September 23, 2006
Win-Win-Lose The Constitution
It is being called a “compromise,” but that seems to be in name only. The “rebellion” by key Senate Republicans against Bush’s wishes for constitutional right to torture, hold prisoners without charges or access to courts, approve military tribunals and the use of “secret” and hearsay evidence, has essentially survived in tact.
The only compromise seems to be that it is being called one. It gives McCain, Warner, and Graham a nice political out, and casts a light of "reasonableness" for Bush. Beyond that it is a disaster - and it is likely to become law.
The "compromise" bills moved forward on September 22, 2006 are all titled the "Military Commissions Act of 2006":
H.R. 6054 "introduced by Mr. HUNTER (for himself, Mr. BOEHNER, Mr. SENSENBRENNER, Mr. CALVERT, Mrs. MILLER of Michigan, Mr. MILLER of Florida, Mr. SHUSTER, Mr. FRANKS of Arizona, Mr. WILSON of South Carolina, Mr. SAXTON, Mr. PORTER, Mr. KLINE, Mr. HEFLEY, Mr. HAYES, Mr. SWEENEY, Mr. CHOCOLA, and Mr. LOBIONDO)" (Bill Summary Status)
S. 3929 introduced by McConnell and Frist (Bill Summary Status)
and S. 3930 introduced by McConnell, Frist, and Warner. (Bill Summary Status)
Notes: I am assuming that S. 3930 supersedes S. 3929 as Warner is signed onto the former but not the latter. If the links to any of the above legislative documents do not work, you can access them through Thomas - Library of Congress, and search on the bill number or title.
See "Summarization of pertinent aspects of S. 3930" at then end of this article for specifics.
The proposed legislation pretty much gives the White House what they wanted in terms of "interrogation" issues, legality of detainee status, abridging the Geneva Conventions, utilizing coerced testimony and secret evidence, and placing all of this outside the bounds of review by the Supreme Court (see Sec. 3 Subchapter IV below).
According to analysts, for example Adam Liptak in the NY Times:
"It would impose new legal standards that it forbids the courts to enforce.It would guarantee terrorist masterminds charged with war crimes an array of procedural protections. But it would bar hundreds of minor figures and people who say they are innocent bystanders from access to the courts to challenge their potentially lifelong detentions."
Caroline Fredrickson of the ACLU is quoted in a press release as stating:
"This is a compromise of America's commitment to the rule of law. The proposal would make the core protections of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions irrelevant and unenforceable. It deliberately provides a 'get out of jail free card' to the administration's top torture officials, and backdates that card nine years. These are tactics expected of repressive regimes, not the American government."Also under the proposal, the president would have the authority to declare what is - and what is not - a grave breach of the War Crimes Act, making the president his own judge and jury. This provision would give him unilateral authority to declare certain torture and abuse legal and sound. In a telling move, during a call with reporters today, National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley would not even answer a question about whether waterboarding would be permitted under the agreement.
"The agreement would also violate time-honored American due process standards by permitting the use of evidence coerced through cruel and abusive treatment. We urge lawmakers to stand firm in their commitment to American values and reject this charade of a compromise."
This proposed legislation, if allowed to move forward, does not make us safer. What it does do is to overrule the Supreme Court decisions which have gone against the Bush administration in regards to the rights of detainees, the legality of Military Tribunals (renamed "Military Commissions" under this legislation), and allowing the use of testimony gained through torture and evidence which no one is allowed to see. It also would give the President the right under U.S. law to determine what the Geneva Convention means, and the authority to ignore it if he (she) so wishes.
It is alarming that the ruling of the commissions is placed beyond the review of the Supreme Court, and that the fitness of Commission Judges is also beyond challenge. The only oversight that I see in this legislation is a once yearly report to the various armed services committee.
The proposed legislation is also retroactive (as far as I can tell) as it removes any starting date from consideration. Previous versions had specified August 1, 2005. In this regard, it protects the administration, CIA, contractors, and others, from investigation or prosecution for war crimes. As far as I can tell from the legislation and various analyses, it is a buffer both internationally and domestically.
Of further note, it is not constrained to "alien enemy combatants," but expands to anyone who is suspected of aiding and abetting suspected "terrorists," or enemy combatants.
With the capitulation of McCain, Warner, and Graham, it seems highly likely that this bill will breeze through despite any resistance from the Democrats. So it is a (huge) win for the administration, a win for the political aspirations of McCain, Warner and Graham, and a huge loss for the citizens of the United States, and the international laws to which we have been a party for almost 60 years.
*******
Summarization of pertinent aspects of S. 3930:
Sec. 3 Authorization for Military Tribunals
a) the President has the right to establish them for the trial of "alien unlawful combatants;"
b) this does not limit the President's right to establish other military tribunals;
c) the tribunal has the authority to impose punishment - including death
d) the Secretary of Defense has the authority to carry out the penalties imposed by the tribunals.
e) the Secretary of Defense will give an annual report to the House and Senate armed services committee.
Military Commissions:
"(f) Geneva Conventions Not Establishing Source of Rights- No alien enemy unlawful combatant subject to trial by military commission under this chapter may invoke the Geneva Conventions as a source of rights at his trial by military commission."
Sec. 3 Subchapter IV - Sec. 950j. Finality of proceedings, findings, and sentences
(b) Provisions of Chapter Sole Basis for Review of Military Commission Procedures and Actions- Except as otherwise provided in this chapter and notwithstanding any other provision of law (including section 2241 of title 28 or any other habeas corpus provision), no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any claim or cause of action whatsoever, including any action pending on or filed after the date of enactment of this chapter, relating to the prosecution, trial, or judgment of a military commission under this chapter, including challenges to the lawfulness of procedures of military commissions under this chapter.
Sec 4, Subchapter 1 definitions c) "Inapplicability of Certain Provisions"
1) speedy trial not required
2) compulsory self-incrimination accepted
3) pre-trial investigation
(f)"GENEVA CONVENTIONS NOT ESTABLISHING SOURCE OF RIGHTS.--No alien enemy unlawful combatant subject to trial by military commission under this chapter may invoke the Geneva Conventions as a source of rights at his trial by military commission.
SEC. 5. AMENDMENTS TO OTHER LAWS.
(d) Review of Judgments of Military Commissions
(2) DETAINEE TREATMENT ACT OF 2005- Section 1005(e)(3) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (title X of Public Law 109-148; 119 Stat. 2740; 10 U.S.C. 801 note) is amended--
(A) in subparagraph (A), by striking `pursuant to Military Commission Order No. 1. dated August 31, 2005 (or any successor military order)' and inserting `by a military commission under chapter 47A of title 10, United States Code';
SEC. 6. HABEAS CORPUS MATTERS.
(e)(1) No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who--
`(A) is currently in United States custody; and
`(B) has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.
SEC. 10. SEVERABILITY.
If any provision of this Act or amendment made by a provision of this Act, or the application of such provision or amendment to any person or circumstance, is held to be unconstitutional, the remainder of this Act and the amendments made by this Act, and the application of such provisions and amendments to any other person or circumstance, shall not be affected thereby.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/12681
Earlier Ruling:
http://www.ratical.org/radiation/DU/ICTforAatT.html#s10
My point in posting the two links above is to say that no matter how Mr. Bush wants to change the Genieva Convention of to re-interperate it; that the fact of the matter is that the United States has signed it, and is bound by it, no matter WHO is President.
And, although Bush may be taking measures to secure his legal standing in the United States, that does not protect him from International Law, and we can only hope for Justice to Prevail.
Because no one, and no country is above the law.
Posted by: PlayNice at September 23, 2006 10:07 PMPlaynice, what nation on earth would seek to hold the leader of the greatest military power on earth accountable in international court if Bush chooses not to respond to a subpeona?
What President after Bush, seeking reelection would dare turn Bush over to an international court?
Bush’s handlers have thought this one through adequately. The only circumstance under which he may be handed over by the U.S. government for trial in international court would be by order of a lame duck president to follow him. But, there, Bush’s handlers are counting on such a President to have regard for his/her political party and the harm done it by such an action.
Politicians are a very self protecting lot. They have spent hundreds of years perfecting the system to be just so! One law for the people, quite another for politicians: except those who play outside the rules of the political system and besmirch their fellow politicians by their actions. (e.g. Abramoff - Ney - Jefferson - DeLay)
Posted by: David R. Remer at September 23, 2006 11:36 PMRowan
An excellent analysis.
These machinations by the Bush Regime seem aimed more at protecting themselves from investigation and prosecution than at protecting the country. For example, they are screaming that if the Democrats get control of the House or Senate they will just try to impeach the President. They hope to use this to retain control in the mid term elections, but if they lose control in the mid terms they will have laid the political ground work to make it hard for the Dems to do anything. Brilliant. Evil. But Brilliant.
Posted by: Ray Guest at September 23, 2006 11:57 PMThe war is within the USA—today, not the days after 911, but today- when McCain compromises the Geneva Convention, then it is not the terrorists we should fear, it is “us”.. We canabalize ourselves- if we do not protect our soldiers from torture by supporting the laws of the Geneva Convention, then we devour ourselves
Posted by: jj5 at September 24, 2006 12:22 AMDavid R. Remer
…what nation on earth would seek to hold the leader of the greatest military power on earth accountable in international court if Bush chooses not to respond to a subpeona?
If he has broken any International laws, I would hope that the PEOPLE of this COUNTRY would hold him responsible, and act on it.
jj5,
Nicely put.
It seems that some people are seriously confused when they talk about “the Geneva Conventions,” as if the Geneva Conventions guarantees combatants, illegal combatants and outright terrorists the same rights as an American under the US Consitution.
It would be extremly helpful if, amidst all this puffed up moralistic outrage, somebody could actually point out what elements of the Geneva Convention would actually be contravened by the McCain/White House agreement.
Otherwise it looks a whole lot like people demanding that accused foreign terrorists are read their Miranda warning, given an attorney paid for by the American taxpayer, and then tried by a citizen’s jury composed, of say, residents of Berkeley, California.
The measure under discussion here, as John McCain who knows something about what torture actually is, conforms to both the spirit and the word of the Geneva Conventions and outlaws torture. So what more do you want?
