contrariness on your part. You claim to be disagreeing with both parties, but the Democrats have nothing but a GOOD track record to show and the republicans a horrific one. That doesn’t mean the Democrats are saints or that all the republicans are fools. It just means that currently, the balance of benefit to this country is in Democrats. I have been critical of Democrats before and I will be again. Right now, we either make the switch to throw power in the direction of the Democrats, or we remain desparately failed policy-status quo and all that threatens. That both is and is not partisan. It simply is what it is. For what ever reason, their are not enough republicans standing up for the right thing against this administration. That means we cannot expect to do things the right way (stop the illegal wire-taps and violations of search and seizure and privacy and due process violations, etc. etc.) unless we remove the ‘yes men’ republicans who are obstacles to doing what is right. That’s partisan, true, but primarily it is simply a practical truth.

Posted by: RGF at October 2, 2006 11:44 AM
Comment #185823

RGF
“you keep saying the issue is about fighting for ALL our rights. That is not an issue with me.”

But it is for me! I respect and honor our Constitution, even the parts that really dont pertain to my line of beliefs.

“But, it occurs to me, What the heck are you talking about?”

The United States of America and our Constitution, in its entirety.

“The reason for checks and balances in this country is so that we may all be our own representatives and advocates for our own interests. That is Democracy.”

Hmmm, we are a Constitutional Republic, no?

“The Christian Coalition is never going to advocate for the rights of gay people for any reason to do anything.”

Nope. But those who respect the Constitution will.

“The klan is not going to advocate for minority rights.”

Nope. But those who respect the Constitution will.

“The NAACP is not going to advocate for the right of free speach and assembly for the klan.”

Nope. But those who respect the Constitution will.

“That’s the way it is. We can certainly all agree that free speach and assembly are essential to our deomcracy, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t have our interest groups.”

And think how much smoother everything would run if our “interest group” was the Constitution.

“Besides, you haven’t offered any examples of what the heck you are talking about with this “What’s better, 50 million fighting for some rights or 300 million for all our rights” sillyness.”

Sillyness?
Which would be more effective? 50 million people vs. the govt or 300 million people vs the govt?

“You claim to be disagreeing with both parties, but the Democrats have nothing but a GOOD track record to show and the republicans a horrific one.”

To the liberals, that is true. The opposite is true with Republicans.
Why do you feel as if your side is more in the right than the other side?

“That doesn’t mean the Democrats are saints or that all the republicans are fools. It just means that currently, the balance of benefit to this country is in Democrats.”

First, get rid of the liberals and get real Democrats and I may actually believe there could be some truth in what you say.
Second, the only “benefit” to this country lies with the people. Until they realize that they are at war with their own govt, and not with each other, nothing will change.

“I have been critical of Democrats before and I will be again. Right now, we either make the switch to throw power in the direction of the Democrats, or we remain desparately failed policy-status quo and all that threatens.”

OR, we keep Republicans in power and marginalize the liberal threat to our Constitution.
Again, when you start allowing personal beliefs get in the way of honoring the WHOLE Constitution, rights are taken from us.
For every liberal who doesn’t care about the 2nd Amendment, there is a Conservative who is willing to give up some their 4th to feel more secure. Should we keep on giving up on the rights the party in power doesn’t care as much about or should we care about ALL of our rights?

“That both is and is not partisan. It simply is what it is.”

It is one hundred percent partisan blindness.

“For what ever reason, their are not enough republicans standing up for the right thing against this administration.”

Review your history and look at just how many Dems stood up to clinton. Its all about the party.

“That means we cannot expect to do things the right way (stop the illegal wire-taps and violations of search and seizure and privacy and due process violations, etc. etc.) unless we remove the ‘yes men’ republicans who are obstacles to doing what is right. That’s partisan, true, but primarily it is simply a practical truth.”

Of course its a practical truth, but what you fail to recognize is that it goes both ways.

You would rather be partisan and blind so that you can falsely feel better when the liberals get back in power.
Rather than fight for freedom of choice for all, you would rather worry only about illegal wiretaps.
Rather than fight for your 2nd Amendment rights, you would rather fight only for your 4th Amendment rights.
Rather than rise up and fight against your govt torturing and murdering innocent American men, women and children, you would rather fight for the rights of those who we are at war with.
So on and so on.

The lefts agenda is no better than the rights agenda, not even close.
To act like it is totally disrespects the only agenda that has proven to work; the US Constitution.

Posted by: kctim at October 2, 2006 11:46 PM
Comment #185868

You are intentionally stilting and mis-interpreting in order to flame-bait.

I will NOT be suckered into any more of this rediculous nonesense.

I’m gone and only November will tell the tale.

Posted by: RGF at October 3, 2006 9:58 AM
Comment #185877

Yeah, working together as Americans is nothing but a bunch of “ridiculous nonsense” and “flame-baiting” isn’t it.

Oh well. Your unwillingness to work with your fellow Americans and your insistence that any who disagree with your partisan views are totally wrong and are only “flame-baiting” when they express views contrary to yours, show exactly why nothing will change.
Sad.

Posted by: kctim at October 3, 2006 10:44 AM
Comment #185947

Nope. But those who respect the Constitution will.

Unfortunetly those in power right now do not.

Posted by: steph at October 3, 2006 4:44 PM
Comment #186004

Maybe both parties need to take a look and understand this meaning when it comes to the Iraq war and the way this country is acting on both sides. What a shame if our founding fathers could see such bitterness and playing the gotcha game… I have a novel Idea lets pass a law that 1/3 of all senate and house seats must be Independent in nature.. I bet we could get done what is important to the people not the parties

“The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be, wrong. God cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time. In the present civil war it is quite possible that God’s purpose is something different from the purpose of either party - and yet the human instrumentalities, working just as they do, are of the best adaptation to effect His purpose.” The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, “Meditation on the Divine Will” (September 2, 1862?), pp. 403-404.

Posted by: Jeff S at October 3, 2006 8:45 PM
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