Nothing we do is going to satisfy the so-called international community, as so many of them oppose the Iraqi intervention and would only be too glad to use “internataional law” as a means of political score settling. And I wonder how many of those in the US raising such a fuss are doing the same—campaigning against the Iraq war by fighting a diversionary battle over the human rights of terrorists.
Posted by: Pilsner at September 24, 2006 01:44 AMSo for the entire duration of the cold war, fighting communist countries we honored the terms of the Geneva Convention but now that we have a group of Islamic fundamentalist to do battle with we have to stoop to this level. Seems the terrorist have won.
Posted by: j2t2 at September 24, 2006 01:49 AMPilsner,
We do not expect our government to feed these guys milk and cookies. Please do not belittle torture or inhumane treatment.
John McCain who at first came out against the presidents position is now all for it. Why? What has he been promised? He is obviously the only Rep in a position (clean enough) to think about running for the white house in 08.
What do we want? We just want the truth. No one has had a problem with the Genieva convention in 60 years until Bush. But, now he has a problem and he cant understand it. I think he understands, that he has broken the law up until now quite well, and that is why he needs this passed. (Its as good as a self pardon).
You are wrong. There is a lot that will satisfy us. Just treat prisoners of war humanely and do not torture them and allow them their day in court so that they (and we) know, if they are really guilty or not. And, if they are, they can rot in jail for all I care.
But, there are people being let go, seams like every day now, that were not guilty of anything. What do we need to do to them? Cut their balls off? Will that satisfy your blood thirst? And what kind of information do you want to get from them? What will they have now …. 2-3 years after the fact? Their intel was out dated 2 years ago. None of it could possiably be relivant.
When our county wants to change the rules, what is to prevent all those other countries that signed it, from doing the same thing to our guys? Nothing.
By advocating torture, by refusing to abide by what we have already agreed to, and have adheared to for over 60 years, we put our soilders at risk and we make our principals of “freedom and justice” a laughing stock to the rest of the world.
Just ask yourself…If what Bush feels he needs to do by way of “torture”, if those things are done to Americans and we find out about it? How would we like it? Would it make us want to fight back? Just ask yourself that!
Posted by: PlayNice at September 24, 2006 03:22 AMThe problem with the reciprocity argument is that our current enemies clearly DO NOT abide by any rules at all. We have managed to maintain a perfect head to body relationship among our prisoners. The same cannot be said for the bad guys. Our respect, or lack of it, has no impact on their actions.
The other problem is with the Geneva conventions. They were set up as agreements between nations. The enemy today does not represent a nation (at least not one that signed the agreement.) Under the convention, most of these guys would be spies or saboteurs and subject to summary execution.
Another important value of the Geneva convention is to protect civilians. It does not allow the targeting of civilian populations (which is what terrorists specifically do) AND it does not allow military units to hide among and as civilians. These things are the basis of the terrorist strategy. If they followed the Geneva convention, they would not be able to fight at all.
I know Mel Gibson is out of style, but some of you have probably seem Lethal Weapon (I think 3) where the South Africans are smuggling drugs and each time the cops catch them, the leader pulls out his wallet and claims diplomatic immunity. Of course, the law doesn’t really work this way, but that is what we are giving the bad guys. They murder our people and hide behind civilians and if they are caught, they suddenly claim special rights.
So let’s do Geneva right. When we catch the terrorists hiding among civilians, let’s do the battlefield interogation (allowed by the convention) and them immediately execute them as spies and saboteurs. We did it to the Germans during the Battle of the Bulge. Seemed to be a good idea back then.
The administration is trying its best to defend our country. Countries abroad and people inside the US are just trying to score political points. The Blame America First crowd is parroting what the terrorist are saying about us and that is, frankly, despicable. Remember that the terrorists will kill you, no matter what your politics are.
Posted by: JoeRWC at September 24, 2006 04:51 AMJack,
Fine argument. This bill does nothing but define what is torture and what is not. A slap in the face or belly does no permanent damage. Neither does waterboarding. Having your head cut off does. When’s the last time the U.S. released a grainy video of some terrorist being beheaded?
Furthermore, giving these terrorists any protections fundamentally undermines the Geneva Conventions. The Conventions establish rules of war and try to frame war in such a way as to cause minimum death and destruction to civlians. The terrorist violate every article of the Geneva Conventions and are not entitled to any protections. Jack is right, they are liable for summary judgement and execution, and if I had the authority to do so, the only restriction I would impose is that the bullets had to rubbed over some pork first.
The idea that the Geneva Conventions are some sort of magic blanket of protection against foriegn abuse is nonsense as well. Senator McCain is very emphatic on the point that he was tortured by North Vietnam, the same North Vietnam that was also a signatory of the Geneva Conventions. What good did it do him? The only people likely to obey the Geneva Conventions today are nations like Britain that we wouldn’t go to war with anyways. All these high horse principles of the left would be thrown out the window if torturing a terrorist got back a kidnapped family member. JoeRWC said it right, thier behavior is despicable.
P.S. Jack, that was Lethal Weapon II.
Posted by: 1LT B at September 24, 2006 05:08 AM The three paper tigers, Senators John Warner, McCain and Graham in the senate actually had my hopes up about stopping this president from further damage to the morals and values of this great country. I used to have respect for these Republicican Senators.
I am an old paratrooper. I have been accused of being a coward, and unpatriotic because I believe we should have aimed all our military strategic and operative resources at the terrorists in Afganistan. The war in Iraq is a huge costly mistake.
I’m ashamed of the leadership in this country.
I cant believe any poll would put Dems ahead of Reps. on National security or the war on terror. Those polls must have been conucted in New York and California. The truth is that Dems are weak on defense. When in Rome do as the Romans do. Dems are so concerned about torture,even when the enemy cuts off heads. Please explain to me how us not using strong methods to get information is going to effect what the terrorist do. The dems have tried to obstruct our efforts to get information from terrorsists at every turn ie Patriot Act, electronic survelance. The dems simply do not know how to keep our people safe. Clinton was a fine example of how dems execute war, Clinton treated the war efforts as though they were criminal investigations.
Posted by: Thomas at September 24, 2006 09:09 AMWhen the President, the vice-President, and the Congress no longer desire to uphold the law of the U.S.A. (which they have promised under oath to do), then they need to be charged with such crimes…if they don’t want to uphold the U.S. Constitution nor the country’s signing of the Geneva Conventions (treaties become part of U.S. law…of course, we’ve seen how well that worked out for the Native Americans)then they no longer deserve, nor under law should they be in, office pretending to “represent” this nation.
Impeach them, charge them with treason, vote them out, block them at every turn until we citizens have people who represent not just our views, but who uphold the U.S. Constitution and the treaties which we signed in good faith.
Otherwise we are nothing but one more terrorist nation if we let these people remain and controvert the law of our nation.
Posted by: Lynne at September 24, 2006 09:41 AM
Shall we continue to tell the World that we are a Godly, Christian Nation who’s citizens try to hold themselves and their leaders to a higher moral standard than many of the other nations, or shall we prove to the World that we can be just as evil and despodic as the terrorists or rogue nations such as North Korea?
Although I am not a Christian, I hope we choose the former rather than the latter because once we start down that path, we will eventually become what we claim to detest.
Example: The new torture law will give the President carte blanche to deal with suspected terrorists and anyone suspected of aiding terrorists. I have heard it stated,many times on Watchblog, that anyone who disagrees with the Administration is aiding the terrorists. Does this mean that an American Citizen who protests what the Administration is doing could suddenly disappear never to be seen again? Could this new law be used in such a way in the future.
Posted by: jlw at September 24, 2006 09:52 AM
While every inch of this legislation frightens me, it is the last bit that really chills me to the bone.
SEC. 10. SEVERABILITY.
If any provision of this Act or amendment made by a provision of this Act, or the application of such provision or amendment to any person or circumstance, is held to be unconstitutional, the remainder of this Act and the amendments made by this Act, and the application of such provisions and amendments to any other person or circumstance, shall not be affected thereby.
Basically this guts any attempt to change this legislation. Is it just me or does this blatantly disregard the idea of Separation of Powers that this entire government is built upon? Even if the courts strike down part, the rest still stands? This is, as a friend would say, “re-cock-ulous” (beyond ridiculous).
And I just have to ask, Pilsner, I have yet to see you have a single thought on this blog that didn’t begin life as a talking-point memo. Are you capable of independent thought, or do you just download them directly into your brain every morning? I just LOVE how every time this subject comes up, the GOP tries to change gears and start discussing how “aimless” the Dems are. Take Joe for example. He doesn’t try to discuss the legsislation at all, just how directionless the Left is. Well, on this subject, I can sum up our plan in two phrases. Nice and slow so I’m not misunderstood.
1)Stop…torturing…people
2)Give….them….a….real….trial.
That clear enough? Nuff said.
Posted by: leatherankh at September 24, 2006 09:53 AMJack, your 3:28 am post presents a very good answer to the problem and keeps us in compliance with the geneva convention. So why the new bill?
As far as Iraq, how does the insurgents and those killing members of the other sects fit in? they are civilians in their own country.Maybe a police action is appropriate. Both armies (us and Iraq’s) are on the same side. The terrorist once identifed would of course be under the interrorgate and execute rule. The gitmo detainees would of course be a mess to deal with.
When we engage in torture, we no longer hold the moral high ground. If the US is going to battle terrorists, we must remain a civilized society enforcing the democratic principles upon which we were founded. How can Congress seriously think that changing the definition of torture makes torturing people acceptable? We should all fear a day the term “enemy combatants” is changed to include any person who disagrees with those in power.
This Michigan voter will be showing Candice Miller no love in November.
Posted by: Mc at September 24, 2006 11:25 AMThe whole point of this legislation is to protect those who have or might in the future torture, from prosecution, from the administration on down.
Posted by: womanmarine at September 24, 2006 12:07 PMPilsner: It would be extremly helpful if, amidst all this puffed up moralistic outrage, somebody could actually point out what elements of the Geneva Convention would actually be contravened by the McCain/White House agreement.
I am not a legal scholar, but it seems as if the proposed legislation violates the following components of the Geneva Conventions. All of the following are quoted from Geneva Conventions - Society for Professional Journalists. Only pertinent components included.
access to prisoners of war
Captured medical personnel or members of the Red Cross or other aid organizations must be allowed to periodically visit prisoners of war in labor units or hospitals outside the camp. (Convention I, Art. 28a )
Representatives of the protecting powers shall have permission to visit all places where prisoners of war may be, particularly to places of internment, imprisonment and labor. They must be able to interview the prisoners without witnesses, either personally or through an interpreter. ( Convention III, Art. 126)
amnesty
No party to the Geneva Conventions can absolve itself, or another party, of liability for grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions. ( Convention I, Art. 51; Convention II, Art. 52; Convention III, Art. 131; Convention IV, Art. 148)
attorneys
Prisoners of war must have the right to legal advice, particularly in the case of preparing powers of attorney and wills. ( Convention III, Art. 77)
Those children who do participate in hostilities do not lose their protections under the Geneva Conventions, including the right to an education. (Protocol II, Art. 4, Sec. 3d)
Children who have committed an offense related to the armed conflict before their 18th birthday cannot be subject to the death penalty. (Protocol I, Art. 77, Sec. 5)
If arrested, detained or interned, children must be held in separate quarters from adults, unless they are with their families. (Protocol I, Art. 77, Sec. 4)
baths
Prisoners of war must have access to baths and showers, as well as sufficient soap and water for personal toilets and for laundry. Women prisoners must have separate facilities. ( Convention III, Art. 29)
The above also applies to internees. ( Convention IV, Art. 85 )
censorship
Letters written by prisoners may be censored but a detaining power cannot use the excuse of not having enough translators to limit the number of letters that prisoners are allowed, unless the protecting power agrees. (Convention III, Art. 71)
The censoring must take place as quickly as possible by the dispatching state and the receiving state, and only once by each. The examination of packages must take place in the presence of a prisoner or a prisoner’s chosen representative. Any prohibition of correspondence must be temporary and as short as possible. (Convention III, Art. 76)
children
Parties to a conflict must respect children, provide them with any care or aid they require, and protect them from any form of indecent assault (Protocol I, Art. 77, Sec. 1).
Similar guidelines apply to internees’ mail. (Convention IV, Art. 112)
The same applies to civilian internees. ( Convention IV, Art. 113 )
Military commanders must have access to legal advisers to instruct them on the application of the Geneva Conventions. ( Protocol I, Art. 82)
civilian immunity
Civilians have special protections under Convention IV, Protocol I, and Protocol II.
They must be treated humanely, without discrimination based on race, color, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or other similar criteria.
Violence to life and person including murder, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture are prohibited.
The taking of hostages is prohibited.
Outrages upon personal dignity, including humiliating and degrading treatment are prohibited.
Sentences and executions without a judgment from a regularly constituted court and without benefit of the standard judicial guarantees are prohibited. (Convention IV, Art. 3)
civilian
A civilian is any person who does not belong to any of the following categories: members of the armed forces, militias or volunteer corps, organized resistance movements, and residents of an occupied territory who spontaneously take up arms. If there is any doubt whether a person is civilian, then he or she is to be considered a civilian. (Protocol I, Art. 50, Sec. 1)
clothing for prisoners of war
Prisoners must be supplied with clothing, underwear and footwear that is both sufficient and suitable for the climate. (Convention III, Art. 27)
Prisoners of war must not be forced to give up their own clothing, even if it is military issue. (Convention III, Art. 18)
coercion
Prisoners of war may not be tortured mentally or physically, and no other form of coercion may be used during interrogation. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer must not be punished in any way. (Convention III, Art. 17)
Prisoners of war may not be tortured or coerced into admitting guilt during a judicial proceeding. (Convention III, Art. 99)
Civilians must not be tortured or coerced, particularly to obtain information from them or third parties. (Convention IV, art. 31)
combatant status
Combatants have protections under the Geneva Conventions, as well as obligations.
Convention I offers protections to wounded combatants, who are defined as members of the armed forces of a party to an international conflict, members of militias or volunteer corps including members of organized resistance movements as long as they have a well-defined chain of command, are clearly distinguishable from the civilian population, carry their arms openly, and obey the laws of war. (Convention I, Art. 13, Sec. 1 and Sec. 2)
Convention III offers a wide range of protections to combatants who have become prisoners of war. (Convention III, Art. 4)
For example, captured combatants cannot be punished for acts of war except in the cases where the enemy’s own soldiers would also be punished, and to the same extent. (Convention III, Art. 87)
See prisoner of war for a list of additional protections.
Possible Exception, but then would fall under civilian However, other individuals, including civilians, who commit hostile acts and are captured do not have these protections. For example, civilians in an occupied territory are subject to the existing penal laws. (Convention IV, Art. 64)
But the above may possibly overridden by this The 1977 Protocols extend the definition of combatant to include any fighters who carry arms openly during preparation for an attack and during the attack itself, (Protocol I, Art. 44, Sec. 3) but these Protocols aren’t as widely accepted as the four 1949 conventions.
In addition to rights, combatants also have obligations under the Geneva Conventions.
Although all combatants are required to comply with international laws, violations do not deprive the combatants of their status, or of their right to prisoner of war protections if they are captured. (Protocol I, Art. 44, Sec. 2)
concentration camps
Concentration camps, though not mentioned explicitly in the Geneva Conventions, violate a number of provisions, including those concerning unlawful confinement and due process.
confinement
Prisoners of war may be confined as a disciplinary punishment, except where it would be inhuman, brutal, or dangerous to their health. (Convention III, Art. 88)
Prisoners of war may not be held in close confinement except for reasons of health, and then only as long as medically necessary. (Convention III, Art. 21)
A prisoner may be confined for no more than 30 days at a time, with a minimum of three days before any additional punishment. (Convention III, Art. 90)
No prisoner shall spend more than 14 days in confinement waiting the resolution of a disciplinary offense. (Convention III, Art. 95)
Women prisoners shall be confined separately and under the supervision of women. (Convention III, Art. 97)
Internees may also be confined as a disciplinary punishment, with similar limitations as for prisoners of war. (Convention IV, Art. 117, Art. 124 and Art. 125)
Unlawful confinement of civilians is a grave breach of the Geneva Convention. (Protocol IV, Art. 147)
crimes against humanity
War crimes are against the customary laws of war which are applicable in any conflict, regardless of whether the country in question is a signatory to the Geneva Convention. They include the rights listed in the common article 3 of the Geneva Conventions (Convention I, Article 3) and the basics of human rights law - freedom from torture, mutilation and rape, slavery, and willful killing. Customary law also forbids genocide, crimes against humanity, as well as war crimes.
death sentences
Prisoners of war and the protecting powers must be informed as soon as possible about which offenses are punishable by death. Other offenses may not be added to the list later without the agreement of the protecting power. (Convention III, Art. 100)
An occupying power may sentence civilians to death only if they are guilty of spying, serious acts of sabotage, or if they murdered one or more people Ñ but only if these offenses were punishable by death by local laws before the occupation began. (Convention IV, Art. 68)
If civilians in an occupied territory are charged with an offense that is punishable by death, their protecting power must be notified immediately. If the notification is not received at least three weeks before the first hearing, the trial shall not proceed. (Convention IV, Art. 71)
See also fair trials.
deportation
Individual or mass deportations from an occupied territory are prohibited regardless of motive. If evacuation is required, civilians may be moved within an occupied territory or outside if absolutely necessary, but must then be returned home as soon as hostilities in the area have ceased. (Convention IV, Art. 47)
Civilians in an occupied territory must not be transferred to a country where they have reason to fear persecution based on their political or religious beliefs. (Convention IV, Art. 45)
dormitories
Prisoners of war must be housed under the same conditions as the local forces of the detaining power. The premises must be dry, adequately heated and lighted, and secured against fire. Women must have separate dormitories from men. (Convention III, Art. 25)
If women who are not members of a family unit are interned in the same place as men, then they must have separate sleeping quarters and sanitary conveniences. (Convention IV, Art. 85)
due process
The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions are forbidden unless all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized people have been met and a regularly constituted court has pronounced a judgment. (Convention I, Art. 3, Sec 1d)
enemy aliens
Aliens in the territory of a party to a conflict have the right to individual or collective relief, medical attention, and the freedom to practice their religions. In addition, they must be allowed to leave danger zones to the same extent as nations. (Convention IV, Art. 38)
fair trial
The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions are forbidden unless all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized people have been met and a regularly constituted court has pronounced a judgment. (Convention I, Art. 3, Sec 1d)
Depriving combatants, prisoners of war, refugees, or medical or religious personnel of a fair trail is a grave breach of the Geneva Convention. (Protocol I, Art. 85, Sec. 4e)
grave breaches
Grave breaches of the Conventions and Protocols are war crimes.
Attacking a person who is hors de combat. (Protocol I, Art. 85, Sec. 3)
Any unlawful act which causes death or seriously endangers the health of a prisoner of war. (Convention III, Art. 13)
Unlawful transfer, deportation or confinement of civilians, willful killing, hostage taking and torture . (Protocol IV, Art. 147)
Depriving civilians who are under the control of an enemy power of the right to a fair trial (Convention IV, Art. 147)
Depriving combatants, prisoners of war, refugees, or medical or religious personnel of a fair trial. (Protocol I, Art. 85, Sec. 4e)
humane treatment of internees
Internees retain their civilian status and may exercise all attendant rights. (Convention IV, Art. 80)
Internees must be accommodated according to nationality, language and customs. Family groups must be lodged together and with facilities for leading a proper family life. (Convention IV, Art. 82)
Internees must not be housed in areas exposed to dangers of war. (Convention IV, Art. 83)
Internees must be housed in clean and healthy buildings, adequately heated and lighted, with suitable bedding, sanitary facilities, and separate accommodations for women who are not members of a family group. (Convention IV, Art. 85)
Internees must have access to premises suitable for religious services of any denomination. (Convention IV, Art. 86)
Internees must have enough food and drinking water to avoid nutritional deficiencies and in keeping with their customary diet, with additional food provided for pregnant and nursing mothers and young children. (Convention IV, Art. 89)
Internees must be provided with adequate clothing, footwear, and underwear. (Convention IV, Art. 90)
Internees must have access to adequate medical care. (Convention IV, Art. 91)
See also medical care for internees.
Identification by tattooing or imprinting signs or markings on the body is prohibited, and internees must not be subjected to prolonged standing and roll-calls, punishment drill, military drill and maneuvers, or reduction in food rations. (Convention IV, Art. 100)
In no case may disciplinary penalties be inhuman, brutal or dangerous to the health of the internees. (Convention IV, Art. 119)
Imprisonment in premises without daylight and all forms of cruelty without exception are forbidden. (Convention IV, Art. 118)
Internees may not be transferred to prisons to undergo disciplinary punishment there. (Convention IV, Art. 124)
See also internees, punishment of.
humane treatment of prisoners of war
Prisoners of war must be humanely treated at all times. Any unlawful act which causes death or seriously endangers the health of a prisoner of war is a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions. In particular, prisoners must not be subject to physical mutilation>, biological experiments, violence, intimidation, insults, and public curiosity. (Convention III, Art. 13)
Prisoners of war must be interred on land, and only in clean and healthy areas. (Convention III, Art. 22)
Prisoners of war are entitled to the same treatment given to a country’s own forces, including total surface and cubic space of dormitories, fire protection, adequate heating and lighting, and separate dormitories for women. (Convention III, Art. 25)
Prisoners of war must receive enough food to maintain weight and to prevent nutritional deficiencies, with account of the habitual diet of the prisoners. Food must not be used for disciplinary purposes. (Convention III, Art. 26)
Prisoners of war must receive adequate clothing, underwear and footwear. The clothing must be kept in good repair and prisoners who work must receive clothing appropriate to their tasks. (Convention III, Art. 27)
Also see clothing for prisoners of war.
Prisoners of war must have adequate sanitary facilities, with separate facilities for women prisoners. (Convention III, Art. 29)
Prisoners of war must receive adequate medical attention. (Convention III, Art. 30)
See medical care for prisoners of war.
Prisoners of war must receive due process and fair trials. (Convention III, Art. 82 through Art. 88)
Collective punishment for individual acts, corporal punishment, imprisonment without daylight, and all forms of torture and cruelty are forbidden. (Convention III, Art. 87)
indecent assault
Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, enforced prostitution and any form of indecent assault is prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever, whether committed by civilians or military personnel. (Protocol I, Art. 75)
internees, punishment of
All civil laws in a territory continue to apply to internees who commit offenses during internment. However, if an act is only punishable when committed by internees and not other civilians, then that act can only be punished by disciplinary punishments. (Convention IV, Art. 117)
These include fines totaling not more than two weeks’ wages, loss of special privileges, a maximum of two hours of fatigue duties a day, or confinement not to exceed thirty consecutive days. (Convention IV, Art. 119)
Imprisonment in premises without daylight and all forms of cruelty without exception are forbidden. (Convention IV, Art. 118)
Internees may not be transferred to prisons to undergo disciplinary punishment there. (Convention IV, Art. 124)
internment
If an occupying power considers it necessary for imperative reasons of security, it may restrict civilians to assigned residents or to internment. Due process must be followed and internees must have the right of appeal. In addition, cases must be reviewed regularly, every six months if possible. (Convention IV, Art. 78)
If the internee is no longer able to work, then the occupying power must provide employment opportunities comparable to those of other civilians or otherwise ensure the internee’s support. (Convention IV, Art. 39)
In addition, internees must be allowed to receive allowances from their home countries, from the protecting power, or from relief societies. (Convention IV, Art. 39)
interrogation of prisoners of war
Prisoners of war are only obligated to provide names, ranks, date of birth, army, personal or serial identification numbers or equivalent information. Failure to do so may result in loss of special privileges. (Convention III, Art. 17)
No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion may be inflicted. Prisoners who refuse to answer questions may not be threatened, insulted or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind. (Convention III, Art. 17)
Prisoners of war must be questioned in a language they can understand. (Convention III, Art. 17)
lawyers
Prisoners of war must have the right to legal advice, particularly in the case of preparing powers of attorney and wills. (Convention III, Art. 77)
The same applies to civilian internees. (Convention IV, Art. 113)
parcels
Prisoners of war must be allowed to receive parcels containing food, clothing, medical supplies, religious, educational and recreational objects. (Convention III, Art. 72)
Detainees in occupied territories must be allowed to receive at least once relief parcel monthly. (Convention IV, Art. 76)
Internees must be allowed to receive parcels containing food, clothing, medical supplies, as well as books and religious, educational or recreational objects. (Convention IV, Art. 108)
prisoners’ representatives
In all prisoner of war camps, except where officers are present, the prisoners must be allowed to freely elect representatives by secret ballot every six months and in case of vacancies. These representatives will lobby for prisoners’ interest before the military authorities, the protecting powers, and . (Convention III, Art. 79)
Prisoners of war must be allowed to freely consult with their representatives, and these representatives must be allowed to freely visit premises where prisoners are kept. (Convention III, Art. 81)
religious services
Adequate premises must be provided to prisoners of war (Convention III, Art. 34) and internees (Convention IV, Art. 86) for religious services to be held.
torture
Torture is forbidden by the Geneva Conventions, both in cases of internal conflicts (Convention I, Art. 3, Sec. 1A), wounded combatants (Convention I, Art. 12), civilians in occupied territories (Convention IV, Art. 32), civilians in international conflicts (Protocol I, Art. 75, Sec. 2Ai) and civilians in internal conflicts (Protocol II, Art. 4, Sec. 2A).
mane treatment of internees
Internees retain their civilian status and may exercise all attendant rights. (Convention IV, Art. 80)
Internees must be accommodated according to nationality, language and customs. Family groups must be lodged together and with facilities for leading a proper family life. (Convention IV, Art. 82)
Internees must not be housed in areas exposed to dangers of war. (Convention IV, Art. 83)
Internees must be housed in clean and healthy buildings, adequately heated and lighted, with suitable bedding, sanitary facilities, and separate accommodations for women who are not members of a family group. (Convention IV, Art. 85)
Internees must have access to premises suitable for religious services of any denomination. (Convention IV, Art. 86)
Internees must have enough food and drinking water to avoid nutritional deficiencies and in keeping with their customary diet, with additional food provided for pregnant and nursing mothers and young children. (Convention IV, Art. 89)
Internees must be provided with adequate clothing, footwear, and underwear. (Convention IV, Art. 90)
Internees must have access to adequate medical care. (Convention IV, Art. 91)
See also medical care for internees.
Identification by tattooing or imprinting signs or markings on the body is prohibited, and internees must not be subjected to prolonged standing and roll-calls, punishment drill, military drill and maneuvers, or reduction in food rations. (Convention IV, Art. 100)
In no case may disciplinary penalties be inhuman, brutal or dangerous to the health of the internees. (Convention IV, Art. 119)
Imprisonment in premises without daylight and all forms of cruelty without exception are forbidden. (Convention IV, Art. 118)
Internees may not be transferred to prisons to undergo disciplinary punishment there. (Convention IV, Art. 124)
See also internees, punishment of.
humane treatment of prisoners of war
Prisoners of war must be humanely treated at all times. Any unlawful act which causes death or seriously endangers the health of a prisoner of war is a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions. In particular, prisoners must not be subject to physical mutilation>, biological experiments, violence, intimidation, insults, and public curiosity. (Convention III, Art. 13)
Prisoners of war must be interred on land, and only in clean and healthy areas. (Convention III, Art. 22)
Prisoners of war are entitled to the same treatment given to a country’s own forces, including total surface and cubic space of dormitories, fire protection, adequate heating and lighting, and separate dormitories for women. (Convention III, Art. 25)
Prisoners of war must receive enough food to maintain weight and to prevent nutritional deficiencies, with account of the habitual diet of the prisoners. Food must not be used for disciplinary purposes. (Convention III, Art. 26)
Prisoners of war must receive adequate clothing, underwear and footwear. The clothing must be kept in good repair and prisoners who work must receive clothing appropriate to their tasks. (Convention III, Art. 27)
Also see clothing for prisoners of war.
Prisoners of war must have adequate sanitary facilities, with separate facilities for women prisoners. (Convention III, Art. 29)
Prisoners of war must receive adequate medical attention. (Convention III, Art. 30)
See medical care for prisoners of war.
Prisoners of war must receive due process and fair trials. (Convention III, Art. 82 through Art. 88)
Collective punishment for individual acts, corporal punishment, imprisonment without daylight, and all forms of torture and cruelty are forbidden. (Convention III, Art. 87)
indecent assault
Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, enforced prostitution and any form of indecent assault is prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever, whether committed by civilians or military personnel. (Protocol I, Art. 75)
internees, punishment of
All civil laws in a territory continue to apply to internees who commit offenses during internment. However, if an act is only punishable when committed by internees and not other civilians, then that act can only be punished by disciplinary punishments. (Convention IV, Art. 117)
These include fines totaling not more than two weeks’ wages, loss of special privileges, a maximum of two hours of fatigue duties a day, or confinement not to exceed thirty consecutive days. (Convention IV, Art. 119)
Imprisonment in premises without daylight and all forms of cruelty without exception are forbidden. (Convention IV, Art. 118)
Internees may not be transferred to prisons to undergo disciplinary punishment there. (Convention IV, Art. 124)
internment
If an occupying power considers it necessary for imperative reasons of security, it may restrict civilians to assigned residents or to internment. Due process must be followed and internees must have the right of appeal. In addition, cases must be reviewed regularly, every six months if possible. (Convention IV, Art. 78)
If the internee is no longer able to work, then the occupying power must provide employment opportunities comparable to those of other civilians or otherwise ensure the internee’s support. (Convention IV, Art. 39)
In addition, internees must be allowed to receive allowances from their home countries, from the protecting power, or from relief societies. (Convention IV, Art. 39)
interrogation of prisoners of war
Prisoners of war are only obligated to provide names, ranks, date of birth, army, personal or serial identification numbers or equivalent information. Failure to do so may result in loss of special privileges. (Convention III, Art. 17)
No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion may be inflicted. Prisoners who refuse to answer questions may not be threatened, insulted or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind. (Convention III, Art. 17)
Prisoners of war must be questioned in a language they can understand. (Convention III, Art. 17)
lawyers
Prisoners of war must have the right to legal advice, particularly in the case of preparing powers of attorney and wills. (Convention III, Art. 77)
The same applies to civilian internees. (Convention IV, Art. 113)
parcels
Prisoners of war must be allowed to receive parcels containing food, clothing, medical supplies, religious, educational and recreational objects. (Convention III, Art. 72)
Detainees in occupied territories must be allowed to receive at least once relief parcel monthly. (Convention IV, Art. 76)
Internees must be allowed to receive parcels containing food, clothing, medical supplies, as well as books and religious, educational or recreational objects. (Convention IV, Art. 108)
prisoners’ representatives
In all prisoner of war camps, except where officers are present, the prisoners must be allowed to freely elect representatives by secret ballot every six months and in case of vacancies. These representatives will lobby for prisoners’ interest before the military authorities, the protecting powers, and . (Convention III, Art. 79)
Prisoners of war must be allowed to freely consult with their representatives, and these representatives must be allowed to freely visit premises where prisoners are kept. (Convention III, Art. 81)
religious services
Adequate premises must be provided to prisoners of war (Convention III, Art. 34) and internees (Convention IV, Art. 86) for religious services to be held.
torture
Torture is forbidden by the Geneva Conventions, both in cases of internal conflicts (Convention I, Art. 3, Sec. 1A), wounded combatants (Convention I, Art. 12), civilians in occupied territories (Convention IV, Art. 32), civilians in international conflicts (Protocol I, Art. 75, Sec. 2Ai) and civilians in internal conflicts (Protocol II, Art. 4, Sec. 2A).
Posted by: Rowan at September 24, 2006 12:19 PMJack,
You wrote:
The problem with the reciprocity argument is that our current enemies clearly DO NOT abide by any rules at all. We have managed to maintain a perfect head to body relationship among our prisoners. The same cannot be said for the bad guys. Our respect, or lack of it, has no impact on their actions.if they are caught, they suddenly claim special rights.
We faced much graver dangers during the cold war and did just fine with the Geneva convention and we had no guarantee that the Soviets would play fair with our guys. But we honored the Geneva conventions for two reasons: 1. Put pressure on the Soviets to play fair. They could either play fair or face international condemnation and isolation. 2. Honoring the Geneva conventions defined us as honorable. It defined us as the good guys - gave us the moral high ground - drew the support of world opinion to us. The same applies now. This isn’t about the terrorist. They are not going to honor the Geneva Conventions. That is bad news for any of our people that get caught by them, but it is the only good news that we have in the war on terror. The willingness to kill innocents - their savage ruthlessness is the only thing that swings world opinion our way. We cannot defeat an idea with a gun. We must defeat the idea with a better idea. perhaps the idea “that all men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights” - not special rights - “inalienable rights” - yea - that might work…
The reciprocity argument does not apply to the terrorist, it applies to future enemies. It sets the bar and demands a certain minimal level of human decency among combatants. Some low life scum bags might not meet the bar - but the bar must be set - it must be a bright line - it is not a matter of convenience or utility - it is a moral standard - something that you Republicans were supposed to be so good at according to the idiot who need not be named.
Posted by: Ray Guest at September 24, 2006 02:55 PMJack,
There is no moral ambiguity here. You can’t be a little bit pregnant. You are either for inalienable human rights or you are against inalienable human rights. You are either with us or against us. Are with the real Americans that fight for real American values or not?
Posted by: Ray Guest at September 24, 2006 03:01 PMA week or so ago Democrats were celebrating a minor victory. Headlines suggested that the senate was revolting against the President’s position on torture because 4 senators had defected. Sound bites featured Lindsay Graham stating that he would fight to the death against such measures.
At the time my feeling was that this was no victory. Big deal if four senators had defected. To me, our country was in serious trouble if even ONE senator favored a bill that allowed torture. Our 100 senators are among our country’s top statesmen. They have each been elected by a majority of the citizens of their state. They do not represent some small county, but an entire state. They are people who presumably serve because they believe in this country—a nation of laws. If a single one of these elected officials votes in favor of a bill giving the president an unbridaled right to detain and torture prisoners, then our country has lost any moral high ground it may ever have had.
And now we see that those four senators that we were absurdly cheering for just a week ago are as immoral as the rest of the members of their party.
The Republicans fight for the “right to life”, whether it is a woman’s right to choose abortion so that she can get on with her life, Terri Shivo’s husband’s right to exercise her wishes and get on with his life, or the ability for scientists to use zygote’s destined for destruction anyway for stem cell research. These right to lifers are the very same people who mock the Geneva Convention’s “assault on human dignity,” and believe in the torture of their fellow humans.
Any church or organized religion that can support a party that condones such affronts to human dignity are comepletely hypocritcal. The fact is that of the hundreds of detainees whom we’ve tortured and continue to torture, a small fraction are actually guilty of anything. Is it really the Republican Party’s desire to torture innocents to determine if they are guilty?
Let’s let Bush decide this…:
1) If he’s a “war” president, then we’re fighting a war and these prisoners are prisoners of war and they are due the protections enumerated above under the Geneva Conventions.
2) If Bush is NOT a “war” president, then we can get the hell out of Iraq and let these prisoners go…
His choice.
Posted by: Lynne at September 24, 2006 07:42 PM“Is it really the Republican Party’s desire to torture innocents to determine if they are guilty?”
It seems to be so Stan, sadly. They are willing to ignore the immorality of persecuting the innocent for their so-called “security”, all the while creating more who are willing to attack and terrorize.
This is like the Salem witch hunts, killing the innocent to see if they were guilty.
Rowan,
What’s your point?
The Neo-Con’s have blended in well with the last of the true “old-school” Republicans and we now have what appears to be a “one party” system that can’t be challenged.
We Democrats, whether it be the true liberals or the moderates, seem to have no voice whatsoever. Throughout this entire “torture bill” debate can you name one democrat that said a word and was actually heard.
I’m extremely dissapointed with my Democratic party. I’m ready to VOID the whole damn bunch of current Dems and see if we can’t find a few new Dems that still have some intestinal fortitude and don’t mind facing a fight head on.
As little as we Dems did to stop this we share at least half the blame. Unless we get a “second wind” we’re destined to lose again this November. And maybe we should!
The Green Party looks more and more desirable to me.
KansasDem
Posted by: KansasDem at September 24, 2006 08:05 PMJoe, I had to remove your quote of the article. Publishing copyrighted works from other publications is both illegal and violates our Rules for Participation.
Please comply with our Rules for Participation.
Posted by: Watchblog Managing Editor at September 24, 2006 09:30 PMKansasDem,
I don’t know about Rowan’s points, but his posting of the basic Geneva Convention showed me just how hard it is to clarify what it means.
I wish there was some way to write sarcastically. I’m also Hoping he posted it correctly, because I tried to read through it and frankly got bored.
If Bush can’t understand this:
Torture is forbidden by the Geneva Conventions, both in cases of internal conflicts (Convention I, Art. 3, Sec. 1A), wounded combatants (Convention I, Art. 12), civilians in occupied territories (Convention IV, Art. 32), civilians in international conflicts (Protocol I, Art. 75, Sec. 2Ai) and civilians in internal conflicts (Protocol II, Art. 4, Sec. 2A).
BUSH must not be as “highly educated as some would claim” C student or not. He must need a refresher course in first through fourth grade reading.
Posted by: Linda H. at September 24, 2006 10:01 PMMy intentions in posting the various aspects of the Geneva Conventions violated by both Bush (in relation to the detainees) and S. 3930 was that most people who think this is “no big deal” have no idea what is in the Conventions to which this nation is party. The violations are not just a “minor” thing.
I posted in detail (and sorry if it bored folks) because if I had summarized, there are those who would have said “that’s just your interpretation.”
Those were my intentions. Sorry if it wasn’t clear.
Posted by: Rowan Wolf at September 24, 2006 11:15 PM***THE BILL OF RIGHTS WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE A SUICIDE PACT***
It’s actually very simple folks. Contrary to hackneyed sayings, there are rules to war. Not wearing a uniform, not flying a flag, not properly identifying yourself, whimsical beheadings of unarmed personnel (to include non-combatants), and intentionally targeting teen hang-outs are against those rules.
Now, we could sit in stuffy college libraries and say things like “to keep the moral high ground it’s imperative we obey the Geneva Conventions even though our enemy doesn’t respect any rules to war at all”. Sure, and let’s also say to our sons playing college football that “Today’s adversary will be bludgeoning your knees with baseball bats as soon as every play begins, but don’t let that phase you. I want you to all play by the rules. Don’t worry, you’ll be fine.”
Get the picture now?
***THE BILL OF RIGHTS WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE A SUICIDE PACT***
Posted by: Ken Strong at September 25, 2006 12:48 AMall the while creating more who are willing to attack and terrorize.
This is like the Salem witch hunts, killing the innocent to see if they were guilty.
Posted by: mark at September 24, 2006 07:48 PM
Don’t you see mark? That’s exactly what it’s all about. Constantly creating more terrorists who resist constantly creates the need for endless war, which in turn means endless threat, endless fear, endless special circumstances which excuses “temporary” adjustments to constitutional rights. It’s a three card trick, keep the folks distracted while the sleight of hand tricksters get their hands in their pockets. That’s what it’s really all about. Money, and power. And keeping the citizens in a state of fear so that they will not question. And its working! Not enough people are questioning, and they’re probably going to win in Nov, and in 08. Who the hell is there who is getting through to the electorate to change things? Is there anyone?
Posted by: Paul in Euroland at September 25, 2006 04:19 AMTHE BILL OF RIGHTS WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE A SUICIDE PACT
So you mean that unless we give up our rights, we are committing suicide? Or that giving up our rights will keep us free? I don’t think the founding fathers meant for us to use the constitution just for special events.
College libraries are actually pretty comfy places. Have you ever been to one?
Posted by: Liberal Patriot at September 25, 2006 05:01 AMAfter watching John McCain on Face the Nation this weekend, I’ve decided how the Dems can beat him…He is the biggest pussy in America. He has no problem throwing out everything he stands for just to become GW’s lap dog, and hopefully they’ll let him become prez.
Posted by: Loren at September 25, 2006 05:40 AMWhy is it that when I look at the leadership of OUR country, I see a pack of miniature poodles… barking and shaking at the same time? … and someone put the Constitution underneath them in case they have an accident.
Posted by: tony at September 25, 2006 09:28 AMcombatant status
Combatants have protections under the Geneva Conventions, as well as obligations.
Convention I offers protections to wounded combatants, who are defined as members of the armed forces of a party to an international conflict, members of militias or volunteer corps including members of organized resistance movements as long as they have a well-defined chain of command, are clearly distinguishable from the civilian population, carry their arms openly, and obey the laws of war. (Convention I, Art. 13, Sec. 1 and Sec. 2
Can someone please tell me which of the above laws the insurgents in Iraq or any of these terrorist groups obey? By disobeying these rules, they forfeit all rights and protections of the Geneva Convention. Granting them any rights fundamentally undermines the Geneva Conventions by giving legitimacy to any group who violates these laws.
Lynne,
Since you are such the expert, please tell me what constitutes torture. Sleep deprivation? An open handed slap in the face or belly? Waterboarding? Being force-fed pork? The Geneva Conventions are vague, all Bush is trying to do is define torture so that we won’t do it while protecting our personell at the CIA who handle these interogations by giving them a clear-cut set of dos and don’ts.
Posted by: 1LT B at September 25, 2006 12:07 PMtony,
Awesome visual. I can’t decide if I like the imagry better as W being what the poodles leave on the paper or as W being some lilliputian trying to hide under the paper. Too bad it’s the Constitution; maybe I’ll picture it as a picture of Bushie and go with scenario 1?
By disobeying these rules, they forfeit all rights and protections of the Geneva Convention…please tell me what constitutes torture…Posted by: 1LT B at September 25, 2006 12:07 PM(a)Bull. Everyone gets equal protection under the law, even the law breakers. Otherwise there is no law. (b)So which interrogation technique would be OK to use on you? Posted by: Dave1-20-09 at September 25, 2006 12:25 PM
Jack,
So let’s do Geneva right. When we catch the terrorists hiding among civilians, let’s do the battlefield interogation (allowed by the convention) and them immediately execute them as spies and saboteurs.
Well, at least I agree it will be less hypocrital than re-interpreting signed international laws of war, indeed. Resigning the Convention is even a better non-hypocrital solution, too.
Problem, still, is the genuine civilians catched on a globalized battlefield and executed. They’ve rights. The same as yours. Because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time they lost them? Now that’s siding with fate rights, not human rights!
We did it to the Germans during the Battle of the Bulge. Seemed to be a good idea back then.
Skorzeny’s soldiers were wearing American uniforms and their german ones underneath, not civilian clothes. Never they were confused with civilians, aka non-combattants.
Does wearing civilian clothes in the wrong place at the wrong time an enough proof you’re a terrorist deserving instant execution these days???
Last but not least, the fact terrorists have no rules is not an enough argument to drop yours/ours. Plus, I’ll bet even terrorists have rules. Based on their own set of (radicalist) values.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866
CIA’s Harsh Interrogation Techniques Described
Sources say Agency’s Tactics Lead to Questionable Confessions, Sometimes to Death
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1356870
History of an Interrogation Technique: Water Boarding
Some quotes:
The water board technique dates back to the 1500s during the Italian Inquisition.
Current and former CIA officers tell ABC News that they were trained to handcuff the prisoner and cover his face with cellophane to enhance the distress. According to Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., himself a torture victim during the Vietnam War, the water board technique is a “very exquisite torture” that should be outlawed.
“Torture is defined under the federal criminal code as the intentional infliction of severe mental pain or suffering,” said John Sifton, an attorney and researcher with the organization Human Rights Watch. “That would include water boarding.”
On “Good Morning America” today, Goss told ABC News’ Charles Gibson that the CIA does not inflict pain on prisoners.
Yet, in response to Gibson’s inquiry if water boarding would come under the heading of torture, Goss simply replied, “I don’t know.”
Water boarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in Vietnam 40 years ago. A photograph that appeared in The Washington Post of a U.S. soldier involved in water boarding a North Vietnamese prisoner in 1968 led to that soldier’s severe punishment.
“The soldier who participated in water torture in January 1968 was court-martialed within one month after the photos appeared in The Washington Post, and he was drummed out of the Army,” recounted Darius Rejali, a political science professor at Reed College.
Earlier in 1901, the United States had taken a similar stand against water boarding during the Spanish-American War when an Army major was sentenced to 10 years of hard labor for water boarding an insurgent in the Philippines.Posted by: Adrienne at September 25, 2006 12:38 PM
1LT B,
Can someone please tell me which of the above laws the insurgents in Iraq or any of these terrorist groups obey?
None.
By disobeying these rules, they forfeit all rights and protections of the Geneva Convention. Granting them any rights fundamentally undermines the Geneva Conventions by giving legitimacy to any group who violates these laws.
Unfortunatly, granting NO rights to any civilian fundamentally undermines the Geneva Convention too, by suspecting every civilian to be a terrorist juts because terrorists are also civilians. By disobeying these rules protecting civilians, doesn’t US forfeit all rights and protections of the Geneva Convention?
No one yet has explained to any real satisfaction, other than their own fears, why the U.S. should abrogate its laws and its treaties to behave in ways that the U.S. has firmly condemned when other countries do when it comes to torture.
Guess none of these upholders of torture ever had their Mom tell them “I don’t care if everyone else is doing it, you’re NOT going to do it!”…that old saw about “would you jump off the bridge if they jumped off?” also comes to mind…
Fear is so ingrained in certain Americans and our government is playing to fear, not to our best instincts, to the common good, nor to our laws.
Posted by: Lynne at September 25, 2006 01:45 PM1 LT B:
What doesn’t constitute torture in your humble opinion? Waterboarding? Imprisonment without hope of being charged with a crime and having a trial? Bombing civilians knowingly? Rape?
I believe that you are the one who needs to define torture…I know what torture is and I would hazard a guess if you were tortured you’d know what it is, too.
Posted by: Lynne at September 25, 2006 01:48 PMall Bush is trying to do is define torture so that we won’t do it while protecting our personell at the CIA who handle these interogations by giving them a clear-cut set of dos and don’ts.
Right…and he has no ulterior motives for making his actions retroactively off limits to his being brought before the International Criminal Court, either.
Bush has said that HE not the Supreme Court is the one who will tell us whether or not actions are constitutional…yup…he was was rejected by the U of Texas Law School, he who has no law degree nor passage of the bar exam nor any right to practice law in any state of the US…
The CIA knows what torture is and is not…and it is pretty clear that they knowing engage in torture…why else would Cheney, when McCain promoted his anti-torture law, want the CIA to be exempted from it???
Posted by: Lynne at September 25, 2006 01:52 PMI’m ashamed of the leadership in this country.
What leadership? We have a complete and totally absent vacuum of leadership in the Executive branch and in the Legislative branch of our federal government…even the 3 Republicans who stood up to Bush regarding torture have now wimped out…Bush seems more like a Mafia don than a president…he has the power/information to bring strong men to their knees to play ball (pun intented) with him…
It’s time someone stands up and becomes a real leader in the U.S. … it may mean political suicide or very real martyrdom, but it’s exactly what this nation needs to keep from total derailment of our ideals and our Constitution.
Posted by: Lynne at September 25, 2006 01:57 PMLynn
As with torture, fear is in the eye of the beholder.
So why do you fear Bush?
He did not start the war on drugs, the war on guns, or the war on religion and he definetly did not start “renditioning.”
ALL of these issues are instances where our govt has used the fear of the people to pass questionable laws or to strip rights from the people.
Its been going on for a while now, but you have chosen to fear just one man and one party, President Bush and the Republicans. Why?
“Contrary to hackneyed sayings, there are rules to war. Not wearing a uniform, not flying a flag, not properly identifying yourself”
You don’t think we send in ununiformed guys into places before during and after military incursions? We had guys in Afghanistan dressed as locals, making deals and doing recon. Should we, under your logic, assume they’ve relinquished their human rights if captured and not take offense if they’re tortured or indefinitely detained?
Posted by: Observer at September 25, 2006 02:36 PM“Its been going on for a while now, but you have chosen to fear just one man and one party, President Bush and the Republicans. Why?”
The level of abuse,
The frequency of abuse,
The arrogant, indignant replies when questioned,
ie: anyone who questions me “just doesn’t get it”.
Funny you mentioned the “war” on drugs. I think the war on “terror”, as it’s being waged, will be about as succesfull as the war on drugs has been. Taking out Al Queada’s “#2 guy” for the 10th time rings just like when we claim to have taken out the #2 drug lord in Columbia. Another springs up the next day to take his place.
I think you’ll find that the key to reducing terrorism can be accomplished in a similar way to reducing drug use. Education, expanded economic opportunities, fair treatment in society, fair justice. The only way your going to reduce terrorism, or drug use,is to take away the motivation. Were doing the opposite on both fronts.
So basically, this is just a replay of the 90’s, right? Half the voters felt just as you posted above and the other half of the voters didn’t pay attention to their concerns.
“The only way your going to reduce terrorism, or drug use,is to take away the motivation”
We have been doing the opposite on the drug front for decades. Drugs are a personal matter and the govt has no business being in it.
Terrorists are a different matter. They have been around for many years. We have just now decided to fight back instead of letting them bully us.
Our opinions differ on terrorists. I prefer to just kill them all and you want to understand them. Truth is, neither of is totally wrong.
kctim,
Its been going on for a while now, but you have chosen to fear just one man and one party, President Bush and the Republicans. Why?
Why, you ask? For the damage on US values and US’s foreign policy they did, does and, sadly, will continue to do in the future, no doubt.
You didn’t read this column since 5 years or what?!?
Oh, I’ve been reading these columns Philippe.
You see, over here, about half the American voters were warning and screaming about abuse of power, corruption and our rights for much of the previous years before Bush. They were ignored by the other half of the voters. Its the exact opposite today. The ones ignoring are now the ones complaining and vice versa.
What good does it do to complain about one President authorizing “torture” but then not say a word when the President you support does it a few years later?
What good does it do to act like one President is the first to ever do this?
What good does it do this country, if people are so willing to let the rights they don’t care about be taken from them?
You know, it was widely said that if we let the govt use fear to take our guns, then govt will use fear to take our other rights.
Together, we could have won.
Divided we have fallen and will continue to.
Oh, and regarding US values, I too worry about those.
As far as worrying about what the rest of the world thinks of us, I could give a rats ass about that.
Lynne, In response to your post from yesterday at 7:42 p.m. Read the definition of combatant as described by the Geneva conventions(below)
These are not P.O.W’s they are WAR CRIMINALS and they should be treated as such!
President Bush is fighting to protect this nation and all our brave G.I’s at war .So I dont get why you Dems and Libs are trying so hard to protect these rats. and don’t give me that moral high ground B.S. If we dont take care of this scourge BY ANY MEANS NECCESARY there will be no
“high ground” These people have declared war on us and the sooner we stop bickering amongst eachother the sooner we can get down to business
BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE!!!!!!!!
DEFINITION BELOW;
Convention I offers protections to combatants, who are defined as members of the armed forces of a party to an international conflict, members of militias or volunteer corps including members of organized resistance movements as long as they have a well-defined chain of command, are clearly distinguishable from the civilian population, carry their arms openly, and obey the laws of war. (Convention I, Art. 13, Sec. 1 and Sec. 2)
Posted by: desert beef at September 25, 2006 05:11 PMdesert beef:
There’s a difference in calling someone as an enemy combatant and them actually being one…I no longer trust my country to be reliable signatories to any treaties…Bush has already backed out of two of them and has rendered the Geneva Conventions null…
Posted by: Lynne at September 25, 2006 06:02 PMkctim:
I don’t “fear” Bush…I fear what he is doing to our great country…in case you haven’t noticed, the president is not co-existent with the country…I do not like seeing all the ideals and values upon which our Constitution is predicated just nullified on the whims of a scarred personality or two.
Those who have fear are the ones who let Bush bully them into actually believing his lies and believing that the terrorists, like the boogeyman, will “get” them…
FDR said the only thing we have to fear is fear itself…so why does Bush use this as his sole motivation for everything??? Bush is the one who is full of fear (probably all those years of his mommy Babs threatening “just wait until your father gets home!”) and who uses it to keep the sheep in line…
I refuse to be a sheep…I will do whatever I am able to uphold the law of our country…including its Constitution (which, by the way, is NOT just a goddamned piece of paper like your idiot president says) and the treaties to which it is a signatory.
Torture is wrong…it is wrong morally and legally…and yet you people are so scared and so fearful you’d let others (including many innocents) be killed and tortured in your name … be a man, be a woman … stop being a wimp.
You can split legal hairs all you want, but torture is and will always be morally wrong…and you know that in the depth of your soul (if you still have one)…so does every person in this country.
Posted by: Lynne at September 25, 2006 06:09 PMWe have to take the high ground or we become the very thing that we are fighting, We become just like them. If we do as or enemy then they just use that to recruit more people to there cause. In the america I belive in we hold ourselfs to a higer standerd then our enemy. We did in past conflicts and we have to now.
Posted by: Jeff at September 25, 2006 06:14 PM“As far as worrying about what the rest of the world thinks of us, I could give a rats ass about that.”
I realize you guys love saying this, but really, it just makes you sound stupid and naive. YES, we DO need the rest of the world on our side. At least as many as possible. We wouldn’t have won the Cold War without the help and support and admiration of most of the free world.
To think we can go it alone is just daft.
Rowan and Linda H.
I understood what you meant, but their had been so much focus on the “Republican Revolt” that it quite literally makes me sick. It’s all a bunch of BS. There is no longer even a “thin line” between the old school Republicans and the Neo-Cons.
Please excuse the foulness of this comment, but when I was going thru college I worked part time at a chicken processing company and the big joke was, ” What’s the white stuff in chicken shit”! The answer was “more chicken shit”.
That’s now the difference between the Republicans and the Neo-Cons, it’s all just the same old crap. And I don’t understand why any of us should be surprised now. The Republicans are obviously happy as skunks to turn the USA into a repressive nation that will accept torture as a common practice.
My grandfather served as a medic in WWI and my Dad served in the Army Air Corps in WWII and I expect they’re both turning over in their graves right now. We, as a nation, have lost our moral compass and the Republicans just keep leading us down the path to corruption and destruction.
Every time we allow ourselves to be fooled by some Republican “side-show” we’re aiding them in obtaining that outcome.
KansasDem
PS: Linda, Rowan is a woman. I made that mistake once, but I think she doesn’t mind much as long as we recognize her as an American.
Kctim:
“What good does it do to complain about one President authorizing torture but then not say a word when the President you support does it a few years later?
What good does it do to act like one President is the first to ever do this?”
You know just one day, just one day in my life time, from now on, Id like just once, Id give about anything, for people on the right to stop lying about Clinton.
OK, YOU HATE HIM…..WE FRICKEN GET IT!!!!!
Now, stop lying. Just stop it! You are making an azz out of yourself!
Clinton never tortured anyone, nor did he condone it, nor did he authorize it, nor did he encourage it, nor did he believe in it, nor did he support it.
As a matter of fact the only, O N L Y, President to ever, not only condone it, authorize it, encourage it, support it, believe in it, try to hide it, excuse it, but, also try to absolve himself, (and his hirelings) from it, is:
GEORGE W. BUSH
NO OTHER PRESIDENT HAS DONE IT. NONE, NOT ONE BLOODY PRESIDENT, UNTIL NOW!!
The United States of America signed the Genieva Convention over 50 years ago.
NOT 1 PRESIDENT HAS VIOLATED IT….UNTIL NOW!!!
If all you can offer here, is just a pack of lies, and another Clinton smear job, then you just ott to stiffle it.
And, for your information last week there was a woman arrested in California, she is 83 years old. She was deported to another country for trial for “war cimes”, in Germany, that she committed during the 1940s. She was a guard at a womans death camp in Germany, in charge of the womans barracks. During her rain some 10,000 woman died there. This woman was in charge of the dogs at the camp and in charge of “interrogations”.
(3-5 prisoners have died at Abu Grabe, during our occupation — by dogs)
SO MR. BUSH, YOU CAN NOT RUN, YOU CAN NOT HIDE, AND THERE IS NO TIME LIMIT - ON “WAR CRIMES” !!!
Posted by: PlayNice at September 25, 2006 11:17 PMdesert beef ,
“These are not P.O.W’s they are WAR CRIMINALS and they should be treated as such!”
CRIMINALS, REALLY?
OK, when was their trial?
Were they allowed representation or a defense?
What was their sentance?
What were they found guilty of?
Was their guilt only established by way of a confession abtained by “torture”?
Because if that was the only evidence, it wont hold up, in a court of law.
No court of law? No due process?
Then why do you advocate holding people, torturing them, and denying them due process?
Is daddy Bush, (you higher power) the only “word” you need, to convict someone?
If so, you might find a place to hide right now.
Are those gastapo boots I hear?
They may be comming for you!!!
“As far as worrying about what the rest of the world thinks of us, I could give a rats ass about that.”
Hi Neighbor,
I see observor already hit you on this but “really”, do you think that the USA is so all powerful that we can just rule the world? If we can then why are things going to shit all over the place.
Reagan is praised for ending Soviet Communism. Did he? How wise was his foreign diplomacy? How did he respond to the Marine Barracks bombing in Beirut? How about Iran-Contra? Look at Putin now!
We celebrated the quick overtrow of the Tailban in Afghanistan but where are we now? More and more reports keep pressing the point that our military is seriously overextended.
Bush and Co. are rattling the war sabers with Iran. Gary Hart predicts an October surprise where Bush will order the destruction of all Iranian military infrastructure and potential “nukular” development sites.
And somehow you seem to think that a “World Wide View” means nothing? Your logic, or lack thereof, simply astonishes me.
Please enlighten me!
KansasDem
Play Nice,
Good posts friend! Keep up the good work.
KansasDem
Posted by: KansasDem at September 26, 2006 12:09 AMkctim,
What good does it do this country, if people are so willing to let the rights they don’t care about be taken from them?
Indeed. Some value more liberty than security, some the reverse. From France, US was until recently this great nation of liberty (from free speech to individual capitalism). That was a model I liked.
Unfortunatly, US is becoming more and more this nation of security before everything. Securing americans lives at any price, up to eventually torture some innocents. Securing energy sources at any price, up to forge a smoke screen WMDs and other imminent and dramatic threats everywhere energy are spotted at risk.
US become energy-oolic and security-oolic.
Not anymore a great nation in my mind. Not a likable model.
You know, it was widely said that if we let the govt use fear to take our guns, then govt will use fear to take our other rights.
Together, we could have won. Divided we have fallen and will continue to.
Isn’t the charge of the President to take his people united? Afterall, he’s supposed to represent the will of all americans, not only the ones who voted for him (or the Supreme Court judges who ruled him the President for that matter). If a president and/or its government is the dividing factor, usually he resign.
In democracies.
Good leaders knows when they’re wrong. The best ones assumes it openly.
Oh, and regarding US values, I too worry about those.
Me too. Not for the same reasons and not the same set of values, though.
As far as worrying about what the rest of the world thinks of us, I could give a rats ass about that.
Then stop being shocked (Chavez bashing Bush! Oh My God!!!) like an old lady that the rest of the world give US the finger more and more.
And there about 12 billions of fingers non-americans could raise toward US. And i’m not talking metaphorically only here. Economically too. On the long term.
Check this: http://www.businessfordiplomaticaction.org/
And, finally, as I’m not american but french, indeed “together we could have won” but “divided we have fallen and will continue”. Ask yourself who actually “gave a rat ass about” the rest of the world opinions in the last 5 years and who from the rest of the world tried to warn the US about these division and flawed policies risks?
Yeah, I stand with the “We told you so” attitude.
To do something together, you have first to listen to others. In foreign policy terms, it means NOT give a rat ass to the rest of the world. You don’t want, okay, now don’t cry you’re alone trying to fix the mess you did. Alone.
Playnice and Lynne……..
I see you are unable to think rationally and you miss my point COMPLETEY!!!!!!
And whoever wrote that Bill Clinton didn’t condone torture is WRONG He tortured this country for eight years !It’s torture to look at him and listen to his LIES
As far as War criminals It’s perfectly legal to hold them untill hostilities come to an end But I’m sure you believe that they are just innocent bystanders who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. PROTECT AMERICA NOT TERRORISTS.
I’m sure The men at Fallujah and our GI’s that were mutilated would have liked to be held as enemy combatants or even as war criminals But they never got that chance because the men you believe should be coddled cut their heads off and dragged or burned their bodies not to mention all the innocents they’ve tortured and killed again I say we need to wipe these rats out BY ANY MEANS NECCESARY!!!!!!!!!
Have a nice day!
Phillipe,
You make a point but I think you misunderstood me. We have plenty of people that we have captured either in Afghanistan or Iraq who were shooting at us or planting IEDs or a variety of other attacks against our personell. In my opinion, they are war criminals and should be subject to summary execution. I’m not talking about just shooting civilians, but if you attack our forces, you are no longer a civilian, you’re a combatant. If you do so without meeting the criterion above (wearing a uniform, having a chain of command, wearing arms openly, obeying the laws of war) you are an illegal combatant and subject to summary judgement and liable for execution.
Observer,
Regarding your question about our SF guys, from what I’ve heard, the SF guys etc in Afghanistan did indeed violate the Rules of War by not wearing uniforms, though they did carry their dog tags and military id. When told of this, their response was a brilliant example of obeying the letter of the law, if not the spirit. Most sewed American flags into their armpits, technically making them legal while not making their American identification obvious. Either way, they would probably be liable for summary execution as spies (military personel who infiltrate enemy areas in civilian clothing is the military definition), but I’m sure they recognize that this is but one and probably not the most severe danger they face in the execution of their missions.
Lynne,
The fact that we’re both asking what torture is demostrates why Bush was right to have it defined. For my part, I would draw the line at acts that can cause permenant mental or physical disability. Again, I don’t believe that the al Qaeda or Iraqi insurgent forces are entitled to these protections as they are, in my opinion, illegal combatants anyway. Also, I certainly hope when you were talking about bombing civilians you were talking about the insurgents and not the US military, we don’t do that.
Playnice,
For someone who frets about the Gestapo, you show a crazy sense of bravery. If America was anything like the police state you describe, you’d have been carted away long ago. Do you really believe all of this nonsense? The fact that you post to a public site through an internet that’s traceable leads me to doubt it.
Posted by: 1LT B at September 26, 2006 08:28 AMLynne
Thank you, nice of you to explain your concerns.
“You can split legal hairs all you want, but torture is and will always be morally wrong…and you know that in the depth of your soul (if you still have one)”
Torture to you is not torture to others, its not that hard.
Oh, and about my soul? I don’t have one so…..
Observer
“We wouldn’t have won the Cold War without the help and support and admiration of most of the free world”
Its not a go at it alone attitude. We need the help and support of other countries, we do not need their admiration.
Posted by: kctim at September 26, 2006 09:09 AMPlaynice
“NO OTHER PRESIDENT HAS DONE IT. NONE, NOT ONE BLOODY PRESIDENT, UNTIL NOW!!”
You really need to drop the blind partisan crap.
First of all, please read my quote you copied again, with an open mind:
—-“What good does it do to complain about one President authorizing torture but then not say a word when the President you support does it a few years later?—-
The right complained about “renditioning” and clintons support of it in the 90’s.
—-“What good does it do to act like one President is the first to ever do this?‎—-
Read up on “renditioning” some ok. I did not mention names because it goes beyond your party line crap.
You really need to quit being so afraid of the evil Republican govt and start worrying about govt in general.
Alot more will get done then at least.
1LT B,
You make a point but I think you misunderstood me. We have plenty of people that we have captured either in Afghanistan or Iraq who were shooting at us or planting IEDs or a variety of other attacks against our personell. In my opinion, they are war criminals and should be subject to summary execution. I’m not talking about just shooting civilians, but if you attack our forces, you are no longer a civilian, you’re a combatant. If you do so without meeting the criterion above (wearing a uniform, having a chain of command, wearing arms openly, obeying the laws of war) you are an illegal combatant and subject to summary judgement and liable for execution.
Then why these detainees were not executed since their capture? What’s the whole point about Gitmo?
What’s retaining Bush to pull the trigger? Human Rights? Or the tentation to use torture on them?
Sorry, not the tentation to use. The usage.
You do understand than if you, yes you 1LT B, happened to be captured by insurgents, instead of eventually die quickly beheaded, they will be tempted before to torture you. Just because US do it too. Not for intelligence. Militias in Iraq already do that AFAIK, why not on US soldier?
Even if US didn’t actually do torture (yet), the simple fact Bush just made laws ammendments relaxing torture ban is a wide political hot spot in world eyes, and an enough one for such backslap.
Plus, whatever its legal status, torturing is *morally* wrong. Doesn’t US moral ground matter to you?
Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at September 26, 2006 09:29 AMKDem
As I said to Observer, we do not need the world’s admiration or approval. I do not care about hurting their feelings or doing something they do not like. But that does not mean I believe we don’t need their respect.
I am tired of how the US must always be on egg shells trying to “understand” the world. It is time the world starts offering US the same understanding in return.
“If we can then why are things going to shit all over the place.”
Because that is all you guys care about. If a nuke goes off in a city and only ten people die, you guys would still be blaming the Reps for letting them die or for actually killing them themselves. Its grown old.
“We celebrated the quick overtrow of the Tailban in Afghanistan but where are we now? More and more reports keep pressing the point that our military is seriously overextended.”
Of course the only the negative reports are coming out, its election season.
“Bush and Co. are rattling the war sabers with Iran. Gary Hart predicts an October surprise where Bush will order the destruction of all Iranian military infrastructure and potential “nukular‎ development sites.”
Should we give them, lets say, 12 years?
You see it as a Republican conspiracy, I see it as something larger than petty partisanship politics.
“And somehow you seem to think that a “World Wide View‎ means nothing?”
TO ME, it means nothing. I put the lives of my fellow Americans over that of anybody else.
“Your logic, or lack thereof, simply astonishes me.”
It astonishes my wife also. She too worries more about what others think while I worry about doing whats best for my own family.
Posted by: kctim at September 26, 2006 09:36 AMPhilipe
“Not anymore a great nation in my mind. Not a likable model.”
I don’t understand why. We are becoming less of a Constitutional Republic and more like a European country every year.
“Isn’t the charge of the President to take his people united? Afterall, he’s supposed to represent the will of all americans, not only the ones who voted for him (or the Supreme Court judges who ruled him the President for that matter). If a president and/or its government is the dividing factor, usually he resign.
In democracies.”
That is very true. And if he doesn’t resign, he and his party is voted out of power, like they were in 94, 2000 and 2004.
“Good leaders knows when they’re wrong. The best ones assumes it openly.”
Not when being a “good leader” is dependent on which party the leader belongs too.
“Me too. Not for the same reasons and not the same set of values, though.”
Obviously.
“Then stop being shocked (Chavez bashing Bush! Oh My God!!!) like an old lady that the rest of the world give US the finger more and more.”
Um, I’m not shocked nor do I care what Chavez says.
I think what most people have a problem with is that some Americans would rather agree or support Chavez over their own President.
“And there about 12 billions of fingers non-americans could raise toward US. And i’m not talking metaphorically only here. Economically too. On the long term.”
Yes, billions of non-American fingers pointing at us, criticizing us and wishing us ill will. While their other hand is wide open wanting more American money.
“Ask yourself who actually “gave a rat ass about‎ the rest of the world opinions in the last 5 years and who from the rest of the world tried to warn the US about these division and flawed policies risks?”
Yes, you all hate our policies but you love our money. I get it.
“You don’t want, okay, now don’t cry you’re alone trying to fix the mess you did. Alone.”
I wouldn’t one bit. My only wish would be that if we are to fix “our” mess, alone as you say, then that should mean everything. No more technology, no more handouts and no more American lives. Is that what the rest of the world wants? Wouldnt it be easier to just give the US the same respect and understanding that you demand we give you?
Posted by: kctim at September 26, 2006 09:51 AMOK, kctim, please describe 3 acts of torture which would be acceptable to everyone in the U.S….
Posted by: Lynne at September 26, 2006 10:19 AMLynne, it really does depend on what one considers torture.
Sleep deprivation is torture to some, to me its not.
Same with subjecting prisoners to extreme temps.
Modern day waterboarding may be torture to some and others may believe it worthy if it gets intel.
There is no way “everyone” in the US would view them in the same way. Which gives credence in trying to define what may constitute torture.
When the left wins in 06 and 08, they will not redefine “torture” in a way that makes everybody happy. Think we will still hear lefty’s talking about how evil our torture is? No way.
Phillipe,
These detainees weren’t executed because of the whining of the world about how we need to give them rights to which they are not and never have been entitled. I understand perfectly well that if I am ever captured that I will be tortured. They have been using torture over here long before America ever became involved. Further, Soldiers here have already been tortured, such as the two who were taken from their post and later found mutilated.
As far as the moral perspective goes, I find it moral to use whatever means necessary to defend the lives of my fellow Soldiers, our allies, and the citizens of the United States. Pretend, just for a moment, that the French intelligence service captures an al Qaeda operative who knows the location of a dirty bomb in Paris. I grant that this is not an actual circumstance, but bear with me. Do you think that Chirac would hesitate for an instant to use torture to get the bomb’s location in the hopes of defusing it? If you do, you should try to get him out of office. I have no moral qualms about using torture to save lives. Let’s remember that these a-holes chose the course of their lives, not us. If we have to fuck them up to prevent even one of our own people from dying, that’s a price I’m more than willing to accept.